必备知识：言语、语言与音乐的神经科学 | 爱里奇·贾维斯博士

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室精华版，这里我们会回顾往期节目，为你提炼出最有效、最实用的科学工具，帮助你改善心理健康、身体健康和表现水平。

Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.

我是安德鲁·休伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学的教授。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

接下来，让我来和贾维斯博士聊聊。

And now for my discussion with Doctor.

贾维斯。

Erich Jarvis.

埃里希，很高兴你来这儿。

Erich, so great to have you here.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是的。

Yeah.

我特别想向你请教关于语言和说话的那些事。

Very interested in learning from you about speech and language.

从研究言语和语言的角度来看，大脑是怎么组织它们的？这两者有什么共同点？

In terms of the study of speech and language and thinking about how the brain organizes speech and language, what are the similarities?

那它们又有什么不同呢？

What are the differences?

我们到底该怎么理解言语和语言这回事？

How should we think about speech and language?

其实根本没那么截然分开。

There really isn't such a sharp distinction.

让我跟你说说现在有些人是怎么想的——他们觉得大脑里有个独立的语言模块，里面装着所有算法和计算机制，用来控制说话时的声音输出，以及听觉通路去感知和解读这些声音，也就是我们说的言语。

Now, let me tell you how some people think of it now, that there's a separate language module in the brain that has all the algorithms and computations that influence the speech pathway on how to produce sound and the auditory pathway on how to perceive and interpret it for speech or for, you know, sound that we call speech.

但我没看到什么有力的证据支持这个独立的语言模块。

I don't think there is any good evidence for a separate language module.

相反，真正存在的是一个言语产生通路，它直接控制着我们的喉部、下巴肌肉，而所有复杂的口语语言算法，其实都内嵌在这个通路里。

Instead, there is a speech production pathway that's controlling our larynx, controlling our jaw muscles that has built within it all the complex algorithms for spoken language.

还有听觉通路，它里面也内置了所有理解言语所需的复杂算法，根本不是靠什么独立的语言模块来实现的。

And there's the auditory pathway that has built within it all the complex algorithms for understanding speech, not separate from a language module.

这个发声通路是人类、鹦鹉和鸣禽特有的，而听觉感知通路在动物界则普遍得多。

And this speech production pathway is specialized to humans and parrots and songbirds, whereas this auditory perception pathway is more ubiquitous amongst the animal kingdom.

这就是为什么狗能听懂‘坐下’、‘过来’、‘把球叼来’这些指令。

And this is why dogs can understand sit, come here boy, get the ball, and so forth.

狗能理解好几百个英语单词。

Dogs can understand several 100 human speech words.

八年级学生能教它们几千个词，但它们一个字也说不出来。

Grade eights, you can teach them for several thousand, but they can't say a word.

我们对那些类似语言、但不算是传统意义上的语言的交流方式，了解多少？

What do we understand about modes of communication that are like language but might not be what would classically be called language?

对，没错。

Yes, right.

在控制口语的大脑区域旁边，还有控制手势的区域。

So next to the brain regions that are controlling spoken language are the brain regions for gesturing with the hands.

这个手势通路也有复杂的机制，我们可以加以利用。

And that hand parallel pathway has also complex algorithms that we can utilize.

有些物种在这些神经回路上更发达，不管是声音还是手势，有些则相对弱一些。

And some species are more advanced in these circuits, whether it's sound or gesturing with hands, and some are less advanced.

人类在口语方面最厉害，但和某些其他物种相比，手势语言的差距其实没那么大。

Humans are the most advanced at spoken language, but not necessarily as big a difference at gestural language compared to some other species.

我们俩现在聊天，还有那些听得到却看不到我们的听众，其实说话时手都在不自觉地比划。

So as you and I are talking here today and people who are listening but can't see us, we're actually gesturing with our hands as we talk without knowing it or doing it unconsciously.

如果我们是在打电话，我这边一只手拿着话筒，另一只手照样在比划，你根本看不见，对吧？

And if we were talking on a telephone, I would have one hand here and I'd be gesturing with the other hand without even you seeing me, right?

