治愈所有人类疾病与健康及科技的未来 | 马克·扎克伯格与普莉希拉·陈博士

欢迎来到Huberman实验室播客，我们在这里探讨科学及基于科学的日常生活工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天的嘉宾是马克·扎克伯格和普莉希拉·陈医生。众所周知，马克·扎克伯格是Facebook公司的创始人。

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guests today are Mark Zuckerberg and Doctor. Priscilla Chan. Mark Zuckerberg, as everybody knows, founded the company Facebook.

他现在是Meta公司的首席执行官，旗下包括Facebook、Instagram、WhatsApp等技术平台。普莉希拉·陈医生毕业于哈佛大学，后在加州大学旧金山分校获得医学学位。马克·扎克伯格与普莉希拉·陈医生是夫妻，也是陈·扎克伯格倡议（CZI）的联合创始人，这个慈善组织的公开目标是治愈所有人类疾病。

He is now the CEO of Meta, which includes Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, and other technology platforms. Doctor. Priscilla Chan graduated from Harvard and went on to do her medical degree at the University of California, San Francisco. Mark Zuckerberg and Doctor. Priscilla Chan are married and the co founders of the CZI or Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, a philanthropic organization whose stated goal is to cure all human diseases.

陈·扎克伯格倡议通过提供其他渠道无法获得的关键资金，以及建立探索细胞基本功能的新框架，分类所有人类细胞类型，并提供人工智能平台来挖掘这些数据，以发现治疗所有人类疾病的新途径和方法，正在实现这一目标。今天讨论的前一小时是与普莉希拉·陈医生和马克·扎克伯格共同进行的，我们讨论了CZI及其试图治愈所有人类疾病的真正意义。我们谈到了CZI背后的动机，这深深植根于他们各自的个人历史。实际上，你会从普莉希拉·陈医生那里了解到很多。

The Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is accomplishing that by providing critical funding not available elsewhere, as well as a novel framework for discovery of the basic functioning of cells, cataloging all the different human cell types, as well as providing AI or artificial intelligence platforms to mine all of that data to discover new pathways and cures for all human diseases. The first hour of today's discussion is held with both Doctor. Priscilla Chan and Mark Zuckerberg, during which we discuss the CZI and what it really means to try and cure all human diseases. We talk about the motivational backbone for the CZI that extends well into each of their personal histories. Indeed, you'll learn quite a lot about Doctor.

我必须说，普莉希拉·陈医生有着令人难以置信的家庭故事，这些故事引导她成为医生，并激发了她对CZI及其他事业的动机。你还会从马克那里了解到，他如何将工程和人工智能的视角带入人类疾病新疗法的探索中。今天讨论的后半部分仅在我与马克·扎克伯格之间进行，我们讨论了包括社交媒体平台在内的各种Meta平台，以及它们对儿童和成人心理健康的影响。我们还讨论了VR（虚拟现实）、增强现实和混合现实。此外，我们探讨了人工智能（AI）及其如何不仅改变我们在社交媒体和其他技术上的在线体验，还有可能改变日常生活的方方面面。

Priscilla Chan, who has, I must say, an absolutely incredible family story leading up to her role as a physician and her motivations for the CZI and beyond. And you'll learn from Mark how he's bringing an engineering and AI perspective to discovery of new cures for human disease. The second half of today's discussion is just between Mark Zuckerberg and me, during which we discuss various meta platforms, including of course social media platforms, and their effects on mental health in children and adults. We also discuss VR, virtual reality, as well as augmented and mixed reality. And we discuss AI, artificial intelligence, and how it stands to transform not just our online experiences with social media and other technologies, but how it stands to potentially transform every aspect of everyday life.

在开始之前，我想强调，这个播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究角色是分开的。然而，这是我向公众免费提供科学及科学相关工具信息的一部分愿望和努力。秉承这一主题，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。我们的第一个赞助商是Element。Element是一种电解质饮料，包含了你所需的一切，但没有任何多余成分。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need, but nothing you don't.

这意味着电解质——钠、镁和钾——都以正确的比例存在，但不含糖分。适当的水分补充对大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。即使是轻微的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。获取足够的电解质同样重要。电解质——钠、镁和钾——对你体内所有细胞的功能，尤其是神经元或神经细胞的功能，至关重要。

That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.

将Element溶解在水中饮用，可以非常容易地确保你获得足够的水分和电解质。为了确保我获得适当的水分和电解质，我早上醒来时会将一包Element溶解在大约16到32盎司的水中，这是我早上第一件要做的事。在进行任何形式的体育锻炼时，我也会饮用溶解在水中的Element。他们有多种美味的Element口味，如西瓜味、柑橘味等。

Drinking Element dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of Element in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning. I also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing. They have a bunch of different great tasting flavors of Element. They have watermelon, citrus, etcetera.

坦白说，我全都喜欢。如果你想尝试Element产品，可以访问drinkelement.comhubermanlab，购买任何Element饮品混合包即可免费领取样品。重申一次，通过drinkelement.com/hubermanlab可免费申领样品包。现在我将与马克·扎克伯格和陈慧娴医生展开对话。

Frankly, I love them all. If you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.comhubermanlab to claim a free Element sample pack with the purchase of any Element drink mix. Again, that's drinkelement.com/hubermanlab to claim a free sample pack. And now for my discussion with Mark Zuckerberg and Doctor. Priscilla Chan.

慧娴、马克，非常高兴见到你们，感谢邀请我来你们家中做客。

Priscilla, Mark, so great to meet you and thank you for having me here in your home.

噢，谢谢邀请我们上播客。是的。

Oh, thanks for having us on the podcast. Yeah.

我想聊聊陈·扎克伯格倡议（CZI）。几年前当我的实验室还在斯坦福时——现在也仍在——就了解到这个令人振奋的慈善项目，它肩负着真正宏大的使命。我简直无法想象还有比这更宏大的目标。或许你们可以告诉我们这个伟大使命是什么，然后我们再深入探讨如何实现这个宏伟目标的具体机制。

I'd like to talk about the CZI, the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative. I learned about this a few years ago when my lab was and still is now at Stanford as a very exciting philanthropic effort that has a truly big mission. Like, I can't imagine a bigger mission. So maybe you could tell us what that big mission is, and then we can get into some of the mechanics of how that big mission can become a reality.

正如你提到的，我们在2015年发起了陈·扎克伯格倡议。CZI的初衷是思考如何为所有人构建更美好的未来，寻找途径将我们的资源以慈善方式投入，结合我与马克的经验——我作为医生和教育者，马克作为工程师——以及我们组建团队的能力来培养建设者。马克的整个职业生涯都在从事建设，如果我们真正组建团队来开发工具、推动伟大科学进步会怎样？在我们的科学项目中，我们始终聚焦于一个目标——有些人认为这个目标要么极其大胆，要么必然实现。但我认为只要我们持续专注，这个目标终将达成：在本世纪末前攻克、预防和控制所有疾病。

So, like you're mentioning, in 2015, we launched the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative. And what we were hoping to do at CZI was think about how do we build a better future for everyone and looking for ways where we can contribute the resources that we have to bring philanthropically and the experiences that Mark and I have had for me as a physician and educator, for Mark as an engineer, and then our ability to bring teams together to build builders. Mark has been a builder throughout his career, and what could we do if we actually put together a team to build tools, do great science? And so within our science portfolio, we've really been focused on what, some people think is either an incredibly audacious goal or a inevitable goal. But I think about it as something that will happen if we sort of continue focusing on it, which is to be able to cure, prevent, manage all disease by the end of the century.

所有疾病？

All disease?

所有疾病。这很关键，对吧？经常有人问具体指哪种疾病。重点就在于疾病不是单一的。这需要我们退后一步思考——作为医生，我始终在基础科学中发现新希望、新机遇以及保持人类健康的新认知途径。

All disease. So that's important, right? And a lot of times people ask, like, which disease? And the whole point is that there is not one disease. And it's really about taking a step back to where I always found the most hope as a physician, which is new discoveries and new opportunities and new ways of understanding how to keep people well come from basic science.

CZI的战略核心是构建工具、资助科研，改变基础科学家观察世界的方式并加速他们的发现进程。这正是我们2015年启动的三大工作方向：资助杰出科学家、开发科研工具（目前主要是软件工具）以推动科学发展，让科研工作更高效。

So our strategy at CZI is really to build tools, fund science, change the way basic scientists can see the world and how they can move quickly in their discoveries. And so that's what we launched in 2015. We do work in three ways. We fund great scientists. We build tools right now, software tools to help move science along and make it easier for scientists to do their work.

我们直接参与科研工作。正如你提到的斯坦福大学是我们科研的重要支柱，我们建立了'生物中心'这种新型研究机构，让团队能攻克单一实验室或学科无法解决的重大挑战。首个生物中心设立在旧金山，由斯坦福、加州大学伯克利分校和UCSF联合运营。

And we do science. You mentioned Stanford being an important pillar for our science work. We've built what we call biohubs, institutes where teams can take on grand challenges to do work that wouldn't be possible in a single lab or within a single discipline. And our first biohub was launched in San Francisco, a collaboration between Stanford, UC Berkeley, and UCSF.

太棒了。'治愈所有疾病'意味着将从中获取海量知识——我确信且已经看到部分早期成果，稍后可以讨论。但这同时也暗示：如果我们能理解超越自闭症、亨廷顿病、帕金森病和癌症等疾病的细胞运作机制，或许就能找到实现这一宏大使命的核心法则。简单说，你们的具体策略是什么？

Amazing. Curing all diseases implies that there will either be a ton of knowledge gleaned from this effort, which I'm certain there will be, and there already has been. We can talk about some of those early successes in a moment. But it also sort of implies that if we can understand some basic operations of diseases and cells that transcend autism, Huntington's, Parkinson's, cancer, and any other disease that perhaps there are some core principles that would make the big mission a real reality, so to speak. What I'm basically saying is, how are you attacking this?

我认为细胞是讨论所有疾病的核心，毕竟人体由各类细胞构成。能否请您阐述一下对疾病相关细胞的理解？以及如何在细胞层面研究疾病？因为归根结底，我们都是由细胞组成的。

My belief is that the cell sits at the center of all discussion about disease, given that our body is made up of cells and different types of cells. So maybe you could just illuminate for us a little bit of what the cell is in your mind as it relates to disease, and how one goes about understanding disease in the context of cells, because ultimately that's what we're made up of.

关于细胞问题稍后再谈。首先澄清：CZI并不认为我们能直接治愈、预防或控制所有疾病。我们的目标是为全球科学界提供加速科研进程的工具。筹备期间我们深入研究科学史，发现重大突破往往始于新工具或新观测方式的发明——这不仅限于生物学领域。

Yeah, well, let's get to the cell thing in a moment, but just even taking a step back from that, we don't think that at CZI that we're going to cure, prevent, or manage all diseases. The goal is to basically give the scientific community and scientists around the world the tools to accelerate the pace of science. And we spent a lot of time when we were getting started with this looking at the history of science and trying to understand the trends and how they've played out over time. And if you look over this very long term arc, most large scale discoveries are preceded by the invention of a new tool or a new way to see something. And it's not just in biology, right?

就像望远镜催生了天文学的重大发现，显微镜和疫苗技术等平台工具也推动了医学进步。这就是我们所说的'工程部分'——通过融合科学与工程知识来构建赋能整个领域的研究工具，这才是我们的宏观目标。

It's like having a telescope came before a lot of discoveries in astronomy and astrophysics. But similarly, the microscope and just different ways to observe things or different platforms, like the ability to do vaccines preceded the ability to kind of cure a lot of different things. So this is sort of the engineering part that you were talking about, about building tools. We view our goal is to try to bring together some scientific and engineering knowledge to build tools that empower the whole field. And that's sort of the big arc.

我们重点关注的单细胞研究领域（您随时可以深入探讨）也印证了这点：虽然人们常从器官层面研究疾病表现，但对单个细胞运作机制的理解仍很有限。这正是人类细胞图谱等基础性工作的重要意义——系统解析人体细胞类型及其功能。

And a lot of the things that we're focused on, including the work in single cell and cell understanding, which you can jump in and get into that if you want. But yeah, I think we generally agree with the premise that if you want to understand this stuff from first principles, people study organs a lot, right? They study kind of how things present across the body. But there's not a very widespread understanding of how each cell operates. And this is sort of a big part of some of the initial work that we tried to do on the human cell atlas and understanding what are the different cells.

我们还有大量工作要继续推进。但总体而言，我认为当我们展望未来十年这段漫长征程——致力于让科学界能够治愈、预防或管理所有疾病时，我们认为接下来的十年应该主要聚焦于提升对人类生物学的测量和观测能力。目前存在诸多限制，就像你想用显微镜观察时，通常无法看到活体组织，因为难以穿透皮肤等障碍。因此我们需要发展多种技术来帮助观测不同生物现象。

And there's a bunch more work that we want to do to carry that forward. But overall, I think when we think about the next ten years here of this long arc to try to empower the community to be able to cure, prevent, or manage all diseases, we think that the next ten years should really be primarily about being able to measure and observe more things in human biology. There are a lot of limits today. It's like you want to look at something through a microscope, you can't usually see living tissues because it's hard to see through skin or things like that. So there are a lot of different techniques that will help us observe different things.

这里就体现出工程背景的重要性。从编写代码的角度思考，如果试图调试或修复代码库却无法逐行跟踪执行，那根本行不通。在Meta开展任何重大项目初期，我们都会投入大量时间建立监测体系，明确观测指标和测量方法，这样才能确认进展方向并优化重点。鉴于这是长期探索，我们认为用未来十年为生物学构建这类工具、动态理解人体运作机制是明智之举，而细胞研究将是核心组成部分。

And this is sort of where the engineering background comes in a bit because when I think about this from the perspective of how you'd write code or something, the idea of trying to debug or fix a code base, but not be able to step through the code line by line, it's not going to happen. Right? And at the beginning of any big project that we do at Meta, we like to spend a bunch of the time upfront just trying to instrument things and understand what are we going to look at and how we're going to measure things before So we know we're making progress and know what to optimize. And this is such a long term journey that we think that it actually makes sense to take the next ten years to build those kind of tools for biology and understanding just how the human body works in action. And a big part of that is cells.

不知道你是否想接着谈谈关于...

Don't know, do you want to jump and talk Could about some of the

请允许我简短插问，关于陈·扎克伯格倡议在攻克所有疾病这项使命中能够提供的独特干预措施。作为科学家，我知道资金是必要非充分条件——有钱可以招募更多人、尝试更多方案，这很关键，但多数慈善都提供资金。另一要素正如你所说，是要具备观测能力。

I just interrupt briefly and just ask about the different interventions, so to speak, that CZI is in a unique position to bring to the quest to cure all diseases. So I can think of, I mean, I know as a scientist that money is necessary, but not sufficient, right? Like when you have money, you can hire more people, you can try different things. So that's critical, but a lot of philanthropy includes money. The other component is, you know, you want to be able to see things, as you pointed out.

我们需要了解正常与病变过程：健康细胞什么样？病变细胞什么样？细胞是否持续承受挑战并进行自我修复？而所谓癌症可能就是细胞无法应对这些挑战导致的失控状态。因此我们需要更先进的成像工具。

So you want to know the normal disease process, like what is a healthy cell? What's a diseased cell? Are cells constantly being bombarded with challenges and then repairing those? And then what we call cancer is just kind of the runaway train of those challenges not being met by the cell itself or something like that. So better imaging tools.

听起来这不仅涉及硬件，还有软件部分——这就是人工智能的用武之地。或许我们可以将其分为三个方向：一是理解疾病与健康机制（这两者可归为一类），二是硬件设备。

And then it sounds like there's not just a hardware component, but a software component. This is where AI comes in. So maybe we can, at some point we can break this up into three different avenues. One is understanding disease processes and healthy processes, we'll lump those together. Then there's hardware.

包括显微镜、透镜、数字解卷积等技术，用以获得更清晰精确的观测效果。三是数据管理。我特别欣赏AI可能实现人脑单独无法完成的工作——对数据进行系统性理解。整理数据是一回事，而像你代码类比中指出的，发现特定基因间的潜在关联则是另一回事，这种洞察人类可能永远无法独自发现。

So microscopes, lenses, digital deconvolution, ways of seeing things in bolder relief and more precision. And then there's how to manage all the data. And then I love the idea that maybe AI could do what human brains can't do alone, a managed understanding of the data. Because it's one thing to organize data. It's another to say, oh, you know, you know, this as you point out in the analogy with code, that this particular gene and that particular gene are potentially interesting, whereas a human being would never make that potential connection.

那么，

So,

你知道，CZI能带来的工具，我们资助科学研究，就像你说的。资助科学有很多方式。需要说明的是，我们资助的金额只是NIH资金中极小的一部分。

you know, the tools that CZI can bring to the table, we fund science, like you're talking about. And we try to there's lots of ways to fund science. And just to be clear, what we fund is a tiny fraction of what the NIH funds, for instance.

你们的资助非常慷慨，确实对NIH的贡献起到了重要作用。

We You guys have been generous enough that it definitely holds weight to NIH's contribution.

是的。但我认为每个资助方在生态系统中都有自己的角色。对我们而言，关键在于如何激励新观点？如何促进合作？如何推动开放科学？

Yeah. But I think every funder has its own role in the ecosystem. And for us, it's really how do we incentivize new points of view? How do we incentivize collaboration? How do we incentivize open science?

因此我们的许多资助项目都鼓励跨领域研究。首个神经科学资助计划就是吸引免疫学家、微生物学家等不同背景的学者来研究神经系统运作机制和健康维护。我们还要求受资助者参与预印本运动，加速知识共享和科研成果的迭代发展。这就是我们的资助方向。至于建设方面，正如你提到的，我们开发软件和硬件。

And so a lot of our grants include inviting people to look at different fields. Our first neuroscience RFA was aimed towards incentivizing people from different backgrounds, immunologists, microbiologists to come and look at how our nervous system works and how to keep it healthy. Or we ask that our grantees participate in the preprint movement to accelerate the rate of sharing knowledge and actually others being able to build upon science. So that's the funding that we do. In terms of building, we build software and hardware, like you mentioned.

