必备：如何激发你的创造力 | 里克·鲁宾

欢迎收听《Huberman Lab 精华版》，在这里我们会回顾往期节目，为大家带来最有效、最实用的基于科学的心理健康、身体健康和表现提升工具。

Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

接下来是我与里克·鲁宾的对话。

And now for my discussion with Rick Rubin.

里克，今天很高兴你能来。

Great to have you here today, Rick.

谢谢你的邀请。

Thank you for having me.

这是我的荣幸。

It's a pleasure.

在所有科学话题中，尤其是神经科学领域，我承认创造力是最难把握的一个。

Of all the topics in science and in particular in neuroscience, I confess that creativity is the most difficult one to capture.

当我读你的书时，你举的那个例子，把想法和创造力比作云朵，这个比喻很有意思。

As I went into your book, the example that you give, this idea that ideas and creativity are a little bit like a cloud.

如果你在某个时刻看它，可能会觉得它像某种东西。

If you look at it at one moment, you might think that it looks like one thing.

但过一会儿再看，它可能就完全不一样了。

But then you look at it a moment later, it could be quite a bit different.

再过一个小时，它很可能就消失了。

And if you look at an hour later, it very well could be gone.

这个想法是怎么来的？它对你尝试——我不想说提取，而是说触及创造力——有什么帮助？

How did that come to you, and how does it serve you in trying to, I don't want to say extract, but trying to access creativity.

我觉得最好的理解方式就是把它当作一场梦。

I think the best way to think about it is like a dream.

就像你回想自己的梦，它们不一定有逻辑。

It's like if you think about your dreams, they don't necessarily make sense.

醒来的时候，你可能记得一部分，但不是全部。

When you wake up, you'll you might remember part, but not the whole thing.

然后如果你开始把它们写下来，它们会回来，而且可能对你来说还是没什么意义。

Then if you start writing them down, they'll come back and they may not make sense to you.

你知道，也许将来有一天，你能回头理解它们的意思，也可能理解不了。

You know, maybe someday in the future, you'll be able to look back and understand what they mean and maybe not.

艺术创作的过程大概就是这样。

And that's sort of how this the art making process works.

就像我们在创作的时候，是在寻找自己内心的感受。

It's like we're making things and we're looking for feeling in ourselves.

可能是兴奋或热情的感觉，可能是感兴趣，也可能是好奇，想了解更多。

It could be a feeling of excitement or enthusiasm, a feeling of interest, a feeling of curiosity, I wanna know more.

这不是一个理性的过程。

It's not an intellectual process.

这是另一回事。

It's a different thing.

我觉得语言不足以深入探讨创造力。

I think language is insufficient to to drill down on creativity.

它更接近魔法，而不是科学。

It's more it's closer to magic than it is science.

你觉得孩子是不是天生就比大人更有创造力？

Do you think kids are more are just by definition and by design more creative than adults?

是的。

Yes.

孩子很开放，没有什么包袱。

Kids are they're open, and they have no baggage.

他们没有任何信念体系。

They don't have any belief system.

他们不知道事情应该怎么运作。

They don't know how things are supposed to work.

他们只是看到眼前的东西。

They just see what is.

我们大多数人从无数个数据点中筛选，作为物种，首先是为了确保我们不会死、繁衍后代、填饱肚子，这些可能是首要的功能。

Most of us select from an endless number of data points available to us to well, as a as a species to make sure that we don't die and to procreate and to feed ourselves are probably the primary functions first.

然后我们学习什么是对的，什么是错的，也学习怎么去做某些事情。

And then we learn things about what's right and what's wrong, and we learn things about how to do certain things.

或者我们被某个做出我们喜欢作品的人启发，想模仿他们的方式去做。

Or we're inspired by someone who makes something we love and we want to do it the way they do it.

而所有这些都会削弱创作过程的纯粹性。

And all of those things undermine the purity of the creative process.

它们可以作为工具来提升你的技能，让你能够自己做到。

They can be tools to build your skill set to be able to do it yourself.

比如，如果你是个歌手，你可能会先模仿你喜欢的歌手一段时间来练好，然后最终找到自己的声音。

Like, if you're a a singer, you might imitate a singer you really like for a while to get good at it and then eventually come to find your own voice.

但如果你只有三岁或五岁，试着唱歌，你不会模仿任何人。

But if you're three years old or five year years old and you try singing, you're not singing like anyone else.

你是在用自己的声音唱。

You're you're singing with your own your own voice.

当你创作时，是基于未知来创作的。

And when you make something, you're making it based on not knowing.

我觉得我职业生涯早期有个优势，就是没有经验就开始做音乐，这很有帮助，因为我不知道自己打破了什么规则。

And I I think I had the advantage early in my career of starting making music without any experience, which was helpful because I didn't know what rules I was breaking.

我做的事情是别人不会去做的。

I was doing things that other people wouldn't do.

当某件事在创意上感觉对了，比如说在录音室里，或者你正在听别人发给你的东西。

When something feels creatively right, let's say in the studio or maybe even you're listening to something that somebody sent you.

