在悲痛后重新开始……与斯坦利·图奇和杰里·霍尔韦尔-霍纳

你永远不知道谁会出现在《与詹·哈特梅克共赴爱之旅》中。

You never know who's going to show up on for the love with Jen Hatmaker.

从梅尔·罗宾斯到提格·诺塔罗，从凯特·鲍勒到斯坦利·图奇，我是詹·哈特梅克，每周我和我亲爱的朋友艾米都会与那些让我们欢笑、落泪、并对中年生活有更深思考的非凡嘉宾深入对话。

From Mel Robbins to Tig Notaro, Kate Bowler to Stanley Tucci, I'm Jen Hatmaker, and every week, my dear friend Amy and I dive deep with incredible guests who make us laugh and cry and think a little bigger about life in the middle years.

《共赴爱之旅》，精彩故事与难忘人物相遇之地。

For the love, where great stories meet unforgettable people.

请在您收听播客的任何平台关注并收听

Follow and listen wherever you get your

播客。

podcasts.

萨布丽娜。

Sabrina.

科琳。

Corinne.

我一直在听一档名为《致命幻想》的新播客节目。

I have been listening to a new show from the binge called Fatal Fantasy.

我着迷了。

I am obsessed.

等等。

Wait.

我需要

I need

知道更多。

to know more.

告诉我。

Tell me.

把一切都告诉我。

Tell me everything.

好的。

Okay.

我会的。

I will.

这非常令人震惊。

So it's a very shocking.

这是一个极其古怪的谋杀雇佣案，什么？

It's this, like, ultra weird crime story of a murder for hire plot that What?

是的。

Yeah.

别急。

Wait for it.

利用地下世界及其作为中世纪奇幻游戏的动态。

Leverage the dynamics of the underworld and underworld being a medieval fantasy game.

等等。

Wait.

所以这是角色扮演演砸了？

So it's live action role playing gone wrong?

彻底搞砸了。

Horribly wrong.

你现在可以一口气看完所有集。

And you can binge all episodes now.

天哪。

Oh my god.

听起来太棒了。

That sounds so good.

我知道我今天开车时要做什么了。

I know what I'm doing on my drive

回家的路上。

home today.

搜索《Fatal Fantasy》，并在 Apple 播客或 getthebinge.com 上订阅 Binge 播客频道。

Search for Fatal Fantasy and subscribe to the Binge podcast channel on Apple Podcasts or at getthebinge.com.

看完之后，你可以一边等待下个月的新剧集，一边收听频道内六十多个真实的犯罪和调查类播客。

And then once you're done, you can listen to one of the over 60 true crime and investigative podcasts a part of the channel while you wait for the next month's drop.

我真的很想知道接下来会发生什么。

I really need to know what happens.

自私地说，你这么做是为了我们能讨论它。

Selfishly, you do so that we can talk about it.

所以每当你收听时，搜索《Fatal Fantasy》并订阅《Binge》频道，一次性免费收听所有剧集。

So whenever you listen, search for Fatal Fantasy and hit subscribe to the binge to get all episodes all at once ad free.

欢迎回到《如何失败》。

Welcome back to How to Fail.

在这一期特别节目中，我们将探讨一个许多人一生中都会面对的话题——重新开始。

In this special episode, we're talking about a topic many of us face at some point in our lives, starting over.

这通常被描述为一种大胆但略带恐惧的选择，但生活很少如此简单。

It's often framed as a bold, if somewhat scary choice, but life rarely makes it that simple.

有时，重新开始是在失去之后发生的，当我们所爱的人离世时。

Sometimes starting again comes after loss when someone we love is gone.

而你生活的每一天都不再和从前一样。

And nothing about our days looks quite the same.

首先，我们回听斯坦利·图奇坦诚谈论他第一任妻子凯特去世的经历。

First, we listen back to Stanley Tucci speaking openly about the death of his first wife, Kate.

他谈到了自己背负的沉重内疚，之后不得不做出的选择，以及如何在没有凯特的情况下，与孩子们一起重建生活。

He talks about the terrible guilt he carried, the choices he subsequently had to make, and how he rebuilt a life with his children and without Kate.

然后，杰里·哈莉韦尔·霍纳回顾了自己青少年时期失去父亲的经历，以及这段经历如何塑造了她的抱负和对死亡的看法。

Then Geri Halliwell Horner reflects on losing her father as a teenager, and how it shaped her ambition and her view of mortality.

