培养好习惯与戒除坏习惯的最佳方法 | 詹姆斯·克利尔

这不是一个正式的术语，但对我们讨论的内容来说是有效的。

It's not a real term, but it works for what we're talking about.

所以我会简称为可塑性，抱歉，我刚才打断你了。

So I'll just say plasticity for short, but Sorry, I was cutting you off,

但我觉得‘自我导向’这一点非常重要。

but that is, I feel like the self directed piece is an important part there.

你知道，你的大脑一直在学习习惯，对吧？

You know, your brain's learning habits all the time, right?

无论你是否掌控，是否在意，你都会养成习惯。

You will learn habits whether you are in control or not, whether you care or not.

我认为这正是我们需要了解习惯是什么以及它们如何运作的好理由。

I think that's a good reason to want to know what they are and how they work.

真正的问题不在于你是否会养成新习惯，而在于你能否设计它们，对吧？

The real question is not whether you will gain new habits, it's whether you can design them, right?

或者能否掌控它们，是否能做到自我导向。

Or be in control of them, whether it can be self directed.

是的，我觉得值得稍微探讨一下这个问题，因为对于神经科学家来说，当他们学习可塑性时，会接触到发育性可塑性，这种可塑性在我们小时候人人都有。

Yeah, I mean, maybe it's worth exploring this a little bit because so for neuroscientists who learn about plasticity, you learn about developmental plasticity, which existed in all of us when we were kids.

它只是被动经历如何塑造我们的过程。

And it's just how passive experience shapes us.

而且这种可塑性非常强大，直到人们常说的25岁为止。

And it's very robust up until they always say till age 25.

但关于这一点，多语言学习在没有口音的情况下，15岁、20岁、25岁之后会变得困难得多，而40岁、45岁或60岁则相对容易一些。

But about that is when the window closes for like multi language learning without accents, becomes much, much more difficult after 15, 20, 25 than it does say at 40, 45 or 60.

有些人还是能做到，但需要付出更多努力。

Some people can do it, but it takes much more effort.

所以这是被动学习。

So that's passive learning.

但自我引导的部分很有趣，因为它有两种形式。

But the self directed piece is interesting because there are sort of two forms of that.

一种是探索性的，比如你试图去学习如何绘画，但你其实并不知道最终画出来会是什么样子。

One form is where it's explorative, like you're trying to, I don't know, figure out how to paint or figure out how to But you don't really know what the painting is going to be.

另一种被称为指导性可塑性。

The other is what is called instructional plasticity.

我想更准确的术语是自我导向的适应性指导性可塑性。

And I guess the strict term would be self directed adaptive instructional plasticity.

这么说起来有点拗口。

This way it gets to be kind of a mouthful.

听起来挺顺口的。

Sounds sticky.

是的，但‘指导性’意味着存在一个正确答案。

Yeah, but the instructional piece means there's a correct answer.

存在一个正确答案。

There's a correct answer.

神经科学家们熟知某些类型的学习，这类学习有明确的正确答案，神经系统需要掌握，比如从球场上特定位置投出罚球，或者用正确的发音在不同语言中说出某个词。

And neuroscientists are familiar with the fact that there's these certain forms of learning where there's a correct answer that the nervous system needs to learn, like how to shoot a free throw from a particular location on a court, for instance, how to state a word with a proper enunciation in different language, for instance.

因此，这里有对与错之分。

And so there's a right and there's a wrong.

比如这个叫米奇的人，他去了健身房，但五分钟后就离开了。

And the example of this guy, Mitch, who went to the gym and then left after five minutes.

我觉得这里有一种融合，他通过某种无意识的天赋意识到，正确的做法其实是进门，而他需要自己学会这一点，而不是整个锻炼过程。

I feel like there's a merge there where he through some unconscious genius realized that the right answer was getting in the door and had to teach himself that piece as opposed to the entire workout.

所以这仅仅是分块，对吧？

So that's just chunking, right?

但这需要一个前提，那就是首先要到达健身房。

But it requires that there's a prerequisite to getting in the gym and that's just going there in the first place.

如果我们试图学习整个锻炼流程，那就太多了。

And if we're trying to learn how to do an entire workout, it's too much.

或者，如果我们试图学习如何表现得非常出色，我们实际上是在学习五十个甚至一千个东西。

Or if we're trying to learn how to perform really well, we're really trying to learn 50 or a thousand things.

所以

So

这种分块技巧表面上看很简单，但我觉得教学可塑性告诉我们：我们需要先学会正确的答案，然后再将它们叠加起来。

this business of chunking, it's so simple on the face of it, but I feel like instructional plasticity says, we need to learn the right answers and then stack those.

所以我认为他并不疯狂。

And so I don't think he was crazy.

我认为他真的抓住了要点，而且非常契合神经科学的观点。

I think he was really onto something and really in tune with what the neuroscience says.

人们常常以为自己在简化问题或让事情变简单，但他们没有意识到其中涉及多少步骤。

People often think they're keeping it simple or making it simple, but they don't realize how many steps are involved.

比如，仅仅只是去健身房这件事。

Like let's take just getting to the gym.

别管锻炼了，就只是到达那里。

Forget about the workout, but just getting there.

你会去哪家健身房？

Which gym will you go to?

你打算什么时候去？

What time are you gonna go?

你是上班前去还是下班后去？

Are you going before work or after work?

你是路上顺道去，还是专门为了健身去？

Are you stopping by on your way or as on your commute?

你需要单独开车过去吗？

Do you need drive separately?

你会带水瓶去，还是健身房有饮水机？

Are you gonna bring a water bottle or do they have water fountains at the gym?

光是这件事听起来就挺傻的。

That alone sounds like a silly thing.

但我曾经收到一位读者来信，他说我总是忘记带水瓶，而那里又没有饮水机。

But I heard from a reader one time who said, I always forget my water bottle and they don't have water fountains there.

所以我就不想去了。

So I don't feel like going.

这些小障碍足以让人放弃锻炼。

That's enough friction to prevent somebody from doing the workout.

对吧？

Right?

就像有这么多小步骤一样。

Like there's so many little steps like that.

那你打算穿什么？

And you, what are you going to wear?

你的衣服干净了吗？

Do you have the, are the clothes cleaner?

它们现在在洗衣房里吗？

Are they in the laundry right now?

有太多事情可能阻止你去做了。

Like there's so many things that could prevent it from happening.

所以，只要学会开始，就能让你早早跨越所有这些障碍，弄清楚我该如何每周坚持下去。

So just mastering, getting started forces you to cross all of those thresholds early on and figure out how do I get in here week in and week out.

一旦你解决了这个问题，那就好极了，我们可以接着讨论具体的锻炼内容了。

And then once you got that part licked, then okay, great, we can move on to what the actual workout should be.

如今，我和其他许多人听到并谈论这样一个观点：努力本身就成了回报。

These days, I and many others hear about and talk about this idea that the effort becomes the reward.

我的意思是，这可以说是这一切的终极目标，对吧？

I mean, that's sort of the holy grail of all this, right?

我认为这是可以实现的。

And I think that can happen.

