AMA #12：关于长寿补充剂（白藜芦醇、NR、NMN等）的思考及如何提升记忆力

欢迎收听休伯曼实验室播客，我们将探讨科学及基于科学的日常实用工具。

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life.

我是安德鲁·休伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

今天是一期问答环节，也就是AMA。

Today is an Ask Me Anything episode or AMA.

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Our premium subscriber channel was started in order to provide support for the standard Huberman Lab Podcast, which comes out every Monday and is available at zero cost to everybody on all standard feeds, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and elsewhere.

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We also started the premium channel as a way to generate support for exciting research being done at Stanford and elsewhere.

这些研究针对人类，旨在促成重要发现，从而改善心理健康、身体健康和表现。

Research on human beings that leads to important discoveries that assist mental health, physical health, and performance.

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I'm also pleased to inform you that for every dollar the Huberman Lab premium channel generates for research studies, the Tiny Foundation has agreed to match that amount.

因此，我们现在能够将用于心理健康、身体健康和人类表现研究的资金总额翻倍。

So So now we are able to double the total amount of funding given to studies of mental health, physical health, and human performance.

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And again, you can find that option at hubermanlab.com/premium.

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那么，不多说了，我们开始回答大家的问题。

So without further ado, let's get to answering your questions.

第一个问题是关于白藜芦醇的。

The first question is about Resveratrol.

具体问题是，我引述一下：关于白藜芦醇是否能延长寿命，目前存在大量推测。

The question specifically is, and I quote, There seems to be a lot of conjecture about resveratrol and whether or not it can extend lifespan.

您能否告诉我们您对这个话题的看法？

Could you please tell us your thoughts on this subject?

好的，我确实会分享我对这个话题的看法，并借此机会谈谈我对为延长寿命而服用补充剂的整体看法。

Okay, well, I will indeed tell you my thoughts on this subject and I'll use it as an opportunity to also give you my thoughts about supplementation for sake of longevity, that is for extending lifespan more generally.

几年前，白藜芦醇曾引起广泛关注，因为当时人们认为补充白藜芦醇可以影响某些细胞通路，不仅延长单个细胞的寿命，还可能延长整个生物体——也就是我们人类——的寿命。

So Resveratrol got a lot of attention some years back because of at the time it was believed that supplementing with Resveratrol could impact certain cellular pathways that would extend not just the lifespan of those individual cells, but perhaps the lifespan of the entire organism, meaning us humans.

因此，白藜芦醇补充剂，以及富含白藜芦醇或可转化为白藜芦醇的葡萄籽提取物，也因可能延长寿命而受到广泛关注。

And as a consequence, supplements such as resveratrol supplements, but also grape seed extracts, which we know contain a fair amount of resveratrol or can be converted into resveratrol, also received a lot of attention for the potential to increase lifespan.

我认为，到2023年，可以公平地说，大多数这种观点已经被证伪了。

I think by now, 2023, it's fair to say that most of that thinking has been, let's just say debunked.

我认为大多数人现在都明白，尽管白藜芦醇可能对细胞功能有一些积极影响，但几乎没有直接证据表明它能延长寿命。

I think that most people understand that while indeed resveratrol might have some positive effects on the functioning of our cells, that there is very little if any direct evidence that resveratrol can increase lifespan.

如果你知道任何与此相反的现代数据，这些数据是高度受控的，最好是在人类研究、非人灵长类动物研究甚至小鼠研究中进行的，请在YouTube评论区附上相关链接，因为我非常想看看这些研究，尤其是最近的研究。

If you are aware of any data to the contrary that is modern, is highly controlled, and even better was carried out in human studies or non human primate studies, or even mouse studies, please put links to those in the comments on YouTube because I'd love to see those studies, especially recent studies.

但根据我目前的看法，白藜芦醇虽然可能具有一些健康益处，但似乎并不能延长寿命。

But my current line of thinking is that resveratrol while it may have certain health benefits does not seem to increase lifespan.

话虽如此，这并不意味着白藜芦醇或葡萄籽提取物完全没有用处。

Now with that said, that doesn't mean that things like resveratrol or grape seed extract are of zero utility.

事实上，我通常每天随餐服用400到800毫克的葡萄籽提取物，这是我每天常规补充剂组合的一部分。

In fact, I take four hundred to eight hundred milligrams of grape seed extract usually with a meal, it's just part of my standard supplementation stack every single day.

但我主要因为葡萄籽提取物对血管功能和血流的益处，以及其他一些相关作用而服用它。

But I do that mainly for its effects on vascular function and blood flow and a few other effects that grape seed extract has been related to.

关于这方面的研究数据我认为相当有力，足以让我在权衡服用葡萄籽提取物的潜在缺点（包括其成本）后，仍然坚持每天服用400到800毫克。

The data there I would say are reasonably strong, strong enough certainly that when weighed against the potential downsides of taking grapeseed extract, including the cost of grapeseed extract, lead me to take four hundred to eight hundred milligrams of grapeseed extract per day.

我只是把它当作一种针对多种潜在问题的通用保障措施。

I just do that as a kind of general insurance policy against a number of things.

它是我所服用的、属于这一类别的少量补充剂之一。

And it's part of a small kit of supplements that I take that fall into that category.

意思是这些补充剂看起来非常安全，尤其是在我刚刚提到的剂量下，它们可能对我们的细胞有积极影响，而且价格相当低廉，甚至非常便宜。

Meaning supplements that appear to be very safe, certainly at the dosages that I just referred to, supplements that potentially are having positive effects on our cells and that are fairly, if not very low cost.