在创作小说的过程中，她不断回到那段失去的回忆，探索当时无法言说的悲痛。

While writing her novel, she found herself returning to that loss and exploring grief she didn't have words for at the time.

我认为，这两个故事都表明，重新开始很少是整洁或直接的。

Both stories, I think, show that starting again is rarely neat or straightforward.

斯坦利和杰里帮助我们理解，继续生活并不意味着遗忘过去，而是带着过去前行，并以此帮助自己重新启程。

Stanley and Geri helped to explain that moving on with your life doesn't mean forgetting the past, but rather carrying it with you and helping you to begin again.

首先，让我们听一听斯坦利的故事。

First, let's hear from Stanley.

这引出了你的第三个遗憾，这是一个重大且非常动人的分享，正如你所说，就是你未能帮助凯特——你的第一任妻子。

And that brings us to your third phania, which is a big one and a really beautiful one for you to share, and it is, as you put it, your failure to help Kate, your first wife.

请告诉我们，你这句话是什么意思？

Tell us what you mean by that.

你知道吗，她确诊时大约43岁，而她一直以来是个非常健康的人。

Well, you know, she was diagnosed when she was, I think, 43 years old, and this was an incredibly healthy person.

她一生几乎没生过什么病。

She was barely ever sick a day in her life.

她确诊时已是四期，除了一个小得不起眼的肿块外，没有任何其他症状，但癌症已经扩散了。

She was diagnosed at stage four, but had no symptoms other than a tiny little lump, but the cancer had already spread.

基本上，癌细胞几乎遍布全身。

It was basically practically everywhere.

正如我所说，我们曾环游世界，只为寻找能让她好转的方法。

We traveled, as I said, around the world trying to figure out how to just make her better.

我想，这件事有两个方面。

And there are two parts to this, I suppose.

最深刻的失败是一种自私的行为——我在她去世时没能陪在她身边。

The most profound failure was a selfish act, which was I could not be with her when she died.

她是在我们家离世的，我知道，如果我当时躺在她身边，或守在床边，亲眼看着她离去，我就无法继续正常生活，也无法照顾孩子们。

She died in our house, and I knew that if I were in bed next to her or, you know, by the bed next to her, and was there when she passed away that I that I wouldn't be able to function and wouldn't be able to take care of the kids.

所以我在她去世前几天就开始在情感上逐渐抽离。

So I began sort of almost like a few days before to remove myself emotionally.

而且

And

我必须这么做，因为以我的性格，我会被那个时刻折磨得无法承受。

I had to do it because knowing me, I would have been plagued with that moment.

我会把那个时刻深深埋进心里，那样我就无法照顾孩子们了。

I would have taken that moment into my body, and I wouldn't have been able to take care of the kids.

所以我开始抽离自己，我觉得这才是更大的失败。

So I started to remove myself and I feel that's the bigger failure.

某种程度上，这或许算是一种成功，因为我能够强迫自己振作起来，照顾孩子，并开始规划我们新的生活。

I suppose in some ways it's a success because I was able to, you know, steal myself and get on and take care of the kids and start to figure out how we were gonna organize our new life.

但那实在太痛苦了，我根本无法陪在她身边。

But it was so awful that I just couldn't be there for it.

我记得当时坐在我们家的露台上，望着远方。

And I remember being on our patio and looking.

我能看到我们的主卧，那里有个阳台，我记得她去世时，房间里有朋友在，很特别的是，所有在场的都是女性——我的继女、一位是我们朋友的护士，她正在给她注射吗啡，还有其他几位朋友。

I could see our master bedroom, there was a balcony and I remember when she passed away, there were friends there and it was interesting because they were all women who were in the room with her, my stepdaughter and a friend of ours who's a nurse who was administering morphine to her and a couple other friends.

我记得她们，我当时站在

And I remember them, I was standing on

阳台上，和其他朋友在一起，我记得法式门被打开，床单被掀开，救护车到了，所有窗户都打开通风，仿佛让空气进入房间，也像是在送她离开。

the patio with other friends, and I remember the French doors being opened and the sheets being taken off the bed, and the ambulance had come, and all the windows being opened and aired out, like letting air into the room and almost like letting her out.

我再也没有见过她。

I never saw her again.

我想，想要救她、想帮她，

I think wanting to save her trying to help,

但你就是无能为力，然后你只会感到无比痛苦。

and you just can't do it, and then you just feel awful.