我的意思是，这带点自虐的意味。

I mean, has sort of masochistic tones to it.

几年前，我曾是个约会中的女人，我们现在还是好朋友。

Years ago, I was a dating woman, we're still good friends.

我记得有一次她对我说：顺其自然，别硬抗。

And I remember one time she just said to me, she said, Flow, don't fight.

我当时说：你在说什么？

And I was like, What are you talking about?

她说：你做的一切都是在强迫自己去做，尽管你其实很享受这些活动。

And she said, Everything that you do is you're sort of like pushing yourself into doing it, even though you really enjoy these activities.

我们说的是与工作相关的活动。

And we're talking about work related activities.

我当时想，哦，所以你是说你要顺其自然地对待一切事情？

And I was like, Oh, so you just like flow into everything that you do?

她就说，对啊。

And she's like, Yeah.

她来自加拿大东部。

She was from Eastern Canada.

而且

And

我问，那里的人都是这样的吗？

I was like, everyone up there like that?

她说，不，实际上我爸爸或者她家里的某个人是个渔夫，得一大早起床，到寒冷的海上去。

And she's like, No, actually, my dad or someone in her family is like a fisherman had to get up early in the morning, go out in the cold.

所以她是个坚韧的人，非常坚韧，最近刚完成了研究生学位。

So she was a hardy person, a very hardy person, a hard worker just recently finished a graduate degree in fact.

我当时想，这个‘顺其自然，不要对抗’的说法真有意思，因为我觉得我每天醒来都会想，好吧，我得做这个，我得做那个，但这些其实都是我热爱的机会。

And I was like, this flow don't fight thing is interesting because I feel like across my day, I do wake up and I'm like, all right, have to do this need to And these are opportunities that I love.

当然。

Sure.

我一直在想，我们踩油门的时间是不是有限的？

And I've thought to myself, do we only have so much time on the gas pedal?

也许她是对的。

Maybe she's right.

也许我们需要在一天中的某些时候顺其自然，让自己处于自动模式，以便在面对真正阻碍我们的事情时能更奋力拼搏。

Maybe we need to flow through certain parts of our days where we're just kind of on inautomatic so that we can fight harder against the things that are really barriers for us.

从今天早上醒来起，我就一直想问詹姆斯这个问题。

I've been wanting since I woke up this morning, I'm like, I got to ask James this question.

你认为我们能否在顺其自然和奋力拼搏之间切换？

Do you think there's a way that we can kind of toggle flow and fight?

这是个有趣的问题。

That's an interesting question.

我有两个想法。

So I have two thoughts.

第一个想法是，很长一段时间里，我一直在纠结这个问题：我是否必须感到不满才能有动力？

First thought is for a long time I wrestled with this question of, do I have to be dissatisfied to be driven?

这是其中的一部分吗？

Is is that part of it?

是否正是因为我想到了自己想要达到的目标或想要完成的事情？

Is that is part of it that I have this vision for where I want to be or what I want to accomplish?

然后我看看自己当前的状态，意识到我和目标之间存在差距。

And then I look at my current state and I realize there's a gap between where I am and where I want to be.

而对这种差距的不满，正是推动你前进的动力。

And that dissatisfaction with that gap is what drives you forward.

正是那种想要弥合差距的驱动力，让你能够现身、努力工作、参加考试或采取行动，你知道的？

It's the it's the drive to close the gap that gets you to show up and work hard or take the test or do the thing, you know?

我认为，在我人生的许多时候，这确实是推动我的主要力量。

And I think certainly there are many times in my life when that has been the driving force.

但我认为最健康的回应，或者说对立观点是：想象一颗橡果从树上掉下来，它成功生根并开始生长。

But the healthiest response I think that I've come up with or the counterpoint is imagine that like an acorn falls from a tree and you know, it manages to take roots and starts to grow.

一开始它只是一颗小小的橡果，然后长成幼苗，接着慢慢长成一棵高大的成熟橡树。

And you know, at first it's just this little acorn and then it's a sapling and then it's, you know, grows into this large mature oak.

在这个过程中，它从未责备自己只是一颗橡果，或只是一株幼苗，责备自己还不够成熟、还不够高大、还未达成目标。

And at no point in that process did was it like berating itself for only being an acorn or for only being a sapling, For not being enough yet, for not being big enough, for not having achieved that outcome.

没有人会看着它说：‘哦，真是个失败者。’

Nobody looks at it and thinks, oh, what a failure.

你还没长成一棵完整的橡树呢。

You aren't a full oak tree yet.

然而，尽管没有这种不满情绪，它依然在持续生长。

And yet despite that there isn't this dissatisfaction going on, it continues to grow.

我想，原因在于，橡树生长只是因为它本就该如此。

And I think the answer there is it grows simply because that is what an Oak tree does.

它生长，是因为这是它与生俱来的使命。

It grows because that is what is it is encoded to do.

因此，我觉得最健康的状态就是顺其自然，去感受并接纳：我内心真正被赋予的使命是什么？

And so I feel like the healthiest version of me, just flowing with it, you know, or just stepping into it is what do I feel like I'm encoded to do?

你知道吗，我几乎觉得我生来就是为了做这件事，这就是我的优势。

You know, like I was almost like I was made for this, you know, this is my strength.

这就是我喜欢的。

This is what I like.

它让我充满激情。

It lights me up.

它让我感到充满活力。

It makes me feel alive.

然后我可以非常有动力，而且此刻并不感到不满。

And then I can be quite driven, and not feel dissatisfied at the moment.

所以我想，那大概是我第一时间想到的事情。

So I think that was like kind of the first thing that I that came to mind.

第二点是，我有过这样的经历：努力本身就是回报，工作本身就是胜利，或者人们想怎么表达都行。

The second piece is I have had this experience where the effort has been the reward, where the the the work is the win or what, know, whatever people wanna phrase it.

做这件事本身就是满足感，但我很少能立刻获得这种体验。

Doing the thing is the satisfaction, but rarely do I have that experience right away.

这是随着时间积累的。

Has come with time.

比如锻炼对我来说就是一个很好的例子。

So like working out is a very good example for me.

我已经训练了十五年或二十年了。

I've been training for fifteen or twenty years now.

是的，像其他人一样，我也想要所有同样的东西，对吧？

And yeah, like I want all the same things everybody else does, right?

我想保持健康。

I wanna be healthy.

你想看起来很棒。

You wanna look good.

你希望通过锻炼获得各种各样的结果。

You you have all these like outcomes that you want from working out.

但过去几年，我开始越来越多地锻炼，仅仅是因为锻炼时我的感受。

But the last couple of years I have started to train more and more just because of how I feel when I work out.

我喜欢运动带给我的感觉。

I like how it makes me feel.

现在我不必再等待了。

And now I don't have to wait.

我不必等两年才能看到镜子里的自己。

I don't have to wait two years to see how I look in the mirror.

当我做这一组动作时，我就感觉很好。

Like I feel good when I'm doing this set.

因此，这变得更关乎体验，以及做运动时我自己的感受。

And so it becomes more about the experience and liking how I feel when I'm doing it.

