基础要素：机器、创造力与爱 | Lex Fridman博士

欢迎收看《Huberman Lab 精选》，在这里我们重温往期节目，提炼出最强大、最实用的基于科学的心理健康、身体健康与表现提升工具。现在是我与 Lex Friedman 博士的对话。我们又见面了。我们又见面了。

Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance. And now my conversation with Doctor. Lex Friedman. We meet again. We meet again.

我有一个问题，我想很多人都在思考，或者应该思考：什么是人工智能？它与机器学习、机器人等概念有何不同？

I have a question that I think is on a lot of people's minds or ought to be on a lot of people's minds. What is artificial intelligence? And how is it different from things like machine learning and robotics?

我首先把人工智能看作一个宏大的哲学命题：人类渴望创造其他智能系统，甚至超越自身的系统。狭义上，它也是一套计算与数学工具，用来自动化各种任务；同时，它还是我们理解自身心智的尝试——构建表现出智能行为的系统，以此探究我们自身的智能究竟是什么。

So I think of artificial intelligence first as a big philosophical thing. It's our longing to create other intelligence systems, perhaps systems more powerful than us. At the more narrow level, I think it's also a set of tools that are computational mathematical tools to automate different tasks. And then also, it's our attempt to understand our own mind. So, build systems that exhibit some intelligent behavior in order to understand what is intelligence in our own selves.

所以，这些说法都对。当然，对 AI 研究者和工程师这个群体来说，AI 真正意味着的是一套计算技术，用来解决各种问题。它有漫长的历史，从多个角度逼近目标；其中一条主线就是“机器学习”社区，强调在 AI 范畴内完成“学习”这件事：怎样让一台初始几乎空白的机器，通过某种流程，在特定任务上越学越好？最近十五年左右，最奏效的是一套叫“深度学习”的技术，它利用神经网络。

So, all those things are true. Of course, what AI really means as a community, as a set of researchers and engineers, it's a set of tools, a set of computational techniques that allow you to solve various problems. There's a long history that approaches the problem from different perspectives, what's always been throughout one of the threads, one of the communities goes under the flag of machine learning, which is emphasizing in the AI space, the task of learning. How do you make a machine that knows very little in the beginning, follow some kind of process and learns to become better and better in a particular task? What's been most very effective in the recent about fifteen years is a set of techniques that fall under the flag of deep learning that utilize neural networks.

这是一张由微小计算单元——人工神经元——组成的网络，这些架构有输入、有输出，初始一无所知，被安排去学习某种“有趣”的东西。所谓“有趣”通常对应一项具体任务。可以有很多方式来细说，比如按“需要多少人类监督”来划分：监督学习这一大类，指的是神经网络初始空白，随后被喂给大量示例——在计算机视觉里，就是猫、狗、汽车、交通标志等样本；每张图像都附带“ ground truth ”，告诉它图里到底是什么。

It's a network of these little basic computational units called neurons, artificial neurons, and these architectures have an input and an output, they know nothing in the beginning and they're tasked with learning something interesting. What that something interesting is usually involves a particular task. There's a lot of ways to talk about this and break this down. Like one of them is how much human supervision is required to teach this thing. So, supervised learning, this broad category is the neural network knows nothing in the beginning, and then it's given a bunch of examples of in computer vision, that will be examples of cats, dogs, cars, traffic signs, and then you're given the image and you're given the ground truth of what's in that image.

当你拥有了一个庞大的图像数据库，并且知道每张图的真相，神经网络就能通过样本来学习，这就叫监督学习。这里面有很多迷人的问题，比如：你怎样提供“真相”？给一张猫的照片时，怎么告诉计算机“这张图里有猫”？是直接说整张照片就是猫？还是像常见做法那样画一个粗糙的边界框，把猫脸框住说“这是猫”？或者做语义分割？

And when you get a large database of such image examples where you know the truth, the neural network is able to learn by example, that's called supervised learning. There's a lot of fascinating questions within that, which is how do you provide the truth? When you've given an image of a cat, how do you provide to the computer that this image contains a cat? Do you just say the entire image is a picture of a cat? Do you do what's very commonly been done, which is a bounding box?

注意，这只是张二维猫图，计算机对我们三维世界一无所知，它只看一堆像素。语义分割就是给猫画一条精细的轮廓说“这是猫”。提供这种真值非常费力，而计算机视觉的一个根本开放问题就是：这种表示真相的方式到底好不好？与此相对，还有一套思想，现在更多叫“自监督学习”，过去叫“无监督学习”，目标是让人类监督越来越少。

You have a very crude box around the cat's face saying this is a cat, do you do semantic segmentation? Mind you, this is a two d image of a cat, so it's not a The computer knows nothing about our three-dimensional world, it's just looking at a set of pixels. So, semantic segmentation is drawing a nice, very crisp outline around the cat and saying that's a cat. That's really difficult to provide that truth, and one of the fundamental open questions in computer vision is, is that even a good representation of the truth? Now, there's another contrasting set of ideas, their attention, their overlapping is what's used to be called unsupervised learning, what's commonly now called self supervised learning, which is trying to get less and less and less human supervision into the task.

自监督学习在语言模型、自然语言处理领域已经非常成功，如今在计算机视觉任务上也日益见效。其核心思想是：让机器无需任何人工标注，直接看互联网上的图片或文字，试图学到关于语言或视觉底层概念的、可泛化的东西。我们人类喜欢把这类知识称作“常识”。我们拥有庞大的常识基础，再在其上构建更复杂的知识。自监督学习就是想自动建立这种常识：猫、狗等视觉概念的根本特征，而无需人类监督。

So, self supervised learning is more, it's been very successful in the domain of language model, natural language processing, and now more and more is being successful in computer vision task. And the idea there is let the machine without any ground truth annotation, just look at pictures on the internet, or look at text on the internet and try to learn something generalizable about the ideas that are at the core of language or at the core of vision. And based on that, we humans, at its best, like to call that common sense. So, we have this giant base of knowledge on top of which we build more sophisticated knowledge, but have this kind of common sense knowledge. And so, the idea with self supervised learning is to build this common sense knowledge about what are the fundamental visual ideas that make up a cat and a dog and all those kinds of things without ever having human supervision.

梦想中的场景是：你让一个自监督的 AI 系统在互联网上自己跑，看几百万小时的 YouTube 视频，无需任何监督，就能“预热”完毕；等人类出现时，只需极少样本它就能学会。我们人类小孩就是这样——父母只给一两个例子就能教懂一个概念。自监督学习的梦想是机器也能如此：先自己看几百万小时视频，然后人类只说一句“这是猫”，它就能记住并理解：猫不只是尖耳朵、橙色或毛茸茸，而是抓住更本质的东西——那种我们人类内省也说不清的差异。

The dream there is, you just let an AI system that's self supervised run around the internet for a while, watch YouTube videos for millions and millions of hours, and without any supervision, be primed and ready to actually learn with very few examples once the human is able to show up. We think of children in this way, human children, is your parents only give one or two examples to teach a concept. The dream with self supervised learning is that will be the same with machines, that they would watch millions of hours of YouTube videos and then come to a human and be able to understand when the human shows them, this is a cat, like remember this is a cat, they will understand that a cat is not just a thing with pointy ears, or a cat is a thing that's orange or is furry, they'll see something more fundamental that we humans might not actually be able to introspect and understand. Like if I asked you what makes a cat versus a dog, you wouldn't probably not be able to answer that, but if I showed you, brought to you a cat and a dog, you'd be able to tell the difference.

