加速学习与提升认知能力 | 托米·伍德博士

所以啊，在自己客厅里一个人跳舞，特别推荐。

So, like, dancing on your own in your living room, highly encouraged.

对吧？

Right?

这是种特别好的锻炼方式。

It's a great form of physical activity.

而且还特别有趣。

It's fun.

当然，最有说服力的证据来自交谊舞和队列舞，这两种舞蹈通常都需要配合他人。针对老年人的研究荟萃分析显示，交谊舞和队列舞对认知功能的提升效果最明显。

You know, of course, the the best evidence is for ballroom and line dancing, which generally requires and so there are meta analyses of these interventions in older adults showing that ballroom and line dancing have the greatest effect on cognitive function.

这两种舞蹈都需要和别人一起跳，而且还要学各种动作组合。

So And both of those require other people Mhmm.

你不仅要学习新动作，还要社交互动，再加上身体锻炼，三者都有了。

As well as learning, you know, various sets of of movement.

所以你既有技能学习，又有社交互动，还有运动的成分。

So you have a you have skill learning, you have social interaction, and you have the physical activity component.

还有音乐这一块，你得跟着节奏听音乐，这本身也是一门本事。

There's probably also the musical component where you have to listen for the timing of the music and those kinds of things that that is its own skill set.

所以跳舞背后有大量的研究支持。

So dancing has a large body of evidence behind it.

但在运动领域，还有各种球类、板类、团队运动。

But then I think, you know, in the exercise realm, you've got all the sort of ball sports, board sports, team sports.

滑板就是个很好的例子，只要戴好头盔，别老摔着头就行。

I think skateboarding would be a great example as long as you wear a helmet and don't hit your head too often.

大部分武术也一样，只要不是被人老往脸上揍。

Most martial arts, again, as long as somebody's not punching you in the face too much.

比如巴西柔术。

Something like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，这既有身体上的成分，也有复杂的运动技能，通常还包含社交因素，你需要不断应对环境或对手的变化，这又牵扯到信息处理速度的问题。

So like your there's a physical component, there's a complex motor skill component, usually there's a social component, there's a lot of responding reactants to the environment or your opponent, right, so then talking about processing speed again.

但除此之外，还有一些关于其他创意艺术的有趣研究，显示它们确实能影响大脑网络的稳定性和功能，特别是前额顶叶网络——这个网络对专注力和注意力至关重要，而它的功能往往会随年龄增长而下降。

But then beyond that, there's some really interesting data on some other creative arts that do seem to have some effect on, you know, network stability and function in the brain, particularly the networks like the frontal parietal network that we know is really important for, like, focus and attention, and its function does tend to decrease with age.

比如创意美术或视觉艺术，可能和学习语言有类似的效果。

So things like creative or visual arts, maybe some similar effects of learning a language.

同样，学习玩电子游戏也会带来类似的好处。

Again, similar effects from learning to play video games.

当然，这些活动没有大范围的肢体动作，但你需要解决复杂问题，快速应对不断变化的环境，诸如此类的事情。

Yes, Of course, there's no, like, big motor patterns involved, but you're having to do you know, solve complex problems, you know, react quickly to to a changing environment, that that kind of stuff.

所以，这已经列出了八九种不同的选择，人们都可以试试看。

So that's, you know, eight or nine different things that that somebody could try.

只要其中一项，就能带来新的技能、新的刺激，通常还发生在社交场景里，多种事情同时进行。

And, like, just one of those, I think, is gonna be a new skill, a new stimulus, often happens in a social environment, a number of different things happening at the same time.

有什么特别推荐的乐器吗？

Any particular instruments?

我觉得还没人研究过不同乐器之间的区别。

I don't think anybody's looked at instruments, like, the difference in different instruments.

所以我的看法是，没有。

So I would say, no.

选一个你真正有兴趣、有动力去学的乐器就行。

Pick pick one that you would that you feel motivated and interested to learn.

对。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

一个人跳舞，尴尬感会低一些。

Dancing by oneself has a lower shame quotient.

嗯，尴尬感这事儿，可能确实挺重要的。

Well, the shame quotient, think, might be might be important.

对吧？

Right?

学东西的时候，犯错带来的不适感是存在的，而我们知道，这种不适对学习其实特别关键。

There's the, you know, there's the the discomfort of making mistakes, and we know how critical that is for learning.

所以我觉得，某种程度上，这种感觉也可能挺有帮助的。

And so, like, you're I think, some of that can be important too.

但如果你在课堂上做，大家都是新手，一起学一起练，反而可能更有趣，因为搞砸了还能互相笑一笑。

But if you do it in a in a class, everybody else is a beginner, you're all doing it together, maybe that adds a fun component because you can laugh at each other when you don't get it right.

你说是吧？

You know?

几年前，我和同事乔什·特尔克内特合写过一篇论文，讨论过一个观点：我们随着年龄增长认知能力下降，可能是因为大脑缺乏新的、复杂的刺激，而这些刺激原本能维持功能、促进神经可塑性。

So a few years ago, I wrote a paper with my colleague, Josh Turknet, about this idea that potentially one of the reasons why we lose cognitive function as we get older is because we stop giving our brain novel inputs or complex inputs that help maintain function drive neuroplasticity.

我觉得成年人之所以不再接触新事物，是因为他们特别受不了自己做不好事情。

And I think one of the reasons that that happens is because adults hate being bad at things.

对吧？

Right?

你刚才是不是就突然想到这个了？

You just like this thought, right, you you you just imagined it.

对吧？

Right?

我报了个舞蹈班，肯定跳得一塌糊涂。

I'm in a dance class, and I'm gonna suck at dancing.

对吧？

Right?

我打算带我妻子去上探戈课。

I I imagine that I'm gonna take my wife to to a tango class.

这事儿我一直想试试。

It's something I've always wanted to do.

但第一次去的时候，我想象自己会像《真实的谎言》里的阿诺德和杰米·李·柯蒂斯那样手忙脚乱。

But when I go in the first time, I imagine I'm gonna be like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jamie Lee Curtis in True Lies.

你看过那部电影吗？

Do you ever see that movie?

反正一开始，他们俩是特工，在一个黑帮大佬的豪宅里跳探戈。

But, anyway, so right at the beginning, they're, like, they're spies, and they're doing the tango at this, you know, like, gangster's mansion or something.

他就这么把她往后仰。

And it's like, he leans her over.

她用嘴叼起了桌上的玫瑰。

She grabs the rose from the table in her in her mouth.

我要是这么干，准得把老婆摔了，她还非得撞上哪儿不可。

Like, I'm gonna try that, and I'm gonna drop my wife, and she's gonna hit her.

她肯定生我气，周围那么多人看着，我得多丢人啊。

She's gonna be mad at me, and lots of people are gonna see, and I'm gonna feel stupid.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们就都不敢去试这些事。

And so that's why we don't do those things.

但要想激活神经可塑性，犯错是关键，咱们得学会放下成年人那种包袱。

But it's so critical to driving those processes of of neuroplasticity that we make those mistakes that we have to kind of let go of some of that that we feel as adults.

总觉得别人都指望我们样样精通、样样第一，绝对不能出错。

Like, we we think that everybody expects us to be good at everything and the best at everything, and, you know, we shouldn't fail.

我们不应该犯错。

We shouldn't make mistakes.

但正如你多次提到的，这么做其实至关重要。

But as you have covered many times, it's so critical to to do that.

所以我觉得，承认这种羞耻感的存在，并主动面对它，对于长期保持这种能力非常重要。

And so I think acknowledging that shame component exists and leaning into it is gonna be a really important part of trying to maintain this function over time.

我先讲两个小故事，再鼓励大家去学探戈。

Couple of quick anecdotes and then some encouragement to do the tango class.

先说说探戈吧。

I'll start with tango.

我阿根廷那边的祖父母，一直到八十多岁还在跳探戈。

My grandparents on my Argentine side did tango until they're into their 80s.

所以这事儿是能做到的，只是他们学得比较早。

So it can be done, but they learned it rather young.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得蒂姆·费里斯提过他学探戈的事。

And Tim Ferriss, as I recall, talked about his Yeah.

