精华：压力、睾酮、攻击性与动机的科学 | 罗伯特·萨波尔斯基博士

欢迎来到Huberman实验室播客，在这里我们讨论科学及基于科学的日常生活工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天，我很荣幸向大家介绍Robert Sapolsky博士。Robert，非常感谢你今天加入我们。

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, I have the pleasure of introducing Doctor. Robert Sapolsky. Thank you so much, Robert, for joining us today.

很高兴来到这里。我想回到一个你非常关心的话题——压力。短期压力和长期压力在益处和弊端上有何区别？我们该如何理解压力？

Glad to be here. I want to return to a topic that is near and dear to your heart, which is stress. What is the difference between short and long term stress in terms of their benefits and their drawback? How should we conceptualize stress?

基本上可以画两条曲线来说明。第一条展示短期压力带来的各种益处。而一旦进入长期状态，情况就急转直下。大多数人面对的长期压力源——比如过去二十年每天遭遇堵车、有个虐待狂上司之类——都明确属于长期范畴。另一条与之垂直的曲线则说明：有时候压力其实是好事。

Basically, sort of two graphs that one would draw. The first one is just all sorts of beneficial effects of stress short term. And then once we get into chronicity, it's just downhill from there. The sorts of chronic stressors that most people deal with are just undeniably in the chronic range, like having spent the last twenty years daily traffic jams or abusive boss or some such thing. The other curve that's sort of perpendicular to this is dealing with the fact that sometimes stress is a great thing.

我们的目标不是消除压力，因为如果是良性的压力，我们反而乐在其中。人们花钱看恐怖片或坐过山车就是为了体验这种压力。你会发现当压力程度适当时，我们称之为'刺激'。

Our goal is not to cure people of stress because if it's the right kind, we love it. We pay good money to be stressed that way by a scary movie or roller coaster ride. What you wind up seeing is when it's the right amount of stress, it's what we call stimulation.

让我非常震惊的是，从生理学角度看，压力反应与对积极事件的兴奋反应如此相似。但关于这种我们称为'效价'的主观特征——即为何相同体验可能令人痛苦也可能美妙——生物学上还有其他发现吗？

One thing that's really striking to me is how physiologically the stress response looks so much like the excitement response to a positive event. But is there anything else that we know about the biology that reveals to us, you know, what what really creates this thing we call valence? That an experience can be terrible or feel awful or it can feel wonderful depending on this somewhat subjective feature we call valence.

从机械层面看，当情境需要你心跳加速、呼吸急促、肌肉发力时，无论面对好事还是坏事，你的大脑激活模式都大致相同——唯一例外是如果杏仁核被激活，这就会被判定为负面体验。某种程度上，杏仁核就像是区分兴奋与恐惧的检查站。

On a really mechanical level, if you're in a circumstance that is requiring that your heart races and you're breathing as fast and you're using your muscles and some such thing, you're gonna be having roughly the same brain activation profile whether this is for something wonderful or something terrible with the one exception being that if the amygdala is part of the activation, this is something that's going to be counting as adverse. The amygdala in some ways is kind of the checkpoint as to whether we're talking about excitement or terror.

让我们以杏仁核为跳板，转向你深耕多年的另一个话题——睾酮等性类固醇激素。考虑到杏仁核的参与是积极兴奋反应与消极压力反应之间的关键转折点，我们该如何理解睾酮在杏仁核中的作用？或者更广泛地说，该如何理解睾酮对大脑的影响？

Let's use the amygdala as a transition point to another topic that you've spent many years working on and thinking about, which is testosterone and other sex steroid hormones. How should we think about the role of testosterone in the amygdala given that the engagement of the amygdala is fundamental in this transition point between a exhilarating positive response and a negative stressful response? Or maybe just broadly, how should we think about testosterone and its effects on the brain?

基本上，绝大多数人对睾酮作用的认知都是错误的——认为睾酮导致攻击性，因为几乎所有物种的雄性都有更高睾酮水平和更强攻击性。但事实并非如此，睾酮不会引发攻击行为。从行为学和杏仁核研究都能看出：它只是降低了触发攻击行为的阈值，让已有倾向更容易显现；它是放大已激活的系统，而非凭空制造攻击性。

Basically, almost everybody out there has completely wrong ideas to what testosterone does, which is testosterone makes you aggressive because males and virtually every species out there have more testosterone and are more aggressive. And the reality is testosterone does no such thing. It doesn't cause aggression. And you can see this both behaviorally and in the amygdala, it lowers the threshold for the sort of things that would normally provoke you into being progressive so that it happens more easily. It makes systems that are already turned on turn on louder rather than turning on aggressive music or some such thing.

它不创造攻击性，只是调高了既有攻击性的音量。

It's not creating aggression. It's just upping the volume of whatever aggression is already there.

明白了。那么在地位关系方面——无论是非人灵长类还是人类——我们能说个体间的睾酮水平差异与阶层地位相关吗？

Yeah. And in terms of status and the relationship between individuals, either nonhuman primates or humans, can we say that relative levels of testosterone between individuals is correlated to status within the hierarchy?