用我的语言和《原子习惯》的说法，这就是我所说的身份认同型习惯。

In my language and the atomic habits language, it's what I call identity based habits.

每次我出现并锻炼时，我都在为成为那种坚持锻炼的人、成为运动员、成为从不错过训练的人投上一票。

Every time that I show up and workout, I am casting a vote for being the type of person who works out for being an athlete, for being the type of person who doesn't miss workouts.

每当我为成为这样的人投上一票，我都会对自己感到满意。

And every time I cast a vote for being that type of person, I feel good about myself.

我觉得我正在现身，并成为我想成为的那种人。

I feel like I'm showing up and being the kind of person I want to be.

我觉得我正在强化我所期望的身份。

I feel like I'm reinforcing my desired identity.

我认为这是《原子习惯》中最有共鸣的概念之一，那就是不要一开始就问：我想要实现什么？

And I think this is one of the, it certainly is one of the concepts from Atomic Habits that has resonated with most with people, which is rather than starting your habits and asking, what do I wish to achieve?

我想要达成什么？

What do I wish to accomplish?

而是要先问：我想成为什么样的人？

You start by asking who do I wish to become?

我的习惯是如何强化这种期望的身份的？

And how are my habits reinforcing that desired identity?

我是否在为成为那样的人投下选票？

Am I casting votes for being that type of person?

你采取的每一个行动，都是在为你想成为的那种人投下选票。

Every action you take is like a vote for the type of person you wish to become.

所以，如果你在周二晚上坐下来学习二十分钟，你就是在为成为勤奋的人投下了一票。

So if you sit down and you study for twenty minutes on Tuesday night, you are casting a vote for being studious.

如果你在外面打一个小时篮球，你就是在为成为篮球运动员投下了一票。

If you shoot a basketball for an hour outside, you cast a vote for being a basketball player.

单个来看，这些都是一些小事。

And individually, those are small things.

在任何特定的时刻，它们似乎都没什么大不了的。

They don't really mean a whole lot, you know, in any given moment.

但如果你持续三个月、六个月或一年，日积月累，终会跨越某个无形的临界点，那时你会说：没错，成为篮球运动员一定是我身份的重要组成部分。

But collectively, if you do it for three months or six months or a year, you cross this invisible threshold at some point where you say, yeah, being a basketball player must be a big part of who I am.

你会开始为自己是这样的人而感到自豪。

And you start to take pride in being that kind of person.

如果你为此感到自豪，如果它成为了你故事的一部分，你就会努力维持这个习惯。

And if you take pride in it, if it becomes part of your story, then you'll fight to maintain the habit.

于是，情况突然就反转了。

And now all of a sudden the situation is flipped.

现在你是在努力去做，而不是努力不去做。

Now you're trying to do it rather than trying not to do it.

与其试图激励自己坚持下去，不如直接说这是我的一部分。

You know, rather than trying to motivate yourself to stick to it, you're just saying this is part of who I am.

比如，我起床去跑步，是因为我是个跑者，而不是因为三个月后有个半程马拉松。

You know, like I get up and I go for a run because I'm a runner, not because I have a half marathon in three months.

我这么做，是因为我喜欢成为这样的人。

I'm doing it because I like being this kind of person.

所以我认为，值得思考的问题是：我的行为在强化什么？

So I think the question of what are my actions reinforcing?

我的习惯如何滋养我想要的身份，这是一个值得探索的问题。

How are my habits feeding my desired identity is an interesting thing to play with.

我认为这是我们每个人都应该问自己的一个重要问题。

And I think an important question for all of us to ask ourselves.

是的，我承认，对我而言，阻力是一个很好的动力。

Yeah, I confess that friction for me is a great motivator.

我在博士后期间实际上处于一场科学竞赛中，当我刚开始建立自己的实验室时，我觉得这太棒了。

I was in essentially a scientific competition in my postdoc years, also when I started my lab and I was like, this is great.

我总有一个不断需要对抗的目标。

Like I have something constantly to push against.

我很享受这份工作。

And I enjoyed the work.

你所说的摩擦是指什么？

What kind of friction do you mean?

比如有一个

Like having a

一个我们与之竞争的大实验室。

A big lab that we were competing with.

那是一个新兴领域，许多新工具刚刚出现。

And it was a new area, a bunch of tools had arrived on the scene.

我们正在开发工具，他们也在开发工具，竞争非常激烈。

We were developing tools, they were developing tools and it was very, very competitive.

我当时就想，这太棒了。

And I was like, this is so great.

感觉像一场小小的军备竞赛。

Felt like a little arms race.

没错，他们拿到了他们的成果，我们也拿到了我们的，一切都顺利解决了。

Yeah, and it was, and they got their piece and we got our piece and it all worked out.

但我认为竞争能激发出这种动力。

But I think competition can bring that out.

我觉得这其实非常健康，当然也提高了焦虑水平。

And I think it was really healthy and it raised the anxiety level certainly.

因为在科学领域，你真的可能被抢先发表。

Because in science, you can actually get scooped.

你可能花了多年时间非常努力地工作，却被人抢先一步。

You can work very, very hard for a lot of years and someone can beat you to the punch.

你得告诉学生或博士后，我们要重新开始了。

And you have to tell the student or postdoc like we are resetting.

当我做博士后的时候，这真的很可怕。

And when I was the postdoc, it was scary.

所以你会努力寻找一个相对有把握的角落，确保无论发生什么你都能挺过去，但情况并不总是如此。

So you try and find your corner where there's a bit more assurance that you're going to be okay no matter what, but it's not always the case.

尤其是当你选择那些非常及时的问题时，比如新的工具刚刚出现，可以回答人们长期以来想解决的问题。

Especially if you pick the problems that are like very timely, like the tools just became available to answer questions that people have wanted to answer for a long time.

然后这就变成了一团乱麻。

And it's just a cluster.

所以我曾经想，天啊，这不健康吗？

And so I used to think, gosh, is this unhealthy?

这真的非常不健康。

It's just like really unhealthy.

我凌晨四点就醒来去实验室，拼命赶超他们。

I'm waking up at four in the morning and going to lab and like beating them.

我在想，我在开玩笑吗？

I'm like, no, are you kidding me?

这曾是我职业生涯的一部分，但我不会想永远这样下去。

Like it was part of building my career, but I wouldn't want to do that forever.

所以，那种心流的感觉听起来真的非常好。

And so the flow piece sounds really, really nice.

同时，我也完全同意你所说的，在摩擦中会涌现出一些突破，比如‘哦，这五分钟进展得真不错’。

And at the same time, I don't know, I agree completely with what you said that in the friction, get these sort of breakthroughs of like, Oh, this went well for five minutes.

我真的很享受这个过程。

I really enjoy this.

你会开始珍惜这些短暂的时刻。

And you start to hold onto those pockets.

你说你真的很享受锻炼、这套动作。

You said you really enjoy the workout, the set.

我对此深有共鸣。

I feel a lot of resonance with that.

我其实很喜欢锻炼，但你是少数几个我认识的不会说‘我喜欢锻炼完后的那种感觉’的人。

I actually like exercising, but you're one of the few people I've ever met that doesn't say, Oh, I like how I feel afterwards.