他学的是探戈。

Learned tango.

这就引出了另一个话题，我想聊聊性别差异，以及可塑性实验的结果。

And that gets to the other point, which is I wanna talk about sex differences and results of experiments in plasticity.

但你跳的这种舞，比如萨尔萨、探戈，传统上都是由男性领舞。

But when you dance, the sorts of dances that we're talking about, so salsa, tango, typically, this is, you know, traditionally the male leads.

很多年前，我有个女朋友特别喜欢跳萨尔萨。

Years ago, I had a girlfriend who was really into salsa.

有天晚上，我和她一起去湾区跳萨尔萨。

So I went salsa dancing with her in the Bay Area one night.

如果你不太会跳，这事儿其实挺尴尬的，因为你等于带着女朋友去跟一堆别的男人跳舞。

And it's a tricky thing if you're not skilled salsa dancer, because basically you're taking your girlfriend to go dance with a bunch of other men.

你懂的。

You know?

直到你真正学会为止。

And then you until you learn.

有些社会因素会让男性比女性更难学会某些类型的舞蹈。

So there are conditions that make it harder, social conditions that make it harder for men to learn than women to learn particular types of dance.

除非像蒂姆那样，找一位女性舞蹈教练来教他领舞，他才学会了领舞，之后就能参加探戈比赛了。

Unless, as Tim did, he got a dance coach, a female dance coach, to teach him how to lead, and then he learned how to lead, and then he was able to dance tango competitively.

我这么记得没错吧，蒂姆？

I think I have that right, Tim.

评论区里可能会有人纠正我，但依我回忆，故事就是这样的。

They'll correct me in the comments, but as I recall, that's the story.

所以情况就是这样。

So there's that.

跟舞本身也不简单，也需要技巧，但要是男方不会领舞，整个舞蹈就进行不下去，对吧？

Not that following is trivial, it requires some skill, but if the person, again, traditionally the male can't lead, the whole thing, it doesn't work, right?

我这么一说，你可能更不敢去上课了，但你还是该去，因为我当博士后时有个室友，是加州大学旧金山分校的神经科住院医师，她常半夜去跳探戈，每次回来都像变了个人。

So I just made you more nervous about going to this class, but you should do it because I had a roommate when I was a postdoc, who's a neurology resident at UCSF, and she would go do tango late at night, and she would come back a different person.

所以这里另一点是，当我们尝试真正全新的、需要与人互动的事情时，如果愿意放下身段、从零开始，就得学会接纳那种尴尬。

And so this is like the other piece here is, you know, it seems that when we are trying something truly new that involves interactions with other people, and we go into that willingness to enter beginner's mind or whatever it is, embrace the shame.

当我们刚开始在某件事上有点进步时，简直就像整个人生都被镀上了一层光环。

And as we start to get even just a little bit better at something, I mean, it almost seems like there's this kind of halo around the rest of our life.

第二天去上班，整个人都不一样了。

We go to work the next day differently.

跟人打交道的方式也变了。

We interact with people differently.

连我们的神经系统都好像被重塑了。

Like our nervous system is changed.

你觉得这到底是什么原因？

What do you think that is?

我们当然可以编些故事，说这是化学物质的作用，也许真该这么想，因为很可能就是这么回事。

I mean, we can make up stories about chemicals, and maybe we should, because they're likely to be true.

你觉得这到底是什么原因？

What do you think that is?

这种整体的兴奋状态变化，比如你睡得更好了，对生活里其他事情也更期待了，当你学探戈、稍微进步一点的时候，就是这种感觉。

That like general change in arousal, like you're sleeping better, you're more excited for the other things in life when you're trying to learn tango and you get just a little bit better.

这到底是什么原因呢？

What is that?

我不会去编什么化学物质的解释。

I don't think I would make up anything about chemicals.

我觉得很多事其实可以归结为一点：我们喜欢把事情做好，喜欢克服困难。

I think you could boil a lot of it down to We like to be good at stuff, and we like to overcome things.

对吧？

Right?

这本质上就是一种渴望被挑战、然后战胜挑战的内在需求。

This is like this this, like, core need to be challenged and then to overcome those challenges.

我觉得如果长期不这么做，会带来很多后续影响，可能跟心理健康有关。

And I think there's a lot of downstream effects of of not doing that, and they could be, you know, related to mental health.

也可能影响身体健康，毕竟我们常谈到身体、认知，或者压力、心理层面的挑战，以及克服它们的过程——因为这才是真正推动身心成长的核心动力。

They could also be related to physical health, right, because we think about physical and and cognitive or or, you know, stressor, psychological related challenges and and the process of overcoming them because that's what really drives, you know, a lot of physical or or mental, psychological growth.

我觉得这其实是每天生活中我们本质上需要的东西。

And I think that's something that, you know, fundamentally is part of what we need on a daily basis.

你做了件自己不擅长的事，然后慢慢变好了，这让你意识到：我其实做得到。

And so you did this thing that you're bad at, and you got better at it, and you proved to yourself, hey, I'm capable.

我能克服困难。

I'm able to overcome challenges.

我能投入进去，把那些难的事给做成。

I'm able to, you know, engage and and and do difficult things.

我觉得这种过程——面对挑战、战胜它、付出努力去完成——带来的心理收益。

And I think the psychological benefits of that, you know, just that process of engaging with a challenge, overcoming it, working hard to do that.

这几乎就是我们内心一种根本的心理需求。

I think that's just, you know, almost like a core psychological need that we have.

对。

Mhmm.

然后这种感觉会延伸到生活的其他方方面面。

And then that transfers to all these other things.

对，没错。

Oh, yeah.

我能搞定这些难事。

I can do these hard things.

我打算去试试那件事。

I'm gonna do that other thing.

我很期待挑战一些新的难题。

I'm excited to try something else that's difficult.

我很期待再次挑战自己。

I'm excited to challenge myself again.

而且这件事得让你觉得有意义，难度也要适中，让你通过专注练习或投入时间就能克服。

And it needs to be something that feels meaningful, feels difficult enough that you have the ability to overcome with some dedicated practice or, you know, focused time working on it.

如果太难了，反而会有反效果。

If it's too hard, you can have the opposite effect.

对吧？

Right?

把事情搞得这么难，别人根本做不到，只能一次又一次地失败。

By making something so difficult, somebody can't do it and they just fail again and again and again and again.

对吧？

Right?

这显然会适得其反。

That that can obviously have the opposite effect.

但如果你知道这事能慢慢练好，能持续投入，能看到进步，那就不一样了。

But something that you know you can get better at, you know you can work on, you can see progress.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得这一切都会带来一连串的连锁反应。

I think all of that then has all these knock on effects.

我们不妨聊聊心流这个概念。

Maybe we could talk about flow for a second.

这大概是神经科学、表现心理学等领域里被用得最滥的词之一了。

You know, one of the most bastardized terms in neuroscience performance, psychology, and the rest.

当初奇克西马希首次提出这个概念时，他定义的流状态是指：你具备一定的技能，但所挑战的事情刚好超出你的能力范围。

When Chiksimahi talked about it initially, when he really defined the term, it was about being engaged in a process where you have a certain level of skill, but the thing you're trying to do is just beyond your skill level.

那种状态其实是一种努力追求的过程，能带来一种整体上的满足感。

So really striving a bit in that kind of general sense of well-being that can come from that.

但现在，人们总觉得流状态就是做一件事时完全感觉不到费力，好像突然获得了什么魔法力量似的。

Nowadays, I think people assume flow is when you are able to do something in the absence of kind of feeling of effort.

这完全背离了‘流’这个概念原本的意思。

It's like you just you you get the magic power kind of thing, which is not what flow was originally intended to to mean.

我想听听你怎么看待‘流’这个概念？它到底有没有实际意义？

I'd like to know how you think of this concept of flow and whether or not it's even a meaningful term.

我非常敬佩史蒂文·科特勒这些人，他们研究并写过关于这个主题的内容，我对史蒂文所做的工作充满尊重。

And I I, you know, I tip my hat to Steven Kotler and others who have written about it and and studied it and a great respect for Steven, what he's done with the concept.

