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当时刻需要凶猛时，优秀的米尔安人就是杀手，他们就是如此。
When the moment calls for fierceness, a good is a killer, and they they are.
他们是战士。
They're warriors.
他们会杀了你。
They'll kill you.
别惹他们。
Don't cross them.
当时刻需要温柔时，优秀的米尔安人会放下剑与盾，像婴儿一样温柔。
When the moment calls for tenderness, a good Mirani will lay down his sword and shield and be sweet like a baby.
让一个伟大的米尔安人脱颖而出的，是知道每个时刻该对应哪种态度。
What makes a great Mirani is knowing which moment is which.
欢迎收听胡伯曼实验室播客，我们将讨论科学及基于科学的日常生活工具。
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
今天的嘉宾是特里·里尔。
My guest today is Terri Reel.
特里·里尔是一位治疗师，被公认为男性心理学以及男女浪漫关系中动态互动的世界顶尖专家之一。
Terri Reel is a therapist and considered one of the world's foremost experts on male psychology and on male female dynamics in romantic relationships.
今天，我们探讨成为男人的意义，以及男性当前面临的心理健康危机。
Today, we discuss what it means to be a man and the mental health crisis that men are facing nowadays.
正如你可能听说的，男性目前的抑郁和自杀率达到了历史最高水平。
As you may have heard rates of depression and suicide are at an all time high in men right now.
越来越少的男性处于浪漫关系中，许多人甚至没有一个亲密的朋友。
Fewer and fewer men are in romantic relationships and many don't even have a single close friend.
而对于那些处于浪漫关系中的男性来说，关于如何在关系中表现自己的公众信息却非常矛盾。
And for those that are in romantic relationships, the public messaging about how to show up in those relationships is very conflicted.
今天，我们将直面所有这些问题。
Today, we address all of these issues head on.
特里解释说，男性要想在生活中茁壮成长，就必须把建立关系视为一种需要行动的技能——这当然包括情感，但也需要以特定方式处理和表达这些情感，有时甚至完全不表达。
Terry explains that to thrive in life, men have to look at relating as a skill that requires action and yes, feelings, but also processing and communicating those feelings in a specific way and sometimes not communicating them at all.
我们还讨论了兄弟情谊的至关重要性——这里并不是指大学里的兄弟会，而是找到并归属于一群你可以信任、一起享受时光、能给你诚实反馈并对你负责的男性群体。
We also discussed the critical importance of fraternity, not necessarily college fraternities, but finding and belonging to a group of men that you can trust, that you can enjoy time with, that give you honest feedback and that hold you accountable.
我非常欣赏特里·里尔的一点是，他愿意直接回答关于男女关系的难题。
What I appreciate so much about Terry Reel is that he's willing to answer the hard questions about men and women very directly.
坦率地说，大多数治疗师并不愿意公开这样做。
And frankly, most therapists are not willing to do that publicly.
例如，他在与大量伴侣的工作中指出，女性和男性在关系中同样糟糕，但表现方式不同。
For example, he explains that in his extensive work with couples, women and men are equally bad at relationships, but in different ways.
如果他们真的希望关系能够茁壮成长，他为双方都提供了切实可行的解决方案。
And he offers solutions for them both if they actually want their relationship to thrive.
由于他的坦诚和提供的实用工具，特里·里尔今天为我们提供了适用于所有年龄段男女的重要信息。
Thanks to his honesty and providing practical tools, Terry Real provides us today with essential information for men and women of all ages.
这些信息超越了世代之间确实存在的差异，突出了男性在工作、学业和浪漫关系中建立和支持心理健康的实用方法。
It cuts through all the generational differences that certainly exist to highlight the practical ways that men can build and support their mental health and thrive at work, school, and in romantic relationships.
同样重要的是，也关乎他们与自我的关系。
And also just as importantly in their relationship to themselves.
这就是男性如何建立强大的自我概念、能动性和自信的方式。
That is how men can build a strong self-concept, sense of agency, and confidence.
在开始之前，我想强调，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究工作无关。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
然而，它确实是我致力于向公众免费提供科学及科学相关工具信息的一部分努力。
It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.
秉承这一宗旨，今天的节目包含赞助商内容。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
现在，让我们开始与特里·瑞尔的对话。
And now for my discussion with Terry Real.
特里·瑞尔，欢迎你。
Terry Real, welcome.
很高兴能来到这里。
It's a pleasure to be here.
谢谢。
Thank you.
男人现在怎么了？
What's going on with men?
这是心理健康问题吗？
This mental health?
男性危机，自杀率急剧上升。
Men's crisis, suicide rates are way, way up.
到底发生了什么？
What's going on?
发生的是，旧有的角色已经发生了变化。
What's going on is that the old role is shifted.
我们脚下的沙子在流动，我们正试图弄清楚自己到底是谁。
The sand is shifted under our feet, and we're trying to figure out what the hell we are.
如果我们不再像我们的父亲和祖父那样，那我们该成为什么？
And if we're not gonna be what our dads and granddads were, what are we gonna be?
我们正在寻找，正在挣扎。
And we're searching, and we're grappling.
我得告诉你，另一件正在发生的事是，有人对女权主义做出反应，有人曾评价我的工作说：女性已经经历了一场革命，现在轮到男性来应对了。
I gotta tell you, the other thing that's going on is someone in reaction to feminism and you know, somebody said about my work, women have had a revolution, and now men have to deal with it.
那我们到底该怎么做呢？
It's like, what are we supposed to do here?
而且已经出现了一种反弹。
And there's been a backlash.
在我国以及全球范围内，出现了一种对传统男性气质中一些最艰难、最不吸引人特质的近乎庆祝的复兴。
There's been a resurgence in our country and around the globe of almost a celebration of some of the most difficult, unattractive aspects of traditional masculinity.
我们不再确定做一名男性意味着什么，尤其是年轻男性正在苦苦挣扎。
And we're not sure what it means to be a man anymore, and particularly young guys are are grappling.
但也有很多健康的榜样在说：好吧。
And there are a lot of healthy examples saying, okay.
这是新的领域。
Here's the new territory.
让我来告诉你它是什么样子。
Let me let me show you what it looks like.
我看到的对‘我们究竟该怎么做’这一困惑的最大反应是倒退的。
The biggest response that I see to the confusion about what are we supposed to do here has been regressive.
让我们回到强大、主导、有特权、好斗的状态吧。
Let's go back to being powerful, dominant, entitled, aggressive.
你在顶层就能看到这种现象。
And you see this at the top.
你在政治中也能看到这种现象，不仅在我们国家，而是在全球各地。
You see this in politics, not just in our country, but all over the globe.
专制统治被颂扬。
Autocracy dominance is celebrated.
我们厌倦了所谓的‘觉醒文化’。
And it's like we're tired of the woke.
我们厌倦了被告诉我们是坏的。
We're tired of being told that we're bad.
我成长于六十年代，那是女权主义的巅峰时期，我自认为是一位女权主义家庭治疗师。
I grew up in the sixties in the height of feminists, and I consider myself a feminist family therapist.
你那时候留长发吗？
Did you have long hair
在六十年代？
in the sixties?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
还有胡子，全套造型。
And a mustache and the whole thing.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我确实留了。
I did.
还吸了很多毒品。
And a lot of drugs.
但当我长大后，流行的笑话是，你知道的，那种哲学性的。
And but when I grew up, the the joke was, you know, the philosophical.
如果一棵树在森林里倒下，而没人听到，它还会发出声音吗？
If a tree falls in the woods and no one's there, does this still make a sound?
我长大后，问题是：如果一个男人在森林里说话，而没人在那里，他还是错的吗？
When I grew up, it was if a man speaks in the woods and there's no one there, is he still wrong?
那是第一次浪潮，没错。
That was the the first surge of Yeah.
早期的女权主义。
Early major feminism.
是的。
Yeah.
早期的女权主义是充满愤怒的。
Well, early stage feminism was angry.
我很自豪地告诉我的朋友们和同事们，那些站在女权主义前沿的人，比如佩雷尔先生、卡罗尔·吉利根，都是热爱男性的女权主义者。
I am proud to say my dear friends and colleagues who are in the forefront of feminism, mister Perrell, Carol Gilligan, are man loving feminists.
但那并不是第一波。
But that's that wasn't the first wave.
这实际上是女性对男性特权和压迫的一种可以理解的反应。
It was really a understandable reaction to the entitlement and the oppression of women.
但我称之为政治上的父权制，它确实存在。
But I call that political patriarchy, and it exists.
看。
Look.
你只要走出美国，就会很清楚。
You step out of America, and it's pretty clear.
全世界的女性都受到男性的压迫。
Women are oppressed by men all over the globe.
这是真的。
That's true.
但作为一名心理学家，我感兴趣的是我所说的心理上的父权制，即父权制的内在机制。
But what I, as a psychologist, what I'm interested in is what I call psychological patriarchy, the dynamics of patriarchy.
这种现象可能发生在两个男人之间、两个女人之间、母亲和孩子之间，甚至两个种族之间。
And that can take place between two men, between two women, between a mother and a child, between two races.
而父权制的心理机制就像一件紧身衣，我认为它对所有人都有害。
And the psychology of patriarchy is a straight jacket that is, I believe, toxic for everybody.
当然，传统男性气质也有一些积极的特质。
Now, look, there there are some positive traits to traditional masculinity.
这并不是非黑即白的，但其中很多确实很不健康。
It's not completely black and white, but a lot of it is really unhealthy.
