要点：如何构建、维护与修复肠道健康 | Justin Sonnenburg博士

欢迎来到Huberman实验室精华版，我们将重温往期节目，为您带来最有效、最具实操性的科学工具，助力心理健康、身体健康与表现提升。

Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.

我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院神经生物学与眼科学教授。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

现在开始我与博士的对话。

And now for my discussion with Doctor.

Justin Sonnenberg。

Justin Sonnenberg.

Justin，非常感谢你能来参加节目。

Justin, thanks so much for being here.

很高兴来到这里。

Great to be here.

在微生物组领域，我完全是个新手。

I am a true novice when it comes to the microbiome.

所以我想从一个非常基础的问题开始：什么是微生物组？

So I'd like to start off with a really basic question, which is what is the microbiome?

首先需要澄清术语，微生物组（microbiome）和微生物群（microbiota）这两个词经常被互换使用来指代我们的微生物群落，今天我也会交替使用这两个术语。

I think, just to start off with clarifying terminology, microbiome and microbiota quite often are used to refer to our microbial community interchangeably, and I'll probably switch between those two terms today.

另一个重要认知是，这些微生物不仅存在于肠道中，它们遍布我们全身。

The other important thing to realize is that these microbes are not just in our gut, but they're all over our body.

它们存在于鼻腔、口腔、皮肤——基本上任何身体与外界接触的部位（当然包括消化道内部）都有微生物定植。

They're in our nose, they're in our mouths, they're on our skin, basically anywhere that the environment can get to in our body, which includes inside our digestive tract, of course, is colonized with microbes.

其中绝大部分微生物都栖息在远端肠道和结肠中。

And the vast majority of these are in our distal gut and in our colon.

因此这被称为肠道微生物群或肠道微生物组。

And so this is the gut microbiota or gut microbiome.

这个群落的密度令人震惊。

And the density of this community is astounding.

当你拉远视角时，会看到类似肠道内消化中的粪便物质；但放大到微观层面观察微生物时，会发现它们紧密排列、首尾相连。

You start off with a zoomed out view and you see something that looks like fecal material that digest inside the gut, and you zoom in and you start to get to the microscopic level and see the microbes, they are just packed side to side, end to end.

这是个极度密集的细菌群落，几乎像生物膜一样——据估算粪便中约30%至50%的成分都是微生物。

It's a super dense bacterial community, almost like a biofilm, to the point where it's thought that around 30% of fecal matter is microbes, 30 to 50%.

这是一个极其密集的微生物群落。

So it's an incredibly dense microbial community.

我们说的是数万亿个微生物细胞。

We're talking of trillions of microbial cells.

所有这些微生物细胞，如果你开始了解它们并观察它们的种类，肠道中可能分布着数百到上千种。

And all those microbial cells, if you start to get to know them and see who they are, break out in the gut probably to hundreds to a thousand species.

其中大部分是细菌，但也有许多其他生命形式存在。

Most of these are bacteria, but there are a lot of other life forms there.

有古菌，这些类似细菌的微小微生物，但它们有所不同。

There are archaea, which are little microbes that are bacteria like, but they're different.

还有真核生物。

There are eukaryotes.

我们通常认为肠道中的真核生物是寄生虫之类的东西，但其实有真核生物、真菌，还有一些微小病毒。

So we commonly think of eukaryotes in the gut as something like a parasite, but there are eukaryotes, there are fungi, there are also little viruses.

还有这些感染细菌细胞的噬菌体。

There are these bacteriophages that infect bacterial cells.

这些病毒的数量实际上以10比1的比例超过细菌。

And those actually outnumber the bacteria like 10 to one.

所以它们无处不在，会杀死细菌。

So they're just everywhere there, they kill bacteria.

因此存在着这些非常有趣的捕食者与被捕食者互动。

And so there's these really interesting predator prey interactions.

但总体而言，这是一个极其密集、复杂且动态的生态系统。

But overall, it's just this really dense, complex, dynamic ecosystem.

新生儿体内能检测到微生物群吗？

Are microbiota seen in newborns?

换句话说，它们是从哪里来的？

In other words, where do they come from?

我冒昧问一句，它们是从哪个方向进入人体的？

And dare I ask, what direction do they enter the body?

已有一些研究探讨了子宫内是否存在微生物以及微生物是否在胎儿体内定殖。

There have been some studies that have looked at whether there are microbes in the womb and microbes colonizing the fetus.

关于这一点存在一些争议，但总体来看，这并不是微生物定植过程中的主要部分。

And there's some debate about this, but overall it looks like that's not a big part of the equation of microbial colonization.

因此，每当一个婴儿出生时，就形成了一个全新的生态系统。

And so each time an infant is born, it's this new ecosystem.

这就像从海洋中升起的一座无人岛屿，突然间所有生物都争先恐后地抢占这片开放领地。

It's like an island rising up out of the ocean that has no species on it, and suddenly there's this land rush for this open territory.

这个发育过程可能走向许多不同的轨迹，因为我们的微生物群具有极强的可塑性和适应性，而这些轨迹可能受到生命早期各种因素的影响。

There also are a lot of different trajectories that developmental process can take, because our microbiota is so malleable and so plastic, and those trajectories can be affected by all sorts of factors in early life.

举个例子，无论是剖腹产还是自然分娩，剖腹产婴儿的肠道微生物群实际上更像人类皮肤，而非产道、阴道微生物群或母亲的粪便微生物群。

So an example is whether an infant is born by C section or born vaginally, infants that are born by C section actually have a gut microbiota that looks more like human skin than it does like either the birth canal, the vagina microbiota, or the mother's stool microbiota.

除此之外，你是母乳喂养还是配方奶喂养，家里是否养宠物，是否接触过抗生素，所有这些因素都可能改变那个发育过程，并最终改变你一生的微生物特征。

Compound on top of that, whether you're breastfed or formula fed, whether your family has a pet or doesn't have a pet, whether you're exposed to antibiotics, there are all these factors that really can change that developmental process and really change your microbial identity eventually in life.

我们从动物研究中得知，根据生命早期获得的微生物，你可以引导生物体的免疫系统、新陈代谢或其他生物学部分走向完全不同的发育轨迹。

We know from animal studies that depending upon the microbes that you get early in life, you can send the immune system or metabolism of an organism or other parts of their biology in totally different developmental trajectory.

因此，生命早期定植的微生物确实可能改变你的生物学特性。

So what microbes you're colonized with early in life can really change your biology.

我怎么知道我的微生物组是健康还是不健康？

How do I know if my microbiome is healthy or unhealthy?

背景因素非常重要。

Context matters a lot.

对一个人或一个人群健康的状态，对另一个人或人群可能并不健康。

What's healthy for one person or one population may not be healthy for another person or population.

我要说的是这个问题没有单一答案，但有一些非常重要的考量因素。

And I will say that there's no single answer to this, but there's some really important considerations.