我觉得这个概念本身是有价值的，但问题是我们其实还说不清楚它到底该怎么定义。

And I think it's a meaningful concept, but I don't think we really know how to define it.

这一点在讨论大脑可塑性时特别重要，因为我们在《哈利·波特》、科幻片，还有《搏击俱乐部》这些电影里看到的，都是人只要一心想拥有某种能力，就能瞬间获得，但现实根本不是这样。

And I think this is important in the context of plasticity, because I think what we see in Harry Potter movies and sci fi and, you know, Fight Club and everything else is that suddenly we're just gonna be endowed with these powers just because we want them and need them, and that is not how it works.

是的

Yeah.

所以，心流是技能的体现，还是追求技能的过程？

So is flow an expression of skill or is it the striving to attain a skill?

我觉得心流是某种复杂习得技能的极致发挥。

I think of flow as the maximal expression of a complex learned skill.

就像你说的，你正好处在能力的边缘，却依然能保持稳定发挥，不管你在做哪项技能。

Like you said, you're, like, right at the edge of your capabilities, you're still managing to maintain maintain function, whatever whatever skill it is that you're you're performing at.

让我特别困扰的是，因为对心流的这种理解，很多人就觉得我必须不断去寻找心流。

The thing that really frustrates me is that because of that or, you know, some version of their definition of flow, people like, well, I've always got to search for flow.

好像所有事情都得在心流状态下发生，人得时刻处于心流中，这完全说不通。

Like, everything happens in flow and, like, we need to be in flow all the time, which doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

这个问题其实有两个方面。

There's two different parts of this.

一方面，人们误以为要想达到最佳表现，就必须处于心流状态。

So one is that people assume that for optimal performance, need to be in flow.

这不对。

That is not true.

流动状态只是你发挥最佳能力的一种方式。

Flow is one version of your of your of of being able to, you know, perform at the best of your abilities.

如果我们从体育表现的角度来看，顶级表现通常有两种状态。

If we think about this in terms of sports performance, there might be broadly two states associated with top level performance.

一种是流动状态。

One is flow states.

另一种是关键状态。

The other is clutch states.

在关键状态下，你的兴奋水平依然处于最佳区间——如果我们回顾兴奋度与表现之间的曲线，这一点后面可以再讨论。

And so a clutch state, you are still at the optimal level of arousal, right, if we think about the arousal curve and performance, which we can come back to.

在最佳兴奋水平下，你才能发挥出所需的技能，但在关键状态下，你依然会感觉是在拼命努力。

But so at the optimal level of arousal, which is required for you to perform the skill that you're trying to perform, But when you're in a clutch state, it still feels like hard work.

对吧？

Right?

你可以去问任何一位运动员，他们曾经在表现优异、赢得比赛、发挥出最佳水平的时候，其实那过程特别耗费心力。

So, like, there are you you could talk to any athlete about a time that they they performed well, they won, they, you know, they did the best of their abilities, but it was hard cognitive work.

那也是特别耗费体力的。

It was hard physical work.

整个过程很艰难，但他们还是成功发挥出了水平。

It was a slog, but they still managed to perform well.

这就是所谓的关键时刻状态。

That's a that's a clutch state.

人们完全可以在关键时刻状态下发挥出最佳水平。

And people can perform at the best of their abilities in clutch states.

虽然他们没有进入心流状态，事情也不是顺顺利利就做成了。

And, you know, even though they're not in flow, it's not all coming to them easily.

对吧？

Right?

他们必须高度专注，拼尽全力才能把事情完成。

It requires them to, like, really focus and work hard to get get the job done.

这两种状态都是完全合理的发挥状态。

And both of those are perfectly reasonable states in which to perform.

如果你看看运动员在关键时刻的实际表现，就会发现，非得在心流中才能发挥好，这根本不对。

And assuming that you have to be in flow to perform just isn't true if you look at, like, how, you know, athletes perform in the moment.

另一方面，有些人暗示说，学习或者最佳学习必须在心流中发生，这完全说不通。

The other side of it is that some people have intimated that flow is required for learning or, like, optimal learning happens in flow, which doesn't make any sense.

对吧？

Right?

如果我们说学习需要犯错、需要挫折和摩擦，那这些恰恰不利于心流，因为它们会让人感到压力和沮丧。

If we if we talked about making mistakes and errors and friction required for learning, that is not conducive to flow because it's, it can be stressful, it can be frustrating.

所以反过来讲，心流是展现你现有能力的状态，但如果你想提升这项能力，就必须突破当前的极限，而一旦这么做，你就会离开心流状态——因为过程中必然会有摩擦、错误和挫折。

And so the other side of that is if, you know, flow is expressing your skill, If you want to get better at that skill, you have to work even further beyond your current capacities, which are which will move you out of flow, right, because of, like, the friction, the mistakes, and the errors that come from that.

我觉得心流确实很有趣，我也不是这方面的专家，但除了心流之外，还有很多其他状态同样能促进学习和表现。

So I think, yeah, flow is super interesting, and I I wouldn't pretend to be an expert in flow, but there are all these other states where learning happens, where performance happens, that aren't flow.

这也没问题。

And that's fine too.

对吧？

Right?

但有时候确实很难，这也没关系。

But sometimes it's hard, and that's okay.

很高兴你能来。

I'm so glad you're here.

自从我开始做这个播客以来，我就一直在等这样的对话，因为我完全认同你对心流以及人们对心流误解的看法。

I've been looking for this conversation for well, since I started the podcast because I completely agree about flow and the misunderstanding of the concept of of flow.

我从来没听说过‘关键时刻状态’这种说法。

I've never heard of a clutch state.

这是你自创的术语吗？

Is that a term that you coined or something

不是，这个说法在运动心理学文献里是有提到的，他们会讲……

like No, It's in the sports psychology literature, they'll talk about

关键时刻？对。

clutch Yeah.

因为我对神经可塑性的研究很熟悉，但从来没听过这个说法，也许是我读书不够新，不过谢谢你提到‘临界状态’——就是当你表现很好，但还在不断突破的时候。这个词其实是我自己造的，叫‘边缘摩擦’，意思是你要逼自己一把，感觉被限制住了，正处在那种充满真正挑战的临界点上。

Because I'm very familiar with the neuroplasticity literature, but I've never heard of it, maybe I'm just not up to date on my reading, but thank you for introducing clutch state, which is when one is performing well, but it's evolving, and this is a term I did make up, some limbic friction, like you have to push yourself, you're feeling constrained, it's that you're at that edge where there's real challenge.

你绝对不在心流状态里。

You're definitely not in flow.

对。

Yeah.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

临界状态。

Clutch state.

每个人都该了解它、认识它、接纳它，在人生某个阶段去体验它，这样你会受益终身。

Everyone, learn it, know it, embrace it, live there for some period of time in your life, across your lifespan, and you'll be better off.

我是认真的。

I mean that.

也许我们可以再深入聊聊这个话题，因为在这档播客里，我们已经好几次提到过前扣带回皮层，就是那个在‘超级老人’身上保持活跃、让他们敢于迎接挑战的脑区。

Maybe we could drill into this a little bit more because several times on this podcast or more, we've talked about the anterior mid cingulate cortex, the structure that maintains size and superagers who take on hard things.

这个大脑区域似乎和坚韧有关，一旦被激活，人就会感觉到一场挑战即将来临。

And you know, this area of the brain that seems associated with tenacity, which when stimulated, people feel like an impending challenge.

斯坦福的乔·帕尔维齐确实做过一些神经外科实验。

There's actually neurosurgery experiments done by Joe Parvizi at Stanford.

人们会感觉：哎，一场挑战就要来了。

People feel like, oh, there's an impending challenge.

我会迎上去。

I'm gonna lean into it.

这听起来比流状态更贴近‘临场状态’。

This just sounds more like the clutch state than certainly than flow state.

所以，也许我们该拥抱的，正是这个‘临场状态’。

So maybe the thing we need to embrace is the clutch state.

这词挺朗朗上口的。

It's pretty catchy.