再说一次，这可以是关于写作、喜剧、科学，或者播客。

And again, this could be about writing or comedy or, you know, science or podcasting for that matter.

你怎么说，继续往那个方向走，即使他们可能都没意识到自己做到了？

How do you say, keep going that way, when they might not even recognize that they did it?

我猜很多时候他们确实没意识到。

And I'm guessing a lot of times they don't.

我会处在一个环境里，当我们讨论它的时候，可以当场就参与进去。

I'll to be in a setting where as we're talking about it, we can engage with it in that moment.

比如说，我在制作你的新专辑，你放了一段给我听，我有些想法。

Let's say I was producing your new record and you played me something and I had some thoughts about it.

如果我把这些想法告诉你，可能对你没什么帮助。

It wouldn't be so helpful for me to tell you what those were.

我们最好等到一个能实际尝试的地方，看看效果如何。

It'd be better for us to wait till we were in a place where we could try things and see where it goes.

我不会只靠言语来表达。

I wouldn't rely on language to do it.

更像是提出一个可以执行的建议。

It would be more of a making a suggestion of something that's actionable.

我们试一下，然后就有更多数据了。

We try it and then we have more data.

就这么简单。

It's that simple.

我们上学的时候，很大程度上是为了让我们遵守规则。

So much of, you know, when we go to school, it's to get us to follow the rules.

但在艺术里就不一样了，因为规则就像脚手架，需要的时候可以拆掉。

And in art, it's different because the the rules are there as a scaffolding to be chipped away as need be.

有时候它们有用，有时候没用。

Sometimes they're helpful, sometimes they're not.

在面对别人的声音时，了解自己的感受而不自我怀疑，这可能是作为艺术家最需要练习的，或者说最需要培养的技能，就是知道自己的感受并接纳它。

Understanding how you feel in the face of other voices without second guessing yourself is probably the single most important thing to practice as an artist or skill set to develop as an artist is to know how you feel and own your feelings.

如果我为了商业想法而贬低自己的品味，那就完全违背了做这件事的初衷。

If I'm undermining my taste for some commercial idea or it it defeats the whole purpose of doing this.

这不是这个过程的重点。

This is not that's not what this process is about.

这个过程就是我做我自己，我向你展示我是谁，你可以喜欢也可以不喜欢。

This process is I'm doing me, and I'm showing you who I am, and you can like it or not.

但无论如何，这就是我的看法。

But either way, this is still how I see it.

大家好。

Hey, everyone.

为了庆祝我的新书《协议》的发布，我很高兴地告诉大家，我很快会举办三场现场活动。

To celebrate the launch of my new book entitled Protocols, I'm pleased to share that I'll be hosting three live events very soon.

第一场现场活动将于9月17日在纽约市的无线电城音乐厅举行。

The first live event is in New York City at Radio City Music Hall on September 17.

第二场活动在洛杉矶的杜比剧院，时间是10月8日。

The second event is in Los Angeles at the Dolby Theater on October 8.

第三场现场活动在旧金山的共济会礼堂，时间是10月28日。

And the third live event is in San Francisco at the Masonic on October 28.

在每场活动中，我都会讨论书里的内容，而且我最喜欢的部分是，直接回答你们观众的问题。

At each of these events, I'll be discussing topics from the book, and my favorite part, taking questions directly from you, the audience.

想买票的话，可以访问hubermanlab.com/events，并使用代码protocols获取提前购票资格。

To get tickets, you can go to hubermanlab.com/events and use the code protocols to get early access.

再说一遍，网址是hubermanlab.com/events，使用代码protocols就能提前购票。

Again, that's hubermanlab.com/events, and use the code protocols to get early access to tickets.

在你的书里，你再次描述了，当你把创作过程想象成云朵的时候。

In your book, you describe, again, when you're thinking about the creative process as the cloud.

对我来说，这真的就像一个非常有力的锚点。

For me, again, it serves as such a powerful anchor.

然后我会想到生物学，神经生物学，关于策略形成或策略执行的，然后几乎靠运气，或者说是奇迹，我翻到书后面几页，就看到描述说，动物在试图达成某个目标时，比如觅食、交配、找水源，这些生存需求，都需要狭窄的视觉焦点。

And then I think about the biology, the neurobiology of like strategy formation or strategy implementation, and then almost by sheer luck, or miraculously, I turn a few pages later into the book, and there's a description of how animals that are trying to accomplish something, eat, mate, find water, the requirements of living, it requires a narrow visual focus.

这是我们实验室特别着迷的事情，我也一直很着迷。

This is something my lab is kind of obsessed with, and I've been obsessed with.

在那种更狭窄的视觉聚焦下，我们知道行动方案也会变得更窄。

And in that more narrow visual focus, we know that the playbook becomes more narrow.

但到了某个时候，要想产生新的创意，就必须在某种程度上拓宽视野，或者拓宽思维。

Now at some point, in order to come up with a new creative idea, that means that broadening vision is essential in some way, or broadening thinking.

嗯，可能是拓宽，也可能是收窄，但关键是改变那个光圈，从标准状态变成呈现新的东西，这个东西你可能早就知道，但没意识到自己知道。

Well, it could either be a broadening or a narrowing, but it's changing the aperture from the standard to present something new that maybe you already knew but didn't know you knew it.