所以这就是我服用葡萄籽提取物的原因。

Okay, so that's why I take grape seed extract.

我服用它并不是为了它对白藜芦醇及其相关通路的潜在影响，更不是为了延长我的寿命。

I do not take it for its potential impact on resveratrol and resveratrol related pathways per se, and certainly not to extend my lifespan.

这基本上回答了我被问到的问题：你对白藜芦醇延长寿命有什么看法？

So that basically answers the question that I was asked, which is, what are your thoughts on resveratrol for extending lifespan?

我的回答是：我不认为它能延长寿命，但我确实会服用与白藜芦醇相关的东西来达到其他健康目的。

My answer was, I don't think it extends lifespan, but I take something related to resveratrol for other health purposes.

顺便说一下，如果有人问我：我想服用一到十种补充剂，预算有限，正在考虑是否要服用葡萄籽提取物，它会是你推荐的前五名甚至前十名补充剂之一吗？我绝对不会把它列入前十。

And by the way, I certainly wouldn't place grape seed extract in my list of top five or even top 10 supplements if somebody for instance said, I want to take anywhere from one to 10 supplements and I have X amount of budget to devote to supplementation and I'm thinking about taking grape seed extract, would that be one of the top 10 supplements you would recommend?

我肯定不会把它排进前十。

I certainly wouldn't put it in the top 10.

另外，不久的将来，我会在网上发布一段内容——我可能会制作一期播客，列出我所有服用的补充剂、我服用它们的理由、服用时长、我主观感受到的效果以及我的血液检测结果，还有我推荐或不推荐他人服用的补充剂，哪些是只适合我的，等等。

And by the way, at some point in the not too distant future, I will put online, so I'll probably do a podcast episode listing out all the supplements that I take and the rationale behind those and how long I've taken them and the effects that I've observed both subjectively and in my blood work and what I recommend to other people, what I don't recommend to other people, what's specific to me and so on and so forth.

但与此同时，这就是我对这个问题的回答。

But meanwhile, that's my answer to the question.

我不认为白藜芦醇能延长寿命。

I don't think resveratrol increases longevity.

至少我目前没有发现任何关于其在人类中直接延长寿命的证据。

At least I'm not aware of any direct evidence for that in humans.

话虽如此，让我们借此机会讨论一些其他常被在线和其他地方讨论的所谓抗衰老补充剂和药物，以及它们在延长寿命方面的有效性。

Now, with that said, let's use this as an opportunity to talk about some of the other so called longevity supplements and drugs that are often discussed online and elsewhere in terms of their efficacy to increase lifespan.

大约四五年前，NAD相关通路在延长寿命方面突然受到了更多关注。

About four or five years ago, there was a sudden and increased attention on NAD related pathways for increasing longevity.

NAD通路，正如你们中的一些人可能已经知道的，是我们所有细胞内的一种通路。

So the NAD pathway, as some of you may already know, is a pathway within all of our cells.

这个通路在年轻动物和人类中非常活跃，但所有动物和人类在其整个生命周期中都会在细胞内产生NAD。

This is a pathway that is highly active in young animals and humans, but all animals and humans across the entire lifespan make NAD in their cells.

它与细胞能量代谢有关，也就是细胞内能量的产生。

It's related to cellular energetics, that is the production of energy in cells.

它与线粒体功能直接相关，而线粒体功能又与此相关。

It has direct relevance to mitochondrial function and mitochondrial function to it.

这本身就是一个值得探讨的话题，但简而言之，通往NAD的通路包括NR和NMN等物质。

And that's a discussion into itself, but suffice to say that the pathway leading to NAD includes things such as NR and NMN.

许多人认为NR和NMN是NAD的前体。

NR and NMN are considered by many to be precursors to NAD.

那么，我为什么要跟你们说这么多缩写词呢？

Okay, so why am I telling you all these acronyms?

事情是这样的。

Here's the deal.

事实上，一些此前做客《休伯曼实验室播客》及其他平台的嘉宾提出，通过提高细胞内NAD的水平，有可能延长寿命。

The argument was made in fact by some prior guests on the Huberman Lab Podcast and elsewhere that by increasing NAD levels in our cells that one could potentially extend lifespan.

通常来说，人们尝试提升NAD水平有三种主要方式。

And there are generally three ways in which people have attempted to do that.

我们稍后会讨论提高细胞内NAD水平是否真的能延长寿命，但目前先来看看人们尝试如何在大脑和身体内提升NAD水平。

Okay, we'll talk about whether or not increasing NAD in our cells actually increases lifespan in a moment, but for the time being, let's just talk about some of the ways that people have tried to increase NAD within their brain and body.

人们最常用的方法是通过补充剂，直到最近都是如此。

The most typical ways that people have done that is through, until very recently, supplementation.

因此，市面上有像NR这样的补充剂，我们知道它能提高NAD水平。

And so there are supplements out there such as NR, which we know can increase NAD levels.

NR通常以胶囊或粉末形式服用，而NMN则存在一些争议，比如NMN是否真的能提高细胞内的NAD水平，是否能进入细胞，是否能被转化为NAD等等。

So this is taken as a pill or a powder, sort of typically as a capsule or a powder, or by taking NMN, which, and here there's been some, let's just say debate as to whether or not taking NMN actually leads to increases in NAD within our cells, whether or not it can get into our cells, whether or not it's converted into NAD and so on and so on.

但同样地，人们认为通过服用胶囊形式的NAD，或者有时以舌下粉末形式服用，可以提高NAD水平，从而可能延长寿命。

But there again, the idea was by taking NAD either in capsule form or it's sometimes taken as a sublingual powder that one could increase NAD levels and thereby potentially increase lifespan.