我们组建团队开发的工具比单个实验室更有持久性和扩展性。如今科学家可以自制实用工具，但很难将其推广到其他实验室或全球范围。因此我们与科学家合作，甄别哪些工具真正有用。

We put together teams that can build tools that are more durable and scalable than someone in a single lab might be incentivized to do. There's a ton of great ideas. And nowadays, scientists can tinker and build something useful for their lab. But it's really hard for them to be able to share that tool sometimes beyond their own laptop or forget the next lab over or across the globe. So we partner with scientists to see what is useful, what kinds of tools.

比如成像领域的Nepari图像标注工具源自开源社区，我们如何助力？还有处理单细胞数据的CellByGene，我们如何构建工具帮助科学家共享数据集、自主分析并丰富整体数据库。我们的软件团队与科学家协作，确保开发的工具在使用便捷性、持久性和跨学科适用性方面满足科研需求。此外我们还设有专门的研究机构。

In imaging, Nepari, it's a useful image annotation tool that is born from an open source community. How can we contribute to that? Or CellByGene, which works on single cell data sets and how can we make it build a useful tool so that scientists can share data sets, analyze their own, and contribute to a larger corpus of information. So we have software teams that are building, collaborating with scientists to make sure that we're building easy to use, durable, translatable tools across the scientific community in the areas that we work in. We also have institutes.

这正是成像技术发挥作用的地方，我们目前自豪地拥有一台电子显微镜。它将安装在我们成像研究所，这将真正改变我们观察工作的方式。但还需要开发更多硬件设备。我们正与Biohub网络中的杰出科学家合作，建造微型相位板，通过电子显微镜校准电子束以提高分辨率，让我们能更清晰地观察细节。因此在这个网络中正在进行大量创新工作。

This is where the imaging work comes in, where we are proud owners of an electron microscope right now. It's going to be installed at our imaging institute, and that will really contribute to a way where we can see work differently. But more hardware does need to be developed. We're partnering with fantastic scientists in the Biohub network to build a mini phase plate to increase, to align the electrons through the electron microscope to be able to increase the resolution so we can see in sharper detail. So there's a lot of innovative work within the network that's happening.

这些研究所都在攻克重大挑战。回到你关于细胞的问题，细胞只是生命的最小单位。我们体内都有无数细胞，据估计约有7万亿个不同的细胞。它们都在做什么？

And these institutes have grand challenges that they're working on. Back to your question about cells, cells are just the smallest unit that are alive. And all of our bodies have many, many, many cells. There's some estimate of, like, 7,000,000,000,000 cells, different cells in your body. And what are they all doing?

当你健康时它们是什么样子？生病时又是什么样子？目前我们对细胞的理解是：通过人类基因组计划，我们已经相当擅长研究基因编码中的突变如何使你更容易患病或直接导致疾病。比如从DNA突变到亨廷顿舞蹈症的发生，中间存在大量未知过程。

And what do they look like when they're healthy when you're healthy? What do they look like when you're sick? And where we're at right now with our understanding of cells and what happens when you get sick is basically we've gotten pretty good at, from the Human Genome Project, looking at how different mutations in your genetic code lead for you to be more susceptible to get sick or directly cause you to get sick. So we go from a mutation in your DNA to, wow, you now have Huntington's disease, for instance. And there's a lot that happens in the middle.

这正是CZI正在探索的核心问题之一：实际发生了什么？我喜欢用一个类比向朋友解释：假设现在有个蛋糕配方，我们知道配方里有错字，然后蛋糕做坏了——这就是

And that's one of the questions that we're going after at CZI is what actually happens? So an analogy that I like to use to share with my friends is right now, say we have a recipe for a cake. We know there's a typo in the recipe. And then the cake is awful. That's

全部

all

我们已知的信息。我们不知道厨师如何理解那个错字，不知道烤箱里发生了什么，也不清楚这究竟如何导致蛋糕与预期不符。虽然很多环节仍是未知，但我们可以系统地尝试分解这个过程。

we know. We don't know how the chef interprets the typo. We don't know what happens in the oven. And we don't actually know sort of how it's exactly connected to how the cake didn't turn out, how you had expected. A lot of that is unknown, but we can actually systematically try to break this down.

我们研究的其中一个环节是：突变如何在你的细胞中被翻译和执行。所有细胞都含有mRNA，这些是从DNA获取的实际指令。我们的单细胞研究工作，就是要观察体内每个细胞如何以略微不同的方式解读DNA指令，以及健康细胞和病变细胞在解读这些指令时会发生什么变化。

And one segment of that journey that we're looking at is how that mutation gets translated and acted upon in your cells. And all of your cells have what's called mRNA. MRNA are the actual instructions that are taken from the DNA. And what our work in single cell is, looking at how every cell in your body is actually interpreting your DNA slightly differently. And what happens when healthy cells are interpreting the DNA instructions and when sick cells are interpreting those directions?

这简直是海量数据。我刚告诉你有37万亿个细胞。每个细胞中都有大量不同的mRNA。但我们资助的研究首先关注如何收集这些信息。我们非常幸运能参与这个快速发展的领域——从2017年资助方法学研究，到现在已基本（虽未完全）绘制出人体、果蝇和小鼠在单细胞层面的运作图谱，并试图拼凑出健康与患病状态下这些系统如何协同工作。

And that is a ton of data. I just told you there's 37,000,000,000,000 cells. There's different large sets of mRNA in each cell. But the work that we've been funding is looking at how, first of all, gathering that information. We've been incredibly lucky to be part of a very fast moving field where we've gone from in 2017 funding some methods work to now having really not complete, but nearly complete atlases of how the human body works, how flies work, how mice work at the single cell level, and being able to then try to piece together, like, how does that all come together when you're healthy and when you're sick?

当前AI发展处于转折点的妙处在于：我无法直接理解这些数据——数据量太大，而生物学又太复杂。人体是复杂的，我们确实需要如此庞大的信息量。

And the neat thing about the sort of inflection point where we're at in AI is that I can't look at this data and make sense of it. There's just too much of it. And biology is complex. Human bodies are complex. We need this much information.

但大型语言模型能帮助我们分析数据、获取洞见，识别哪些趋势与健康相关，哪些出人意料。最终，我们希望通过运用这些精心整理的数据集和大型语言模型，构建出虚拟细胞——完全基于人体已知数据构建，但能让我们更快地进行操作学习、尝试新方法，从而推动科学和医学进步。

But the use of large language models can help us actually look at that data and gain insights, look at what trends are consistent with health and what trends are unsuspected. And eventually, our hope, through the use of these data sets that we've helped curate in the application of large language models, is to be able to formulate a virtual cell, a cell that's completely built off of the data sets of what we know about the human body but allows us to manipulate and learn faster and try new things to help move science and then medicine along.

你认为我们已经对所有细胞类型完成分类了吗？每周我阅读《细胞》《自然》《科学》等顶级期刊时，比如最近就看到通过单细胞测序技术，科学家已鉴定出18种以上脂肪细胞。我们通常只区分脂肪细胞和肌肉细胞，现在却有18种类型，每种都会表达大量不同的基因、RNA和mRNA。

Do you think we've cataloged the total number of different cell types? Know, every week I look at great journals like Cell, Nature and Science, and for instance, I saw recently that using single cell sequencing, they've categorized 18 plus different types of fat cells. We always think of like a fat cell versus a muscle cell. So now you've got 18 types. Each one is going to express many, many different genes and RNAs, mRNAs.

或许其中某种细胞类型与晚期二型糖尿病、其他肥胖形式相关，或是导致某些人无法储存脂肪细胞——在极端案例中这同样有害。现在你掌握了所有这些基因列表，但我始终认为单细胞测序必要却不充分：它提供信息却未解决问题，更像是生成假说的实验。

And perhaps the, one of them is responsible for, you know, what we see in the, you know, advanced type two diabetes, or in other forms of obesity, or where people can't lay down fat cells, which turns out to be just as detrimental in those extreme cases. So now you've got all these lists of genes, but I always thought of single cell sequencing as necessary but not sufficient. Right? You need the information, but it doesn't resolve the problem. And I think of it more of as a hypothesis generating experiment.

比如：你发现某个基因在糖尿病患者某种脂肪细胞（或肌肉细胞）中显著高表达，而健康人群没有。于是在数百万细胞中，可能只有五种存在显著差异。由此产生假说：差异显著的基因才重要——但也许某个仅改变50%的基因，由于网络生物学效应会产生巨大影响。

Like, you okay. So you have all these genes, and you could say, wow. This gene is particularly elevated in the, diabetics cell type of, let's say, one of these fat cells or muscle cells for that matter, whereas it's not in nondiabetics. So then of the millions of different cells, maybe only five of them differ dramatically. So then you generate a hypothesis, oh, it's the ones that differ dramatically that are important, but maybe one of those genes, when it's only, you know, 50% changed, has a huge effect because of some network biology effect.

所以我想探讨的是：如何应对这个挑战？AI能否通过将基因列表转化为上万条假说来解决？要知道，我实验室的研究生和博士后每次只能验证一个假说——这才是真正的挑战，更别说单个实验室了。对听众而言（希望没超出理解范畴），核心问题是：数据越多越好，但最终如何抉择验证方向？

And so I guess what I'm trying to get to here is, you know, how does one meet that challenge, and can AI help resolve that challenge by essentially placing those lists of genes into 10,000 hypotheses? Because I'll tell you that the graduate students and postdocs in my lab get a chance to test one hypothesis at And a that's really the challenge, let alone one lab. And so for those that are listening to this, and hopefully it's not getting outside the scope of kind of like standard understanding or the understanding we've generated here, but what basically saying is you have to pick at some point. More data always sounds great, but then how do you decide what to test?

不，我们并不了解所有的细胞类型。我认为这项研究最初启动时最令人兴奋的是关于囊性纤维化的发现。囊性纤维化是由众所周知的CFTR基因突变引起的，它影响了特定通道功能，导致黏液难以清除。这就是囊性纤维化的基本原理。

So no, we don't know all the cell types. I think one thing that was really exciting when we first launched this work was cystic fibrosis. Cystic fibrosis is caused by a mutation in CFTR that's pretty well known. It affects a certain channel that makes it hard for mucus to be cleared. That's the basics of cystic fibrosis.

我上医学院时，这些是被当作既定事实教授的。

When I went to medical school, it was taught as fact.

所以他们的肺部会充满积液。这些人随身携带着不断充盈的液囊。我曾与这样的患者共事，他们不得不定期将积液排出体外。

So their lungs fill up with fluid. These are people carrying around sacks of fluid filling up. I've worked with people like then they have to literally dump the fluid out.

正是如此。

Exactly.

他们无法跑步或进行剧烈运动。寿命也更短。

They can't run or do intense exercise. Life is shorter.

寿命确实更短。当我们对肺部应用单细胞测序技术时，发现了一种全新的细胞类型——这种细胞实际上会受到囊性纤维化CF基因突变的影响，这彻底改变了我们对囊性纤维化的认知范式。

Life is shorter. And when we applied single cell methodologies to the lungs, they discovered an entirely new cell type that actually is affected by a mutation in the CF mutation, in cystic fibrosis mutation, that actually changes the paradigm of how we think about cystic fibrosis.

太不可思议了。

Amazing.

仅仅是未知。所以我认为我们尚未了解所有细胞类型。我们将持续发现新类型，并不断揭示细胞与疾病之间的新关联。这让我想到第二个例子：整个科学界围绕单细胞构建的大型数据集，正开始让我们能够追问——这个突变在哪里表达？它在哪些细胞类型中显现？

Just unknown. So I don't think we know all the cell types. I think we'll continue to discover them and we'll continue to discover new relationships between cell and disease. Which leads me to the second example I want to bring up is this large data set that the entire scientific community has built around single cell is starting to allow us to say, This mutation, where is it expressed? What types of cell types it's expressed in?

实际上我们在CZI开发了一个名为CellByGene的工具。输入你感兴趣的突变，它就会生成跨细胞类型的热力图，显示哪些细胞正在表达目标基因。这样你就能观察到：比如已知基因X与心脏病相关，但热力图显示它在胰腺也有高表达，这就能催生新的假设——为什么？

And we actually have built a tool at CZI called CellByGene, where you can put in the mutation that you're interested in. And it gives you a heat map of cross cell types of which cell types are expressing the gene that you're interested in. And so then you can start looking at, Okay, if I look at gene X and I know it's related to heart disease, but if you look at the heat map, it's also spiking in the pancreas. That allows you to generate a hypothesis. Why?

当这个基因在胰腺功能中发生突变时会发生什么？这种视角转换非常激动人心。试想开发心脏靶向药物时，发现该药物在胰腺也高度活跃，是否意味着临床试验阶段需要考虑意外副作用？这个工具会随着数据分析方法的日益精进而变得更加强大。

And what happens when this gene is mutated in the function of your pancreas? Really exciting way to look and ask questions differently. And you can also imagine a world where if you're trying to develop a therapy, a drug, and the goal is to treat the function of the heart, but you know that it's also really active in the pancreas again. Is there going to be an unexpected side effect that you should think about as you're bringing this drug to clinical trials? So it's an incredibly exciting tool and one that's only going to get better as we get more and more sophisticated ways to analyze the data.

我必须说我非常欣赏这一点。回顾神经科学过去十五年的进展，多数突破并非来自神经系统本身，而是源于对免疫系统影响大脑的认知。此前人们总认为大脑是免疫豁免器官。你刚才的论述也弥合了单细胞、器官与系统间的鸿沟——毕竟细胞构成器官，器官组成系统，它们始终相互沟通。现在人人都知道肠脑轴或微生物组的重要性，但器官间的对话却鲜少被讨论。这实在太棒了。

I must say I love that because if I look at the advances in neuroscience over the last fifteen years, most of them didn't necessarily come from looking at the nervous system, came from the understanding that the immune system impacts the brain. Everyone prior to that talked about the brain as an immune privileged organ. What you just said also bridges the divide between single cells, organs, and systems, right? Because ultimately cells make up organs, organs make up systems, and they're all talking to one another, and everyone nowadays is familiar with like gut brain access or the microbiome being so important, but rarely is the discussion between organs discussed, so to speak. So I think it's wonderful.

所以这个工具是CZI开发的，或者说CZI资助了这个工具？那么这是怎么...

So that tool was generated by CZI, or CZI funded that tool. So how does this Yeah.

是我们开发的。

We built that.

是我们构建的。

We built it.

是你构建的。那么这是Meta构建的吗？不，这只是CZI

You built it. So is it built by Meta? Is this Meta No, is just CZI

拥有自己的工程师团队。

has its own engineers.

明白了。

Got it.

是的。它们完全是不同的组织。

Yeah. They're completely different organizations.

太不可思议了。所以一个对特定突变感兴趣的研究生或博士后，可以将这个突变放入这个数据库。那位研究生或博士后可能来自以心脏研究闻名的实验室，却突然发现他们正在与从事胰腺研究的其他科学家合作。没错。这也很棒，因为它弥合了这些领域之间的鸿沟。

Incredible. And so a graduate student or postdoc who's interested in a particular mutation could put this mutation into this database. That graduate student or postdoc might be in a laboratory known for working on heart, but suddenly find that they're collaborating with other scientists that work on the pancreas. Yep. Which also is wonderful because it bridges the divide between these fields.

科学界的领域划分太封闭了。不仅是不同的建筑，人们之间也很少交流，除非发生这样的事情。

Fields are so siloed in science. Not just different buildings, but they people rarely talk unless things like this are happening.

我是说，研究生是我们想要赋能的群体，因为首先，如你所知，他们是科学的未来。在Cell by Gene中，如果你输入感兴趣的基因并显示热图，我们还会调出与该基因最相关的论文。所以读读这些东西吧。

I mean, graduate student is someone that we want to empower because, one, they're the future of science, as you know. And within cell by gene, if you put in the gene you're interested in and it shows you the heat map, we also will pull up like the most relevant papers to that gene. And so like read these things.

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Fantastic. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens. Athletic Greens, now called AG1, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health.

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回到你之前的问题，我认为未来肯定还会发现更多细胞类型对吧？现有的分类从未完整过，我们总在不断有新发现。但这也体现了现代大语言模型的优势——能够推想事物可能存在的各种状态。

I just think going back to your question from before, I mean, are there going be more cell types that get discovered? I mean, I assume so, right? I mean, no catalog of the stuff has ever, you know, it doesn't seem like we're ever done, right? We keep on finding more. But I think that gets to one of the things that I think are the strengths of modern LLMs, is the ability to kind of imagine different states that things can be in.

通过我们在人类细胞图谱项目中的工作和资助，现已积累了大量可用于训练大规模模型的数据。我们在CCI正在建设可能是非营利领域最大规模的生命科学AI计算集群，约配备千块GPU，远超多数学术机构可用的算力规模。通过整合人类细胞图谱等数据训练模型，我们有望推演出所有细胞类型及其可能状态，包括健康/病变状态下的细胞行为及药物相互作用。

So from all the work that we've done and funded on the Human Cell Atlas, there is a large corpus of data that you can now train a kind of large scale model on. And one of the things that we're doing at CCI, which I think is pretty exciting, is building what we think is one of the largest nonprofit life sciences AI clusters, right? It's like on the order of a thousand GPUs. And it's larger than what most people have access to in academia that you can do like serious engineering work on. And by basically training a model with all of the human cell Atlas data and a bunch of other inputs as well, we think you'll be able to basically imagine all of the different types of cells and all the different states that they can be in, and when they're healthy and diseased and how they'll interact with each other, interact with different potential drugs.

但必须清醒认识到当前大语言模型的局限性——它们会产生幻觉信息。关键在于如何化弊为利。当模型帮助科学家设想蛋白质折叠方案或细胞交互状态等可能性后，需要研究者进行实证验证。

But I mean, I think the state of LLMs, I think this is where it's helpful to understand, have a good understanding, and be grounded in the modern state of AI. I mean, things are not foolproof, right? I mean, one of the flaws of modern LLMs is they hallucinate, right? So the question is how do you make it so that that can be an advantage rather than a disadvantage? And I think the way that it ends up being an advantage is when they help you imagine a bunch of states that someone could be in, but then you, as the scientist or engineer, go and validate that those are true, whether they're solutions to how a protein can be folded or possible states that a cell could be in when it's interacting with other things.

现阶段AI输出还不能直接当作真理，但正如你所说，它们是非常优秀的假设生成器。基于人类细胞图谱前五年的研究成果，我们正将其发展为极具创新性的科研工具。虽然CZI资金规模远不如NIH，但我们的独特价值在于...