这和喜剧演员做的事情很像。

It's not unlike what a comedian does.

你知道，喜剧演员让你笑。

You know, comedian makes you laugh.

通常他们说的内容很夸张，但你知道他们说得对。

Usually, what they're saying, it's outrageous, but you know that it's right.

只是没人那样说，或者以前没人那样说过。

You know, just no one says it that way or no one has said it that way before.

但总是其中的真实感让人觉得好笑。

But it's always the truth in it that makes it funny.

就是发现一些一旦看到就觉得特别明显的事情，但好像别人都没注意到，或者没人指出来。

Recognizing something that seems really obvious once you see it, but seems like nobody else sees it or no one else points it out.

那你觉得现在，一个人能创作东西并且所谓的快速发布，这会不会有问题？

So do you think nowadays the fact that one can create something and quote unquote release it quickly?

我现在可以发到推特或者Instagram上，马上就能得到反馈，当然是外部的反馈，然后我可以根据这些反馈来调整。

I can put something out onto Twitter or Instagram now, and I will get immediate feedback, which is external feedback, of course, but then I can iterate on the basis of that feedback.

你觉得这对更大的创造力机会来说，是不是有问题的？

Do you think that's problematic for the larger opportunity for creativity?

我不觉得这是对还是错。

I don't think it's wrong or right.

这不过是更多的信息，你可以用，也可以不用，或者以有用的方式去用。

It's just, it's more information that you can use or not use and use it in a useful way.

而且，你知道，你可以做点东西发出去，然后大家可能不喜欢。

And, you know, you can make something and put it out and people could not like it.

然后你就会想，哦，他们还是没懂。好吧，我得再加大力度。

And you're like, oh, they still don't get it Here, I'm gonna I gotta go harder.

可能同时会有不同的情况发生，比如你在创作一个东西，你心里有它的样子。

There could be different stories that happen at the same time where you're making something and you have an idea of what it is.

然后其他人参与进来，可能对它有不一样的理解，他们喜欢它的原因和你不同，或者不喜欢它的原因也和你喜欢它的原因不一样。

And then other people engage with it and may have a different idea of what it is, and they like it for a different reason than you did or dislike it for a reason different than the reason you like it.

这些我们都控制不了。

We can't control any of those things.

我们唯一能控制的就是我们和自己作品之间的关系。

The only part of it that we can control is how we relate to the thing that we make.

任何外部信息，如果削弱了这种联系的清晰度，那对艺术来说可能是不好的，我是这么觉得的。

And any external information that undermines the clarity of that connection is probably bad for the art, is my is my guess.

我创作的东西，从来都是我自己喜欢的，或者是我作为粉丝觉得缺少的、想要的东西，而且没人做。

All I've ever tried to make was something I like or something that I felt like was missing as a fan that I wanted, and I nobody was making it.

所以我就自己来做。

So I'll I'll make it.

我听专辑或歌曲的时候，我觉得，总有一个时刻，它不再是策略制定或创意，而是策略执行。

When I listen to an album or a song, I mean, I have to assume that there, at some point, it becomes not strategy development or creativity, but strategy implementation.

比如歌曲会按这个顺序来，那什么时候你会决定，好了，现在该进入那种更专注的努力阶段了。

Like songs are going to come in this order, and like, at what point does one decide, okay, like now's the time to get into that more narrow focus of effort.

就像我们搞定了，就继续往前冲。

Like we've got it, let's run with this.

因为创作过程里有一部分是包装和收尾，那这部分对你来说是不是没那么有满足感，还是说它只是整个大过程的一部分？

Because there is a component of the creative process that involves packaging and finishing, and is that part less satisfying to you, or is it just all part of the same larger arc?

都是同一个过程的一部分，挺好的。

It's all part of the same, it's nice.

有一种很好的感觉。

There's a good feeling.

通常事情完成的时候，会有一种很好的感觉。

There's usually a good feeling when something is done.

这是一种承诺，因为在你宣布完成之前，你都可以继续实验和修改。

It's a commitment because up until the time that you say it's done, you can keep experimenting and changing it.

你知道吗，如果你觉得，嗯，也许明天我能做得更好，那它就没完成。

You know, if you if you think, well, maybe tomorrow I can make it better, then it's not finished.

而且你会一直这么想很久，你可以永远这样下去，永远不发布任何东西。

And you keep thinking that for a long time, you can do that forever and never never put out anything.

到了你准备好签字确认的时候，那种感觉很好。

Getting to the point where you're ready to sign off is a good feeling.

我在书里提到的一件事是，因为完成很难，因为玩起来很有趣，而且也许它还不是最好的，你知道，用下一个项目作为动力来完成你现在正在做的这个。

One of the things I talk about in the book is because it is a difficult thing to do, because it's fun to play and it's fun to maybe it's not the best it could be yet, you know, to use whatever the next project is going to be as motivation to finish the one you're working on now.

我对你的创作过程非常感兴趣。

I'm very interested in, you know, your process.