没错。回溯几十年的内分泌学文献，你会发现那些曾被奉为圭臬的结论——比如较高睾酮水平预示着花生和其他动物更具攻击性，睾酮水平越高性活动越频繁。相关性确实存在。但细究之下，我们掌握了因果关系的证据。

Yes. You go back, I don't know, whatever number of decades to endocrinology texts, and they would choose totally reliable findings in there, which is higher levels of testosterone predict higher levels of aggression in peanuts and other animals. Higher levels of testosterone predict higher levels of sexual activity. And the correlation is there. And when you look closely, we've got cause and effect stuff.

性行为会提升睾酮水平。攻击行为也会升高睾酮。而事前的激素水平几乎无法预测后续行为。所以这是结果而非原因。有个有趣的冷知识：如果你怀着战壕里那种视死如归的狂热支持心态，观看心仪球队比赛时，即便瘫在沙发上嚼着薯片，你的睾酮水平也会飙升。

Sexual behavior raises testosterone levels. Aggression raises testosterone levels. Your levels beforehand are barely predicting what's gonna happen. So it's a response rather than a cause. Just a great footnote, if you have the right type of willing to die in the trenches devotion sort of thing, watching your favorite team play a sport will raise your testosterone levels as you sit there with the potato chips in your armchair.

这说明关键不在攻击行为的物理表现，而在于心理框架。因此睾酮并非诱因。最有力的验证方法是开展切除实验——摘除睾丸。

So it's not the physicality of aggression. It's the psychological framing of it. So yeah, testosterone is not causing that. And the great way to appreciate that is you do a subtraction study. You remove the testes.

如前所述，性行为频率会下降。这很好证明了睾酮的某种因果作用。但关键在于：无论是大鼠、猴子还是人类，行为频率都不会归零。而残余性行为的多寡，完全取决于阉割前的性活跃程度。

And as I said before, levels of sexual behavior goes down. Good. We've just shown that testosterone is somehow caused. Critically, they go down, but not down to zero, whether you are a rat or a monkey or a human, whatever. And what predicts how much residual sexual behavior is there, how much sexual behavior there was before castration.

这表明此时行为是由社会学习和环境语境维持的，而非激素驱动。攻击行为同理：阉割后减少但不会消失。既往行为模式越强烈，就越能脱离睾酮独立持续。

What that's telling you is by then, that's behavior that's being carried by social learning and context rather than by the hormone. The exact same thing with aggression. Drops after castration, doesn't go to zero. The more prior history of it, the more it just keeps coasting along on its own, even without testosterone.

请允许我短暂插播感谢赞助商Function。去年在寻找最全面的检测方案时，我成为了Function会员。他们提供100多项高端实验室检测，全面呈现身体健康状况，涵盖心脏健康、激素水平、免疫功能、营养指标等关键领域。Function不仅检测百余项身心健康关键指标，更由顶尖专科医生团队提供结果分析与健康洞见。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. Function not only provides testing of over a 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.

比如我的首次检测就发现血汞超标。Function不仅帮我发现问题，还给出了科学解决方案：减少金枪鱼摄入，同时增加绿叶蔬菜，并补充NAC和乙酰半胱氨酸来促进谷胱甘肽合成排毒。后续复检证实这个方案确实有效。全面血液检测至关重要——许多身心健康问题只能通过血液检测发现。

For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption. I'd been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by taking a second function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.

传统血液检测既昂贵又复杂，而Function的简便性和亲民价格令我印象深刻，因此我决定加入其科学顾问委员会，并很高兴他们赞助本节目。听众可访问functionhealth.com/huberman获取专属通道——目前候补名单已超25万人，但他们为听众提供了优先权限。

There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by function simplicity and at the level of cost, it is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.

本期节目另一赞助商是Element电解质饮品。它只含人体必需的钠、镁、钾电解质黄金配比，零添加糖分。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function. Today's episode is also brought to us by Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need, but nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.

恰当补水对大脑和身体机能至关重要——轻微脱水就会影响认知与体能表现。电解质（钠镁钾）更是所有细胞（尤其是神经元）正常运作的关键。将Element溶于水饮用，能轻松实现科学补水和电解质平衡。

Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking Element dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.

为了确保获得充足的水分和电解质，我每天早上醒来时会将一包Element溶解在约16至32盎司的水中，作为晨起第一件事饮用。在进行任何体能锻炼时，我也会饮用Element水溶液。他们有多种美味口味可供选择，比如西瓜味、柑橘味等等。说实话，每一种我都非常喜欢。

To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of Element in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning. I also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing. They have a bunch of different great tasting flavors of Element. They have watermelon, citrus, etcetera. Frankly, I love them all.

如果你想尝试Element，可以访问drinkelement.com/hubermanlab，购买任意Element冲饮产品即可获赠免费试用装。重申一次，通过drinkelement.com/hubermanlab可领取免费样品包。听您今天和这些年谈论睾酮，我开始觉得这个人类健康中最被误解的分子显然具有某种强大作用——正如您描述的，它改变特定神经回路的工作方式，调节杏仁核的增益。关于睾酮与努力或抗压能力的关系，是否存在某种普遍真理？

If you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/hubermanlab to claim a free Element sample pack with the purchase of any Element drink mix. Again, that's drinkelement.com/hubermanlab to claim a free sample pack. As I've heard you talk about testosterone today and over the years, I start to get the impression that as the most misunderstood molecule in human health in the universe, it it has it it's clearly doing something very powerful. It's it's shifting the way that certain neural circuits work, adjusting the gain on the amygdala as you described. And is there any truism about testosterone, like, and its relationship to effort or its relationship to resilience?