But we're not yet at the state with AI that you can just take the outputs of these things as gospel and run from there. But they are very good, I think as you said, hypothesis generators or possible solution generators that then you can go validate. So I think that that's a very powerful thing that we can basically, building on the first five years of science work around the Human Cell Atlas and all the data that's been built out, carry that forward into something that I think is going to be a very novel tool going forward. And that's the type of thing that I think we're set up to do well. Mean, you had this exchange a little while back about funding levels and how CZI is just sort of a drop in the bucket compared to NIH.

我们能推动那些需要长期投入的大型项目。多数科研资助都针对短期小项目，而我们致力于构建需要5-15年周期、数亿美元投入、顶尖工程团队和基础设施支撑的工具平台。

But I think we have this The thing that I think we can do that's different is funding some of these longer term, bigger projects. That it is hard to galvanize and pull together the energy to do that. And a lot of what most science funding is, is relatively small projects that are exploring things over relatively short time horizons. And one of the things that we try to do is build these tools over five, ten, fifteen year periods. They're often projects that require hundreds of millions of dollars of funding and world class engineering teams and infrastructure to do.

我认为这是对该领域相当酷的贡献，目前做这类工作的人并不多。但这也是我个人对虚拟细胞研究感到兴奋的原因之一，因为它完美融合了我们在单细胞领域的所有成果、之前与学界合作的积累，以及汇聚了行业与AI的专业知识。

And that I think is a pretty cool contribution to the field that I think is, there aren't as many other folks who are doing that kind of thing. But that's one of the reasons why I'm personally excited about the virtual cell stuff, because it's like this perfect intersection of all the stuff that we've done in single cell, the previous collaborations that we've done with the field, and, you know, bringing together the industry and AI expertise around this.

是的。我完全同意，你们与CZI共同构建的科研模式不仅区别于NIH，而且极其重要。独立研究者模式推动了过去百年来美国乃至北欧科学的进步。一方面这很棒，因为它符合我们心目中科学家埋头钻研或实验室灵光一现的形象，这些最终有望改善人类健康。

Yeah. I completely agree that the model of science that you're put together with CZI isn't just unique from NIH, but it's extremely important. The independent investigator model is what's driven the progression of science in this country, and to some extent in Northern Europe for the last hundred years. And it's wonderful on the one hand, because it allows for that image we have of a scientist kind of tinkering away or the people in their lab and then like the eurekas. And that hopefully translates to better human health.

但在我看来，我们已经超越了这个模式的有效性边界，它不应再是唯一被探索的范式。

But I think in my opinion, we've moved past that model as the most effective model or the only model that should be explored.

没错。我认为关键在于平衡。既要保留这种模式，又要赋能这些研究者——这些工具正是赋能的手段

Yeah. I just think it's a balance. You want that, but you wanna empower those people. Think that these tools empower

当然，NIH等机制确实支持这类研究，但协作科学实施起来很困难。有趣的是我们此刻所处位置——我也在这附近长大——离科技界的车库模式发源地很近，对吧？惠普模式就诞生在附近。人们总记得车库里的发明家，却常忘记实现这些技术需要庞大的工厂和仓储系统。

Sure, those and there are mechanisms to do that like NIH, but it's hard to do collaborative sciences. It's sort of interesting that we're sitting here not far because I grew up right near here as well, not far from the garage model of tech, right? Hewlett Packard model, not far from here at all. And the idea was, you know, the tinkerer in the garage, the inventor. And then people often forget that to implement all the technologies they discovered took enormous factories and warehouses.

这与Facebook、Meta等公司的发展轨迹类似。但科学界总强调实验室里的孤独科学家和顿悟时刻。如今重大课题确实需要广泛协作，尤其是工具开发。你们反复提到的工具之一就是这些LLM（大语言模型）。能否为不熟悉的听众解释下，什么是大语言模型？

So there's a similarity there to Facebook, Meta, etcetera. But I think in science, imagine that the scientists alone in their laboratory and those eureka moments. But I think nowadays that the big questions really require extensive collaboration and certainly tool development. And one of the tools that you keep coming back to is these LLMs, these large language models. And maybe you could just elaborate for for those that aren't familiar, you know, what are what is a large language model for the the the uninformed?

它究竟是什么？相比其他类型AI，它能实现哪些独特功能？或许更关键的是，面对特定科学领域中一群盯着数据的聪明专家，大语言模型能做到哪些人力所不及的事？

What what is it? And what does it allow what does it allow us to do that, you know, different types of other types of AI don't allow? Or more importantly perhaps, what does it allow us to do that a bunch of really smart people, highly informed in a given area of science, staring at the data, what can it do that they can't do?

当然。我认为机器学习的进步很大程度上在于构建系统，无论是神经网络还是其他形式，这些系统能够理解并发现越来越庞大数据的模式。几年前谷歌的一些人取得了一项突破，他们提出了这种称为Transformer的模型架构。这是一个巨大的突破，因为在此之前存在一个上限——当你向神经网络输入超过某个点的数据量时，它实际上无法从中获取更多洞察。而Transformer架构...我们至今仍未看到它的规模上限在哪里。

Sure. So I think a lot of the progression of machine learning has been about building systems, neural networks or otherwise, that can basically make sense and find patterns in larger and larger amounts of data. And there was a breakthrough a number of years back that some folks at Google actually made called this transformer model architecture. And it was this huge breakthrough because before then there was somewhat of a cap where if you fed more data into a neural network past some point, it didn't really glean more insights from it. Whereas transformers just We haven't seen the end of how big that can scale to yet.

虽然存在我们可能遇到某种天花板的可能性，但...

Think that there's a chance that we run into some ceiling, but it's So

永远不会接近极限吗？我们还没有观察到

never asymptotes? We haven't observed

这种状况，只是我们尚未构建足够庞大的系统。所以我猜测...其实这是当今AI领域的重要问题之一：Transformer和当前模型架构是否足够？如果只是不断扩展计算集群规模，最终能否得到类似人类智能或超级智能的东西？还是说这种架构存在某种我们尚未触及的根本性限制？

it yet, but we just haven't built big enough systems yet. So I would guess that I don't know. I think this is actually one of the big questions in the AI field today is basically, are transformers and are the current model architectures sufficient? And if you just build larger and larger clusters, do you eventually get something that's like human intelligence or super intelligence? Or is there some kind of fundamental limit to this architecture that we just haven't reached yet?

当我们在这方面走得更远一些后，就会触及那个边界，然后还需要几次飞跃才能达到我认为能开启大量未来主义奇迹的AI水平。但毫无疑问，仅凭当前模型架构能处理的数据量，就已经解锁了许多新应用场景。它们之所以被称为大语言模型，是因为最初的应用就是人们将几乎整个互联网的语言数据输入其中。你可以把它们看作预测机器——输入提示词后，它就能预测接下来可能出现的版本。

And once we kind of get a little bit further in building them out, then we'll reach that and then we'll need a few more leaps before we get to the level of AI that I think will unlock a ton of really futuristic and amazing things. But there's no doubt that even just being able to process the amount of data that we can now with this model architecture has unlocked a lot of new use cases. And the reason why they're called large language models is because one of the first uses of them is people basically feed in all of the language from basically the World Wide Web. And you can think about them as basically prediction machines. So if you fit in and you put in a prompt and it can basically predict a version of what should come next.

比如你输入一个新闻标题，它能预测出它认为的报道内容。或者你可以把它训练成聊天机器人——当收到某个问题时给出相应回答。但有趣的是，这种架构并不局限于人类语言。如果用人类细胞图谱数据替代语言数据来训练这个网络架构，那么当你输入某个细胞状态时，它就能输出这个细胞可能如何相互作用，或在与不同物质互动后可能进入的下一个状态。

So, you know, you type in a headline for a news story, and it can kinda predict what it thinks the story should be. Or you could train it so that it could be a chatbot, right, where, okay, if you're prompted with this question, you can get this response. But one of the interesting things is it turns out that there's actually nothing specific to using human language in it. So if instead of feeding it human language, if you use that model architecture for a network and instead you feed it all of the human Cell Atlas data, then if you prompt it with a state of a cell, it can spit out different versions of like what, you know, how that cell can interact or different states that the cell could be in next when it interacts with different things.

它需要先上遗传学课吗？比如给它一堆遗传学数据时，是否需要先说明：‘顺便说一下，这是DNA、RNA、mRNA和蛋白质’？

Does it have to take a genetics class? So for instance, if you give it a bunch of genetics data, do you have to say, Hey, by the way, and then you give it a genetics class so it understands that you got DNA, RNA, mRNA, and proteins.

不，我认为所有这些机器学习技术的基本性质在于它们本质上是模式识别系统。它们就像非常深层的统计机器，非常擅长发现模式。所以实际上，你不需要教一个试图学习语言的语言模型太多关于该语言的具体知识。你只需要输入大量例子。比如你教它英语中的某些内容，同时也给它大量人们说意大利语的例子。

No, I think that the basic nature of all these machine learning techniques is they're basically pattern recognition systems. So they're these like very deep statistical machines that are very efficient at finding patterns. So it's not actually You don't need to teach a language model that's trying to speak a language a lot of specific things about that language either. You just feed it in a bunch of examples. And then let's say you teach it about something in English, but then you also give it a bunch of examples of people speaking Italian.

它实际上能够用英语和意大利语解释所学到的东西，对吧？这种交叉和纯粹的模式识别正是其深刻和强大之处。但它确实适用于许多不同领域。科学界的另一个例子是AlphaFold的工作，也就是DeepMind团队在蛋白质折叠方面的成果。基本上采用了相同的模型架构，只不过不是语言数据，而是输入了大量蛋白质数据，你可以给它一个状态，它就能输出这些蛋白质如何折叠的解决方案。

It'll actually be able to explain the thing that it learned in English and Italian, right? So the crossover and just the pattern recognition is the thing that is pretty profound and powerful about this. But it really does apply to a lot of different things. Another example in the scientific community has been the work that AlphaFold, that basically the folks at DeepMind have done on protein folding. It's just basically a lot of the same model architecture, but instead of language there, they kind of fed in all of these protein data and you can give it a state and it can spit out solutions to how those proteins get folded.

所以它非常强大。我认为作为行业，我们还不清楚它的自然极限在哪里。这正是当前阶段令人兴奋的一点。但它确实能让你解决之前那代机器学习技术无法解决的问题。

So it's very powerful. I don't think we know yet as an industry what the natural limits of it are. And that that's one of the things that's pretty exciting about the current state. But it certainly allows you to solve problems that just weren't solved with the generation of machine learning that came before it.

听起来CZI正在将大量原本在体外培养皿和体内活体（模式生物或人类）中进行的工作转移到计算机模拟中。那么你是否预见到未来很多生物医学研究（当然包括CCI的工作）将由机器完成？显然成本低得多，可以运行数百万次实验——当然这并不意味着人类不参与其中。但我很喜欢我们能大规模进行计算机模拟实验的想法。

Sounds like CZI is moving a lot of work that was just done in vitro in dishes and in vivo in living organisms, model organisms or humans, to in silico, as we say. So do you foresee a future where a lot of biomedical research, certainly the work of CCI included, is done by machines? I mean, obviously it's much lower cost, and you can run millions of experiments, which, of course, is not to say that humans are not going to be involved. But I love the idea that we can run experiments in silico en mass.

我认为计算机模拟实验对快速、低成本测试事物以及释放创造力将非常有帮助。但我认为必须非常谨慎，确保其结果仍适用于人类。基础科学中有个有趣的现象：我们基本上已经治愈了小鼠的所有疾病。因为小鼠作为模式生物，我们对它们患多种疾病时的情况了如指掌，但它们毕竟不是人类。很多时候这些研究相关但并不能直接一对一转化到人类身上。

I think the in silico experiments are gonna be incredibly helpful to test things quickly, to cheaply, and to just unleash a lot of creativity. I do think you need to be very careful about making sure it still translates and matches humans. One thing that's funny in basic science is we've basically cured every single disease in mice. Like, mice have we we know what's going on when they have a number of diseases because they're they're used as a model organism, but they are not humans. And a lot of times, that research is relevant but not directly one to one translatable to humans.

所以你必须非常小心，确保这些成果对人类确实有效。

So you just have to be really careful about making sure that it actually works for humans.

听起来CZI实际上正在开创一个新领域。听你这么说，我在想：这超越了免疫学系、心胸外科甚至神经科学的范畴。这个新领域既拥抱大学和实验室的现实（因为你们资助的大部分工作都在那里进行），是这样吗？好吧，也许我们需要重新思考以不同方式做科学意味着什么。

Sounds like what CZI is doing is actually creating a new field. Like, as I'm hearing all of this, I'm thinking, okay, this transcends immunology department, you know, cardiothoracic surgery, I mean, neuroscience. I mean, the idea of a new field where you certainly embrace the realities of universities and laboratories, because that's where most of the work that you're funding is done, is that right? Okay. So maybe we need to think about what it means to do science differently.

我认为这正是最令人兴奋的一点。沿着这个思路，将许多不同类型的人才和重要机构汇聚一堂显得尤为重要。因此，我很感激最初成立的CCI生物中心包含了斯坦福大学——我们会把它列在首位——当然还有加州大学旧金山分校。

And I think that's one of the things that's most exciting. Along those lines, it seems that bringing together a lot of different types of people, different major institutions, this is going to be especially important. So I know that the initial CCI Biohub, gratefully, included Stanford. We'll put that first in the list. But also UCSF.

是的。请原谅我的补充——我在UCSF有许多朋友——但现在还有更多机构参与其中。或许你可以谈谈这个决定背后的考量：为何要拓展到湾区之外？以及为何选择这些特定机构加入？

Yeah. Forgive me. Have many friends at UCSF and But also there are now some additional institutions involved. So maybe you could talk about that and what motivated the decision to branch outside the Bay Area and why you selected those particular additional institutions to be included.

我想说，我们决定创建更多生物中心的重要原因之一，就是被首个生物中心团队的工作成果深深震撼。你应该详细了解一下我们刚宣布成立的芝加哥和纽约生物中心的工作方向。实际上，这些案例巧妙地平衡了物理材料工程与纯生物学研究的边界——芝加哥团队正致力于开发更多传感器来监测人体内部活动，这更像是一个物理工程挑战。

Well, I mean, I'll just say, a big part of why we wanted to create additional Biohub is we were just so impressed by the work that the folks who are running the first Biohub did. And I also think and you should walk through the work of the Chicago Biohub and the New York Biohub that we just announced. But I think it's actually an interesting set of examples that balance the limits of what you want to do with like physical material engineering where things are purely biological. Because the Chicago team is really building more sensors to be able to understand what's going on in your body. But that's more of like a physical kind of engineering challenge.

而纽约团队的项目，我们称之为'细胞内窥镜'——通过免疫细胞等载体进入人体内部进行监测。这不是物理硬件，而是能实时反馈体内状况的活体细胞。

Whereas the New York team, we basically talk about this as like a cellular endoscope of being able to have an immune cell or something that can go and understand what's the thing that's going on in your body. But it's not like a physical piece of hardware, it's a cell that you can basically have just go report out on different things that are happening inside the body.

哦，所以是把细胞变成显微镜。

Oh, so making the cell the microscope.

完全正确。最终还能实现干预功能。这些细节你应该展开讲讲。

Totally. And then eventually actually being able to act on it. You should go into more detail on all this.

我们设立生物中心的核心原则是：每个提案必须至少包含三个合作机构。这打破了单一大学的壁垒，通常要求研究目标的设计者来自多元背景，并阐明为何需要跨学科、跨机构的协作才能解决问题。我们以旧金山生物中心为例发布提案邀请——他们在单细胞生物学和传染病领域成就斐然——最终收到了来自150多所机构的57份提案，汇集了大量创新构想。

So a core principle of how we think about Biohubs is that it has to be, when we invited proposals, it has to be at least three institutions. So really breaking down the barrier of a single university, oftentimes asking for the people designing the research aim to come from all different backgrounds and to explain why that the problem that they want to solve requires interdisciplinary, inter university institution collaboration to actually make happen. We just put that request for proposal out there with our San Francisco Biohub as an example, where they've done incredible work in single cell biology and infectious disease. And we got, I want to say, like 57 proposals from over 150 institutions. A lot of ideas came together.

我们非常非常激动能够启动芝加哥和纽约的项目。芝加哥是UIUC（伊利诺伊大学厄巴纳-香槟分校）、伊利诺伊大学、竞技场香槟分校、芝加哥大学和西北大学的合作项目。显然，这些大学都是多学科发展的，但如果要概括它们的典型优势——西北大学拥有顶尖的医疗系统和医院体系，芝加哥大学在基础科学领域实力超群，而伊利诺伊大学则是计算领域的强者。

And we are so, so excited that we've been able to launch Chicago and New York. Chicago is a collaboration between UIUC, University of Illinois, Arena Champaign, and University of Chicago and Northwestern. And if I obviously, these universities are multifaceted, but if I were to sort of describe them by their stereotypical strength, Northwestern has an incredible medical system and hospital system. University of Chicago brings to the table incredible basic science strengths. University of Illinois is a computing powerhouse.

于是这些机构联合提议开始研究细胞与组织。这正是你刚才提到的层级之一：当我们熟知的细胞聚集成组织时，其行为会如何变化？他们首先研究的组织是皮肤，在莎娜·凯利的领导下，这个合作团队已经成功设计出了工程皮肤组织。

And so they came together and proposed that they were going to start thinking about cells and tissue. So that's one of the layers that you just alluded to. So how do the cells that we know behave and act differently when they come together as a tissue? One of the first tissues that they're starting with is skin. So they've already been able to, as a collaboration under the leadership of Shana Kelly, design engineered skin tissue.

其构造与你我体内的皮肤完全相同。他们研发了超薄传感器，将这些传感器嵌入工程组织的各层中并读取数据，旨在观测细胞的分泌活动、细胞间的通讯机制以及炎症反应过程。炎症是导致50%死亡病例的关键机制，因此这种与疾病类型无关的研究方法，正是为了深入理解炎症。

The architecture looks the same as what's in you and I. And what they've done is built these super, super thin sensors and they embed these sensors throughout the layers of this engineered tissue and they read out the data. They want to see what these cells are secreting, how these cells talk to each other, and what happens when these cells get inflamed. Inflammation is an incredibly important process that drives fifty percent of all deaths. And so this is another sort of disease agnostic approach, we want to understand inflammation.

