如何与人交谈：社区的基础架构

好的。那么如果

Okay. So what if

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我认为我在公共空间，尤其是在我社区里观察到的，真的只是一种熙熙攘攘，人们去某个特定的地方，与特定的人做特定的事情。他们有点像在执行任务。对吧？

I think what I've observed in public spaces, especially in my neighborhood, is really just a hustle and a bustle, and people are going somewhere specific to do something specific with specific people. They're sort of on a mission. Right?

效率是社交生活的敌人。什么样的地方能让我们比今天更享受生活、更享受彼此的陪伴？

Efficiency is the enemy of social life. What kind of place would allow us to enjoy our lives and enjoy each other more than we do today?

你知道，人们常说，痛苦喜欢有伴。我只是觉得这不是真的。我认为痛苦在很多方面需要陪伴。它需要亲情。它需要社区，这样你就不会在痛苦中孤立无援。

You know, people say, like, misery loves company. I just I don't think that is true. I think that misery in a lot of ways requires company. It requires kinship. It requires community so that you are not isolated in your pain.

你知道，我们需要围绕哪些事情来重新调整我们的社会？

You know, what kinds of things would we need to reorient our society around?

我是朱莉·贝克，《大西洋月刊》的高级编辑。

I'm Julie Beck, a senior editor at The Atlantic.

我是贝卡·拉希德，《How To》系列的制作人。

And I'm Becca Rashid, producer of the How To Series.

这是《如何与人交谈》。

This is How To Talk to people.

虽然我通常不会在咖啡馆交朋友，但最近有个女孩在用笔记本电脑工作。她注意到我也在。我们开始闲聊起来。在咖啡馆多次偶遇几周后，她昨天终于有点尴尬地问道，嘿，你介意给我你的号码吗？也许我们可以一起喝一杯？

Though I normally am not making a friend at the cafe, recently, there was a girl that was working on her laptop. She noticed I was too. We started chitting and chatting. And after a few weeks of running into each other so many times at the cafe, she finally, slightly awkwardly asked yesterday, hey. Do you mind if I get your number if you maybe wanted to get a drink?

这是一种非常友好、甜蜜的方式，克服了尴尬，直接索要联系方式。所以这很勇敢。即便如此，我能感觉到有人在观察我们的互动，好像在说，那里发生了什么？有两个陌生人在这张桌子旁开始聊天。这是因为，显然，这个空间并不是为建立新关系而设计的。

Very friendly, sweet sort of way of fighting through the awkward and just asking for the contact info. So it was bold. Even then, I could tell that people were sort of observing interaction and being like, what's happening there? There are two strangers who just sort of started chatting at this table. And it's because, obviously, the space is not designed for the formation of new relationships.

更像是我们都在这里，在我们的社区里做自己的事。

It's more so just we're all here doing our thing in our neighborhood.

是的，是的。就是这样。这很难，因为当然，人们确实会在咖啡馆建立联系，就像你刚才那样。

Yeah. Yeah. It's that's the thing. It's hard because, of course, like, people do connect at cafes like you literally just did.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且，你知道，在巴黎或其他地方，他们可能很乐意让人们整天逗留聊天。但我认为在这些空间里发生的连接，那并不是空间的目的。那是一个副产品。也许是一个受欢迎的副产品，但空间的重点是赚钱。重点是向你销售东西。

And, you know, in Paris or whatever, they may be happy for people to linger and chat all day. But I think the connection that's happening in those spaces, like, that's not the purpose of the space. That's a byproduct. Perhaps a welcome byproduct, but like the point of the space is to make money. The point is to sell you something.

这是一门生意。他们在卖给你咖啡，卖给你三明治。华盛顿特区有几家我很喜欢的咖啡馆，它们根本不提供WiFi，或者在你购买东西后给你一张票，让你有几个小时的WiFi使用权。我理解他们为什么这样做，因为他们希望顾客循环流动，不希望人们整天占着桌子，而他们本可以迎来新的付费顾客。

It's a business. They're selling you a coffee. They're selling you a sandwich. There's several cafes in DC that I really like that just don't offer WiFi or they give you a ticket where you have a, like, a couple of hours of WiFi after you buy something. And I get why they're doing that because they want the customers to cycle through and they don't want people taking up tables all day when, you know, they could get a fresh paying customer in there.

这可能是很好的商业意识。但如果这些是你唯一可以混在一起、认识邻里的人的空间，那么这些空间在哪里？哪里是你可以进行友好社交的空间？这就是重点。埃里克·克莱南伯格是一位研究人员，他对我们一直在讨论的所有这些问题非常感兴趣。

That may well be good business sense. But if those are the only spaces that you have to maybe just mingle and get to know people that are in your neighborhood, where are the spaces? What are the spaces where you can just have friendly mingling? And that's the point. Eric Kleinenberg is a researcher who's really into all of these questions that we've been talking about.

他是纽约大学的社会学教授，也是城市基础设施和城市生活方面的专家。他写了一本名为《人民的宫殿》的书，在书中他谈到了一个叫做“社会基础设施”的概念。这本质上是指向公众开放的物理空间，旨在促进这些社会联系。

He's a professor of sociology at New York University, and he's an expert on city infrastructure and urban life. He wrote this book called Palaces for the People in which he talks about this concept called social infrastructure. That is essentially the physical spaces that are available to the public that are designed to facilitate these social connections.

如果你想有一个交通系统，比如火车，你需要一个基础设施来承载火车。对吧？例如铁轨。

If you wanna have a transit system, like a train, you need an infrastructure to carry the train. Right? The the rails, for instance.

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有一种支持社会生活的基础设施。社会基础设施。当我说社会基础设施时，我指的是物理场所。它们可以是组织，也可以是公园。

There's also an infrastructure that supports social life. Social infrastructure. And when I say social infrastructure, I'm referring to physical places. They can be organizations. It could also be parks.

塑造我们互动能力的物理场所。当社会基础设施完善时，人们倾向于走出家门、驻足停留。如果你住在社会基础设施健全的贫困社区，如果你是年长者、身体更虚弱或非常年幼，你可能会花更多时间坐在家门口的台阶上。你的街道上可能有张长椅让你休憩，也可能有家你每天光顾的小餐馆。

Physical places that shape our capacity to interact. When you have strong social infrastructure, people have a tendency to come out and linger. And if you live in a poor neighborhood, where the social infrastructure is strong, if you're older, if you're more frail, if you're very young, you might spend more time, you know, sitting on the stoop in front of your home. You might have a bench that you spend time on that's on your street. There might be a diner where you go every day.

这意味着，会有一些人习惯定期在这些公共场所见到你。当外界变得危险时，可能会有人注意到你不在那里。

And what that means is, there are people who are used to seeing you out in those public places on a regular basis. And when it's dangerous outside, someone might notice that you're not there.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们甚至可能不知道你的名字。可能只是认得你的脸。也许知道你的住处。大家都习惯在公共领域看到彼此。我在芝加哥长大。

And they might not even know your name. They might just know your face. Maybe they know where you live. They're used to seeing each other in the public realm. I grew up in Chicago.