虽然没‘流状态’那么顺口，但我喜欢，因为它自带一种‘摩擦感’。你们是第一次从汤米·伍德那儿听到这个词，不是我发明的。

It's not quite as catchy as flow, but but I I like it because it has an element of like friction kind of written into You heard it first from Tommy Wood folks, not me.

一位来自特种作战部队的好友。

A good friend who comes from the special operations community.

几年前我们聊过表现这件事，他说，人可以分为未熟练、熟练、精通和大师级。

We talked about performance years ago and he said, well, there's unskilled, skilled mastery and virtuosity.

明白了。

Okay,

不错。

cool.

他说，大师级就是那些已经精通的人，主动迈向努力的极限，去拥抱未知。

And he said, virtuosity is when someone who has mastery pushes out to an edge of effort where they're sort of inviting in the unknown.

他们自己也不确定接下来会怎么做。

They don't quite know what they're gonna do next.

但也不是完全没谱，心里还是有个大致方向。

They have some semblance of an idea, like they're not being haphazard.

他们主动接纳未知，结果就突破到了一个新的层次。

But there's an inviting in of the unknown, and they find themselves at a new level.

我可能在最近四期节目里提过这部纪录片四次了。当安迪·施特姆普——那位前顶尖特种部队成员、前翼装飞行运动员、红牛高性能团队的一员——来到这档播客时，

I've probably mentioned this documentary four times in the last four episodes, but when Andy Stumpf, former tier one seal operator came on this podcast, former wing suitor, Red Bull high performance team came on here.

他推荐了一部纪录片，我现在也强烈推荐给大家。这部片子叫《黑暗巫师》，讲的是迪恩·波特。他原本是一名自由攀岩者，后来转做翼装飞行，等等。

He suggested a podcast that I'm now suggest he suggested, excuse me, a documentary that I highly recommend, which is The Dark Wizard, which is about Dean Potter, who is a free climber, a free solo climber turned wing suitor, etcetera.

在那部纪录片里，你能看到一个人如何不断挑战自己的极限，甚至超越极限。当面临死亡的后果时，他能够展现出令人瞠目结舌的技能水平，连他自己都感到惊讶。

And you see in that documentary how somebody who's pushing to their edge, and a little bit beyond where the consequences, the death consequence, is able to access levels of skill that are like jaw dropping, think even to him.

所以

So

这样讲你能理解吗？

does that make sense?

你是不是也是这么看待从生疏、熟练、精通到卓越这几个阶段的？

Like, is that sort of how you think about unskilled, skilled, mastery, virtuosity?

你觉得卓越是不是指，一个人已经彻底掌握了某项技能，然后把自己放到一个完全未知的、结果不可控的环境里去挑战？

Do you think virtuosity is like, where someone is like, alright, I've mastered this thing, now put me in a situation or I'll put myself in a situation where I don't know what's gonna happen.

也许最后会搞砸也说不定。

And maybe it'll all go wrong.

但一旦没出问题，新的表现层次就会出现。

But when it doesn't, new levels of performance emerge.

之所以这么说，是因为人们提到技艺高超的人，往往只是觉得他们比别人强太多了。

As it's described that way because, you know, people might talk about virtuosos in a skill just because, like, they're so much better than everybody else.

对吧？

Right?

但这种定义其实依赖于特定的情境和表现时刻。

But, like, that that that definition requires a specific scenario and moment of performance.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Mhmm.

那听起来跟我理解的心流状态很像。

So then that sounds a lot like how I would think about flow.

没错。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

所以当你去看那些曾经达到过这种境界的人的经典描述时，比如我经常接触一级方程式赛车。

And so, like, when you when you look at some of the classic descriptions from individuals who've been in that kind of level, so, like, there's this one from so I I do a lot of work in Formula One.

其中有一位叫艾尔顿·塞纳的车手说过这样的话。

So there's one from Ayrton Senna where he's

谁？

From who?

不好意思，你说谁？

I'm sorry?

艾尔顿·塞纳。

Ayrton Senna.

就是那个车手？

The driver?

就是那位车手。

The driver.

塞纳。

Senna.

是的。

Yeah.

塞纳，s-e-n。

Senna, s e n.

塞纳，

Senna,

不好意思。

excuse me.

艾尔顿·塞纳。

Ayrton Senna.

塞纳

Senna

大卫·塞纳，一位很棒的播客主持人。

is David Senna, great podcaster.

他是表演、商业和财经播客领域的天才。

He's the he's the virtuoso of performance and business and finance podcasting.

别让

Don't let

任何喜欢F1的朋友听到这一段。

any of your F1 loving friends hear that part of the podcast.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我喜欢塞纳。

I like Senner.

艾尔顿·塞纳，有些人认为他是有史以来最伟大的一级方程式车手。

Essence Senner, some people consider him to be the best Formula one driver of all time.

他不幸在一场车祸中去世。

He died tragically in a in a crash.

但有一句他著名的名言，说的是他在摩纳哥大奖赛上驾驶时，越来越快，越来越快，再快一点。

But there's this famous quote from him where he's driving in the Monaco Grand Prix, and, basically, what he describes is that he's, like, going faster and faster and faster.

他觉得这已经超出了自己的能力范围。

He's like, this is beyond my capabilities.

他根本感觉不到自己真正参与其中。

Like, he doesn't feel like he's actually connected to doing the thing.

一切都像是在不知不觉中发生一样。

It's just kinda, like, happening.

他每圈的时间比别人快了好几秒，就是这么精确。

It's exact it's exact like, he's going seconds faster around the lap than anybody else.

所以他厉害就厉害在这儿。

And so, like, that's kind of what like, he is so good.

对吧？

Right?

他达到了精通的境界。

He achieved mastery.

就在那一刻，他展现的正是这种意义上的卓越技艺。

And then in that in that moment, he's displaying virtuosity in that kind of in that under that kind of definition.

所以呢，这两者之间确实有很多重叠的地方。

And so, like, that that feels like there's a lot of overlap there.

对。

Yeah.

自从看了那部关于黑巫师的纪录片，我就反复看了两遍，因为它涉及心理健康的内容。

Ever since seeing this dark wizard documentary, which I've watched twice all the way through, because it has a mental health component.

这是一部最近上映的、拍得极其出色又唯美的纪录片。

It's a brilliant and beautifully shot documentary recently released.

我一直在不停地思考这种‘精通’的状态。

I think about this virtuosity thing, like constantly.

但我特别喜欢‘关键时刻状态’这个说法，因为在我看来，这正是我们该追求的状态。

But I love this notion of the clutch state because it sounds to me that that's the state that we want to seek.

人们以为顶尖高手总处在放松平和的状态，但我猜他们其实花了大量时间反复练习那些枯燥乏味的基本功，才得以进入那种状态。

And the assumption is that high performers are in this relaxed mellow state, but I'm guessing they spend a significant amount of time there and drilling the really boring stuff to make sure they can get there.

对。

Yeah.

Twyla Tharp，这位八十高龄的世界级编舞家，坐在我现在坐的这把椅子上，描述了她那些顶级舞者每天的日常安排。

Twyla Tharp, who's in her eighties, world class choreographer, sat in the chair that I'm in and described the daily routine of her world class dancers.

他们每天都会反复练习最基础的动作，一练就是好几个小时，直到正式排练开始，对吧？

They go through the most basic drills every single day, but every iteration for hours upon hours upon hours, before they begin practice, right?

在尝试新作品之前，都是这样反复打磨。

Before they try and embrace the new performance piece.

但是

But

一遍又一遍，常常是在几个小时的晨练之后，我们却看不到这些基础训练，也意识不到它们必须持续保持，这就引出一个问题。

over and over and over, often after multiple hours of morning exercise, I think we don't see all of that foundational work and that it needs to be maintained, which raises a question.

我们是否始终都需要坚持练习基本功？

Do we always need to maintain practice the fundamentals?

在回答你的问题之前，我觉得还有一件事值得记住，跟我们刚才说的都有关——在运动员训练中，尤其是体育训练领域，普遍有个‘三分法’的说法。

Before I answer your question, I I think there's there's an another useful thing just kind of to remember that relates to all of this from, you know, in, you know, athletes and sports, particularly in on the training side, there's this general idea of thirds.