这些传感器将提供海量数据，揭示机体异常时的微观变化。比如现在我们知道过敏反应会导致皮肤红肿，但最早的信号是什么？传感器能持续监测细胞行为变化，再通过大语言模型识别出具有统计学意义的最早期异常，从而实现尽早干预。这就是芝加哥团队的研究方向。

And they're going to get a ton of information out from these sensors that tell you what happens when something goes awry. Because right now we can say, like, when you have an allergic reaction, your skin gets red and puffy. What is the earliest signal of that? And these sensors can look at the behaviors of these cells over time and then you can apply a large language model to look at the earliest statistically significant changes that can allow you to intervene as early as possible. So that's what Chicago is doing.

他们从皮肤细胞入手，同时研究神经肌肉接头——即神经元与肌肉的连接部位，这里控制着肌肉活动。这对渐冻症（ALS）和衰老研究都至关重要，因为老年人跌倒正是由于神经肌肉接头的信号传输变缓，导致大脑无法及时触发肌肉反应。

They're starting in the skin cells. They're also looking at the neuromuscular junction, which is the connection between where a neuron attaches to a muscle and tells the muscle how to behave. Super important in things like ALS, but also in aging. The slowed transmission of information across that neuromuscular junction is what causes old people to fall. Their brain cannot trigger their muscles to react fast enough.

我们希望通过植入这些传感器，来理解人体内各系统的协同运作。纽约团队正在进行相关但同样激动人心的项目：他们改造单个细胞，使其能进入人体识别变化。这个项目被他们称为——

And so we want to be able to embed these sensors to understand how these different interconnected systems within our bodies work together. In New York, they're doing a related but equally exciting project where they're engineering individual cells to be able to go in and identify changes in a human body. What they'll do is they're calling it

太疯狂了！我简直爱死这个创意。虽然不想跑题，但感兴趣的观众可以查查‘自适应光学’——当观测极微小或极遥远物体时，会存在大量畸变和干扰。而天才物理学家们想到：何不把这些干扰变成显微镜的一部分？直接让它们成为显微镜的镜片。

Wild. I mean, love it. I this is I don't wanna go on a tangent, but for those that wanna look it up, adaptive optics, there's a lot of distortion and interference when you try and look at something really small or really far away, and really smart physicists figured out, well, use the interference as part of the microscope, make those actually lenses of the microscope.

我们应该单独讨论成像问题。

We should talk about imaging separate.

那么说说

So talking

关于纽约生物实验室的事。

about the New York Biola.

这个思路非常巧妙。虽然不直观，但听完后你会觉得很有道理。是的，这并非一眼就能看明白。让那些已经能够导航至组织或嵌入组织中的细胞，成为该组织内部的显微镜。

It's extremely clever along those lines. It's not intuitive, but then when you hear it, it's like, it makes so much sense. Yeah. You know, it's not immediately intuitive. Make the cells that are already, can navigate to tissues or embed themselves in tissues, be the microscope within that tissue.

完全同意。我太喜欢这个想法了。

Totally. I love it.

我向亲友解释的方式是：这就是现实版的《神奇旅程》。我们正在利用免疫细胞进入人体——这些细胞本就拥有特殊权限，负责维护身体健康——然后引导它们去检测特定目标。比如可以设计一个免疫细胞进入体内检查冠状动脉：这些血管健康吗？是否存在斑块？因为斑块会导致堵塞进而引发心脏病。细胞能记录这些信息并反馈出来。

The way that I explain this to my friends and my family is this is fantastic voyage, but real life. Like, we are going into the human body and we're using the immune cells, which, you know, are privileged and already working to keep your body healthy, and being able to target them to examine certain things. So like you can engineer an immune cell to go in your body and look inside your coronary arteries and say, Are these arteries healthy or are there plaques? Because plaques lead to blockage, which lead to heart attacks. And the cell can then record that information and report it back out.

这只是纽约生物中心计划的前半部分。后半部分是：能否进一步设计细胞去解决问题？能否指令另一种具有体内运输能力的免疫细胞去精准清除那些斑块？这实在太令人兴奋了。他们将研究那些通常免疫系统无法触及的特殊区域，比如卵巢癌和胰腺癌。

That's the first half of what the New York Biohub is going to do. The second half is can you then engineer the cells to go do something about it? Can I then tell a different cell, immune cell, that is able to transport in your body to go in and clean that up in a targeted way? And so it's incredibly exciting. They're going to study things that are sort of immune privileged that your immune system normally doesn't have access to, things like ovarian and pancreatic cancer.

他们还将研究一系列神经退行性疾病，因为目前免疫系统对神经系统的介入途径有限。这既令人震撼又充满科幻感，但科学确实已发展到这样的阶段：如果你真的推动一群极其优秀的科学家，他们是否能在有机会时实现这一目标？答案大概是肯定的。只要给予足够时间、优秀团队和资源，这是可行的。

They'll also look at a number of neurodegenerative diseases since the immune system doesn't presently have a ton of access into the nervous system. But it's both mind blowing and it feels like sci fi, but science is actually in a place where if you really pushed a group of incredibly qualified scientists, could you do this if given the chance? The answer is like, probably. Give us enough time, the bright team and resources, like it's doable.

是的，我是说，这是个十到十五年的项目。但用工程改造细胞，这太棒了。

Yeah, I mean, it's ten to fifteen year project. Yeah. But it's awesome, engineered cells, yeah.

我欣赏这种乐观态度。当你说要让细胞成为显微镜时，我简直连连称是。这理念太合理了。是什么促使你们决定在现有大学体系内开展CCI工作，而不是在红木城那些可容纳生物科技公司的空置场地，直接招募多元背景人才从头开始？在研究生需要完成论文和第一作者发表的现有框架下做这件事，真是个非常有趣的决定。

I love the optimism. The moment you said make the cell the microscope, so to speak, I was like, yes, yes, and yes. It just makes so much sense. What motivated the decision to do the work of CCI in the context of existing universities, as opposed to, there's still some real estate up in Redwood City where there's a bunch of space to put biotech companies and just hiring people from all backgrounds and saying, hey, you know, have at it and doing this stuff from scratch. I mean, it's a very interesting decision to do this in the context of an existing framework of like graduate students that need to do a thesis and get a first author paper.

因为学术界存在整套既促进又限制科学发展的结构体系。我们之前讨论过的独立研究者模式，是传统科研方式的核心。而现在的模式截然不同，坦白说如果完全诚实的话，听起来效率要高得多。当然，说完这话我的NIH资助能否续约就难说了。但我们目标是一致的。

Because there's a whole set of structures within academia that I think both facilitate, but also limit the progression of science. That independent investigator model that we talked about a little bit earlier, it's so core to the way science has been done. This is very different and frankly sounds far more efficient if I'm to be completely honest. And, you know, we'll see if I renew my NIH funding after saying that. But I think we all want the same thing.

作为科学家和人类，我们都想理解生命运作方式，希望健康者保持健康，患者恢复健康。这归根结底就是目标，并不复杂，只是实现起来很难。

We all want to, as scientists and you know, as humans, we wanna understand the way we work and we want healthy people to persist to be healthy, we want sick people to get healthy. I mean, that's really ultimately the goal. It's not super complicated. It's just hard to do.

所以Biohub团队确实独立于大学体系。明白了。每个Biohub总共可能有50人进行深度研究。但这也意味着承认：并非所有该领域顶尖科学家都愿意离开大学或全职投入。因此Biohub的结构设计既能与大学合作，又能让各院校教师为整体项目贡献力量。

So the teams at the Biohub are actually independent of the universities. Got it. So each Biohub will probably have, in total, maybe 50 people working on deep efforts. However, it's an acknowledgment that not all of the best scientists who can contribute to this area are actually going to: one) want to leave a university or want to take on the full time scope of this project. So it's the ability to partner with universities and to have the faculty at all the universities be able to contribute to the overall project is how the Biohub is structured.

明白了。但CZI的很多工作方式都是长期迭代项目——尝试多种方案，筛选出最有价值的成果，然后在下一个五年计划中重点突破。我们刚结束科学计划第一个五年周期，尝试了各种模式。并非认为Biohub模式最优或唯一，但它确实以独特方式促成了大量合作，并提供了支持长期发展的技术资源。

Got it. But a lot of the way that we're approaching CZI is this long term iterative project to figure out, try a bunch of different things, figure out which things produce the most interesting results, and then double down on those in the next five year push. So we just went through this period where we kind of wrapped up the first five years of the science program. And we tried a lot of different models, all kinds of different things. It's not that the Biohub model, we don't think it's like the best or only model, but we found that it was sort of a really interesting way to unlock a bunch of collaboration and bring some technical resources that allow for this longer term development.

这并不是该领域其他机构普遍追求的方向。所以我们认为，好吧，这是个我们可以推动的有趣课题。但我必须说，我们确实相信合作的力量。同时我们也清楚，我们采用的方法并非唯一途径或行业标准。我们非常明白整个生态系统的现状，以及我们能在其中扮演的独特角色。

And it's not something that is widely being pursued across the rest of the field. So we figured, okay, this is like an interesting thing that we can help push on. But I mean, yeah, we do believe in the collaboration. But I also think that we come at this with, you know, we don't think that the way that we're pursuing this is like the only way to do this or the way that everyone should do it. We're pretty aware of, you know, is the rest of the ecosystem and how we can play a unique role in it.

这与现有科研方式高度协同，同时也填补了过去明显存在的关键空白。就具体实施而言，假设你们的大型语言模型结合影像工具发现某组基因簇的活动——比如导致胰腺在癌症特定阶段衰竭（要知道胰腺癌仍是最致命的癌症之一，当然还有其他可怕的病症）。当AI揭示出这些潜在药物靶点后，还需要在体外实验和小鼠模型中验证。那么实际转化到药物研发的流程是怎样的？

It feels very synergistic with the way science has already done, and also fills an incredibly important niche that frankly wasn't filled before. Along the lines of implementation, so let's say your large language models combined with imaging tools reveal that a particular set of genes acting in a cluster, I don't know, set up an organ crash, let's say the pancreas crashes at a particular stage of pancreatic cancer. I mean, still one of the most deadliest and the there are others that you certainly wouldn't want to get, but that's among the ones you wouldn't want to get the most. So you discover that, and then, and the idea is that, okay, then AI reveals some potential drug targets, but then bear out in vitro in addition in a mouse model. How is the actual implementation of, to drug discovery?

或许这个靶点具备成药性，或许不行。可能需要激光消融等其他技术手段，目前尚不明确。关键问题是：CZI会直接参与新疗法的临床转化吗？这是计划的一部分吗？

Or maybe this target is druggable, maybe it's not. Maybe it requires some other approach, you know, a laser ablation approach or something. We don't know. But ultimately, is CZI going to be involved in the implementation of new therapeutics? Is that the idea?

参与程度较低。

I Less so.

确实参与较少。这正是需要生态系统协作和认清自身边界的领域。有很多专业团队和初创公司更擅长推动转化研究。我们在罕见病领域的工作算是小规模切入——通过'罕见病联盟'项目，我们资助患者组织建立疾病登记系统，汇集患者群体的集体经验。

Less so. That's you know, this is where it's important to work in an ecosystem and to know your own limitations. Like, there are groups and startups and companies that take that and bring it to translation very effectively. I would say the place where we have a small window into that world is actually our work with rare disease groups. We have, through our Rare as one portfolio, funded patient advocates to create rare disease organizations where patients come together and actually pool their collective experience.

他们建立生物样本库和自然病史登记，既与研究人员合作开展疾病研究，也联合药企推动针对性的药物开发。需要指出的是，罕见病其实并不罕见：7000多种罕见病影响着庞大群体。从基础科研角度看，罕见病犹如观察人体正常机制的窗口——那些导致特定疾病的基因突变，往往也揭示了正常生物学的运作原理。

They build bio registries, registries of their natural history, and they both partner with researchers to do the research about their disease and with drug developers to incentivize drug developers to focus on what they may need for their disease. And one thing that's important to point out is that rare diseases aren't rare. There are over 7,000 rare diseases and collectively impact many, many individuals. And I think the thing that's from a basic science perspective, an incredibly fascinating thing about rare diseases is that there are actually windows to how the body normally should work. And so there are often mutations genes that were mutated, cause very specific diseases, but that tell you how the normal biology works as well.

明白了。也就是说CZI主要负责未来五到十年的核心目标与基础研究，后续靶点开发将交由生物技术公司进行验证和临床应用。

Got it. So you discussed basically the major goals and initiatives of the CZI for the next, say, five to ten years. And then beyond that, the targets will be explored by biotech companies. They'll grab those targets and test them and implement them.

我认为，最初的Biohub中也有几个团队对将想法直接转化为初创企业感兴趣。尽管这不是我们会追求的事情，因为我们是慈善机构，我们希望促成这些工作能够转化为公司和其他人接手并最终开发出治疗方法的项目。所以这是另一个领域。但这并非我们会亲自参与的。

There've also, I think, been a couple of teams from the initial Biohub that were interested in spinning out ideas, right into startups. Even though it's not a thing that we're gonna pursue, because we're a philanthropy, we want to enable the work that gets done to be able to get turned into companies and things that other people go take and run towards building ultimately therapeutics. So that's another zone. But that's not a thing that we're going to do.

明白了。我猜你们两位都是乐观主义者。这是让你们走到一起的部分原因吗？请原谅我转向一个私人问题，但我很喜欢CZI根源中体现出的那种乐观精神。

Got it. I gather you're both optimists. Yeah, is that part of what brought you together? Forgive me for switching to a personal question, but I love the optimism that seems to sit at the root of the CZI.

我得说我们是极其充满希望的人，但这种乐观在我们两人身上以不同方式体现。你会如何描述你的乐观与我的不同？这不是个陷阱问题。

I will say that we are incredibly hopeful people, but it manifests in different ways between the two of us. Yeah. How would you describe your optimism versus mine? It's not a loaded question.

我不知道。我想我对技术能构建什么可能更乐观。而因为你作为医生的职业关注点，我觉得你更清楚这些将如何实际影响人们的生活。对我来说，我的工作触及全球许多人，规模相当庞大。而对你来说，无论是通过你创办的学校还是我们支持的教育工作，能够改善个人生活——虽然这不是当前重点——我看到你对这类事情充满热情。

I don't know. I mean, think I'm more probably technologically optimistic about what can be built. And I think you, because of your focus as an actual doctor, kind of have more of a sense of how that's going to affect actual people in their lives. Whereas for me it's like a lot of my work is it's like we touch a lot of people around the world and the scale is sort of immense. And I think for you, just like it's like being able to improve the lives of individuals, whether it's students at any of the schools that you've started or any of the stuff that we've supported through the education work, which isn't the goal here or, you know, like just being able to improve people's lives in that way, I think is the thing that I've seen you be super passionate about.

不知道。你同意这种描述吗？我试着...

I don't know. Does that do you agree with that characterization? I'm trying to

是的，我同意。我觉得这很公允。我暗自觉得好笑，因为在日常生活中作为伴侣，我们的相对乐观表现为：马克总是对自己的时间管理过度乐观，会完全沉浸在有想法的探索中。

Yeah, I agree with that. I think that's very fair. And I'm sort of giggling to myself because in a day to day life as like life partners, our relative optimism comes through as, Mark just like is overly optimistic about his time management and will get engrossed in interesting ideas.

我迟到了。

I'm late.

他又迟到了。我每次都这样

And he's late. I every time

职位要求非常守时。

Positions are very punctual.

因为他迟到，每次等他时我都得把马克想象成乐观主义者。

And because he's late, I have to channel Mark as an optimist whenever I'm waiting for him.

这真是个不错的应对方式。我要开始用这招。

That's such a nice way of okay. I'll I'll start using that.

当我和孩子们在车道上等你时我就这么想：马克是个乐观主义者。所以他的乐观主义表现为偶尔迟到。而我则会想，这要怎么实现？比如我要打开电子表格。

I that's what I think when I'm in the driveway with the kids waiting for you. I'm like, Mark is an optimist. And so his optimism translates to some tardiness. Whereas I'm a sort of I'm like, how does what's how's how is this gonna happen? Like, I'm gonna open a spreadsheet.

我要开始制定计划，整合所有环节，打电话联系人把想法落实。

I'm gonna start putting together a plan and, like, putting pulling together all the pieces, calling people to sort of, like, bring something to life.

但这是我最喜欢的一句名言：乐观者往往成功，悲观者往往正确。确实，我觉得这在生活的很多方面都适用，对吧？

But it's one of my favorite quotes that is optimists tend to be successful and pessimists tend to be right. And yeah, mean, I think it's true in a lot of different aspects of life, right?

我们知道是谁说的吗？是你说的吗？马克思说过

We know who said that? Did you say that? Marx said

不，没有。绝对没有。不，我喜欢它。但这不是我发明的。

No, did not. Absolutely not. No, I like it. I did not invent it.

我们会给你的。我们会把它

We'll give it to you. We'll put it

放出来 不，

out No,

不，开个玩笑。

no, Just kidding.

但我确实认为这其中确有道理，对吧？就像讨论任何想法时，总有一堆理由说明它可能行不通。这些理由或许没错，提出的人也可能有其道理。但问题在于：这是看待世界最富有成效的方式吗？

But I do think that there's really something to it, right? And there's like, if you're discussing any idea, there's all these reasons why it might not work. And those reasons are probably true. The people who are stating them probably have some validity to it. But the question is that the most productive way to view the world?

而且我认为普遍而言，那些最高产、成就最多的人，往往需要保持乐观。因为如果你不相信某件事能成，又何必为之努力呢？

And I think across the board, I think the people who tend to be the most productive and get the most done, you kind of need to be optimistic. Because if you don't believe that something can get done, then why would you go work on it?

我之所以提出这个问题，是因为近来我们不断听到关于未来前景黯淡的种种说法。你们有孩子，所以有家庭——抱歉应该说你们本身就是家庭——还有原本独立的家庭如今融合在一起。但我钟爱CZI背后的乐观精神，因为在这一切背后，墙上镌刻着几则宏大宣言：比如未来在治疗疾病方面能比现在更好，甚至如你所说要消灭所有疾病。这种乐观主义令我动容。

The reason I asked the question is that these days we hear a lot about the future is looking so dark in these various ways. And you have children, so you have families, you are a family, excuse me, and you also have families independently that are now merged. But I love the optimism behind the CZI because know, behind all this, there's sort of a set of big statements on the wall. One, the future can be better than the present in terms of treating disease, maybe even, you said eliminating diseases, all diseases. I love that optimism.