当你从一个项目转到另一个项目，而且你知道你要和别人合作时，你有没有一个流程来清除日常的杂念，上周的工作，以及正在发生的事情？你是怎么清除这些干扰的？

When it comes to going from project to project, and you know you're going be doing work with somebody, do you have a process for removing the functions of the day, and what you were doing last week, and what's going on, and how do you clear the static?

你觉得哪些操作步骤可能更具普适性，无论听众在非洲哪里，

What are some of the operational steps that you think might be more generalizable to, regardless of where somebody in, you know, Africa's listening to

我觉得，当我投入一个特定项目时，不管是什么，我都会在那段时间里全身心投入，不管是二十分钟还是五个小时，不管是什么，完全专注，没有任何外界干扰。

this I would say when I engage in a particular project, whatever it is, I I dedicate all of myself for that period of time, whatever it is, whether it be twenty minutes or whether it be five hours, whatever it is, total focus and no outside distraction whatsoever.

当我离开那个过程时，我会尽量不去想它。

And when I leave that process, I do my best not to think about it when I'm away from it.

我不会带任何材料。

I don't bring any materials with me.

我不会带着未完成的作品离开工作室，也不会在白天花时间听它们或寻找灵感。

I don't leave the studio with works in progress and spend time listening to them during the day or looking for ideas.

当我不直接参与时，我会尽量远离它。

I I stay as far away from it when I'm not directly engaging in it as possible.

在最好的情况下，我会有其他事情让我完全投入其中。

And in the best of situations, I have something else to totally engage myself in in between.

所以，与其花五个小时做项目A，然后离开什么都不做，我更希望在做项目A之前，全身心投入到项目B、C和D中。

So instead of working on project a for five hours and then leaving and doing nothing, I'm hoping to engage in a project b or b, c, and d with all of myself before going back to project a again.

即使你没有直接参与，你觉得你的潜意识会不会在思考它？

Even though you're disengaged, do you believe that your subconscious is working it through?

我觉得会。

I believe so.

我相信是的。

I believe so.

而且我觉得，一般来说，反复琢磨一个问题并不是解决问题的办法。

And I think in general to stew over a problem is not the way to solve a problem.

我觉得应该轻松地看待问题。

Think to hold the problems lightly.

当我说问题的时候，你知道，当我们开始一个项目时，每个项目一开始都有一个问号。

And when I say a problem, you know, when we're we're starting a project, there's a question mark at the beginning of every project.

我每次开始新项目时总是很焦虑，因为我不知道会发生什么。

I I I'm always anxious when I start a new project because I have no idea what's going to happen.

我从来不知道。

I never know.

总是有一种焦虑感，因为我知道无论发生什么，都完全不在我的掌控之中。

There's always a sense of anxiety because I know whatever's gonna happen is completely out of my control.

要么出现有趣的东西，要么没有，然后我们会跟着它走，不管它通向哪里。

Something either interesting or not will appear, and then we're gonna follow that wherever it goes.

在找到可以跟随的东西之前，我会非常焦虑。

And until something appears for us to follow, I have a lot of anxiety.

尽管我知道它每次都会出现，从来没有不出现的时候，但就是有那种感觉。

Even though I know even though it has never not come, you know, it has come every time, but there's something about it.

因为我也觉得可能有人期待我能让它发生，但我知道那是不可能的。

Because I also feel like there might be expectation on me that I'm gonna make it happen, and I know that's not happening.

事情不是那样运作的。

That's not how it works.

我想快速休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商之一，LMNT。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.

LMNT是一种电解质饮料，包含你所需的一切，不含任何多余成分。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

这意味着电解质，钠、镁和钾，含量恰当，但没有糖。

That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts, but no sugar.

适当的水分补充对大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。

Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.

即使是轻微的脱水也会影响认知和身体表现。

Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.

摄入足够的电解质也很重要。

It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.

电解质，钠、镁和钾，对你身体所有细胞的功能至关重要，尤其是你的神经元或神经细胞。

The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.

把LMNT溶解在水里喝，很容易确保你获得足够的水分和电解质。

Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.

为了确保我摄入足够的水分和电解质，我早上醒来时会把一包Element溶解在大概16到32盎司的水里，然后基本上一起床就喝。

To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of Element in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.

我在做任何体育锻炼时也会喝溶解在水里的Element，尤其是在热天，我出汗很多，流失水分和电解质的时候。

I'll also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.

LMNT有很多口味，都很好喝。

LMNT has a bunch of great tasting flavors.

我喜欢树莓味，也喜欢柑橘味。

I love the raspberry, I love the citrus flavor.

现在，LMNT推出了一款限量版柠檬水口味，真的超级好喝。

Right now, LMNT has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.

我不想说我最喜欢哪一个，但这款柠檬水口味和我最喜欢的另一款——树莓或西瓜——不相上下。

I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, is raspberry or watermelon.

再说一次，我真的没法只选一个口味。

Again, I can't pick just one flavor.

我全都喜欢。

I love them all.