因此，很多男性在被告诉‘你错了’时做出了反应。
So a lot of guys reacted to being told, you're wrong.
你错了。
You're wrong.
你错了，于是他们说：嘿。
You're wrong by, hey.
我要挣脱这些枷锁。
I'm throwing off the shackles.
我想干嘛就干嘛。
I'll do what the hell I want.
这是一种对旧有自由和旧有特权的庆祝，但这并不是出路。
And a kind of celebration of the old freedoms and the old entitlements, but that ain't the way out.
尽管我们现在看到这种回潮，但它并不能造就快乐的人。
And even though we see this resurgence right now, that does not breed a happy human being.
所以我们需要的是进步的男性气质模型，而不是倒退的男性气质模型，而这样的模型很少见。
So we need models of progressive masculinity, not regressive masculinity, and they're rare.
现在，成为男人的模板是不是比以前更多了？
Is it possible that now there are more templates of what it is to be a man than there were before?
我的意思是，在我看来，以我这种简单、没有受过正式教育的视角（除了成长经历）
I mean, in my mind, in my very simple minded, not formally educated about this topic, except having grown up
是啊，你是个男人。
Yeah, you are a a guy.
没错。
Yep.
我的意思是我唯一拥有的经验就是这个，对吧？
I mean, that's the only experience I have, right?
所以所有事情都经过我自身的经验过滤，尽我所能试图跳出这种框架——这就是我开始的地方，也是我最终会回到的地方。
So everything's filtered through my own experience as best as I can try and get outside of having, this is where I started and where I'll end up.
我接触到的模式是，四十年代和五十年代，男性看起来和行为方式都某种特定的样子。
The model that I was exposed to was, in the forties and fifties, men looked and acted a certain way.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那是一种相当狭窄的模板。
And there it was a fairly narrow template.
非常狭窄。
Very narrow.
相当狭窄的模板。
Pretty narrow template.
而且在某些方面相当不近人情。
And pretty inhuman in some ways.
传统男子气概的本质——这种本质并未在五十年代终结，至今依然深深存在——就是坚忍。
The essence of traditional masculinity, which didn't end in the fifties, it's still with us very much today, is stoicism.
成为男人的本质就是无所畏惧。
The essence of being a man is being invulnerable.
你越无所畏惧，就越有男子气概；你越脆弱，到今天就被视为越像女孩。
The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are, the more vulnerable you are, the more girly you are to this day.
而像女孩并不是一件好事。
And being girly is not a good thing.
但这种观念存在一些问题。
Well, there's some problems with that.
其中一个问题是，我们本质上就是脆弱的。
One is we are vulnerable.
作为人类，这种说法是谎言。
As human beings, that's a lie.
否认我们的脆弱，是一种谎言。
Denying our vulnerability is a lie.
所以我看到的是慢性焦虑和抑郁。
And so I see chronic anxiety, depression.
每个人都处于一种自我怀疑的状态：我够格吗？
Everybody's in a state of, do I measure up?
而你不够格，因为你试图比照的标准并不真实。
And you don't because what you're trying to measure up to isn't real.
我对男性们说，试图逃避自己的脆弱，就像试图甩掉自己的直肠。
You know, I say to guys, trying to to run away from your own vulnerability is like trying to outrun your rectum.
它会一直跟着你，无论你去哪里。
It has a way of following you everywhere you go.
我们都是脆弱的。
We are vulnerable.
而传统 Stoicism 模型的另一个问题是，我们通过脆弱彼此连接。
And the other issue with that traditional model of stoicism is we connect to each other through vulnerability.
人类正是通过脆弱建立联系，而男性却被隔绝了。
That's how human beings connect, and men are walled off.
我们面临的一个问题是异性关系中的问题。
And one of the issues facing us is in hetero relationships.
西方的女性正要求我们男性提供情感连接、开放的心灵和亲密感，而这些特质在我们男孩时期就被彻底抹杀了。
Women across the West are insisting on levels of emotional connection and open heartedness and intimacy from their from us guys that literally were stamped out of us as boys.
你知道，在这种文化中，传统上将男孩塑造为男人的方式就是通过情感疏离。
You know, the way we turn boys into men traditionally in this culture is through disconnection.
你与自己的情感疏离。
You disconnect from your feelings.
你与脆弱性疏离。
You disconnect from vulnerability.
你与他人疏离。
You disconnect from others.
你与母亲疏离。
You disconnect from your mother.
我们把这一切都称为独立自主。
We call all this becoming autonomous.
嗯，这种追求自主性的说法与真正的心理学毫无关系。
Well, this whole story of achieving autonomy has nothing to do with real psychology.
这根本没有任何依据。
There's no basis for it at all.
这只不过是父权制罢了。
It's just patriarchy.
比如，那个不愿回答母亲的单音节青少年男孩，这并不正常。
So, like, for example, the monosyllabic adolescent boy who won't answer his mother, that's not normal.
我们却认为这是正常的。
We think of it as normal.
但这并不是心理上的必然要求。
But that's not psychologically necessary.
这是传统男性气质的强制要求。
It is a mandate of traditional masculinity.
我要告诉你们，传统男性气质是有害的。
And I'm here to tell you that traditional masculinity is harmful.
我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商BetterHelp。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp.
BetterHelp提供由持证治疗师进行的全程在线心理治疗。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
我长期接受心理治疗，可以告诉你，在很多方面，它就像一次身体锻炼。
Now I've been doing therapy for a long time and I can tell you that in many ways, it's like a physical workout.
有时候我想去做治疗，有时候又不想去做。
There are days when I want to do it and there are days when I don't want to do it.
但每次治疗结束后，我都会感觉更好，并且觉得这段时间花得非常值得。
But whenever I finish a therapy session, every single time I come away feeling better and knowing that the time was well spent.
而且大多数情况下，当我结束一次治疗后，我会获得一些宝贵的洞见，有时甚至是多个洞见或新的视角，帮助我应对工作、人际关系，或与自我的关系中的问题。
And more often than not, when I finish a therapy session, I come away with some valuable insight or some cases, many insights or new perspectives on something that I'm working through, whether it's with work, with relationships, or with my relationship to myself.
进行有效的心理治疗能带来巨大的益处。
There is just so much benefit that comes through doing effective therapy.
而通过BetterHelp，他们让你极其轻松地找到一位能够提供有效治疗益处的专家治疗师。
And with BetterHelp, they make it extremely easy to find an expert therapist that can help provide those benefits that come through effective therapy.
而且因为BetterHelp完全在线进行，所以非常节省时间。
Also because BetterHelp is done entirely online, it's very time efficient.
不需要开车去治疗师的办公室，也不用找停车位之类的。
There's no driving to a therapist's office looking for parking or anything like that.
你只需登录并进行你的疗程。
You just log on and hold your session.
如果你想尝试BetterHelp，请访问betterhelp.com/huberman，享受首月10%的折扣。
If you would like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
再次提醒，网址是betterhelp.com/huberman。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
今天的节目还由David赞助。
Today's episode is also brought to us by David.
David制作的蛋白棒与众不同。
David makes a protein bar unlike any other.
它含有28克蛋白质，仅150卡路里，且不含糖。
It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories and zero grams of sugar.
没错，28克蛋白质，其中75%的热量来自蛋白质。
That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.
这比紧随其后的其他蛋白棒高出50%。
That's 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.
大卫的这些蛋白棒味道也绝佳。
These bars from David also tastes amazing.
目前，我最喜欢的口味是新推出的肉桂卷味，但我也很喜欢巧克力豆饼干面团味，还有咸花生酱味。
Right now, my favorite flavor is the new cinnamon roll flavor, but I also like the chocolate chip cookie dough flavor, and I also like the salted peanut butter flavor.
basically，我喜欢所有口味，都很好吃。
Basically, I like all the flavors, they're all delicious.
还有个大消息，大卫蛋白棒现在重新补货了。
Also big news, David bars are now back in stock.
它们曾因太受欢迎而断货数月，但现在已重新上架。
They were sold out for several months because they are that popular, but they are now back in stock.
通过吃一根大卫蛋白棒，我能在一份零食的热量内获得28克蛋白质，这让我很容易实现每天每磅体重摄入一克蛋白质的目标，而且无需摄入过多热量。
By eating a David bar, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it very easy for me to meet my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and to do so without eating excess calories.
我通常在下午吃一根David蛋白棒，出门或旅行时也总是随身携带，因为它们能非常方便地帮助我摄入足够的蛋白质。
I generally eat a David bar most afternoons, and I always keep them with me when I'm away from home or traveling because they're incredibly convenient to get enough protein.
正如我提到的，它们非常美味。
As I mentioned, they're incredibly delicious.
考虑到含有28克蛋白质，仅150卡路里的热量就让人相当有饱腹感。
And given that 28 grams of protein, they're pretty filling for just 150 calories.
因此，它们在两餐之间食用也非常棒。
So they're great between meals as well.
如果你想尝试David蛋白棒，可以访问davidprotein.com/huberman。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
再次提醒，网址是davidprotein.com/huberman。
Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman.
让我问问你关于这个模式的事。
Let me ask you about this template.
比如，20世纪40年代到60年代的那种模式，对吧？
Like, so there's the 1940s went into the sixties somewhat template, right?
正如史蒂夫·乔布斯精辟地指出的，六十年代的真正爆发是在七十年代，长发、胡子，大部分都是七十年代的特征。
As Steve Jobs so aptly said, the sixties really happened in the seventies, the long hair, the mustaches, most of that was in seventies.
其中一些出现在六十年代，但大部分还是在七十年代。
Some of it was in the sixties, but most of it was in the seventies.