1995年，就在我即将开始社会学研究生学业前，我的家乡遭遇了一场热浪。虽然只持续了几天，但气温极其极端，达到了约106华氏度（约41摄氏度）。芝加哥像往常应对热浪一样，到处开启空调，导致电网不堪重负，很快数千户家庭就断电了。

And in 1995, just before I was about to start graduate school in sociology, there was a heat wave that hit my hometown. Lasted just a couple of days, but the temperatures were quite extreme. It got to about a 106 degrees. Chicago did what it always does when there's a heat wave. It turned on air conditioning everywhere you could go, and the power grid got overwhelmed, and very soon the, you know, electricity went out for thousands of homes.

在这个七月的周末结束时，芝加哥因高温导致的死亡人数超过七百人。

At the end of this week in July, Chicago had more than seven hundred deaths from the heat.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，那时还是疫情前时代，所以一个城市在几天内有人死亡看起来是件非同寻常的事。我们那时还没对此麻木。嗯。我很好奇发生了什么。我做的第一件事就是绘制这些地图，看看芝加哥哪些人和地区受影响最严重。

And this was, you know, the pre pandemic time, so people dying in a city in a couple of days seemed like an exceptional thing. We hadn't gotten numb to it yet. Mhmm. I was really curious about what had happened. And the first thing I did is I I made these maps to see which people and places in Chicago were hit hardest.

嗯。

Mhmm.

乍看之下，地图看起来完全如你所料。受影响最严重的社区位于芝加哥的南区和西区。这些是历史上被隔离的、黑人聚居的、贫困的贫民区社区。

And at first blush, the map looked exactly like you would expect it to look. The neighborhoods that were hit the hardest were on the South Side and the West Side Of Chicago. They were the, you know, historically segregated, black, poor, ghettoized neighborhoods.

没错。芝加哥的种族隔离非常严重。

Right. Chicago's extremely segregated.

当灾难发生时，你知道，生活在隔离社区的穷人处境会最糟糕。

And when there's a disaster, you know, poor people living in segregated neighborhoods will fare the worst.

嗯。

Mhmm.

于是我更仔细地查看了地图，注意到了一些别人没发现的情况：有一批社区紧邻芝加哥死亡率最高的地区，但这批地方最终却异常健康。

So I looked a little more closely at the map, and I noticed something that no one else had seen, which is that there were a bunch of neighborhoods that were located right next to places that were among the deadliest neighborhoods in Chicago, but this other set of places wound up being extraordinarily healthy.

所以这些社区在地理位置上非常接近，并且共享许多特征，但它们的结果却截然不同。

So these were neighborhoods that were geographically really close to each other and shared a lot of characteristics, but they were having really different outcomes.

匹配的社区。想象一下，两个社区仅一街之隔，贫困程度相同，老年人比例也相同。我们通常关注的风险因素是相等的，嗯。但在这场热浪灾害中，它们的结果却天差地别。这就是社会科学家梦寐以求的那种谜题。

Matching neighborhoods. Like, imagine two neighborhoods separated by one street, same level of poverty, same proportion of older people. The risk factors that we ordinarily look for were equal Mhmm. But they had wildly disparate outcomes in this heat disaster. So that's the kind of puzzle that you live for when you're a social scientist.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此，我观察到死亡率极高的社区看起来资源枯竭。在热浪发生前的几十年里，它们失去了大量人口。那里有许多废弃建筑、空地，人行道破损，缺乏资源雄厚的强大社区组织来开展有效的行动。就连小小的游乐场也状况糟糕，维护不善。而街对面表现较好的社区，公共空间则更为活跃。

And so, what I observed is that the neighborhoods that had really high death rates, they looked depleted. They had lost enormous proportion of their population in the decades leading up to the heat wave. They had a lot of abandoned buildings, they had empty lots, the sidewalks were broken, they didn't have a lot of strong community organizations that had resources to, you know, put up impressive operations. Even the little, like, playgrounds were in were in terrible shape, not well maintained. And across the street, in the neighborhoods that did better, the public spaces were much more viable.

那里没有废弃房屋，没有空地。有社区机构，比如杂货店、咖啡馆、图书馆分馆，这些地方支撑着公共生活。在芝加哥的那些社区，人们会敲门互相关照。因此，如果你住在这样一个拥有强大社会基础设施的贫困社区，你更有可能在热浪中幸存下来。而街对面那个资源枯竭的社区，居民在热浪中死亡的可能性要高出10倍。

They didn't have abandoned homes, they didn't have empty lots. There were community institutions, you know, grocery shops, coffee shops, a branch library, places that anchored public life. In those neighborhoods in Chicago, people knocked on the door, and they checked in on each other. And as a consequence, if you lived in one of these poor neighborhoods that had a strong social infrastructure, you were more likely to survive the heat wave. People in the neighborhood across the street, the depleted neighborhood, they were 10 times more likely to die in the heat wave.

这种差异确实非常显著。

And that difference was was really quite stark.

所以你说，当我们谈论常规基础设施时，我们指的是承载火车的东西，对吧？那么，是什么承载着我们人际关系的列车？实际的铁轨又是什么？

So you said, when we talk about regular infrastructure, we're talking about what carries the train. Right? So what carries the train of our relationships? What are the actual railroad tracks?

以游乐场为例。我们知道，家庭在社区里结识其他家庭的核心场所之一就是游乐场。当父母、祖父母或各类看护者推着秋千、寻找同伴交谈时，各种社交活动就此展开。秋千架旁的对话往往发展为长椅上的共同小憩，或是野餐聚会，继而促成玩耍约会，两个家庭逐渐熟识，社区关系得以生长。如果美国城市撤除所有游乐场，社交生活将发生根本性改变。

Think about a playground, for instance. We know that one of the core places that families go to meet other families in their neighborhood is a playground. There's all kinds of socializing that happens when, parents or grandparents or caretakers of all kinds are are pushing a swing and looking for a companion, someone to talk to. Those conversations at the swing set often lead to a shared little break together on the bench, or maybe to a picnic, and then a play date, and then two families getting to know each other, and communities growing. If you took playgrounds out of American cities, and suddenly there's no playground, our social lives would be radically different.

再想象撤除我们的学校、动物园、博物馆、图书馆。逐步地，我们将侵蚀共享空间和相互交往的能力。过去几十年美国虽未实施拆除公共空间的计划，但许多地方并未对其更新改造或新建。嗯。你可以建立非常排他的社会基础设施，这同样会导致社会分裂与信任缺失。

Now, take away our schools, take away our zoos, our museums, our libraries. Piece by piece, you know, we would erode our capacity to share space and engage one another. And we haven't exactly had a demolition plan to get rid of shared public spaces in America over the last several decades, but in a lot of places, we haven't done much to update them, or improve them, or build new ones. Mhmm. You can build a social infrastructure that's very exclusive, and that also leads to fragmentation and distrust.