如果你想试试Element，可以访问drinkelement.com/huberman，也就是drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任何Element饮品混合包，就能免费领取一份Element样品包。

If you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman, spelleddrinklmnt.com/huberman, to claim a free Element sample pack with a purchase of any Element drink mix.

再说一遍，访问drinkelement.com/huberman就能领取免费样品包。

Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

所以，我一直在想的是，我脑海中想象着连续体的两端，一端是相当专注的聚焦，训练、训练、策略实施、培养技艺、打磨技艺。

So what I keep coming back to is that I'm imagining in my mind kind of two ends of the continuum, one that is about fairly narrow focus, training, training, strategy implementation, cultivating craft, building craft.

而另一端就是这个，云。

And then the other side is this, the cloud.

所以我们把这个云朵拿过来，然后决定它是什么。

And so we're taking this cloud and we're deciding what things are.

对。

Yes.

我们一生中每天都在做这件事，对看到的一切都是这样。

We go through our lives doing this all day with everything we see.

如果是不认识或不熟悉的东西，第一反应就是，这不太对劲。

If it's something we don't know and something we're not familiar with, first thing is, is this doesn't make sense.

然后我们就会不假思索地编一个故事来解释刚才发生的事，一个假设。

Then what we do is, without thinking, we create a story that explains what just happened, a hypothetical.

哦，也许他跑是因为他的狗跑了，他在追他的狗。

Oh, maybe he's running because his dog ran away and he's chasing his dog.

也许这就是他跑的原因。

Maybe that's why he's running.

而一旦我们有了这个想法，我们就会放松下来，因为现在这不仅仅是一个人在跑，这很奇怪，而是一个人在跑，可能总是在追他的狗。

And as soon as we have that thought of what it might be, we relax because now it's not just a guy running and this is weird, but it's a guy running, always probably running after his dog.

然后我们就把那个自己编出来的故事，当成真实发生的事记下来了，甚至都没意识到自己编了故事。

And now we register that story that we just made up without even knowing we were making it up as what happened.

然后到了那天晚些时候，如果有人问，哎，你看到那个从箱子里跑出来的人了吗？

And then later in the day, if someone says, yeah, do you see that guy running out of the box?

然后你就会说，对，他在追他的狗。

Like, yeah, was chasing his dog.

我看到了。

I saw that.

而且你根本不会意识到，那可能只是你编的一个假设故事，是让你能继续往前走的最初的解释。

And you won't even realize that it was the maybe hypothetical story that was the first possible explanation that allowed you to continue walking.

我们的一生都在对事情做出反应，编造一个我们认为可能发生的故事，却不知道自己在这么做，然后余生都像那个编造的事情真的发生了一样去生活，而我们永远不知道。

Our whole lives are reacting to things, making up a story of what we think may have happened without realizing that's what we're doing, and then living the rest of our lives as if that thing that we made up really happened, and we never know.

这就导致我们其实知道不了太多。

That leads us to we can't know much.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I'm saying?

我们对一切事物的认知分辨率都太低了。

Our resolution is so low on everything.

我们只是在拼命抓住救命稻草。

We're grasping at straws.

我们根本不知道。

We have no idea.

我们根本不知道。

We have no idea.

而认识到这一点，其实蕴含着巨大的力量。

And there's great power in knowing that.

因为如果你觉得自己知道发生了什么，那你很可能被骗了。

Because if you think you know what's going on, chances are you're being deceived.

不是有人故意骗你，而是他们只是告诉你他们看到的东西，而他们自己也不知道真相。

Not because somebody is deceiving you, but because they're telling you what they see and they don't know.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这一切都是，你懂我的意思吗？

It's all do you know what I'm saying?

全都是编出来的。

It's all made up.

我们所知道的一切，全都是编出来的。

Everything that we everything we know is made up.

也许吧。

Maybe.

也许是真的。

Maybe it's true.

这就说到职业摔角了。

This brings us to pro wrestling.

这就是为什么职业摔角比我们看的任何其他内容都更接近现实。

It's it's it's the reason that pro wrestling is closer to reality than anything else we can watch or any other content.

我们知道它是编出来的。

It's we know it's made up.

我们知道那是一场表演。

We know that it's a performance.

那是讲故事。

It's storytelling.

其实所有事情都是这样，只不过我们觉得摔角是假的，世界是真的。

And that's how everything is, except we think wrestling's fake and the world is real.

摔角是真的，世界才是假的。

Wrestling's real and the world's fake.

我确实想问你关于摔角的事。

I do want to ask you about wrestling.

我有些问题具体是关于摔角的，但实际上是关于过程。

So I have questions specifically about wrestling, but it's really about process.

对。

Yeah.

你和摔角之间到底是什么关系？

What is the deal with your relationship to wrestling?

我觉得它保持了那种玩味的感觉，一切皆有可能。

I think it maintains that kind of playfulness, anything is possible.

在摔跤中，我们总是期待意想不到的事情发生。

We expect the unexpected all the time in wrestling.

这是一种在没有竞争的情况下感受运动活力的方式。

And it's a way to have a kind of a feeling of the energy of a sport with no competition.

每个人都在合作，尽力呈现最好的表演。

It's everyone is working together to put on the best show they can.