对。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
所以还有那种非常坚忍的模式。
So there's that very stoic template.
对。
Right.
提供者、保护者、坚忍。
Provider protector, stoic.
没有感情。
No feelings.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
逻辑。
Logic.
实际上，我稍微研究了一下这段历史，这挺有意思的。
And it's actually interesting to I have looked a little bit of the history of this.
曾经甚至有图表说明，男性绝不能双手叉腰，因为那是女性化的姿态，绝不能将一侧臀部倾斜。
There were even diagrams that men should never stand with their hands on their hips, because that was like a feminine stance, never tilt a hip to one side.
我的意思是，这些东西确实存在过，对吧？
I mean, this stuff was, but it was out there, right?
而且它还和礼仪联系在一起。
And it was also coupled with etiquette.
当时人们很清楚该如何行事，对吧？
It was very clear how to act, right?
可做的事情和说的话范围不大，但基本上都是按脚本来的，我并不是在故意唱反调，但这确实让剧本更简单，因此也更容易理解，不过也掩盖了很多其他东西，正如我们都同意的那样。
There wasn't much range, but the sort of range of things to do and say was fairly scripted, which I'll just make, I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here, but it made the script simpler and therefore more accessible, but it masked a lot of other things as I think what we both agree on.
但后来出现了模板，我出生于1975年，现在50岁了。
But then came the template, I was born in '75, so I'm 50 now.
在八十年代末和九十年代，各种元素混杂在一起。
In the late eighties and nineties, it was kind of a mishmash of things.
我们在电视剧中第一次看到了男同性恋角色。
We saw our first gay male characters in television shows.
是的。
Yes.
我们也看到了女同性恋角色，但既然我们讨论的是男性和男性气质，那确实是第一次。
We saw also gay female characters, but since we're talking about men and masculinity here, that that be that was the first time.
我认为《实话实说》旧金山那个角色是第一个，原谅我记不起他的名字了，他死于艾滋病，那正是艾滋病肆虐的时期，还有威尔和格雷夫斯。
I think it was the character on the real world San Francisco that the first character, forgive me for not remembering his name, he died of AIDS and it was during the AIDS epidemic and Will and Graves
对，没错。
and yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以这类情况更多了。
So there was more of that.
对吧？
Right?
但在公众视野中出现同性恋男性，与声称直男角色发生了变化，这两者是有区别的。
But there's a difference between having gay men in the public eye and saying that the role of straight men had changed.
完全同意，完全同意。
Totally agree, totally agree.
这是两件不同的事，但男性气质的概念确实有所扩展。
There's two separate things, but there was sort of an expansion of notions of maleness.
我觉得在八九十年代， things 几乎变成了一种自助餐式的选择，对吧？
I would say in the eighties and nineties, it's almost like things became somewhat more of a buffet, right?
你有橄榄球运动员型、金融精英型，还有沉默寡言型、养家护家型，但同时也出现了更多艺术型的男性气质，没错。
You had your football jock types, your finance guys, there was the stoic thing, the provider protector thing, but then there was more of an artsy artist phenotype Yeah.
这也出现了。
That emerged as well.
你有那种我说不上是敏感的艺术家，但确实有艺术表达。
You had I wouldn't say sensitive artist, but the artistic expression Yeah.
这种表达一直存在，但后来成了男性气质的一部分。
Became kind of it was always, but it became part of masculinity.
嗯，你还有嬉皮士。
Well, you had hippies.
你有嬉皮士，然后变成了摇滚乐。
You had hippies and then it became and then it was like rock and roll.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，虽然我不喜欢，但你也有像邦·乔维那样的类型。
I mean, you had also not my taste, but you had like the Bon Jovi's types.
你有长发，而且人们会说，哦，你来自新泽西。
You had like long hair and and it was, oh, you're from Jersey.
好的。
Okay.
忘了记忆了。
Forgot for memory.
所以邦乔维是个恰当的例子。
So Bon Jovi's an appropriate example.
因此，某种程度上有了扩展。
So there was somewhat of an expansion.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
某种程度上有了扩展。
There was somewhat of an expansion.
而现在，男性气质的模板似乎发生了变化，我的意思是，一些最著名的男性音乐艺术家，据我所知是异性恋的，却穿着过去被认为非常女性化的东西。
And then now it seems that the templates of maleness, I mean, some of the most famous musical artists who are men and, you know, report as heterosexual from what I know are, you know, dress in what used to be considered a very feminine way.
对吧？
Right?
你以前也有过，大卫·鲍伊。
You had that before too, David Bowie.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，这种模板中一直存在一些性别模糊的现象，但我认为它在九十年代最为明显，并且一直延续至今。
I mean, so there's always been a bit of gender bending within this template, but it really, I think emerged the most in the nineties and it's continued forward.
现在，当我跟二十多岁的男生聊天时，因为我有些朋友的孩子已经到了十几岁和二十多岁，他们似乎对自我表达这个概念非常自在。
And now when I talk to guys in their twenties, because I have friends with kids who are now in their late teens and twenties, it seems that they are very comfortable with the idea of self expression.
我想，这正是我想调和的观念：你说我们仍然深陷于父权制，但看起来二十多岁、三十多岁的年轻人，
I guess this is where I'm trying to reconcile this notion of like that we're so, you said that we're kind of still steeped in the patriarchy, but it seems like the kids in their 20s and 30s, and
甚至四十多岁的人，都觉得他们有很多选择。
maybe even 40s, they feel like they have options.
他们能够以我们无法做到的方式接触情感。
Well, have access to emotion in ways that we didn't.
他们都是由女性主义母亲抚养长大的，这产生了影响。
They were all raised by feminist mothers, and it had its impact.
但问题是，我看到这些男人，都在抱怨女人不喜欢他们。
But the problem is, I see these guys, and they're all whining that women aren't attracted to them.
这背后是有原因的。
And there's a reason for that.
许多与情感建立联系、关注更真挚议题的男性，同时带上了传统的男性特权。
A lot of guys who get in touch with emotion and the sort of more heartfelt issues bring along with it traditional male privilege.
所以他们说：‘我现在有情感了。’
So it's like, I'm emotional now.
来照顾我吧。
Come and take care of me.
很多女性抱怨，这些男人就像孩子一样。
And a lot of the women are complaining that these guys are kind of children.
他们不会站起来。
They don't sit stand up.
问题是这样。
The issue is this.
你能否心胸宽广、开放、富有情感，现身并承担责任、乐于付出？
Can you be big hearted and open and emotional and show up and be responsible and be giving.
对我们很多男性来说，没有改变的是付出。
The thing that hasn't changed for a lot of us guys is giving.
在五十年代，那是克制的，一切都围绕着我。
Back in the fifties and it was stoic, it's about me.
我出现并承担责任，而我们的年轻一代在这方面不如我们的父亲负责。
I show up and I am responsible in ways that our younger guys are less responsible than our dads were.
这些都是事实。
That that's all true.
但你知道，我会出去打龙，然后回家。
But, you know, I go out and I fight dragons, and I come home.
我的马提尼和拖鞋在哪？
And where's my Martini and slippers?
然后六十年代来了，女权主义也来了，好吧。
Then the sixties came on and and feminism and okay.
有感情是可以的。
It's okay to have feelings.
甚至有点脆弱也没关系。
It might even be okay to be a little bit vulnerable.
但这一切还是以我为中心。
But it's still about me.
当我谈到进步的男性气质时，我希望男性是心胸宽广、坚强、有联系且乐于付出的。
And when I talk about progressive masculinity, I want men who are big hearted, strong, connected, and giving.
这一点在传统的父权模式和许多反文化模式中都缺失了。
And that's missing both in traditional patriarchal model and in many of the countercultural model.
你知道我们的文化中缺少了什么吗？
You know what's missing in our culture?
我先暂时把话题从男性身上移开，谈谈更普遍的情况。
I'm gonna fade back from men for a moment and talk about generally.
我们文化中普遍缺失的是人际关系。
What's missing in our culture generally is relationality.
我们文化中缺失的是连接的美。
What's missing in our culture is the beauty of connection.
你看，你只要关注科学就行了。
And look, you you follow the science.
我四十年来一直在说这一点，现在科学已经非常明确了。
I've been saying this for forty years, and now the science is really very clear.
与自己和他人建立联系、保持亲密，这才是我们人类与生俱来的使命。
Being connected, being intimate with yourself and with others, that's what we humans are born for.
这就是我们的设计方式。
That's how we're designed.
我们是群居动物。
We're pack animals.
缺乏亲密联系不仅对我们的心理有害，我认为这是维韦克·穆尔西曾引用过的。
And the lack of intimate connection is not only bad for us psychologically, but I think it was Vivek Murthy who quoted.
它对身体的危害相当于每天抽一包半香烟。
It's as bad as smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day on your body.
我们生来就是要建立联系和关系的。
We are born to be connected and related.
我在九十年代就写过关于男性抑郁的问题。
And I wrote about male depression back in the nineties.
我说过，我们把男孩培养成男人的方式就是通过切断联系。
What I said is the way we, quote, turn boys into men is through disconnection.
我们告诉他们要与内心脱节，尤其是年轻男性。
We tell them to disconnect from their hearts, less so younger men.
与他人脱节，这就是所谓的独立和自主。
Disconnect from others that's being independent and autonomous.
而切断联系的代价就是孤立无援。
And the cost of disconnection is disconnection.
有些男性内心重新感受到了更多情感，但他们尚未掌握连接的艺术。
And some men have recovered more feeling inside their skin, but they haven't developed the art of connection.