例如乡村俱乐部——这是惊人的社会基础设施，堪称金钱能买到的最佳社交场所，它很可能让你被同等精英阶层的人群环绕。我们仿佛认为，就像《旧约》第五日上帝赐予游乐场和图书馆那样，使用这些场所是与生俱来的权利。却忘了这些都是人类创造的成就。对吧？我们建造了大型公园、剧院、艺术空间。

So, for instance, like, the country club, that's an amazing social infrastructure, like, the best social infrastructure that your money can buy, and it's likely to make you surrounded by people who are just as elite as you are. We act as if, you know, in the Old Testament, on the fifth day, God said, today, I give you the playground and the library, and it's our birthright to spend time in them. We forget that these are achievements, you know, these are human inventions. Right? We built giant parks, theaters, art spaces.

我们曾基于彻底包容的愿景创建美好社会。但还不够彻底。总有人被排斥在公共空间之外。若忽视种族隔离机制、种族暴力现象以及性别导致的公共领域排斥，任何关于公共空间的历史叙述都是不完整的。所有这些都存在于公共空间的发展史中。

We created a good society based on a vision of radical inclusion. Not quite radical enough. People have always been left out of our public spaces. There's no history of this idea that is complete if it doesn't pay attention to how racial segregation works, and how racial violence works, and how gender excluded some people from some public realms. All of that stuff is there in the history of public space.

我认为过去几十年间，我们已将这些场所视为理所当然的存在。

I think in the last several decades, we've kind of come to take all of these places for granted.

拥有可供闲逛交流的场所，与社区在热浪等紧急事件中团结互助之间有何关联？

What is the connection between having places to just hang out and vibe, and having a community rally together and support each other in an emergency like a heat wave?

其实两者未必是因果关系。人们可能在休闲场所聚集却未参与重要公民事务。我通常认为，公共空间和社会基础设施是形成'命运共同体'意识的必要条件，让我们感受到

Well, you know, one doesn't necessarily lead to the other. You can have places where people hang out and vibe, and don't get active and engaged on important civic matters. I generally argue that public spaces and social infrastructure, they're a necessary condition for having some sense that we're in it together, and we have a

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，某种共同的目标，但它们绝不是足够的。在我的书中，我写了一位名叫马里奥·斯莫尔的社会学家的工作，他研究了幼儿日托设施，并比较了一个非常现代化的日托设施——它是为忙碌的上班族父母设立的，他们匆忙需要一个高效的地方，可以放下孩子，然后无缝地，你知道，回到街上赶去工作。他还将其与一个老式模式的日托中心进行了比较。父母被期望在房间里待上五到十分钟，并做一些志愿工作。他们每天必须经过一个共享的物理空间。

You know, some kind of common purpose, but they're by no means sufficient. In my book, I I write about the work of a sociologist named Mario Small, who studied daycare facilities for young children, and he compared a very modern daycare facility that was set up for busy working parents who were in a hurry, and needed a place that was efficient, and who could drop off their kids, and seamlessly, you know, get back on the street and get to work. And he compared that to a day care center that worked in the old fashioned model. The parents were expected to be in the room for five or ten minutes, and to do a little bit of volunteer work. There was a kind of shared physical space that they had to go through every day.

他发现，在第一种情况下的人们能更快地去工作。他们只是没有很好地相互了解。是的。而在第二种情况下的人们建立了所有这些关系。父母们，你知道，把他们的小孩子——他们在世界上比任何其他人或事都更关心的人——送到一个相对陌生的人家里，或和一个相对陌生的人一起去公园，因为他们如此迅速地能够培养出这种与某人——在很多情况下与他们非常不同的人——共同进退的感觉。

And what he found is that people who were in the first place, they got to work more quickly. They just didn't get to know each other all that well. Yeah. Whereas people in the second place, they built up all these relationships. Parents were, you know, sending their tiny child, the person about whom they cared more than anything or anyone else in the world, to the home of a relative stranger, to the park with a relative stranger, because they so quickly were able to develop this sense of being in it together with someone who who's, in many cases, very much unlike them.

所以，这与规划有关，与设计有关，与这种成为共享项目一部分的感觉有关。一些公共空间给了我们这种感觉，而另一些则真的没有。

And so, that has to do with programming, that has to do with design, that has to do with this feeling of being part of a shared project. And some public spaces give us that feeling, and others really don't.

是的。我很好奇这到底是如何发生的机制。我的意思是，也许是因为我没有孩子，也不去游乐场，但我感觉到一种分歧，即在公共场合是为了活跃，而放松是在家里。我周围的公共空间中有很多是人们熙熙攘攘。人们在进行商业活动，或者他们只是从这里走到那里，没有机会放慢脚步互相交谈，而且我不知道我们是否会这样做。

Yeah. I'm curious about the mechanics of how that even happens. I mean, maybe it's because I don't have children and I don't go to the playground, but I feel a bit of a divide where being in public is for being active and relaxing is for home. And so much of the public space around me is people are bustling. People are engaging in commerce or they're just walking from here to there, and they're not opportunities to slow down and talk to each other, and I don't know that we would.

是的。我是说

Yeah. I mean

这有道理吗？

Does that make sense?

这完全说得通，因为效率是社交生活的敌人。当你停下来、逗留和消磨时间时，往往会丰富你的社交生活。事实上，我认为美国人到其他国家旅行时，一个非常引人注目的现象是看到世界各地的人们多么乐于闲坐，比如集市文化、咖啡馆、酒吧或广场的氛围。

It it makes perfect sense because efficiency is the enemy of social life. You tend to enrich your social life when you stop and linger and waste time. And in fact, one of the really striking things, I think, for Americans when we travel to other countries is to see the extent to which people all over the world delight in sitting around, you know, the culture of the souq, or of the coffee shop, or the wine bar, or the plaza.

哦，是啊，在法国吃顿饭要五个小时。就像你找不到服务员结账，你知道吧？他人都没影了。

Oh, yeah, you have five hour dinners in France. Like, you can't find that waiter to get your check, you know? He's gone.

因为重点不是结账，而是待在那里。我们很难接受时钟的滴答声如何强烈地塑造了我们享受社交生活的能力。

Because the point is not to pay the check. The point is to be there. And it's hard for us to come to terms with just how forcefully the ticking clock shapes our capacity to take pleasure in social life.

有趣的是，你把周末没有WiFi看作是一种让人们离开空间的方式。我原以为这是咖啡馆或咖啡店为了促进人际关系而做出的宏大姿态。

It's interesting that you see the no WiFi on the weekends as a way to cycle people out of the space. I thought that was the cafe or coffee shop making a grand gesture in favor of relationship building.