或许这种方式能帮助我和其他人理解该如何看待睾酮。医生。

And in a way that maybe will help me and other people sort of think about how to think about testosterone. Doctor. Yeah.

这个问题可以从三个层面回答。首先，可以这样总结：在激励性强行为方面，睾酮的作用是放大你已有的特质——无论是性冲动、性欲、攻击性、自发攻击还是反应性攻击等。它调高了那些本就强烈存在的特性的音量。第二种理解方式是：关于睾酮我最喜欢的研究发现是...

Maybe three separate answers to that. The first one is, I think it's a fair summary to think that when it comes to motivated strong behaviors, what testosterone does is make you more of whatever you already are. And that too may, sexual arousal, libido, aggressiveness, spontaneous aggression, reactive aggression, things of that sort. It's upping the volume of things that are already strongly there. Second way to think about it is, well, here's my favorite finding about testosterone.

这要归功于顶尖行为内分泌学家约翰·韦恩·菲尔德二十年前提出的睾酮作用挑战假说：睾酮在你地位受到挑战时分泌，促使你更可能采取维护地位所需的行为。

And this was some wonderful work by a guy, John Wayne Field, who's one of the best behavioral endocrinologists out there. And about twenty years ago, he formulated what was called the challenge hypothesis of testosterone action. What does testosterone do? Testosterone is what you secrete when your status is being challenged. And it makes it more likely that you'll do the behaviors needed to hold on to your status.

对狒狒来说这再直白不过——当地位受到高阶同类挑战时，攻击性反应完全合理。看，我们又绕回了睾酮与攻击性的关系。

Okay. So that's totally boringly straightforward if you're a baboon. If somebody is challenging your high rank, the appropriate response on your part is going to be aggression. All right. So we've just gotten through the backdoor testosterone and aggression again.

但人类获取/维持地位的方式多种多样。比如你去私立名校年度拍卖会，会看到半醉的alpha男性们竞相炫富捐款。虽然很遗憾没能采集当时的尿液样本，但这展示了另一面——当物种以截然不同方式分配地位时，睾酮同样会强化该行为。

But then you get to humans. And humans have lots of different ways of achieving or maintaining status. And all you need to do is go to like some fancy private school's annual auction and you will see all these half drunk alpha males competing to see who can give the most money away as a show of conspicuous property that they have. And in a setting like that, I haven't been able to take urine samples at those times, unfortunately. But that shows the flip side of it.

这引出了惊人预测：假设人们在经济博弈中通过诚信慷慨获取地位，补充睾酮会使他们更慷慨吗？答案是完全肯定的。

If you have a species that hands up status in a very different sort of way, testosterone's going to boost that also. Okay, so that generates a totally nutty prediction. Wow, take people in a circumstance, say playing an economic game where you get status by being trustworthy and being generous in your interactions with the game. If you give people testosterone, does that make them more generous? And that's absolutely the case.

这个发现太酷了。如果社会存在攻击性过剩问题，首要元凶不是睾酮，而是我们在太多情境中赋予攻击行为过高地位。第三点关于睾酮的微妙作用：它能提升人的自信心。

Totally cool finding. And if we have a societal problem with too much aggression, the first culprit to look at is not testosterone. The first to look at is that we hand out so much damn elevated status for aggression in so many circumstances. Third thing about subtlety of testosterone. Okay, like some subtler behavioral effects, you give testosterone to people and they become more confident.

这原本是好事——毕竟人们花钱参加各种提升自尊的课程。但若睾酮增强的是不准确的自信，反而可能使人更易做出错误决策。

They become more self confident. Well, that's good. People pay to take all sorts of nonsensical self help courses that will boost your self esteem. And that's a good thing Unless testosterone makes you more confident, that is inaccurate. And you're more likely to barrel into wrong decisions.

经济博弈实验显示，睾酮通过增强自信使人更不合作。因为谁还需要合作？毕竟我单凭自己就能搞定一切。睾酮会让人变得傲慢冲动，这在某些情境下或许大有裨益。

What's shown in economic gameplay is that testosterone, by making you more confident, makes you less cooperative. Because who needs to cooperate? Because I'm on top of this all on my own. Testosterone makes people cocky and impulsive. And that may be great in one setting.

但若在其他情境中——比如你坚信自家军队三天就能攻陷敌国，于是贸然发动第一次世界大战，结果却大跌眼镜——这种误判很可能源于睾酮事先扭曲了风险评估。

But if in the others, you're absolutely sure your army is going to overrun the other country in three days, so hell, let's start World War I and you get a big surprise out of it, testosterone altering risk assessment beforehand probably played a big role in that kind of miscalculation.

太有意思了。我常把睾酮和多巴胺比作大脑里的表亲，因为多巴胺在塑造外倾性偏好的关键作用。当人服用提升多巴胺的药物或体内多巴胺爆棚时（注意我说的是倾向性，毕竟这是概而论之），他们往往更关注外部目标，超越自身边界的事物。而睾酮似乎也有类似效果。

Super interesting. I always think about testosterone and dopamine being close cousins in the brain because of dopamine's salient role in creating this bias towards exteroception. You know, when somebody takes a drug that increases dopamine or they're chockablock full of dopamine, tend with I wanna highlight tend because this is I'm really generalizing it. But they tend to focus on outward goals, things beyond the boundaries of their skin. And testosterone seems to do a bit of the same.