我喜欢运动后的感受，但也喜欢运动时当下的感觉。

I like how I feel afterwards, but I also like how it feels in the moment.

听起来你也是一样。

It sounds like you do as well.

是的，我喜欢这个行为本身。

Yeah, I like the act of it.

我喜欢这种练习的过程。

I like the practice of it.

是啊，也就是说，这是你必须努力争取来的一种天赋。

Yeah, mean, that's a gift that you had to work for.

我觉得是的。

I think so.

就像你刚才说的，很难想象自己总是处于那种心流状态，或者总是对它有那样的感觉。

I, you know, well, to the point that you just made, it's hard for you to imagine always being in that flow or always feeling that way about it.

而且竞争也可以非常健康。

And also the competition can be very healthy.

我同意。

I agree.

我觉得两者都是。

I think it's both.

我几乎会抵制任何声称自己始终处于其中一种状态的人。

And I almost, I resist anybody who would say that they're always in one or the other.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为每个人都会时不时地处于这两种状态中。

I think everybody's in both from time to time.

你提到实验室之间的竞争，这对培养习惯也很有启发。

And, your point about the competition between the labs, that's instructive for building habits too.

有时候，当事情有风险时，确实会很有帮助。

Sometimes it really helps if things have stakes.

我发现，如果没有风险，我很难真正在意。

I find that it's actually quite hard for me to care if there are no stakes.

我希望有一些真正重要的东西。

I want there to be something that matters.

最终，这就是我决定在网上分享我的想法的原因。

Ultimately, that's why I decided to start sharing my ideas online.

我当时在一家骨科诊所实习，那是很多年前的夏天。

I was working at an orthopedic practice, just doing like an internship over the summer.

那是很多年前的事了。

This is many years ago.

我开始写关于习惯的内容，后来，没有人要求我这么做。

And, I started writing about habits and eventually, and nobody asked me to.

我只是因为对此感兴趣才在做的。

I just was doing it because I was interested in it.

我写了一个长达60页的Word文档。

And I got this word doc that was like 60 pages long.

那只是詹姆斯对习惯的一些想法。

It was just like James's thoughts on habits.

在Word文档里写东西有点无聊。

And writing in the word doc is kind of boring.

没什么压力，你知道的？

There are no stakes, you know?

所以我想，终究我得把这些内容发布出去，看看到底好不好。

So I was like, well, eventually I need to put some of this up and just see, is it any good or not?

你知道的，人们喜不喜欢？

You know, do people like it or not?

最终这促成了jamesclear.com的诞生，进而有了《原子习惯》。

And eventually that led to jamesclear.com and eventually atomic habits.

但正因为有了压力，我才不得不提升自己的水平。

But the fact that there were stakes forced me to up my game.

我的本科专业是生物力学，我也拿到了商科学位。

My undergraduate degree is in biomechanics and I got a business degree as well.

所以我并没有心理学或神经科学的学位，而这可能是你预期一个写习惯主题的人会有的背景。

So I don't have a degree in psychology or neuroscience, which is kind of what I think you would expect somebody who writes about habits to have.

所以早期我一直在为此感到遗憾。

And so I was kind of lamenting that early on.

我对一个朋友说了这件事，他说，成为专家的方法就是每周都写关于这个主题的内容。

And I said that to a friend and he said, well, the way you become an expert is by writing about it every week.

于是我深深记住了这一点。

And so I just really internalized that.

于是接下来的三年里，我每周写两篇文章。

And so I wrote two articles a week for the next three years.

结果发现，如果你写了150篇关于习惯的文章，你一路上会学到很多东西。

And it turns out if you write 150 articles about habits, you learn a lot along the way.

因为这些都是公开的，每次都能被人批评。

And because it was public, I could get criticized every time.

我认为这让我的作品变得更好了。

And I think that made the work much better.

最终，你知道，我通过多方验证，逐渐整理出了一些关于这个话题的不错观点。

And ultimately, you know, I was able to triangulate my way to, you know, putting together some decent ideas about the topic.

建立习惯和抑制坏习惯与你的名字密不可分，反之亦然。

And building habits and suppressing bad habits is synonymous with your name and vice versa.

我想到了几个例子，德里克，来自《更多餐盘，更多日期》的人，他做在线健身和健康内容，两人都没有相关领域的正式培训，但都极其出色，真的非常出色。

I think there are several cases I can think of you, Derek, from More Plates, More Dates, who does online fitness and health content, neither of whom have formal training in the information they share, are both superb, like truly superb.

我稍微认识德里克，我认为他也特别努力，确保自己阅读时格外注重细节，确保传达的信息准确，并承认自己没有这方面的正式学术背景，抱歉。

And I know Derek a bit, and I think he also went out of his way to make sure that he was reading things with an extra attention to the detail, making sure that the communication about it was correct and acknowledging that he didn't have formal training in that area, formal academic training, forgive me.

因为所有这些内容——锻炼和健康，以及你可以实践的习惯——你也可以去练习它们。

Because all this stuff, exercise and health, as well as habits that you can practice them too.

当然，当然。

Sure, sure.

对吧？

Right?

我认为关键问题在于能力与资质之间的区别。

I think the big question is just competence versus credentials.

你知道，如果论点是：你并没有这方面的学位。

You know, if if the argument is, well, you don't have a degree in this.

这其实没告诉我任何信息。

Well, that doesn't really tell me anything.

但如果论点是这句话错了，好吧。

But if the argument is the sentence is wrong, okay.

那我们现在就有话题可聊了，你知道吗？

Well, now we have something to talk about, you know?

但如果这些句子是对的，而我只是没有学位，那也只能认了。

But if the sentences are right and I just don't have the degree, you know, too bad.

这根本不重要。

That's it doesn't matter.

对吧？

Right?

关键是这些观点对不对？

It's it's about are the ideas right?

这种中西部人的务实态度，我认为真的能引起人们的共鸣，因为那种与高可信度相关的象牙塔学术内容，往往让人觉得脱离了现实世界。

That's that Midwest sensibility practicality that I think really resonates with people because the problem with kind of ivory tower academic stuff that is associated with high levels of credibility is oftentimes people feel like it's, that people are out of touch with the real world.

而且显然，两者的结合非常好。

And obviously the merge of the two is great.

但我认为科学家们会来找你，现在你可以读一篇论文了。

But I think the scientists then come to you and now you can read a paper.

所以我认为

So I think that

它可以两者兼得。

It can be both.

也不必非得是竞争关系。

It doesn't need to be a competition either.

我认为重点只是，这些想法对不对？

I think the point is just, are the ideas right?

如果想法是对的，那就很好。

And if the ideas are right, then great.

如果想法是错的，那我就有一些需要学习的地方

And if the ideas are wrong, then I have some learning

去做。

to do.

它们在现实世界中有效吗？

Do they work in the real world?

显然，人们已经从这些中受益了。

And clearly people have benefited from these.

是的，我认为将努力本身视为奖励这种倾向是可能发生的。

Yeah, I think this attachment to making the effort the reward is something that can happen.