哦，我猜我只是比你更愤世嫉俗。我的意思是，这又不是《吉尔莫女孩》里卢克的餐厅，挂个禁止手机的牌子。你知道，那样看很乐观，但我认为这是因为他们需要赚钱。

Oh, I guess I'm just more cynical than you. I mean, this isn't Luke's diner on Gilmore Girls, right, with his, like, no cell phone sign. You know, that's a very optimistic way to look at it, but I think it's because they need to make money.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，我和朋友去公共游泳池。我从图书馆借书。我们当地图书馆有个很热门的活动，就是他们定期举办的拼图交换。我和我的伴侣很酷，我们去和社区的人交换拼图。

You know, I go to the public pool with friends. I get books from the library. There is a very hot ticket at our local library, which is like a semi regular puzzle swap that they do. And my partner and I were very cool. We go and we swap puzzles with the community.

但我感觉在这些地方或活动中，我并没有真正建立新的关系或了解我的邻居。比如，我很喜欢这些资源，我不想失去它们，我很享受。但我只是自己一个人或和已经认识的人一起使用它们。

But I don't feel like I am really building new relationships or getting to know my neighbors at these places or or even at these events. Like, I love these resources. I don't wanna lose them. I enjoy them. But I just kinda use them by myself or with people I already know.

也许我在拼图交换会上会闲聊几句，但我并没有在那里交到新朋友。

Maybe I make a little light chitchat at the puzzle swap, but I'm not making new friends there.

嗯。而我

Mhmm. And I

觉得如果我试图那样做会感觉很怪。你知道，我完全理解埃里克所说的，某些空间确实比其他地方更适合建立联系。毫无疑问，图书馆的拼图交换会比麦当劳得来速有更多的连接潜力。但我仍然觉得有一种礼貌的障碍或保持自我的规范，阻碍了这种潜力完全实现。

think it would feel pretty weird if I, like, tried to. You know, I definitely see what Eric is saying in the sense that certain spaces are much more amenable to connection than other places. Like, there's no doubt that there's way more potential at the library puzzle swap for connection than there is at, like, the McDonald's drive through. But I still feel like there's a barrier of politeness or a norm of keeping to yourself that keeps that potential from being fully realized.

是的。而且我认为，保持自我的规范只会被社交媒体之类的东西进一步助长，让你可以移开视线、玩手机。奇怪的是，在疫情期间，我是最不擅长社交媒体的人，比如在Facebook上和我奶奶聊天，那就是我的全部知识了。但在疫情期间的某些时刻，我真的觉得我需要社交媒体才能生存，因为它成了我社交生活的主要平台。

Yeah. And I think the norm of keeping to yourself is only fueled more by things like social media and being able to look away and be on your phone. And weirdly, during the pandemic, I'm the least social media savvy person of all time, like, on Facebook, talk to my grandma on there. That's, like, the extent of my knowledge. But I really felt like I needed social media to survive at certain points during the pandemic because it became the main platform for my social life.

有趣的是，仅仅是与人共享物理空间也并不一定意味着我们更亲近。

It's interesting how just that shared physical presence with people also doesn't necessarily mean that we're closer.

是的。仅仅因为你去了咖啡馆，并不意味着你会从手机上抬起头来。

Yeah. Just because you go to the cafe doesn't mean you're gonna look up from your phone.

是的。

Yes.

你是否认为在某种程度上，我们已经用社交媒体取代了与社会基础设施的关系？

Do you think that to some degree we've replaced our relationship to social infrastructure with social media?

你知道，我认为社交媒体就像一种通信基础设施。它确实帮助我们与他人互动，但最终它提供的是一种贫乏的社交生活。想想2020年4月我的感受——嗯，当时我们正处于疫情初期，大家都被困在家里，彼此隔绝。

You know, I think of social media as like a communications infrastructure. It definitely helps us to engage other people. It's a kind of impoverished social life that it that it delivers in the end. Think about how I felt in April 2020 Mhmm. When we were in the beginning of the pandemic, because we were all in our homes cut off from each other.

我们一直在互相交流，对吧？我们用FaceTime，用Skype，对吧？

We're talking to each other all the time. Right? We're on FaceTime. We're on Skype. Right?

我们和以前从不交谈的人聊天。我们并非完全社交孤立，对吧？但我们是物理上隔离的，而且很痛苦。所以这就是社交媒体作为社交基础设施的生活。

We talked to everybody we didn't talk to before. We weren't exactly socially isolated. Right? But we were physically isolated and we were miserable. So that's life where social media is social infrastructure.

我确实想知道，是否有一种个人主义也在影响我们的生活选择以及我们与社会基础设施互动的方式。

I do wonder whether there is an individualism that is also affecting our living choices and the way that we engage with the social infrastructure.

我能告诉你一件惊人的事吗？

Can I tell you something amazing?

请讲。我很乐意被震撼。

Please. I love to be amazed.

我发现，在独居方面，美国是一个落后者，而非领导者。独居在欧洲大多数社会比在美国更为普遍。在日本更常见。在法国和英国也更常见。斯堪的纳维亚社会的独居率是地球上最高的。

I discovered that The United States is a laggard, not a leader when it comes to living alone. Living alone is far more common in most European societies than it is in The US. It's more common in Japan. It's more common in France and England. Scandinavian societies have the highest levels of living alone on Earth.

德国也比美国高。通过这项研究，我了解到真正推动独居的是相互依存性。当你拥有一个强大的福利国家，并保障人们有能力维持生计，而不必依附于一个他们可能不想与之在一起的伴侣时，你就给了人们选择以当时最适合他们的方式生活的自由。

Germany is higher than The United States. And what I learned about doing this research is that what really is driving living alone is interdependence. When you have a strong welfare state, and you guarantee people the capacity to make ends meet without being tethered to a partner who they might not wanna be with, you give people the choice to live the way that feels best to them at that moment.

那么你认为独居者更依赖社会基础设施吗？

Do you think then that the solo livers rely on social infrastructure more?

确实如此。他们更可能去酒吧、餐馆、咖啡馆，去健身房，去听音乐会。我刚刚和一名叫Jenny Lee的研究生在《社会问题》期刊上发表了一篇论文，我们采访了55位在疫情初期独自居住在纽约的人。我们与他们谈论了他们的经历，结果非常有趣。比如，他们很少谈到社交孤立，也没有过多抱怨那种传统的孤独感，比如缺少可以交谈的人，但他们感到身体上的孤独。

They do. They're more likely to go out to bars, and restaurants, and cafes, and to go to gyms, to go to concerts. I just published a paper in a journal called Social Problems with a graduate student named Jenny Lee, and we we interviewed 55 people who were living alone in New York during the first stage of the pandemic. We talked to them about their experiences, and it was really interesting. Like, they talked very little about social isolation, and they didn't complain that much about the kind of conventional loneliness, like, lacking people to talk to, but they felt physically lonely.

他们感到身体上的孤立。他们非常想念我们在社区里度过时光时见到的那种熟悉的陌生人。

They felt physically isolated. And they really missed the kind of familiar strangers we see when we spend time in a neighborhood.

嗯。

Mhmm.