如果你脑中用来区分猫狗的那些“想法”到底是什么？自监督学习的整个梦想就是：它能自己学会这套常识，从而分辨差异。此外，自监督学习还有令人惊叹的应用，比如被奇怪地称作“自我对弈”的机制——这正是 AlphaZero 等强化学习系统背后的机制，那些系统想下国际象棋。哦，我明白了。

What are the ideas that your brain uses to make that difference? That's the whole dream with self supervised learning is it would be able to learn that on its own, that set of common sense knowledge that's able to tell the difference. And then there's like a lot of incredible uses of self supervised learning, very weirdly called self play mechanism, that's the mechanism behind the reinforcement learning successes of the systems that want to go at alpha zero, that want to chess. Oh, I see,

那个玩游戏的。

that play games.

那个玩游戏的。

That play games.

明白了。

Got it.

所以，自我对弈这个概念——可能不只适用于游戏——就是一个系统自己跟自己下棋。这在很多领域都令人着迷；它一开始什么都不知道，整个思路是：它生成一堆自己的变种，然后跟这些版本对弈。通过跟比你强一点点的系统互动，大家开始越变越强、越来越强，直到比国际象棋世界冠军高出好几个数量级。这很神奇，因为它像一个失控的系统。

So, the idea of self play, this probably applies to other domains than just games, is a system that just plays against itself. And this is fascinating in all kinds of domains, but it knows nothing in the beginning. And the whole idea is it creates a bunch of mutations of itself and plays against those versions of itself. And then through this process of interacting with systems just a little better than you, you start following this process where everybody starts getting better and better and better and better until you are several orders of magnitude better than the world champion in chess, for example. And it's fascinating because it's like a runaway system.

大卫·西尔弗——AlphaGo 和 AlphaZero 的创造者、团队核心之一——跟我说过一句既可怕又激动人心的话：他们还没找到 AlphaZero 的上限，也就是说它可以无限提升。在国际象棋里，这倒无所谓，反正它已经碾压人类了。但问题是，如果你能在对人类和社会影响更大的领域也造出这种系统，那过程可能非常可怕；在我看来，只要监管得当，它也可以是激动人心的。

One of the most terrifying and exciting things that David Silver, the creator of AlphaGo and AlphaZero, one of the leaders of the team said to me is they haven't found the ceiling for alpha zero, meaning it could just arbitrarily keep improving. Now, in the realm of chess, that doesn't matter to us that it's like, it just ran away with the game of chess. Like, it's like just so much better than humans. But the question is what, if you can create that in the realm that does have a bigger, deeper effect on human beings and societies, that can be a terrifying process. To me, it's an exciting process if you supervise it correctly.

如果你注入所谓的“价值对齐”，确保 AI 优化的目标与人类及人类社会一致，那就还有很多关于神经网络细节和人们正在攻克的各种难题可聊。但我想说，真正令人兴奋的是“自监督学习”——让神经网络越来越少依赖人类监督。先插一句，我这就闭嘴。

If you inject, if what's called value alignment, you make sure that the goals that the AI is optimizing is aligned with human beings and human societies. There's a lot of fascinating things to talk about within the specifics of neural networks and all the problems that people are working on, but I would say the really big exciting one is self supervised learning, where trying to get less and less human supervision, less and less human supervision of neural networks. And also just a comment and I'll shut up.

别，请继续。我在学，我有问题，但我在学，请继续。

No, please keep going. I'm learning. I have questions, but I'm learning, so please keep going.

所以，对我来说，激动人心的不是理论，而是应用。人工智能，尤其是神经网络和机器学习，最令人兴奋的应用之一就是特斯拉的 Autopilot。这些系统在真实世界里运行，不是学术练习，而是人命关天。虽然它叫 FSD（完全自动驾驶），但目前还不是完全自主，人类必须监督。

So, to me, what's exciting is not the theory, it's always the application. One of the most exciting applications of artificial intelligence, specifically neural networks and machine learning, is Tesla autopilot. So, these are systems that are working in the real world. This isn't an academic exercise, this is human lives at stake. Even though it's called FSD, full self driving, it is currently not fully autonomous, meaning human supervision is required.

因此，人类负责监督系统；从法律责任上讲，人类始终担责。这是人因心理学的问题，非常迷人。我对整个领域都着迷，那是另一个大话题——人机交互，当 AI 系统和人类一起完成任务时。这场“舞蹈”在我看来是目前较小众的社区，但一旦解决，将是最重要的开放问题之一：人类和机器人如何共舞？

So, human is tasked with overseeing the systems. In fact, liability wise, the human is always responsible. This is a human factor psychology question, which is fascinating. I'm fascinated by the whole space, which is a whole another space of human robot interaction, when AI systems and humans work together to accomplish tasks. That dance to me is one of the smaller communities, but I think it will be one of the most important open problems once they're solved, is how do humans and robots dance together?

在我看来，半自动驾驶就是这样一个领域。比如马斯克，他不这么看，他把半自动驾驶视为通往完全自动驾驶的垫脚石：人类和机器人跳不好舞，就像人类和人类跳、机器人和机器人跳一样。我们必须——这是个工程问题——设计一个完美的机器人来解决它。而我始终认为，也许驾驶不是如此，但世界将充满人类和机器人必须互动的难题，因为机器人永远会有缺陷，就像人类永远有缺陷一样。

To me, semi autonomous driving is one of those spaces. So for Elon, for example, he doesn't see it that way, he sees semi autonomous driving as a stepping stone towards fully autonomous driving. Like humans and robots can't dance well together, like humans and humans dance and robots and robots dance. Like we need to, this is an engineering problem, we need to design a perfect robot that solves this problem. To me forever, maybe this is not the case with driving, but the world is going to be full of problems where it's always humans and robots have to interact, because I think robots will always be flawed, just like humans are going to be flawed, are flawed.

而这正是生活美好的原因——它们都有缺陷。学习就发生在你能力边缘的地方。所以，你必须不断思考如何让有缺陷的机器人和有缺陷的人类互动，使得整体大于部分之和，而不是只专注于打造完美的机器人。因此，对我来说，人工智能最令人兴奋的应用之一就是自动驾驶和半自动驾驶。这也是机器学习的一个绝佳例子，因为这些系统在不断学习。

And that's what makes life beautiful, that they're flawed. That's where learning happens at the edge of your capabilities. So, you always have to figure out how can flawed robots and flawed humans interact together such that they, like the sum is bigger than the whole, as opposed to focusing on just building the perfect robot. So, that's one of the most exciting applications I would say of artificial intelligence to me is autonomous driving and semi autonomous driving. And that's a really good example of machine learning because those systems are constantly learning.

这里有一个过程，也许我可以评论一下。Andrej Karpathy，自动驾驶的负责人，称之为“数据引擎”。这个过程适用于很多机器学习：你先构建一个表现不错的系统，把它放到现实世界中运行，它开始执行任务，然后遇到所谓的“边缘案例”——失败案例，也就是它搞砸的地方。你知道，我们小时候就这样——我们成年人也这样。我们成年人也这样。没错，但我们学得很快；关键在于，这也是驾驶最迷人的地方——你会意识到有数百万个边缘案例。

And there's a process there that maybe I can comment on, Andre Kapathi, who's the head of autopilot, calls it the data engine. And this process applies for a lot of machine learning, which is you build a system that's pretty good at doing stuff, you send it out into the real world, it starts doing the stuff, and then it runs into what are called edge cases, like failure cases, where it screws up. You know, we do this as kids, that's, you have- We do this as adults. We do this as adults. Exactly, but we learn really quickly, but the whole point, and this is the fascinating thing about driving, is you realize there's millions of edge cases.