我认为这是一种自上而下的训练方式。

I think that it's a top down training.

我想听听你的看法。

I'd like your thoughts on this.

我们可以告诉自己，这种痛苦是好的。

We can tell ourselves, this pain is good.

这说明我正在变得更好。

This is me getting better.

我觉得在锻炼领域有两个非常具体的平行例子。

Like I think there are two kind of parallel examples in the world of exercise where it's very concrete.

我认为这与认知领域是相通的。

And I think it maps to the cognitive space.

但我认为阻力训练中令人惊叹的一点是‘泵感’这个概念。

But I think one of the incredible things about resistance training is this notion of the pump.

我的意思不是说我喜欢这种感觉，而是因为它给你提供了一个直观且感官上的窗口，让你看到如果正确地恢复、合理饮食等，未来会发生什么。

I mean, not because I enjoy it, but because it gives you a little visual and like sensory window into what will happen if you do things correctly, like recover and proper nutrition, etcetera.

你实际上能直观地感受到并体验到未来的变化。

Like you literally get a visual and a sensory window into the future.

在当下就能获得一些证据，证明你正在做对事情。

Have some kind of evidence that in the moment you're doing it right.

没错。

Yeah.

总的来说，你最终获得的，某种程度上类似于锻炼过程中的进步。

And in general, what you end up with, it sort of parallels that progress during the workout.

而跑步就不一样了，比如我穿着负重背心跑上一座陡峭的山坡时，肺部火烧火燎，恨不得把肺咳出来，感觉想吐。

Whereas with running, like if I run up a steep hill with a weight vest on, my lungs are burning, I want to cough up a lung, like I feel like I want to vomit.

我们可以告诉自己：这很好，说明我在进步，下次会更容易，但此刻你并不会觉得自己变快了。

We can tell ourselves like, this is good, this is me getting better, it will be easier the next time, but you don't feel faster in the moment.

你不会觉得：哦，这就是我现在比昨天真正更快时的感觉。

You're not like, oh, this is what it feels like to really be faster than I am on this current day.

所以我认为这两种体验都很重要。

And so I think both are important.

我把它们看作是我能给予自己的正面反馈的模板。

So I look at those as kind of templates for the positive feedback I can give myself.

比如当我有一段良好的写作或播客准备时间，正在认真查找论文时，我会想：这太棒了，真不错。

Like if I have a good stretch of writing or podcast prep, I'm like really finding papers, I'm like, this is so cool, this is great.

我会说：好吧，这真的很棒。

I'll say, okay, this is really good.

我们进入状态了。

Like we're in the groove.

这有点像健身房里的泵感。

That's sort of like the pump in the gym thing.

就像在朝着某个方向前进。

Like it's heading someplace.

但当事情真的像撞上砖墙一样，我觉得特别痛苦。

But then when things are really like running up against a brick wall and I was like, this is so painful.

我不得不教会自己说，好吧，这很好。

I've had to teach myself to say, okay, this is good.

这是我变得更好的表现。

This is me getting better.

这就是大脑学习的方式。

This is how the brain learns.

大脑通过经历摩擦来学习。

The brain learns by experiencing friction.

它不是通过经历表现来学习的。

It doesn't learn by experiencing performance.

我的意思是，我们不是从表现中学习的。

I mean, we don't learn from performance.

我们只从失败中学习，对吧？

We only learn from failure, right?

除非大脑不得不改变，否则它不会改变。

The brain won't change unless it has to change.

所以我想听听你对这一点在这一领域中的看法。

So I'd love your thoughts on this as it relates to the space.

我认为大多数人把习惯和学习理解为如何学习一门新语言或一种乐器，或者只是改变日常习惯，让自己更健康或更友善。

I think most people think of habits and learning like how to learn a new language or a musical instrument, or just changing one's daily routine so that one is healthier or kinder.

很多人只是在努力克服当混蛋的倾向。

A lot of people just struggle with kind of being jerks.

他们其实想表现得友善，但这很难。

And I think they're trying to be kind and it's hard.

如果这不是他们的天性，要养成友善的习惯是很困难的。

It's hard to develop the habit of being kind if that's not their nature.

那么，这些对你来说意味着什么？

So how do these things map for you?

很多时候，人们会抱怨写作习惯，比如写作太艰难、太困难，当下感觉非常吃力。

A lot of the time people will complain about writing habits, for example, writing so hard, writing so difficult, it feels so arduous in the moment.

有时我会提醒自己：没错，写作确实很难，而这正是它有效的原因。

And sometimes I try to remind myself, yeah, it does feel difficult and that's kind of why it works.

想象一下走进健身房，抱怨杠铃太重。

Imagine going into the gym and complaining that like the weights are heavy.

你会说：是啊，杠铃确实很重。

You're like, well, that's like, yes, the weights are heavy.

这正是你变得更强壮的原因。

That's why you're getting stronger.

写作很难，而这正是你变得更聪明的方式。

And the writing is hard and that's how you're getting smarter.

或者至少，让我们说这是你理清思路的方式。

Or at least let's say that's how you're clarifying your thoughts.

就像感觉重量很重，是你在变强的证据。

Just as the weights feeling heavy is evidence that you are getting stronger.

写作感到困难，是证据表明你正在强迫自己思考和厘清思路。

The writing feeling hard is evidence that you were thinking that you were forcing yourself to think and clarify.

因此，成长需要一些摩擦和张力。

So there is some friction, some tension that is necessary for growth.

我认为你所提到的，在当下给自己讲一个更好的故事，非常有帮助。

I think what you're referencing, telling yourself a better story in the moment is very helpful.

比如，是的，这确实很痛苦。

You know, like this is, yeah, it is painful.

这很难。

It is hard.

而这正是成长的一部分。

And this is part of what it means to grow.

我还觉得，提前或事后做一些事情来滋养这个过程，帮助你坚持下去，也是有帮助的。

I also think it's helpful to do some things either beforehand or afterward that can help feed that process to get you to show up.

例如，事先进行预演会非常有帮助。

So for example, beforehand, pre visualization can be really helpful.

我经常和我的孩子们练习这个，帮助他们想象美好的一天会是什么样子。

I practice this with my kids just trying to help them imagine what a good day would look like.

比如我一个儿子最近刚上幼儿园，第一天送他去的时候，他过得不太好。

You know, like my one son, he, he started preschool recently and the first day of drop off, he didn't have a good day.

他当时哭闹了一会儿。

He kind of, you know, cried and fussed a little bit.

不太愿意留下来。

Didn't really want to stay.

第二天，情况也差不多。

Second day, same sort of thing.

所以第三天，我说：好了，今天是上幼儿园的日子。

So the third day I said, all right, it's, you know, it's preschool day today.

他正要出门，我就说：等等，我们先吃早餐吧。

And he was like, and I was like, hold on, let's just, know, we're getting breakfast in the morning.

我说，你知道吗，你喜欢幼儿园，对吧？

I said, you know, you like preschool, right?

你真的很喜欢你的老师。

Like you really like your teachers.

他回答说，嗯。

He was like, yeah.

我说，你们昨天点心时间怎么样？

I said, what about you guys did snack time yesterday?