对吧？

Right?

你每次训练或学习的三分之一，

A third of your sessions

对，

Mhmm.

都会让你感觉特别棒，

Training, learning, whatever it is, are gonna feel great.

你会觉得状态特别好，

You're gonna feel really good.

东西一下子就掌握了，

You're just gonna get stuff, you know, immediately.

好像自然而然就懂了，

It's gonna just come to you.

另外三分之一则平平无奇，

A third will just be average.

对吧？

Right?

还有三分之一会特别糟，但你还是得到场，把事情做完。

And a third are just gonna suck, and you just have to show up and get it done.

但这些都发生在同一天吗？

But this is all in the same day

不是的。

or this No.

不是。

No.

我的意思是，

Just, like,

是一整周。

the week.

在一周内、几个月里、甚至多年间，这种情况都是起起落落的。

Across across the week, across months, across years, this stuff undulates.

我之所以这么说，主要是因为，人们总是把那种心流状态理想化，觉得这些事就该一直轻松自然地发生。

And the the the main reason why I say that is because related to this sort of glorification of flow is this idea that these things should just, like, always come easily to us.

但这完全违背了我们要通过努力工作和挑战自我来建立能力、促进神经可塑性的理念。

But that's completely antithetical to the idea that we have to work hard and challenge ourselves in order to build capacity, drive neuroplasticity.

所以人们在追求的东西和实际上变好的过程之间，存在一种奇怪的张力，而变好往往意味着日复一日的坚持和积累。

So there's kind of this weird tension between what people are seeking versus what is actually just the part of the the grind of getting better and, you know, over time.

有时候，这确实是一段艰难的历程。

And sometimes it is a grind.

但这没关系，完全可以接受。

And that's, you know, again, that's okay.

这并不代表你做错了。

It doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.

对。

Yeah.

也许这恰恰说明你做对了。

Maybe it means you're doing it right.

当你再考虑到保持基本功这一点时，我觉得，是的。

When you then think about maintaining the fundamentals, I think, yes.

但这可能得看你具体在考虑哪种情况。

But probably it's gonna depend on the scenario that that you're that you're thinking about.

因为有时候你正在练习的技能，其基本功已经融入其中了。

Because sometimes the skill that you're performing, the fundamentals are kind of baked into that in in some way.

所以关键还得看这些基本功到底指的是什么。

So it kinda depends on what the what the fundamentals really are.

比如说，我想起一项关于钢琴家的研究。

Maybe, you know, if it's so I'm thinking about one specific study that was done in in pianists.

这项研究其实和埃里克森对小提琴手的研究有点类似。

So this is kinda it was kind of related to the Ericsson studies in in violinists.

对吧？

Right?

不过这次他们研究的是钢琴家。

But this time, they they were looking at at pianists.

他们一共分了四组，有年长的，也有年轻的。

And so they had four they had four groups, older and younger.

年轻组是二十多岁到三十多岁，年长组是五十多岁到六十多岁，包括专业和业余钢琴家。

So the younger was, like, twenties and thirties, older were fifties and sixties, expert and amateur pianists.

这些专业钢琴家都来自德国的音乐学院。

And so the experts came from German, like, music conservatories.

他们研究了一些基本技能，比如手指的移动，还有弹钢琴时其他一些基本动作。

And then they they looked at sort of basic skills related to, you know, moving the fingers and other things that that you that you would do playing the piano.

这些技能都非常具体，完全围绕钢琴演奏展开。

And so they were sort of, like, very task specific skills related to piano playing.

他们发现，影响钢琴演奏表现的最重要因素不是年龄，而是练习的时长。

And what they found was that the most important predictor of how well somebody performed at those piano specific skills was not their age, it was how much they practice.

也就是说，多练几次，就能更好地保持这些基本能力。

So it's just that getting those reps in helps you maintain those sort of, like, basic functions.

当你演奏特别复杂的钢琴曲时，其实已经把所有这些基本功都包含进去了。

And maybe, right, when you're playing very complex piano pieces, you're encompassing all those fundamentals anyway.

对吧？

Right?

你其实不用每天都练音阶，因为有些东西已经内化了，但你也会看到，有些人热身的时候会做这些练习。

You don't need to you don't need to, like, do your you don't need to do your scales every day because some of that stuff is kinda built in, but you will also see people as they warm up, say.

比如他们可能会练练音阶之类的，这大概就是热身的一部分，或者说是种习惯吧。

You know, maybe they will do scales and things because that's part of just, like, you know, the the warm up maybe part maybe that's routine.

对吧？

Right?

这其实是让我进入状态，准备演奏复杂曲子，但其中一部分也可能只是为了保持那些基本功。

This is me getting in the in in the mode of, you know, playing complex piece, but then maybe some of it is just kind of helping to maintain those fundamental skills.

我想先休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

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AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.

我早在2012年就发现了AG1，那时候还没做播客，从那以后我就每天都在喝。

I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast and I've been taking it every day since.

我开始喝AG1，到现在还坚持每天喝，是因为据我所知，它是市面上质量最高、成分最全面的基础营养补充品。

The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take it every day is because AG1 is to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

AG1 的设计是为了支持肠道健康、免疫系统健康和整体能量水平。

AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy.

它通过弥补你日常饮食中可能存在的营养缺口来发挥作用。

And it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.

我经常被人问，如果只能选一种补充剂，该选哪个？

I get asked pretty much all the time, if I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?

我的答案永远都是 AG1。

And my answer is always AG1.

它对支持身体健康、心理健康和表现提升帮助特别大。

It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance.

如果你想试试 AG1，可以去 drinkag1.com/huberman 领取专属优惠。

If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

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For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new Omega-three Coenzyme Q10 product.

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Omega-three and Coenzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health and energy generally, brain health, and much more.

我本人每天都吃这两种。

I personally take them both every day.

再次提醒，去 drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 就能免费领一瓶新的Omega-3辅酶Q10。

Again, to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new Omega-three Coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.

现在就是你积累一万小时的好机会。

So now's your opportunity to kill the ten thousand hours.

我知道别人也试过，但说到底，这到底意味着什么？

I mean, I know other people have attempted to, but what does that really boil down to?

是不是只要在一段专注的时间里，每天练八个小时，就能让大脑快速重塑，而这正是研究测出的结果？

Is it simply that about eight hours a day of practice for a dedicated period of time is what leads to rapid plasticity and that's what was measured?

还是说，真正关键的其实是处于深度专注状态下的时间积累？

Or is there really some sort of rule about time under seeking clutch state?

简单来说，这项研究发现，当专业小提琴手达到20岁时，平均已经练了一万小时。

The simple answer is what the study showed was that ten thousand hours was the average amount of time that an expert violinist had spent practicing by the time they reached 20 years old.

这就是研究得出的结论。

That's what the study showed.

到那时候，他们还称不上专家呢。

They weren't even experts by that point.

那只是他们在年轻时累计的练习时长，你知道的。

That was how much they'd practiced, you know, essentially in their youth.

所以在这个例子中，一万小时这个数字根本不能直接等同于真正的小提琴专家水平。

So that number of hours doesn't even translate over to true expertise in violinists in this one specific example.

我觉得根本不存在一个固定的小时数要求。

So I don't think there's some fixed number of hours, required.

这倒挺有意思的。

It is interesting.

那项研究的其他部分还分析了这些专家小提琴手的练习安排，结果发现他们通常每天练两次，每次六十到九十分钟。

Other parts of that study kind of looked at the the the practice routines of these expert violinists, and what they found was that they tended to practice for about two sessions of sixty to ninety minutes a day.

我觉得这个规律挺合理的。

And I think that's a pretty good rule.

对吧？

Right?

如果你要做些有挑战性的事，也就是在突破现有的技能水平，那每天专注练个两三次，每次六十到九十分钟，中间休息几次，这大概已经是大多数人能做到的极限了。

If you're gonna do something hard, you're pushing beyond your current skill level, focusing for sixty to ninety minutes maybe with, you know, a couple of breaks in there, a couple of times a day, that's probably about as much as most people can do.

我觉得这也跟我们在生活中其他方面的日常表现有关。

And I think that also relates to how we perform on a day to day basis in other areas of life.