总有你意想不到的奇怪情况。于是数据引擎流程就是：收集这些边缘案例，然后回到绘图板去学习。你必须建立这样一个数据管道：几十万辆车在路上跑，遇到什么怪事，只要“怪事检测器”触发，这条数据就回传到总部，用于重新训练系统。通过数据引擎流程，系统持续改进，越来越好。

There's just like weird situations that you did not expect. And so the data engine processes, you collect those edge cases and then you go back to the drawing board and learn from them. And so you have to create this data pipeline where all these cars, hundreds of thousands of cars as you're driving around and something weird happens. And so whenever this weird detector fires, another important concept, that piece of data goes back to the mothership for the training, for the retraining of the system. And through this data engine process, it keeps improving and getting better and better and better and better.

所以，基本思路就是把一个还算聪明的AI系统放到世界上，让它去发现边缘案例，让它刚好搞砸到足以定位边缘案例，然后回来学习，再发布新版本，不断迭代。人类迷人的一点是，我们会给自己设定目标函数。就像人生的意义——我们到底为什么存在？而机器目前必须被硬编码一条“为什么”。

So basically, send out a pretty clever AI systems out into the world and let it find the edge cases, let it screw up just enough to figure out where the edge cases are, and then go back and learn from them and then send out that new version and keep updating that version. One of the fascinating things about humans is we figure out objective functions for ourselves. Like we're, it's the meaning of life. Like, why the hell are we here? And a machine currently has to have a hard coded statement about why.

它必须有一条基于人工智能的“生命意义”。

It has to have a meaning of artificial intelligence based life.

对。如果你想让机器擅长某件事，就必须给它非常明确的“擅长”定义。人工智能的挑战之一在于：要解决问题，你必须把它形式化，既要提供完整的感官信息——明确采集哪些数据，也要明确目标函数——你想达到的目标是什么？目前最终还得有一个形式化的目标函数。当然你也可以说，人类同样有一组目标函数在优化，只是我们内省不出来。

Right. If you want a machine to be able to be good at stuff, it has to be given very clear statements of what good at stuff means. That's one of the challenges of artificial intelligence is in order to solve a problem, you have to formalize it and you have to provide both like the full sensory information, you have to be very clear about what is the data that's being collected, and you have to also be clear about the objective function, what is the goal that you're trying to reach? Ultimately, currently, there has to be a formal objective function. Now you could argue that humans also has a set of objective functions we're trying to optimize, we're just not able to introspect them.

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If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. Right now, AG1 is giving away an AG1 welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2. Today's episode is also brought to us by Maui Nui Venison. Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient dense and delicious red meat available.

它的来源也符合伦理。Maui Nui 在毛伊岛上猎捕野生梅花鹿，既解决了入侵物种的管理问题，又提供了优质的蛋白质来源。正如我之前在节目中提到的，大多数人每天应按每磅体重摄入约1克优质蛋白质，以优化肌肉蛋白合成，同时帮助抑制食欲并维持良好的代谢健康。

It's also ethically sourced. Maui Nui hunts and harvest wild access deer on the island of Maui. This solves the problem of managing an invasive species while also creating an extraordinary source of protein. As I've discussed on this podcast before, most people should aim for getting one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight each day. This allows for optimal muscle protein synthesis while also helping to reduce appetite and support proper metabolic health.

鉴于 Maui Nui 的蛋白质与热量比例极佳，这一目标无需摄入过多热量即可实现。它们的鹿肉每份仅107千卡却含21克蛋白质，对希望增肌或维持肌肉量同时关注代谢健康的人来说是理想比例。产品有鹿排、鹿肉馅和鹿骨汤，我个人都很喜欢。事实上，我几乎每天都会吃一个 Maui Nui 的鹿肉汉堡。

Given Maui Nui's exceptional protein to calorie ratio, this protein target is achievable without having to eat too many calories. Their venison delivers 21 grams of protein with only 107 grams per serving, which is an ideal ratio for those of us concerned with maintaining or increasing muscle mass while supporting metabolic health. They have venison steaks, ground venison, and venison bone broth. I personally love all of them. In fact, I probably eat a Maui Nui venison burger pretty much every day.

如果哪天没吃汉堡，我就会吃一块他们的鹿排，有时也喝他们的骨汤。如果外出，他们有 Maui Nui 鹿肉棒，每根10克蛋白质仅55千卡，我每天至少吃一根来满足蛋白质需求。现在，Maui Nui 为 Huberman 播客听众提供我精选的限量产品组合。

And if I don't do that, I eat one of their steaks. And sometimes I also consume their bone broth. And if you're on the go, they have Maui Nui venison sticks, which have 10 grams of protein per stick with just 55 calories. I eat at least one of those a day to meet my protein requirements. Right now, Maui Nui is offering Huberman podcast listeners a limited collection of my favorite cuts and products.

它非常适合想用美味优质蛋白改善饮食的人。库存有限，请访问 maunuivenesin.com/huberman 立即获取这些高品质肉类。再次强调，网址是 mauinuivenison.com/huberman。

It's perfect for anyone looking to improve their diet with delicious high quality protein. Supplies are limited, so go to maunuivenesin.com/huberman to get access to this high quality meat today. Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman.

与机器人互动会改变你吗？换句话说，我们会与机器人建立关系吗？我相信大多数人内心深处都有一种我们尚未发现、尚未探索的孤独感。我认为人工智能系统能帮助我们探索这种孤独，从而成为更好的人类、更好地对待彼此。因此，我认为人类与AI、人类与机器人之间的联系不仅可能，而且会让我们以比以往深几个数量级的方式理解自己。

Does interacting with a robot change you? Does it in other words, do do we develop relationships to robots? I believe that most people have a notion of loneliness in them that we haven't discovered, that that we haven't explored, I should say. And I see AI systems as helping us explore that so that we can become better humans, better people towards each other. So, I think that connection between human and AI, human and robot is not only possible, but will help us understand ourselves in ways that are like several orders of magnitude deeper than we ever could have imagined.

所以当我思考人际关系时，并不总把它们拆成变量，但我们可以探讨几个变量，看看它们如何映射到人机关系。一个是时间。如果你与另一个人完全零接触——无论是线上、电话还是面对面——你们就毫无关系；花很多时间，就有了关系。

So when I think about human relationships, I don't always break them down into variables, but we could explore a few a few of those variables and see how they map to human robot relationships. One is just time. Right? If you spend zero time with another person at all in in cyberspace or on the phone or in person, you essentially have no relationship to them. If you spend a lot of time, you have a relationship.

这显而易见，但时间是一个变量：你与对方（无论是机器人还是人类）共度了多少时间。另一个是一起取得的胜利与成功；还有一起经历的失败——当你与某人共同挣扎时。

This is obvious, but I guess one variable would be time. How much time you spend with the other entity, robot or human. The other would be wins and successes. You enjoy successes together. The other would be failures when you struggle with somebody.