你知道，我和你一样，我的实践中也接触过很多像你这样的大人物。
You know, I deal with just like you and many of your I deal with high rollers in my in my practice.
我教这些人的其中一件事，是满足感与我所说的 relational joy（关系性喜悦）之间的区别。
And one of the things that I teach these guys is the difference between gratification and what I call relational joy.
满足感就是你所想的那样，一种短暂的愉悦感，而我们的文化非常崇尚满足感。
Gratification is just what you think, a short term hit of pleasure, and our culture loves gratification.
那些开着私人飞机来找我的行业巨头们，全都追求满足感。
And, you know, these captains of the industry who come in and fly their private planes in to see me, they're all about gratification.
他们在这一点上做得非常出色。
And they've done beautifully at it.
你知道吗？
You know?
他们都很富有。
They're rich.
他们很有权力。
They're powerful.
在这个地方，这很棒。
That's great in this place.
我喜欢快乐。
I'm I I like pleasure.
有一种更深的快乐，我称之为关系之乐，作为父母你能体会到。
There's a deeper pleasure that I call relational joy, and you get that as a parent.
有时候你的孩子会给你带来满足感。
Sometimes your kids are gratifying.
有时候你真想把他们扔出窗外。
Sometimes you wanna throw them to the goddamn window.
但如果有人说：嘿。
But if anybody said, hey.
我们可以做个时间机器，你不必非得拥有这个阶段，因为在仅仅陪伴、建立连接、融入关系的过程中，有一种更深层的喜悦。
We could do a time machine, you don't have to have this deck yet because there's a deeper down joy in just being there and being connected, just being in the relationship.
这在我们的文化中已经丧失了。
And that's been lost in our culture.
我们生活在一个反关系、自恋的文化中。
We live in an anti relational, narcissistic culture.
尽管父权制的一些术语已经改变，但自恋和缺乏关系性却没有改变。
And even though some of the terms of patriarchy have moved, the narcissism and the lack of relationality has not moved.
这只不过是一种不同的变体。
It's just a different variation.
这里面有很多内容。
There's a lot there.
我想确保问一下关于男性情感体验和表达的这个概念。
And I I wanna make sure I ask about this notion of emotional experience and expression from men.
这似乎是一个非常重要的议题，需要仔细分析，因为确实，如今男性在你的工作和其他人影响下，开始意识到感受的重要性。
It seems like a very important topic to to parse because indeed it seems that men now are, thanks to your work and others are hearing that it's important to feel.
感受。
Feel.
去感受。
To feel.
对。
Yeah.
感受并不是可以接受的。
That feelings are not just okay.
它们是被鼓励的，如果你压抑它们，你知道，我们过去常听到这与心脏健康的影响有关，比如A型、B型人格，如果你回溯一下，这几乎像是另一种东西的面具。
They're encouraged that if you bottle them in, you know, we used to hear about this in the context of the impact on heart health, like type A, type B, like this, if you go back and look at the, it was almost like a mask for this other thing.
这依然正确，你确实可以通过吸烟和其他行为毁掉你的心脏，但真正关键的是最初那些容易因心脏病发作早逝的人群类型。
It's still true, you can destroy your heart by smoking cigarettes and all this other stuff, but it was really, it was about that original typing of people who tend to die early from heart attack.
是那些把情绪压抑在心里的人。
It was the people who hold it inside.
是那些管理很多、做很多事，却把情绪压抑在心里的人。
It was about people who manage a lot, do a lot, but hold it inside.
这很有趣，因为结果发现——我并不是建议人们这么做——那些经常大喊大叫的人反而活了下来。
It's kind of interesting because the ones that turned out, and I'm not suggesting people do that, screamed and yelled a lot.
这种情感宣泄实际上有助于他们的长寿。
That catharsis actually helped them in terms of longevity.
我不是说你应该去对别人大喊大叫。
I'm not saying you should go scream at people.
但史蒂夫·乔布斯曾经是尖叫疗法的坚定支持者。
But Steve Jobs used to be a big proponent of scream therapy.
就是走出去，把情绪表达出来。
And just getting out there and vocalizing.
但我认为，我心中真正的问题是：好吧，如果感受情绪很重要，那我们就把它当作一个决策树来处理。
But I think that the real, the question that's in my mind is, okay, so if it's important to feel, then let's just do this as a decision tree.
好的。
Okay.
所以我认为，如果我们同意，男性需要感受自己的情绪。
So I think if we agree, men need to feel their feelings.
是的。
Yes.
那么问题来了，他们是应该独自感受这些情绪，还是在他人陪伴下感受？
Then the question becomes, should they feel those alone or in the presence of someone else?
我猜两种情况都有其合理性，但什么时候一个人不再拥有你所说的这种情感特权——即把照顾自己情绪的责任推给他人呢？
And I'm guessing there's a case for both, but then at what point does one not have this, what you refer to as emotional privilege, where it's like putting it on someone else to take care of them.
你能举一个健康表达情绪的例子吗？
Could you give an example of what healthy expression of an emotion is?
为了简化，我们把这个情境限定在异性情侣中。
Let's keep this in the context of heterosexual couple for simplicity.
当然。
Sure.
但显然这种情况也适用于其他关系。
But obviously it carries over.
当然。
Sure.
健康的情绪表达是什么样的例子？
What is an example of healthy emotional expression?
比如说悲伤，深深的悲伤，或者沮丧和悲伤。
Let's say sadness, deep sadness, or frustration and sadness.
嗯。
Yeah.
在伴侣面前表达时，对方不会觉得你在退化，变得像孩子一样。
In the presence of a partner that doesn't bring about this thing of that they're regressing and are now becoming a child.
那会是什么样子？
What does that look like?
这看起来像是一种协商，而不是要求。
It looks like a negotiation and not a demand.
你能详细说说吗？
Could you tell me more?
嗯。
Yeah.
因为即使在我们身上，我也会推动我们。
Because even in our I'm gonna push us.
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在我们的对话中，我不在乎感受。
Even in our talk, I don't care about the feelings.
我在乎的是连接。
I care about the connection.
让我们男性健康的是连接。
What will make us men healthy is connection.
所以，是的，很好。
So, yeah, great.
去感受你的情绪吧。
Have your feelings.
然后你打算怎么处理它们？
And then what are you gonna do with them?
我以前没有情绪，现在却到处都是情绪。
I used to have no feelings, and now I have feelings all over the place.
我才不在乎你和你的感受。
And I don't give a shit about you and your feelings.
我希望你关注我以及我的感受。
I want you to pay attention to me and my feelings.
那么，这算是一种进步吗？
Well, is that a step up?
我的意思是，有一点进步，但这并不是我想让你停留的地方。
I mean, a little bit, but it's not where I wanna leave you.
所以我希望男性能超越的是我们的自私。
So what I want men to move beyond is our selfishness.
因为超越我们的自私符合我们的利益。
And because it's in our interests to move beyond our selfishness.
所以，重新找回感受、保持冷静或拥有情感，当然很好。
And so recovering feeling, being stoic or having feelings, sure, that's good.
这很重要。
That's important.
我们通过情感建立联系。
The way we connect is through feelings.
我们通过脆弱建立联系。
The way we connect is through vulnerability.
所以我很紧张，来这里和你谈话。
So I was nervous coming here talking to you.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
我？
Me?
是的。
Yeah.
很难想象。
Well, hard to imagine.
对吧？
Right?
但这是真的。
But it's true.
嗯，这是真的。
Well, it's true.
我在这里花了很长时间，所以这是一个非常熟悉的地方。
I I spent a lot of time here, so it's it's a very familiar place.
但我希望这并不是因为我让人感到害怕。
But I would hope that's not because I'm intimidating.
不。
No.
不是因为这个。
It's not that.
更像现在有很多人在听我们说话。
It's more like there are a lot of people listening to us right now.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
对这些问题有着浓厚兴趣的人。
Who are intensely interested in these issues.
男性和女性，年轻人和老年人，都非常关注这些问题。
Men and women, young and old, are really interested in these issues.
是的。
Yeah.
我们确实应该如此。
As we should be.
不仅仅是因为男性自杀率更高，虽然确实如此，但更重要的是，正如你所指出的，我们是古老的灵长类物种，不可能再回到群体生活了。
And not just because men are killing themselves more, that too, but also because, as you pointed out, we are a old world primate species, and we are not going to go back to living in troops.
抱歉，各位。
Sorry, folks.
不。
No.
我的同事，我也把他当作朋友，鲍勃·萨波尔斯基，我们偶尔会讨论这个问题。
My colleague, I like to consider him a friend as well, Bob Sapolsky, we talk about this from time to time.
就是这样，这就是我们进化的结果。
It's like, yeah, that's how we evolved.
猜猜看，各位？
Guess what, folks?
根本不存在一个所有人都搬去的小村庄。
There's no little village where everyone moves to.
我知道。
I know.
这不会发生。
It's not happening.
我知道。
I know.
但我们也是极具适应性的旧世界灵长类动物。
Well But we are also very adaptable old world primates.
没错。
That's true.
所以，但这种神经回路是不会消失的。
So but that The circuitry is not going anywhere.
这是一种需求。
It's a need.
所以，希望你现在不再紧张了，不过让我来回答你的问题。
So if I could hopefully you're not feeling nervous anymore, Well, but let me answer your question.
嗯。
Yeah.
因为我做了件事，我联系了我们共同的朋友比娅。
Because what I did is I called our mutual friend Bea.