或许讨论这个问题最好的方式，是回溯人类微生物组计划的起源——这是美国国立卫生研究院启动的项目。

Perhaps the best way to start talking about this is to go back to the inception of the Human Microbiome Project, which was this program that NIH started.

他们在2008年投入了大量资金进行2000项研究。

They invested a lot of money in 2008, 2000 research.

当时已明显看出这不仅关乎人类生物学的好奇心，很可能对我们的健康至关重要。

It was becoming evident at that point that this was not just a curiosity of human biology, that it was probably really important for our health.

通过这些研究，我们真正开始认识到肠道微生物组存在巨大的个体差异性。

Through those studies, we really started to get the image that there is this tremendous individuality in the gut microbiome.

因此，在项目初步阶段后就对健康微生物群下结论确实非常困难。

And so it's really hard to start drawing conclusions after initial pass of that project of what is a healthy microbiome.

但同时我们也开始意识到，有研究正在记录传统人群（如狩猎采集者、农村农业人口）的肠道微生物群。

But the other thing that we started to realize at the same time, there were studies going on documenting the gut microbiome of traditional populations of humans, hunter gatherers, rural agricultural populations.

从健康角度来看这些研究结果令人震惊——这些人虽然生活方式迥异却都很健康，而他们的微生物群与健康美国人的微生物群截然不同。

And those studies were really mind blowing from the perspective of all these people are healthy, they're living very different lifestyles, and their microbiome doesn't look anything like a healthy American microbiome.

因此一种可能是：在工业化世界中，我们拥有与传统人群不同的微生物群，这种微生物群很好地适应了我们当前的生活方式，因此在工业化社会背景下是健康的。

And so one possibility is that in the industrialized world, we have a different microbiome from traditional populations, and that microbiome is well adapted to our current lifestyle, and therefore healthy in the context of an industrialized society.

这其中很可能存在真实的成分。

And there probably are elements of that that are true.

但另一种可能是：这种微生物群已经偏离正轨，在抗生素使用和工业化饮食（西方饮食）相关问题的影响下正在恶化。

But another possibility is that this is a microbiome that's gone off the rails, that it is deteriorating in the face of antibiotic use and all the problems associated with industrialized diet, Western diet.

尽管人类微生物组计划记录的是健康人群（健康美国人）的微生物群，但他们实际记录的可能是已被扰乱的微生物群，这种微生物群正使人易患各种炎症和代谢性疾病。

And that even though the human microbiome project documented the microbiome of healthy people, healthy Americans, that what they really may have been documenting there is a perturbed microbiota that's really predisposing people to a variety of inflammatory and metabolic diseases.

现在，我相信你们很多人都听我说过我服用AG1已超过十年，这确实是事实。

By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade, and indeed that's true.

我早在2012年开始服用AG1，并且至今仍坚持每天服用的原因在于，据我所知，AG1是市场上品质最高、营养覆盖最全面的基础膳食补充剂。

The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day is because AG1 is to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还包含益生菌、益生元和适应原，既能弥补饮食中可能存在的营养缺口，又能为高强度生活提供支持。

What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet while also providing support for a demanding life.

鉴于AG1所含的益生菌和益生元成分，它还有助于维持健康的肠道微生物群。

Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.

肠道微生物群由数以万亿计的微生物组成，它们分布在消化道内，影响着免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康等诸多方面。

The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.

坚持服用AG1有助于我的消化功能，保持免疫系统强健，并确保我的情绪和注意力始终处于最佳状态。

Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.

AG1现已推出三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带水果味。

AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical.

虽然我一直很喜欢AG1的原味，尤其是加一点柠檬汁的喝法，但我现在特别钟爱新出的浆果口味，味道非常棒。

And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular, it tastes great.

不过话说回来，其实所有口味我都喜欢。

But then again, I do love all the flavors.

如果你想尝试AG1并体验这些新口味，可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman领取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

只需前往drinkag1.com/huberman即可开始。

Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.

如果我的肠道微生物群失调，而且从早期就失衡了，我能否通过适当的条件和锻炼来挽救它？

If my gut microbiome was dysbiotic, it was off early in life, can I rescue that through proper conditions and exercise?

还是说存在某种固定模式，让我难以摆脱？

Or is there some sort of fixed pattern that's going to be hard for me to escape from?

是的，现在正兴起一个被我们称为'肠道微生物群重编程'的重要领域。

Yeah, there's a big field that's emerging now that, we refer to as kind of reprogramming the gut microbiome.

我认为目前在该领域观察到的现象是，微生物群无论是病态还是健康状态，往往都存在于稳定状态中。

And the issue that I think we're seeing in the field is that microbiomes quite often, whether they're diseased or healthy, exist in stable states.

它们有点像具有生物引力的深井状态，要改变这种群落状态非常困难。

They kind of tend towards this well that has gravity to it in a way, biological gravity, where it's really hard to dislodge that community from that state.

例如即使服用口服抗生素的个体，其微生物群落也会遭受巨大冲击。

So even individuals, for instance, that get antibiotics, you take oral antibiotics, the community takes this huge hit.

我们知道大量微生物会死亡，群落组成发生变化，这代表一个易受病原体入侵并引发疾病的脆弱期。

We know that a bunch of microbes die, the composition changes, and that represents a period of vulnerability where pathogens can come in and take over and cause disease.

但如果这种情况没有发生，微生物群会逐渐恢复到与抗生素治疗前不完全相同但相似的状态。

But if that doesn't happen, the microbiota kind of works its way back to something that is not exactly like, but similar to the pre antibiotic treatment.

我们知道饮食扰动通常会导致肠道微生物组发生非常快速的变化。

We know with dietary perturbations, quite often you'll see a really rapid change to the gut microbiome.

然后它几乎像是有记忆一样，会迅速恢复到与原始状态非常相似的状态，即使饮食仍然不同。

And then it's almost like a memory where it snaps back to something that's very similar to the original state, even though the diet remains different.

因此，肠道微生物组具有我们所说的惊人恢复力，以及对变化的抵抗力，或者说至少是对建立新稳定状态的抵抗力。

And so there's this incredible, what we refer to as resilience of the gut microbiome, and resistance to change, or at least resistance to establishing a new stable state.

这并不意味着将不健康的微生物组转变为健康微生物组毫无希望，但它确实意味着我们需要谨慎考虑如何重组这些群落，以实现能抵抗微生物群落被拉回原始状态的新稳定状态。

So that doesn't mean it's hopeless to change an unhealthy microbiome to a healthy microbiome, but it does mean that we need to think carefully about restructuring these communities in ways where we can achieve a new stable state that will resist the microbial community getting pulled back to that original state.

这方面最简单也最典型的例子之一是我们用小鼠进行的实验，我们给小鼠喂食正常鼠粮，其中含有大量对肠道微生物有益的营养物质，比如膳食纤维。

And one of the kind of simplest and nicest examples of this is an experiment that we performed with mice, where we're feeding mice a normal mouse diet, a lot of nutrients there for the gut microbiota, things like dietary fiber.