而且实现这个目标存在可行路径。我们将真正投入资金、时间、精力、人才、技术和人工智能。所以我不得不问：生育孩子是否显著改变了你们对未来的看法？在听到所有这些悲观论调后...

And that there's a tractable path to do it. Like we're going to put literally, you know, money and time and energy and people and technology and AI behind that. And so I have to ask, was having children a significant modifier in terms of your your view of the future? Like, wow. Like, you hear all this doom and gloom.

比如他们的未来会怎样？你们可曾静心设想过没有疾病的未来图景？那是我们希望孩子生活的未来吗？我绝对投赞成票，这点无需讨论。但生育孩子是否在某种程度上启发了CZI的创立？

Like, what's the future going to be like for them? Did you sit back and think, you know, what would it look like if there was a future with no diseases? Is that the future we want our children in? I mean, I'm voting a big yes, so we're not gonna debate that at all. But was having children sort of an inspiration for the CZI in some way?

是的。我想我的回答要从个人经历说起。我父母是中越难民，祖辈是船民——

Yeah. So I think my answer to that, I would dial backwards for me. And I'll just tell a very brief story about my family. I'm the daughter of Chinese Vietnamese, refugees. My parents and grandparents were boat people.

或许你们记得，战争期间人们乘小船逃离越南进入南海。当时常有整船家庭遇难的悲剧。我几对相识的祖辈认定海外有更美好的未来，甘愿为此冒险，但又害怕失去所有子女。我父亲有五个兄弟姐妹，母亲有九个。

If you remember, people left Vietnam during the war in these small boats into the South China Sea. And there were stories about how these boats would sink with whole families on them. And so my grandparents, sets of grandparents, who knew each other decided that there was a better future out there and they were willing to take risk for it. But they were afraid of losing all of their kids. My dad is one of six, my mom is one of 10.

于是在那个黑暗年代，他们将两家孩子配对，让10-25岁的青少年（我母亲当时刚十几岁）在没有互联网和手机的时代分乘小船出发，只说'对岸见'。所有孩子都幸存了下来。

And so they decided that there was something out there in this bleak time, and they paired up their kids, one from each family, and sent them out on these little boats before the Internet, before cell phones, and just said, we'll see you on the other side. And the kids were between the ages of 10 to 25. So young kids. My mom was a teenager, early teen when this happened. And everyone made it.

如今我才能坐在这里与你对话。我怎能不相信更好的未来？希望这种信念已刻进我的表观遗传基因里，让我能传承...

And I get to sit here and talk to you. So how could I not believe that better is possible? And I hope that that's in my epigenetics somewhere and that I carry That that

是个精彩绝伦的故事。

is a spectacular story.

是不是很疯狂？

Isn't that wild?

确实很壮观。

It is spectacular.

面对这些，我怎能悲观？

How can I be a pessimist with that?

我太喜欢了。我特别感激你选择成为医生，因为你正将这种乐观精神、表观遗传学认知、心理理解和情感理解带入医学领域。我要感谢那些促成这个决定的人们。

I love it. And I so appreciate that you became a physician because you're now bringing that optimism and that epigenetic understanding and cognitive understanding and emotional understanding to the field of medicine. So I'm grateful to the people that made that decision.

是啊。而且你知道吗，虽然我一直知道这个故事，但直到自己有了孩子才真正体会到那种震撼。你会想，我绝不允许她只用玻璃瓶之类的东西。然后突然意识到，天啊，我的祖父母当年愿意冒险去相信更大更好的可能性，这简直令人惊叹。

Yeah. And then, you know, when I think you don't I've always known that story, but you don't understand how wild that feels until you have your own child. And you're like, well, I can't even I I refuse to let her use, you know, glass bottles only or something like that. And you're like, oh my god. Like, the risk and the sort of willingness of my grandparents to believe in something bigger and better is just astounding.

我们自己的孩子让这件事有了种紧迫感。

Our own children sort of give it a sense of urgency.

再次，这是个精彩的故事，你正在将知识传播到科学领域，同时也将知识引入科学领域。我对此非常欣赏，我们会在另一边再见。我有信心一切都会有所回报。非常感谢你分享这些。马可，你有机会谈谈，有了孩子是否改变了你的世界观？

Again, spectacular story, and you're sending knowledge out into the fields of science and bringing knowledge into the fields of science. And I love this, we'll see you on the other side. I'm confident that it will all come back. Well, thank you so much for that. Marco, you have the opportunity to talk about, did having kids change your worldview?

这真的很难超越

And it's really tough to beat

那个故事确实难以超越。而且他们也是你的孩子，所以在这种情况下，可以说是一举两得。

that story. It is tough to beat that story. And they are also your children, so in this case, you get two for the price of one, so to speak.

有了孩子绝对会改变你的时间观念。我认为其中一点就是，我们相识以来一直讨论的那些你最终想做的事情。但突然有了孩子，我们就得抓紧行动了，对吧？

Having children definitely changes your time horizon. So I think that that's one thing is you just There are all these things that I think we had talked about for as long as we've known each other that you eventually want to go do. But then it's like, oh, we're having kids. We need to like get on this. Right?

所以我认为

So I think there's

那实际上是我们第一个孩子出生前的待办事项清单之一。

That was actually one of the checklists, the baby checklist before the first.

就像是宝宝要来了，你得赶紧启动CZI。

It was like the baby's coming. You have to like start CZI.

确实如此。

Truly.

而且，就像坐在医院产房里，还在修改那份我们要发布的工作公告信

And, like, sitting in the hospital delivery room, finishing editing the letter that we were going to publish to to announce the work

就是我们正在做的事情。夸张了？其实没有。我们确实是在修改最终稿。

that we're doing. Exaggeration. It was not. We really were editing the final draft.

在迎接人类孩子之前先迎接CZI的诞生。这是个了不起的倡议。我从它创立之初就关注着，已经取得了巨大成功。科学界的每个人——我与他们有很多交流——都深有同感，它的未来会更加光明。这很明显，感谢你们扩展到中西部和纽约，我们都非常期待看到这一切的发展方向。

Birth CZI before you birth a human child. It's an incredible initiative. I've been following it since its inception, and it's already been tremendously successful. And everyone in the field of science, and I have a lot of communication with those folks, feels the same way, and the future is even brighter for it. It's clear, and thank you for expanding to the Midwest and New York, and we're all very excited to see where all of this goes.

我同样持乐观态度，是的。也感谢你今天抽空。

I share in your optimism, Yeah. And thank you for your time today.

是啊。你也是。

Yeah. You.

谢谢。还有很多工作要做。

Thank you. A lot more to do.

现在来谈谈我与马克·扎克伯格的对话。话题稍有转变。您以科技发展领域的贡献闻名，但由于个人兴趣及元技术与心理健康的交汇点，您正逐渐成为健康的代名词——无论您是否意识到这一点。部分原因在于网上流传着您练习巴西柔术的视频，而且您最近还赢得了一场柔术比赛。

And now for my discussion with Mark Zuckerberg. Slight shift of topic here. You're extremely well known for your role in technology development, but by virtue of your personal interests and also where metatechnology interfaces with mental health and physical health, you're starting to become synonymous with health, whether or you realize it or not. Part of that is because there's post footage of you rolling jujitsu. You won a jujitsu competition recently.

您还涉足其他武术形式、水上运动包括冲浪等等。虽然您身体力行，但我们或许可以先从科技话题切入。许多人认为科技——尤其是涉及屏幕的科技——必然对健康有害，但事实未必如此。您能否阐述科技如何与身心健康相互影响，甚至可能促进健康？

You're doing other forms of martial arts, water sports, including surfing, and on and on. So you're doing it yourself, but maybe we could just start off with technology and get this issue out of the way first, which is that I think many people assume that technology, especially technology that involves a screen, excuse me, of any kind, is going to be detrimental to our health. But that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. So could you explain how you see technology meshing with, inhibiting, or maybe even promoting physical and mental health?

当然。我认为这是个极其重要的话题。我们的研究表明，科技的影响并非全好或全坏。关键在于使用方式——这决定了它是否成为积极体验。即便在社交媒体内部，用户行为也呈现多样性。

Sure. I mean, I think this is a really important topic. The research that we've done suggests that it's not all good or all bad. I think how you're using the technology has a big impact on whether it is basically a positive experience for you. And even within technology, even within social media, there's not one type of thing that people do.

最理想的状态是建立有意义的社交联结。大量研究证实，人际关系和友谊最能带来幸福感，甚至与长寿健康存在关联。因为这种社群归属感至关重要。社交媒体若能帮助人们相互理解、共情、分享生活经历，我认为这本质上是积极的。

I think at its best, you're forming meaningful connections with other people. And there's a lot of research that basically suggests that it's the relationships that we have and friendships that kind of bring the most happiness in our lives. And at some level, end up even correlating with living a longer and healthier life. Because that kind of grounding that you have in community ends up being important for that. So I think that aspect of social media, which is the ability to connect with people, to understand what's going on in people's lives, have empathy for them, communicate what's going on with your life, express that.

当然也存在负面可能，比如网络霸凌等不良互动——这方面我们已采取诸多措施保障用户安全，包括为青少年提供家长监护工具。但除了人际互动，还有被动消费内容的一面：最佳状态是娱乐功能，这也是人类重要需求。

I thought that's generally positive. There are ways that it can be negative in terms of bad interactions, things like bullying, which we can talk about, because there's a lot that we've done to basically make sure that people can be safe from that and give people tools and give kids the ability to have the right parental controls, so their parents can oversee that. But that's sort of the interacting with people side. There's another side of all this, which I think of as just like passive consumption, which at its best, it's entertainment, right? And entertainment is an important human thing too.

不过我认为娱乐性内容对长期健康的助益，远不及社交连接功能。最糟糕的是如今网络上充斥的负面新闻——浏览半小时后很难让人对世界保持乐观。关键在于平衡：社交媒体应侧重人际连接，当用于获取启迪性、教育性内容而非制造负面情绪时，才能发挥积极作用——这正是我们产品追求的方向，也与社区价值观高度契合。

But I don't think that that has quite the same association with the long term well-being and health benefits as being able to help people connect with other people does. And I think at its worst, some of the stuff that we see online, I think these days a lot of the news is just so relentlessly negative that it's just hard to come away from an experience where you're looking at the news for half an hour and feel better about the world. So I think that there's a mix on this. I think the more that social media is about connecting with people, and the more that when you're consuming and using the media part of social media to learn about things that enrich you and can provide inspiration or education, as opposed to things that just leave you with a more toxic feeling, And that that's sort of the balance that we try to get right across our products. And I think we're pretty aligned with the community.

归根结底，用户不希望使用产品后产生负面情绪。人们常从信息功能和实用性评价产品，但设计时同样需要考虑用户体验——无论是硬件设计带来的美学感受，还是软件引发的情感共鸣。毕竟没有人愿意在使用产品后感到不适。

Because at the end of the day, people don't want to use a product and come away feeling bad. There's a lot that people talk about, evaluate a lot of these products in terms of information and utility. But I think it's as important when you're designing a product to think about what kind of feeling you're creating with the people who use it. Whether that's kind of an aesthetic sense when you're designing hardware, Or just kind of like what do you make people feel? And generally people don't want to feel bad.

所以我认为，这并不意味着我们要让人们远离世界上发生的坏事。但我确实不觉得人们希望我们整天只展示这些极其负面的内容。因此，我们努力解决各种问题，确保尽可能帮助人们建立联系，提供有效的工具来屏蔽那些可能欺凌或骚扰他们的人。

So think that doesn't mean that we want to shelter people from bad things that are happening in the world. But I don't really think that it's not what people want for us to just be of just showing all this super negative stuff all day long. So we work hard on all these different problems. Making sure that we're helping connect people as best as possible. Helping make sure that we give people good tools to block people who might be bullying them or harass them.

特别是对年轻人，16岁以下的用户默认进入私密体验模式。我们提供各种家长控制工具，让父母能在合理范围内了解孩子的动态。另一方面，我们也尝试提供工具帮助人们了解自己的时间花费情况。比如当青少年陷入单一内容循环时，我们会提醒：'嘿，这类内容你已经看很久了，要不要试试别的？这里还有其他推荐。'

Or especially for younger folks, anyone under the age of 16 defaults into an experience where their experience is private. We have all these parental tools. So that way parents can kind of understand what their children are up to in a good balance. And then on the other side, we try to give people tools to understand how they're spending their time. And we try to give people tools so that if you're a teen and you're kind of stuck in some loop of just looking at one type of content, we'll nudge you and say, hey, you've been looking at content of this type for a while.

我认为有很多方法可以推动事情向积极方向发展。但首先需要建立更细致的认知——这不是非黑即白的问题。越是能将其转化为积极体验，对我们的产品使用者就越有利。

How about something else? And here's a bunch of other examples. So I think that there were things that you can do to kind of push this in a positive direction. But I think it just starts with having a more nuanced view of like this isn't all good or all bad. And the more that you can make it kind of a positive thing, the better this will be for all the people who use our products.

这个观点很有道理。关于负面体验，我同意你的看法。没人想要即时的负面体验。但有些人可能会担忧——比如我自己使用Instagram的经历，我既用它发布信息也消费内容，而且非常喜欢这个平台。

That makes really good sense. In terms of the negative experience, I agree. I don't think anyone wants a negative experience in the moment. I think where some people get concerned perhaps, I and think about my own interactions with say Instagram, which I use all the time for getting information out, but also consuming information. And I happen to love it.

我基本上就是在这里启动了我的播客非音频板块，并持续运营。这让我联想到高度加工食品的体验——当下感觉美味，

It's where I essentially launched the non podcast segment of my podcast and continue to. I can think of experiences that are a little bit like highly processed food, where it tastes good at the time.

嗯。

Mhmm.

非常吸引人但未必有营养，事后感觉并不好。对我来说，Instagram默认推荐的那些小拼贴内容就是如此。偶尔我会注意到——这完全是我的问题而非平台的错——比如很多街头斗殴之类的内容。

It's highly engrossing, but it's not necessarily nutritious, and you don't feel very good afterwards. Yeah. So for me, that would be my, the little collage of default options to click on in Instagram. Occasionally I noticed, and this just reflects my failure, not Instagram's, right? That there are a lot of like street fight things, like people beating people up on the street.

我必须承认这些内容有种难以抗拒的吸引力。虽然我本身并不喜欢暴力内容，但总会忍不住点开这类视频，想看看发生了什么。结果就看到有人被打，街头混战之类的场景。最近这类内容总是推给我。说到底，这都是我自己的问题。

And I have to say these have a very strong gravitational pull. I'm not somebody that enjoys seeing violence per se, but I find myself, I'll click on one these, like what happened? And I'll see someone like you know, get hit and there's like a little melee on the street or something. And those seem to be offered to me a lot lately. And again, this is my fault.

这反映了我之前的搜索习惯。但我注意到这种吸引力的问题在于——我什么都没学到。它没有教给我任何实用的街头自卫技巧。与此同时，我也很喜欢那些可爱动物的内容，所以这类推荐也很多。

It reflects my prior searching experience. But I noticed that it has a bit of a gravitational pull where, I didn't learn anything. It's not teaching me any kind of useful street self defense skills of any kind. And at the same time, I also really enjoy some of the cute animal stuff. So And I get a lot of those also.

所以推送给我的就是这种两极分化的内容拼贴，完全反映了我之前的搜索行为。你可以说萌宠视频只是娱乐，但有些确实能给我带来纯粹的快乐。我特别喜欢动物——不只是小猫，还包括那些我从没见过的新奇动物，它们之间的互动让我由衷感到愉悦。

So there's just polarized, you know, collage that's offered to me that reflects my prior search behavior. You could argue that the cute animal stuff is just entertainment, but actually, it fills me with a feeling in some cases that truly delights me. I delight in animals. And we're not just talking about kittens. Mean, animals I've never seen before, interactions between animals I've never seen before that truly delight me.

这些内容能给我正能量，每次退出Instagram时都觉得心情更好。从这个角度我很感谢算法。但核心问题是：算法只是反映用户登录前常看的内容？还是像你所说，它也在刻意营造让人愉悦的体验以延续这种积极情绪？

They energize me in a positive way that when I leave Instagram, I do think I'm better off. So I'm grateful for the algorithm in that sense. But I guess the direct question is, is the algorithm just reflective of what one has been looking at a lot prior to that moment where they log on? Or is it also trying to do exactly what you described, which is trying to give people a good feeling experience that leads to more good feelings?

是的。我们是从长期价值来考量这个问题的。举个简单例子：几年前我们遇到过标题党新闻的问题。那些标题抓人眼球，让你觉得非点不可，但内容却文不对题——可人们就是会点击。

Yeah. I mean, I think we try to do this in a long term way, right? I think one simple example of this is we had this issue a number of years back about clickbait news. So articles that would have basically a headline that grabbed your attention, that made you feel like, oh, I need to click on this, then you click on it. And then the article is actually about something that's somewhat tangential to it, but people clicked on it.

十年前我们可能觉得‘有人点击就是好事’。但现在很容易就能监测到：人们点击后根本不会认真阅读新闻，反复几次后用户满意度其实很低。我们一方面通过用户行为数据来衡量，另一方面也会邀请真实用户参与测试，让他们评价‘这些潜在推送内容中哪些最有价值’或‘能带来最佳体验’。让算法决策与用户真实需求对齐。通过这些措施，我们在减少标题党方面取得了很大进展——虽然它还没从互联网消失，但在我们平台上已经少多了。

So the naive version of this stuff, the ten year old version, it was like, people seem to be clicking on this, maybe that's good. But it's actually a pretty straightforward exercise to instrument the system to realize that, hey, people click on this and then they don't really spend a lot of time reading the news after clicking on it. And after they do this a few times, it doesn't really correlate with them saying that they're having a good experience. Some of how we measure this is just by looking at how people use the services. But I think it's also important to balance that by having real people come in and tell us, okay, we show them, here are the stories that we could have showed you.

哪些内容对你最有意义？或能带来最佳体验？我们将算法输出与用户真实诉求进行校准。通过这类系列措施，我们在减少标题党方面取得了长足进步。虽然它还没从网络绝迹，但在我们服务中已经得到有效控制。

Which of these are most meaningful to you? Or would make it so that you have the best experience? And just mapping the algorithm and what we do to that ground truth of what people say that they want. So I think that through a set of things like that, we really have made large steps to minimize things like clickbait over time. It's not gone from the internet, but I think we've done a good job of minimizing it on our services.