还有一种常用的方法是通过静脉输注，有时也通过口服液体或药片形式直接补充NAD本身。

Then And there's a third way that's commonly used to try and increase NAD levels and that's by infusing by intravenous infusion or in some cases by oral administration, either liquid or pill form NAD itself.

我承认，我尝试过这三种方法，好吧？

Now, I confess that I have tried all three of these approaches, okay?

所以我确实每天都会服用NR补充剂。

So I do indeed take an NR supplement every day.

我每天服用五百毫克的NR。

I take five hundred milligrams of NR.

我同时也单独服用过NMN补充剂。

I also and have separately taken an NMN supplement.

我服用的是舌下含服的NMN。

I take sublingual NMN.

我会服用一到两克的舌下含服NMN粉末，顾名思义，就是把它放在舌下让它溶解。

So I'll take anywhere from one to two grams of NMN as a sublingual powder, which as the name suggests, you put it under your tongue and it dissolves there.

它有一种微酸的味道。

It's got this kind of tangy flavor.

我每天服用NR和NMN的目标是，我应该提到，有时我会单独服用NMN或NR，以便主观地比较NR和NMN对我的影响，比如我的能量水平如何、感觉怎样、是否有任何副作用，之后我也尝试过同时服用两者，最终形成了每天同时服用NR和NMN的方案。

And the goal for me in taking NR and NMN each day, and I should mention that sometimes I have just taken NMN or just NR to do the comparison between NR and NMN for me in a subjective way, just comparing what are my energy levels, how do I feel, whether or not there are any side effects, and then I've also taken them together and I've arrived at a protocol where I take NR and NMN every single day.

这样做的目的确实是提高我体内的NAD水平。

And the goal of that is indeed to increase NAD levels within my system.

然而，我必须特别强调，我服用NR和NMN并不是为了延长寿命。

However, and I really want to emphasize this, I do not take NR and NMN in order to increase my lifespan.

事实上，以目前的科学认知来看，提高NAD水平是否能延长寿命尚不明确，甚至似乎不太可能，但我们始终应该保持开放的心态。

In fact, at this point in history, it's unclear and seems somewhat unlikely that increasing NAD is going to increase lifespan, but I think we should always keep our minds open.

未来可能会有数据表明，这种情况在人类身上确实会发生。

There may be data to arrive in the future that shows that that actually does happen in humans.

一些动物实验表明，通过服用NR或NMN来提高NAD水平可以延长寿命，但坦率地说，这并不是我服用NMN的原因。

Now, are some animal data suggesting that increasing NAD either by taking NR and or NMN can increase lifespan, but frankly, that is not why I take and NMN.

我服用NR和NMN是为了提高NAD水平，现在我意识到我即将说的话完全是主观的，我特别想强调这一点。

I take NR and NMN in an effort to increase NAD, and now I realize what I'm about to say is entirely subjective and I really want to highlight that.

我接下来要描述的是我的个人体验。

What I'm about to describe is my experience.

这并不是基于任何同行评审的研究。

It is not based on any peer reviewed studies.

当我按照之前提到的剂量服用NR和NMN时，一整天都能获得持久的身心能量。

When I take NR and NMN at the dosages I talked about a little bit earlier, it gives me a lot of sustained mental and physical energy throughout the day.

我一直以来都有很强的身心能量，但我现在48岁了，我希望能通过任何安全的方式，尽可能长时间地保持这种能量水平，对吧？

Now I've always had a lot of mental and physical energy, but I'm 48 years old now and I'm interested in doing anything that I safely can to keep those levels of energy as high as is reasonable, right?

我不希望能量过多到无法静坐，或者多到晚上睡不着觉，但我发现，如果我在早上服用NR和NMN——通常是在第一餐前，我并不会严格控制它和第一餐之间的时间间隔。

I don't want to have so much energy that I can't sit still or so much energy that I can't sleep at night, but I find that when I take NR and NMN in the morning, so typically I'll do this before my first meal, I don't really regulate how close it is to that first meal.

所以我醒来后，会上厕所、补水、晒太阳，做我在其他播客里提到的所有事情，但我会在醒来后大约一到两小时内服用NR和NMN，通常在第一餐前至少三十分钟到两小时，而我的第一餐通常在上午11点左右。

So I'll wake up, use the bathroom, hydrate, get my sunlight, do all the things I've talked about on other podcasts, but I'll take my NR and NMN sometime usually within about an hour or two of waking up and typically at least thirty minutes to two hours before my first meal, which for me usually arrives around 11AM.

所以有时我会在第一餐前很久就服用。

So sometimes I'll take it long before my first meal.

无论如何，它给我提供了大量能量，而且我感觉这种能量能持续一整天。

In any event, it gives me a lot of energy and I seem to have that energy throughout the day.

我曾经有过一段时间停止服用NR或NMN。

I have gone periods of time where I stopped taking NR and or NMN.

虽然我没有感到能量完全耗尽，但我确实注意到，与服用NR和NMN时相比，我的能量水平有所下降。

And while I didn't feel as if I was completely depleted of energy, I did notice a decrement in energy compared to when I took NR and NMN.

现在我要非常、非常明确地说清楚。

Now I want to be very, very clear.

我与任何生产NR的公司都没有任何经济利益关系。

I have no zero financial relationship to any company that manufactures NR.

虽然我曾经与一家生产NMN的公司有合作关系，但最近FDA出台了一项规定，使得NMN在更广泛的市场上不再作为膳食补充剂可用。

And while I used to have a relationship to a company that made NMN, as of recently, there's an FDA ruling that has made NMN not available as a supplement in the wider world.