它让我们进入类似的感知模式：不断追问'我如何与同类相处？如何实现这些目标？'有没有什么方法能更好地概念化睾酮、多巴胺与动机之间的关系？

It tends to put us into a similar mode of perceiving the outside world in ways that we're asking questions like, how do I relate to this other of my species? How do I relate to these goals? Is there anything that we can do to better conceptualize the relationship between testosterone and dopamine and motivation?

这其实与多巴胺认知的革命性修正有关。自古埃及法老时代起，人们就被灌输多巴胺关乎快感与奖赏。但真相是：它关乎奖赏预期，关乎激发获取奖赏所需的动机和目标导向行为。

Well, I think it's got lots to do with sort of this massive revisionism about dopamine. Everyone since the pharaohs, got brought up being taught that dopamine is about pleasure and reward. Turns out it isn't. It's about anticipation of reward. And it's about generating the motivation, the goal directed behavior needed to go get that reward.

不知不觉中，你终其一生都在用飙升的多巴胺激励自己——无论是为死后进天堂还是其他追求。睾酮的作用亦然（这也是为何睾酮替代疗法对老年男性大有裨益，即便非攻击性个体）：提升精力、增强存在感与警觉性、强化动机。睾酮能在数分钟内促进骨骼肌对葡萄糖的吸收。

And before you know it, you're using elevated dopamine your entire life to motivate you to do whatever is gonna get you entry into heaven after life's kind of, it's doing that sort of thing. So it's really about the motivation. And what testosterone does, even in individuals who are not aggressive and why testosterone replacement is often a very helpful thing for aging males, is it increases energy. It increases a sense of awareness, of presence, of alertness, it increases motivation. Testosterone within minutes increases glucose uptake into skeletal muscle.

你会变得更清醒敏锐。这些效应与多巴胺高度相关。实验证明：当大鼠血液中的睾酮浓度达到最优值——即能最大化多巴胺释放的水平时，它们会不断按压杠杆来维持这种美妙状态。你说得完全正确。

You're just more awake and alert and all of that. And that has a lot to do with what dopamine does. And as one might predict then, getting just the right levels of testosterone infused into your bloodstream feels great to lab rats. They will lever press to get infused into the range that optimizes dopamine release. You're absolutely right.

它们确实深度交织。

They're deeply intertwined.

我想问问雌激素。虽然我们较少谈及，但它对动物和人类（无论男女）的大脑都有强大影响。关于雌激素是否存在普遍被误解或需要了解的规律？难道它真的只关乎情感、共情和敏感度？我直觉并非如此。

I want to ask about estrogen. We don't hear about estrogen as often, and yet estrogen has some very powerful effects on both the animal brain and on the human brain of males and females. Are there any general themes of estrogen that are that people should be aware of or that you think that are generally misunderstood? Is it really all about feelings and empathy and making us more sensitive? I I I sense not.

当然不是。如果可以选择，务必让血液充满雌激素。它能增强认知功能、刺激海马体神经发生、提升葡萄糖和氧气输送效率。

No. If you got a choice in the matter between having a lot of estrogen in your bloodstream or not, go for having a lot of estrogen. It enhances cognition. It stimulates neurogenesis in the hippocampus. It increases glucose and oxygen delivery.

它能预防痴呆症。它减少血管的炎症性氧化损伤，这就是为什么它对预防心血管疾病有益。与睾酮相反，睾酮会使所有这些情况恶化。雌激素是预防阿尔茨海默病等疾病的最强保护因素之一，但它需要处于生理水平。关键在于持续维持身体长期以来的自然状态，而非让整个系统停摆后又突然试图重启，就像在地下室底部重新点燃煤炉那样——这两种做法会导致截然不同的结果。

It protects you from dementia. It decreases inflammatory oxidative damage to blood vessels, which is why it's good for protecting from cardiovascular disease. In contrast to testosterone, which is making every one of those things worse. Estrogen is one of the greatest predictors of protection from Alzheimer's disease, all of that, but it needs to be physiological. Just keep going continuing what your body has been doing for a long time versus let the whole thing shut down and suddenly try to fire up the coal stoves at the bottom of the basement kind of thing and get that going, there you get utterly different outcomes.

太有意思了。这让我想到睾酮替代疗法的问题，人们是否应该尽早咨询医生。无论男女，都该在激素不足的阶段及时就医，避免睾酮或雌激素长期缺乏。听起来即使后续进行治疗，也可能造成长期问题。我想简短地回到压力这个话题。

Fascinating. I guess it raises the question about testosterone replacement too, whether or not people should talk to their doctor before too long. Men and women talk to your physicians before too long to avoid these, whatever is happening in these periods where there isn't sufficient testosterone and or estrogen. Sounds like could cause longer term problems even when therapies are introduced. I'd like to briefly return to stress.

你曾描述过一个关于两只老鼠的研究。一只自愿在跑轮上运动，另一只则被强制在跑轮上——每当第一只老鼠跑动时，它就被迫跟着跑。可以说一只是自主运动，另一只像是被强迫上体育课。

You described a study once about two rats. One running on a wheel voluntarily. One who's basically stuck in a running wheel and is forced to run anytime rat number one runs. So in one case, the rat is voluntarily exercising. And in the other case, the the rat is being forced to go to PE class, so to speak.