我现在对这件事好受一点了，但当时的愧疚感太深重了，我无法在场，也无法救她。

I'm a little better about it now, but the guilt was so profound that I couldn't be there and that I couldn't save her.

是的。

Yeah.

我很难过。

I'm so sorry.

我很难过。

I'm so sorry.

哦，谢谢你。

Oh, thank you.

谢谢。

Thanks.

你有没有和凯特谈过这件事，谈过你情感疏远的原因？还是说那时已经来不及了？

Were you able to talk to Kate about that, about the reason for your emotional distancing, or was it kind of beyond that point?

没有。

No.

那时她已经不太清醒了。

She wasn't really terribly cognizant at that point.

所以没有。

So no.

最近，几年前，我一位非常好的朋友去世了。

Recently, a few years ago, a very good friend of mine died.

我的朋友史蒂夫·布斯密，他的妻子乔，我们三个人非常非常亲密。

My friend Steve Buscemi, his wife, Joe, and we were all very, very close.

她因癌症去世，我飞到纽约去看她，那时她瘦得厉害，只是躺在那里，朋友们都在，你走进房间看到她，偶尔她能听到你，可能会说点什么。

And she died of cancer, and I went to flew to New York to see her, and she was so thin and she was just sort of laying and friends were there and you'd sort of go into the room and see her and every now and again she might hear you and she might say something.

但史蒂夫非常勇敢，他一直陪在她身边，直到她一点点地离去。

But Steve was so brave and he was with her until the very end as she literally just faded away.

我觉得他的勇气简直令人难以置信。

And I thought that bravery was just incredible.

他那种我完全不具备的平静感，我一点都没有。

And his sense of peace that that he had that I in no way had, I didn't have that at all.

几个月、几年里，我一直幻想她会回来。

For months, for years, I kept imagining that she would come back.

我到现在还觉得自己看到了她。

I still think I see her.

我仍然会梦到她。

I still dream about her.

在梦里她对我并不友好，这让我非常难过。

She's not very nice to me in the dreams, which is very upsetting.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yeah.

她总是让我醒来，感觉特别糟糕。

She's I have to wake up and I feel so awful.

对吧？

Right?

她总是对我很冷漠，而我却特别高兴见到她。

She just is very dismissive of me, and I'm so happy to see her.

这些梦太真实了。

Know, the dreams are so real.

她总是和别人在一起，或者根本对我没兴趣，我就想，为什么呢？

And she's like, and then she's always she's either with somebody else, or she's just not really interested, which I think I'm like, but why?

为什么我不能做个特别美好的梦呢？

Why can't I have a really nice dream?

我在笑，但其实就像往伤口上撒盐一样。

So I'm laughing, but it's like it's sort of just like, you know, salt in the wound.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

在我看来，这似乎反映了你内心的愧疚和自我厌恶。

I mean, that sounds to me like a representation of your own guilt and your own self loathing.

那是你在投射自己的情绪。

That's that's you projecting.

这并不是她真正想传达的信息。

That's not actually a message from her.

不。

No.

我觉得你可能是对的。

I think you're probably right.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

你相信任何形式的来世吗？

Do you believe in an afterlife in any form?

不。

No.

但正如威利·艾伦所说，我带了换洗的内裤。

But as Willie Allen said, I am bringing a change of underwear.

不太算。

Not really.

不。

No.

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

凯特去世时，你的孩子们多大了？

So how old were your children when Kate died?

卡米拉七岁，双胞胎九岁。

Camilla was seven, and the twins were nine.

在经历如此创伤之后，你是如何继续生活的？

And how do you continue functioning after something that traumatic?

你如何面对这种悲痛并抚养孩子？

How do you live with that grief and raise your children?

你是怎么做到的，斯坦利？

How did you do it, Stanley?

你不能害怕寻求帮助，但你也必须知道何时让别人保持距离。

You can't be afraid to ask for help, and yet you have to know when to tell people to sort of keep their distance.

孩子们立刻去接受了心理治疗。

The kids went to therapy straight away.

关键是拥有一个能够帮助你应对家庭和朋友的社群。

It's really about having a community that's going to help you in meeting family and friends.

这真的非常重要，但你必须自己来构建这个体系，因为每个人处理悲伤的方式都不同，而且每个成年人都和凯特有着不同的关系。

That's really, really important, but you have to be the one to structure that because everybody deals with grief differently, and everybody had a different relationship with Kate, meaning the adults.