因此，今年早些时候，也就是2023年，有人为NMN提交了作为临床试验中实验性药物的申请。

So earlier this year, that is in 2023, there was a filing for NMN as a experimental drug in a clinical trial.

因此，NMN被列为禁止作为商业补充剂销售的物质。

And as a consequence, NMN was listed as a band or not allowed to be commercially sold supplement.

这与临床试验的相关法律有关：一旦某种物质被列为实验性药物，就不能再被列为补充剂。

And that has to do with some of the legality around clinical trials and when something is listed as an experimental drug, it can't be listed as a supplement.

尽管如此，你仍然可以在公开市场上找到NMN。

Nonetheless, you can still find NMN on the open market.

你可以在亚马逊上找到它。

You can find it on Amazon.

我无法真正评价不同来源产品的纯度如何。

I can't really speak to the purity of one source versus another.

你需要自己去探索和了解。

You'll have to explore that on your own.

但我要重申一下，尽管我之前说过，我目前与任何生产或销售NMN或NR的公司都没有任何经济利益关系。

But I will say this, even though I said it before, I have zero financial relationship to any company that manufactures and sells NMN at this time or NR at this time.

所以，关于NR和NMN的整个讨论的简短总结是：我服用NR和NMN，但我是因为喜欢它带给我的感觉才服用的。

So the short summary to this whole discussion about NR and NMN is that I take NR and NMN, but I take it because I like how it makes me feel.

它能提升我早晨和全天的能量水平。

It increases my energy levels in the morning and throughout the day.

而且它的效果在晚上会平稳下降，我依然能顺利入睡，等等。

And it does so in a way that tapers off nicely in the evening and I can still fall asleep, etcetera.

我服用它并不是期望它能延长我的寿命，因为我并不认为目前有充分的数据支持其延长寿命的效果。

I do not take it with any expectation that it's going to increase my lifespan simply because I don't think the data substantiating the extension and lifespan are here yet.

这些数据或许将来会出现，但我认为目前还没有。

They may arrive at some point, but I don't think that they are here yet.

因此，仍有许多人服用NR或NMN，目的是为了提升NAD水平。

So there are a good number of people out there that still take NR and or NMN and are doing so in efforts to increase NAD.

所以，让我们花点时间谈谈直接提升NAD的问题，因为我最近有这方面的亲身经历，而且这种做法正变得越来越普遍，至少据我所知，目前仍是FDA批准的。

And so let's take a moment and talk about increasing NAD directly because that's something that I have some recent experience with and that's becoming more common and is yes, still FDA approved, at least as far as I know.

有一些公司可以上门服务，或者你可以去专门的机构，他们会为你提供NAD输注治疗。

There are companies that can come to your house or you can go to a facility and they will give you an NAD infusion.

他们会直接将NAD注入你的静脉。

So they will infuse you directly with NAD into the vein.

我已经做过两次了。

I've done this twice now.

我会说，就像大多数人接受NAD输注时的体验一样，这过程相当不舒服。

And I will say, as most people experience when they do an NAD infusion, it's pretty darn uncomfortable.

事实上，很多人必须服用抗恶心药物才能完成NAD输注。

In fact, so much so that a lot of people have to take anti nausea meds in order to get the NAD infusion.

我选择不服用抗恶心药，并不是因为我特别坚强，而是因为我能不额外吃药就不吃，但我通过输注接受过五百到一千毫克的NAD。

I opted to not take the anti nausea meds, not because I'm particularly tough, but because I don't like taking additional medication if I can, but I've taken anywhere from five hundred to one thousand milligrams of NAD by infusion.

我是在感觉特别疲惫的时候做的，比如生病后恢复期。

I did that at times when I was feeling particularly run down, okay, post illness.

我确实发现，在NAD输注结束后，我在很多方面都感觉好很多了——睡眠改善、精力提升，从疾病中恢复后感觉好多了。

And I did indeed find that after the NAD infusion was complete, I felt much, much better in a number of different ways, improved sleep, improved vigor, coming off those illnesses, I felt much better.

但同样，据我所知，目前还没有任何临床试验研究过将NAD输注用于提升精力等目的。

But again, there is no clinical trial exploring NAD infusion for sake of vigor, etcetera, that I am aware of.

我只是恰好对时不时探索这些工具和方法感兴趣，并认为这很安全。

I just happen to be somebody who's interested in exploring these tools and techniques from time to time, and I deemed this as safe.

是否对你安全，你需要与你的医生一起探讨。

Whether or not safe for you, you have to explore with your physician.

我也想再次强调我刚才说的话，那些NAD输注确实非常不舒服。

Also, do want to reemphasize what I said a moment ago, those NAD infusions are pretty darn uncomfortable.

你可以让执行输注的人调整输注速度，让滴速慢一些，这样会更易耐受，而不是试图在四十五分钟或更短时间内完成整个输注。

You can have the person administering the infusion adjust the rate of the infusion so that the drip is slower, which makes it more tolerable as opposed to trying to get the whole infusion bag in there in forty five minutes or less.

我只是想尽快结束它。

I just want to get the whole thing over with.

所以我只是说，尽可能快而安全地完成输注。

So I just said, put it in as quickly as you reasonably and safely can.

整个过程大约持续了一个小时，可能是四十五分钟到一小时。

It took about an hour, maybe forty five minutes to an hour.

一开始我感到恶心。

Initially, I felt nauseous.

我感觉有人踩在我的胸口上。

I felt like someone was stepping on my chest.

我感觉有人踩在我的腿上。

I felt like someone was stepping on my legs.