对吧？

Right?

我们总觉得自己能去上班，然后白天一口气高强度工作八个小时，但实际上，大脑并不是这样运作的。

We kind of expect that we can go to work, and we can work really hard for eight hours straight during the day, but, like, the brain doesn't really work like that.

如果我们做的是高强度的脑力工作，对吧？就像你全神贯注、面临很大挑战的时候，比如你是一位未来的小提琴演奏家，正在努力练习、不断挑战自己，那你其实只能坚持二十到三十分钟这样的一小段时间，中间可能需要休息几次。

If we're doing hard, cognitive work, right, you're being you're focused and highly challenged as you might be if you're a, you know, a future virtuoso on the violin and you're trying to, you know, really practice and push yourself, you can only really do that for, you know, chunks of twenty to thirty minutes, maybe a couple of times of the break.

对吧？

Right?

所以，这就是为什么番茄工作法虽然缺乏高质量的研究支持，但它那种二十分钟工作、五分钟休息的节奏，确实符合这种用脑规律。

So, like, that's why Pomodoro even though there's no, like, good studies on the Pomodoro technique, like, those time periods, twenty you five minutes with a five minute break a few times, they do kind of fit into that kind of rhythm.

这种节奏可以应用到我们需要动用大脑的多个领域。

That translates over to multiple areas where we might want to use our brains.

记住啊，这种高强度的认知工作和学习过程，只有分段进行，才能持久坚持下去。

And just remember that hard cognitive work and that process of learning can only really happen in those kinds of size of of chunks if you wanna do them sustainably.

是的。

Yeah.

在我开始写书之前，有个出过好几本畅销书的人跟我说，你每天最多只能专心写四个小时，还得分成几段。

Before I started writing my book, somebody who's published several very well received books said, You can only write for about four solid hours per day, broken up into a couple of sessions.

我当时就想，别逗了。

I was like, come on.

我不是吹牛，以前在实验室，我一坐就是六个小时，埋头写基金申请。

I mean, like, I'm not trying to boast, but I used to go into the lab and sit down and work on a grant for six hours or something like that.

后来我才开始想，那真算得上是六小时专注工作吗？

And I started thinking like, was it really six hours?

进实验室，跟学生和博士后聊几句，坐下，然后——

Go in there, see my students and postdocs, sit down.

中午吃饭，吃完饭，晚上熬到很晚，可第二天早上整个人都提不起劲，因为前一晚在办公室待得太晚了。

Okay, then there was lunch, and I eat And my there were some late nights, but then the next morning, I'm kind of dragging because I was in my office really late.

你得很快地对自己诚实，然后意识到，哦，原来是这样。

You get real honest with yourself real quick and you go, oh, okay.

在那些我确实拼命工作六、八、十甚至十二个小时，直到截止日期临近的时期，一旦你点击发送，产出量就会随之下降。

In the periods of time where I definitely pushed to the six, eight, ten, twelve hours of just nonstop work as a deadline approached, there was a compensatory drop in output after you click send.

所以我觉得你说得对。

And so I think you're right.

他们说得没错。

They're right.

大概是在60到90分钟和4个小时之间吧。虽然他们说是4小时，但真正能保持高度专注、进入心流状态的工作时间，其实也就这么多，不会多太多。

It's somewhere between maybe, I mean, you're saying 60 to 90 minutes, and they're saying four hours, but not a whole lot more than that for real focused in clutch state work.

对。

Yeah.

所以就是全神贯注，没有任何干扰，不看手机，也不回消息，就专心做自己的事，你懂的。

So really digging in and no distractions, no phone, no checking your text messages, just, you know?

没错。

Yeah.

你会不会给自己设定一些硬性限制，好让自己真正把工作做完？

Do you ever give yourself forced constraints to get real work done?

不是为了逼自己。

Not to force it.

我觉得，真正能让你深度专注地完成工作的一个好办法，就是去掉所有干扰。

I will say that one of the best ways to, like, truly get deep focused work done is to eliminate distractions.

这是你能做的最重要的事情之一。

That's one of the most important things that you can do.

所以，关掉邮箱。

So close the email.

我会把手机放到另一个房间之类的。

I would, like, put my phone in a different room or something.

因为现在呢，你懂的，我得用 Slack、Teams、实验室的系统，还经常在 WhatsApp 上来回聊天。

Because, like, nowadays, your own you know, close Slack I I have Slack, Teams, my lab, and I, we, interact on you know, we mess it back and forth on WhatsApp.

还有邮件。

Like, there's email.

我这里有五六个渠道，别人随时都能来找我。

I've got, like, five or six different ways that people can, like, constantly try and get my attention.

对吧？

Right?

所以，减少干扰真的特别重要。

So, like, eliminating distractions is really important.

我还要提到格洛丽亚·马克的研究。

And, again, I'd, return to Gloria Mark's work.

她写过一本叫《注意力跨度》的书，如果你真对这个话题感兴趣，强烈推荐。

She wrote an an excellent book called Attention Span, if anybody's, like, really interested in this.

人会习惯这种不断被打断的节奏，哪怕没人打扰，自己也会主动找事分心。

But you get used to a pattern of distraction such that when you're not actually being distracted, you will distract yourself.

对吧？

Right?

不过，这种习惯也是可以改掉的。

And you but you can be trained out of that as well.

但你有没有那种情况，明明在干活，却莫名其妙地伸手去拿手机？

But so you know that thing where you're trying to do work and you, like, reach for your phone for no reason?

这是因为你的大脑已经习惯了这种模式——差不多这时候，该有人发消息或者发邮件了，所以你就去拿手机。

It's because your brain is kind of used to this pattern of the around about now, somebody would text me or send me an email, and I'll and I'll reach my my phone.

于是你就会不自觉地去搜寻它。

So you'll you go looking for it

对。

Mhmm.

哪怕根本没人找你。

Even if it hasn't happened.

但只要你给自己安排一些不受打扰的时段，这种习惯也是可以改掉的。

But, again, you can train yourself out of that if you if you have periods where you're not getting constantly distracted.

所以我会关闭所有通知。

So I will eliminate notifications.

但对我个人来说，我发现如果做一件事的障碍太多，我通常就会放弃，因为有些东西还没想通，得先理顺了才能真正投入进去。

But at least for me, what I found is that if I if I have a ton of friction in terms of trying to get something done, I will usually step away from it because there's something in there that just, like, needs to click or come back before I can, like, really engage in it.

或者，如果

Or If

你遇到了瓶颈。

you're at a sticking point.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以，如果我卡住了，或者感觉某个东西当下怎么也想不出来，我通常会先换做别的事。这也挺正常的，属于一种常见的工作模式，也就是同时推进两三个项目。

So if if I'm at a sticking point or it's like if something feels like it's just not coming in the moment, I will usually switch over to to to something else, which is also kind of a normal it's it's it's one of a a a possible set of patterns of work, which is that you have two or three projects you're working on at at on any given time.

如果其中一个项目暂时推不动，你就可以转去做另一个，然后再回过头来。另一种情况是，截止日期快到了。这种情况经常出现在申请基金或者写书的时候，比如书稿有截稿日期，我得在几天甚至几小时内把稿子交给编辑。

If one just, like, isn't quite working, then you can switch over to the other one and and come back to And then, like, the alternative is that when the deadline is so close, and, you know, this often happens with a with a grant deadline or, you know, when I was writing my book and there's a, you know, a book deadline, and, you know, I've gotta get this to my editor in how how many days or hours.

这种情况下，我反而不需要刻意屏蔽那些干扰，因为我会立刻进入专注状态。

I I tend to just not need to to eliminate those things because I'll I'll I'll just focus in.

就像，我完全不会被其他事情分心。

Like, I I I don't feel that kind of draw to be distracted by other things.

但这种情况通常只持续很短的时间。

But that usually only happens for relatively short periods of time.

对吧？

Right?

顶多就是一天、两天，或者一天里的几个小时，而不是长时间这样。

It's gonna be a day or two or hours during a day rather than, you know, extended periods

持续很长时间。

of time.