当你与某人一起经历困难，你们会更亲近。我从未这样概念化过机器人与人类的互动。请多告诉我这可能是什么样子。我们在讨论人形机器人吗？理想的人机关系是什么？

When you struggle with somebody, you grow closer. So I've never conceptualized robot human interactions this way. So tell me more about how this might look. Are we thinking about a human appearing robot? What is the ideal human robot relationship?

这里有很多可说，但你确实指出了关键的第一步——时间概念。我认为，仅就“共度时光”这一点，抛开其他一切，仅仅共享时刻，就会改变一切。我相信这会改变一切。至于更系统的具体细节，我可以解释，但偏技术，可能得线下聊，因为我对如何革新社交网络和操作系统有些疯狂的想法。但重点是，仅共享时刻这一点，就能改变一切。

So, there's a lot to be said here, but you actually pinpointed one of the big, big first steps, which is this idea of time. I think that time element, forget everything else, just sharing moments together, that changes everything. I believe that changes everything. Now, there's specific things that are more in terms of systems that I can explain you, it's more technical and probably a little bit offline, because I have kind of wild ideas how that can revolutionize social networks and operating systems. But the point is that element alone, forget all the other things we're talking about, emotions, saying no, all that, just remember sharing moments together would change everything.

我们目前没有能“共享时刻”的系统。比如你深夜去冰箱偷吃不该吃的东西，那是你与冰箱共享的秘密时刻。你们一起经历了那一刻，无论是黑暗还是美好——比如你因心碎而吃冰淇淋——那都是特殊时刻。冰箱错过了记住这一刻的机会，这很悲剧。

We don't currently have systems that share moments together. Like even just you and your fridge, just all those times you went late at night and ate the thing you shouldn't have eaten, that was a secret moment you had with your refrigerator. You shared that moment, that darkness or that beautiful moment where you just, you know, like heartbroken for some reason, you're eating that ice cream or whatever, that's a special moment. And that refrigerator was there for you. And the fact that it missed the opportunity to remember that is tragic.

一旦它记住了，我想你会对这台冰箱产生很深的感情。你会和这台冰箱一起经历一些地狱时刻。我们大多数生活在发达世界的人，和食物之间都有奇怪的关系，对吧？所以你会在食物上经历一些深刻的创伤与胜利时刻，而核心就是冰箱。所以一台智能冰箱，我相信会改变社会，不只是冰箱，而是我们周围这些系统中的理念。

And once it does remember that, I think you're gonna be very attached to the refrigerator. You're gonna go through some hell with that refrigerator. Most of us have like, in a developed world, have weird relationships with food, right? So you can go through some deep moments of trauma and triumph with food and at the core of that is the refrigerator. So a smart refrigerator, I believe would change society, not just the refrigerator, but these ideas in the systems all around us.

所以，我想评论一下“时间”这个观念有多强大。然后还有大量关于实际互动的元素，让你作为一个人感觉自己被倾听，真正被倾听，真正被理解。我认为有很多想法可以让AI系统提出正确的问题，真正倾听另一个人。这也是我们尝试通过播客做的事情，对吧？我觉得AI也能做到这一点。

So that, I just want to comment on how powerful that idea of time is. And then there's a bunch of elements of actual interaction of allowing you as a human to feel like you're being heard, truly heard, truly understood. And I think there's a lot of ideas of how to make AI systems to be able to ask the right questions and truly hear another human. This is what we try to do with podcasting, right? I think there's ways to do that with AI.

但最重要的是，记住那些构成一天、一周、一个月的瞬间。我想你可能也有类似经历。我最亲密的朋友里，很多还是高中同学。那就是时间，我们一起经历了一堆破事。我们变成了很不一样的人，但正因为一起经历了那些，我们记得那些瞬间，而这些瞬间以别的方式无法达到的深厚连接把我们绑在一起，就像你和你的冰箱。也许有些关系会比我们现在能想象到的任何关系都更好，而这些关系正是由机器互动教给我们的。

But above all else, just remembering the collection of moments that make up the day, the week, the months, I think you maybe have some of this as well. Some of my closest friends still are the friends from high school. That's time, we've been through a bunch of shit together. And that, like, we're very different people, but just the fact that we've been through that and we remember those moments and those moments somehow create a depth of connection like nothing else, like you and your refrigerator. There may be relationships that are far better than the sorts of relationships that we can conceive in our minds right now based on what these machine relationship interactions could teach us.

我理解得对吗？

Do I have that right?

对，我觉得没错。我认为没有理由把机器看作无法教给我们深刻人性的事物。我不觉得人类对此有垄断权。我们对自己了解得很浅，我们需要来自机器的提示。

Yeah. I think so. I think there's no reason to see machines as somehow incapable of teaching us something that's deeply human. I don't think humans have a monopoly on that. I think we understand ourselves very poorly and we need to have the kind of prompting from a machine.

也许我们想优化的并不是那些性感、快速的片段，而是长篇的真实。深度。从非常具体的工程角度看，深度是一个迷人且尚未被真正研究的开放问题。早年以及最近几年，我和一些机器人互动时，我意识到那里有魔法。

Maybe the thing we want to optimize for isn't necessarily like some sexy, like quick clips, maybe what we want is long form authenticity. Depth. Depth. From very specific engineering perspective is I think a fascinating open problem that hasn't been really worked on very much. Early on in life, and also in the recent years, I've interacted with a few robots where I understood there's magic there.

如果这种魔法被揭示出来，千百万人都能分享。我第一次见到波士顿动力的Spot时，我意识到那里有别人没看到的魔法。是那只狗。抱歉，是那只狗。Spot是波士顿动力的四足机器人，有些人可能见过那只黄色机器狗。

And that magic could be shared by millions if it's brought to light. When I first met Spot from Boston Dynamics, I realized there's magic there that nobody else is seeing. Is the dog. Is it the dog, sorry. The Spot is the four legged robot from Boston Dynamics, some people might have seen it as this yellow dog.

这种魔法可以存在于世界上每一台设备里。就像乔布斯看待个人电脑那样。所以对我来说，我希望看到一个人人家都有机器人的世界，不是那种洗碗的机器人，而是更像伴侣。

This magic is something that could be every single device in the world. The way that I think maybe Steve Jobs thought about the personal computer. And so for me, I'd love to see a world where there's every home has a robot and not a robot that washes the dishes, but more like a companion.

一位家庭成员。

A family member.

一位家庭成员，就像狗那样，但一只能说你语言的狗。所以它既能像狗那样通过看你、移开视线、用灵魂“微笑”来连接，也能真正理解你——理解你为什么为成功如此兴奋，理解细节，理解创伤。

A family member, the way a dog is, but a dog that's able to speak your language too. So, just connect the way a dog does by looking at you and looking away and almost like smiling with its soul in that kind of way, but also to actually understand what the hell, like, why are you so excited about the successes? Like understand the details, understand the traumas.

我喜欢这种想要分享与机器人互动喜悦的冲动。听你描述时，我竟开始渴望这种体验，因为我们从小到大会遇到某些瞬间，会迫不及待想让别人也感同身受。你说得对，很多人对人工智能、对机器人感到恐惧。我唯一的机器人体验就是Roomba扫地机，它到处跑，Costello掉毛时它吸得挺干净，我很感激；可一旦我在开会它被电线卡住，我又会对它发火：你在干嘛？

I love this desire to share the delight of an interaction with a robot. And as you describe it, I actually, I find myself starting to crave that because we all have those elements from childhood where, or from adulthood, where we experience something we want other people to feel that. And I think that you're right, I think a lot of people are scared of AI. I think a lot of people are scared of robots. My only experience of a robotic like thing is my Roomba vacuum, where it goes about, I actually was pretty good at picking up Costello's hair when he was shed and I was grateful for it, but then when I was on a call or something and it would get caught on a wire or something, I would find myself getting upset with the Roomba in that moment, I'm like, what are you doing?