我只是觉得很难受。

I just felt lousy.

实在太糟糕了。

It was so awful.

但大约十分钟后，这种感觉消失了，我感觉好多了。

And then after about ten minutes, it passed and I felt fine.

infusion结束后，正如我之前提到的，我感觉非常好。

And then after the infusion was done, as I mentioned before, I felt terrific.

那天晚上我依然能顺利入睡。

I was still able to fall asleep that night just fine.

不过我特意选择在白天早些时候进行。

Although I did make it a point to do this earlier in the day.

我听说过一些人把NAD输注安排在一天较晚的时候，结果影响了睡眠。

I have heard of some people doing NAD infusions later in the day and having challenges with sleep.

但再说一遍，这仅仅是轶事，或者如果你愿意，也可以称之为‘小数据’，但终究是轶事。

But again, that's just anecdotal or we could call it anic data if you want, but it's anecdotal.

出于显而易见的原因，人们普遍认为NAD输注比NR、NMN或两者联合使用更能有效提升细胞内的NAD水平。

It's generally assumed for obvious reasons that NAD infusions are more effective at increasing cellular levels of NAD than NR or NMN or both together.

不过据我所知，还没有人做过直接的对比研究。

Although the direct comparison has not been made as far as I know.

目前仍存在一个普遍的问题：这些物质是否真的能直接进入细胞，并影响特定细胞中的NAD水平。

And there's still this general question as to whether or not any of this stuff is getting into cells directly and impacting NAD levels in specific cells.

尽管我认为大多数人认为NAD输注确实能做到这一点。

Although I think most people assume that the NAD infusion certainly are.

现在，有许多不同的专家对刚才我提到的所有细节都存在争议。

Now, are a number of different experts out there who debate all the fine points of everything that I just said.

比如一些医生。

People like Doctor.

查尔斯·布伦纳，像这样的医生。

Charles Brenner, people like Doctor.

大卫·辛克莱，像马特·卡布拉林这样的人。

David Sinclair, people like Matt Cabraline.

有一些人非常积极地，甚至可以说是激烈地争论我刚才提到的所有问题。

There are people who really actively and let's just say heatedly debate all the issues that I just talked about.

我认为最大的争议在于，提高细胞内的NAD水平是否真的能延长寿命，但同时也存在关于NR是否比NMN更有优势，以及这一切是否还为时过早的争论。

I think the greatest debate is around whether or not increasing NAD levels in cells actually increases lifespan, but there's also a debate around whether or not NR is more advantageous than NMN, whether or not all of this is premature to explore yet already.

再次重申，这是我第三次说，我进行这些NAD通路的干预，并不是为了延长寿命。

Again, I just want to restate for the third time, I don't do any of this stuff in these NAD pathways for sake of increasing lifespan.

我这么做是为了主观感受到的活力和能量提升。

I do it for sake of the vitality and energy effects that I subjectively experience.

我必须说，NAD输注既昂贵、又不便，而且可以说相当不舒服，因此我不太可能频繁进行，不过也许一年做几次可能比较合理。

I must say that the NAD infusions are expensive enough, inconvenient enough, and let's just say uncomfortable enough that I don't see myself doing them very often, although perhaps maybe doing them a couple of times a year or more makes sense.

如果我感到疲惫不堪，或者生病后出现疲劳等情况时？

Should I find myself feeling rundown or post illness fatigue or things of that sort?

我非常好奇想听听你们观众中，有没有人尝试过NR补充剂、NMN补充剂或NAD输注，以及你们体验到了什么。

I would be very curious to learn from any of you, the audience, what sorts of things you've experienced when, if perhaps you've explored NR supplementation, NMN supplementation, or NAD infusions.

正如我之前提到的，现在市面上出现了越来越多声称可以口服NAD的产品，无论是胶囊、酊剂还是其他形式，无需输注，但我尚未了解到任何直接证明口服NAD能提升细胞内NAD水平的研究，以及这两者之间的关联。

And as I mentioned earlier, there's now a growing number of different products that claim that you can take NAD orally, so either in pill, tincture, or other forms, so no requirement for an infusion, but I'm not aware of any studies that have directly linked oral NAD to NAD levels in cells and how those two things relate.

因此，这个领域还有很多重要的科学工作有待开展，也必然会有更多争论。

So lots more important science to be done in this area, lots more debate surely to be had.

每次我们谈到补充剂时，我都想反复强调，我确实把补充剂视为补充。

And anytime we talk about supplements, I just want to emphasize several times that I do see supplements as indeed supplements.

我认为，只有在你的光照、阳光、运动、营养、压力调节、社交关系等方面都已到位的前提下，才值得考虑使用补充剂，因为补充剂绝非心理健康、身体健康和表现提升的基础。

I think only by getting your light exposure, sunshine, movement, nutrition, stress modulation, social relationships, etcetera, correct, should you even begin to consider supplementation because supplementation is just not at the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

它确实可以在符合你的安全性和经济性前提下，在某些方面提升心理健康、身体健康和表现，但它绝不是构建心理健康、身体健康和表现的基石。

It is indeed something that provided it fits within your safety and economical frameworks could potentially enhance mental health, physical health performance in certain ways, but it's certainly not the foundation from which you build mental health, physical health and performance.

现在我们已经讨论了白藜芦醇，以及一点葡萄籽提取物。

So now we've talked about resveratrol, a little bit about grapeseed extract.

我们还谈到了NR、NMN和NAD及其NAD通路。

We talked about NR, NMN and NAD and the NAD pathway.

在长寿领域，还有一些其他常被讨论的话题，比如二甲双胍。

There are a few other things that are commonly discussed in the longevity sphere, let's call it, things such as Metformin.