然后我们将其中一半小鼠的饮食切换为低纤维饮食。

And we switched those mice, half the mice, to a low fiber diet.

我们主要想探讨的问题是，如果转向类似西方的高脂低纤维饮食，肠道菌群会发生什么变化？

And we were basically asking the question that if you switch to kind of a Western like diet, a low fiber, higher fat diet, what happens to the gut microbiota?

我们观察到菌群发生了变化，多样性有所减少。

And we saw the microbiota change, it lost diversity.

这与我们在工业化人群和传统人群之间看到的差异非常相似。

It was very similar to what we see in the difference between industrialized and traditional populations.

但当我们恢复健康饮食后，许多微生物又重新出现了。

But when we brought back a healthy diet, a lot of the microbes returned.

这种记忆效应使得菌群状态恢复到与原始状态非常接近。

There was this kind of memory where it went back to very similar to its original state.

不同之处在于，当我们让小鼠持续多代保持低纤维高脂饮食时，观察到菌群会随着代际更替逐渐恶化，到第四代时肠道菌群数量仅为最初的一小部分。

The difference is that when we put the mice on the low fiber, fat diet, and then kept them on that for multiple generations, we saw this progressive deterioration over the course of generations, whereby the fourth generation, the gut microbiome was a fraction of what it originally was.

比如说只剩下30%的菌种，约70%的菌种似乎已经灭绝。当我们让这些小鼠重新食用高纤维饮食时，并没有看到菌群恢复。

Let's say 30% of the species only remained, something like 70% of the species had gone extinct, or appeared to have gone extinct, we then put those mice back onto a high fiber diet, and we didn't see recovery.

因此在这种情况下，菌群已经达到了一个新的稳定状态。

So in that case, it's a situation where a new stable state has been achieved.

在这种情况下，很可能是因为这些老鼠实际上已经无法获取它们失去的那些微生物。

In that case, it's probably because those mice don't actually have access to the microbes that they've lost.

实际上我们知道，我们做了对照组实验，让老鼠连续四代保持高纤维饮食。

And we actually know that we did the control experiment of mice on a high fiber diet for four generations.

它们保留了所有的微生物。

They maintain all their microbes.

如果我们把这些拥有全部多样性的第四代老鼠的粪便移植给那些已经失去微生物、但已恢复高纤维饮食的老鼠，所有的多样性都能重建。

If we take those fourth generation mice with all the diversity and do a fecal transplant into the mice that had lost their microbes, but had been returned to a high fiber diet, all of the diversity was reconstituted.

所以你的问题是，我们如何建立新的稳定状态？

So your question of like, how do we establish new stable states?

如果我们服用了大量抗生素或肠道菌群已经恶化，该如何恢复健康的微生物群？

How do we get back to a healthy microbiota if we have taken a lot of antibiotics or have a deteriorated microbiota?

可能需要结合能够获取正确微生物的途径。

It's probably a combination of having access to the right microbes.

我们可以讨论这种获取途径的具体形式。

And we can talk about what that access looks like.

未来这可能表现为治疗手段。

It may look like therapeutics in the future.

目前有许多公司正在研发健康微生物的混合制剂，但这需要结合获取正确微生物和通过适当饮食滋养这些微生物。

There are a lot of companies working on creating cocktails of healthy microbes, but it'll be a combination of access to the right microbes and nourishing those microbes with the proper diet.

关于清洁和禁食对微生物群健康或失调的影响，有什么看法？

What's the idea about cleanses and fasting as it relates to the health or the dysbiosis of the microbiota?

是的，我们知道当前的研究中，要重新编程肠道微生物群、建立一个全新的微生物群落，第一步就是清除现有的微生物群落。

Yeah, I mean, we know that in studies that are being done now to reprogram the gut microbiota, to install a completely new microbial community, the first step is to wash away the resident microbial community that's there.

所以如果你正处于获取优质微生物群的过程中，并且知道如何操作，那么彻底清除原有菌群是很好的。

So if you're in the process of acquiring a really good microbiota, and you know how to do that, then flushing everything out is great.

否则，你实际上是在将群落重建这件事交给运气决定。

Otherwise, what is happening is you're kind of leaving rebuilding of the community to chance.

比如会变成什么样？

Like what is it?

那么哪些微生物会来定植呢？

And so what microbes are going to colonize?

在你进行这种排毒或清洁后，谁会占据这些空间呢？

Who's going to take up space after you do this flesh or cleanse?

我认为这有点像玩俄罗斯轮盘赌。

And I think it's a little bit like playing Russian roulette.

之后你可能会得到一个良好的微生物群落，也可能不会。

You may end up with a good microbial community in there afterwards, you may not.

在做完这类事情后重建群落时，你肯定要特别注意你的饮食。

You certainly want to pay close attention to what you're eating while you're doing the reconstitution of the community after you do something like that.

在我看来，避免加工食品或深度加工食品总体上是个好主意。

It sounds to me that avoiding processed foods is a good idea, or heavily processed foods, in general.

我的意思是，偶尔食用不一定是坏事，但食用加工食品确实对微生物组有害。

I mean, not that the occasional consumption is necessarily bad, but consuming processed foods is just bad for the microbiome.

我们能这么绝对地说吗？

Can we say that categorically?

当然可以。

For sure.

好的。

Okay.

没错，你说得完全正确。

Yeah, you're exactly right.

我们可以详细分析，有大量数据表明加工食品中的不同成分为何对人体和肠道微生物群如此有害，我可以举几个例子来说明。

And we can break down, there's a lot of data of why different components of processed food are so bad for us and so bad for our microbiome, and I can talk about a few examples of that.

但另一方面，植物性饮食中摄入的复杂纤维能滋养肠道菌群，这些菌群会产生短链脂肪酸等物质，比如丁酸盐。

But the flip side of this, the plant based diet, if you're eating a bunch of complex fibers that feed your gut microbiota, your gut microbiota produces these substances called short chain fatty acids, things like butyrate.

众所周知，这些短链脂肪酸在多个方面都起着关键作用：为结肠细胞供能、强化肠道屏障、抑制炎症、调节免疫系统和新陈代谢。

And it's known that these short chain fatty acids play really essential components, both in terms of fueling colonocytes, enforcing the barrier, keeping inflammation low, regulating the immune system, regulating metabolism.

肠道菌群持续产生大量发酵终产物，这些物质被吸收进入血液后，会引发一系列显著的级联效应，对我们的生理机能产生广泛益处。

Your gut microbiota is just producing this vast array of fermentation end products that then get absorbed into our bloodstream and have all of these tremendous cascading effects that appear to be largely beneficial on our biology.

而加工食品则是另一个极端——含有各种奇怪的化学物质、人工甜味剂、异常脂肪，以及大量精炼的单一营养素（就是我们讨论过的那种简单营养素）。

Now, processed foods, I think, is this other dimension where you have all of these weird chemicals, artificial sweeteners, weird fats, a lot of refined simple nutrients, the simple nutrients we've talked about.