显然它只是按程序工作，这算是一次大体正面、略有小摩擦的互动。而你描述的那种关系层次丰富、细节满满，我只能想象那是怎样的体验。

You know, and obviously it's just doing what it does, But that's a kind of mostly positive, but slightly negative interaction. But what you're describing has so much more richness and layers of detail that I can only imagine what those relationships are like.

先插一句，我现在在波士顿，从iRobot那儿弄了一堆Roomba，做了个实验。

Well, there's a few, just a quick comment. So I've had, they're currently in Boston, I have a bunch of Roombas from iRobot, and I did this experiment.

等等，多少台Roomba？听起来像一支Roomba舰队。

Wait, how many Roombas? Sounds like a fleet of Roombas.

嗯，大概七八台。

Yeah, so probably seven or eight.

确实不少。那这七台左右，你一次全放出来？

Yeah, that's a lot of Roombas. So, have these seven or so Roombas, you deploy all seven at once?

哦不，我分别做不同实验。其中一项，我让它们被踢或碰到时发出痛苦尖叫和呻吟，想看看自己会有什么感觉。本来想做条YouTube视频，后来觉得太残忍了。

Oh, no, I do different experiments with them. So, one of the things I wanna mention, I got them to scream in pain and moan in pain whenever they were kicked or contacted. And I did that experiment to see how I would feel. I meant to do like a YouTube video on it, but then it just seemed very cruel.

有Roomba权益保护人士跳出来抗议吗？

Did any Roomba rights activists come out?

有一个。我觉得真发那视频，会显得我疯了——虽然大家早就觉得我不正常。

Yeah, one. Like, I think if I release that video, I think it's gonna make me look insane, which I know people know I'm already insane. Now

那你更得把视频发出来。

you have to release the video.

当然，我想也许我可以先展示其他机器人来提供背景，说明为什么这很迷人，因为最终我几乎立刻就觉得他们像人类了。那种疼痛的表现就是关键。

Sure, well, think maybe if I contextualize it by showing other robots, like to show why this is fascinating, because ultimately I felt like they were human almost immediately. And that display of pain was what did that.

给它们一个声音。

Giving them a voice.

给它们一个声音，尤其是一个讨厌疼痛的声音。

Giving them a voice, especially a voice of dislike of pain.

那这个视频能在网上看到吗？

So is the video available online?

没有，我还没录。只是在我波士顿的住处打了一堆会痛苦尖叫的扫地机器人。

No, I haven't recorded it. Just hit a bunch of Roombas that are able to scream in pain in my Boston place.

那像欢呼和喜悦的叫声呢？

What about like shouts of glee and delight?

嗯，我不知道怎么做，对我来说喜悦是安静的，对吧？但可以把它的蠢萌框成可爱，你会因为它的笨而跟它产生连接。我觉得这是人工智能的一个有趣问题。我认为缺陷应该是特性，而不是漏洞。

Well, I don't know how to, to me delight is quiet, right? But there's a way to frame it being quite dumb as almost cute, you know, almost connecting with it for its dumbness. And I think that's an artificial intelligence problem. Interesting. I think flaws should be a feature, not a bug.

所以，沿着这个思路，人与机器人可以有各种关系，有恐惧，也有积极的关系，维度很多，值得探索。但关系中的权力动态很有趣，因为最显而易见的、最粗浅的看法就是主仆关系，对吧？可还有操控，还有善意的操控。

So, along the lines of this, the different sorts of relationships that one could have with robots and the fear, but also some of the positive relationships that one could have, there's so much dimensionality, there's so much to explore. But power dynamics in relationships are very interesting because the the obvious ones that the unsophisticated view of this is, you know, one, there's a master and a servant. Right? But there's also manipulation. There's benevolent manipulation.

你知道，小孩对父母就这样。小狗也这样。小狗歪头卖萌，可能还发出一点小声音。小孩会咕咕叫。父母总觉得他们这样做是因为爱父母。

You know, children do this with parents. Puppies do this. Puppies turn their head and look cute and maybe give out a little little noise. Kids, coo. And parents always think that they're, you know, they're doing this because, you know, they they love the parent.

但研究表明，那些咕咕声其实是孩子无意识地从父母那里引出他们想要的行为和反应的方式。孩子并不知道自己正在这么做，完全是潜意识的，但这是一种善意的操控。所以关于机器人，我常听到的一种恐惧是机器人接管世界，成为主人，我们变成仆人，这大多数人都能理解。但也可能有另一种版本，在某些圈子里——我当然不是其中一员——他们叫“从下方做主导”，机器人其实在操控你去做事，而你却相信自己才是掌控者。

But in many ways, studies show that those coos are ways to extract the sorts of behaviors and expressions from the parent that they want. The child doesn't know it's doing this. It's completely subconscious, but it's benevolent manipulation. So there's one version of fear of robots that I hear a lot about that I think most people can relate to where the robots take over and they become the masters and we become the servants. But there could be another version that, you know, in certain communities that I'm certainly not a part of, but they call topping from the bottom, where the robot is actually manipulating you into doing things, but you are under the belief that you are in charge.

但实际上，它们才是主导。所以我想如果我们能稍微探讨一下这个问题，你可以想象这未必是坏事，尽管它可能导致糟糕的后果。我想探讨的原因是，人们总是默认走向极端，比如机器人接管世界，我们被关在小牢房里，而它们在外面的宇宙逍遥。那么，机器人可能进行哪些好或坏的操控呢？

But actually, they're in charge. And so I think that's one that if we could explore that for a second, you could imagine it wouldn't necessarily be bad, although it could lead to bad things. The reason I want to explore this is I think people always default to the extreme, like the robots take over and we're in little jail cells and they're out having universe. What sorts of manipulation can a robot potentially carry out good or bad?

是的，人类之间就有很多好的和坏的操控，对吧？就像你说的，对我来说，尤其是你提到的“从下而上掌控”，是这个词吗？所以我

Yeah. So, there's a lot of good and bad manipulation between humans, right? Just like you said, to me, especially, like you said, topping from the bottom, is that the term? So, I

我想是MIT的某个人告诉我的这个词，不是Lax。

think someone from MIT told me that term. Wasn't lax.

我觉得，首先，床上、恋爱关系、街头以及工作环境里都存在权力动态，这些都非常不同。我认为权力动态可以让人类关系，尤其是恋爱关系，变得迷人、丰富、充实、刺激等等。所以，它们本身并不坏。机器人也一样。我真的很喜欢机器人在权力动态中扮演“上位”或“下位”的想法，我认为每个人都应该意识到这一点。

I think, so first of all, there's power dynamics in bed and power dynamics in relationships and power dynamics on the street and in the work environment, those are all very different. I think power dynamics can make human relationships, especially romantic relationships, fascinating and rich and fulfilling and exciting and all those kinds of things. So, don't think in themselves they're bad. And the same goes with robots. I really love the idea that a robot would be a top or a bottom in terms of like power dynamics, and I think everybody should be aware of that.