那这是为什么呢？

And so why is that?

有人提出过这个观点，我也认同——根据我们看到的现象，控制语言表达和手势的脑区之间存在演化上的关联。

Some have argued, and I would agree with based upon what we've seen, is that there's an evolutionary relationship between the brain pathways that control speech production and gesturing.

我刚才提到的那些脑区，位置是紧挨着的。

And the brain regions I mentioned are directly adjacent to each other.

这又是为什么呢？

And why is that?

我觉得，控制语言的脑区，其实是从控制身体动作的脑区演化过来的。

I think that the brain pathways that control speech evolved out of the brain pathways that control body movement.

明白吧？

All right?

说到意大利语、法语、英语这些语言，每种都自带一套学来的手势，用来辅助表达。

And that's when you talk about Italian, French, English, and so forth, each one of those languages come with a learned set of gestures that you can communicate with.

那这跟其他动物有什么关系呢？

Now, how is that related to other animals?

比如Coco，这只被人类养了快四十年的猩猩，学会了用手势交流，相当于学会了手语。

Well, Coco, a gorilla who was raised with humans for thirty nine years or more learned how to do gesture communication, learned how to sign language, so to speak.

对吧？

Right?

但Coco发不出那些声音。

But Coco couldn't produce those sounds.

她能理解手语——看到别人比划，或者听到别人说话她都懂，可就是没法用嗓子说出来。

Coco could understand them as well by sign by seeing somebody sign or hearing somebody produce speech, but Coco couldn't produce it with her voice.

所以现在的情况是，不少物种——不是所有——大脑里都有控制后天手势的运动通路，能做一些基础的交流，比如用眼神表达，虽然没人类这么高级，但它们就是没有专门处理声音的那条脑通路。

And so what's going on there is that a number of species, not all of them, a number of species have motor pathways in the brain where you can do learned gesturing, rudimentary language if you want it, say with your lens, even if it's not as advanced as humans, but they don't have this extra brain pathway for the sound.

所以它们没法像用手比划那样，用声音来‘比划’。

So they can't gesture with their voice in the way that they gesture with their hands.

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This snapshot gives insights into your heart health, hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.

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For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.

所以我开始补充NATO激酶，这玩意儿能自然降低坏胆固醇，还真管用。

As a result, I decided to start supplementing with NATO kinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.

后来复检时我确认了，这招有效，我的血脂现在已经回到理想范围了。

In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked, my blood lipids are now back where I want them in range.

像Function提供的这种全面体检，对健康真的太重要了。

Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that function offers is so important for health.

我虽然已经做了好多年，但以前一直又复杂又贵。

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我很久以前就一直在想，原始情绪和原始声音，是不是语言的前身？

One thing that I've wondered about for a very long time is whether or not primitive emotions and primitive sounds are the early substrate of language.

闻到好吃的东西，我通常会深吸一口气，然后忍不住‘嗯——’一声。

When I smell something delicious, I typically inhale more and I might say, or something like that.

但要是闻到一股臭味，我通常会扭过头，皱起脸，然后呼气，尽量不把那些分子吸进去。

Whereas if I smell something putrid, I typically turn away, I wince, and I will exhale, trying to not ingest those molecules or inhale those molecules.

我觉得这些反应可能是语言系统里最基础的正反对比。

I could imagine that these are the basic dark and light contrasts of the language system.

从原始的发声到复杂的语言，这就像一个由简入繁的金字塔。

It's kind of primitive to more sophisticated pyramid of sound to language.

这想法是不是太荒谬了？

Is this a crazy idea?

有没有什么证据表明语言真是这么发展起来的？

Do we have any evidence this is the way it works?

不，这想法一点都不荒谬。

No, it's not a crazy idea.

事实上，你正好说中了我早期研究领域里的一个关键区别——那就是发声学习。

And in fact, you hit upon one of the key distinctions in the field of research that I had started out in, which is vocal learning research.

大多数脊椎动物都会发声，但它们大多发出的是天生就会的声音，比如婴儿哭闹，或者狗叫。

Most vertebrate species vocalize, but most of them are producing innate sounds that they're born with, that is babies crying, for example, or dogs barking.