比如我们已经知道，人工甜味剂会对肠道微生物群造成严重负面影响，甚至可能导致代谢综合征。

But we know that for instance, artificial sweeteners can have a massive negative impact on the gut microbiome and can lead us towards metabolic syndrome actually.

魏茨曼研究所在这个领域做出了非常出色的工作。

There's been beautiful work out of the Weitzman Institute on this.

然后是乳化剂，这些添加到加工食品中的化合物帮助保持货架稳定性，防止成分分离，并适当保留水分含量。

And then emulsifiers, these compounds that are put in processed foods to help them maintain shelf stability, so things don't separate, and so all the moisture content is retained appropriately.

已知其中许多会破坏黏液层。

Many of these are known to disrupt the mucus layer.

一旦这个屏障被破坏，就可能引发炎症。

And as soon as you start disrupting that barrier, that can lead you in the direction of inflammation.

在动物模型中，我们知道这还可能导致代谢综合征。

And in animal models, we know that can lead towards metabolic syndrome as well.

因此，加工食品中的某些成分，在单独研究时已知会对肠道生物学和微生物群产生直接的负面影响。

So components of processed food that are, when studied in isolation, known to have a direct negative impact on gut biology and the microbiota.

我想确保我们区分人工甜味剂和植物性无热量甜味剂。

I do want to make sure that we distinguish artificial sweeteners from non caloric plant based sweeteners.

我们对植物性无热量甜味剂或低热量甜味剂有什么了解吗？

Do we know anything about plant based non caloric sweeteners or low caloric sweeteners?

知之甚少。

Very little.

其中许多性价比更高。

A lot of those have a lot more bang for the buck.

它们甜度极高，只需极少量就能产生强烈的甜味。

They're incredibly sweet, so it takes a really small amount for them to trigger a huge amount of sweetness.

因此，根据这些非糖甜味剂影响我们生物学的机制来看，它们可能比人工甜味剂负面影响更小或更健康，因为食物中只需少量就能让我们感知到甜味。

And so it's depending upon the mechanism of action by which these sweeteners that are not sugar are impacting our biology, it may be that those are actually less negative or more healthy than the ones that are artificial, just because it requires less of them in the food for us to perceive that sweet taste.

历史上，我认为有些传统人群会使用这些甜味剂来为不同食物增甜，我们的身体似乎更懂得如何处理这些天然化合物而非合成物质。

Historically, there are, I think, traditional populations that use these, for instance, to sweeten different foods, that our bodies just kind of know how to deal with those compounds better than the ones that are synthetic.

但我认为相关研究仍需进行。

But I think the studies still need to be done.

你会主动避免人工甜味剂吗？比如三氯蔗糖、阿斯巴甜、糖精，你个人呢？

Do you actively avoid artificial sweeteners, sucralose, aspartame, saccharin, you personally?

是的，我会避免。

Yeah, I do.

我会避免食用它们，但我认为适度行事会让事情变得容易很多，循序渐进也是如此。

I avoid them, but I'm not I think that just doing things in moderation makes it a lot easier, and doing things slowly makes it a lot easier.

所以我几乎没有那些严格死板的规矩。

And so there are very few rules that I have that are hard and fast.

我是个饮食相当灵活的人。

I'm a pretty flexible eater.

我不相信喝无糖可乐会引发什么严重疾病之类的后果。

I don't believe that having a diet Coke will somehow cascade into some terrible disease or something like that.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商Juve。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor Juve.

Juve生产医疗级红光治疗设备。

Juve makes medical grade red light therapy devices.

如果说我在这个播客中始终坚持强调一件事，那就是光对我们生物学和健康产生的惊人影响。

Now, if there's one thing that I've consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health.

红光和红外光已被证明对细胞和器官健康具有显著效果，包括改善线粒体功能、提升皮肤健康与外观、减轻疼痛和炎症，甚至能改善视力本身。

Red light and infrared light have been shown to have remarkable effects on cellular and organ health, including improved mitochondrial function, improved skin health and appearance, reduced pain and inflammation, and even for improving vision itself.

最新研究表明，即使相对短暂地接触红光和红外光，也能显著改善新陈代谢和血糖调节功能。

Recent research shows that even relatively brief exposure to red and infrared light can meaningfully improve your metabolism and blood sugar regulation.

市面上有许多不同类型的红光治疗设备，但Juve灯具之所以与众不同，并成为我首选的红光治疗设备，是因为它们采用经临床验证的特定波长——即精确配比的红光、近红外光和红外光波长，能有效触发促进健康的细胞适应性变化。

Now there are a lot of different red light therapy devices out there, but what sets Juve lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light near infrared and infrared light in exactly the right ratios to trigger the cellular adaptations for health.

我个人每周使用Juve全身治疗面板三到四次，每次约五到十分钟。

Personally, I use the Juve whole body panel about three to four times per week for about five to ten minutes per session.

我在家和旅行时都会使用Juve手持式治疗灯。

And I use the Juve handheld light both at home and when I travel.

如果您想试用Juve产品，请访问joovv.com/huberman（Juve拼写为joovv）。

If you'd like to try Juve, you can go to juve spelled joovv.com/huberman.

目前Juve正在提供节日特别优惠，精选产品最高可享600美元折扣。

Right now, Juve is offering a special holiday discount of up to $600 off select Juve products.

再次提醒，访问joovv.com/huberman，最高可获600美元优惠。

Again, that's Juve, joovv.com/huberman to get up to $600 off.

我很想探讨纤维和发酵食品的话题，因为你和Chris那篇比较不同纤维摄入量与发酵食品摄入量人群炎症标志物的论文，我认为非常有趣且令人振奋。

I'd love to talk about fiber and fermented foods because you and Chris had a, what I think is a really interesting and exciting paper comparing inflammatory markers of people who ate a certain amount of fiber or a certain amount of these fermented foods.

在我深入探讨那项研究之前，让我先退一步思考，因为我们开展这项研究的初衷可以追溯到在研究肠道微生物组时获得的某种顿悟。

Before I dive into that study, let me take a step back, because I think the reason that we did this study goes back to this kind of epiphany that we had while studying the gut microbiome.

因为我认为当我们最初在斯坦福开始研究时，我们是将其视为生物学中一个新兴的重要领域——就像发现了一个之前未知的器官，并开始思考其中所有潜在的药物靶点。

Because I think when we started studying it at Stanford, we were thinking about it as this kind of newly appreciated aspect of our biology, almost like finding an organ that we didn't know was there, and starting to think about all the drug targets that were there.

我们能否通过小分子药物介入，并找到调控这个微生物群落以改善疾病的方法？

Can we go in with small molecule drugs and think of ways to manipulate this community to ameliorate disease?

这很大程度上反映了西方医学的思维模式。

And this is largely the mindset of Western medicine.