有时候人们会倾向于美化逝者，陷入失去亲人时那种感伤的情绪中，而有些人则恰恰相反，会硬撑着，强忍悲痛，一副坚忍的样子。

And sometimes people will have a tendency to romanticize a person, to sort of play into the sort of more maudlin aspects of loss, and some people will do the opposite and sort of like, you know, buck up, stiff upper lip, and all that.

所以你必须自己来调节和掌控这一切，然后为孩子们建立一个新的生活结构，因为孩子需要并渴望结构。

So you have to be the one to kind of regulate that and oversee it, and then you have to create a new structure for them because kids need and want structure.

所以第一件事就是雇一些人来帮我打理家务，我也知道我将很长一段时间不工作。

So the first thing was to hire people who would be able to help me run the household, and I also knew that I wasn't going to work for a long period of time.

我会待在家里，帮助大家重回正轨，然后我再回去工作。

That I was just gonna stay home, get everybody back on track, and then I'd be able to go to work.

幸运的是，我在经济上能够做到这一点。

And luckily, I was able to do that financially.

最重要的事情就是保持结构。

Those are the most important things, is to keep a structure.

很多方面还是沿用原来的结构，但正如我所说，要引入新人，并始终鼓励他们谈论这件事。

A lot of it is the same structure, but as I said, with new people and always encouraging them to talk about it.

在那种必要的务实态度和照顾孩子的同时，你有没有留出空间来处理自己的情绪？

And did you have space within that necessary pragmatism and caring for your children to process your own feelings at some point?

还是说，你把这件事推迟了，结果多年后才突然爆发？

Or was it one of those things that you delayed and that kinda hit you years later?

没有。

No.

它一直在不断冲击我。

It kept hitting me.

我确实找心理医生聊过一点，你知道的，就是那种治疗师。

I did speak to a therapist, you know, with shrink about it, a little bit.

但困难的是，他们总说，你知道的，你正在哀悼。

But the hard thing was, you know, they say, well, you know, you're grieving.

然后你就说，是的。

And you go, yeah.

不。

No.

我知道。

I know.

我知道，我知道我在哀悼。

I know I know I'm grieving.

你明白吗？

You know?

嗯，这些事情，你知道的，你能说什么呢？

Well, these things you know, what are you gonna say?

我的意思是，你能说的其实很有限。

I mean, there's really only so much you can say.

我想，是的，你确实会经历那五个阶段的哀悼或失去，对吧？

And I guess, yes, you do go through those five stages of grief or loss or you know?

但你确实得真正经历这些阶段。

But you kind of have to really go through them.

我经常独自哭泣，把孩子哄睡后，然后一个人慢慢崩溃一会儿。

I cried a lot by myself and put the kids to bed and then just sort of go and fall apart for a bit.

整理她所有的物品非常艰难。

It was very hard to go through all of her belongings.

即使过了这么多年，我仍然保留着一些她的东西，就是舍不得丢掉。

I still, how many years later, have things of hers that I just can't get rid of.

这花了好多年。

It's taken years.

甚至最近这几年，翻看照片、整理物品之类的，你知道，你还是会半夜在办公室、在花园后面独自崩溃。

And even here recently and, you know, in the last couple years going through photos and going through objects and whatever, you know, you end up just falling apart in the middle of the night in my office, you know, in the back of the garden by myself.

我很幸运。

I've been very lucky.

我有那么多朋友，那么多善良的人帮助我。

I had so many people, so many wonderful friends help me.

我的父母非常了不起。

My parents were incredible.

我的继女也很棒。

My stepdaughter was great.

关键就是坚持下去，最终不要责怪自己，也不要陷入幸存者内疚。

And it's really just a matter of just pushing through it and eventually not blaming yourself and not having that survivor's guilt.

凯特是个什么样的人？

What was Kate like?

她太棒了。

She was amazing.

她非常害羞，极其聪明，博览群书，是个出色的骑手，热爱大自然，讨厌穿鞋，讨厌化妆，也不喜欢盛装打扮。

She was very shy, she was incredibly smart, very well read, she was a great equestrian, she loved the out of doors, She hated wearing shoes, and she hated makeup, and she hated dressing up.

这和我完全相反。

The complete opposite of me.

我不喜欢化妆，但我喜欢打扮，也喜欢穿鞋。

I don't like to wear makeup, but I like to dress up and wear shoes.

我觉得如果可以的话，我会穿着鞋睡觉。

I think I would sleep in my shoes if I could.

她是一位了不起的母亲。

She was an amazing mother.