研究显示这对生理产生了截然不同的影响。你对压力缓解怎么看？作为个人、家庭和社会，我们该如何鼓励人们缓解压力，同时又不会变成第二只老鼠那样——被迫减压反而导致更大压力？

And seeing divergent effects on biology. What do you think about stress mitigation? And what should we do as individuals and as families and as a culture to try and encourage people to mitigate their stress, but in ways that are not going to turn us into rat number two, where we're being forced to mitigate our own stress and therefore becomes more stressful.

你会发现第一只老鼠获得运动的所有益处，而第二只老鼠尽管肌肉活动和运动量完全相同，却承受着严重压力的所有负面影响。这个完美对照实验生动说明：关键在于你的大脑如何解读。我必须事先声明——我擅长告诉人们不管理压力的后果，但实际压力管理建议方面很糟糕，更擅长传达坏消息的部分。

And what you see is rat number one gets all the benefits of exercise. Rat number two gets all the downsides of severe stress with the same exact muscle expenditure and movements going on, perfectly yoked, great example that it's the interpretation of your head. Anything I should say here, I should preface with reasonably good at telling people what's gonna happen if they don't manage their stress. But I'm terrible at actually like managing stress or advising how to manage it. I'm much better with the bad news aspect of it.

但有些人对压力反应强烈，有些人毫无反应，还有人乐在其中。那么心理压力产生的要素是什么？首先正是那个跑步实验揭示的：你是否拥有控制感？控制感能降低压力的负面影响。

But some people have massive stress responses, others not at all in between, enjoy it. Like what are the building blocks of what makes psychological stress stressful? And the first one is exactly what is brought up by that running study. Do you have a sense of control? A sense of control makes stressors less stressful.

与此相关的是可预测性。这是极强的保护因素。其次是发泄渠道——如果被电击的老鼠能啃咬木条，压力就会减轻。

And related to that is a sense of predictability. And that's enormously protective. Others outlet for frustration. You take a rat who's getting shocked and it can gnaw on a bar of wood. A stressor is less stressful.

不幸的是，当老鼠、灵长类或人类承受压力时，向更弱小的对象发泄也能降低压力反应。这种转移性攻击缓解压力的现象，正是世间大量不幸的根源。此外社会支持也很重要，还有将处境解读为好消息而非噩耗的能力。

Unfortunately, if you have a rat or primate or human and they're stressed, the ability to aggressively dump on somebody smaller and weaker also reduces the stress response. And the fact that displacement aggression reduces stress accounts for a huge percentage of Earth's unhappiness. So all of those variables get social support as well. That's a good one. Interpreting circumstances as being good news rather than bad.

听起来很棒对吧？你似乎得到了一个简单配方：尽可能获取控制感、可预测性、发泄渠道和社会支持就能万事大吉。但真照做就会酿成灾难，因为实际情况复杂得多。这就是为什么向流浪汉、晚期癌症患者或难民灌输关于控制感和可预测性的压力管理技巧，效果往往适得其反。

Hooray. So you've got this very simple take home recipe of go out and get as much control and as much predictability and as many outlets and as much social support as possible. And you're gonna do just fine. And you go out and do that, and that's a recipe for total disaster because it's much, much more subtle than that. And that's why stress management techniques about control and predictability wind up being far worse than neutral if you're preaching that to somebody homeless or somebody with terminal cancer or somebody who's a refugee.

告诉一个神经质的中产阶级

Tell a neurotic middle class person that they have the psychological tools to turn hell into heaven. And there's some truth to that. Do the same thing to somebody who's going through a real hell. And that's just privileged heartlessness to do that because that doesn't work. It's not simple.

要把事情做对需要付出大量努力，因为如果你做错了，短期内可能看似很棒。但当结果证明是完全错付的信任时，你会比开始前感觉更糟。

It takes a lot of work to do it right because you do it wrong, and it may temporarily seem like a great thing. But when it turns out to be completely misplaced faith, you're going to be feeling worse than before you started.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。AG1是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮品，还包含益生元和适应原。作为一个从事科研近三十年、同样长时间关注健康与健身的人，我一直在寻找改善心理健康、身体健康和表现的最佳工具。早在2012年，远在我拥有播客之前，我就发现了AG1，并且从那时起每天服用。我发现它能全面提升我的健康、精力和专注力，服用后感觉明显更好。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance. I discovered AG1 back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast and I've been taking it every day since. I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it.

AG1采用最高质量的原料并以正确比例组合，他们不断改进配方而不增加成本。事实上，AG1刚刚推出了最新配方升级。这一新一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的激动人心的新研究。现在它包含了几种经过临床研究的益生菌菌株，被证明可以支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，同时改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。每当有人问我如果只能选择一种补充剂会选什么，我总是回答AG1。

AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost. In fact, AG1 just launched their latest formula upgrade. This next gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome. And it now includes several clinically studied probiotic strains shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating. Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say AG1.