那很有趣。

That was fun.

对吧？

Right?

他说，嗯。

He's like, yeah.

我说，你得玩胶棒和蜡笔。

I said, you got to play with glue sticks and the crayons.

那是一个很有趣的活动。

Like that was a cool activity.

放学后你们做什么？

And what do you do after school gets done?

他说：哦，我们会去操场玩三十分钟之类的。

He was like, oh, we go out on the playground and we'll play for thirty minutes or whatever.

就这样了。

And that was it.

我就停在那里了。

I just stopped there.

但重点是我试图让他想象，如果一切顺利，美好的一天会是什么样子，对吧？

But the point is that I'm trying to get him to imagine what a good day would look like if it unfolds, right?

强调即将发生的积极体验部分。

Emphasize the positive parts of the experience that are about to happen.

你即将做哪些你喜欢的、对你有益的事情？

What are the things that you're about to do that you enjoy or that are good for you?

带着这个故事进入这一天。

And go into the day with that story in your mind.

我认为这会增加你顺利出现的可能性，也许我们只是运气好而已。

And I think that increases the odds that you're gonna show up and, you know, maybe we just got lucky.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

但那天他送孩子的时候状态很好。

But he had a good drop off that day.

听起来是美好的一天。

Sounds like a great day.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

听起来太棒了。

Sounds sounds awesome.

我也想这么做。

I wanna do it too.

嗯。

Yeah.

我打过一段时间棒球。

I played baseball for a while.

我打到了大学。

I played baseball through college.

当我小的时候，比如十岁、十二岁、十四岁的时候，我和爸爸会在每个赛季结束时，坐在后院的甲板上，一起回顾赛季中的精彩片段。

And when I was younger, like 10, 12, 14, my dad and I would do this thing where at the end of each season, we go and sit down in the back deck and we would kind of like replay the good parts of the season.

我们会谈论我们最好的比赛、最棒的胜利，以及我表现最好的那些时刻，或者任何进展顺利的事情。

We'd talk about our best games, the best wins, talk about either the best plays that I had had or things that went well or whatever.

他们只是想强调胜利，你知道的？

They're just trying to like emphasize the wins, you know?

所以，即使每个赛季我并不是表现最好的，甚至从来不是队里最出色的球员，但我每次结束赛季时都感觉很好。

And so I finished each season, even if it wasn't like the best season for me, I was never the best player on any team that I was on, but I finished it feeling good.

这能为你进入下一个赛季带来一点动力。

And that gives you a little bit of momentum going into the next season.

所以我认为核心问题是，无论你是提前想象还是事后复盘，你都在强调什么？

And so I think the core question, whether you're visualizing it ahead of time or rehearsing it afterward is what are you emphasizing?

我曾经听说过一个有趣的练习，你需要拿一张纸或两份文件。

There's this interesting exercise I heard of one time and you take a piece of paper or two documents.

这个游戏的唯一规则是你不能写下任何虚假的内容。

And the only rule of this game is that you can't write down anything that's false.

所以是的，你写下的每一件事都必须是真实的。

So yeah, it just has to be true if you write it down.

第一页，你要写下过去一年的故事，但这是负面版本。

The first page, you're going to write down the story of your last year, but it's the negative version.

所有发生过的糟糕事情、不如意的事，等等。

All the bad things that happened, the stuff that didn't go your way, whatever.

第二页，你要写下过去一年的故事，但这是正面版本。

The second page, you're going to write it down the story of your last year, but it's the positive version.

你所有的胜利、处理得很好的事情，也就是你最棒的日子。

All the wins you've had, the things that were worked out well, you know, your best days.

然后你看看这两张纸。

And you look at those two pieces of paper.

上面都没有谎言。

There are no lies on either one.

我想问题是，你每天更强调哪一种？

And I think the question is, which one are you emphasizing each day?

你知道吗？当你进入下一次经历时，你带着的是哪个故事？

You know, what story do you carry with you when you go into the next experience?

只要你不忽视现实，不忽略情况的真相以及你需要应对或面对的事情。

And as long as you are not ignoring reality, you know, as long as you're not ignoring the truth of the situation and what you need to manage or what you need to face.

我认为你总是应该对自己讲述更有力量的那个版本，总是带着让你感到鼓舞、有力量或积极的那一种。

I think you always want to tell yourself the more empowering one, you know, you always want to carry that version with you that makes you feel inspired or empowered or positive.

我认为这会增加你积极投入的可能性。

And that I think will increase the odds that you show up.

我不知道这是否一定会让你变得更善良，但它确实让你更有可能遇到这样的好事。

I don't know that it'll necessarily make you a kinder person, but certainly it puts you in a better position for things like that to happen.

所以我认为，你可以进行一些心理预演，让自己处于更好的状态，不仅是为了拥有美好的一天，更是为了更有可能表现出高水平。

So I think there is some mental rehearsal, let's say that you can do to put yourself in a better position to not only just have a good day, but also be more likely to perform at a high level.

到目前为止，我相信你们很多人都听过我说，我已经服用AG1十多年了。

By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade.

这确实是事实。

And indeed that's true.

我早在2012年就开始服用AG1，至今每天仍在服用，原因在于据我所知，AG1是市场上质量最高、成分最全面的基础营养补充剂。

The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day is because AG1 is to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还包含益生菌、益生元和适应原，以弥补你饮食中的任何不足，同时为紧张的生活提供支持。

What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet while also providing support for a demanding life.

由于AG1含有益生菌和益生元，它还有助于维持健康的肠道菌群。

Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.

肠道菌群由数万亿微小微生物组成，它们分布在你的消化道内，影响着你的免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康以及其他诸多方面。

The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.

坚持服用AG1有助于我的消化，增强免疫系统，并确保我的情绪和精神专注力始终处于最佳状态。

Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.

AG1现在推出了三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带味。

AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical.

虽然我一直很喜欢AG1的原味，尤其是加一点柠檬汁后，但我特别喜欢新的浆果味。

And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular.

味道非常好。

It tastes great.

不过话说回来，我确实喜欢所有口味。

But then again, I do love all the flavors.

如果你想尝试AG1和这些新口味，可以前往drinkag1.com/huberman领取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

目前，AG1正在免费赠送六份AGZ的试用装，AGZ是AG1新推出的睡眠配方，顺便说一句，它非常棒。

Right now, AG1 is giving away six free sample packs of AGZ, which is AG1's new sleep formula, which by the way is fantastic.

这是我唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。

It's the only sleep supplement I take.

它消除了我服用这么多药片的需要，我的睡眠从未如此好过。

It eliminates the need for all these pills and my sleep has never been better.

这个特别优惠包括六份免费的AGZ样品，以及三份AG1旅行装和一瓶维生素D3K2，随您的首次订阅赠送。

The special offer gives you six free samples of that AGZ, as well as three AG1 travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your first subscription.

只需前往drinkag1.com/huberman即可开始体验。

Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.

今天的节目还由Juve赞助。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Juve.

Juve生产医用级红光疗法设备。

Juve makes medical grade red light therapy devices.

现在，如果我在这档播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光线对我们生物学的惊人影响。

Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.