这种模式主要形成于传染病时代：等待感染发生（比如细菌感染），然后用抗生素治疗，这就是当时的医疗实践方式。

And largely born out of the era of infectious disease, you wait for an infection to start, a bacterial infection, you treat with antibiotics, and that's the way medicine is practiced.

随着我们进入西方炎症性疾病时代，并基本告别了传染病时代（至少是细菌性传染病），这种等待疾病显现再到诊所治疗的范式，在面对西方炎症性疾病、自身免疫疾病、代谢综合征、心脏病和炎症性疾病时已显得力不从心。

And that's become less successful over time as we've moved into this era of inflammatory Western diseases, and largely moved out of the era of infectious diseases, at least infectious bacterial diseases, that this paradigm of waiting for diseases to appear and come into the clinic is not really very effective in the context of inflammatory Western diseases, autoimmune diseases, metabolic syndrome, heart diseases, inflammatory disease.

这样的例子不胜枚举。

The list goes on and on.

因此我们开始深入思考：如何才能未雨绸缪？

And so we started to think a lot about how can we get out in front of this?

我们该如何思考预防性方法来应对这场代谢性和炎症性疾病的危机？

How can we think about preventative ways of dealing with this crisis of metabolic and inflammatory diseases?

这个领域开始涌现出大量精彩的文献，表明肠道微生物组对调节我们的免疫状态至关重要。

And this tremendous beautiful body of literature started to come forward in the field that showed that the gut microbiome is absolutely critical to modulating our immune status.

因此，如果你改变微生物组，就能从根本上改变免疫系统的运作方式。

So if you change the microbiome, you can fundamentally change how the immune system operates.

而且我们知道免疫系统是许多这类疾病的基础，特别是慢性炎症性疾病。

And we know that the immune system is at the basis of a lot of these diseases, inflammatory chronic diseases.

这让我们想到一种可能性：也许是因为我们没有充分滋养这个微生物群落，也许是因为工业化生活方式带来的种种因素（如抗生素等）导致它随时间恶化。

And so it brought up this possibility that maybe the fact that we're not nourishing this community well enough, maybe the fact that it's deteriorated over time due to all of the things that go along with an industrialized lifestyle, antibiotics and so forth.

也许在工业化世界中，我们当前的微生物群落正将我们的免疫系统设定在一个促发炎症的基准点上，推动我们走向这些炎症性疾病。

Maybe we have a microbiome right now in the industrialized world that is setting our immune system at a set point, simmering inflammation, that's driving us towards these inflammatory diseases.

如果能通过饮食——或者更广泛地说，掌握重塑肠道菌群组成和功能的规律——来改变体内的炎症状态，让每个人发展炎症性疾病的风险降低，那将是多么美妙的事。

And wouldn't it be wonderful if we could figure out how to use diet specifically, but just kind of learn the rules of how to reconfigure both the composition and function of our gut microbiome so that inflammation was different in our bodies, so that each one of us was less likely to go on and to develop an inflammatory disease.

在我们的旗舰研究中，我们想了解：如果让人们采用高纤维饮食，这将如何影响他们的微生物组和免疫系统？

Our flagship study, we wanted to understand if we put people on a high fiber diet, how would that affect their microbiome and immune system?

如果我们让他们采用高发酵食品饮食，即富含活性微生物及发酵过程中产生的所有代谢产物的饮食，这会如何改变微生物组和免疫系统？

And if we put them on a high fermented food diet, a diet rich in live microbes and all the metabolites that are present from fermentation in foods, how would that change microbiome and immune system?

这个想法在高纤维饮食的情况下，就是增加植物性纤维的摄入。

The idea was in the case of the high fiber diet, increasing plant based fiber.

那么你能多吃全谷物、豆类、蔬菜和坚果吗？

So can you eat more whole grains, more legumes, more vegetables, nuts?

将纤维摄入量从每天15到20克提升至每天40克以上。

Get the fiber up in the range of from 15 to 20 grams per day up to over 40 grams per day.

所以你能将每日纤维摄入量翻倍甚至更多吗？

So can you kind of double or more the amount of fiber that you eat per day?

那些采用高发酵食品饮食的人，我们指导他们主要食用在超市能买到的天然发酵且含有活性微生物的食品。

The people that were eating the high fermented food diet, they were instructed to basically eat foods that you could buy at a grocery store that were naturally fermented and contained live microbes.

酸奶、开菲尔、酸菜、泡菜。

Yogurt, kefir, sauerkraut, kimchi.

我们指导人们食用无糖酸奶。

We instructed people to eat non sweetened yogurts.

这一领域的一大陷阱是，你可能买到一款富含细菌的酸奶——这本是健康的基础——但上面却添加了大量人工香料和糖。

A huge pitfall in this area is you can have a yogurt loaded with bacteria, kind of the base of what's healthy, and then a ton of artificial flavoring and sugar loaded on top of that.

制造商事后添加大量糖分，以掩盖发酵食品的酸味，而有些人很难适应这种味道。

Manufacturers put a ton of sugar in after the fact to kind of mask the sour taste of fermented foods, which is hard for some people to become accustomed to.

习惯那种酸味确实不容易，但人们真的应该尽量避免那些含糖量过高的发酵食品。

Getting used to that sour flavor is difficult, but people really should try to stay away from those fermented foods that are loaded with sugar.

这也是我们在研究中给受试者的指导原则。

And that's what we instructed people in this study.

许多人因为价格昂贵而对优质发酵食品望而却步。

A lot of people shy away from the high quality fermented foods because they can be quite costly.

我推荐大家参考蒂姆·费里斯《四小时大厨》中的资源，他提供了制作自制酸菜的绝佳配方，基本上只需要卷心菜、水和盐，但操作必须规范，因为如果表层处理不当，可能会滋生某些虽不致命但存在一定风险的细菌。

I'll just refer people to a resource in Tim Ferriss's book, The four Hour Chef, he actually gives an excellent recipe for making your own sauerkraut, which basically involves cabbage and water and salt, but you have to do it properly because you can grow some, not necessarily lethal, but some somewhat dangerous bacteria if you don't scrape off the top layer properly.

但他详细介绍了如何在容器中进行操作。

But he gives beautiful instructions for how to do this in vats.

只要愿意按照规程操作，仅用卷心菜、水和盐就能制作出大量真正发酵的酸菜。

You can make large amounts of truly fermented sauerkraut just from cabbage, water, and salt, if you're willing to follow the protocol.

如果你能

If you can

弄到一个红茶菌，康普茶是另一种超级简单的发酵饮品。

get your hands on a scoby, kombucha is another one that's super simple.

你可以自己培育。

You can grow your own.

你完全可以自制，而且非常简单。

You can just make your own, and it's super easy to do.

我家里常年都有一批正在发酵的康普茶。

I constantly have a batch of kombucha going at home.