所以它更像芭蕾舞，而不是体育赛事。

So it's more like a ballet than it is like a sporting event.

我其实觉得你描述摔跤的方式，就是那种运动的能量。

I actually think the way you describe wrestling as, you know, it's the energy of the sport.

不在于这个动作或那个动作，也不在于谁赢谁输，而在于那种能量。

It's not the whether or not it's this move or that move, or who wins or who loses, it's the energy.

我猜正是那种能量在你作为观众时被激发出来。

And I'm guessing it's the energy that it creates in you as an observer.

对。

Yes.

它在我心里激起的能量，以及它在这个看似一切都不真实的世界里，却真实地做自己，这一点很打动我。

It's the energy it creates in me and the reality that it's honest in what it is in a world where seemingly nothing is honest at what it is.

从某种程度上说，这让人感到安慰。

In some ways, it's comforting.

而且它依然带着那种神秘感，比如，我还会想，那到底是不是真的，因为我们永远无法真正知道。

And there's still this mystery of like, well, I wonder if that's true or not because we never really know.

有人受伤了。

Someone gets hurt.

他们是真的摔断了背，还是只是去度假了？

Did they really break their back, or are they just going on vacation?

我们不知道。

We don't know.

我们永远不会知道。

We'll never know.

真有意思。

Fascinating.

你早上醒来的时候，脑子里是立刻就有条理，还是喜欢那种云开雾散的感觉？

When you wake up in the morning, are your thoughts immediately structured or do you enjoy the kind of clearing of the clouds?

我醒来是个缓慢的过程。

It's a slow process for me to wake up.

而且我喜欢这样。

And I like that.

我不喜欢太快就投入太多。

I like not engaging too much too soon.

是不是随着一天过去，思维会变得更有条理？

Does it become more structured as the day goes on?

你的思考会不会围绕项目和……

Does your thinking become more structured around projects and I

在那之后，我会试着处理那些需要处理的事情，为上班做准备。

try to deal with things that need dealing with after that and in preparation for going to work.

然后去上班的时候，就有点像那种自由的状态，我又在期待有什么好东西出现，欢迎它，留意它，也许试着去促成它，但我知道我没法让它发生。

And then when I go to work, it's more like this free thing where I'm, again, hoping something good comes, welcoming something good, paying attention and maybe trying to will it to happen, but knowing I don't have the ability to make it happen.

我只能在它出现的时候在场，准备好迎接它。

I can just be present for it and be ready if it does arrive.

显然，截止日期是很重要的。

Obviously, deadlines are relevant.

一天中的时间段也很关键，对吧？

Time of day, right?

一天里能保持那种状态或者那种随时准备接收的状态的时间是有限的。

There's only so many hours in the day where one can stay in the groove or this like readiness to receive.

你有没有遇到过那种拼命赶工的状态？

Have you ever found yourself in that mode where you're kind of grinding?

就像，好吧，今晚不回家吃饭了，接下来，你知道的，我们要熬夜，把咖啡壶煮上那种。

Like, here we are, like, okay, I'm not coming home for dinner tonight, it's the next, you know, we're going to push, like put on the coffee pot kind of thing.

很多，在我人生中很多次，现在没那么多了。

A lot, a lot in the, over the course of my life a lot, not as much now.

我在写这本书的过程中发现，我们不需要用同样的方式对待工作的不同阶段，而以前我是这么做的。

And one of the things that I discovered through working on the book was we're not required to treat the different phases of work in the same way, whereas before I did.

以前，所有事情都处于一种开放的状态，时间安排都很宽松。

Before everything was in this state of play, everything had a wide open time schedule.

事情该发生的时候自然会发生。

It happens when it happens.

如果花两年或三年时间，那也没关系。

If it takes two years or three years, it doesn't matter.

重点不在于时间。

It's not about that.

重点只在于这件事必须做好。

It's only about this thing has to be great.

在写这本书的过程中，我逐渐意识到，工作确实有不同的阶段。

And what I came to realize in working on the book is that there there are different phases.

第一个阶段是收集素材的阶段，这基本上贯穿于生活的方方面面。

And the first phase is this seed collecting phase, which is kind of an ongoing part of life in general.

我不管有没有在做什么项目，都会一直这样。

I do that always whether I'm whether I'm working on something or not.

我一直处于收集种子的阶段，没有什么截止日期，只要是我感兴趣、想深入了解，或者觉得有潜力变成什么东西的，我都会去关注。

I'm always in the seed collecting phase, and there's no deadline or anything that interests me that I think I wanna learn more about or has potential to be something anything.

有时候听到什么，就会想，我想多读点这方面的东西，或者想，不知道有没有相关的电影。

Something I hear something, think, I'd like to read more about that, or I wonder if I wonder if there's a movie about that.

有没有关于这个的电影呢？

Is there a movie about that?

如果没有，也许可以拍一部。

If not, maybe there's a movie to be made.

你懂吧？

You know?

就像我说的，我希望生活中有这样的东西。

Like, again, I want this is something I want in my life.

看看它存不存在。

Let's see if it exists.