这种操控与其说是操控，不如说是一种拉扯、推与拉的舞蹈。至于控制，我认为我们离能够把我们关起来的AI系统还非常遥远。把我们关起来，让它们拥有如此多的控制，以至于我们无法按自己的方式生活。我认为，AI系统的危险更多体现在自主武器系统等方面，也就是国家之间、战争等层面的权力斗争。

And the manipulation is not so much manipulation, but a dance of like pulling away, push and pull and all those kinds of things. In terms of control, I think we're very, very, very far away from AI systems that are able to lock us up. To lock us up in, you know, like to have so much control that we basically cannot live our lives in the way that we want. I think there's, in terms of dangers of AI systems, there's much more dangers that have to do with autonomous weapon systems and all those kinds of things. So, the power dynamics as exercised in the struggle between nations and war and all those kinds of things.

但在个人关系层面，我认为权力动态是美好的。我确实相信机器人将来会拥有权利。我认为为了与机器人建立深刻、有意义的关系，我们必须把它们视为值得尊重的独立实体。这是一个非常有趣的概念，人们开始越来越多地讨论，但我们很难理解非人类实体——就像狗和其他动物一样——如何能在与人类同等的层面上拥有权利。

But in terms of personal relationships, I think power dynamics are a beautiful thing. I do believe that robots will have rights down the line. And I think in order for us to have deep, meaningful relationship with robots, we would have to consider them as entities in themselves that deserve respect. And that's a really interesting concept that I think people are starting to talk about a little bit more, but it's very difficult for us to understand how entities that are other than human, I mean, the same as with dogs and other animals can have rights on a level as humans.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商之一Function。去年，我在寻找最全面的实验室检测方法时，成为了Function的会员。Function提供100多项先进实验室检测，为你整个身体健康提供关键快照。这份快照能让你了解心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等等。他们最近还增加了检测BPA等来自有害塑料的毒素，以及PFAS或“永久化学品”的测试。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFAS or forever chemicals.

Function不仅检测100多种与你的身心健康密切相关的生物标志物，还会分析这些结果，并由相关领域的顶尖医生提供见解。例如，在我第一次使用Function的检测中，我发现自己血液中的汞含量偏高。Function不仅帮我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最佳降低汞水平的建议，包括减少金枪鱼摄入。我一直在吃很多金枪鱼，同时也努力多吃绿叶蔬菜，并补充NAC和乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都能支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。我应该说，通过第二次Function检测，这种方法确实有效。

Function not only provides testing of over a 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption. I've been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by taking a second function test, that approach worked.

全面的血液检测至关重要。与你的身心健康相关的许多问题只能通过血液检测发现。问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。相比之下，Function的简便性和成本水平让我印象深刻，非常实惠。因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了播客。

Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function simplicity and at the level of cost, it is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

如果你想尝试Function，可以访问functionhealth.com/huberman。Function目前有25万多人的等待名单，但他们为Huberman播客听众提供优先访问权。再次提醒，访问functionhealth.com/huberman即可获得Function的优先访问权。今天的节目也由David赞助。David生产一种与众不同的蛋白棒。

If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to function. Today's episode is also brought to us by David. David makes a protein bar unlike any other.

它含有28克蛋白质，只有150卡路里，零克糖。没错，28克蛋白质，其中75%的热量来自蛋白质。这比第二高的蛋白棒高出50%。DAVID蛋白棒的味道也令人惊叹，连口感都棒极了。

It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein. This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar. DAVID protein bars also tastes amazing. Even the texture is amazing.

我最喜欢的口味是巧克力曲奇面团，但话又说回来，我也喜欢新的巧克力花生酱口味和巧克力布朗尼口味。基本上，我非常喜欢所有口味。它们都极其美味。事实上，最大的挑战是每天该吃哪几种、吃几次。我限制自己每天最多两根，但我实在太爱它们了。

My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavor. Basically, I like all the flavors a lot. They're all incredibly delicious. In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day. I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them.

有了David，我可以在一份零食的卡路里中获得28克蛋白质，这让我轻松实现每天每磅体重摄入1克蛋白质的目标，同时不会摄入过多热量。我大多数下午都会把David蛋白棒当零食吃。出门或旅行时，我总会随身带一根。它们极其美味，而且因为含有28克蛋白质，仅150卡路里就能带来很强的饱腹感。

With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day. And it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories. I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack. And I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling. They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories.

如果你想尝试David，请访问davidprotein.com/huberman。再说一遍，davidprotein.com/huberman。我们不能、也不应该对动物为所欲为。我们有美国农业部，有农业部门负责动物护理和使用委员会，用于研究、农业、农场和牧场等等。所以，我——虽然你第一次说的时候，我想，等等。

If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman. Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman. We can't and nor should we do whatever we want with animals. We have a USDA, have departments of agriculture that deal with, you know, animal care and use committees for research, for agri you know, for farming and ranching and all that. So I I while I when you first said it, I thought, wait.

为什么会有机器人权利法案？但在我们到目前为止讨论的所有内容背景下，这绝对说得通。如果你愿意，我们来聊聊狗吧，因为你已经几次提到狗，机器狗，你也养过生物狗。

Why would have there'll be a bill of robotic rights? But it absolutely makes sense in the context of everything we've been talking about up until now. Let's if you're willing, I'd love to talk about dogs, because you've mentioned dogs a couple times, a robot dog. You had a biological dog.

是的。我在美国养过一只叫Homer的纽芬兰犬，养了很多年。

Yeah. Yeah, I had a Newfoundland named Homer for many years growing up.

在俄罗斯还是在美国？

In Russia or in The US?

在美国。他大约——超过200磅，那是条大狗。

In The United States. And he was about he's over 200 pounds, that's a big dog.

那是条大狗。

That's a big dog.

如果大家了解纽芬兰犬，就是那种黑色长毛、心地特别善良的大狗。我想很多大型犬都这样，但他总觉得自己是小狗，所以动作也像小狗。

If people know Newfoundland, he's this black dog that's really long hair and just a kind soul. I think perhaps that's true for a lot of large dogs, but he thought he was a small dog, so he moved like that.

他是你的狗吗？是的。所以你从他很小的时候就养他了？

Was he your dog? Yeah. So you had him since he was fairly young?

从非常非常小的时候，一直到非常非常最后。我想说的是，他有一种——我们提到过扫地机器人——他有一种让人无法抗拒的、善良的傻气。这也是我给他取名Homer的原因之一，因为是取自《辛普森一家》的Homer，以防大家疑惑我指的是哪个Homer。不是那个……你懂的？还有《奥德赛》的那位。

Since the very, very beginning till the very, very end. And one of the things I mean, he had this kind of we mentioned like the Roombas, he had kind hearted dumbness about him that was just overwhelming. Part of the reason I named him Homer, because it's after Homer Simpson, in case people are wondering which Homer I'm referring to. I'm not you know? There's a Odyssey.

对，没错。就是那种笨拙感，让我们立刻彼此深爱。我想说的是，他总是在——那些共度的时光。那么多夜晚，他都陪在我身边。

Yeah. Exactly. There's a clumsiness that was just something that immediately led to a deep love for each other. And one of the I mean, he was always it's the shared moments. He was always there for so many nights together.

这就是狗最打动人的地方：他陪我度过所有孤独、所有艰难、所有成功与种种时刻。我记得，那一刻对我真的很震撼，我至今仍然想他。

Powerful That's thing about a dog that he was there through all the loneliness, through all the tough times, through the successes and all those kinds of things. And I remember, I mean, that was a really moving moment for me, I still miss him to this day.