她是个非常棒的厨师。

She was a really great cook.

她成为了一名社会工作者，后来还取得了调解员的资格证书。

She became a social worker, and then she got her certificate as a mediator.

她第一次怀孕，和我的继子女一起组建家庭时，原本想学习国际法。

She wanted to study international law when she first got pregnant with her first kids with my stepchildren.

但她为了生两个孩子，放弃了这个梦想。

And she gave up that dream to have two kids.

她想学习国际法，并希望在巴勒斯坦人和以色列人之间进行调解。

And she wanted to study international law, and she wanted to mediate between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

那是她的梦想。

That was her dream.

她的思维非常深刻，而她的丈夫却只想让人发笑。

Her thinking was very high powered as opposed to her husband who just wanted to make people laugh.

我正想说，这让我们其他人所做的一切都显得有了一种新的视角。

I was about to say that puts what the rest of us do into some kind of perspective.

知道。

Know.

我知道。

I know.

我曾经对她说过，凯特，你知道吗，你真的太了不起了。

I said to her once, I said, Kate, you know, you're really so amazing.

你帮助了那么多人。

You help so many people.

你总是想帮助那么多人。

You want to help so many people.

你是个伟大的母亲。

You're a great mother.

你是个很棒的朋友，你知道的。

You're a great, you know, friend.

你太了不起了。

You're amazing.

我说，我还能做什么呢？就是给数百万人带来欢乐。

I said, what do I do but bring joy to millions?

天啊。

God.

我的意思是，我在为这次采访做研究时发现的一件事是，凯特在你和费利西蒂的生活中始终占有一席之地，家里到处都是她的照片。

I mean, one of the things that I loved finding out when I was researching for this interview is that Kate is very much part of your life with Felicity in the there are photographs around.

你经常提到她。

You talk about her a lot.

我觉得这非常美好，当你再婚时，这种关系在某些时候可能很难处理。

And I think that's a very beautiful thing, and it must have at points been potentially a tricky dynamic to navigate that when you get remarried.

你在某种程度上会因为所谓的‘向前看’而感到内疚吗？

Did you feel at any level guilty for, quote, unquote, moving on?

天哪。

Oh my god.

是的。

Yes.

非常内疚。

Terribly guilty.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，很长一段时间。

I mean, for a long time.

这对菲莉西蒂来说并不容易。

It was not easy for felicity.

你知道，这非常艰难。

You know, it was very hard.

一开始，孩子们通常会很接受，但随后他们会开始疏远，然后一个会接受，另一个不会，还有一个会。

At first, kids will be really accepting, and then they'll start to push away, and then one will be accepting, and one won't be, and one will be.

我也是这样的。

And I was the same.

我的意思是，我一开始会特别温柔、充满爱意，但随后我会退缩，因为我感到内疚。

I mean, I'd be so sort of, you know, loving and affectionate, and then I would pull away because I would feel guilty.

第一次离开凯特去度假，我感觉很奇怪。

I felt strange going away for the first time on vacation without Kate.

一切都开始变得奇怪。

Everything started to feel strange.

但菲莉西蒂对我和孩子们都极其耐心和关爱，她教会了我们，不必感到愧疚。

But Felicity was so amazingly patient and loving to both me and the kids that she taught us that you don't have to feel bad.

这没关系。

It's okay.

她永远是你生命的一部分，但生活必须向前走。

And she's always a part of your life, but things have to move forward.

你可以记住那个人，但不能将她理想化。

You can remember the person, but you can't romanticize the person.

而这才是关键所在。

And that is really the key thing.

有些家庭成员就是这样做的，但这根本不好。

And there were family members who did that, and that's just not good.

这不健康。

It's not healthy.

但菲莉西蒂太棒了。

But Felicity was amazing.

在很多方面，她都像凯特。

And in so many ways, she's like Kate.

她非常有爱心，是个很好的倾听者，极其耐心，说话前会深思熟虑，不像她丈夫。

She's very loving, is a great listener, very patient, thinks before she speaks unlike her husband.

她是一位了不起的继母，了不起的母亲，而且在她所做的事情上极其出色。

And it's just an amazing stepmom, amazing mom, and brilliant at what she does.

听到你谈论菲莉西蒂和凯特，真是太好了。

So wonderful hearing you talk about both Felicity and Kate.

我真的非常感谢你如此慷慨地谈论这些。

And I can't thank you enough for being so generous as to talk about that.