哦，是吗。
Oh yeah.
我说我感到紧张。
And I said I was nervous.
是吗？
Is that right?
是的。
Yeah.
她很棒。
And she's wonderful.
是的。
Yeah.
她只是说，他很棒。
And she just says, He's wonderful.
让我告诉你关于安德鲁以及会发生什么。
Let me tell you about Andrew and what's gonna happen.
她给我详细讲了一遍整个事情。
And she like read me through the whole thing.
而且，我就不细说了，但我之前担心的是，哦，我们可能会在这件事上意见不合。
And little, I'm not gonna get into it, but my fears about, Oh, well, we're gonna disagree about this.
不会的，你不会。
No, you're not.
让我告诉你实际情况。
Let me tell you how it is.
和她谈完之后，我感到内心平静。
And after I was done talking to her, I was chilled.
这是一种祝福。
That's a blessing.
当男性不接触自己的脆弱时，我们失去的是向他人寻求帮助的能力。
What men lose when we don't when we're not in touch with our vulnerabilities is we lose the capacity to ask somebody to help them.
但这是请求，而不是要求。
But it's ask someone, not demand.
而且这也是相互的。
And it's also reciprocal.
当贝开始谈论她的关系时，我也开始支持她。
It's not know, then Bae started talking about her relationship, and I started supporting her.
这才是真正的关系。
And that's a relationship.
是的，我希望男性能摆脱束缚，去感受情感。
And, yes, I want men to come out of the straitjacket and have feelings.
我希望我们能够完整，坦然接纳自己的人性脆弱。
I want us to be whole and own our human vulnerabilities.
但在一种与他人相连的语境中，既不与他们隔绝，也不强加于他们。
But in a context in a context in which we're connected to other people and we're neither cut off from them nor are we imposing on them.
但我们已经失去了这种艺术——如何与人相处，仅仅是与人相处，如何邀请他们与我们相伴，如何回应并彼此相伴。
But we've learned the art, and it's virtually lost, of how to be with, simply how to be with, how to ask them to be with us, and how to reciprocate and be with them.
你知道，很多女性对我们感到愤怒。
You know, so many women are angry at us.
我的意思是，我正在应对。
I mean, I deal.
我是性别战争中的医生。
I'm the medic in the gender war.
你知道吗？
You know?
我的工作对象是那些濒临离婚、别人都无法帮助的夫妻。
I deal my beat are couples on the brink of divorce that no one else has been able to help.
这正是我的专长。
That's my specialty.
我们就是不知道该怎么办。
And it's like we just don't know.
我有个说法，可能会惹麻烦，但这是一个广泛的概括，从临床角度来看。
I have a saying, and I may get into trouble, but it's a broad generalization, but clinically.
我喜欢说，一个愤怒的女人，是一个觉得自己没被听见的女人。
I like to say an angry woman is a woman who doesn't feel heard.
所以很多男人会说：这里到底发生了什么？
And so many men are like, what is going on here?
我的婚姻也没那么糟，但如果你能让她别再缠着我就好了。
My marriage isn't that bad, but if you could just get her off my back.
我不明白问题出在哪里。
I don't understand what the problem is.
而且你们，我们面对的是一个愤怒的女人，好吧，我先回头说这个。
And you you we're hit with a angry well, I'll double back on this.
但我们面对的是一个愤怒的女人，要么反击，要么变得防御，要么退缩。
But we're hit with an angry woman, and we either push back or get defensive or we we withdraw.
我必须在最后引导这些男人。
I have to lead men by the end of it.
让我教你们一些东西。
Let me teach you something.
告诉我你为什么生气。
Tell me why you're angry.
告诉我你想要什么。
Tell me what you would like.
让我给你一个建议，除非是跳桥这种事。
Let me give you unless it's jumping off the bridge.
我有个说法，我知道如何在五秒内让一个愤怒的女人平静下来，50%的情况下都有效，这比你现在做的要好。
I I have a saying, I know how you can disarm an angry woman in five seconds 50% of the time, which is better than you're doing.
好的。
Okay.
你怎么做呢？
How do you do it?
给她她想要的。
Give her what she wants.
让我问问你最近怎么了，看看我能怎么帮忙。
Let me ask you what's going on with you and do what I can to help out.
这对我们文化来说是一种全新的技能。
This is a skill that's brand new for our culture.
如果可以的话，这又回到了核心问题，我希望我们能谈到这一点，即男性的自尊。
And if I may, it doubles back on the central issue, which I hope we get to, of men in self esteem.
因为我们的文化中，大多数男性都不知道健康自尊是什么样子。
Because most men in our culture have no idea what healthy self esteem looks like.
但自尊是从内而外产生的。
But we self esteem comes from the inside out.
我有价值，因为我存在，我在呼吸。
I have worth because I'm here and I'm breathing.
我不需要去赢得它。
I don't have to earn it.
我无法增加它。
I can't add to it.
我无法减少它。
I can't subtract from it.
你知道，这是一种民主。
You know, it's democracy.
我的价值并不比你的更好或更差。
My worth is no better or worse than yours.
我生来就拥有它。
I'm born with it.
男性被教导要以外在表现来建立自尊，而这大多是基于表现的。
Men are taught outside in self esteem, and it's mostly performance.
我有价值，因为我能做些什么。
I have worth because of what I can do.
我肌肉发达。
I have big muscles.
我能满足妻子，让她达到高潮。
I can land I can give my wife an orgasm.
我能胜任这份工作。
I can land this job.
我能打出本垒打。
I can hit this homer.
当你表现良好时，这很棒。
That's great when you perform well.
但当你表现不佳时，就会陷入羞耻。
But when you don't perform well, you go into shame.
你的价值去哪儿了？
What happened to your worth?
因此，健康的自尊，如果我可以这么说的话，我稍后还会回头详细讨论——我必须教给男性的是：对不良行为感到与之相称的愧疚。
And so healthy self esteem, if I may, and I may double back and talk more about it, which I have to teach men, is the capacity to feel proportionally bad about bad behavior.
我搞砸了。
I screwed up.
我伤害了你。
I hurt you.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
同时，依然以温暖的态度看待自己这个不完美的人。
And at the same time, hold yourself in warm regard as the imperfect person.
而我们通常的做法是，对不良行为毫无愧疚感。
And what what we do is we either don't feel bad about bad behavior.
这是无耻的。
That's shameless.
这是自大的。
That's grandiose.
甚至连反社会者也是如此。
The sociopathic even.
或者如果我们确实感到内疚，就会立刻陷入羞耻。
Or if we do feel bad, we go right into shame.
我是个没用的垃圾。
I'm a useless piece of shit.
我感觉糟透了。
I feel terrible.
我必须教男性们从羞耻中走出来，不要沉迷于所谓的——我常说的一点是，当你从毫无羞耻的不良行为、不负责任、自私、冷漠，突然转到‘天啊，这太糟糕了’。
I have to teach men to come up out of shame and not be obsessed with the you know, one of the things I say is when you go from shameless bad behavior, irresponsible, selfish, insensitive to, oh my god, that's terrible.
我是个大混蛋。
I'm a big shit.
我真该狠狠揍自己一顿。
I should just beat the hell out of myself.
你只是在用一种自我中心代替另一种，猜猜看？
You're trading one form of self preoccupation or guess what?
另一种形式的自我关注。
Another form of self preoccupation.
我确实想深入探讨自尊的问题，但为了我自己，也为了部分听众，我想先总结一下我认为的两个结论，然后你可以加以修改。
I definitely wanna get into self esteem, but I just want to, for my sake, and for some of the listeners, make sure that I summarize two, what I think are conclusions, and then you can modify these.
很好。
Great.
关于情绪的表达，你和我完全同意。
As it relates to expression of emotion, which you, and I totally agree.
我的意思是，你必须能够感受自己的情绪。
I mean, you have to be able to feel your feelings.
即使仅有一个很好的理由，开始这条路径的好处在于它对你的身体健康大有裨益。
If for no other reason, one good reason, great reason to get started on that trajectory is it's great for your physical health.
它对你的心理健康和人际关系健康也同样有益。
It's also great for your mental health and your relational health.
但正如你所知，男性往往需要被引导到某个‘水槽’前，才能看到特定的‘胡萝卜’，而那里还有其他的胡萝卜。
But oftentimes, as you know, men need to be kind of, like, led to the trough for for a particular carrot, and then there are additional carrots in there.
但把一切压抑在心里会害死你。
But it's holding everything inside will kill you.
是的。
Yes.
它会害死你。
It will kill you.
而且还会让周围的所有人也变得痛苦，即使你以为自己在保护他们免受其害。
And it makes everyone else around you miserable too, even if you think you're protecting them from it.
但正如你非常重要地指出的，不能把情绪一味地发泄在别人身上。
But as you very importantly pointed out, it can't be a dumping of emotion on other people.
所以我从你那里听到的，关于男性情感参与的至少两种健康方式，一是寻求帮助。
So what I heard from you was of at least two very healthy ways to engage emotionally for men is one, to ask for help.
是的。
Yeah.
而你提到的帮助例子，比如你联系的那位非常有才华的治疗师比娅·沃斯，就是通过表达你心中所虑来寻求帮助。
And the help from your example that you're referring to also a very talented therapist, Bea Voce, when you called Bea was to ask for help by expressing what is on your mind as the point of concern.
比如一个人感到紧张，或者一个人感到悲伤。
Like one is nervous or one is sad.
在我看来，女性在你……时会自然地伸出援手。
I think in my experience, women naturally reach out to help when you
把它们表达出来。
couch them.