那是由细菌和酵母组成的共生菌群（SCOBY），你泡好茶后加糖，放入SCOBY，根据温度等待一至两周。

And it's a SCOBY symbiotic community of bacteria and yeast that you brew tea, you add sugar to it, and you put the SCOBY in, and you wait a week or two depending upon the temperature.

然后只需把SCOBY转移到新批次里，原先的液体就成了康普茶，味道棒极了。

And then you just move the SCOBY over to a new batch, what the SCOBY was in is kombucha, and it's wonderful.

那么他们摄入了多少发酵食品呢？

So how much fermented food were they consuming?

按份量、盎司计算，他们每天吃多少次，是早上还是晚上？

In servings, ounces, how many times a day, early day, late day?

总体指导原则是让人们尽可能多地食用发酵食品，越多越好。

The general instructions were for people to eat as much fermented foods as possible, more is better.

在干预阶段的高峰期，人们平均每天摄入超过六份发酵食品。

People during the height of the intervention phase were up over six servings on average per day of fermented foods.

基本上就是每餐两份左右。

So kind of two servings at each meal.

至于盎司、重量或体积，这实际上取决于具体的发酵食品种类。

And the ounces or weight or size, it really depended on what the fermented food was.

我们只是建议他们遵循所购产品包装上的推荐剂量。

And we just told them to stick to what was a recommended dose on the package that they were buying.

比如康普茶大约是6-8盎司一杯，酸菜半杯左右，酸奶也类似。

For kombucha, it'd be like a six to eight ounce glass sauerkraut, like a half cup or something like that, and same with yogurt.

真正显著的信号确实来自发酵食品组。

The big signal really was in the fermented food group.

我们在西方微生物群和西方人体内观察到了所有期望见到的变化。

We saw all the things that you would hope to see in a Western microbiota and Western human.

在六周的发酵食品摄入期间，我们观察到微生物群多样性的增加。

We saw this increase in microbiota diversity over the course of the six weeks while they were consuming the fermented foods.

就微生物群落而言，我们并不能总是断言更高的多样性就更好。

We can't always say that higher diversity is better when it comes to our microbial communities.

我们知道在某些情况下，比如细菌性阴道炎，更高的多样性反而标志着疾病状态。

We know there are cases, for instance, bacterial vaginosis where higher diversity is actually indicative of a disease state.

但在肠道环境中，对生活在工业化世界的人们来说，更高的多样性通常更为有益。

But we know in the context of the gut and for people living in the industrialized world, higher diversity is generally better.

我们了解到多样性存在一个谱系。

We know that there's a spectrum of diversity.

通常来说，拥有更高微生物多样性的人群更为健康。

People with higher diversity generally are healthier.

如果能提升自身的微生物多样性，你的健康状况会更好。

If you can push your diversity higher, you're in better shape.

因此我们观察到了多样性的提升。

And so we saw that increase in diversity.

然后主要问题是：当这些人通过发酵食品增加肠道菌群多样性时，他们的免疫系统发生了什么变化？

And then the major question is what happened to the immune system as these people were increasing their gut microbiota diversity through the fermented foods?

于是我们进行了大规模的免疫特征分析，观察到研究期间有几十种免疫标志物和炎症标志物出现下降。

So we did this massive immune profiling, and we see a couple dozen immune markers, inflammatory markers decrease over the course of the study.

我们在研究过程中的多个时间点测量这些指标，发现诸如白细胞介素-6、白细胞介素-12等多种著名的炎症介质呈现阶梯式下降趋势。

So we measure these at multiple time points throughout the course of the study, and there's kind of this stepwise reduction in things like interleukin-six and interleukin-twelve, a variety of kind of famous inflammatory mediators.

然后，即使你观察免疫细胞并开始研究它们的信号级联反应，我们发现与研究初期相比，研究结束时这些信号级联的激活程度降低了，这表明炎症反应有所减弱。

And then even if you go into the immune cells and you start looking at their signaling cascades, we see that those signaling cascades are less activated at the end of the study compared to the beginning of the study, indicating an attenuation of inflammation.

这基本上就是我们假设的会导致长期来看炎症性疾病倾向降低的情况。

So kind of exactly what we would hypothesize would lead to less propensity for inflammatory disease over time.

这对于一个非常短期的研究来说是一个巨大的延伸。

That's a huge extension of a very short study.

但人们有没有表示他们在某些方面感觉更好了？

But did people say they were feeling better in any way?

如果是这样，你观察到了什么？

And if so, what did you observe?

再次强调，我们把这些作为轶事数据来突出。

And again, we're highlighting these as anic data.

很多人表示他们精力更充沛，思维更清晰，睡眠质量更好。

Tons of people say they have more energy, they think more clearly, they sleep better.

这真的很难区分，是因为这些人现在掌控了自己的饮食，还是因为对自己行为有了掌控权而整体感觉更好？

And it's really hard to uncouple, is this because these people have taken charge now of what they're eating and just feel better in general for being in control of what they're doing?

或者是否存在一系列从肠脑轴实际产生的连锁效应？

Or is there this cascading set of effects that are actually emanating from the gut brain axis?

我应该说，这样的例子不胜枚举。

And I should say, the list of this goes on and on.

有人声称肤色改善了，过敏症状减轻了，可能还有各种连锁反应。

There are people who claim that their complexion improves and that their allergies And there's probably all sorts of ripple effects.

如果能影响炎症，我们知道就能影响认知能力。

If you can affect your inflammation, we know that you can affect your cognition.

我们知道你可以影响皮肤及皮肤上的炎症反应。

We know that you can affect your skin and inflammation that's occurring on your skin.

因此我确实认为这些轶事传闻有其依据。

So I really think that there is a basis for a lot of those anecdotes.

在短期研究和小规模人群的短期观察中可能难以发现这些现象。

It may just be hard to see in a short study and in a small cohort of people over a short period of time.

我们还采用了标准化的粪便检测方法，在这两种干预过程中，便秘情况有所减轻，肠道蠕动也得到改善。

We also have a standardized stool measure that people use, And there was kind of less constipation, better bowel movements over the course of both of these interventions.

肠道习惯确实看似有所改善，这往往能带来更好的情绪，但我们未能对此进行测量。

So it did seem like bowel habits improved, which a lot of times can lead to better moods, but we weren't able to measure that.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商Function。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors Function.

去年在寻找最全面的实验室检测方案后，我成为了Function会员。

Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

Function提供超过100项先进实验室检测，能全面反映你的身体健康状况。

Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.

这份健康快照为您提供关于心脏健康、激素水平、免疫功能、营养状况等多方面的深入洞察。

This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.

Function不仅提供100多项与身心健康密切相关的生物标志物检测，还会分析这些结果，并由相关领域的顶尖医生专家提供专业解读。

Function not only provides testing of over a 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.

比如在我第一次使用Function的检测中，就发现血液中汞含量超标。

For example, in one of my first tests with function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.

Function不仅帮我检测出这个问题，还提供了最佳降汞方案，包括减少金枪鱼摄入量。

Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption.