尽管如此，我认为我们需要非常谨慎，避免对不同人群的喜好采取家长式态度。我不确定所有人都会对可爱动物感到愉悦，虽然难以想象有人会对此反感，但他们的积极反应可能不如你刚才表达的那么强烈。或许热衷格斗的人更愿意观看街头斗殴视频——前提是这些内容符合我们的社区标准。当然，某些暴力程度是我们根本不想展示的，但这属于另一个问题了。

Within that though, I do think that we need to be pretty careful about not being paternalistic about what makes different people feel good. So I don't know that everyone feels good about cute animals. I can't imagine that people would feel really bad about it, but maybe they don't have as profound of a positive reaction to it as you just expressed. And I don't know, maybe people who are more into fighting would look at the street fighting videos, assuming that they're within our community standards. Think that there's a level of violence that we just don't want to be showing at all, but that's a separate question.

但如果视频确实存在，比如我作为综合格斗爱好者，虽然很少看街头斗殴视频，但若接触到这类内容，或许会觉得有所收获。在公司发展历程中，我们有时过于居高临下地评判内容优劣，规定'这是好内容''那对你有害'。我认为应该更关注长期影响。

But if they are, mean, then it's like, I mean, I'm pretty into MMA. I don't get a lot of street fighting videos. But if I did, maybe I'd feel like I was learning something from that. I think at various times in the company's history, we've been a little bit too paternalistic about saying, this is good content, this is bad, you should like this, this is unhealthy for you. And I think that we wanna look at the long term effects.

我们不应陷入短期循环——不能因为今天做了某件事就认定这是长期追求。只要综合考量用户宣称的诉求和实际行为，给予人们选择喜好的合理自由度，我觉得这才是正确的价值导向。当然，这并非适用于所有情况，比如霸凌或煽动暴力等明显越界行为，我们已有完整的社区标准来约束。

You don't wanna get stuck in a short term loop of like, okay, just because you did this today doesn't mean it's like what aspire for yourself over time. But I think as long as you look at the long term of what people both say they want and what they do, giving people a fair amount of latitude to like the things that they like, I just think feels like the right set of values to bring to this. Now, of course, that doesn't go for everything. There are things that are kind of truly off limits and things that like bullying, for example, or things that are really inciting violence, things like that. Mean, we have the whole community standards around this.

除了这些——但愿多数人能达成共识（比如霸凌是错的，希望至少99%的人认同）——这些极端恶劣行为之外，我认为应该让人们自由选择他们喜欢的内容。

But I think except for those things which I would hope that most people can agree, Okay, bullying is bad, right? I hope that 100% of people agree with that. Not 100, maybe 99%. Except for the things that kind of get that sort of very, that feel pretty extreme and bad like that. I think you want to give people space to like what they want to like.

昨天我有幸向Meta团队学习了针对青少年用户的平台安全保护措施。说实话，他们基于过滤机制的丰富工具和个性化设置让我惊喜——这些设计不仅能保持中立，更能积极促进用户心理健康。不过谈话中我意识到：虽然工具众多，但用户真的知道它们存在吗？以我个人使用Instagram的经历为例，正是通过Adam Masary的周五问答，我才了解到许多隐藏功能。

Yesterday, I had the very good experience of learning from the meta team about safety protections that are in place for kids who are using meta platforms. And frankly, I was like really positively surprised at the huge number of filter based tools and just ability to customize the experience so that it can stand the best chance of enriching, not just remaining neutral, but enriching their mental health status. Yeah. One thing that came about in that conversation, however, was I realized there are all these tools, but do people really know that these tools exist? And I think about my own experience with Instagram, I love watching Adam Masary's Friday Q and As because he explains a lot of the tools that I didn't know existed.

我强烈推荐大家观看这个栏目（每周四收集问题，周五解答）。如果连成年用户都需要通过这种渠道才能发现工具，Meta如何看待'提高工具认知度'这个挑战？平台上存在数十种实用工具，但大多数人可能只熟悉标签、@功能、快拍与动态等基础操作——就像我也刚学会发Threads。

And if people haven't seen that, I highly recommend they watch that. I think every, it takes questions on Thursdays and answers them most every Fridays. So if I'm not aware of the tools without watching that, that exists for adults, How does Meta look at the challenge of making sure that people know that there are all these tools? I mean, dozens and dozens of very useful tools, but I think most of us just know the hashtag, the tag, the click, stories versus feed. We now noted that, you know, I also post to threads.

我们了解主要功能和渠道，但这就好比拥有一辆具备越野飞行等惊人功能却未被充分认知的汽车。

I mean, we know the major channels and tools, but this is like owning a vehicle that has incredible features that one doesn't realize can take you off road, can allow your vehicle to fly.

我是说，

I mean,

这里面内容很多。那么你认为应该怎么做才能把这些信息传达出去？也许这次对话可以提示人们

there's a lot there. So what do you think could be done to get that information out? Maybe this conversation could cue people to

这也是我想和你讨论的部分原因——我认为社交媒体的大部分讨论都偏离了重点。人们其实拥有各种工具来掌控自己的使用体验，但主流叙事总在纠结'这对青少年是不是有害'这类问题。实际上关键在于：使用体验是如何被调适的？人们是否在用它建立积极联系？如果是的话，我认为这非常有益。

That's their part of the reason why I wanted to talk to you about this is I think most of the narrative around social media is not, Okay, all of the different tools that people have to control their experience. It's the kind of narrative of, is this just negative for teens or something? And I think, again, a lot of this comes down to how is the experience being tuned? And are people using it to connect in positive ways? And if so, I think it's really positive.

所以我觉得部分解决方案可能是需要更多走出去和人们交流。产品端也有改进空间——比如青少年注册时，我们会引导他们完成一套详尽的流程来介绍这些功能。但这也有局限，对吧？因为新人注册时如果被各种功能列表轰炸，他们只会想着'我刚注册这个，根本还不了解服务内容'。

So yeah, think part of this is we probably just need to get out and talk to people more about it. And then there's an in product aspect, which is if you're a teen and you sign up, we take you through a pretty extensive experience that tries to outline some of this. But that has limits too, right? Because when you sign up for a new thing, if you're bombarded with like, here's a list of features, you're like, Okay, I just signed up for this. I don't really understand much about what the service is.

用户更可能先去找熟人关注，而不是学习防骚扰设置。因此我认为必须把这些工具放在使用场景中展示。比如当用户查看评论、准备删除或编辑时，适时提示'知道吗？你可以通过这些方式管理内容'。在收件箱过滤消息时也要实时提醒。

Let me go find some people to follow who are my friends on here before I learn about controls to prevent people from harassing me or something. That's why I think it's really important to also show a bunch of these tools in context. So if you're looking at comments and if you go to delete a comment or you go to edit something, try to give people prompts in line. It's like, hey, did you know that you can manage things in these ways around that? Or when you're in the inbox and you're filtering something, it's remind people in line.

考虑到用户基数庞大且每个控制功能都很精细，我认为大部分教育工作必须在产品内完成。但通过这类对话和其他推广，我们能提高大众认知度。这样当相关功能出现时，用户就能反应过来'啊，我知道这个控制功能，它是这样用的'。

So just because of the number of people who use the products and the level of nuance around each of the controls, I think the vast majority of that education, I think, needs to happen in the product. But I do think that through conversations like this and others that we need to be doing, and we can create a broader awareness that those things exist. That way at least people are primed. So that way when those things pop up in the product, people are oh yeah, I knew that there was this control and here's how I would use that.

比如我发现限制功能比拉黑在多数情况下更实用。虽然有时不得不拉黑，但限制功能可以筛选特定评论——比如当你发现某人可能有攻击倾向时。需要说明的是，我个人不太在意别人对我说什么，但我坚持在评论区实施'课堂规则'：就像在大学课堂绝不容忍人身攻击一样，我的评论区也不允许这类行为。

Like I find the restrict function to be very useful more than the block function in most cases. I do sometimes have to block people, but the restrict function is really useful that you could filter specific comments. Know, someone might have a, you might recognize that someone has a tendency to be a little aggressive. And I should point out that I actually don't really mind what people say to me, but I try and maintain what I call classroom rules in my comment section where I don't like people attacking other people because I would never tolerate that in the university classroom. I'm not gonna tolerate that in the comment section, for instance.

是的，我认为你刚才提到的限制与屏蔽的例子也触及了产品设计的重要层面。屏蔽是一种非常强大的工具——如果有人找你麻烦，你只想让他们从你的体验中消失，你完全可以做到。但这种设计取舍在于：为了让某人彻底从你的体验中消失（彼此不再出现在对方视野中），本质上对方会意识到你屏蔽了他们。这就是为什么我认为诸如限制或内容过滤（比如单纯不想看到某些话题内容）等功能存在意义。人们选择不同工具往往出于非常微妙的心理——可能你希望某些内容不显示，但又不愿让发布者知道你在刻意隐藏。

Yeah, and I think that the example that you just used about restrict versus block gets to something about product design that's important too, which is that block is sort of this very powerful tool that if someone is giving you a hard time and you just want them to disappear from the experience, you can do it. But the design trade off with that is that in order to make it so that the person is just gone from the experience, and that you don't show up to them, they don't show up to you, inherent to that is that they will have a sense that you blocked them. And that's why I think some stuff like restrict or just filtering, like I just don't want to see as much stuff about this topic. People like using different tools for very subtle reasons. Maybe you want the content to not show up, but you don't want the person who's posting the content to know that you don't want it to show up.

或许你不想让某些消息出现在主收件箱，但又不愿直接告诉对方你们已不是朋友之类的关系。实际上我们需要提供不同层级的工具，这些工具在社交动态处理上具有不同强度的控制力和精细度，从而真正让人们按自身需求定制体验。

Maybe you don't wanna get the messages in your main inbox, but you don't want to tell the person that actually, that you're not friends or something like that. You actually need to give people different tools that have different levels of kind of power and nuance around how the social dynamics are and using them play out in order to really allow people to tailor the experience in the ways that they want.

关于限制社交媒体使用时长的问题，我找不到特别可靠的数据。究竟多少时间算过量？我认为这取决于用户浏览的内容类型、年龄等因素。

In terms of trying to limit total amount of time on social media, I couldn't find really good data on this. You know, how much time is too much? I mean, I think it's gonna depend on what one is looking at, the age of the user, etcetera.

但我

But I

知道你们有些工具能提示用户使用时长。是否存在自我调节的工具？比如联想到希腊神话中的塞壬——人们把自己绑在桅杆上蒙住眼睛以免被诱惑。除了临时删除应用再重装之外，是否存在真正的锁定功能？能让用户主动禁止自己访问应用？

know that you have tools that cue the user to how long they've been on a given platform. Are there tools to self regulate? Like, I'm thinking about like the Greek myth of the sirens and, you know, people, you know, tying themselves to the mast and covering their eyes so that they're not drawn in by the sirens. Is there a function aside from deleting the app temporarily and then reinstalling it every time you want to use it again? Is there a true lockout, self lockout function where one can lock themselves out of access to the app?

我们确实提供了管理工具：用户端有使用工具，家长端有监控工具。目前我们主要帮助人们理解使用情况并提供提醒功能。不过你之前问的'是否存在过量使用时间'很难回答，因为这完全取决于具体使用场景。

Well, I think we give people tools that let them manage this. And there's the tools that you get to use, and then there's the tools that the parents get to use to basically see how the usage works. But yeah, I think that there's different kind of, I think for now we've mostly focused helping people understand this and then give people reminders and things like that. It's tough though to answer the question that you were talking about before this, is there an amount of time which is too much? Because it does really get to what you're doing.

但如果把视野扩展到未来——比如我们正在开发的增强现实眼镜社交体验，届时很多互动会像物理世界般自然（比如与朋友聚会或同事协作），只不过对方会以全息影像形式出现，让你感觉他们就在身边。问题在于：这种形式的社交是否存在时间上限？理论上，如果我们能实现与物理在场完全等同的丰富体验和临场感，那么使用时长就不该受到比现实社交更严格的限制——当然这不包括24小时使用，毕竟人们还有其他事务要处理。

But if you fast forward beyond just the apps that we have today to an experience that is like a social experience in the future of the augmented reality glasses or something that we're building, a lot of this is gonna be you're interacting with people in the way that you would physically as if you were kind of like hanging out with friends or working with people. But now they can show up as holograms and you feel like you're present right there with them no matter where they actually are. And the question is, is there too much time to spend interacting with people like that? Well, at the limit, if we can get that experience to be as rich and giving you as good of a sense of presence as you would have if you were physically there with someone, then I don't see why you would wanna restrict the amount that people use that technology to any less than what would be the amount of time that you'd be comfortable interacting with people physically. Which obviously is not going be twenty four hours a day, you have to do other stuff.

你工作，就需要睡觉。但我认为关键在于你如何使用这些东西。如果你主要用这些服务来——比如你陷入不断刷新闻的循环，这确实会让你进入一种负面心理状态，那我就不知道了。我是说，可能在短期内这样做对你来说是件好事。但即便如此，影响也不是零。

You work, you need to sleep. But I think it really gets to how you're using these things. Whereas if what you're primarily using the services for is to You're getting stuck in loops reading news or something that is really kind of getting you into a negative mental state, then I don't know. I mean, I think that there's probably a relatively short period of time that maybe that's kind of a good thing that you wanna be doing. But again, even then it's not zero.

对吧？因为新闻可能让你不开心，但这并不意味着解决办法就是对世界上发生的负面事件一无所知。我只是觉得不同的人对此有不同的承受能力。我认为总体上保持一定程度的认知可能是好的，只要不超过你与生俱来的承受限度。所以我也说不准。

Right? Because it's just because news might make you unhappy doesn't mean that the answer is to be unaware of negative things that are happening in the world. I just think that there's like different people have different tolerances for what they can take on that. And I think we Generally having some awareness is probably good as long as it's not more than you're kind of constitutionally able to take. So I don't know.

尽量不要用家长式作风来处理这个问题，我们的方法是通过提供工具来赋能人们——无论是成年人还是青少年及其父母——让他们掌握理解自身经历和使用这些工具的方法，然后在此基础上发展。

Try to not be too paternalistic about this as our approach, but we want to empower people by giving them the tools, both people and if you're a teen, your parents, to have tools to understand what you're experiencing and how you're using these things, then go from there.

是的，我认为这需要我们每个人都具备一定程度的自我调节能力。我喜欢这种不过分家长式的理念，这似乎是正确的方向。我发现自己偶尔需要确保不是在被动刷屏，而是在学习。我喜欢为信息整理和传播贡献力量。

Yeah, I think it requires of all of us some degree of self regulation. I like this idea of not being too paternalistic. I mean, that's, it seems like the right way to go. I find myself occasionally having to make sure that I'm not just passively scrolling, that I'm learning. I like forging for organizing and dispersing information.

这就是我毕生的事业。我从社交媒体中学到了太多东西，发现了很棒的论文和绝妙的想法。我认为评论区是宝贵的反馈来源——我这么说可不是因为你正坐在这里。

That's been my life's career. So, I've learned so much from social media. I find great papers, great ideas. I think comments are a great source of feedback. And I'm not just saying that because you're sitting here.

特别是Instagram，还有其他Meta平台，对我传播科学与健康信息帮助极大。最让我兴奋的是今天才有机会首次体验你们的新VR平台——最新款Oculus。我们还可以聊聊那副Ray-Ban智能眼镜。当然，这两种体验至今仍让我震撼不已，尤其是Ray-Ban眼镜。

I mean, Instagram in particular, but other meta platforms have been tremendously helpful for me to get science and health information out. One of the things that I'm really excited about, which I only had the chance to try for the first time today, is your new VR platforms, the newest Oculus. And then we can talk about the glasses, the Ray Bans. Sure. Those are still, those two experiences are still kind of blowing my mind, especially the Ray Ban glasses.

关于这个我有很多问题，不过我会克制住的，但

And I have so many questions about this, so I'll resist, but

我们可以深入探讨这个话题。

We can get into that.

好的，嗯，是的，我对VR有些经验。我的实验室使用过VR。斯坦福大学的杰里米·巴伦森实验室是VR和混合现实领域的先驱实验室之一。我想他们以前称之为增强现实，但现在叫混合现实。我觉得今天你们让我体验的VR最令人震撼的是它与现实房间——我们称之为物理房间——的完美交互。

Okay, well, yeah, I have some experience with VR. My lab has used VR. Jeremy Balenson's lab at Stanford is one of the pioneering labs of VR and mixed reality. I guess some, they used to call it augmented reality, but now mixed reality. I think what's so striking about the VR that you guys had me try today is how well it interfaces with the real room, let's call it the physical room.

我仍然能看到人，能看到家具的位置，所以不会撞到任何东西。我能看到人们的笑容，在做这个感觉像真实武术体验时，还能看到桌上的水杯——虽然实际上没有被击中，但在虚拟中被击中，这体验极其吸引人。而且从好的方面来说，它确实规避了许多早期担忧。巴伦实验室，也就是杰里米的实验室，很早就提出过：即使对成年人大脑而言，每天使用VR也存在时间和程度限制，因为它可能扰乱前庭系统和平衡感。所有这些似乎都在VR的新迭代版本中得到了解决——我们结束后完全没有眩晕感。

I could still see people, I could see where the furniture was, so I wasn't gonna bump into anything. I could see people's smiles, I could see my water on the table while I was doing this, what felt like a real martial arts experience, except I wasn't getting hit, while I was getting hit virtually, but it's extremely engaging. And yet it, on the good side of things, it really bypasses a lot of the early concerns that Balen's lab, again, Jeremy's lab, was early to say that, oh, you know, there's a limit to how much VR one can or should use each day, even for the adult brain, because it can really disrupt your vestibular system, your sense of balance. All of that seems to have been dealt with in this new iteration of VR. Like we didn't come out of it feeling dizzy at all.

我没有感到重新进入房间时有任何不适的突兀感。进入VR时当然会有'哇，这是个不同世界'的冲击，但你可以向左看并说'哦，有人刚进门。嘿，最近怎样？等等，我在玩这个游戏'——就像小时候玩任天堂时有人走进来一样。它完全吸引了你，但你还是能注意到他们的存在。

I didn't feel like I was reentering the room in a way that was really jarring. Going into it is obviously, woah, this is a different world, but you can look to your left and say, oh, someone just came in the door. Hey, how's it going? Hold on, I'm playing this game just as it was when I was a kid playing a Nintendo and someone would walk in. It's fully engrossing, but you'd be like, hold on, and you see they're there.