如果你想尝试AG1，可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman。限时优惠，AG1将免费赠送一个月的omega-3鱼油供应以及一瓶维生素D3加K2。正如我之前在播客中强调的，omega-3鱼油和维生素D3K2已被证明有助于改善情绪、大脑健康、心脏健康、健康激素状态等诸多方面。再次提醒，访问drinkag1.com/huberman即可在订阅时获得一个月的免费omega-3鱼油和一瓶维生素D3加K2。今天的节目也由David赞助。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free one month supply of omega-three fish oil along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2. As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-three fish oil and vitamin D3K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health, to healthy hormone status and much more. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free one month supply of omega-three fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription. Today's episode is also brought to us by David.

David生产的蛋白棒与众不同。它含有28克蛋白质，仅150卡路里且零克糖。没错，28克蛋白质，其中75%的卡路里来自蛋白质。这比市面上其他蛋白棒高出50%。DAVID蛋白棒的口感也非常棒。

David makes a protein bar unlike any other. It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein. This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar. DAVID protein bars also tastes amazing.

甚至连质地都很出色。我最喜欢的是巧克力曲奇面团口味，不过我也很喜欢新出的巧克力花生酱口味和巧克力布朗尼口味。基本上所有口味都很喜欢，它们都极其美味。事实上，最大的挑战是决定每天吃哪种口味以及吃多少次。

Even the texture is amazing. My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavor. Basically, like all the flavors a lot. They're all incredibly delicious. In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day.

我限制自己每天最多吃两根，但我非常喜欢它们。有了David，我能在零食的卡路里范围内获取28克蛋白质，这使得我更容易实现每天每磅体重摄入1克蛋白质的目标，同时不会摄入过多卡路里。我通常在下午吃一根David蛋白棒作为零食，出门或旅行时也总会随身携带。它们非常美味，而且含有28克蛋白质的同时仅有150卡路里，真的很有满足感。

I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them. With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day. And it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories. I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling. They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories.

如果你想尝试David，可以访问davidprotein.com/huberman。再次提醒，网址是davidprotein.com/huberman。如今，人们对于通过身体练习来缓解压力很感兴趣，试图摆脱反复思考，并在某种程度上通过运动、呼吸和催眠来控制大脑神经回路。你如何看待更多——暂且这么说——以头部为中心的认知方法来缓解压力，而不是从核心生理层面入手？现在甚至有人通过洗冷水澡来让身体适应压力，自愿洗冷水澡，

If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman. Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman. These days, there's a lot of interest in using physical practices to mitigate stress, trying to get out of the ruminating and to some extent take control of neural circuits in the brain by using exercise and using breathing and hypnosis. What are your thoughts on more, for lack of a better way to put it, more head centered cognitive approaches to stress mitigation versus kind of going at the core physiology? Cold showers now are even a thing to some extent, you know, just to get people stress acclimated, voluntarily taking cold showers,

超觉冥想、正念、运动、祈祷、感恩反思之类的。总的来说，它们在平均水平上是有效的。它们能降低心率和胆固醇水平，带来各种积极效果。但它们能为我们提供什么？Grunning O'Neill研究得出的一个重要警告是：不管有多少朋友对这种压力管理技巧赞不绝口，

Transcendental meditation, mindfulness, exercise, prayer, sort of reflecting on gratitude, all that sort of thing. Collectively, they work on the average. They work in terms of they can lower heart rate and cholesterol levels and have all sorts of good outcomes. But they can provide us. One is exactly the caveat that comes out of the Grunning O'Neill study is it doesn't matter how many of your friends swear by this stress management technique.

如果实践十秒后让你想尖叫崩溃，那这个方法就不适合你。重新定义印刷品和推荐信的意义，但关键是找到适合你的方法。另一个要点是，有效的压力管理技巧不能留到周末才用，也不能只在电话等待听两分钟背景音乐时做。它必须是你几乎每天或隔天停下手中事情，花二、三十分钟专注实践的内容。

If doing it makes you want to scream your head off after ten seconds, that's not the one that's gonna work for you. Redefine print and testimonials, but it's got to be something that works for you. Another one is the stress management type techniques that work, you can't save them for the weekend. You can't save them for when you're stuck on hold on the phone with Muzak for two minutes. It's got to be something where you stop what you're doing and do it virtually daily or every other day and spend twenty, thirty minutes doing it.

无论你在那二十分钟里采用何种压力管理技巧（除了某些难以名状的方式），只要你决定将自身福祉视为重要到必须每天停下一切、优先处理的事项，你就已经完成了80%的减压路程。

Whatever stress management technique you then do in those twenty minutes, short of who knows what, you're already 80% of the way there simply by having decided your well-being is important enough that you're gonna stop every single day and have that as priority.

所以并不存在某种神奇的呼吸法或运动。可以是其中任何一种或某一种。这又回到了那个观点：关键在于你选择哪种方式、为其预留空间，并且最好是你享受的方式——这对生理调节最有效。这让我想到一个令人惊叹的现象：我们对事件的感知方式以及是否自愿参与该事件，竟能对大脑回路、身体回路和细胞生物学产生截然不同的影响。某种程度上，这让我感到不可思议。

So there's no magic breathing tool or exercise. It's any variety of those or one of those. And again, we come back to this idea that it's the one that you select and the one that you make space for, and it's the one that you hopefully enjoy that's going to work best in terms of physiology. That brings me to this question of I find it amazing that how we perceive an event and whether or not we chose to be in that event or not can have such incredibly different effects on circuitry of the brain and circuitry of the body and biology of cells. And in some ways, it boggles my mind.