你听说过最近那个关于手机放在桌上还是包里的研究吗？

Are you familiar with this recent study about phone on the table, phone in the bag?

是的。

Uh-huh.

研究说，就算手机得放在房间外，比如放在椅子底下的包里，而且关了机，你照样能集中注意力，但还是有代价的。

Where you would just remind people that if your phone has to be out of the room, even if it's in your bag beneath your chair turned off, you can still focus, but there's a cost.

你的思维灵活性等等会明显下降。

Your cognitive flexibility, etcetera, really suffers.

也就是说，大脑会在无意识中期待电话响起，而不是安心等待。

So that means that the brain is unconsciously expecting a call, instead of waiting for it.

你提到的这种因为习惯被打断而产生的注意力中断和期待心理，真的很有意思。

And the way you describe this attentional break expectation thing that we get in trained to interruptions is really interesting.

也许这就是为什么冥想对提升专注力如此有用，因为它强制让你没有任何中断。

Maybe this is why meditation is such a useful tool for improving focus is that it's just a forced no breaks Yeah.

对。

Thing.

虽然如果你不习惯冥想二十分钟，在冥想时很容易走神，但只要你坐下来，设定好计时器，大脑可能会完全跑偏。

Although it's pretty easy to drift in meditation if you are not used to doing twenty minutes of meditation, you sit down to do that, you set the timer, like, your brain can end up way off the trail.

这其实也可能带来一些好处。

There could be some benefit to that as well.

对吧？

Right?

因为如果不刻意留出这段时间，而我平时也不怎么冥想，但除非你每天能有一段真正不输入信息、不分心、也不纠结于特定事情的时间，否则你很难获得那种整合信息的机会。

Because there's you know, without kind of building that in, and I and I don't routinely meditate, but unless you have some parts of your day where actually you're not either putting in information, distracting yourself, thinking about a specific thing, right, you don't necessarily get that time to integrate.

你知道吗，最经典的例子就是，你总是在洗澡时冒出最好的点子。

You know, that's kind of, you know, the the classic is you come up with your best ideas in the shower.

对吧？

Right?

因为那时候你手机不在身边，也不看电视，没在干别的事，一心一意。

Because it's actually the time when you don't have your phone on you and you're not watching TV and you're not doing all these other things at, you know, at the at the same time.

所以也许冥想的本意不是这样，但它确实可能有帮助。

So maybe, yes, that's not what meditation is formally for, but it could potentially be beneficial.

如果大脑要走神，正好趁机建立新联系、产生新想法，给它留点空间和时间，也可能很有好处。

If your mind's gonna wander, you know, making new connections, know, coming up with new ideas, having that space and time to do it could potentially be beneficial too.

在这些研究和大规模试验里，饮食干预具体是怎么做的？

In these studies, these large scale trials, what was the diet intervention?

能不能总结出一些人人都该做或该考虑的要点？

Can we distill it down to some things that everyone should do or ought to consider?

在认知和心理领域的大多数干预措施，都围绕着某种形式的地中海饮食展开。

Most interventions in the sort of cognitive and psychological space are focused on some version of the Mediterranean diet.

还有个MIND饮食法，是来自拉什记忆与衰老研究项目的地中海饮食干预，专门针对延缓神经退行性疾病，本质上就是一种侧重于预防痴呆的地中海饮食。

There's the MIND diet, Mediterranean intervention to prevent neurodegenerative delay that came out of the Rush Memory and Aging Project, and it's basically just a version of the Mediterranean diet kind of focused on dementia prevention.

他们最初是通过分析人们吃得多或吃得少的食物，设计出一个评分系统，发现得分高的人群，患相关痴呆的风险更低。

And and the way they initially created it was they looked at foods that people ate more or less of and created a score, and those who had a higher score tends to, you know, had a lower risk of related dementia.

这个饮食法刚提出时并不是作为干预手段，而只是一个观察性的发现。

It wasn't an intervention when it was when it was first developed, but that was kind of diversion.

它其实是地中海饮食和DASH饮食的结合，DASH饮食是一种专门用于控制高血压的饮食方式。

It was a kind of combination of Mediterranean diet and the DASH diet, which is, like a antihypertension blood pressure treatment type diet.

也就是说，多吃海鲜、蔬菜、浆果、全谷物这类食物。

So it's, you know, seafood, vegetables, berries, whole grains, that kind of stuff.

少吃饱和脂肪和动物蛋白。

Not too much, saturated fat or animal protein.

这和SMILES试验中使用的饮食非常相似，那是首个证明饮食干预能显著改善抑郁症状的随机对照试验。

So this is very similar to the diet they used in the SMILES trial, which was the first randomized controlled trial in depression that showed significant improvements in mood symptoms.

我觉得这些原则很有参考价值，但目前并没有足够强的证据表明，必须这样吃才能维持大脑健康。

I think the principles are useful, but there's not necessarily a huge amount of evidence to say that this is the way that you should or you have to eat to maintain cognitive health.

几年前，《新英格兰医学杂志》发表了一项关于MIND饮食的大规模研究，把MIND饮食和普通的热量限制做了对比。

There was actually a big trial of the MIND diet that was published in the New England Journal of Medicine a couple of years ago, and they compared the MIND diet to standard caloric restriction.

结果发现，两组人都获得了相似的益处。

And, actually, they saw similar benefits in both in both groups.

对的。

Mhmm.

有不少大规模观察性研究分析了人们饮食与地中海饮食的相似程度，发现饮食越接近地中海模式的人，患痴呆的风险确实更低。

There have been big observational studies that have looked at how much their diet looks like a Mediterranean diet, and those whose diets look more like Mediterranean diets, yes, they have a lower risk of dementia.

当然，这些都是观察性数据。

Of course, right, this is observational data.

对吧？

Right?

所以不能直接说这是因果关系。

So it's not you can't say it's causal.

但有些研究里有个有意思的现象，比如英国生物银行的一项大型研究，他们把地中海饮食中的单个食物或营养成分拆开来看，想确认是不是某个特定成分在影响痴呆风险。

But what's interesting in some of these studies, there's a big one that came out of the UK Biobank, was that they, took out individual, foods or food components of the Mediterranean diet to see if that changed the relationship between the Mediterranean diet and dementia risk.

结果发现，无论是橄榄油、某种食物，还是多吃或少吃肉类，都没有改变地中海饮食与痴呆风险之间的关联。

And there was no food or, you know, olive oil or food group or, you know, eating more or less meat that change the relationship between the Mediterranean diet and dementia risk.

这让我觉得，关键在于整体饮食结构，食物营养丰富，而不是非得大量吃橄榄油不可。

So what that tells me is it's much more about whole foods, they're nutrient dense, rather than avoiding any you know, you have to eat you have to consume lots of olive oil, right?

也不必非要严格限制吃肉。

Or you have to restrict meat.

因为如果这些食物是在整体健康饮食的背景下摄入的，真正起作用的是饮食的整体质量和营养密度。

Because if those things are eaten in the context of all this other stuff, it's really that bigger context of diet quality and nutrient density that really matters.

所以我平时考虑饮食时，主要看三个方面。

So the the parts of diet that I think about are the, you know, there's three.

分别是能量、营养素，以及整体的饮食模式。

So there's energy, there's nutrients, and then there's overall dietary pattern.

之前跟你说过的那个MIND饮食和热量限制的试验，有个让人困惑的地方是，你可能会想，MIND饮食应该更占优势才对。

So one of the confounding things about that trial I told you about, the MIND diet versus caloric restriction, is you're like, well, the MIND diet should win out.

对吧？

Right?

那热量限制怎么也能有同样的效果呢？

How does caloric restriction do just as well?

在普通人群中，我们通常存在一些代谢健康问题，长期处于能量过剩的状态。

And in the kind of average population, we tend to have some issues with metabolic health and have been in a state of chronic energy excess for some period of time.

有一些非常出色的研究，考察了不同人群的大脑老化、脑容量和脑储备情况。

There's been some very nice studies that have looked at brain aging and brain volume or brain reserve across different populations.