首先，太棒了，令人难以置信。接下来的问题是：我们该怎么称呼这种体验？因为它确实是混合的，是真正的混合现实体验。

So first of all, bravo, incredible. And then the next question is, you know, what is this, what do we even call this experience? Because it is truly mixed. It's a truly mixed reality experience.

是的，混合现实算是涵盖虚拟现实和增强现实结合体验的总称。增强现实就是你未来通过智能眼镜最终能获得的体验——主要看到真实世界，但可以加入全息影像。我认为未来你会走进一个房间，里面的全息影像和实体物品一样多。想想所有的纸张、艺术品、实体游戏、媒体、工作站...

Yeah, I mean, mixed reality is sort of the umbrella term that refers to the combined experience of virtual and augmented reality. So augmented reality is what you're eventually going to get with some future version of the smart glasses where you're primarily seeing the world, but you can put holograms in it. So I think that will have a future where you're gonna walk into a room and there's be as many holograms as physical objects. If you just think about like all the paper, the kind of art, physical games, media, your workstation,

任何东西。如果我们以MMA格斗为例，如果能直接在桌上绘制出来反复观看，而不是转身看屏幕。

anything If we refer to, let's say an MMA fight, if we could just draw it up on the table right here and just see it repeat as opposed to us turning and looking at a screen.

是的，我是说未来任何现有的屏幕都可能通过智能眼镜变成全息影像，对吧？当你有了能在那里投射全息影像的眼镜时，实际上并不需要实体存在。这是个有趣的思维实验，可以四处想想：世界上哪些实物其实不必是实体的？比如你的椅子确实需要实体，因为你要坐在上面。

Yeah, I mean pretty much any screen that exists could be a hologram in the future with smart glasses, Right? There's nothing that actually physically needs to be there for that when you have glasses that can put a hologram there. And and it's an interesting thought experiment to just go around and think about, okay, what of the things that are physical in the world need to actually be physical? And your chair does, right? Because you're sitting on it.

全息影像可支撑不了你。但我喜欢墙上那幅画——它其实不需要实体存在。我认为这正是我们正在迈向的增强现实体验。而历史上我们视为VR的那些头显设备，

A hologram isn't gonna support you. But I like that art on the wall. Mean, that doesn't need to physically be there. I think that that's sort of the augmented reality experience that we're moving towards. And then we've had these headsets that historically we think about as VR.

它们提供的是完全沉浸式的体验。但现在我们正获得介于两者之间的混合形态，既能实现虚拟现实，又能体验部分增强现实功能。我认为这非常强大，既能催生让人们协同合作的新应用——比如我们俩实际在场，但有人以虚拟形象加入；或者未来版本可能是团队会议时部分人现场出席，部分人远程接入，他们基本就是以全息影像的形式虚拟参会。

And that has been something that kind of, it's like a fully immersive experience. But now we're kind of getting something that's a hybrid in between the two and capable of both, which is a headset that can do both virtual reality and some of these augmented reality experiences. And I think that that's really powerful, both because you're gonna get new applications that kind of allow people to collaborate together. Maybe the two of us are here physically, but someone joins us and it's their avatar there. Or maybe it's some version in the future, like you're having a team meeting and you have some people there physically, and you have some people dialing in and they're basically like a hologram there virtually.

此外还会有一些AI角色加入你的团队，以虚拟形象的形式围坐在会议桌旁，协助你处理各类事务。

But then you also have some AIs that personas that are on your team that are helping you do different things and they can be embodied as avatars and around the table meeting with you.

人们会进行物理分隔的初次约会吗？我能想象有些人会尝试这种'甚至不值得出门'的约会方式，等互相了解后再真正见面？

Are people going to be doing first dates that are physically separated? I could imagine that some people would, is it even worth leaving the house type date and then they find out and then they meet for the first time?

或许吧，但约会毕竟也涉及肢体接触。有些人可能——

I mean, maybe, I think, you know, dating has physical aspects to it too. Right. Some people might

不愿意这样，他们想先确认是否值得付出努力见面，对吧？他们想要跨越这种隔阂。

not be, they wanna know whether or not it's worth the effort to head out to, whether or it's, know what, is They want to breach the divide, right?

这是有可能的。我是说，我认识的一些正在约会的朋友基本上都会说，为了确保安全体验，如果是第一次约会，他们会安排时间较短的活动，可能选在白天，比如喝咖啡。这样如果不喜欢对方，就可以在安排晚餐或正式约会之前抽身离开。所以我觉得，未来人们可能会有这样的体验：你能感觉自己坐在那里，整个过程更轻松、更安全。如果体验不佳，你可以直接传送离开。

It is possible. I mean, I know like some of my friends who are dating basically say that in order to make sure that they have like a safe experience, then if they're going on a first date they'll schedule something that's shorter and maybe in the middle of the day, so maybe it's coffee. So that way if they don't like the person they can just kind of get out before going and scheduling a dinner or a real full date. So I don't know, maybe in the future people will have that experience to where you can feel like you're kind of sitting there and it's even easier and lighter weight and safer. And if you're not having a good experience you can just like teleport out of there and be on.

不过我认为，未来这将是一个有趣的问题——显然有很多事情只能在物理世界完成，或者在物理世界中体验更好。而我们正在构建的这些数字体验，却因为发展历程的奇特产物，使得数字世界和物理世界存在于完全不同的层面。我们想与数字世界互动时——虽然我们一直在这样做——但只能通过掏出小屏幕或面对大屏幕来实现。基本上，我们是通过这些屏幕与数字世界互动的。

But yeah, I think that this will be an interesting question in the future is there are clearly a lot of things that are only possible physically or are so much better physically. And then there are all these things that we're building up that can be digital experiences. But it's this weird artifact of kind of how this stuff has been developed that the digital world and the physical world exist in these completely different planes. Where you wanna interact with the digital world, well we do it all the time, but we pull out a small screen or we have a big screen. And Basically, we're interacting with the digital world through these screens.

但如果我们快进十年或更久，我认为一个真正有趣的问题是：我们将生活在怎样的世界里？我认为未来会越来越像一张物理与数字世界交织的网，让我们感觉：第一，所处的世界会丰富得多，因为人们可以创造许多在数字世界比物理世界更容易实现的东西；第二，你将真实感受到这些事物的物理存在感，而不会觉得与数字世界互动是在抽离物理世界——毕竟今天的物理世界在感官上要丰富和强大得多。我认为数字世界将嵌入其中，并在很多方面同样生动。这就是为什么我总在想，你之前说感觉自己能环顾真实房间时，其实'真实房间'和'物理房间'之间存在某种有趣的哲学区分。

But I think if we fast forward a decade or more, it's I think one of the really interesting questions about what is the world that we're gonna live in? I think it's gonna increasingly be this mesh of the physical and digital worlds that will allow us to feel, A, that the world that we're in is just a lot richer, because there can be all these things that people create that are so much easier to do digitally than physically. But at B, you're gonna have a real kind of physical sense of presence with these things and not feel like interacting in the digital world is taking you away from the physical world, which today is just so much viscerally richer and more powerful. I think the digital world will sort of be embedded in that and will feel kind of just as vivid in a lot of ways. So that's why I always think, when you were saying before you felt like you could look around and see the real room, I actually think that there's an interesting kind of philosophical distinction between the real room and the physical room.

历史上人们可能认为这两者是同一回事。但我认为未来'真实房间'将是物理世界与所有可交互的数字造物结合体，让你能感受到存在感；而'物理世界'仅指物质存在的部分。我认为有可能构建一个由两者叠加而成的'真实世界'，那将比我们现在的体验更加深刻。

Which historically I think people would have said those are the same thing. But I actually think in the future the real room is gonna be the combination of the physical world with all the digital artifacts and objects that are in there that you can interact with them and feel present. Whereas the physical world is just the part that's physically there. And I think it's possible to build a real world that's the sum of these two that will actually be a more profound experience than what we have today.

VR与物理房间之间的界面流畅度让我印象深刻。你们的团队让我尝试了一个以书本形式呈现的健身课程，基本上就像拳击打靶训练。

I was struck by the smoothness of the interface between the VR and the physical room. Your team had me try a, I guess it was an exercise class in the form of a book. It was like, essentially like hitting mitts boxing. Yeah,

超自然体验。

supernatural.

是的，而且节奏相当快。它会逐步加速，配有教程，非常容易上手，确实让我的心率飙升。我自认体形还算可以。说实话，我从未想过要做任何这类屏幕健身项目——我想不出比这更让我抗拒的事了。我不想冒犯任何特定产品，但比如一边骑固定自行车，一边盯着屏幕假装自己在户外公路上，对我来说简直糟透了。

Yeah, and it comes at a fairly fast pace. It then picks up, it's got some tutorial, it's very easy to use, and certainly got my heart rate up. I'm in at least decent shape. And I have to be honest, I've never once desired to do any of these onscreen fitness things. I mean, I can't think of anything more aversive than like, I don't want to insult any particular products, but like riding a stationary bike while looking at a screen, pretending I'm on a road outside, I can't think of anything worse for me.

也许只有

Maybe only

我确实喜欢排行榜。

I do like the leaderboard.

好吧。也许我是

Okay. Maybe I'm

就是个非常好胜的人。就像，如果你要在跑步机上跑步，至少给我个排行榜，这样我就能超越前面的人

just a very competitive person. It's like, if you're going to be running on a treadmill, at least give me a leaderboard so I can beat the people who are ahead

我喜欢户外运动，当然也喜欢健身课或有氧课（以前这么叫）。但今天尝试的体验非常吸引人。我练过足够多的拳击，至少知道怎么打几下。我真的很享受。

of me. I like moving outside and certainly an exercise class or aerobics class as they used to call them. But the experience I tried today was extremely engaging. And I've done enough boxing to at least know how to do a little bit of it. And I really enjoyed it.

它能让你心跳加速。我完全忘了自己是在进行屏幕上的体验，部分原因是我觉得自己还在那个实体房间里。

It gets your heart rate up. I completely forgot that I was doing an on screen experience because in part because I believe I was still in that physical room.

而且

And

我认为物理空间与虚拟体验的融合创造了一种既非此界亦非彼界的独特感受。说实话，我确实站在两个世界的交界处，甚至产生了临场感——那种完全忘记自己身处虚拟体验的沉浸感，让我的心率迅速飙升。我们不得不暂停因为要开始录制，但早上我本可以这样持续整整四十五分钟。真的，就算给我再多钱，我也不愿边骑车或跑步边盯着屏幕。

I think there's something about the mesh of the physical room and the virtual experience that makes it neither of one world or the other. I mean, I really felt at the interface of those and certainly got presence, this feeling of forgetting that I was in a virtual experience and got my heart rate up pretty quickly. We had to stop because we were going to start recording, but I would do that for a good forty five minutes in the morning. Yeah. There's no amount of money you could pay me truly to look at a screen while pedaling on a bike or running on a treadmill.

所以再次致敬。我认为这会非常实用，能促使人们更多地活动身体。要知道迄今为止，社交媒体和许多科技产品都被指责限制了儿童和成年人的运动量。而我们都知道运动的重要性。你既是倡导者也是实践者，确实如此。

So again, bravo. I think it's going be very useful. It's going to get people moving their bodies more, which certainly social media up until now and a lot of technologies have been accused of limiting the amount of physical activity that both children and adults are engaged in. So, and we know we need physical activity. You're a big proponent of and practitioner Yeah, of totally.

那么，让更多人动起来、提高心率这类运动指标，是Meta的主要目标吗？

Physical So, is this a major goal of meta, get people moving their bodies more and getting their heart rates up and so on?

我认为我们更倾向于提供可能性而非强制改变，这更多源于世界观层面的思考。我开发产品不是为了塑造用户行为，而是相信应该赋能人们追求自我，成为最好的自己。

I think we want to enable it and I think it's good. But I think it comes more from like a philosophical view of the world than it is necessarily. I don't go into building products to try to shape people's behavior. I believe in empowering people to do what they want and be the best version of themselves that they can be.

所以没有既定议程。

So no agenda.

不过我认为，上一代计算机只是服务于思维的设备。但我们并非培养皿里的大脑。有种哲学观点认为人的本质在于思想或价值观，但我想说：不，你既是精神的，也是具象化的存在。人类本就是高度依赖身体的物种。

That said, I do believe that the previous generation of computers were devices for your mind. And I think that we are not brains in tanks. I think that there's sort of a philosophical view of people of like, okay, you are primarily what you think about or your values or something. It's like, no, you are that and you are a physical manifestation. And people were very physical.

因此打造服务于全身而不仅是思维的计算机，完全符合我的世界观——如果你想真实地与他人共处，想获得完整体验，就不能仅靠盯着人脸开视频会议分享想法。真正的互动应该能调动整个身体。运动对我至关重要，不仅因为那些最有趣的体验都与之相关，更是我个人平衡能量、获取多元体验的核心方式。

And I think building a computer for your whole body and not just for your mind is very fitting with this worldview that the actual essence of you, if you want to be present with another person, if you want to be fully engaged and experience, is not just a video conference call that looks at your face and where you can share ideas. It's something that you can engage your whole body. So yeah, I mean I think being physical is very important to me. I mean it's just a lot of the most fun stuff that I get to do. It's a really important part of how I personally balance my energy levels and just get a diversity of experiences.

因为我本可以把所有时间都花在运营公司上。但我认为人们尝试不同事物、在不同领域竞争或学习新东西是件好事。所有这些都很好。如果有人想通过我们为Quest或未来的AR眼镜开发的功能进行高强度锻炼，那很棒。但即便你不想做剧烈运动，我认为拥有一个本质上具有物理属性的计算环境和平台，能比我们迄今为止的任何计算平台都更深刻地捕捉人类本质。

Because I could spend all my time running the company. But I think it's good for people to do some different things and compete in different areas or learn different things. All of that is good. If people wanna do really intense workouts with the work that we're doing with Quest or with eventual AR glasses, great. But even if you don't want to do like a really intense workout, I think just having a computing environment and platform, which is inherently physical, captures more of the essence of what we are as people than any of the previous computing platforms that we've had to date.

是的，我甚至在想简单的动作幅度提升训练——也就是柔韧性训练。可以想象在VR体验中，当你做标准弓步拉伸时，系统能实时显示柔韧性提升的数值指标。没错，它实际上在测量身体和关节的运动学元素。我的意思是，过去你可能需要对着摄像头做动作，然后通过屏幕查看数据或聘请昂贵教练，现在直接就能在抗阻训练中看到动作标准度。

Yeah, was even thinking just of the simple task of getting better range of motion, AKA flexibility. I could imagine inside of the VR experience, leaning into a stretch, a standard kind of like a lunge type stretch, but actually seeing a meter of like, are you approaching new levels of flexibility in that moment? Absolutely. It's actually measuring some kinesthetic elements on the body and the joints. And I mean, was just trying, whereas normally you might have to do that in front of a camera, which then would give you the data on a screen that you'd look at afterwards or hire an expensive coach, or looking at form in resistance training.

你实际举着实体哑铃，但系统会判断动作是否变形。我是说这里面有太多可能性了。然后我的思绪就开始天马行空——这很可能会彻底改变我们对运动的认知。

So you're actually lifting physical weights, but it's telling you whether or not you're breaking form. Mean, I there's just so much that could be done inside of there. Then my mind just starts to spiral into like, wow, this is very likely to transform what we think of as exercise.

是的，我也这么认为。不过仍有许多问题需要解决。大多数人应该不愿意安装大量传感器或摄像头来追踪全身动作。所以我们正逐步提升头戴设备传感器的能力，现在已能实现精准的手部追踪。我们有个研究演示项目，仅靠头显的手部追踪功能就能实现打字。

Yeah, I think so. I think there's still a bunch of questions that need to get answered. I don't think most people are going to necessarily want to install a lot of sensors or cameras to track their whole body. So we're just over time getting better from the sensors that are on the headsets of being able to do very good hand tracking. So we have this research demo where you now, just with the hand tracking from the headset, you can type.

它会在桌面上投射出虚拟键盘，人们用这个打字速度能达到每分钟100词。

It just projects a little keyboard onto your table and you can type. And people type like 100 words a minute with that.

用虚拟键盘。

With a virtual keyboard.

没错。借助现代AI技术，我们开始能模拟和理解躯干位置——尽管不总是可见，但大部分时间能捕捉到。通过融合视觉数据与加速度计的运动信息，可以推测身体姿态。不过有些难题仍然存在，对吧？

Yeah. We're starting to be able to, using some modern AI techniques, able to like simulate and understand where your torso's position is. Even though you can't always see it, you can see it a bunch of the time. And if you fuse together what you do see with like the accelerometer and understanding how the thing is moving, you can kind of understand what the body position is gonna be. But some things are still going to be hard, right?

你提到了拳击。这项运动效果不错，因为我们能识别头部位置和手部动作。现在对身体姿态的识别也在逐步完善。假设你想扩展到泰拳或自由搏击——那么腿部动作就是另一套追踪体系了。

So you mentioned boxing. That one works pretty well because we understand your head position, we understand your hands. And now we're kind of increasingly understanding your body position. Let's say you want to expand that to Muay Thai or kickboxing. Okay, so legs, that's a different part of tracking.

这会更困难，因为腿部经常超出视野范围。但还有阻力因素的问题：出拳后可以收回，进行空击训练时对身体平衡影响不大。但如果要练习回旋踢却无人陪练，常规的空击训练方式需要你完成360度转身。不过我不确定这种体验是否理想。

That's harder because that's out of the field of view more of the time. But there's also the element of resistance. So you can throw a punch and retract it and shadow box and do that without upsetting your physical balance that much. But if you want to throw a roundhouse kick and there's no one there, then the standard way that you do it when you're shadow boxing is you basically do a little three sixty. But I don't know, is that gonna feel great?

我认为关键在于如何定义这种体验标准。再进一步说，如果想实现格斗训练，我甚至不确定在没有真实受力反馈的情况下该如何模拟。这就涉及到可能需要配备能提供触觉反馈的体感服——但即便是高级触觉系统，恐怕也难以完全模拟真实格斗中的受力情况。不过这正是技术的乐趣所在：不断获得新功能后，还要探索如何运用它们。

I think there's a question about what that experience should be. And then if you want to go even further, if you want to get grappling to to work, I'm I'm not even sure how you would do that without having resistance of understanding what the forces applied to you would be. And just then you get into, okay, maybe you're gonna have some kind of body suit that can apply, you know, haptics. But I'm not even sure that even a pretty advanced haptic system is gonna be able to be quite good enough to simulate the actual forces that would be applied to you in a grappling scenario. So this is part of what's fun about technology though, is you keep on getting new capabilities, and then you need to figure out what things you can do with them.