我知道这会帮助到很多人。

I know it will help a great many people.

你知道那种深夜刷手机的时候，突然看到一件你一直在找的东西，立刻就想下单购买吗？

You know those times late at night when you're scrolling and you see something online that you've been looking for and you just need to buy it right there and then.

你点开链接，加进购物车，正要结账时，却突然发现卡片根本不在身边，又不想从床上爬起来。

You click on the link, you add it to cart before hitting checkout, but then that sinking feeling as you realize you don't have your card anywhere near and don't want to get out of bed.

但就在那时，你看到了它。

But that's when you see it.

那个紫色的支付按钮，保存了你所有的信息，只需轻点一下屏幕就能轻松完成结账。

That purple pay button that has all of your information saved, making checking out as simple as a quick tap of your screen.

Shopify 是全球数百万企业的电商平台，拥有众多优势。

Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and has so many benefits.

你可以搭建自己的设计工作室，使用 Shopify 的 AI 工具自动生成产品描述，甚至优化产品摄影。

You can set up your own design studio, use Shopify's AI tools that write product descriptions, and even enhance your product photography.

你可以像拥有一个营销团队一样推广你的产品，轻松创建针对客户浏览或闲逛时所在平台的电子邮件和社交媒体活动。

You can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you, easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling.

减少购物车放弃率，提升销量。

See fewer carts go abandoned and more sales.

立即行动。

Go.

今天就前往 shopify.co.uk/fail 注册每月一英镑的试用版。

Sign up for your one pound per month trial today at shopify.co.uk/fail.

前往 shopify.co.uk/fail。

Go to shopify.co.uk/fail.

化妆一直对我很重要，但说实话，我实在受不了那种厚重、全套妆容、47步的繁琐流程。

Makeup has always mattered to me, but honestly, I cannot be dealing with that heavy, full glam, 47 step routine.

我想要的是快速、简单、不需要我瞬间变成专业化妆师的产品，这就是我如此痴迷于Jones Road Beauty的奇迹膏的原因。

I want stuff that's quick, easy, and doesn't require me to suddenly become a professional makeup artist, which is why I am obsessed with Jones Road Beauty's Miracle Balm.

它真的彻底改变了我的化妆体验。

It's genuinely a total game changer.

它基本上是你一站式全能膏。

It's basically your all in one, do everything pot.

你可以用它当高光、修容、腮红，甚至当唇彩。

You can use it as a highlighter, bronzer, blush, even a lip tint.

它是终极的低努力多任务神器。

It's the ultimate low effort multitasker.

作为皮肤敏感的人，我特别喜欢它的配方富含对皮肤有益的成分，能滋养肌肤而非厚重堆积。

And as someone with quite sensitive skin, I love that the formulas are full of skin loving ingredients, so it nourishes rather than cakes.

而且这还不只是奇迹膏。

And it's not just the Miracle Balm.

他们的Just Enough隔离霜涂在脸上感觉像什么都没抹一样，效果绝佳。

Their just enough tinted moisturizer feels like nothing on your skin in the best possible way.

此外，他们刚推出了眼影棒，我已经把它牢牢粘在化妆包里了。

Plus, they've just launched their eyeshadow stick, which is already glued to my makeup bag.

轻松、精致、经皮肤科医生测试。

Effortless, polished, dermatologist tested.

就是对。

Just yes.

现代妆容，纯净、精准且多功能，让日常护理轻松无负担。

Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic, and multifunctional for effortless routines.

限时优惠：我们的听众在首次购买时，使用代码 FAIL 结账，即可免费获得一款闪亮面部精油。

For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free shimmer face oil on their first purchase when they use code FAIL at checkout.

请前往 jonesroadbeauty.com，并在结账时使用代码 FAIL。

Just head to jonesroadbeauty.com and use code FAIL at checkout.

购买后，他们会询问你是从哪里了解到他们的。

After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them.

请支持我们的节目，并告诉他们是我们推荐的。

Please support our show and tell them that we sent you.

在罗斯·弗罗斯特身上，你知道的还有很多事情。

And there are many things that you know about in Rosie Frost.

其中一件事，你非常动人地写到了她母亲的离世。

And one of them, you write very movingly about her mom dying.

是的。

Yeah.

对你来说，是你爸爸，是的。

And for you, it was your dad Yeah.

在成长的关键年龄。

Of formative age.

我可以问一下，你把多少这种经历写进了文字里？你觉得这样写有疗愈作用吗？

Do you mind my asking how much of that you brought into the text and did you find it cathartic?