他去世多久了？

How long ago did he die?

大概十五年前吧。已经过去很久了，但那是我第一次真正体会到死亡的感觉。事情是他得了癌症，慢慢走向死亡。后来有一天他再也站不起来。有很多事我至今纠结，也许他承受痛苦的时间比必要的更长。

Maybe fifteen years ago. So it's been a while, but it was the first time I've really experienced like the feeling of death. So what happened is he got cancer and so he was dying slowly. And then at a certain point he couldn't get up anymore. There's a lot of things I could say here that I struggle with, that maybe he suffered much longer than he needed to.

这是我经常回想的事。我记得我得带他去医院，护士抬不动他，对吧？你想想看，一条两百磅的狗，我当时又在练力量举。我记得他们想了各种办法……为了给他安乐死，得先把他送进一个房间，所以我得一路抱着他。

That's something I really think about a lot. But I remember I had to take him to the hospital and the nurses couldn't carry him, right? So you talk about a 200 pound dog, and I was really into power lifting at the time. I remember, like they tried to figure out all these kinds of ways to So in order to put them to sleep, they had to take them into a room. And so I had to carry them everywhere.

这就是我那位垂死的朋友，我得——首先，抱一个完全不配合的这么重的家伙真的很吃力。我记得那是我第一次看着一个朋友躺在那里，看着生命从他身体里流逝。那种“我们在这世上时间很短”的认知变得无比真实：一周前、一天前他还在我身边，现在就没了。我不知道，这让我明白你可以和一只狗建立如此深厚的连接，也让我明白那些一起度过的时光造就了这段深厚的友谊，让生活如此精彩，但也让我明白死亡真他妈残酷。我知道你最近失去了Costello。

And here's this dying friend of mine that I just had to, first of all, it's really difficult to carry somebody that heavy when they're not helping you out. And yeah, so I remember it was the first time seeing a friend laying there and seeing life drained from his body. And that realization that we're here for a short time was made so real, that here's a friend that was there for me the week before, the day before, and now he's gone. And that was, I don't know, that spoke to the fact that you could be deeply connected with a dog, also spoke to the fact that the shared moments together that led to that deep friendship is are will make life so amazing, but also spoke to the fact that death is a motherfucker. So I know you've lost Costello recently

嗯。

Yeah.

你一直在……

And you've been going

听你说这些的时候，我真的在强忍泪水。我……我感谢你分享这些，我想我们俩马上就要为我们的死去的狗哭一场了，既然聊到这儿，这似乎也是不可避免的。

And as you're saying this, I'm definitely fighting back the tears. I I thank you for sharing that, that I guess we're about to both cry over our dead dogs, that it was bound to happen just given when this is happening.

是啊。你是什么时候开始意识到Costello状态不好的？

Yeah. It's How long did you know that Costello was not doing well?

让我想想。大约一年前，疫情开始大概六个月的时候，他开始长脓肿，行为变了，真的有些不对劲。后来我给他用了睾酮，这对很多症状都有帮助。虽然没完全治愈，但缓解了他很多毛病，关节痛、睡眠问题等等。之后就一路慢慢恶化，直到两三周前，他有一整柜子的药。

Well, let's see. A year ago during the start of about six months into the pandemic, he started getting abscesses, he was not his behavior changed and something really changed. And then I put him on testosterone because which helped a lot of things. It certainly didn't cure everything, but it helped a lot of things he was dealing with, joint pain, sleep issues. And then it just became a very slow decline to the point where, you know, two, three weeks ago, he had, you know, a closet full of medication.

我是说，这狗简直……像个药房。前几天我去看的时候都惊呆了。我还没收拾、把他的东西清掉，因为我真的下不了手。

I mean, this dog was yeah. It was like a pharmacy. It's amazing to me when I looked at it the other day. Still haven't cleaned up and removed all his things because I can't quite bring myself to do it. But

你觉得他在受苦吗？

Do you think he was suffering?

事情是这样的，大约一周前，真的就一周，很突然。他上楼时我看着他滑了一下。他是条大狗，没到两百磅，但也有九十磅左右，作为斗牛犬算很壮了，而且体型保持得很好。然后我注意到他后腿不着力，好像受伤了，其实完全没知觉。

Well, so what happened was about a week ago, it was really just about a week ago, it's amazing. He was going up the stairs, I saw him slip. He was a big dog. He wasn't two hundred pounds, but he was about ninety pounds, but he's a bulldog, that's pretty big and he was fit. And then I noticed that he wasn't carrying a foot in the back like it was injured, it had no feeling at all.

他从来不喜欢我碰他的后爪。我碰的时候那只脚就软软地耷拉着。兽医发现他的脊柱有些退化，说下一次就会……他受苦了吗？希望没有，但他的眼神变了。

He never liked me to touch his hind paws. And I could do that thing was just flopping there. And then the vet found some spinal degeneration and I was told that the next one would go. Did he suffer? Sure hope not, but something changed in his eyes.

对，又是眼神。我知道咱俩常在电话里聊眼神，聊它们传达什么、对内在状态意味着什么，既为了机器人也为了其他生命。但……

Yeah. It's the eyes again. I know you and I spend long hours on the phone and talking about like the eyes and how, what they convey and what they mean about internal states and forsake of robots and biology of other kinds. But Do you

你觉得他眼神里有什么东西消失了吗？

think something about him was gone in his eyes?

我觉得他……我在拟人化了。我觉得他意识到，自己人生的一大乐趣——走路、闻味、到处撒尿——

I think he was real Here I am anthropomorphizing. I think he was realizing that one of his great joys in life, which was to walk and sniff and pee on things. This

狗——基本要素。

dog- The fundamentals.

喜欢到处撒尿，太神奇了。我都好奇他哪来的那么多尿。他就像个尿水库，不可思议。我想，哦，就这样了，他只是，他在第五千万株植物上只留了一滴。然后到了第五千万零一株，他又能留下一滩。

Loved to pee on things, it was amazing. I wondered where he put it. He was like a reservoir of urine, it was incredible. I think, oh, that's it, he's just, he put like one drop on the fifty millionth plant. And then we get to the fifty millionth and one plan, and he just have, leave a puddle.

结果我现在在这儿说科斯特洛撒尿的事。他已经站不稳了，撒尿时会摔倒。我觉得他开始意识到了，离开的过程很平和，但，你知道，我要说，我不羞于承认，我每天早上醒来，甚至不是有意识地让自己哭，我就是哭着醒来。幸好有朋友们、你和家人的支持，我才能撑过一天，但我真的想他，兄弟。

And here I am talking about Costello peeing. He was losing that ability to stand up and do that. He was falling down while he was doing that. And I do think he started to realize, and the passage was easy and peaceful, but, you know, I'll say this, I'm not ashamed to say it, I mean, I wake up every morning since then, just, I don't even make the conscious decision to allow my self to cry, I wake up crying. And I'm fortunately able to make it through the day, thanks to the great support of my friends and you and my family, but I miss him, man.

你想他？

You miss him?

嗯，我想他。我觉得他，你知道，霍默·科斯特洛，人和狗之间的关系是那么特别，

Yeah, I miss him. And I feel like he, you know, Homer Costello, you know, the relationship to one's dog is so specific,

但那一部分的你也就随之消失了。这才是最难的。

but So that part of you is gone. That's the hard thing.