当时我吃了很多金枪鱼，同时也在努力增加绿叶蔬菜摄入，并补充NAC和乙酰半胱氨酸——这两种物质都有助于谷胱甘肽生成和排毒。

I'd been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.

通过第二次Function检测可以确认，这套方案确实有效。

And I should say by taking a second function test, that approach worked.

全面的血液检测至关重要。

Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.

许多关乎身心健康的问题，只有通过血液检测才能发现。

There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.

问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。

The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.

相比之下，Function的简洁性和成本水平让我印象深刻，它非常经济实惠。

In contrast, I've been super impressed by function simplicity and at the level of cost, it is very affordable.

因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，并且很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。

As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

如果你想尝试Function，可以访问functionhealth.com/huberman。

If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.

Function目前有超过25万人的等候名单，但他们为Huberman播客听众提供早期访问权限。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.

重申一下，访问functionhealth.com/huberman即可获得Function的早期体验资格。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

你在纤维组观察到了哪些有趣的现象？

What sorts of interesting things did you observe in the fiber group?

数据似乎在告诉我们，如果你一开始就拥有多样化的微生物群——可能是一个能更好降解多种膳食纤维的微生物群——你就更有可能对其产生积极反应。

Data seem to be telling us that if you start off with a diverse microbiota, maybe one that's better equipped to degrade a wide variety of dietary fiber, you're more likely to respond positively to it.

如果你的肠道微生物群非常贫瘠，就不太可能对它产生反应。

If you have a very depleted gut microbiome, you're not as likely to be able to respond to it.

回想我们之前讨论的那个实验——给小鼠喂食西方饮食导致多代丧失纤维发酵微生物的现象，可能我们工业化社会中的许多人现在的微生物群已经贫瘠到即使摄入高纤维饮食（至少在短期内），肠道中也没有能分解这些纤维的合适微生物。

And thinking back to that experiment that we talked about before with the multi generational loss of fiber fermenting microbes in mice that were fed a Western diet, It may be that many of us in the industrialized world have a microbiome that's so depleted now that even if we consume a high fiber diet, at least for a short period of time, we don't have the right microbes in our gut to degrade that fiber.

其他研究团队也观察到了这一现象，明尼苏达大学有个很棒的研究，调查了移民到美国的人群。

This has actually been observed by other groups, beautiful study out of University of Minnesota, looking at immigrants coming to The United States.

在九个月内（当然多年后更明显），来到这里的移民不仅丧失了肠道微生物群的多样性，也失去了肠道微生物群中大量分解纤维的能力。

And within nine months, but certainly over the course of years, immigrants that come here lose a lot of the diversity in their gut microbiome, but a lot of the fiber degrading capacity in their gut microbiome too.

因此这可能逐渐变成一条单行道，我们很难再找回那些真正能分解纤维的微生物。

So it could be that over time this becomes a one way street, and it's hard for us to recover the microbes that actually can degrade the fiber.

我认为这可能与我们环境的卫生状况有关——由于无法接触到可能帮助分解纤维的新微生物，实际上我们已经失去了这些微生物，某种程度上若不刻意重新引入纤维分解微生物，它们就无法恢复。

And I think that this probably intersects with sanitation in our environment, and the fact that we don't have access to new microbes that might help us degrade the fiber, that we actually have lost these microbes and they're in some ways irrecoverable without deliberate reintroduction of fiber degrading microbes.

你有孩子的话，会鼓励他们接触宠物、泥土和环境中的东西吗？当然前提是那些东西没有即时毒性。

While you have children, do you encourage them to interact with pets and dirt and stuff in the environment, provided that stuff wasn't immediately toxic.

正是如此。

Exactly.

当然，就一般传染病而言，意识到病菌传播可能危害健康确实很重要。

Certainly just with infectious diseases in general, it's really important to be aware of the possibility for compromising your health through the spread of germs.

因此洗手很重要，我们必须小心病菌的传播。

And so that is just hand washing is important, and we have to be careful with the spread of germs.

但我确实认为环境消毒已经过度了，比如购物车、牙刷等各种物品都浸渍了抗生素。

But I do think that the sanitization of our environment has gone overboard with various things being impregnated with antibiotics, shopping carts and things like that, and toothbrushes.

抗生素这类杀灭微生物的物质简直无处不在。

It's like antibiotics and things for killing microbes are everywhere.

当我们抚养女儿年幼需要做这些决定时，我们主要考虑两点：一是她们接触致病微生物的可能性有多大？

And when we were raising, when our daughters were young and we were making these decisions, the calculations that we would make were really, one, how likely are they to encounter a disease causing microbe?

如果是远足或在花园里玩泥土后，即使手上沾了点土，饭前洗手可能就没那么必要。

If we've been out on a hike or in our garden just kind of working in the dirt or whatever, maybe it's not as important to wash your hands before you have lunch, even if there's a little bit of dirt on them.

但如果是在可能有其他携带病菌孩子的公共游乐场，或是使用过农药除草剂等化学品的场所，洗手就显得更为重要。

If they've been in a public playground where maybe there's other kids with germs, or maybe even chemicals like pesticides and herbicides that are being used, maybe it's more important than to wash your hands.

当然，如果去过杂货店或地铁，洗手绝对是个好主意。

Certainly if you've been in the grocery store or on the subway, probably a good idea to wash your hands.

所以我认为你真的需要考虑具体情境。

So I think you really need to think about kind of the context of it.

接触环境中的微生物可能是教育我们的免疫系统并保持其适当平衡的重要部分。

Exposure to microbes from the environment is likely an important part of educating our immune system and keeping the proper balance in our immune system.

关键是要找到安全实现这一目标的方法。

And it's just a matter of figuring out the right way to do that safely.

对于没有在抗生素疗程后恢复或未被开具抗生素处方的普通人，关于益生菌的看法是什么？

What's the thought about probiotics for the typical person that's not recovering from a round of antibiotics, or that has been prescribed them?

首先我要说的是买家需谨慎，因为这是一个补充剂市场，基本上不受监管。

So I think the first thing to say is buyer beware, because it's a supplement market, it's largely unregulated.

这意味着市面上有很多劣质产品。

And that means that there are a lot of bad products out there.

还有很多产品虽然本意不坏，但质量控制并不理想。

And a lot of products that, even though they're not intended to be bad, just don't have great quality control.

已有几项研究对市面上常见的非处方益生菌进行了成分测序调查，结果显示实际成分与标签不符。

There have been several studies that have taken over the counter, just kind of off the shelf probiotics, surveyed what's in there based on sequencing, and shown that what is in there does not match what's on the label.

因此，益生菌公司可以将产品送往某些机构进行独立验证。

So there are places that probiotic companies can send their product to have it independently validated.

所以你会希望在产品上看到这类验证标识。

So you want to look for that sort of validation on a product.

还有一些品牌本身就非常知名。

There also are names that are just very well known.