但只有少数物种能学会模仿声音，实现后天习得的发声交流。

And only a few species have learned vocal communication, the ability to imitate sounds.

正是这一点，让口语变得独一无二。

And that is what makes spoken language special.

人们一想到语言的特别之处，其实指的就是这种后天学会的发声能力。

When people think of what's special about language, it's the learned vocalizations.

这才是真正稀有的地方。

That is what's rare.

你刚才提到的那些——呼吸、咕哝之类的，大部分都是由脑干控制的，就是脖子附近甚至更低的位置，像反射一样自动完成的。

So all the things you talked about, the breathing, the grunting, and so forth, a lot of that is handled by the brainstem circuits, you know, right around the level of your neck and below, like a reflex kind of thing.

甚至一些情绪反应，比如由下丘脑引发的行为，也是这样。

So, or even some emotional aspects of your behavior in the hypothalamus and so forth.

但像学说话、学弹钢琴，或者训练狗做把戏这类后天习得的行为，靠的是大脑前部的神经回路。

But for a learned behavior, learning how to speak, learning how to play the piano, teaching a dog to learn how to do tricks is using the forebrain circuits.

实际上，这些物种的大脑前部有很多回路是用来控制身体部位运动的，但唯独不负责发声。

And what has happened is that there's a lot of forebrain circuits that are controlling learning how to move body parts in these species, but not for the vocalizations.

但在人类、鹦鹉和其他一些物种中，不知怎么的，我们的大脑前部区域接管了脑干，现在不仅用它来产生本能的发声行为，还能控制后天习得的发声。

But in humans and in parrots and some other species, somehow we acquired circuits where the forebrain has taken over the brainstem and now using that brainstem not only to produce the innate behaviors or vocal behaviors, but the learned ones as well.

我们有没有大概的概念，现代或复杂的语言是什么时候出现的？

Do we have any sense of when modern or sophisticated language evolved?

在灵长类动物里——也就是我们人类所属的类群——只有我们拥有这种高级的发声模仿能力。

Amongst the primates, which we humans belong to, we are the only ones that have this advanced vocal learning ability.

以前人们以为，只有智人才具备这种能力。

Now when you it was assumed that it was only Homo sapiens.

但现在，通过基因组数据——不仅来自现代人类，还包括已发现的智人、尼安德特人和丹尼索瓦人的化石——我们发现，我们的祖先很可能和这些其他古人类有过杂交。

Then you can go back in time now based upon genomic data, not only of us living humans, but of the fossils that have been found for Homo sapiens, of Neanderthals, of Denisovan individuals, and discover that our ancestor, our human ancestors supposedly hybridized with these other hominid species.

而过去人们一直认为，这些古人类根本不会模仿声音。

And it was assumed that these other hominid species don't learn how to imitate sounds.

我目前不知道有任何一种会模仿声音的物种，能和不会模仿声音的物种生下后代。

I don't know of any species today that's a vocal learner that can have children with a non vocal learning species.

这种情况根本不存在。

I don't see it.

这并不意味着它不存在。

It doesn't mean it didn't exist.

当我们研究这些古人类的基因数据时，你会发现那些参与学习性发声的基因，它们的序列和我们人类控制语言的基因一模一样。

And when we look at the genetic data from these ancestral hominids that, you know, where we can look at genes that are involved in learned vocal communication, they have the same sequence as we humans do for genes that function in speech circuits.

所以我觉得尼安德特人是有口语的。

So I think Neanderthals had spoken language.

我不会说他们的语言和我们一样先进，我不确定，但我相信这种能力至少已经存在了五十万到一百万年。

I'm not going to say it's as advanced as what it is in humans, I don't know, but I think it's been there for at least between five hundred thousand to a million years.

也许我们可以再多聊聊人类和其他动物在语言和说话相关脑回路方面的共同点。

Maybe we could talk a little bit more about the overlap between brain circuits that control language and speech in humans and other animals.