比如，一个主要由前额叶皮层（当然也包括其他脑区）做出的决定，如何能从根本上改变身体反应的极性？你之前提过A型人格，我们不必详述细节。但有趣的是，内皮细胞效应——我指的是血管通道口径的相反变化——竟取决于当事人是否自愿处于某种情境，是否属于高度动机型人格。能否简要概括这个机制？另外，能否推测大脑如何通过某种开关将体验从可怕转为有益，或反之？

Like, how can a decision made presumably with the prefrontal cortex, although other parts of the brain as well, how can that change essentially the polarity of a response in the body? And I mean, you've talked before about type a personalities, and we don't have to go into all the detail there for sake of time. But it is interesting that the effects of endothelial cells, I mean, literally of the size of of the portals for blood in opposite direction, depending on whether or not somebody wants to be in a situation, is a highly motivated person. Maybe you could just give us the top contour of of that. And then maybe if you would, you could just speculate on how the brain might have this switch to turn one experience from terrible to beneficial or from beneficial to terrible.

这实在令人着迷。

It's really fascinating.

人类能自主调动调节神经元，这种能力在其他动物身上只有极端环境才能触发。所谓最佳压力值——那种不算太剧烈、持续时间不过长、整体环境友善的压力——本质上是一种良性刺激。在这种条件下，我们反而享受那些意外、失控且难以预测的压力源，就像电影里精彩的剧情转折。但个体差异必须被纳入考量：对某些人而言，完美的刺激量可能是周日清晨早起观鸟；而对另一些人，可能是报名去也门当雇佣兵。

You can think autonomic regulatory neurons into action in ways that only other animals can do with extremes of environmental circumstances. When you talk about the optimal amount of stress that counts as stimulation And in general, that stress that's not too severe and doesn't go on for too long in this overall in a benevolent setting. And in those conditions, we love being stressed by something unexpected and out of control and predictability, like a really interesting plot turn in the movie you're watching, that's great. But you get the individual differences that somehow has to accommodate the fact that for some people, the perfect stimulatory amount of stress is like getting up early for an Audubon bird watching walk next Sunday morning. And for somebody else, it's signing up to be like a mercenary in Yemen.

巨大的个体差异使得任何简单处方都黯然失色。

And tremendous individual differences that swamp any simple prescriptions.

是啊。我们每个人都拥有的这个思维器官——前额叶皮层，真是把双刃剑。令我震惊的是，下丘脑和杏仁核这些脑区就像开关：刺激腹内侧下丘脑特定神经元，动物会试图攻击旁边的物体；激活另一些神经元，它却想与同一物体交配。

Yeah. The the prefrontal cortex, this thinking machinery that we all harbor, it's such a double edged sword. And what's remarkable to me is how the areas of the brain like the hypothalamus and the amygdala, they're sort of like switches. I mean, if you stimulate ventromedial hypothalamus, you get the right neurons, an animal will try and kill even an object that's sitting next to it. You tickle some other neurons, it'll try and mate with that same object.

这实在太疯狂了。前额叶皮层或许也有其运作规律，但它能调用的上下文信息似乎是无限的。我们几乎能学会从任何事物中感知威胁——无论是某个群体、科学理论，还是关于地球形状的不同说法。就像你可以往这个系统输入任何数据，只要有足够信息，似乎就能驱动恐惧或爱的反应。

I mean, it's really wild. I think there are probably rules to prefrontal cortex also, but it sounds like the context, plural, from which prefrontal cortex can draw from is probably infinite. So that we could probably learn to perceive threat in anything, whether or not it's another group or whether or not it's science or whether or not it's somebody's version of the shape of the earth versus another. I mean, it's it's like you can plug in anything to this system and give it enough data. And I think it sounds like you could drive a fear response or a love response.

我是否过度解读了？不，事实正是如此。我们能在多大程度上调节前额叶皮层与这些原始系统之间的关系？

Is that overstepping? No. That's absolutely the case. To what extent can we toggle this relationship between the prefrontal cortex and these other more primitive systems?

哦，可调节空间非常大。比如在等级制度中处于底层通常不利于健康，人类和其他哺乳动物都是如此。但我们的特殊之处在于能同时参与多个层级体系：虽然你在公司职位卑微，但可能是今年企业垒球队的明星队长。

Oh, an enormous amount. For example, being low in a hierarchy is generally bad for health and like every mammal out there, including us. But we do something special, which is we can be part of multiple hierarchies at the same time. And while you may be low ranking in one of them, you could be extremely high ranking in another. You have the crappiest job in your corporation, but you're the captain of the softball team this year for the company.

你最好相信这种人会想出各种理由来认定朝九晚五、周一到周五的工作只是愚蠢地为账单奔波。而真正重要的是周末的体面。因此我们可以对此玩各种心理游戏。其中最持久可靠的一种（需要我们疯狂动用前额皮质）是：当某人做了坏事时，你需要归因——答案是他们做了坏事因为他们本质恶劣。

And you better bet that's somebody who's gonna find all sorts of ways to decide that nine to five Monday to Friday is just stupid paying the bills. And what really matters is the prestige on the weekend. And so we can play all sorts of psychological games with that. One of the most consistent, reliable ones that we do and need to use the frontal cortex like crazy is somebody does something rotten and you need to attribute it. And the answer is they did something rotten because they're rotten.