有一项研究比较了玻利维亚的几个部落：提斯曼人，他们是狩猎采集族群；莫斯塞廷人，属于介于提斯曼人和典型工业化人群之间的中间群体；还有美国和欧洲的工业化人群。

There was was one group that looked at different tribes in Bolivia, the Bolivian Tsimane, who are a Hunsugather group, the Mossetin, who are kind of an intermediate group between sort of the Tsimane and, like, a standard kind of industrialized group, and then industrialized humans in The US and Europe.

他们发现，能量摄入与脑容量之间呈现一种倒U型曲线关系。

And what they found is this kind of this bell shaped curve between energy availability and brain volume.

一般来说，脑容量越大越好，对吧？

And in general, brain volume, right, the more the better, right, we think.

如果你长期热量摄入不足，大脑就会变小，因为你缺乏足够的资源来支持大脑结构的发育和维持。

And so if you're chronically calorically restricted, your brain is smaller, because you just don't have the resources to invest in, you know, the structure, and to maintain it.

而在另一端，情况也是一样的。

At the other end, you see the same thing.

所以，如果你长期处于热量过剩的状态，你的大脑平均体积也会偏小。这和代谢疾病有关，你知道吧，还有随之而来的高炎症水平、高血压等问题，这些我们都清楚会对大脑产生负面影响。

So if you're chronically, in a chronic state of caloric excess, you also tend to have a smaller brain on average, and this is related to metabolic disease, you know, and, you know, potentially, what comes with it, higher levels of inflammation, high blood pressure, things like that that we know can negatively impact the brain.

所以最关键的一点，我认为这也是热量限制组在那项试验中比MIND饮食组获益更多的原因，就是人们的认知能力得到了改善，仅仅是因为他们将能量摄入减少到了一个更合适的水平。这个水平基本上是大脑真正需要的，或者说能支持整体身体健康的，而身体健康又会反过来影响认知健康、大脑体积以及大脑功能。

So the most important thing, and I think this is where some of the benefits of caloric restriction happened in that trial compared to the MIND diet, was that people's cognition improved just because they decreased their energy intake to a point that was more you know, was essentially kind of what their brain kind of needed or, you know, kind of supported their overall physical health, which then affects, you know, cognitive health and and brain volume and and brain function.

所以第一步就是要确保你吃得够，但别过量。

So the first thing to do is to make sure that you're eating enough but not too much.

对吧？

Right?

这个说法虽然有点简单，但能量确实非常关键。

And that's very simplistic, but, like, energy is really critical.

能量摄入既不能太低，也不能太高。

Energy availability, not too low, not too high.

接下来你需要的是营养素。

Then the next thing that you need is there are is is nutrients.

我们已经知道，有几种关键营养素与认知功能和痴呆症风险有关。

We know there are several critical nutrients for related to cognitive function and risk of dementia.

目前证据最充分的有维生素D、铁、欧米伽三脂肪酸、参与代谢的B族维生素，特别是B12和叶酸，B6和核黄素也可能有作用，不过这因人而异。

The ones that we have the best evidence for are vitamin d, iron, omega three fatty acids, the B vitamins involved, and the B vitamins involved in methylation, so particularly B12 and folate, also potentially B6 and riboflavin, although that might depend a little bit more on the individual.

还有一些其他营养素，证据也相当不错。

Then there are some other nutrients that, you know, have some pretty good evidence for them.

比如很多抗氧化的多酚类物质，来自浆果、咖啡、茶和巧克力；还有让食物呈现橙黄红色的类胡萝卜素，比如叶黄素、玉米黄质，以及来自海鲜的虾青素——这正是虾和三文鱼呈粉红色的原因。

So many of the antioxidant polyphenols, things that you get from berries, coffee, tea, chocolate, the carotenoids that make things orange, yellow, and red, lutein, zeaxanthin, astaxanthin if it comes from seafood, that's that's what makes shrimp and salmon pink.

另外，膳食纤维似乎也有一定的益处。

And then, you know, some other aspects like dietary fiber seems to have, you know, some benefits as well.

镁不算在内吗？

Not magnesium.

镁当然也在其中。

So magnesium is absolutely in there in there too.

总的来说，镁、锌，还有一些结构脂质成分，比如胆碱和乙醇胺，可以从坚果、种子或鸡蛋中获取。

And in general, I think and so magnesium, zinc, then there's some of the structural lipid components, things like choline and ethanolamine that you might get from nuts and seeds or eggs.

这些营养素在大脑长期变化和痴呆风险方面的直接证据稍弱一些，但它们确实与认知功能密切相关。

They have some slightly less, like, less evidence, you know, really when you're looking at, brain changes over time and dementia risk, but they certainly do seem to be related to to cognitive function.

有一些研究显示，镁摄入量较低的人，在认知功能测试中的平均表现通常较差。

So there are some studies that show that those who have lower magnesium intakes tend on average to perform less well on some cognitive function tests.

所以这些营养素看起来都很重要。

So all of those do seem to be important.

我有两个关于营养素与大脑健康在短期和长期影响的问题，主要涉及营养素之间的相互作用——至少据我所知，这方面研究很少。

I have two questions about nutrients and brain health in the short and long term, and they have to do with interactions between nutrients, which at least to my understanding are rarely explored.

你经常会看到一些研究，比如补充欧米伽-3，或者让人多吃或少吃富含脂肪的鱼，但很少会考虑其他可能影响相同通路的维生素是否存在。

You know, you'll see studies of supplementing Omega-three or having people eat some fatty fish or less and so on, but rarely in the presence or absence of some other vitamin that, you know, that can potentially impact the same pathways.

所以这里面既有协同作用，也有必要性。

So there's synergy, there's also, you know, necessity.

这些因素都可能影响研究结果。

So that could impact results.

另一个问题是，这些营养素需要在多长时间内摄入？它们在体内代谢的周期又是多久？

The other piece is on what timescale are these nutrients needed and on what timescale are they metabolized?

也许我们先重点聊聊第二个问题。

So maybe to just kind of drill into the second question first.

我是说，我并不是那种一味推崇补充剂的人，但我一直有在吃各种形式的补充剂，同时也吃天然食物，整体饮食也算健康。年轻的时候可能没那么讲究，但随着年龄增长，吃得越来越健康了。

So, you know, I'm not out here as like the defender of supplements, but I've been taking supplements in various forms and eating whole foods and eating as generally healthily, you know, less so when I was younger, but still pretty healthy and more so as I get older.

不过我脑子里会冒出这样一个想法：天然食物确实很好，但假设像深色叶菜这类食物里含有许多对大脑和身体至关重要的营养成分。

But here's where my brain goes, wait, whole food is great, but let's say dark leafy greens have a bunch of things in them that are fundamentally important for brain and bodily health.

这很好。

Great.

而且它们还含有膳食纤维等等。

And they have fiber, etcetera.

我每周吃几次深色叶菜？

How many times a week am I eating dark leafy greens?

假设我周一、周二、周三都吃了，那表现很好，但周四、周五我在出差。

Let's say I do Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I'm great, but then I'm traveling Thursday, Friday.

那我周四、周五是不是光靠补充剂就够了？

Should I be just supplementing Thursday, Friday?

这样我就能撑到下周吗？

Am I good until the next week?

我觉得吃得健康之所以重要，大家其实都明白，就是热量要够但别太多，主要吃天然食物，蔬菜水果要足，优质蛋白和好脂肪也不能少。

I think one of the reasons why eating really well, I think everyone knows what that means, enough calories, not too many, mostly whole foods, etcetera, enough vegetables, fruits, and high quality protein, and quality fats.

我觉得补充剂还是让我心动，甚至觉得有必要，是因为每天吃起来太方便了。

I think the reason why supplements still become enticing to me, maybe even necessary is because you can take them every day very easily.

这样就能确保你的摄入量在正常范围，甚至还能稍微超过一点。

So you can make sure that you're in range and maybe above range.

我们就拿其中一样来说吧。

So let's take one of these things.

好的。

Okay.

欧米伽三脂肪酸。

Omega-three fatty acids.

我觉得相关研究证据挺有说服力的。

I believe that the data are pretty compelling.

它们对健康有帮助，说不定对大脑健康也很重要。

They can be helpful for health, maybe even brain health.