我是在神经科学的年代成长起来的，那时候鸟类鸣叫、鸟类学习导师歌声的能力，一直是神经科学里一个非常重要的研究领域。

I was weaned in the neuroscience era where birdsong and the ability of birds to learn their tutor song was and still is a prominent field, subfield of neuroscience.

还有所谓的‘关键期’——也就是语言在生命早期比后期更容易习得的阶段。

And this notion of a critical period, a time in which language is learned more easily than it is later in life.

那时候，不同脑区的命名也跟现在很不一样。

And the names of the different brain areas were quite different.

翻开教科书，人类的语言中枢我们总听到韦尼克区和布洛卡区，可看鸟类的时候，我记得那时候叫HBC。

One opens the textbooks, we hear Wernicke's and Broca's for the humans, and you look at the birds of it, I remember, you know- HBC.

对，就是那个粗壮的纹状体区域。

Yeah, robust arch striatum area

那是X区，

That's X,

没错，没错。

right, yes.

鸣禽和人类幼儿控制语言和说话的大脑区域，到底有多像，又有多不一样呢？

How similar or different are the brain areas controlling speech and language in say a songbird and a young human child?

其实从上世纪50年代，甚至更早，彼得·莫勒这些人开始搞神经行为学，就是用自然的方式研究动物行为的神经机制，对吧？

Yeah, so going back to the 1950s and even a little earlier, and Peter Moeller and others who got involved in neuroethology, the study of neurobiology of behavior in a natural way, right?

他们发现，像鸣禽、鹦鹉这些鸟，后来我们还知道蜂鸟，总共就这三类，从全球四十多种鸟类里头，能像人一样模仿声音。

You know, they start to find that behaviorally, there are these species of birds like songbirds and parrots, and now we also know hummingbirds, just three of them out of the 40 something bird groups out there on the planet, orders, that they can imitate sounds like we do.

所以这一点挺相似的。

And so that was a similarity.

换句话说，这种行为上，它们比黑猩猩跟人类更像，也比鸡跟它们自己更像，对吧？

In other words, they had this kind of behavior that's more similar to us than chimpanzees have with us or than chickens have with them, right?

它们跟我们的亲缘关系更近。

They're closer relatives.

后来他们还发现了一个关键点：如果孩子从小被遗弃，没人管，没接触过人类社会，等到了青春期，成年后就很难再学会语言了——这事儿挺让人难过的。

And then they discovered even more similarities, these critical periods, that if you remove a child, you know, this unfortunately happens where a child is feral and is not raised with human and goes through their puberty phase of growth, it becomes hard for them to learn a language as an adult.

有个特别重要的时间段，这时候学语言效果最好。

There's this critical period where you learn best.

就算后来进了正常社会，学起来还是特别吃力。

And even later on when you're in regular society, it's hard to learn.

鸟类也是这样。

Well, the birds undergo the same thing.

而且后来发现，如果人聋了，不接受治疗，说话能力就会慢慢退化。

And then it was discovered that if they become deaf, we humans become deaf, our speech starts to deteriorate without any kind of therapy.

但要是非人灵长类动物，或者鸡聋了，它们的叫声基本不会变，顶多有点微小变化。

If a nonhuman primate or, you know, or let's say a chicken becomes deaf, their vocalizations don't deteriorate, very little at least.

这种情况在会学叫的鸟身上也会发生。

Well, this happens in the vocal learning birds.

于是，这些行为上的相似性背后，还有一整套配套的发现——我的前博士导师费尔南多·纳达包，开始研究你提到的X区，也就是纹状体的强核。

So there were all these behavioral parallels that came along with a package, and then people looked into the brain, Fernando Nadabaugh, my former PhD advisor, and began to discover the area X you talked about, the robust nucleus of the archipelium.

而那些不会模仿的物种，大脑里根本找不到这些通路。

And these brain pathways were not found in the species who couldn't imitate.

所以这里明显存在一种平行关系。

So there was a parallel here.