从过去到未来永远都是这种本质归因。你对某人做了坏事，事后如何解释？情境归因——我当时太累了。

Always have been, always will be this constitutional explanation. You do something rotten to somebody. And how do you explain it afterward? A situational one. I was tired.

我压力很大。在这种情境下我误解了。我们最擅长为自己开脱，因为我们了解自己的内心世界。我们拥有擅长编造情境解释的前额皮质，而不是承认‘嘿，也许你就是个自私的烂人需要改变’——而这全仰仗前额皮质。

I was stressed. In this sort of setting, I misunderstood this. We're best at excusing ourselves from bad things because we have access to our inner lives. And we've got prefrontal cortexes that are great at coming up with a situational explanation rather than, hey, maybe you're just like a selfish rotten human and you need to change. And that's all prefrontal cortex.

每次我们不让别人变道插队时都这样，尽管你会无尽咒骂对你做同样事的人。

And we do that every time we don't let somebody merge in the lane in front of us, even though you curse somebody who does the same thing to you endlessly.

我太赞同了。你说我们可以选择参与多重等级体系，在社交媒体如此盛行的当下显得尤为重要。但有趣的是，社交媒体的语境极其宽泛——当你滚动信息流时，接触的是成千上万甚至数百万种语境：这顿美食、那场足球赛、这个人的身材、那个人的才智。

Your I love it. Your statement about the fact that we can select multiple hierarchies to participate in, to me, seems like a particularly important one nowadays with social media being so prevalent. But what's interesting about social media, I found, is that the context is very, very broad. As you scroll through a feed, you are being exposed to thousands, if not millions of context. This meal, that soccer game, this person's body, this person's intellect.

这是个无比广阔的景观，语境完全杂乱无章。而我认为我们进化时所处的语境要局限得多——只与有限数量的人和领域互动。但现在，我们的大脑、前额皮质以及对自身在多层级体系中定位的感知，本质上已无限扩展。

It's a vast, vast landscape. So the context is is completely mishmash. Whereas, I'm assuming we evolved, I think we did evolve, under context that we're much more constrained. We interacted with a limited number of individuals and a limited number of different domains. But now more than ever, our brain, our prefrontal cortex, and our sense of where we exist in these multiple hierarchies has essentially wicked out into infinity.

你认为这如何与我们更原始的系统及生物学的其他方面相互作用？

How do you think this might be interacting with some of these more primitive systems and other aspects of our biology?

我认为这某种程度上揭示了最人性化的本质——我们反复使用完全相同的蓝图：相同的激素、激酶、受体等一切。我们由与其他物种完全相同的材料构成，却以全新方式运用它。通常体现在对时空和创伤事件的抽象能力上。比如你是只低位狒狒，刚捕到兔子准备吃时被高位者抢走，会感到痛苦压力。

Well, I think what you get is in some ways the punchline of what's most human about humans, which is over and over, we use the exact same blueprint, the same hormones, the same kinases, the same receptors, the same everything. We're built out of the exact same stuff as all these other species out there. And then we go and use it in a completely novel way. And usually in terms of being able to abstract stuff over space and time and traumatic days, so, okay, you're a low ranking baboon and you can feel badly because you just like killed a rabbit and you're about to eat and some higher ranking guy boots you off and takes it away from you. And you feel crummy and it's stressful and you're unhappy.

当我们自尊受挫时，身心反应如出一辙。但我们可以通过看电影角色感慨不如他们迷人，看到豪车（甚至未见车主）就因自身社会经济地位感到卑微。你可以因贝索斯上太空而觉得自己活得不充实——没有其他生物会因这种理由自我贬低。

We are doing the exact same things with like our brain and bodies when we're losing a sense of self esteem. But we can do it by watching a movie character on the screen and feeling inadequate compared to how wonderful or attractive they are. We can do it by somebody driving expensive car, and we don't even see their face. And you can feel belittled by your own socioeconomic status. You can watch the lifestyles of the rich and famous or read about what Bezos is up to and for some reason decide your life is less fulfilling because you didn't fly into space for eleven minutes.

因此你能以其他生物无法理解的方式痛苦——只因我们能让‘有意义的社交网络’包含Facebook上读到的新加坡派对（你未被邀请且不认识任何人），但这仍能让你对现状产生不满。

And so you could feel miserable about yourself in ways that no other organism can simply because we can have our meaningful social networks include the party you're reading about on Facebook that you weren't invited to because it's taking place in Singapore and you don't know any of those people. But nonetheless, somehow that could be a means for you to feel less content with who you've turned out to be.

非常感谢你今天参与这次对话，我学到了很多。每次你发言，我都能有所收获。对我来说，今天与你交流真的非常愉快，应该说过去几年作为同事的互动也是如此。再次感谢你，罗伯特，为你所做的一切，以及你在工作中投入的所有辛勤努力和深思熟虑，因为很明显你付出了大量心血，而我们所有人都因此受益。

Very grateful to you for this conversation today. I learned a ton. Every time you speak, I learn. And for me, it's really been a pleasure and a delight to interact with you today and over the the previous years, I should say, as as colleagues. And thank you again, Robert, for everything that you do and all the hard, hard work and thinking that you put into your work because it's clear that you put a lot of hard work and thinking, and we all benefit as a consequence.

谢谢，也感谢邀请我。这次对话非常愉快。

Thanks, and thanks for having me. This was a blast.