如果它不存在，那可能就是一个值得去追求的有趣方向。

If it doesn't exist, then maybe that's something interesting to pursue.

但我知道这个愿望是存在的，因为我自己就有。

But I know that the desire is there because I have it.

所以在收集种子的阶段，没有截止日期。

So in the seed phase, there's no deadlines.

这是一个完全开放的过程。

It's just a wide open part.

下一个阶段叫做实验阶段，我们开始尝试，看看这些种子想长成什么。

And then the next phase is called the experimentation phase where you we start experimenting to see what the seeds wanna do.

你参与其中，但并不是真正在主导行动。

You're involved, but you're not really dictating the action.

你在为某件事的发生搭建舞台，但重点还不是你。

You're you're setting the stage for something to happen, but it's not about you yet.

就像你种下种子，浇水，确保它晒到太阳，然后等待。

It'd be like the equivalent of you'd plant the seed, you would water it, you would make sure it was in the sun, and you'd wait.

所以你参与了，但你不能让它生长，你知道吗？

So you're involved, but you can't make it grow, you know?

然后当它发芽、生长，或者变成一株植物时，你就可以看着这些植物，比如，好吧，这株植物怎么样，它的潜力是什么？

And then when it sprouts and it grows and, or if it turns into a plant, then you can look at the plants like, okay, how does this plant, what's the potential of this plant?

然后第三个阶段就是打磨阶段，就像，好吧，我有这株植物，也许我会修剪它，或者我会把它和其他植物结合起来，做出别的东西。

And then the and then that the third phase is the crafting phase where it's like, okay, I have this plant, maybe I'm gonna trim it, or maybe I'm gonna combine it with these other plants to make some something else with it.

现在它就像你拥有的材料了。

Now it's like material that you have.

最后是完成或收尾阶段，也就是最终编辑，达到它的最终版本。

And then finally is the the completion or or finishing phase, which is the final edit, getting to the version of it.

那个版本就是你可以与世界分享的版本，如果你打算这么做的话。

The version of it that's the one that you can share with the world if if that's something you're gonna do.

我意识到，当你进入完成阶段时，你可以设定一个截止日期。

And I've come to realize that by the time you're going into the completion phase, you can have a deadline.

而且这不会损害项目。

And it won't hurt the project.

事实上，这可能对项目有帮助。

In fact, it might help the project.

我以前不知道这一点。

And I didn't know that before.

所以我做过一些项目，它们持续的时间比实际需要的更长，而且可能对项目不是最有利的，因为我不知道这一点。

So I've worked on projects that have gone longer than they necessarily needed to and maybe not in the best interest of the project because I didn't know that.

我不理解那个时间安排，因为我太清楚在实验阶段不能有截止日期，所以我以为整个项目都是这样。

I didn't understand that that the timing of that because I because I am so aware of the necessity in the experimental phase to not have a deadline that I assumed that that held through the whole project.

这不是一个清晰的阶段，第一阶段结束然后开始第二阶段，第二阶段结束然后开始第三阶段。

It's not a clear phase one finishes and then you start phase two, phase two finishes and then you start phase three.

你会在它们之间来回切换。

You move back and forth between them.

我一直在收集种子。

I'm collecting seeds all the time.

我一直处于第一阶段。

I'm always in phase one.

而且可能在一定程度上，总会有某种实验在进行，也许不是现在，但如果某件事在我想要研究的事情清单上，希望我能抽出时间去做些实验，看看它们能变成什么。

And then probably to some degree, there's always some version of experimentation going on, maybe not now, but if something's on a list of things I want to look at, hopefully I'll get get to the list and give them some experimentation and see what they can turn into.

然后如果它们真的变成了什么，就会进入打磨阶段，这时候更像是，好吧，现在我有了这个东西。

And then if they do turn into something, then they get to the crafting phase where it's more, okay, now I have this thing.

我对这类东西了解多少？

What do what do I know about this kind of thing?

我能把它和什么搭配？

What can I match this with?

我能用它做什么？

What can I use this for?

我作为工匠怎么参与进去？

How can I be involved as a craftsman?

在打磨阶段结束时，或者深入打磨阶段时，你就能看到尽头了。

By the end of the crafting phase or deep into the crafting phase, you can start seeing the end.

你知道，你能看到终点，然后你甚至能决定终点。

You know, you can start seeing an end, and then you can even dictate an end.

但我建议，如果你要定截止日期，就只为你自己定，不要为别人定。因为如果在过程中有了新发现，你意识到，哦，这其实可以比我预想的好得多，但我需要更多时间，而你设定了公开的截止日期，那就很难调整了。

But I recommend if you do just dictate it for you, not for anyone else, because if something comes up where you learn, if you set a deadline, a public deadline, and then a new discovery happens along the way and you realize, oh, this could actually be much better than I thought, but I need more time.

如果你设定了截止日期，就很难做到这一点。

It's harder to do that if you set the deadline.

我想快速休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor AG1.

我很高兴地告诉大家，AG1刚刚推出了他们的最新配方，AG1 Pro。

I'm excited to share that AG1 has just launched their newest formulation, AG1 Pro.