多年后，我深入研究这些脑回路，发现它们的功能和人类的脑回路高度相似，只是名字不一样，比如布洛卡区、喉运动皮层这些。

And then jumping many years later, you know, I started to dig down into these brain circuits to discover that these brain circuits have parallel functions with the brain circuits for humans, even though they're by a different name like Broca's and laryngomotor cortex.

最近我们更发现，不仅神经通路和连接方式相似，就连这些脑区里特异性表达的基因，也和人类、鸣禽、鹦鹉高度一致，和大脑其他部位完全不同。

And most recently we discovered not only the actual circuitry and the connectivity are similar, but the underlying genes that are expressed in these brain regions in a specialized way different from the rest of the brain are also similar between humans and songbirds and parrots.

从基因层面一路往下，现在我们还发现，这些基因的突变也相似——不总是完全一样，但很接近，这说明，尽管人类和鸟类在三亿年前就分道扬镳，却在复杂行为上惊人地趋同演化。

So all the way down to the genes, and now we're finding the specific mutations are also similar, not always identical, but similar, which indicates remarkable convergence for a so called complex behavior in species separated by 300,000,000 years from the common ancestor.

不仅如此，我们还发现，那些导致人类语言障碍的基因突变，比如FOXP2，如果把这些突变或类似的缺陷引入会学叫的鸟身上，它们也会出现类似的语言问题。

And not only that, we are discovering that mutations in these genes that cause speech deficits in humans, like in FOXP2, If you put those same mutations or similar type of deficits in these vocal learning birds, you get similar deficits.

所以，这种行为的趋同，背后是相似的基因缺陷在起作用。

So convergence of the behavior is associated with similar genetic disorders of the behavior.

蜂鸟会唱歌吗？还是说它们只是

Do hummingbirds sing or do they

蜂鸟用翅膀飞行，用鸣管唱歌。

Hummingbirds with their wings and sing with their syrinx.

是协调进行的吗？

In a coordinated way?

确实是协调的。

In a coordinated way.

有些蜂鸟，道格·阿什韦勒做过研究，它们会一边拍翅膀，一边发出‘啪啪’的声响，而且这声音和它们的歌声完全同步。

There's some species of hummingbirds that actually will, Doug Ashweller showed this, that will flap their wings and create a slapping sound with their wings that's in unison with their song.

你根本听不出来，但那听起来就像歌里的一个音节，其实是翅膀和声带同时发出的。

And you would not know it, but it sounds like a particular syllable in their songs, even though it's their wings and their voice at the

同一时间。

same time.

蜂鸟是随着歌声拍翅膀。

Hummingbirds are clapping to their song.

对，它们是把翅膀啪地一合，跟歌声同步，就像我敲桌子那样——只不过它们用翅膀发出的声音，听起来简直跟嗓音一模一样。

Clapping, they're snapping their wings together in unison with a song to make it like if I'm going, you know, and I banged on the table, except they make it almost sound like their voice with their wings.

蜂鸟特别神奇的地方，其实不光是它们，所有能学习发声的动物都这样——不知为啥，它们总是一下子进化出一堆复杂的本事。

What's amazing about hummingbirds, and I, we're going to say vocal learning species in general, is that for whatever reason, they seem to evolve multiple complex traits.

你想想，语言，尤其是口语的演化，总是伴随着一整套特化的适应能力。

You know, this idea that the evolving language, spoken language in particular, comes along with a set of specializations.

我早年学神经科学的时候，记得是彼得·马勒的研究说，幼鸟会学导师的歌声，学得特别好，而且还能学别的鸟的歌。

When I was coming up in neuroscience, I learned that, I think it was the work of Peter Marler, that young birds learn, songbirds learn their tutor song and learn it quite well, but that they could learn the song of another tutor.

换句话说，对听众来说，我这儿比个引号啊——它们能学一种跟自己物种原版不一样的‘语言’，也就是别的鸟的鸣叫，但永远学得没自己天生的歌那么地道。

In other words, they could learn a different, for the listeners, I'm doing air quotes here, a different language, a different bird song, different than their own species song, never as well as they could learn their own natural genetically linked song.

对。

Yes.