它只是给我们一种感觉，你知道，让我们知道自己的位置和归属感。他们感受到一种尖锐的痛苦，这与我们当时普通对话中的痛苦略有不同。

It just give us a sense of, you know, where we are and that we belong. They felt acute kind of pain that was slightly different than the pain of the common conversation we had at the time.

好的。那么如果你可以

Okay. So what if you could

听你所有的书籍、文档、PDF和文章呢？嗯，你可以。使用11 Reader应用，你可以将任何内容转换成像这样自然发音的语音。所以今天就到你喜欢的应用商店免费下载11 Reader吧。

listen to all your books, docs, PDFs, and articles? Well, you can. With the 11 Reader app, you can turn anything into natural sounding voice like this one. So download 11 Reader for free on your favorite app store today.

我们现在面临的一个问题是，美国大多数城市、郊区和城镇都有公共图书馆。那里有社区图书馆。建筑还在那里。但现在这些建筑通常没有更新。它们需要新的暖通空调系统，需要新的卫生间，需要新的家具，更不用说新书了。

One of the problems we have now is most cities, suburbs, towns in America have public libraries there. There's neighborhood libraries. The building is there. Now, the buildings are generally not updated. They need to have new HVACs, they need new bathrooms, they need new furniture, let alone new books.

有些图书馆对坐轮椅的人来说仍然无法进入。我的意思是，图书馆存在各种问题，仅仅在物理设施上，因为我们对其投资不足。但不幸的是，图书馆已经成为所有安全网遗漏者的最后避难所。

Some are still not accessible to people in wheelchairs. I mean, there's all kinds of problems with libraries, just physically because we've under invested in them. But libraries, unfortunately, have become the place of last resort for everyone who falls through the safety net.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果你在美国城市早上醒来没有家，你会被告知去图书馆。如果你早上醒来正遭受成瘾问题困扰，需要一个温暖的地方，他们会送你去图书馆。

If you wake up in the morning in the American city and you don't have a home, you're told to go to a library. If you wake up in the morning and you're suffering from an addiction problem, you need a warm place, they'll send you to a library.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你需要使用洗手间，你会去图书馆。如果你没有人为你照看孩子，你可能会把孩子送到图书馆。如果你老了而且独自一人，你可能会去图书馆。我们试图利用图书馆来解决所有这些本应得到实际处理的问题。有多少次你听到有人说，图书馆基本上就是个无家可归者收容所？

If you need to use a bathroom, you'll go to a library. If you don't have childcare for your kid, you might send your kid to a library. If you're old and you're alone, you might go to the library. We've used the library to try to solve all these problems that deserve actual treatment. And how many times have you talked to someone who said, like, it's basically a homeless shelter?

发生的事情是，我们污名化了我们的公共空间，因为我们为解决核心问题做得太少，以至于把它们变成了需要帮助的人的最后求助场所。而当我们这样做时，我们向富裕的中产阶级美国人传递了另一个信息，那就是，如果你想要一个聚会场所，就在私营部门自己建造一个。所以我们还有很多工作要做。

What's happened is we've stigmatized our public spaces because we've done so little to address core problems that we've turned them into spaces of last resort for people who need a hand. And as we do that, we send another message to affluent middle class Americans, and that is, if you want a gathering place, build your own in the private sector. So we have a lot of work to do.

是的。是的。如果你总是充当危机中心，你就不一定有精力去做其他事情。

Yeah. Yeah. If you're always being a crisis center, you don't necessarily have energy for other things.

不。而且图书管理员们不堪重负。他们有这些超能力，能够以各种方式提供帮助。但你知道，如果你去和城市图书馆系统的图书馆员交谈，他们手头的事情多得根本处理不完。

No. And and librarians are overwhelmed. They have these kind of superpowers and are capable of helping in all these ways. But they you know, if you go and talk to libraries in urban library systems, they have more to chew on than they can possibly get through.

听到我们的环境如何鼓励或阻碍互动和社区建设，这对我来说真的很有趣，因为我觉得在某种程度上，我总是觉得如果我没有那种我真正想要的理想社区感，那就是我不够努力的错。这其中有多少责任在于政府，而我们除了去烦扰市政官员之外，能做的并不多？

It's really interesting to me to hear about the ways our environment either encourages or discourages interaction and community building because I think on some level, I've always felt like if I don't have that ideal sense of community that I really want, then it's my fault for not trying hard enough. How much of this is just on the government, and there's not much we can do besides, like, pestering aldermen?

我认为我们有责任去建立我们想要的政治机构，也有责任去建造我们需要的公共场所。所以美国生活的一个奇迹是，我们在每个社区都有这些公共图书馆。这让你思考，我们是怎么得到这些东西的？

I think it's on us to to build the political institutions that we want, and also to build the public places that we need. So one of the miracles of American life is that we have these public libraries in every neighborhood. And it makes you think, like, how do we get these things?

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？比如，如果你现在去找纽约州州长——她是个民主党人，自称进步派——如果图书馆不存在，而你说，能不能在纽约每个社区都建一栋楼，往这些楼里装满书籍、视频、电脑和舒适的家具，告诉人们他们每周有五、六、七天都可以来，有些地方还会有图书馆员作为公务员来管理。人们可以免费借走东西，为了确保他们会归还，我们会采用诚信制度。如果我们还没有图书馆，如果我们没有发明这个，你觉得美国有哪个州长会支持这个想法？不可能，绝无可能。

Right? Like, if you went to the governor of New York right now, who's a Democrat and calls herself a progressive, and and the library didn't exist, and you said, like, could you build a building in every neighborhood in New York, and fill those buildings with, you know, books and videos and computers and comfortable furniture, tell people that they're welcome five, six, seven days a week in some places, the buildings are gonna be staffed by librarians who are public employees. People can take the stuff out for free, and to make sure they bring it back, we'll use the honor system. If we didn't have a library already, if we hadn't invented that, do you think any governor in America would support that idea? Like, no no chance.

对，绝对不可能。

Right. No chance in hell.

多莉·帕顿会这么做，但我不确定他们会不会。

Dolly Parton would do it, but I don't know if they would.

如果我们还没有图书馆，没人会支持这个想法。图书馆就像是一个乌托邦式的社会主义幻想。而奇迹在于我们拥有它们。想想美国的公园系统、公立学校，我们建造了所有这些。为什么我们这么多人觉得很难聚在一起享受彼此的陪伴？因为我们从彼此、从国家、从企业界接收到的信号告诉我们，如果我们想要那种集体体验，我们就是怪异和奇怪的。

Nobody would support the idea of a library if we didn't already have it. It's like a utopian socialist fantasy, the library. And the miracle is that we have them. If you think about the American public park system, the public schools like, we built all these things. The reason so many of us feel like it's so hard to hang out and enjoy the companionship of other people is because the signals we get from each other and from the state and from the corporate world tell us that we're freakish and weird if we want that kind of collective experience.