AG1 Pro在原有临床验证的AG1配方基础上——包含维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原——新增了三种重要成分：一水肌酸、钙HMB和锌肌肽。

AG1 Pro takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients, creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine.

每份含有五克一水肌酸，有助于支持肌肉力量和表现，以及大脑健康。

Each serving has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance, as well as brain health.

钙HMB有助于肌肉恢复，减少肌肉分解，锌肌肽则有助于支持和改善肠道内壁。

Calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.

这三种成分都有强有力的科学依据支持。

All three of these ingredients have compelling science to support them.

所以我非常高兴看到它们被加入到现有的AG1配方中。

And therefore I love seeing them added to the existing AG1 formula.

你们大多数人都知道，我每天服用AG1已经将近十四年了。

As most of you know, I've been taking AG1 every day for nearly fourteen years now.

我早在知道什么是播客之前就开始服用它了。

I started taking it long before I even knew what a podcast was.

这是一款很棒的产品，现在新的AG1 Pro配方让它变得更好。

It's a great product and it's now made even better with the new AG1 Pro formula.

如果你想尝试AG1 Pro，可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman，获取特别优惠。

If you would like to try AG1 Pro, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

AG1会在你首次订阅时免费赠送一瓶Omega-3辅酶Q10。

AG1 is giving away a free bottle of omega three coenzyme q ten with your first subscription.

再次提醒，访问drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅AG1即可免费获得一瓶Omega-3辅酶Q10。

Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of omega three coenzyme q ten with your first AG1 subscription.

关于自我怀疑的那一章，我觉得特别有意思。

The chapter on self doubt was really interesting to me.

我读一下它的第一句话，那就是自我怀疑存在于我们每个人心中。

I'll read the first sentence of it, which is that self doubt lives in all of us.

虽然我们可能希望它消失，但它存在是为了帮助我们。

And while we may wish it was gone, it is there to serve us.

接着它描述了如何与自我怀疑共舞。

And it goes on to describe how to dance with self doubt.

随着一个人在技艺上越来越精湛，你可以想象自我怀疑会减少。

As one gets better at their craft, you can imagine self doubt goes down.

我觉得这是很多人的看法，对吧？

I think that's the perception of a lot of people, right?

你越做越好，自信就上升，自我怀疑就下降。

You get better at what you're doing, self confidence goes up, self doubt goes down.

但我想你我都认识不少成功人士，他们知道往往情况恰恰相反，人们感到压力，因为成功了一次，现在还得再来一次。

But I think you and I both know a number of people who are successful enough to know that oftentimes there's a mirror image to that where people feel pressure because they did it once, now they got to do it again.

自我怀疑就像是对自己的一种审视。

Self doubt is a it's like a it's a check on yourself.

它要么真的很有帮助，要么会拖你后腿。

It can either be really helpful or it can undermine you.

所以这是我们每个人都有的东西。

So it's something we all have.

如果我们让它拖垮我们，那我们就什么都做不成，那可就不好了。

And if we let it undermine us, then we don't make anything, and that's not good.

但当它作为我们生活中的一个平衡工具时，它起着很大的作用。

But when used as a a balancing tool in our lives, it serves a great function.

我觉得书里那句话说得对，你可以通过怀疑自己来成就伟大的作品，你知道，成就杰作。

I think the the phrases in the book, you can doubt your way to a great work, you know, to a masterpiece.

你有没有遇到过那种现场效果特别好，但录音里就是不行的那种音乐？

Have you ever encountered music that really works well live but just does not work in a recording?

你不用点名道姓。

You don't have to name names.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得不是这样。

I don't think so.

我觉得可能有些艺术家现场很棒，但从来没在录音里把那种感觉录好过。

I feel like maybe there are some artists who are great live who've never captured it well on record.

感恩而死乐队就是个好例子，我觉得他们的专辑并不是他们的强项。

The Grateful Dead's a good example of a band where I feel like their albums are not their strong point.

但如果你听他们的现场录音，会发现那些录音真的很有意思，而且每场都不一样。

But there, if you hear live recordings, they're really interesting and really different from each other.

而感恩而死乐队之所以有趣，部分原因就在于他们的不可预测性。

And that's kind of part of what makes the Grateful Dead interesting is their unpredictability.

他们在寻找某种东西，嗯。

They're looking for something Mhmm.

有时候他们能找到。

And sometimes they find it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果你在他们找到的那一刻在场，那感觉真的很激动。

And if you're there when they find it, it feels exciting.

这不仅仅是照着剧本走。

It's not just following a script.

就像是真的有事情在发生。

It's like something is really happening.

这是一个真实的瞬间。

It's a it's a real moment.

我在录音室里追求的就是创造真实的瞬间，当你听到的时候，它们不一定听起来完美。

Something that I aim for in the studio is to create real moments that when you hear them, they don't necessarily sound perfect.

它们听起来像是真的发生过的事情。

They sound like something that really happened.

而在那个瞬间，确实发生了些什么，那是一个特别的时刻。

And in that moment, something happened, and it's a special moment.

这其实也是爵士乐运作的方式。

It's it's really what it's how jazz works as well.