‘天生的’意思就是，就像我从小在别的文化里长大，能学会那里的语言，但怎么也赶不上我从小说英语那么溜。

Genetically linked meaning that they would be like me being raised in a different culture and that I would learn the other language, but not as well as I would have learned English.

就是这个意思。

This is the idea.

对。

Yes.

真的吗？

Is that true?

确实如此，没错。

That is true, yes.

我小时候也是这么听说的，还跟彼得·莫勒本人聊过，他去世前我们还谈过。

And that's what I learned growing up as well talked to Peter Moeller himself about before he passed.

他管这叫天生的学习倾向，懂吧？

He used to call it the innate predisposition to learn, all right?

这在语言学界差不多就相当于普遍语法。

So, which would be kind of the equivalent in the linguistic community of universal grammar.

除了后天文化习得，基因也在影响着我们的声音交流。

There is something genetically influencing our vocal communication on top of what we learn culturally.

所以说，不管是人类的语言，还是这类鸟类的鸣唱，先天基因调控和后天通过文化习得的调控之间，存在着一种平衡。

And so there's this balance between the genetic control of speech or a song in these birds and the learned cultural control.

没错，后来我们在洛克菲勒大学真的做过这个实验：把一只斑胸草雀和金丝雀养在一起，最后这只草雀鸣唱出来的调子，居然是介于两者之间的混合版本。

And so yes, if you were to take, you know, I mean, in this case, we actually tried this at Rockefeller later on, take a zebra finch and raise it with a canary, it would sing a song that was sort of like a hybrid in between.

我们还给这种混合的鸣唱起了个名字，叫金丝雀草雀，挺有意思的吧？

We call it a caninch, right?

反过来把金丝雀和草雀一起养也会出现类似情况，这是因为两类鸟的发声肌肉结构，还有大脑里的神经回路本来就不一样。

And vice versa for the canary, because there's something different about their vocal musculature or the circuitry in the brain.

就拿斑胸草雀来说，哪怕是跟它亲缘关系很近的物种也符合这个规律：要是你把一只幼年期的斑胸草雀放进笼子，在它隔壁笼子放一只成年的同类雄性，你猜怎么着？

And with a zebra finch, even with a closely related species, if you would take a zebra finch a young animal, and in one cage next to it, place its own species, adult male, right?

再在另一边的笼子放一只文鸟，这只幼雀肯定优先跟着自己同类的邻居学鸣唱。

And in the other cage place a Bengalese finch next to it, it would preferably learn the song from its own species neighbor.

可要是把它的同类邻居挪走，它也能把文鸟的鸣唱学得有模有样。

But if you remove its neighbor, it would learn that Bengalese finch very well.

特别神奇吧。

Fantastic.

所以这跟跟自己物种之间的社会联结也有关系。

So there's, it has something to do with also the social bonding with your own species.

这让我想到一件事，我之前也听过类似的说法，虽然没找到什么权威的学术论文支持——就是说，当多种文化和语言在一个地区交汇时，来自不同母语家庭的孩子们会自己创造出一种新语言。我记得好像在夏威夷这类岛屿文化里，这种语言叫皮钦语，是父母在家说的各种语言的混合体，孩子们自己也用它交流。至于为什么叫‘皮钦’，我也不太清楚，但据说这种语言里藏着所有语言都有的某些基本元素。

That raises a question that I, based on something I also heard, but I don't have any scientific peer reviewed publication to point to, which is this idea of pigeon, not the bird, but this idea of when multiple cultures and languages converge in a given geographic area, that the children of all the different native languages will come up with their own language, I think this was in island culture, maybe in Hawaii, called Pidgin, which is sort of a hybrid of the various languages that their parents speak at home and that they themselves speak, and that somehow Pidgin, again, not the bird, but a language called Pidgin for reasons I don't know, harbors certain basic elements of all language.

这说法对吗？

Is that true?

这说法不对吗？

Is that not true?

这里发生的事，其实是文化演化惊人地跟基因演化同步。

What is going on here is cultural evolution remarkably tracks genetic evolution.