每个人都知道幸福在你的手机里。在22美元的鸡尾酒吧里。在9美元的咖啡店、14美元的冰淇淋蛋筒里。这些才是应该给我们带来快乐的东西。我认为我们需要开始想象一个不同的社会可能是什么样子。

Everybody knows happiness is in your phone. It's at the $22 cocktail bar. It's at the $9 coffee shop, the $14 ice cream cone. Those are the things that are supposed to give us pleasure. I think we need to start to imagine what a different kind of society might look like.

如何重建公共空间，使其成为21世纪版本的20世纪图书馆？我们想设计什么样的地方，以便我们能以不同的方式彼此相处？

How to rebuild public spaces that are the twenty first century version of the twentieth century library? What are the kinds of places we'd like to design so that we could be with each other differently?

贝卡，在这些空间中真正找到社群的另一个重要因素是，人们要抓住它们提供的连接机会去行动。如果我去参加拼图交换活动却没人互相交谈，那就很难了。我的意思是，我自己也经常有这个问题，进去拿了拼图就走，没有真正努力去闲聊和建立新关系。

Another important piece, Becca, to actually finding community in these spaces is people acting on the opportunity to connect that they present. It's hard if I'm going to the puzzle swap and no one's talking to each other. I mean, I'm guilty of going in, grabbing my puzzles, and getting out, and not really making a big effort to chitchat and make a new relationship there.

没错。所以除了设计用来聚集人群的物理空间外，还需要那种交流和逗留的文化氛围。所以现在我到了这个地方，图书馆或任何场所，接下来还需要有一些互动发生。

Right. So it's like on top of the physical space designed to bring people together, you also need that culture of mingling and lingering. So now I'm in the place, the library, wherever it may be, now something needs to come after that.

是的。而且很难让人觉得你是在独自承担促成这种互动的责任。同时，你看到有人欢迎你吗？你觉得自己主动找人搭话舒服吗？你看到其他人在交流吗？

Yeah. And it it's it's hard to feel like you're just taking that on yourself to try to make that happen. It's also, do you see people welcoming you? Do you feel comfortable going up to someone to strike up a conversation? Do you see other people mingling?

场所的设计完全可以鼓励或阻碍互动，但显然，场所中人们的行为也能起到同样作用。没错。

The design of a place can totally encourage or discourage interactions, but obviously, so can the behavior of the people in the place. Right.

就像我在咖啡馆交到的那位朋友算是比较少见的情况，因为通常咖啡馆里的人都在工作、阅读，或者像你之前说的，和他们已经认识的人在一起。

Like, the friend I made at the cafe is kind of a rare occurrence because normally, people in the cafe are working, reading, or as you've said before, with people they already know.

是的。而且咖啡馆的社交规范会与公共游泳池、本地运动队或教堂的规范不同。在咖啡馆里，每个人的目的可能都不一样。比如贝卡在那里交朋友，但有些人只是独自看书或与人一对一吃午餐。但在教堂里，一般来说，存在一种我们渴望彼此建立社群联系的规范。

Yeah. And the social norms of a cafe are gonna be different than the social norms of a public pool or, you know, a local sports team or a church. In a cafe, everyone kinda has different agendas. Like, Becca's out there making a friend, but, like, some people are just reading a book by themselves or having that one on one lunch with somebody. But in a church, for instance, like, generally speaking, there's a norm that we want to be in community with each other.

我们有共同的价值观，我们来到这里就是为了相互连接。

We have shared values and we're here to connect.

教会对我来说意味着一切，因为那些关系是如此具有变革性且深厚。无论是我人生的每一个高光时刻还是低谷，教会，我的教会一直都在我身边。

My church has been everything to me because those relationships have just been so transformative and so deep. Every single highlight of my life or lowlife, the church, my church has been there for me.

凯莉·卡特·杰克逊是韦尔斯利学院的历史学家和教授，我们最近聊到了她所在社区的关怀文化。在她的人生中，她发现像教会和她孩子学校这样的地方，为建立深厚的支持关系铺平了道路，因为这些空间本身以及其中的人们都非常热情。你觉得在你搬去的新地方找到教会，是否有助于快速建立那些深厚的关系？

Kelly Carter Jackson is a historian and a professor from Wellesley College, and we recently spoke about the culture of care in her community. So in her life, she's found that places like the church and her kids' school have smoothed that path to building those deep relationships of support because both the spaces themselves and the people in them have been welcoming. Do you feel like finding a church in the new places where you've moved to, has that helped in getting to those deep relationships quickly?

是的，绝对如此。我想说，当我们住在北达科他州时，我几乎所有的友谊要么来自军队，要么来自我们去的教会。人们非常热情和友善，你知道，你会加入像圣经学习小组或妈妈宝宝小组，这些很快就变成了深厚的友谊。当我丈夫接受大量培训，他在孟菲斯，离家大约三个月，我有三个孩子要照顾，感到不知所措。

Yes. Absolutely. I will say that when we lived in North Dakota, almost all of my friendships either came from the military or the church that we were going to. People were just so warm and so kind and, you know, you would join like a bible study group or a mommy and me group and those became fast friendships. When my husband was going through extensive training and he was in Memphis, he was out of town for like three months and I was overwhelmed by three kids.

他们组织了一个送餐轮值，还带来了——我讨厌做饭。应该说，我讨厌做饭。所以我的教会小组就说，嘿，既然纳撒尼尔不在，我们怎么能帮你减轻一些负担？我们能做些什么？我就说，我只需要饭菜。

They did a meal train and just brought I hate cooking. Should say, I hate cooking. And so my church small group was like, hey, how can we take off some of the burdens since Nathaniel's gone? What can we do? And I was like, I just need meals.

所以，知道人们在你真的压力山大时会为你多走一英里，这意义重大。

And so, just to know that people would go the extra mile for you when you're really taxed is huge.

是的。我猜我明白，你知道，教会某种程度上是一个自然的聚集地，因为它有那种社群价值观，像是内置在机构里的。你的信仰如何影响你与邻居建立社区的方式？

Yeah. I guess I see, you know, church is sort of a natural gathering place because it has those kind of communal values, like, built into the institution. How does your faith sort of influence your approach to community with your neighbors?

我认为我一直试图示范如何成为一个好邻居，无论我的邻居有什么宗教信仰。我在教会中长大，所以我父母为我示范了热情好客。我们家里总是人来人往。我们有一个大家庭，七兄弟姐妹之一，所以就像，多一个又何妨？多六个又何妨？

I think that I have always tried to model what it means to be a good neighbor, regardless of my neighbor's religious affiliations. I grew up in the church, so my parents modeled for me hospitality. We always had people over our house all the time. We have a big family, one of seven, so it's like, what's one more? What's six more?

再来十个又怎样？尽管让他们来吧。是的，我就是这样展现我的友谊、我的爱、我的关怀。通过让你感到受欢迎，给你一个休息的地方。

What's 10 more? Bring them on in. Yeah. That is how I show my friendship, show my love, show my care. It is by making you feel welcome and by giving you a place to rest.