我觉得目前能实现拳击训练和超自然体验已经很棒了，还有各种精彩的有氧舞蹈课程等等。但未来仍有大量发展空间，这让我非常期待——当然，这是个漫长的过程。

So I think it's really neat that we can kind of do boxing, and we can do the supernatural thing. And there's a bunch of awesome cardio and dancing and things like that. And then there's also still so much more to do that I'm excited to kind of get to over time. But it's a long journey.

那绘画、艺术和音乐这类创作呢？不同媒介各有特点：我个人喜欢用钢笔铅笔素描，但也能想象通过虚拟方式学习绘画——最终作品还是可以实体打印出来的。

And what about things like painting and art and music? Yeah. You know, I imagine, you know, of course, like different mediums. Like I like to draw with pen and pencil, but I could imagine trying to learn how to paint virtually. And of course you could print out a physical version of that at the end.

这不必脱离现实世界，完全能以实体形式呈现。

This doesn't have to depart from the physical world. It could end in the physical Did

你看过那个钢琴演示吗？无论是用实体键盘还是虚拟键盘，应用会高亮显示需要按下的琴键来教你演奏选定曲目——就像看着钢琴实时学习弹奏一样。

you see the demo, piano demo where either you're there with a physical keyboard or it could be a virtual keyboard, but the app basically highlights what keys you need to press in order to play the song. So it's basically like you're looking at your piano and it's teaching you how to play a song that you choose.

一架真实的钢琴。对。对。但它是在虚拟空间里点亮特定的琴键。

An actual piano. Yeah. Yeah. But it's illuminating certain keys in the virtual space.

没错。如果你没有钢琴或键盘，它既可以是虚拟钢琴也可以是虚拟键盘。或者它可以使用你实际的键盘。所以我认为这类东西对教育和表达会非常有趣。

Yeah. And it could either be a virtual piano or keyboard if you don't have a piano or keyboard. Or it could use your actual keyboard. So yeah, I think stuff like that is gonna be really fascinating for education and expression.

而且抱歉，对于扩大昂贵设备的获取渠道来说。我是说，钢琴可不是小开支。确实。它占地方还需要调音。你可以想象所有这些——那些收入微薄的孩子或家庭可以用低得多的成本学习弹奏虚拟钢琴。

And for broad excuse me, and for broadening access to expensive equipment. Mean, piano is no small expense. Exactly. And it takes up a lot of space and needs to be tuned. You can think of all these things like the kid that has very little income or their family has very little income could learn to play a virtual piano at much lower cost.

完全同意。这回到我之前提出的思想实验：我们今天拥有的实体物品中有多少真正需要是实体的？钢琴就不需要。也许存在某种溢价——实体钢琴可能触感更好。但对那些没空间、买不起或不确定是否值得在初学阶段投资的人来说...

Totally. Yeah, and it gets back to the question I was asking before about this thought experiment of how many of the things that we physically have today actually need to be physical. The piano doesn't. Maybe there's some premium where maybe it's a somewhat better, more tactile experience to have a physical one. But for people who don't have the space for it, or who can't afford to buy a piano, or just aren't sure that they would wanna make that investment at the beginning of learning how to play piano.

我认为未来你会可以选择只买个应用或全息钢琴，那会便宜得多。而且我认为这将释放大量创造力。因为钢琴制造市场不再局限于少数精通工艺的专家，全球的孩子或开发者都能设计出前所未见的键盘钢琴，在减少物理限制的世界里带来更多快乐。

I think in the future you'll have the option of just buying an app or a hologram piano, which will be a lot more affordable. And I think that's gonna unlock a ton of creativity too. Because instead of the market for piano makers being constrained to a relatively small set of experts who have perfected that craft, then you're gonna have kids or developers all around the world designing crazy designs for potential keyboards and pianos that look nothing like what we've seen before, but maybe bring even more joy and are even more fun in the world where you have fewer of these physical constraints. So I think there's gonna be a lot of wild stuff to explore.

肯定会有很多疯狂的东西可探索。我刚想到你所说的和我们早先与普莉希拉谈话的结合——可以想象不久的将来，人们用混合现实在实验室做实验，虚拟混合溶液获得可能结果，然后选择最优方案在现实世界执行，这能节省大量资金和时间成本。

There's definitely gonna be a lot of wild stuff to explore. I just had this ideaimage in my mind of what you were talking about merged with our earlier conversation when Priscilla was here of, I could imagine a time not too long from now where you're using mixed reality to run experiments in the lab, literally mixing virtual solutions, getting potential outcomes, then picking the best one to then go actually do in the real world, which is very both financially costly and time wise costly.

是啊，人们已经在用VR进行手术教学了。有项研究对比了传统教材授课和用放大可操作的膝盖模型让学员练习切口的两组人，后者表现更好。所以我认为这将对很多领域产生深远影响。

Yeah, I mean, people are already using VR for surgery and education on it. There's some study that was done that basically tried to do a controlled experiment of people who learned how to do a specific surgery through just a normal kind of textbook and lecture method. Versus like you show the knee and you have it be a large blown up model and people can manipulate it and kind of practice where they would make the cuts. And the people in that class did better. So I think that there's, yeah, I think that it's gonna be profound for a lot of different areas.

最后想到的一个例子是，我认为社交媒体和网络文化常被指责在现实中——我们称之为物理世界——给人们制造了大量社交焦虑。但我可以想象，通过虚拟互动逐步练习社交技巧，比如一个有严重社交焦虑或需要更好自我表达的孩子，先在这种环境中学习，再应用到现实世界。因为根据我最近的体验，虚拟与现实已如此交融，那些害怕为自己发声、害怕与人交谈、害怕面对满屋子陌生孩子的孩子，完全可以先在虚拟环境中适应，让神经系统稍作缓冲，再将其带入所谓的物理世界。

And the last example that leaps to mind, you know, I think social media and online culture has been accused of creating a lot of real world, let's call it physical world social anxiety for people. But I could imagine practicing a social interaction, or a kid that has a lot of social anxiety, or that needs to advocate for themselves better, learning how to do that progressively through a virtual interaction, and then taking that to the real world. Because it's, in my very recent experience today, it's so blended now with real experience that the kid that feels terrified of advocating for themselves or just talking to another human being or an adult or being in a new circumstance of a room full of kids, you could really experience that in silico first get comfortable, let the nervous system attenuate a bit, and then take it into the quote unquote physical world.

是的，我认为我们会看到这类体验。同时，这种数字与现实交融的社交互动方式也会在其他方面呈现出更微妙的变化。就像现在的青少年需要应对我们童年时没有的短信社交压力一样，未来肯定也会出现新的焦虑形式。虽然新技术能解决某些问题，但必然也会带来需要人们克服的新挑战。

Yeah, I think we'll see experiences like that. I mean, I also think that some of the social dynamics around how people interact in this kind of blended digital world will be more nuanced in other ways. So I'm sure that there will be kind of new anxieties that people develop to just like teens today need to navigate dynamics around texting constantly that we just didn't have when we were kids. So I think it will help with some things. I think that there will be new issues that hopefully we can help people work through too.

但总体而言，我认为它将会产生非常强大而积极的影响。

But overall, I think, yeah, no, I think it's going to be really powerful and positive.

我们来聊聊那副眼镜吧。

Let's talk about the glasses.

当然。

Sure.

这太疯狂了。

This was wild.

确实。

Yeah.

我戴上一副雷朋眼镜。我喜欢它们的外观。镜片透明，看起来和其他眼镜没什么两样，但特别的是我能直接对眼镜说话。比如只要说‘嘿，Meta，我想听巴赫变奏曲，戈德堡变奏曲’。

I put on a pair of Ray Bans. I like the way they look. They're clear. They look like any other glass, Ray Ban glasses, except that I could call out to the glasses. I could just say, you know, Hey, Meta, I want to listen to the Bach variations, the Goldberg variations of Bach.

Meta回应了，周围没人能听见，但我却能听得异常清晰。

And Meta responded, and no one around me could hear, but I could hear with exquisite clarity.

顺便

And by

声明一下，说这些没人付钱给我，但我真的被震撼到了。我太想要一副这样的眼镜了。我能听到‘好的，现在为您选择那首音乐’，背景音乐响起的同时还能正常对话。这既不是戴耳机也不是摘耳机的状态。

the way, I'm not getting paid to say any of this, I'm just still blown away by this, folks. I want a pair of these very badly. I could hear, okay, I'm selecting those now and or that music now, and then I could hear it in the background, but then I could still have a conversation. So this was neither headphones in nor headphones out.

而且

And

我只要说‘等等，暂停音乐’它就会暂停。最棒的是我完全不用分心，甚至不用掏手机。所有交互都通过头部周围这个微型空间完成。作为神经科学家，我对此着迷——毕竟我们所有的听觉、视觉等感知都发生在这个叫颅骨的容器里。

I could say, wait, pause the music and it would pause. And the best part was I didn't have to leave the room mentally. I even had to take out a phone. It was all interfaced through this very local environment in and around the head. And as a neuroscientist, I'm fascinated by this because of course all of our perceptions, auditory, visual, etcetera, all occurring inside the casing of this thing we call a skull.

或许你可以谈谈这个设计的灵感来源？背后的理念是什么？未来可能如何发展？因为我肯定只触及了皮毛。

But maybe you could comment on, you know, the origin of that design for you, you know, what the ideas behind that and where you think it could go, because I'm sure I'm just scratching the surface.

我们最终想要实现的真正产品，是这种采用时尚舒适普通眼镜形态的完整增强现实产品。

The real product that we want to eventually get to is this kind of full augmented reality product in a kind of stylish and comfortable normal glasses form factor.

说白了就是不要那种笨重的VR头显。因为VR头戴设备确实会让人感觉脸上有东西。

Not Dorky VR headset, so to speak. Mean because the VR headset does feel kinda like It will, but there's thing on the face.

VR设备也会有它的应用场景，就像你有笔记本电脑和工作站一样。或许更贴切的类比是手机和工作站的关系。这些AR眼镜将如同手机般——你会戴着它度过大半天时间，并频繁与之互动。我不认为人们会整天戴着VR头显到处走。

There's gonna be a place for that too, just like you have your laptop and you have your workstation. Or maybe the better analogy is you have your phone and you have your workstation. These AR glasses are gonna be like your phone in that you have something on your face and you will, I think, be able to, if you want, wear it for a lot of the day and interact with it very frequently. I don't think that people are gonna be walking around the world wearing VR headsets.

让我们

Let's

希望如此。但这确实不是我期待的未来。不过我认为由于更大的设备形态能提供更强算力，就像工作站比手机性能更强一样，VR设备有其存在价值。比如医生进行手术时，你会希望他们通过头显而非手机或低性能眼镜来完成操作。

hope. But yeah, that's certainly not the future that I'm kind of hoping we get to. But I do think that there is a place where for having, because it's a bigger form factor, it has more compute power. So just like your workstation or your kind of bigger computer can do more than your phone can do, there's a place for that. When you want to settle into an intense task, if you have a doctor who's doing a surgery, would want them doing it through the headset, not through their phone equivalent or just kind of lower powered glasses.

就像手机已足够强大能处理许多任务一样，我认为眼镜最终也会达到这种程度。但要实现能在现实世界投射完整全息影像的目标，还需要解决一系列艰巨的技术难题——本质上是要将超级计算机微型化并塞进一副看起来依然时尚普通的眼镜里，这确实非常困难。

But just like phones are powerful enough to do a lot of things, I think the glasses will eventually get there too. Now that said, there's a bunch of really hard technology problems to address in order to be able to get to this point where you can like put kind of full holograms in the world. You're basically miniaturizing a supercomputer and putting it into a pair of glasses so that the pair of glasses still looks stylish and normal. And that's a really hard technology problem. Making things small is really hard.

全息显示技术与过去三四十年我们行业优化的屏幕技术完全不同。手机、电视、电脑以及越来越多带屏幕的设备都有一套成熟的工业化生产流程，而全息显示则是完全不同的领域——因为它根本不是屏幕，对吧？

A holographic display is different from what our industry has optimized for for thirty or forty years now building screens. There's like a whole kind of industrial process around that that goes into phones and TVs and computers and increasingly so many things that have different screens. There's a whole pipeline that's gotten very good at making that kind of screen. And the holographic displays are just a completely different thing, right? Because it's not a screen, right?

这是一种你可以通过激光或其他类型的投影仪将光线投射进去的装置，它能将光线作为物体呈现在现实世界中。因此，这需要建立一整套全新的工业流程来实现高效运作。综上所述，我们目前正同时采取两种不同的开发路径：一是始终牢记长远目标——这个目标并不遥远，我认为几年内就能实现我所描述的完整愿景的初代版本。

It's a thing that you can shoot light into through a laser or some other kind of projector, and it can place that as an object in the world. So that's gonna need to be this whole other industrial process that gets built up to doing that in an efficient way. So all that said, we're basically taking two different approaches towards building this at once. One is we are trying to keep in mind what is the long term thing that, it's not super far off. Think within few years I think we'll have something that's sort of a first version of kind of this full vision that I'm talking about.

我们内部已有一套作为开发工具使用的原型系统。但那个系统面临巨大挑战：成本更高，且整合所有组件难度更大。另一种策略则是从当下入手——先专注于打造一副如今技术可实现的时尚智能太阳镜，尽可能提升其智能化程度。

And we have something that's working internally that we use as a dev kit. But that one, that's kind of a big challenge. It's gonna be more expensive. And it's harder to get all the pieces working. The other approach has been, all right, let's start with what we know we can put into a pair of stylish sunglasses today and just make them as smart as we can.

因此在初代产品上，我们与雷朋展开了合作。因为雷朋眼镜广受认可，设计经典，人们已使用数十年之久。

So for the first version, we with, we did this collaboration with Ray Ban, right? Because that's like well accepted. These are well designed glasses. They're classic. People have used them for decades.

初代版本我们在镜框前方安装了传感器，这样无需掏出手机就能随时捕捉瞬间——可以拍摄照片视频，配备扬声器和麦克风实现音乐播放与通讯功能。这就是最初的版本形态。

For the first version we got a sensor on the front so you could capture moments without having to take your phone out of your pocket. So you got photos and videos. You had the speaker and the microphone, so you can listen to music. You could communicate with it. But it was That sort of the first version of it.

虽然具备了基础功能，但通过观察用户使用习惯我们进行了优化：新版相机性能提升了两倍，针对用户实际使用场景（如听音乐、接听电话、收听播客等）大幅优化了音频清晰度。但最令人兴奋的是实现了AI运行能力——虽然部分运算仍需通过手机代理处理。

We had a lot of the basics there, but we saw how people used it and we tuned it. We made the The camera is like twice as good for this new version that we made. The audio is a lot crisper for the use cases that we saw that people actually used, is some of it is listening to music, but a lot of it is like people wanna take calls on their glasses. They wanna listen to podcasts, right? But the biggest thing that I think is interesting is the ability to get AI running on it, which it doesn't just run on glasses, also proxies through your phone.

随着大语言模型的进步（我们在对话前半段讨论过），能够随时通过语音与Meta AI助手交流咨询任何问题，这将会非常惊艳。正如你所说人类感知世界的方式，最终你会希望AI助手能同步你的视听体验——未必全程开启，但需要时可随时激活这种模式。什么样的设备设计最适合让AI助手实现这种功能？答案显然是智能眼镜。

But with all the advances in LLMs, we talked about this a bit in the first part of the conversation, Having the ability to have your meta AI assistant that you can just talk to and basically ask any question throughout the day is, I think it'd be really fascinating. And like you were saying about kind of how we process the world as people, eventually I think you're gonna want your AI assistant to be able to see what you see and hear what you hear. Maybe not all the time, but you're gonna wanna be able to tell it to go into a mode where it can see what you see and hear what you hear. And what's the kind of device design that best kind of positions an AI assistant to be able to see what you see and hear what you hear so it can best help you? Well, that's glasses, right?

它本质上配备能同步你视野的传感器和贴近耳部的麦克风。另一个设计目标如你所言是保持用户对现实世界的感知——手机的问题在于会将人从物理环境中抽离，而下一代计算设备绝不会重蹈覆辙。

Where it basically has a sensor to be able to see what you see and a microphone that is close to your ears that can hear what you hear. The other design goals is like you said, to keep you present in the world, right? So I think one of the issues with phones is they kind of pull you away from what's physically happening around you. I don't think that the next generation of computing will do that.

我暗自好笑，因为我有个朋友是知名摄影师，他常嘲笑人们去音乐会时都用手机拍摄，就为了能发个动态，但实际上已有数百万人发布了完全相同的内容。但不知怎的，我们总觉得必须用智能眼镜记录独特体验——这种设备能彻底消除视角差异。

I'm chuckling to myself because I have a friend, he's a very well known photographer, and he was laughing about how people go to a concert, and everyone's filming the concert on their phone so that they can be the person that posts the thing, but there are literally millions of other people who have posted the exact same thing. But somehow our unique It feels important to post our unique experience with glasses that would essentially smooth that gap completely.

是啊，完全同意。你可以

Yeah, totally. You could

先别管这些，稍后再下载。我意识到眼镜存在隐私问题，因为它们与日常生活无缝衔接——尽管你我此刻都没戴。人们戴眼镜太普遍了。关于录制和同意的问题确实存在。比如我走进健身房更衣室时...

just worry about it later, download There are issues I realize with glasses because they are so seamless with everyday experience, even though you and I aren't wearing them now. It's very common for people to wear glasses. Issues of recording and consent. Yeah. Like, if I go into locker room at my gym.

这正是我们要面对

That's where we have a

我假设戴眼镜的人不会偷拍。而当下，当房间里出现手机镜头时会有明显界限，人们通常会禁止在更衣室使用手机和拍摄。这只是其中一个例子。

I'm assuming that the people with glasses aren't filming. Whereas when right now, because there's a a sharp transition when when there's a phone in the room and someone's pointing it, people generally say no phones in locker rooms and recording. So that's just one instance.