比如你把两个长期隔离、至少已经演化了数百代的不同群体的人放在一起——一个说中文，一个说英文——孩子同时从父母那儿学这两种语言，那他确实能自然地把音素和词汇混在一起，就像拼图一样。成年人可做不到，因为他们没在关键期同时接触这两种语言。

So if you bring people from two separate populations together that have been in their separate populations evolutionarily at least for hundreds of generations, So someone speaking Chinese, someone speaking English, and that child then is learning from both of them, yes, that child's going to be able to pick up and merge phonemes and words together in a way that an adult wouldn't because why they're experiencing both languages at the same time during their critical period, years in a way that, adults would not be able to experience.

所以最后出来的就是个混合体，大家共有的部分就成了基础。

And so you get a hybrid and the lowest common denominator is going to be what they share.

因此，我猜，每种语言里保留下来的那些共同音素，会最常被用到。

And so the phonemes that they've retained in each of their, languages is what's going to be, I imagine used the most.

你们很多人可能知道，我吃AG1已经快十五年了。

As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly fifteen years now.

我早在2012年就发现了它，那时候连播客都还没开，但从那以后我每天都吃。

I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.

我一开始吃它，现在还继续吃，是因为据我所知，AG1是市面上质量最高、成分最全面的基础营养补充剂。

The reason I started taking it and the reason I still take it is because AG1 is to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

它把维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原全融进一勺里，冲着好喝，方便又省事。

It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink and it tastes great.

它能帮你们维护肠道健康、增强免疫力，还能提升整体精力。

It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy.

说白了，就是帮你补上日常饮食里可能缺的那些营养。

And it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition.

当然啦，每个人都该尽量吃营养丰富的天然食物。

Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods.

我每天也都是这么吃的，但总有人问我：如果你只能选一种补充剂，你会选哪个？

I certainly do that every day, but I'm often asked if you could take just one supplement, what would that supplement be?

我的答案永远是AG1，因为它对我的身体健康、心理健康和表现提升真的太关键了。

And my answer is always AG1 because it has just been oh, so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance.

这是我亲身经历的，而且每天使用AG1的其他人也经常跟我这么说。

I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily.

如果你想试试AG1，可以去drinkag1.com/huberman，有专属优惠。

If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

限时福利：订阅AG1，免费送你六份旅行装，外加一瓶维生素D3K2。

For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription.

再强调一遍，去drinkag1.com/huberman，订阅就送六份旅行装和一瓶维生素D3K2。

Again, that's drinkag1 with the numeral 1.com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription.

我们在鸣禽和人类大脑里都发现了类似的神经回路，虽然具体连接方式未必一样，但基本的结构轮廓很相似，而且控制语言和说话这些现象的基因，在这两种差异巨大的物种里也高度一致。

So we've got brain circuits in songbirds and in humans that in many ways are similar, perhaps not in their exact wiring, but in their basic contour of wiring, and genes that are expressed in both sets of neural circuits in very distinct species that are responsible for these phenomenon we're calling speech and language.

我的意思是，这些基因到底在起什么作用？

I mean, what are these genes doing?

人和鸟的发声通路有个关键区别：有些连接跟周围神经回路完全不同，比如人类大脑里控制发声的皮层区域，会直接连到控制喉部的运动神经元，鸟的话就是连到鸣管。

One of the things that differ in the speech pathways of us and these somn pathways of birds is some of the connections are fundamentally different than the surrounding circuits, like a direct cortical connection from the areas that control vocalizations in the cortex to the motor neurons that control the larynx in humans or the syrinx in birds.

所以我们预测，既然这些连接有差异，那应该能找到一些专门调控神经连接、且在不同物种间存在差异的基因。

And so we actually made a prediction that since some of these connections differ, we're going to find genes that control neuroconnectivity and that specialize in that function that differ.

结果还真让我们找到了。

And that's exactly what we found.

就是那些控制轴突导向、形成特定连接的基因。

Genes that control what we call axon guidance and form instrument connections.

有意思的是，结果跟我们原先想的正好相反。

And what was interesting, it was sort of in the opposite direction that we expected.