我直接说吧，我不服用二甲双胍。

I'll just be very direct and say, I do not take Metformin.

我也不服用有些人称作二甲双胍的‘穷人版’——小檗碱，它让我剧烈头痛。

And I also don't take what some people call the poor man's version of Metformin, which is Berberine gives me brutal headaches.

小檗碱能降低血糖。

Berberine lowers blood glucose.

我认为这正是它让我剧烈头痛的原因。

That's why I think it's giving me brutal headaches.

很多人已经尝试或正在考虑服用二甲双胍或小檗碱，以降低血糖和抑制某个特定的通路，比如最常被提及的mTOR通路。

A lot of people have explored or thinking about exploring taking metformin or berberine for sake of lowering blood glucose and lowering a particular seller, let's just say pathway or set of molecules, mTOR being the most common of them.

mTOR，即哺乳动物雷帕霉素靶蛋白，在发育中的细胞中含量丰富。

MTOR, mammalian targeted rapamycin is abundant in developing cells.

它负责单个细胞的生长，而我们细胞中的mTOR含量会随着年龄增长而逐渐减少。

It's responsible for the growth of individual cells and the amount of mTOR in our cells tapers off across our lifespan.

mTOR及其通路是我实验室中在视觉系统再生背景下深入研究的内容。

MTOR and its pathways is something that I've actually worked on fairly extensively in my laboratory in the context of the regeneration of of the visual system.

因此我对它非常熟悉。

So I'm very familiar with it.

为了方便和简化这次对话，我们可以把mTOR理解为在发育过程中以及细胞生长时（包括肿瘤细胞生长和生命各个阶段的细胞生长）在细胞中大量存在的物质。

For sake of convenience and ease in this conversation, we could just think of mTOR as something that's abundant in cells during development and anytime cells are growing, including the growth of tumor cells and cellular growth at any stage of the lifespan.

因此，人们提出的逻辑是，像二甲双胍或小檗碱这样的药物或化合物，通过降低mTOR水平或以导致mTOR净减少的方式影响mTOR通路，可能 somehow 延长寿命。

So the logic that people have waged is that drugs like Metformin or compounds like Berberine that reduce mTOR levels or impact the mTOR pathway in ways that lead to net decreases in mTOR, the logic is that that could somehow increase lifespan.

还有另一种观点认为，禁食可以降低mTOR，从而延长寿命。

There's also the logic that fasting can reduce mTOR, which can increase lifespan.

然而，目前还没有直接证据支持这一点，至少在人类中还没有。

I don't think there's any direct evidence for that yet, however, at least not in humans.

所以我要告诉你，我不会服用小檗碱，原因我已经提过了。

So I'll tell you, I don't take berberine for the reasons I mentioned before.

它让我感到不舒服。

It makes me feel uncomfortable.

我不是心理上不舒服，而是身体上感到不适。

I don't, not psychologically uncomfortable, it makes me feel physically uncomfortable.

我不服用二甲双胍，因为我的一些专家同事，包括彼得·乌拉蒂亚博士，

I don't take metformin because expert colleagues of mine, including Doctor.

曾经来过这个播客。

Peter Uratia have come on this podcast.

事实上，我们曾合作举办过一期期刊俱乐部播客，我们会在节目说明中提供链接，在那期节目中，主要是彼得，我们回顾了关于二甲双胍与寿命的同行评审数据。

In fact, we did a collaboration journal club podcast that we'll provide a link to in the show note captions during which we, meaning mainly Peter, reviewed the data, the peer reviewed data on metformin and lifespan.

至少以我目前的理解来看，还没有足够的数据支持服用二甲双胍来延长寿命。

And at least to my understanding at present, there isn't sufficient data to support taking Metformin for increasing lifespan.

这就是我不服用它的原因。

So that's why I don't take it.

未来如果出现更多数据，情况可能会改变，但目前我看不出服用二甲双胍来延长寿命的任何理由。

I may in the future, more data come out and things change, but right now I see no reason to take metformin to increase my lifespan.

所以我不会服用二甲双胍。

So I don't take metformin.

同样地，关于雷帕霉素也有很多讨论。

Similarly, there's a lot of discussion out there about rapamycin.

还记得mTOR吗？哺乳动物雷帕霉素靶点之所以如此命名，是因为它是这种药物的靶点，这种药物主要用于抗癌，但也有其他用途。

Remember mTOR, mammalian target of rapamycin is so named because it's a target of this drug, which is used largely as an anticancer drug, but has other purposes as well.

雷帕霉素正在被积极研究，这听起来像是发生了犯罪，但据我所知，并没有。

Rapamycin is actively under investigation, which makes it sound like there was a crime committed, but as far as I know, there wasn't.

更准确的说法是，它正在由优秀的研究人员如博士进行积极的科学探索。

Under active scientific exploration would be the more accurate way to say it, by excellent researchers such as Doctor.

西雅图华盛顿大学的马特·卡布拉林。

Matt Cabraline up at the University of Washington in Seattle.

他一直在研究雷帕霉素延长寿命的能力，重点关注包括狗在内的许多不同物种。

He's been looking at rapamycin for its ability to extend lifespan, focusing on many different species, including dogs.

所以他有一个狗长寿项目。

So he has a dog longevity project.

这真的很有趣。

So that's really interesting.

博士。

Doctor.

彼得·阿蒂亚曾多次谈论过雷帕霉素，并最近与马特·卡布拉林以及一位全球顶尖的mTOR专家共同做了一期关于雷帕霉素的播客。

Peter Attia has talked a lot about rapamycin and did a recent podcast about rapamycin with not only Matt Cabraline, but one of experts in the world on mTOR.