每个人都会这样。
Everybody does.
对。
Right.
那另一种情况，让我先明确一下，安德鲁？
Then the other Can I spell that out for a second, Andrew?
我们所面对的是所谓的伊卡洛斯综合症。
What we have is what they call the Icarus syndrome.
在缺乏价值感的情况下，我们中的许多人觉得必须用努力去换取爱。
In the absence of worthiness, so many of us feel we have to earn love.
我们必须赢得自身的价值。
We have to earn worthiness.
我喜欢说，暂且让我做个异性恋者，让他们的妻子离开。
And I like to say, leave their wives I'll be hetero for a moment.
伙计们，离开你们的妻子和孩子。
Guys, leave their wives and kids.
飞向太阳，去赢得爱。
Go fly off into the sun to be worthy of love.
与此同时，他们的妻子和孩子却在问：爸爸去哪儿了？
And meanwhile, their wives and kids are saying, where the hell is dad?
这到底发生了什么？
What what's going on here?
嗯，我去努力赢取你的爱了。
Well, I'm off trying to win your love.
看在上帝的份上，坐下来和我们一起玩大富翁吧。
Well, sit down and play monopoly with us for Christ's sake.
你不必那样做。
You don't have to do that.
这就像一种虚假的承诺。
It's like it's a bill of goods.
这是我们所有人都买账的一个骗局。
It's it's a scam that we've all bought.
只需坐下来，安静下来，保持连接。
Just sit down and be still and be connected.
你只需要做这些，但我们没有被这样教导。
That's all you need to do, but we don't we're not taught that.
没错。
Right.
我们稍后会再回到这个话题，但作为提供者和保护者的责任——以及，坦率地说，其中的快乐——很多时候，虽然并非总是如此，确实需要离开家去工作。
And we'll get back to this later, but the demands of also And the joy, frankly, of being a provider and protector many times, not always, involve having to leave the home and go do work.
坦白说，我所有有孩子的朋友，我自己也深有体会，当你因为工作无法在家时，会有一种奇特的痛苦。
And frankly, all my friends with kids, and I've certainly experienced this, it's when you're not able to be home because you're working, it's this weird pain.
因为你会发现，我当然热爱我的工作，做一个提供者很棒，但与此同时，无法参与某些事情也带来一种痛苦。
Because you look, I certainly love my work, being a provider is wonderful, and at the same time, there's this pain of not being able to be there for things.
我们可以稍后再回到这个话题。
And we can get back to that.
但寻求帮助，以及以一种非退化、非自以为是、非特权的方式去回应——正如你所说，当一个女人感到不安时，该问的是：你需要什么？
But asking for help, and then in terms of responding in it, in the in a non regressive, non, you know, entitled way, privileged way, as you said, is when a woman is upset, the words, what do you need?
这就像沙漠中的甘霖。
That is water in the desert.
也许还可以问：你现在最需要我为你做些什么？
And perhaps also, what do you need from me right now?
你现在需要我为你做些什么？
What do need from me right now?
好的。
Okay.
太好了。
Great.
我只是想为这件事建立一些结构，因为关于Y染色体，我们确实对简单的指令反应良好。
I'm just trying to put some structure on this because as there is also something about the Y chromosome, like we respond well to simple instructions.
好的，我会
Okay, I'll
相信这一点。
take I believe that.
我有一整套关于Y染色体以及男性如何演变成如今这样的理论。
I have a whole theory about Y chromosomes and how men evolved to be the way that we are.
我们可以在最后轻松地聊一聊，虽然有点开玩笑的成分，但也不是完全胡说。
We can talk about maybe at the end for fun, because it's somewhat facetious, but not really.
然后你刚才说的另一件事，我觉得这关于自尊至关重要：当我们犯错时，能够承担责任。
And then the next thing that you were saying, and I think this is so critical about self esteem, is the ability to accept responsibility when we screw up.
同时，又不至于陷入羞耻，还能保持一种内在的良善感。
And at the same time, not take ourselves into a place of shame, to be able to still hold on to one sense of goodness.
我是个好家伙，只是犯了错。
I'm a good guy who screwed up.
我是个好人，只是行为不当。
I'm a good guy who behaved badly.
如果对你说话的那些话并非如此呢？
What if the words coming at you are not of that?
并不是说：嘿，听着，我生气是因为你在这事上搞砸了。
It's not, hey, listen, I'm upset because you really dropped the ball on this thing.
而是说：我生气是因为你在这事上搞砸了，这就变成了对人格的蓄意攻击。
It's, I'm upset because you really dropped the ball on this thing and it becomes character logical assassination.
是的。
Yeah.
这需要额外的努力。
That takes an extra level of work.
确实如此。
It does.
在这种情况下，你的建议是尝试反驳，还是只是静下心来，内心默默告诉自己：这并不真实？
And in that case, is your recommendation to try and counter that or to just sit with it and do the work internally to say that's not true?
好吧，祝你成功反驳它。
Well, good luck countering it.
这管用吗？
How's that working?
听好了。
Listen.
这是一个陷阱，我看到了。
This is a trap, and I look.
首先，事情是这样的。
I'm a first of all, the thing is this.
缺乏自尊让我们这些人在关系中逃避责任。
The lack of self esteem leads us guys to be unaccountable in our relationship.
当我们面对缺陷时，会陷入羞耻。
When we're confronted with an imperfection, we're gonna go into shame.
我们没有能力对缺陷感到适度的愧疚。
We don't have the capacity to feel proportionately bad about the imperfection.
好吧。
Okay.
你说得对。
You're right.
我搞砸了。
I screwed up.
我能做些什么来帮忙？
What can I do to help?
意思是，我没打出全垒打？
It's like, oh, you mean I didn't hit a homer?
那就意味着我是个失败者。
That means I'm a loser.
我们试图抵御自己缺乏自尊所带来的压倒感。
And we defend against the overwhelm of our own lack of self worth.
你什么意思，我不完美？
What do you mean I'm not perfect?
我们通过回避批评来抵御那种糟糕的感觉，那确实是一种糟糕的感觉。
We defend against that awful feeling, and it's an awful feeling, by warding off the criticism.
等等，等等。
Well, wait a minute.
你得明白。
You have to understand.
我的意思是，你知道，我们确实做了所有那些女性总是抱怨我们做的事，而我们也确实做了。
Well, you I mean, you know, we do all these defensive things that women always complain we do, and we do.
因为我们是在保护自己，免受被淹没的 overwhelm。
Because we're protecting ourselves from the overwhelm of getting swamped.
我是个坏人。
I'm a bad guy.
有趣的是，我教男性自尊，以此帮助他们在关系中承担责任。
So interestingly, I teach men self esteem as a way of helping them be accountable in their relationship.
很有趣。
Interesting.
如果你没有健康的自尊，你就无法承担起责任，因为承认自己有多么不完美会让人不堪重负。
If you don't have healthy self esteem, you can't afford to be accountable because it's too overwhelming to admit how imperfect you are.
你所说的这一点非常重要。
This is so important what you're saying.
对于那些没有恋爱关系的人，尤其是男性，这一点尤为关键，因为在我看来，我们可以很容易地将这种情形类比到上司或反馈上。
Also for people who aren't in romantic relationship, for men, it's so critical because we could, in my mind, we could easily transpose boss or feedback.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
而且我觉得，原谅我在这里说得这么慢，但把其中一些内容梳理成一个结构，可能会帮助我，也希望对其他人有帮助。
And there's a, I feel like, and again, forgive me for kind of going slow here, but feel like parsing some of this into a structure is gonna help me and hopefully help other people.
我一生中可能经历过两种形式的批评。
There kind of two forms of criticism that perhaps I've experienced in life.
我是在开玩笑。
I'm being I'm joking.
当然，我确实经历过。
Of course, I've experienced it.
一种是有人对我所做的事情感到不满。
One is someone is upset about what I did.
嗯。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
即使对方以人格攻击的方式向我表达，我依然能听到，并且拥有足够的自尊作为内在储备来接纳这些声音。
And I hear you loud and clear, even if it's coming at me with characterological assassination to have the internal reservoir of self esteem that I can hear that.
我们会发生什么？听我说，我已经结婚四十年了。
What happens to us Look, I've been married forty years.
我也是。
Me too.
我们会被糟糕的表达方式困住，然后对这种糟糕的表达方式做出反应。
We get caught in the horrible delivery and we react to the horrible delivery.
别这样，也没那么糟。
Come on, it's not that bad.
嘿，你在说些难听的话。
Hey, you're talking horrible.
一个关系中的黑带高手，你会躲开那些难听的表达。
A black belt in a relational guy, you duck under the horrible delivery.
我不是说这不难听。
I'm not saying it's not horrible.
确实难听。
It is.
但你要努力去理解对方真正想表达的意思。
But you try and get to the point that the person's trying to make.
为什么？
Why?
这是柔术。
It's jujitsu.
你要躲开那些难听的表达。
You duck under the horrible delivery.
你应对他们的痛苦。
You deal with their ouch.
猜猜会发生什么？
And guess what happens?
他们会平静下来。
They calm down.
当然。
Sure.
你对糟糕的表达做出反应。
You react to the horrible delivery.
这被夸大了。
That's exaggerated.
啰啰嗦嗦。
Blah blah blah.
于是，你就开始了。
And well, you're off to the races.
所以，天啊，多么有智慧的人啊。
So but, oh my god, what an enlightened man.
你的伴侣、老板或孩子说：你是个糟糕的人。
Your partner or your boss or your kid is saying, you're a shitty human being.