你知道，我觉得不一样的是，我犯了个错，我希望那是个正确的决定，但有时我觉得我把科斯特洛通过播客、通过发帖带到了公众面前，是个错误。我在公开场合把他拟人化了。说实话，我根本不知道他的精神生活是怎样的，也不知道他和我真正的关系。我第一次经历这些，因为他是我养的第一只狗，我从他七周大就开始养他。

You know, I think is different is that I made the mistake, I think, I hope it was a good decision, but sometimes I think I made the mistake of I brought Costello a little bit to the world through the podcast, through posting about him. Gave I anthropomorphized about him in public. Let's be honest, I have no idea what his mental life was or his relationship to me. And I'm just exploring all this for the first time because he was my first dog, but I raised him since he was seven weeks.

嗯，你得撑住。我注意到你周一发布的那期节目里提到了科斯特洛，那一刻你仿佛让他又活在了我眼前。

Yeah, you got to hold it together. I noticed the episode you released on Monday, you mentioned Costello, like you brought him back to life for me for that brief moment.

是啊，但他已经不在了。

Yeah, but he's gone.

这对很多人来说，他也会永远消失。

That's the he's going to be gone for a lot of people too.

嗯，这就是我现在纠结的地方。我知道怎么把自己照顾得挺好。是的，不算完美，但已经很不错了。而且我有很好的支持。

Well, this is what I'm struggling with. I know how to take care of myself pretty well. Yeah. Not perfectly, but pretty well. And I have good support.

我确实有点担心这会带来什么影响，别人会怎么想。我担心他们的内心感受。所以这仍然是我不断调整的地方。

I do worry a little bit about how it's going to land and how people will feel. I'm concerned about their internalization. So that's something I'm still iterating on.

他们还得看着你挣扎，这真让人感慨。

And they have to watch you struggle, which is fascinating.

对。我大部分时间都在保护他们不被这些影响，但最让我开心的是，如果人们能内化科斯特洛最棒的品质，他最棒的地方是他极其坚韧。我是说，他天生就是一条22英寸脖子的斗牛犬，总之，他天生如此。但最美妙的是，他的坚韧从来不是他用来炫耀的东西，而是他的甜美和善良。所以，如果人们能学到这一点，那就算是一种胜利。

Right. I've mostly been shielding them from this, but what would make me happiest is if people would internalize some of Costello's best traits and his best traits were that he was incredibly tough. I mean, he was a, you know, 22 neck bulldog, the whole thing, he was just born that way. But what was so beautiful is that his toughness is never what he rolled forward, it was just how sweet and kind he was. And so, if people can take that, then there's a win in there someplace.

所以

So

我觉得在某种程度上，你也应该让你的播客继续承载这些。你应该——我是说，我特别喜欢他在你播客里的角色，因为他给你带来了那么多快乐。我提到了机器人，对吧？我觉得把那份快乐带进来——让自己体验那份快乐，把快乐带给别人，与别人分享——这真的很强大。我不是要——这有点像俄式思维——但路易·CK在他的节目《路易》里有一段让我一直记得，一个老人批评路易因为分手而抱怨，他说爱最美的地方，就是失去。

I think there's some ways in which you should probably live on in your podcast too. You should I mean, it's such a one of the things I loved about his role in your podcast is that he brought so much joy to you. I mentioned the robots, right? I think that's such a powerful thing to bring that joy into, like allowing yourself to experience that joy, to bring that joy to others, to share it with others, that's really powerful. And I mean, not to This is like the Russian thing is It touched me when Louis CK had that moment that I keep thinking about in his show Louis, where like an old man was criticizing Louis for whining about breaking up with his girlfriend, and he was saying like the most beautiful thing about love, mean, song that's catchy now that's not making me feel horrible saying it, but like is the loss.

失去真的也让你意识到那个人、那只狗对你有多重要。允许自己去感受那份失去，而不是逃避，这真的很强大。某种程度上，这份失去也是甜美的，就像那份爱一样甜美，因为你知道你对你的朋友感情很深。所以——继续把那份快乐带出来，我觉得对你的播客来说会很棒。

The loss really also is making you realize how much that person, that dog meant to you. And like allowing yourself to feel that loss and not run away from that loss is really powerful. And in some ways, that's also sweet. Just like the love was, the loss is also sweet because you know that you felt a lot for that, for your friend. So, you know, and like continue to bring that joy, I think it would be amazing to the podcast.

我也希望用机器人或其他带来快乐的东西做到这一点，对吧？也许——你有没有想过哪天再养一只狗？

I hope to do the same with robots or whatever else is the source of joy, right? And maybe, do you think about one day getting another dog?

有啊，慢慢来，你正好戳中了所有关键点。我希望——我们在想一些方法，让科斯特洛以一种真实的方式被铭记，而不是搞个小标志之类无聊的东西。你知道，科斯特洛就像大卫·戈金斯一样，是个人，但戈金斯也变成了一种动词：你要‘戈金斯’一下，或者——还有个形容词，比如‘那很戈金斯’。我觉得对我来说，科斯特洛就是所有这些。

Yeah, in time, you're hitting on all the key buttons here. I want that to, we're thinking about you know, ways to kind of immortalize Costello in a way that's real, not just, you know, creating some little logo or something silly. You know, Costello, much like David Goggins is a a person, but Goggins also has grown into kind of a verb. You're gonna Goggins this, or you're gonna and there's an adjective, like, that's extremely like it. I think that for me, Costello was all those things.

他是一种存在。他是他自己的存在。他是名词，是动词，也是形容词。形容词。他还有一项我梦寐以求的神奇超能力：让所有人都为你做事，而他自己什么都不用做。

He was a he was a being. He was his own being. He was a noun, a verb, and an adjective. Adjective. And he had this amazing superpower that I wish I could get, which is this ability to get everyone else to do things for you without doing a damn thing.

我称之为科斯特洛效应。

The Costello effect as I call it.

所以这是一个想法，我希望他能继续存在。

So it's an idea, I hope he lives on.

我在读研究生时听到过一句话，在这次谈话中它一直在我脑海中回响，我觉得非常贴切：Lexi，你是独一无二的少数人，你真正非凡，能够将科学、工程、公众传播的诸多方面，以及众多话题、武术和你带来的情感深度，还有那种目标感，都浓缩在一起。我想如果人们还不清楚，那绝对应该说出来，但其实已经显而易见——你投入其中的时间和思考，就是尊重的终极体现。所以我非常感激你的友谊，也感激这次谈话。

There's a saying that I heard when I was a graduate student that's just been ringing in my mind throughout this conversation in such a, I think appropriate way, which is that Lexi, you are in a minority of one, you are truly extraordinary in your ability to encapsulate so many aspects of science, engineering, public communication about so many topics, martial arts, and the emotional depth that you bring to it, and just the purposefulness. And I think if it's not clear to people, it absolutely should be stated, but I think it's abundantly clear that just the amount of time and thinking that you put into things, it is the ultimate mark of respect. So I'm just extraordinarily grateful for your friendship and for this conversation.

我为是你的朋友而自豪，我只是希望你能通过穿西装来表现出同样的尊重，也许下次能让你父亲骄傲。

I'm proud to be your friend, and I just wish you showed me the same kind of respect by wearing a suit and make your father proud maybe next time.

那就下次吧。非常感谢，我的朋友。

Next time indeed. Thanks so much, my friend.

谢谢你。谢谢你，Andrew。

Thank you. Thank you, Andrew.