因此，如果你想要了解雷帕霉素，我建议你去听听那期播客。

So I invite you to check out that podcast if you want to learn about rapamycin.

目前，人们对雷帕霉素和mTOR的生物通路已有相当程度的理解。

So there is a fair amount of understanding about the biological pathways of rapamycin and mTOR and so on.

像彼得这样的临床医生，以及其他一些人，对雷帕霉素在延长寿命方面的潜力感到非常兴奋。

And there are clinician physicians like Peter, as well as others who are quite excited about the potential for rapamycin to extend lifespan.

不过，要了解他具体在做什么——是否在服用雷帕霉素——你必须直接去问彼得本人。

Although you have to go directly to Peter to find out exactly what he's doing, whether or not he's taking rapamycin or not.

我当然不能替他发言，但目前我本人并不服用雷帕霉素。

I certainly can't speak for him, but at present, I don't take rapamycin.

那我为什么不服用雷帕霉素呢？

Why don't I take rapamycin?

我不服用雷帕霉素，因为至少在我看来，目前的数据还不足以支持为了延长寿命而使用它。

Well, I don't take rapamycin because at least to my eye, the data at present don't justify that for sake of increasing lifespan.

这并不是说雷帕霉素对治疗各种癌症或其他疾病无效，但就我目前而言，我看不到任何充分的理由让我为了延长寿命而服用雷帕霉素，毕竟它存在一些已被证实的潜在副作用。

That is not to say that rapamycin isn't an effective drug for the treatment of various cancers and for other purposes, but for me at this point in time, I just don't see a good reason for me to take rapamycin relative to some of the, let's just say substantiated potential side effects of rapamycin.

我认为在特定条件下，雷帕霉素是可以安全使用的，但它的副作用谱足够显著，因此目前我并不打算为了延长寿命而服用它。

It is a drug that I think can be taken safely under certain conditions, but has enough of a side effect profile that I'm not interested in taking it for sake of increasing lifespan at this time.

好吧，所以目前我既不服用二甲双胍，也不服用雷帕霉素，也许将来会考虑。

Okay, so no metformin, no rapamycin for me right now, perhaps in the future.

我已经列出了我完全愿意并乐意做的事情：葡萄籽提取物、NR和NMN，偶尔进行NAD静脉输注以直接提升NAD水平。

I've listed out the things that I'm perfectly willing and happy to do, grape seed extract, NR and NMN, the occasional NAD infusion to increase NAD directly.

现阶段，我决定避开二甲双胍和雷帕霉素。

And for the time being, I've decided to stay away from metformin and rapamycin.

但当然，所有这些都可能随着未来发表的数据和我自身的体验而改变。

But of course, any and all of that could change going forward depending on the data that are published and my own experiences.

最后一点，我想再次强调，高质量生活和长寿的基础，毫无疑问来自于最基本的生活方式。

As a final point on this, I want to again emphasize that the foundation of a quality life and a long life is most certainly going to come from the basics.

或许其中最基本、最重要的就是每晚获得充足且高质量的睡眠。

Perhaps the most fundamental and important of which is to get sufficient amounts of quality sleep each night.

我们知道，不这样做确实会缩短寿命。

We know that not doing that can indeed reduce your lifespan.

即使不是直接导致，也一定会间接地通过增加事故风险，以及显著降低白天的幸福感和精力水平来影响寿命。

If not directly, then certainly indirectly by increased number of accidents and certainly being far less happy and energetic during the day.

因此，这一点同样至关重要，必须特别强调。

So that's fundamental also, and this is very important to emphasize.

在这里，我几乎是直接引用了彼得·奥尔蒂斯医生的话。

And here I'm essentially borrowing the words straight out of Doctor.

彼得·奥尔蒂斯的原话。

Peter Ortiz's mouth.

所以，请原谅我，彼得。

So forgive me, Peter.

我的表达远不如彼得那样优雅简洁，但非常明确的是，目前没有任何补充剂或药物能接近高质量睡眠和充足优质运动所带来的、与长寿相关的健康指标改善。

This won't be nearly as eloquent or succinct as Peter would make it, but it is very, very clear that at present, there is no supplement or drug for increasing longevity that even comes close to the known improvements in health metrics that relate to longevity that come from getting quality sleep and especially from getting sufficient amounts of quality exercise.

这意味着你需要结合有氧运动，每周至少进行180到220分钟的所谓二区有氧运动。

So that means both a combination of cardiovascular exercise, a minimum of one hundred and eighty to two twenty minutes of so called zone two cardio per week.

也就是说，这种有氧运动可以在你还能正常交谈的强度下进行，但如果你再提高强度，就会难以完整说出一句话。

Okay, so that's cardio that you can carry out while still maintaining a conversation, but should you increase the intensity anymore, you would have a hard time completing your sentences.

除此之外，还要做一些最大摄氧量训练，每周至少一次让心率大幅提升；当然也要进行抗阻训练，无论是使用哑铃、器械还是自重训练，都要达到足够强度，每周每个肌群至少做六组，以维持肌肉的大小和力量，同样重要甚至更为重要的是维持神经与肌肉的连接，这与认知功能及其他多种重要的长寿指标密切相关。

But in addition to that, also doing some VO2 max work, so getting your heart rate way, way up at least once per week, and also of course doing resistance training, either with weights, machines, or body weight, doing that at sufficient intensity, six sets minimum per body part per week to maintain not just muscular size and strength, but equally important, perhaps even more important, maintaining nerve to muscle connectivity, which correlates with cognitive function and a number of other important longevity metrics.