而且这并不总是延伸到我们认识的人。比如，我有一些好朋友。他们说，嘿，我们认识这个人。他是个好人。他需要找个地方暂住两个月。

And it does not always extend to people we know. Like, had good friends. They said, hey, we know this guy. He's a good guy. He needs a place to crash for two months.

是啊，当然。所以，大多数人可能会想，这个陌生人是谁？对吧。他是谁？

Yeah. Sure. So, like, most people would be like, who is this random guy? Right. Who is he?

但他实际上人真的很好。他的妻子和孩子都很可爱，现在他们是我们珍贵的朋友。我一直努力扮演好撒玛利亚人的角色，关照那些没有社交联系的人，并试图将他们纳入我们的圈子。这对我来说非常重要。就像，我非常认真地对待友谊。

But but he was he was actually really nice. His wife and kids are lovely and they're dear friends of ours now. I've always tried to occupy the space of the good Samaritan and looking out for people who don't have connection and trying to bring them into the fold. That's really important for me. Like, I take friendship very seriously.

有时候我觉得新友谊让我感到负担的唯一原因是，我会想，我不知道我是否能以我想要的方式去爱你。我现在已经忙不过来了。是的，对吧？因为我非常认真地对待这些友谊。

And the only reason sometimes I feel burdened by new friendships is because I'm like, I don't know if I can love you the way I wanna love you. My my plate's full right now. Yeah. Right? Because I take those friendships so seriously.

我不会随便接纳新的人。不是每个人都接受这种方式，这没关系。但对于那些接受的人，我认为你可以建立非常深厚、有意义的关系。比如当我想到邻居时，我认为这甚至延伸到了我孩子的学校。所以我六岁的孩子当时非常难过，因为我岳母去世了，她的曾祖母也去世了。

I don't just casually bring in new people. Not everybody's receptive to that, and that's fine. But for those who are, I think you can have really deep, meaningful relationships. Like when I think of neighbor, I think that extends even into my kid's school. So my six year old had a real hard time because not only had my mother-in-law passed away, but her great grandmother had died as well.

所以我们在大约三个月的时间里经历了两次重大的损失，一位母亲和一位祖母。乔乔是我中间那个孩子的名字。乔乔为此非常伤心。她哭了三十分钟，我几乎无法安抚她。我给她老师发了封邮件，说，嘿，乔乔现在非常难过。

So we had like two big losses, a mother and a grandmother in about a three month period. Jojo is my middle child's name. Jojo was just distraught by it. Like she cried for thirty minutes and I couldn't almost I couldn't calm her down. I sent her teacher an email and I said, hey, Jojo's having a really hard time.

我让她带了一张她祖母的照片去学校。她可能会放在背包里，也可能会拿出来，但我只是想让你知道，嗯，事情是这样的。是的。然后她的老师做了件事。天哪，抱歉，我有点情绪化了。

I sent her to school with a picture of her grandmother's. She might keep it in her backpack, she might take it out, but I just want you to know, like, this is what's going on. Yeah. And her teacher did something. Gosh, sorry, I'm getting emotional.

我在说

I'm talking

这件事。

about it.

她的老师看到她拿着照片，就说，孩子们，你们想和全班分享这个吗？于是她就在全班面前站起来，讲述了她的祖母们，她们是谁，还有，嗯，她的老师给了她这样的空间，还拥抱了她。乔乔非常开心。她能够分享这些真的很高兴。这意味着，嗯，我和她的老师不太熟，但我知道她关爱我的孩子，我知道她在孩子情绪低落时为她创造了空间，而且她会对每个孩子都这样做。

Her teacher saw her with the picture and she said, children, do you wanna share that with the classroom? And so she got up in front of the classroom and she talked about her grandmothers and just who they were and, like, the fact that her teacher gave her space to do that, she gave her a hug. And Jojo was so happy. Like, she was so happy to be able to share that. It just meant, like, I don't know her teacher very well, but I know that she loves on my kid, and I know that she created space for my kid when she was having a hard time emotionally, and that she would do that for any kid.

是的。然后之后，她给我写了一封长信，嗯，她告诉我发生的一切，她说，你知道，乔乔是个很棒的孩子，我们在支持她，我们在这里陪着她。就是这些小事让你知道，嗯，当你不在孩子身边时，还有别人在照顾他们，给他们空间，倾听他们并肯定他们的感受，这些是非常大的情绪，大多数幼儿园孩子无法表达，大多数成年人——我总是被邻居们的善良和人们在困难时期提供安慰的能力所感动。是的。抱歉我这么——不。

Yeah. And then afterwards, she wrote me this long note, like, she told me everything that happened, and she was like, you know, Jojo's a wonderful kid, we're supporting her, we're here for her. And it's just those little things that let you know that, like, when you're not around your kids, that there are other people that are giving them care, that are giving them space, that are listening to them and affirming their feelings, they're really big feelings that most kindergartners cannot articulate, most adults I can't am always overwhelmed by just like, the goodness of neighbors and people's capacity to provide comfort during hard times. Yeah. Sorry I got so No.

这真的很美好。不。是的。这真的很美好。我说过我不会哭的。

It's really lovely. No. Yeah. It's really lovely. I said I wasn't gonna cry.

不。我

No. I

我的意思是，我认为在我们的文化中，很多时候存在着一种强烈的孤独感。而且，有时候你可以独自应对。虽然看起来很孤独，但你还是可以做到的。

mean, I think there's so much go it aloneness in our culture a lot of the time. And, like, sometimes you can get by with that. Like, it seems lonely, but like, you can do it.

可以做到，但你应该这样做吗？

And Can but should you.

可以做到，但你应该这样做吗？

Can but should you.

你明白我的意思吗？是的。

You know what I mean? Yeah.

当你处于如此强烈的悲痛之中时，你会非常清楚地意识到你无法独自承受。

When you are in such a place of intense grief, like, it becomes very clear that you can't.

嗯。你无法也不应该独自承受。如果再让我听到有人说'上帝不会给你承受不了的考验'，我真的很想揍他们。为什么？但我觉得，我们有很多这样空洞的陈词滥调。

Mhmm. You can't and you shouldn't. If I hear one more person say, God won't give you more than you can bear, I'm like, I won't wanna punch them. Why? But I think that, like, we have these cliches that are so empty.

它们太空洞了。我认为，应该给人们自由去感受他们的感受，按照这些感受行事而不被评判，被倾听。大多数人只是想被倾听。你知道，我认为在黑人社群中，我们彼此关怀。有一种亲属关系的理念。

They're so empty. And I think that, you know, just giving people the freedom to feel what they feel, to act upon those feelings without feeling judged, to be heard. Most people just wanna be heard. You know, I think in the Black community, we care for one another. There is this idea of kinship.