说来有趣，悲伤这东西很奇怪，死亡终将发生在我们每个人身上，只是我们不知道何时罢了。

It's funny, mean, grief is a strange thing and death, it's gonna happen to all of us at some point in our life, we just don't know when.

我年轻时意识到，我没有合适的工具来谈论它，只是内心留下了一种冰冷的感觉——我不想让任何人感到尴尬，所以我不知道该如何表达我的感受。

And what occurred to me when I was younger, that I didn't have the tools to talk about it and I was just sort of left with this stone cold feeling of, I didn't wanna make anyone feel awkward so I didn't have the right tools to express how I was feeling.

还有，你知道的，英国人那种克制隐忍，而东方人过去更愿意谈论这些，但这也让我对自己的生命有了更真切的体会。

And also, you know that British stiff upper lip and whereas in the East, they used to talk about it, they're much more But it also gave me a sense of my own mortality.

我想在叙事中非常含蓄地表达这一点。

I wanted to put that in the narrative very subtly.

所以如果你不想看这些，你也可以忽略，但它们就在那里，如果你愿意的话。

So if you don't care about looking at that, you won't but it's there if you want it.

所以如果有人正在经历悲伤，让我们看看它是什么样子，仔细观察一下，罗西正在经历这一切，她并不完美，甚至可能变得愤怒、冷漠或疏离。

So if anybody's having grief, let's look what it looks like, examine it and Rosie is going through that, not perfectly, quite angry if it can make you angry or cold or detached.

所以我希望把这些融入进去，还有一件事特别有趣，我直到写完才意识到自己这么做了，对吧？

So I wanted to put that in there and the other thing that was really interesting and I didn't know I did it until I finished it, right?

所以我最后才写了序言和第一章，我的美国出版商企鹅出版社——我有两家出版商，美国和英国的，都很棒。

So I wrote the prologue and the first chapter last, the publisher Penguin, the American, because I had two publishers, American and British and they're both amazing.

但她对我说：你能不能再多补充一点罗西的背景，讲讲她到血石岛之前的情况，她来自哪里？

But she said to me, can you just give a bit more backstory of Rosie before she gets there, before she gets to Bloodstone Island and where she came from.

那所学校就在那里，

And that's where the school is,

血石岛？

Bloodstone Island?

是的，血石岛是一所学校，我们稍后再聊，但在她去那里之前，她上的是另一所普通的学校，你会看到她身上发生了什么——她正在上课时被突然叫出去，被告知母亲去世了。这正是我经历过的，只不过当时去世的是我父亲。我当时正在研读《哈姆内特》，写完之后，直到回头审视，我才意识到：我写的东西，其实都是我自己的经历。

Yeah, Bloodstone Island is this school and we can talk about it in a minute but before she gets there, she's at a different school, just an ordinary school and you see what happens to her, how she gets pulled out of school in the middle of a class and told that her mother is dead, that's what happened to me but it was my father that was dead and I was studying Hamnet at the time and after I finished it and it wasn't until I looked back, I realized I've written about what I know, my own experience.

我想，天哪。

I thought, oh my God.

所以这真的很有趣，我们自然而然地把粪便转化为肥料，这么说吧。

So it's really interesting that was naturally, I think we turn our poop to fertilizers, so to speak.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得你会说痛苦转化为艺术，但我更喜欢说粪便转化为第一流的东西。

I think you're gonna say pain into art but I much prefer poop into first like something.

是的，而且它很有用。

Yes, and it's useful.

是的。

Yes.

一切皆可借鉴。

Everything is copy.

一切皆是复制。

Everything is copy.

是复制。

Is copy.

我相信，一切都有其意义。

And everything, I believe, can have meaning.

随着时间的推移，你可以掌控自己赋予事物的意义。

You can be in control of the meaning that you attach to something in the fullness of time.

首先，我非常抱歉你经历了那样的遭遇。

I'm so sorry, first of all, that you went through that experience.

如果你没有谈论它，你是如何度过悲痛的？

If you weren't talking about it, how did you get through the grief?

对于正在经历这种深切悲痛的任何人，你现在会给出什么建议？

And what advice would you give now to anyone who might be listening who is in the depths of that kind of grief?

悲痛是一种非常奇怪的东西，每个人都不一样，我肯定没有完美的答案。

Just grief is this very strange thing and everyone, I don't have the perfect answer, that's for sure.