考虑到声誉风险，这些知名品牌可能在质量控制上比那些不太知名的品牌投入更多。

And reputations are on the line, so they probably invest a little bit more in quality control than maybe some of the other lesser known names.

由于产品种类繁多，且每个人的微生物组都像独特的小宇宙，很难判断哪些产品对特定症状真正有效。

Because there's such a huge range of products, and because each person is their own little caper when it comes to the microbiome, it's really hard to know whether there are great products for a given indication.

我听过的最佳建议是：尽量找到有严谨研究支持的产品，不过这对非科研人士来说很难评估。

The really good advice that I've heard is try to find a study that supports a really well designed study, and this is very hard for people who aren't scientists to evaluate.

所以如果你有健康问题或需要咨询，看医生可能会有所帮助。

So if you're experiencing a medical problem or want to consult a doctor, that might be helpful.

我认为最佳方案是：找到某项研究表明特定益生菌能达成你期望的效果，然后坚持使用该产品，这在这个领域是个很好的起点。

But finding a study where a specific probiotic has successfully done whatever it is you're looking for, and then sticking with that probiotic is really the best recipe as a place to start in this space, I think.

那益生元呢？

And what about prebiotics?

因为我能想到很多理由说明益生元可能有益。

Because there are a number of reasons why I can imagine that prebiotics would be beneficial.

关于益生元的研究结果其实好坏参半。

The studies that have been done on prebiotics, it's really kind of a mixed bag of results.

有些研究使用纯化纤维时，你会观察到微生物群多样性在研究过程中急剧下降，因为少数擅长利用这种特定纤维的细菌会大量繁殖，而这会以牺牲肠道中其他微生物为代价。

There have been studies done with purified fibers where you actually see microbiota diversity plummet over the course of the study, because you get a very specific bloom in a small number of bacteria that are good at using that one type of fiber, and that's at the expense of all the other microbes that are in the gut.

因此很难用纯化纤维复制出——比如说——你在沙拉吧能获得的各种复合碳水化合物对微生物群的暴露效果。

And so it's really hard to replicate with purified fiber what you'd get, for instance, at a salad bar in terms of the array of complex carbohydrates that you would be exposing your microbiota to.

我认为这个领域的普遍观点是：摄入多种植物及其带来的多样化纤维，可能比纯化纤维更能促进微生物群的多样性。

And I think the kind of broad view of this in the field is that consuming a broad variety of plants and all the diverse fiber that comes with that is probably better diversity in your microbiota than purified fibers.

当然，也有很多人确实从纯化纤维中获益，无论是为了促进胃肠蠕动还是改善其他胃肠道健康问题。

Now, there are, again, a lot of people who benefit from purified fibers, either for GI motility or for other aspects of GI health problems that they've been experiencing.

我想这又是那种需要你亲自尝试才能找到最适合自己的方案的事情。

Again, I think it's the type of thing where you have to try to find the thing that's right for you.

但也有研究表明，如果在西方饮食基础上叠加快速发酵的纤维，实际上可能导致肝脏出现异常代谢，因为纤维的极速发酵与大量脂肪同时进入系统。

But there also are studies that suggest that if you layer rapidly fermentable fibers on top of a Western diet, you actually can result in weird metabolism happening in your liver, because you have this incredibly rapid fermentation of fiber along with a lot of fat coming into the system.

至少理论上是这样。

At least that's the theory.

在几年前发表的一项小鼠研究中，他们发现当给小鼠喂食高剂量益生元时，部分小鼠会患上肝细胞癌——也就是肝癌。

And in a mouse study that was published a few years ago, they actually see that a subset of the mice develop hepatocellular carcinoma when they're fed a high dose prebiotic- Liver cancer.

在西方饮食基础上出现的肝癌。

Liver cancer on top of a Western diet.

所以这是否代表人类生物学特性，我们尚不清楚。

So whether that's representative of human biology, we don't know.

但精制纤维在结构多样性方面确实非常不同，而且在肠道内的发酵速度也截然不同。

But purified fibers are definitely very different, both in terms of the diversity of structures, but also in terms of how rapidly they're fermented in the gut.

因为如果你食用植物，其复杂结构会大大减缓微生物的发酵速度，最终使发酵过程缓慢分布于整个结肠，而不是像摄入高度可溶且易被微生物利用的物质时那样出现爆发性发酵。

Because if you are eating plants, the complex structures there really slow the microbes down in terms of fermentation, and you end up with slow rate of fermentation over the length of your colon, as opposed to this big burst of fermentation that can happen if you eat something that is highly soluble and easily accessed by the microbes.

你已经涵盖了海量信息，我对此深表感激。

So you've covered a tremendous amount of information and I'm incredibly grateful.

人们在哪里可以了解更多关于你们正在进行的工作？

Where can people find out more about the work that you're doing?

我们当然可以提供相关链接，而且你还有一本关于这个主题的书。

We can certainly provide links and you have a book on this topic.

你能介绍一下这本书吗？我们想通过它了解更多关于Sonnenberg实验室和你们的工作。

So could you tell us about the book where we can learn more about the Sonnenberg Lab and the work that you're doing?

也许人们甚至会尝试报名参加其中一些研究。

Maybe people will even try and enroll in some of these studies.

是的。

Yeah.

我和妻子Erica合著了一本名为《好肠道》的书。

So Erica, my wife and I wrote a book called The Good Gut.

这本书实际上是我们对进入这一领域后生活变化的回应——我们非常熟悉相关研究，发现许多不研究肠道微生物组但消息灵通的朋友（其中不少是科学家）并没有采取和我们相同的做法。

And that really was a response to how we were changing our lives in response to being in the field, being very familiar with the research, seeing that a lot of our friends that weren't studying the gut microbiome, but were very well informed, many of them scientists, were not doing the same things we were doing.

很明显，这只是因为该领域的研究成果没有充分传播给其他人。

And it was very clear that it was just the lack of information funneling out of the field to other people.

因此我们希望让非微生物学领域的人也能了解这些知识。

And so we wanted to make that accessible to people who are not microbiome scientists.

至于与我们的研究建立联系，斯坦福大学确实设有人体微生物组研究中心，这是我们开展许多饮食干预研究的大本营。

And then in terms of kind of connecting with our research, certainly there's the Center for Human Microbiome Studies at Stanford, which is kind of our home base for doing a lot of these dietary interventions.

我们在那里列出了研究项目，提供了更多关于我们工作的详细信息。

We list the studies there, give more information on what we're doing.

我们还有一个实验室网站，人们可以访问并了解更多关于我们研究的内容。

And then we have a lab website too, that people can go to and read more about our research.

而且我们一直在为研究项目招募参与者。

And we're always looking for participants for our studies.

非常感谢您抽时间接受采访，也感谢您所做的工作，希望有机会能再次合作。

Thank you so much for your time and for the work you do, and I hope we can do it again.

谢谢，安德鲁。

Thanks, Andrew.

这次对话非常愉快。

This was a great conversation.

太棒了。

Terrific.