这种观念是，无论是否有血缘关系，这位是你的阿姨，这位是你的叔叔，这位是你的表亲，这就是你的家人，我们彼此相见，认可彼此的人性，互相支持。我看到黑人女性之间的互动方式，我们总是互相鼓励。‘好的，姐妹，我看到你喜欢那件毛衣。哦，姑娘。是的。’

This idea that whether you are blood related or not, this is your auntie, this is your uncle, this is your cousin, this is your fam, that we see each other, that we recognize each other's humanity, that we show up for each other. There are ways I think I just see how like black women interact with each other and we're always like, you know, boosting each other. Okay, sis, I see you love that sweater. Oh, girl. Yeah.

就像，黑人有一种方式，我们喜欢互相爱护。你知道，我们喜欢为每一个黑人加油。我们不知道比赛中有谁，但看到一个黑人兄弟，那就是我们支持的人。你知道吗？就像，黑人的那种熟悉感有一种连接人们的东西，既是精神上的也是文化上的。

Like, we there is a way in which black people, we love to love on each other. You know, we love to root for everybody black. We don't know who's in the game, but we see a black dude, that's who we're rooting for. You know? Like, there is something about that familiarity of blackness that connects people that is both spiritual and cultural.

所以如果你在教堂长大，我认为这些关于如何出现和关心他人的观念对你来说得到了加强。

And so if you grew up in the church, I think those ideas are fortified for you of how you should show up and care for other people.

我的意思是，如果没有教堂，你如何与邻居和社区里的人达到那种境界？

I mean, how do you get to that place with neighbors and people in your community without a church?

我觉得这很难。

I think it's tough.

是的。确实很难。

Yeah. It is tough.

我认为并非不可能。我的意思是，有时来自教堂的一套共同价值观让建立友谊变得稍微容易一些，你知道？所以如果你在教堂认识人，在很大程度上，你们有一种共同的意识，比如，好吧，我们都爱耶稣。好了。你知道，就像，那是基础点。

I think it's not impossible. I mean, there is something about, like, a shared set of values sometimes that comes from the church that allows making friendships to be a little bit easier, you know? So if you are meeting people in the church, for the most part, you have sort of a shared sense of like, okay, we all love Jesus. Alright. You know, like, that's the base point.

我们都知道应该如何对待彼此，希望你知道，但如果没有这种意识，有时我认为信任可能会成为问题。比如，我不得不让那些信仰与我不同的人知道，你可以依赖我，可以信任我，我不会评判你，我们的家欢迎所有背景的人。因为我觉得人们有时会对他们认为有宗教信仰的人感到拘谨。而我从不希望与我交往的任何人有这种感觉。我有一个朋友在读研究生时母亲去世了。

We all know how we should treat each other, hopefully, you know, like but if you don't have that, sometimes I think that trust can be an issue. Like, I've had to let people know who are outside of my faith, you can depend on me, you can trust me, I'm not going to judge you, that our home is welcome to anyone of all backgrounds. Because I think people can sometimes be skittish around people that they think are religious. And I never wanted anyone that I connected with to feel like that. I had a friend who was in graduate school whose mother passed away.

我记得当时联系她，问她：你怎么样？感觉如何？这里有一些对我有帮助的资料，因为我的兄弟姐妹大约一年前去世了。她实际上对我的回应有点惊讶，我想是因为她说：你知道，我在一个无神论者的社区长大。她说，我们没有这样的习俗或传统，比如带食物或持续的关怀，这不是她传统的一部分。

And I remember reaching out to her, like, how are you doing? How are you feeling? You know, here's some literature that helped me because my siblings had passed away maybe about a year before. And she was a little startled actually by my response, I think, because she said, you know, I grew up in a community of atheists. She said, we just don't have a practice or tradition that the idea of like bringing food or, you know, sort of like ongoing care was not something that was a part of her tradition.

所以无论人们的信仰如何，我作为一个好邻居的职责就是帮助分担一些重担，这样你就不必独自承担所有。所以我努力记住重要的日期，努力记住名字，这就是为什么当我遇到新朋友时，我会说：哦，天哪。好吧，给我更多容量。

So regardless of people's faith, my job as a good neighbor is to help shoulder some of that weight. So you don't have to carry it all on your own. So I try to remember important dates. I try to remember names, which is why I say when I meet new people, I'm like, Oh, man. Okay, give me more capacity.

那么，朱莉，你去哪里建立社区，或者至少在共享空间中感受到这种社区感？

So, Julie, where do you go to build community or at least feel this sense of community in a shared space?

我不觉得仅仅坐在我家前廊（如果我有的话）、去咖啡馆或去某个特定地方就能让社区主动来找我。与埃里克和凯莉的交谈让我意识到，你既需要一个地方的设计，也需要使用该空间的人的意图和价值观。特别是大学后的世俗世界，感觉并不像以前那样为自发轻松的连接而设置。如果你有一个设计完美但人们不想连接的空间，那么我想你拥有的就是苹果商店。而如果人们真的想连接却没有地方去实现，那么他们也会挣扎。

I don't feel like just sitting out on my front porch if I had one or going to a cafe or going to a specific place is gonna make community come to me. I feel like talking with both Eric and Kelly kinda made me realize that you need both the design of a place and the intentions and the values of the people who are using that space. The sort of post college secular world, particularly, doesn't feel set up for just spontaneous easy connection in the same way. And if you just have an impeccably designed space where people don't wanna connect, then, like, I guess what you have is the Apple Store. And if people really wanna connect and they don't have anywhere to go to do that, then they're gonna struggle as well.

尽管这有点令人沮丧，但说实话，我觉得如果你想要那种深度互联的社区感，而不是在教堂、大学或专门帮助你找到它的机构里，你有点需要逆流而上，自己想办法创造它。

And even though this is kind of a frustrating takeaway, honestly, it feels to me like if you want that deep interconnected sense of community outside of a church or a college or an institution that's built to help you find it, you kinda have to swim against the current a little bit and find a way to make it for yourself.

以上就是本周《如何与人交谈》节目的全部内容。本期节目由我丽贝卡·拉希德制作，由朱莉·贝克主持。编辑由乔斯林·弗兰克和克劳迪娜·阿巴特负责。事实核查由安娜·阿尔瓦拉多完成。我们的工程师是罗布·斯默西亚克。

That's all for this week's episode of How to Talk to People. This episode was produced by me, Rebecca Rashid, and hosted by Julie Beck. Editing by Jocelyn Frank and Claudine Abate. Fact check by Anna Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smersiak.

今天的节目由Eleven Labs赞助，这是一家让AI语音听起来不像AI语音的公司，就像这个声音一样。Eleven Labs为企业和公司提供技术支持，帮助他们构建栩栩如生的对话式AI语音助手。他们的语音助手可用于处理各种事务，从客户支持查询、预约安排，甚至提供个性化的一对一辅导。所以，加入成千上万已经在业务中使用AI语音的领导者行列吧。

Today's episode is brought to you by Eleven Labs, the company behind AI voices that don't sound like AI voices. Like this one. Eleven Labs powers companies and enterprises in building lifelike conversational AI voice agents. Their voice agents are used to handle everything from customer support queries, appointment scheduling, and even offer personalized one on one tutoring. So join the thousands of leaders already using AI Voice in their business.

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