我的经验是时间，听起来可能像老生常谈，但确实如此。

What my experience is time and it sounds like a cliche but it's true.

它不会让事情变好，但会让它变得更容易承受；我觉得和那些可能理解你经历的人分享，是有帮助的。

It doesn't make it better but it makes it easier and to sharing, I think with people that might know what you're going through, I think that's helpful.

我想说的是，你并不孤单。

That's what I would say is you're not alone.

你父亲是在你……之前去世的吗？

Did your dad die before

是的，我有这种感受，这也是另一件事：年轻时失去父母其实有一个积极面，我称之为‘死亡能量’。

you were Yes and I feel and this is the other thing, there is one upside of losing a parent when you're young and I call it death energy.

如果我不曾领悟生命的珍贵，我想我不会像现在这样有动力。我认为，失去父母不仅意味着失去一个人，更会让你突然意识到自己的死亡——因为在那之前，你总觉得父母挡在你和死亡之间。

I don't think I would be as driven as I was if I didn't understand the value of life and I think we're losing a parent, not only are you losing someone but you suddenly become aware of your own mortality because before then you think, oh, I've got my parent between me and my own death.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know I mean?

或者，哪怕我做任何事，都知道父母还在，但当他们不在了，你就会突然直面自己的未来，直面未知。

Or even if I'm, whatever I do, know my parents there and so when that is removed, you're suddenly staring in the face of your own whatever's in front of you and the unknown.

是的，我称之为死亡能量，它就像我油箱里的燃料，我必须继续生活下去。

Yeah, I call it death energy, it's like a gas in my tank, I I I've gotta get on with life.

你觉得他会怎么看待这件事？

What do you think he would have made of it?

或者

Or

这很有趣，因为我觉得我父亲很喜欢老好莱坞。

It's interesting because I think, you know, my father was he was into, like, old Hollywood.

他给我介绍了大量的音乐和文学作品。

He introduced to me so much music and literature.

而且，你知道，我小时候他还想把我培养成雪莉·坦普尔那样的人。

And, you know, he tried to make me, like, into Shirley Temple when I was a little girl.

所以，我相信他一定会非常欣慰。

So, you know, I'm sure he'll be very, like, pleased.

我以前常常想，为了他而做这些事。

I used to, you think, you know, think about him doing it for him.

但事实上，随着我长大，时间一久，你就觉得算了。

But actually, as I grew older, just time, you say, okay.

我为什么要这么做？

Why am I doing it?

我这是为谁做的？

And who am I doing this for?

这就像任何人所做的任何工作一样。

It's like any job that anybody's doing.

你这么做是为了什么？

What are you doing it for?

又是为了谁？

And for whom?

为什么？

And why?

我想跟你们聊聊一个对我来说意义非凡的播客，我简直不敢相信它已经推出一年了。

I wanna tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart, and I cannot believe it already came out a year ago.

你们可以通过订阅 binge 播客频道来免费收听。

And you can all go listen to it ad free by subscribing to the binge podcast channel.

什么播客，科琳？

What podcast, Corinne?

告诉我们吧。

Tell us.

哦，它叫《Blink》，杰克·哈德尔的故事。

Oh, it's called Blink, Jake Handle's story.

我创作了这个播客，讲述我认识的一个叫杰克的男人，他是唯一一位因海洛因使用引发的致命脑部疾病而幸存下来的人，但其中还涉及大量谜团、医疗过失和真实犯罪元素，非常令人震惊和意外，甚至还有一些超自然元素。

I created it about a man named Jake who I met who is the only survivor of a terminal brain illness brought on by heroin use, but there is a lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising and even some supernatural elements.

所以这绝对是一个精彩的故事。

So this is definitely an amazing story.

而且它

And It's

非常独特。

very unique.

把这个故事讲得如此精彩，并与全世界分享。

Did such an incredible job telling the story and sharing it with the world.

如果你还没听过，天哪。

So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness.

你到底去哪儿了？

Where have you been?

因为《Blink》真的太棒了。

Because Blink is so freaking good.

谢谢。

Thank you.

在你听播客的任何平台搜索《Blink》，订阅 binge 的用户可以免费收听整季内容。

Search for Blink wherever you listen, and subscribers to the binge will get the entire season ad free.

此外，你还能独家访问 binge 播客频道上六十多个其他真实犯罪故事。

Plus, you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on the binge podcast channel.

在 Apple 播客上订阅，或访问 getthebinge.com。

Hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com.