除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光已被证明能对细胞和器官健康的多个方面产生积极影响，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减轻疼痛和炎症，甚至提升线粒体功能和改善视力。

Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function and improving vision itself.

JuveLights的与众不同之处，也是我首选红光疗法设备的原因，在于它使用了经过临床验证的波长，即结合特定波长的红光和近红外光，以触发最佳的细胞适应反应。

What sets JuveLights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.

我个人每周大约使用三次到四次Juve全身面板，并且在家和旅行时都会使用Juve手持灯。

Personally, I use the Juve whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Juve handheld light both at home and when I travel.

如果你想尝试Juve，可以访问Juve拼写为joovv.com/huberman。

If you'd like to try Juve, you can go to Juve spelledjoovv.com/huberman.

Juve为所有Huberman Lab的听众提供独家折扣，最高可减免400美元。

Juve is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Juve products.

再次提醒，访问Juve拼写为joovv.com/huberman，即可享受最高400美元优惠。

Again, that's Juve spelledjoovv.com/huberman to get up to $400 off.

我认为，如果不先想象，就很难做到自己想做的事。

I think that it's very difficult to do what one wants to do without imagining it first.

我认为人们会害怕结果不如预期。

I think people get scared that the outcome won't be what they hope for.

就像对失败的恐惧，我觉得这种恐惧是非常真实的。

Like that fear of failure pieces, I think is very real.

关于活动后的反思，我想再稍微多说一点。

The post activity reflection, just want to hover on that for a second.

大约一年前，我们做了一期关于如何最佳学习和掌握知识的节目。

About a year ago, we did an episode on how best to study and learn.

这当然与神经可塑性有关，相关文献非常明确。

And this maps of course to neuroplasticity and the literature is very straightforward.

但在过去几年里，文献中出现了一个有趣的转变，明确表明：任何我们事后进行反思的内容，我们学得更快，记得更久。

But there's this interesting shift in the literature in the last couple of years, which clearly shows that anything that we reflect on later, we learn faster and we retain longer.

这是因为大部分学习本质上是对抗遗忘。

And it's because most all of learning is anti forgetting.

这听起来太显而易见了，每次我说这句话时，都像是在玩文字游戏，但其实不是。

And that sounds so obvious, it's like a giant duh, whenever I say that, just a play on words, but no.

我的意思是，我们每天接收海量的感官信息，但大部分都会被遗忘，要么是因为无关紧要，要么就是由于某种原因无法留存。

I mean, there's all this sensory information coming in, massive amounts and we forget most of it, it's either irrelevant or it just goes through for whatever reason and doesn't stick.

当学生阅读一段文字一到两次，甚至三四次时，他们会做哪些衍生行为？

When students, for instance, would read a passage once or twice or three times or four times, and they did all the derivations of do they take notes?

他们会做笔记吗？

Do they highlight?

他们会和朋友讨论吗？等等？

Do they talk about with friends, etcetera?

有两件事能让知识真正牢固掌握。

There are two things that really make things stick.

其中之一是自我测试，也就是事后反思，比如：‘哦，我之前学过这个吗？’

And one is self testing, just reflecting later like, Oh, did I happened?

呃，我不记得了。

Ugh, I don't remember that.

不，我答错了。

No, I got that wrong.

自我评估，尤其是低压力的自我评估，对于信息的长期保留极为有效。

Incredible for self evaluation and low stakes is incredibly powerful for retaining information.

另一件事是反思发生了什么，哪些做对了，哪些做错了，这其实正是你描述的那些练习和你孩子一天经历的情况，对吧？

And the other one was just reflecting on like what happened, what went right, what went wrong, which is really what you're describing about these exercises and your kid's day, right?

这让我想起了一些关于间隔重复的文献。

It reminds me a little bit of like the spaced repetition literature.

某种程度上，反思就像是间隔重复的另一种形式。

In a way, the reflection is like another instance of the spaced repetition.

你过一段时间再回来回顾，材料就会重新浮现，这增加了你记住它的可能性。

You come back to it later and it resurfaces the material and that increases the odds that you retain it.

是的，我教过许多本科和研究生课程，包括医学生，我可以告诉你，研究生和医学生普遍很有动力，因为 stakes 很高，班级规模较小，更像是一种社群氛围。

Yeah, having taught many undergraduate and graduate courses, medical students, can tell you, well, graduate students and medical students are universally motivated because the stakes are very high, classes are smaller, there's kind of more of a like community

他们也通过了入学筛选，对吧？

around- They've also passed a filter just to get in, right?

能来到这里本身就存在选择偏差。

There's a selection bias just to be there.

本科生则因学校、课程和专业等因素而有所不同。

Undergraduates, it varies by place and course and etcetera and major, etcetera.

但不管是不是他们的专业，我并不是说不同专业的人更有或更少动力。

But whether or not it's their major or not, I'm not saying different majors are more or less motivated.

但有趣的是，大多数学生都接触到了这些信息。

But what's interesting is that most students are exposed to information.

他们可能会为考试而学习，理想情况下确实如此。

They might study for the exam, ideally they do.

而他们下次以任何具体方式被评估这些内容时，就是考试了。

And then the next time that they are evaluated on that material in any kind of concrete way is on the exam.

那些真正自我测试或主动要求练习的学生——最优秀的学生总是会要求像小测验一样的预习练习，这几乎是必然的。

And the students that actually test themselves or that ask for some, the best students always ask for like a pre quiz quiz, inevitably best performing students.

我认为这仅仅是因为他们愿意在低风险的情况下承受犯错的痛苦，尽管这依然令人难受。

And I think this is just of just being willing to feel the pain of being wrong when they're very low stakes, it still sucks.

我们都不喜欢犯错。

None of us like to be wrong.

然后你决定把它发布到网上。

It's like, And you decide to put it online.

这些内容有错吗？

Is any of this wrong?

我们已经这么做了。

We've done that.

现在，我经历过几次痛苦的经历，当时我只是随口说了错话，或者开了个玩笑，结果被当成了真事。

Now having had a few painful experiences where I just said the wrong thing in passing or made a joke that was turned into a not joke.

我学得慢，

I'm a slow learner,

需要很多反馈。

need a lot of feedback.

我的那些笑话被剪掉了，还被放大了。

I mean, were jokes I made then were cut and exerted.

这些经历足够痛苦，以至于今后我会事无巨细地反复检查一切。

Those kinds of experiences are painful enough that you check everything with a fine tooth comb going forward.

事情就是这样的。

That's the way it is.

但我认为大多数人会不惜一切代价避免这种 scrutiny。

But I think most people will do anything to avoid that kind of scrutiny.

而我认为你愿意直面这种 scrutiny，让公众来检验你。

And I think your willingness to lean into that scrutiny and just have the general public kind of test you.

这些想法在哪些地方有效？

Like where are these ideas working?

在哪些地方无效？

Where are they not working?

这非常有力，因为在那些无效的地方，你永远都不会忘记。

Is so powerful because the places where they don't work, you'll never forget.

在那些有效的地方，你也永远都不会忘记。

The places where they work, you'll never forget.