因此，运动、睡眠、优质营养、良好的社交关系——这意味着尽可能消除有害的社交关系，增加你喜爱并享受相处、能让你感到充实的人际互动，压力调节，这些因素都至关重要，当然还有早晨的阳光。

So again, exercise, sleep, quality nutrition, quality social connection, which means eliminating as best you can toxic social connection and increasing quality social connection, people that you like and enjoy spending time with and feel enriched by, stress modulation, all of these things are so key and of course, getting morning sunlight.

所有这些因素综合起来，其效果远远超过任何你可能服用的药片、胶囊或输液产品。

All of those things combined to have a huge outsized effect compared to anything that you could take in pill capsule or infusion.

所以在考虑服用任何补充剂或药物来延长寿命，甚至只是提升活力之前，先确保做好睡眠、阳光、营养、运动、压力调节（更准确地说是压力管理）以及人际关系这些基础。

So before even considering taking any supplement or drug to increase your longevity or even for increasing vitality for that matter, get those basics of sleep, sunlight, nutrition, movement, stress modulation, or stress control, should say, and relationships down.

把这些基础做好，并且每天早晨接受阳光照射，以调节你的昼夜节律，因为你的昼夜节律是这一切的基石。

Get those right and get that morning sunlight to set your circadian rhythm because of course your circadian rhythm is what anchors it all.

如果我不再强调一次，那我就严重失职了：无论你何时考虑添加或停用某种补充剂，或开始或停用处方药，都绝对应该咨询你认证的医生。

And I'd be completely remiss if I didn't emphasize yet again that anytime you're thinking of adding a supplement or removing a supplement from your regimen or adding a prescription drug or removing a prescription drug, you absolutely should consult your board certified physician.

感谢您参与本场问答环节的开始部分。

Thank you for joining for the beginning of this Ask Me Anything episode.

要收听完整 episode 以及未来的这些问答环节，同时获取它们的文本稿，以及 Huberman Lab 播客标准频道和独家发布的高级工具，请访问 hubermanlab.com/premium。

To hear the full episode and to hear future episodes of these Ask Me Anything sessions, plus to receive transcripts of them and transcripts of the Huberman Lab Podcast Standard Channel and premium tools not released anywhere else, please go to hubermanlab.com/premium.

只是为了提醒大家我们推出 Huberman Lab 播客高级频道的初衷，其实有两个原因。

Just to remind you why we launched the Huberman Lab Podcast Premium Channel, it's really twofold.

首先，是为了支持标准的 Huberman Lab 播客频道，该频道仍将继续每周一完整发布。

First of all, it's to raise support for the standard Huberman Lab Podcast Channel, which of course will still be continued to be released every Monday in full length.

我们不会改变标准 Huberman Lab 播客的格式或任何内容，并且将资助针对人类的研究——不是动物模型，而是人类本身，我相信我们都认同这是最值得关注的物种；我们将专门资助旨在开发心理健康、身体健康和表现提升新方案的研究，这些方案将通过所有渠道发布，不仅限于高级频道，还包括 Huberman Lab 播客及其他媒体渠道。

We are not going to change the format or anything about the Standard Huberman Lab Podcast and to fund research, in particular research done on human beings, so not animal models, but on human beings, which I think we all agree is a species that we are most interested in, and we are going to specifically fund research that is aimed toward developing further protocols for mental health, physical health, and performance, and those protocols will be distributed through all channels, not just the premium channel, but through all channels, Huberman Lab Podcasts and other media channels.

因此，我们的目标是为您提供深入解答您最关心的问题，并让您有机会支持那些能提供这些答案的研究。

So the idea here is to give you information to your burning questions in-depth and allow you the opportunity to support the kind of research that provides those kinds of answers in the first place.

现在，高级频道一个特别令人兴奋的特色是，Tiny 基金会已慷慨承诺对通过高级频道筹集的所有研究资金进行一比一匹配。

Now, an especially exciting feature of the premium channel is that the Tiny Foundation has generously offered to do a dollar for dollar match on all funds raised for research through the premium channel.

这为他们放大通过高级频道流入的任何资金、进一步支持心理健康、身体健康和表现提升相关的科学与科学工具研究提供了一个绝佳方式。

So this is a terrific way that they're going to amplify whatever funds come in through the premium channel to further support research for science and science related tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.

如果您想注册Huberman Lab高级频道，每月费用为10美元，或者您可以一次性支付100美元购买全年服务。

If you'd like to sign up for the Huberton Lab premium channel, again, there's a cost of $10 per month, or you can pay $100 upfront for the entire year.

这将让您访问所有AMA内容。

That will give you access to all the AMAs.

您可以提出问题并获得针对您问题的回答，当然也能看到其他人的提问及其解答。

You can ask questions and get answers to your questions and you'll of course get answers to all the questions that other people ask as well.

此外，您还将获得一些高级内容，例如AMA的文本稿以及在其他地方找不到的Huberman Lab播客集锦和方案。

There will also be some premium content such as transcripts of the AMAs and various transcripts and protocols of Huberman Lab Podcast episodes not found elsewhere.

而且，您的支持将直接用于心理健康、身体健康和表现提升方面的研究。

And again, you'll be supporting research for mental health, physical health, and performance.

您可以通过访问hubermanlab.com/premium来注册高级频道。

You can sign up for the Premium channel by going to hubermanlab.com/premium.

再次提醒，网址是hubermanlab.com/premium。

Again, that's hubermanlab.com/premium.

一如既往，感谢您对科学的关注。

And as always, thank you for your interest in science.