你知道，这并不是关于你的不良行为。
You know, this isn't about your bad behavior.
你就是个烂人。
You're just a rotten person.
这就是羞耻。
That's shame.
你有足够的界限。
You have enough boundaries.
你有足够的自尊。
You have enough self esteem.
你会想，他们在虐待人。
You go, well, they're being abusive.
这并不是他们最好的一面。
This is not the best part of them.
但与其对这种行为做出反应，你到底在为什么事这么难过，亲爱的？
But rather than react to that, what are you so upset about, honey?
我现在能为你做些什么？
What can I give you right now?
这些技巧的美妙之处在于它们真的有效。
And the beauty of these skills is that they work.
你知道，当你对伴侣的不良行为做出反应时，你就失控了。
You know, you react to the bad behavior on your partner's part, and you're off.
这种情况会持续数小时，甚至数天。
It just goes on for hours, days.
你避开它，心想：好吧，你很难过。
You duck under that and go, okay, you're upset.
我能做些什么来帮助你？
What can I do to help you?
而你让所有这些毒性从你身上流过。
And you that all of that toxicity just passes through you.
这才是真正的男人。
That's a real man.
原本可能持续一天到一周的痛苦，因为做得好，十分钟到十五分钟就平息了。
And it's like something that could have been misery for a day to a week, it calms down in ten, fifteen minutes because of the good job.
当我跟男性交谈时，我想重新定义力量。
And when I talk to guys, I wanna redefine strength.
我们通常所理解的力量，就是对抗，就是争斗。
Strength, the way we normally think of it, you know, it's list it's the rumble.
使出你的全力吧。
Give me your best shot.
我也使出我的全力。
I give you my best shot.
我喜欢柔术。
I like jiu jitsu.
躲过去。
Duck under it.
躲过这波浪潮。
Duck under the wave.
而在最后，不是说，我真的很坚强。
And at the at the end, instead of saying, was really strong.
我没有忍受那些狗屁。
I didn't put up with that bullshit.
我说了不。
I stood at no.
我希望你能说，我真的很优雅。
I want you to say, I was really elegant.
我只是避开了整件事。
I just sidestepped that whole thing.
本可能持续数日的挣扎，我却在十分钟内化解了。
And what might have been a struggle that would go on for days, I just diffused in ten minutes.
我不酷吗？
Aren't I cool?
在我眼里，那才是真男人。
That's a real man in my book.
到目前为止，我相信你们很多人都听过我说，我已经服用AG1十多年了，这确实是事实。
By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG one for more than a decade, and indeed that's true.
我早在2012年就开始服用AG1，至今每天仍在服用，原因在于据我所知，AG1是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day is because AG1 is to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还包含益生菌、益生元和适应原，以弥补你饮食中的任何不足，同时为紧张的生活提供支持。
What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet while also providing support for a demanding life.
由于AG1含有益生菌和益生元，它还有助于维持健康的肠道菌群。
Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.
肠道菌群由数万亿个微小微生物组成，它们分布在你的消化道内，影响着你的免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康以及其他更多方面。
The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
坚持服用AG1有助于我的消化，增强我的免疫系统，并确保我的情绪和精神专注力始终处于最佳状态。
Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.
AG1现在推出了三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带味。
AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical.
虽然我一直以来都喜欢AG1的原味，尤其是加一点柠檬汁后，但我现在特别喜欢新的浆果味。
And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular.
味道非常好。
It tastes great.
但话说回来，我确实喜欢所有口味。
But then again, I do love all the flavors.
如果你想尝试AG1和这些新口味，可以前往drinkag1.com/huberman领取特别优惠。
If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
目前，AG1正在免费赠送六份AGZ的试用装，AGZ是AG1新推出的睡眠配方，顺便说一句，它非常棒。
Right now, AG1 is giving away six free sample packs of AGZ, which is AG1's new sleep formula, which by the way is fantastic.
这是我唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。
It's the only sleep supplement I take.
它让我不再需要服用那么多药片，我的睡眠质量也从未如此好过。
It eliminates the need for all these pills and my sleep has never been better.
这个特别优惠包括六份免费的AGZ样品，以及三个AG1旅行装和一瓶维生素D3K2，适用于您的首次订阅。
The special offer gives you six free samples of that AGZ, as well as three AG1 travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your first subscription.
只需前往drinkag1.com/huberman即可开始。
Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.
关于我们这里所构建的这个情境，有两个问题。
Two questions about this scenario that we've kind of got structured here.
至少有两种普遍类型的批评。
There are at least two general types of criticism.
一种是你做错了事，搞砸了。
One is you did something you screwed up.
嗯。
Yeah.
就是你搞砸了。
Like you screwed up.
你做了错误的事。
You did the wrong thing.
你做了坏事。
You did the bad thing.
你把事情做得很差。
You did something poorly.
另一种是对你没做的事情感到不满。
The other is upset about what you didn't do.
好的。
Okay.
在我的认知范围内，我显然不是临床医生，但在我有限的与男性交流中，他们曾分享过一些挫折，可能来自上司，也可能来自伴侣。
And in my limit, I'm not a clinician obviously, but in my limited number of interactions with men where they share about a frustration, could be from a boss, could be from a partner.
很多时候，问题在于他们没做什么。
Oftentimes it's what about, it's what they didn't do.
是的。
Yeah.
他们会坦诚地说，他们之所以没做，之所以没想起来，是因为他们忙于承担作为提供者和伴侣所必须做的一切其他事情。
And they'll confide that the reason they didn't do it, the reason it seemed like they didn't think about it is because they are awfully busy doing all the other things that come with being a provider and a partner entails.
而且现实中时间是有约束的，对吧？
And there's the real world constraints of time, right?
所以并不是说，哦，你忘了纪念日或者忘了送礼物。
And so it's not like, oh, you forgot the anniversary or you forgot the present.
这不是那个男人。
It's not this guy.
而是那些从未被提过、但别人本应自然注意到的事情。
It's the things that never get asked for that someone doesn't just naturally see.
其实，我首先是个视觉科学家，其次才是神经科学家。
Like, I'm a vision scientist first and a neuroscientist second, really.
我们对某些事情有着巨大的盲点。
And we have giant blind spots about certain things.
女性能看到和听到的东西，我们却完全注意不到。
Women see and hear things that we just don't.
是的。
Yes.
男人能看到女人看不到的东西。
And men see and hear things that women just cannot see.
不。
No.
你不被允许这么说。
You're not allowed to say that.
这非常不政治正确。
It's very politically incorrect.
但男人能看到女人看不到的东西。
But, like, men see things in women that they can't see.
女人也能看到男人看不到的东西。
Women see things in men that they can't see.
这种认为女人无所不知而男人是傻瓜的想法
This idea that women are all knowing and men are dopes
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
这正是导致我们现状的一部分。
Part of what It's part of what got us here.
没错。
That's true.
你知道，就像那种荷马·辛普森类型的想法。
You know, notion of like, you know, the Homer Simpson type thing.
你知道吗？
You know?
确实有这样的人，但我认为现实中还有一种荷马·辛普森，他一直勤勤恳恳地工作，努力让生活运转下去，你知道的。
There's certainly men like that, but I would say there's a real world version of Homer Simpson that was actually working very steadily at his job, trying to make things work, you know, to, you know.
所以当涉及到应对别人对你没做什么的批评时。
So when it comes to dealing with criticism about what one did not do.
是的。
Yeah.
我可以想象同样的规则适用，但公平地说，这个问题中哪些方面应归咎于伴侣以及他们提出问题的方式。
I can imagine same rules apply, but I think it's only fair to say what aspect of this falls on the partner and the way they raise an issue.
是的。
Yeah.
显然，人身攻击无助于解决问题。
Obviously, characterological assassinations are not gonna help.
是的。
Yeah.
这会让柔术更难施展。
They make the jujitsu harder.
这会让承担责任变得更困难，但这种情况一定会发生。
It makes it harder to accept responsibility, but it's gonna happen.
这会随着错误的严重程度而加剧，对吧？
It's gonna scale with how bad the infraction was, right?
好的。
Okay.
但什么是健康的批评方式？
But what is a healthy delivery of a criticism?
是只用‘我’开头的表达吗？
Is it all I statements?
是完全基于个人感受吗？
Is it purely based on how one feels?
我并不是想推卸责任，但说实话，这是双向的。
I'm not trying to distribute responsibility here, but let's be honest, it's a two way street.
这不仅仅是双向的。
It's more than a two way street.
而且，让我们明确一下，这些都是泛泛而谈。
And again, let's own these are broad generalities.
我们都明白这一点，但我们之所以说得简单，是因为总得有个起点。
We both understand that, but we're speaking simply because we gotta start somewhere.
所以我也会教女性如何建立关系。
So I teach women too how to be relational.
我不是说男人不善于关系，而女人就擅长。
I'm not saying men aren't relational and women are.
在这个文化中，我们双方都相当糟糕。
We're both pretty screwed up in this in this culture.
对于很多女性来说，一个严峻的事实是，我有八百万句格言，其中一句是：你没有权利因为没得到你从未要求过的东西而生气。
And the the tough news for a lot of women, I I have 8,000,000 sayings, and one of them is you don't have the right to get mad about not getting what you never asked for.
你能重复一遍吗？
Could you repeat that?
你没有权利因为没得到你从未要求过的东西而生气。
You don't have the right to get mad about not getting what you never asked for.
这是女性走出传统角色的表现。
And that's that's women stepping out of their traditional role.