我刚听一位朋友说，她有一种完美主义倾向，现在回望自己的人生，她发现每当看到别人做某件事时，只要她觉得自己不可能做得和他们一样好。

I just heard from a friend who said that she she had kind of this like perfectionist streak and she can look back now on her life and see that if there was a moment when she saw somebody doing something and she thought, oh, I couldn't be as good at them.

或者我不会成为这方面最棒的，

As good at that as they are, or I won't be the best at that.

她就会说服自己根本不去尝试，因为你知道，而且

Then she would talk herself out of trying at all because you know, and

这简直就是反成长型思维。

It's like anti growth mindset.

对。

Right.

嗯。

Yeah.

而且我思考过这个问题，因为虽然我觉得自己早期确实有一些类似完美主义的倾向，或者说有一种强烈的愿望，一定要做对才能做好。

Well, and I thought about that because I don't feel that way even though I feel like I did, especially early on have some like, I don't know if we call it perfectionist tendencies, but just like this very high desire to do it right in order to get it right.

但我并没有因此而放弃尝试。

But I don't feel like I did that, talk myself out of it.

我于是想，为什么会这样呢？

And I thought why was that?

那里有什么不同？

What was different there?

我脑子里最常见的想法是：我可以学会这个。

And the story that was in my head most of the time was I can learn this.

所以这根本不是关于比较，对吧？

So it wasn't even about a comparison, right?

这并不是说，我能做得更好或更差。

It wasn't like, oh, I could do it better or worse.

那不是重点。

That wasn't the thing.

而是我想，我应该能弄明白这件事。

It was, oh, I think I can figure that out.

弄明白这件事会很有趣。

And it'll be interesting to figure it out.

我认为，如果你能以这种好奇心的视角来对待所有的习惯，甚至生活中的很多事情，就不会太在意失败或成功。

I think if you can approach all of your habits and maybe a lot of life with this lens of curiosity, where it's not really about failing or succeeding.

重点在于探索，尝试新事物，然后看看你能从中学会什么。

It's about reaching, you know, it's about trying something new and then seeing what you can learn from it.

这样你也会处于一个更好的位置，因为竞争固然有其作用，我也自认为是个相当有竞争力的人，但当你不把一切都变成竞争，不一开始就非得做到最好时，会更好一些，因为你很容易因为这种想法而放弃很多事情。

That puts you in a good position too, because it's a little bit less about, you know, competition has its place and I consider myself to be a fairly competitive person, But it's nice when you don't make everything about that, you know, about being the best from the start because you can talk yourself out of a lot.

哦，我同意。

Oh, I agree.

我的意思是，我不断把自己置于各种场合——无论是学术的还是物理的——在那里，我根本不可能成为最优秀的那个。

And I mean, I have continually placed myself in venues, you know, academic and physical where there's no way I was going to be the best in that environment.

完全没有可能。

Just no chance.

这纯粹是出于竞争的需要，不是和我的同事比，而是和我所在机构之外的人比，这种竞争成了推动我付出额外努力的强大动力。

It was just the fuel of needing to compete in order to not with my colleagues, but with people outside my institution like to where it's a great motivator for doing that extra mile kind of thing.

我的意思是，我想Jocko也谈过类似的观点，比如在敌人之前醒来，当你刚开始当作家时，那时的代价是高风险、高后果的。

I mean, I guess Jocko talks about this, like waking before the enemy where the stakes there right before you became a writer, the stakes were high risk high consequence.

比如你不起得更早，你的人可能就会死。

Like you don't get up earlier, like of your people might die.

那可是相当高风险、高后果的，对吧？

That was pretty high stakes high consequence, right?

所以我认为，这种额外的阻力真的能激发出人们最好的一面。

And so I think that additional friction can really bring out people's best.

我也认为，到了某个阶段，这种压力可能会变得令人痛苦，以至于我们身边的人也会因此受苦。

I also think at some point it can become painful to the point where people around us obviously can suffer.

顺便说一下，Jocko确实如此，因为我认识他的家人，他除了做那么多事情之外，还真的每天早上4:30就起床。

Jocko by the way maintains, because I know his family, beautiful family in addition to doing all that forth, he legitimately gets up at 04:30 in the morning.

我和他一起做过桑拿。

I've done sauna with him.

我当时躺在地板上，喘不过气来。

Like I was a guy down on the floor gasping for air.

这本来是个以后再讲的笑话，但他管这叫‘工厂重置’。

It was kind of a joke story for another time, but he calls it the factory reset.

他想让我经历一下工厂重置的流程，那真是残酷至极。

And he wanted to put me through the factory reset protocol and it's brutal.

真的太残酷了。

It's just brutal.

我觉得他生活在一个摩擦即是回报的世界里，但同时，奖励也来自放松——这正是我想提到的，因为那天桑拿之后，我们其他人都收工休息了，而他却去看了一场演出。

And I think that he lives in a land where the friction is the reward, but also that the rewards come from relaxation too, which is what I wanted to bring up because after the sauna that night, the rest of us packed it in for the day and he went to see a show.

我当时想，哦，他也会放松啊。

I was like, Oh, he also relaxes.

我很好奇，追求的习惯如何能被真正放松的习惯所映射。

I'm curious about how the habit of striving can be also mirrored by the habit of real true relaxation.

不是想着你必须做的事或试图去构建，而是允许这种可塑性发生，不仅仅是在睡眠中，你是一个主动放松的人吗？

Not thinking about the thing you need to do or trying to build, but allowing that maybe plasticity to take place, not just in sleep, but are you an active relaxer?

比如，你会不会说现在是时候彻底放松了？

Like do you say now is time to just completely chill?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为一旦我决定放下，我就能很好地停止。

I think I'm pretty good at shutting off once when I decide to shut off.

我记得在蒂姆·费里斯的播客上，他曾邀请过乔什·韦德。

There was a I think it was on Tim Ferriss's podcast at one point and he had Josh Wade skin on there.

乔什提到他是如何做到的。

And Josh said something about how he was doing it.

他在参加武术比赛时，实际上在场边的长凳上睡着了。

He was in a martial arts competition and he was actually asleep on the bench on the side.

他们走过来叫醒他，说：‘嘿，我们搞错了你比赛的时间。’

And they came over and woke him up and they said, hey, we got the time wrong for your event.

你实际上只剩下两分钟就要上场了。

Like you're actually up in like two minutes.

于是你从睡梦中醒来，他们做了一些赛前仪式，就像 flip the switch 一样，你立刻准备好了。

And so you like woke up out of the sleep and they did this little like pre competition ritual and just like flip the switch and was ready to go.

他谈到了能够随时启动和关闭的重要性。

And he talked about this importance of being able to turn it on and turn it off.

自从听到他这个例子后，我就一直在思考启动和关闭这个概念。

And ever since I've heard that example from him, I've been thinking more about this idea of turning it on and turning it off.

你知道，你冲刺之后就要休息。

You know, you sprint and then you rest.

这种模式在日常生活中是什么样子的？

What does that look like in daily life?

实际上我认为，首先，这有点像分形结构。

And I actually think, first of all, I think it's kind of fractal.