你是什么意思？
What do mean?
我得告诉他们吗？
I have to tell them?
就像，白马王子应该自己知道。
Like, prince charming should just know.
如果我得告诉他们，那就不算数。
If I have to tell them, it doesn't count.
我的意思是，我真的经常听到这种话。
I mean, I literally hear that.
我的说法是，姑娘们，灰姑娘已经死了。
And, you know, what I say is, well, gals, Cinderella's dead.
白马王子可能刚从康复中心出来。
Prince Charming probably just came out of rehab.
我不愿意这么说，但我知道这并不浪漫。
And I hate to tell you, but I I know it's not romantic.
但如果你想要你的男人给你什么，你得卷起袖子去争取。
But if you want something from your guy, you're gonna have to roll up your sleeves and fight for it.
你必须明确表达你的需求，然后教会他们你想要什么。
You're gonna have to assert what you want and then teach them what you want.
在关系中获得更多你想要的东西有三个步骤，这一点对女性尤其重要，因为她们往往是承受不满的一方。
There are three steps of getting more of what you want in a relationship, and it's particularly true for women because they're the ones carrying the dissatisfaction.
第一，敢于打破平静。
One, dare to rock the boat.
亲爱的，这对我来说真的很重要。
Honey, this is really important to me.
我觉得你根本没在听。
I don't think you've been listening.
你最好认真点。
You better pay attention.
第二，一旦男人明白了，好吧。
Two, once the guy is on board, okay.
你需要什么？
What do you what do I need?
教他。
Teach him.
别指望他能懂。
Don't expect him to know.
我听了四十年的女性告诉我，男人不懂如何建立关系。
I've been listening to women for forty years tell me men don't know how to be relational.
猜怎么着？
Guess what?
我相信你。
I believe you.
如果你不告诉他们，他们怎么知道如何建立关系呢？
So how are they gonna know how to be relational if you don't tell them?
并不是说你就是客观的老师。
Not that you're the objective teacher.
那是陷阱。
That's a trap.
但以谦逊的主观态度，这就是莎莉的指示。
But subjectively with humility, this is Sally instructions.
这就是我希望你做的，让我开心。
This is what I want from you to make me happy.
但卷起袖子，向他们展示你想要什么，然后当他们努力给予时，给予奖励。
But roll up your sleeves and show them what you want, and then reward them when they try and give it to you.
在这个文化中，人们根本不会做这些。
People don't do any of that in this culture.
具体的例子是约翰·格雷，愿他安息，靠这个赚了数百万美元。
The concrete example is John Gray, God bless him, made millions of dollars on this.
男性倾向于解决问题式倾听，而女性则希望得到共情式倾听。
Men problem solve listening and women want empathic listening.
这两种方式本身都没有错。
There's nothing wrong with either.
错误在于，这些从未在事前进行过协商。
What's wrong is it doesn't get negotiated upfront.
所以我教女性说：听着，我要跟你聊聊我和一个女朋友的争吵。
So I teach women to say, listen, I'm gonna talk to you about a fight I had with a girlfriend.
十分钟，十五分钟。
Ten, fifteen minutes.
首先，限制时间有帮助。
First of all, it helps to limit it.
在这里，男生，我们必须谈谈。
Guys here, we have to talk.
他们以为会聊到凌晨四点。
They think they're in till four in the morning.
十五分钟。
Fifteen minutes.
在这十五分钟里，我希望你能像女朋友一样。
In that fifteen minutes, I want you to be like a girlfriend.
我希望你在那里说：这太糟了。
I want you, there, that sucks.
再给我讲讲细节。
Tell me more about it.
我希望你能感同身受地去做。
I want you to do empathically.
这就是它的样子。
This is what it looks like.
我们在关系中总是被动。
We're passive in our relationships.
我们任由彼此做自己想做的事，然后又对此抱怨。
We let we let each other do what we do, and then we complain about it.
我们可以去塑造它。
We can do shape it.
前期更主动表达，后期更少怨恨。
More assertion upfront, less resentment on the back end.
所以卷起袖子，教你男朋友你想要什么。
So roll up your sleeves and teach your guy what you want.
我不希望你阻止我的问题。
I don't want you to stop my problems.
我希望你这样做。
I want you to do this instead.
作为给我的一个帮助，你愿意做吗？
As a favor to me, would you do it?
我不是关系中的救世主。
Not I'm god's gift to relationship.
这才是你需要的。
This is what you need.
不。
No.
作为给我的一个帮助，你愿意做吗？
As a favor to me, would you do it?
然后第三点，当这个男人开始这么做时，鼓励他。
And then three, once the guy starts to do it, encourage him.
别打击他。
Don't discourage him.
我们总是唉，太少了，太迟了。
We all oh, too little, too late.
你做到了。
You did it happen.
我告诉女性们，要庆祝玻璃杯里14%的水。
I tell women, celebrate the glass 14% full.
一周前它才只有5%满。
It was only 5% full a week ago.
嘿。
Hey.
你干得马马虎虎。
You did a half assed job.
干得好。
Good for you.
我们该怎么把另一半弄上去呢？
What are we gonna do to get the other half on?
但我们因为不愿变得脆弱并接受他人，反而在打击别人。
But we're discouraging people because we don't wanna be vulnerable and receive.
接受也是一种艺术。
There's an art to receiving.
所以，维系关系的双方都各有其艺术所在。
So there's an art on both sides of how to work a relationship.
我必须教女性如何更支持自己的伴侣，而不是更多地抱怨他们。
And I have to teach women how to be more empowering of their partner and less complaining of them.
我相信这一点，而这往往是她们需要做的功课。
And I believe in that, and that's that's often their work.
但你不能坐等伴侣做得完美。
But you can't sit around and wait for your partner to do it right.
你必须学会回应，比如周二那天，他们做得非常好。
You have to be able to respond whether on Tuesday, they do it beautifully.
周四他们可能是个该死的混蛋，但你依然得做出得体的回应。
On Thursday, they're a goddamn asshole, but you still have to respond well.
这是你自己的操守，主动以正直和智慧行事，而不受伴侣在跷跷板另一端行为的影响，这是一种巨大的自由。
This is your own integrity, and it's a great freedom to take it upon yourself to behave with integrity and skill independent of what your partner's doing on their side of the seesaw.
这并不总是有效，但这是你最好的机会。
It doesn't always work, but it's your best shot.
你不必成为他们不成熟的奴隶。
And you don't have to be a slave to their immaturity.
如果每次他们不成熟，你就跟着跳进泥潭，那你就是随风飘扬的旗帜。
If every time they're immature, you jump in the mud pit with them, you're a flag in their wind.
这令人解放。
It's liberating.
你现在就显得不成熟。
You're immature right now.
我五分钟之后也可能不成熟，但此刻我会用我的成熟来回应你的不成熟。
I could be immature five minutes from now, but I'm gonna meet your immaturity with my maturity right now.
这非常美好
That is a very beautiful
事情。
thing.
太棒了。
Amazing.
关于童年模式的问题，但我不想直接切入父母那部分，虽然我很想，我脑子里有一个非常粗略的模型，大致是：我们每个人都有一个内在小孩，或者说是自己身上孩子气的部分，其中有一部分是健康的，一部分是不健康的。
Question about childhood patterns, but rather than get right into the parents piece of it, which I want to, have this very crude model in my head that goes something like we all have an, like an inner child or a childlike part of ourselves, and there's a healthy part and an unhealthy part.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为据我所知，尤其是在与某人相处时，尤其是与伴侣在一起时，能够展现出你那种孩子气的一面，这真是很棒。
Because it's kind of wonderful, at least in my experience, to be in the company of someone, especially a romantic partner, where you can be in your kind of like childlike-
我称之为自然小孩。
I call that the natural child.
自然小孩，没错。
The natural child, right.
它是健康的、充满探索精神的、有趣的、甜蜜的，有时还带点调皮。
It's healthy, it's explorative, it's fun, it's sweet, and sometimes it's mischievous.
我确实观察到了这一点。
I've certainly observed that.
但它很可爱。
But it's lovable.
非常可爱。
It's very lovable.
然后还有不健康的那一面。
And then there's the unhealthy child.
它可能表现为任性、特权感，或者封闭自己等等。
And that could take the form of brattiness, entitlement, whatever, closing up.
我的意思是，它可能表现为各种各样的形式。
I mean, it could be any variety of things.
我想象着，听这场对话的很多人正处于一段关系中，也有很多人没有。
I imagine that a great number of people listening to this conversation are in relationship and a great number of them are not.
一个人如何靠自己去理解自己内心的这两部分？需要付出多少努力，做什么样的工作？
How much work and what kind of work can be done to understand those two parts of oneself on one's own?
即使你身处一段关系中，因为那个不健康的孩童部分一旦显现出来，也是非常危险的，是的。
Maybe even if you're in a relationship because that unhealthy child is a very dangerous thing to show up Yes.
在关系中。
In relationship.
它可能非常具有破坏性，而且速度极快。
It can be very destructive very fast.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，如果我是一个患者，一个客户，我不知道你们怎么称呼他们。
So if I were a patient, a client, I don't know what you call them.
你们
Do you
称他们为客户吗？
call them client?
客户，不是。
Customer no.
客户。
Clients.
客户。
Clients.
嗯。
Yeah.
如果我是客户，我只是说，好吧。
If I were a client and I just said, okay.
嗯。
Yeah.
我现在不想谈我的父母。
I I don't wanna talk about my parents right now.
我们可以以后再谈。
We can do that later.
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