也就是说，有好几个调控神经连接的基因，在语言回路里反而是被关闭的。

That is some of these genes, actually a number of them that control neuroconnectivity were turned off in the speech circuit.

明白吗？

All right?

一开始我们也不懂，直到后来才意识到，这些基因的作用其实是阻止连接形成——它们是排斥性的分子。

And it didn't make sense to us at first until we started to realize the function of these genes are to repel connections from forming, so repulsive molecules.

所以一旦把这些基因关掉，那些本来不会形成的连接，反而就能长出来了。

And so when you turn them off, they allow certain connections to form that normally would have not formed.

所以关掉它，反而让语言能力增强了，对吧？

So by turning it off, you got a gain of function for speech, right?

让我们没想到的还有些基因，跟钙调节、神经保护有关，比如副球蛋白或者热休克蛋白。

Other genes that surprised us were genes involved in calcium buffering, neuroprotection, like a parvalvumin or a heat shock protein.

当你大脑发热的时候，这些蛋白就会被激活。

So when your brain gets hot, these proteins turn on.

我们很久都想不通，这到底是为什么？

And we couldn't figure out for a long time, why is that the case?

有一天我突然灵光一现——对了，喉部肌肉是人体内放电频率最高的肌肉，你知道吧？

And then the idea popped to me one day and said, ah, when I heard the larynx is the fastest firing muscles in the body, all right?

我们要发出声音、调控音调，得让这些肌肉每秒收缩三到五次，比走路跑步快多了。

In order to vibrate sound and modulate sound in the way we do, you have to control, you have to move those muscles, you know, three to four to five times faster than just regular walking or running.

当你把电极插进控制鸟类（还有人类）习得性发声的大脑区域时，那些神经元的放电频率确实更高，就是为了精准控制这些肌肉。

And so when you stick electrodes in the brain areas that control learned vocalizations in these birds, and I think in humans as well, those neurons are firing at a higher rate to control these muscles.

那这会带来什么后果呢？

And so what is that going to do?

如果你不增强那些清除多余负荷的分子，这些神经元就会积累大量毒性。

You're going to have lots of toxicity in those neurons unless you upregulate molecules that take out the extra load that is needed to control the larynx.

最后，第三类基因专门负责这种高速回路，跟神经可塑性有关。

And then finally, a third set of genes that are specialized in these speed circuit are involved in neuroplasticity.

神经可塑性就是让大脑回路更灵活，学东西更快。

Neuroplasticity meaning allowing the brain circuits to be more flexible so you can learn better.

那这是为什么呢？

And why is that?

我觉得，学说话这种能力，比学走路、学狗那些翻跟头跳圈圈要复杂多了。

I think learning how to produce speech is a more complex learning ability than say learning how to walk or learning how to do tricks and jumps and so forth that dogs do.

从语言的可塑性来看，不管是学一门还是多门语言，所谓的关键期到底发生了什么？

In terms of plasticity of speech and the ability to learn multiple languages, but even just one language, what's going on in the so called critical period?

第二个问题，如果小时候已经会好几种语言了，长大后再学新语言会不会更容易？

And then the second question is, if one can already speak more than one language as a consequence of childhood learning, is it easier to acquire new languages later on?

其实，整个大脑都在经历关键期的发展，不只是语言通路。

Actually, the entire brain is undergoing a critical period development, not just the speech pathways.

所以学弹钢琴也更容易些。

And so it's easier to learn how to play a piano.

小孩子学骑自行车，或者干别的事儿，都比长大后容易得多。

It's easier to learn how to ride a bike for the first time and so forth as a young child than it is later in life.

大脑能容纳的信息量是有限的。

The brain can only hold so much information.

如果你正在飞速学习、吸收新知识，就得把旧记忆像电脑文件一样删掉。

And if you are undergoing rapid learning to learn, to acquire new knowledge, you also have to put memory or information in the trash, like in a computer.

你的内存就那么点儿空间。

You only have so many gigabases of memory.

而且从生存角度讲，你也不能老是忘事儿。

Plus also for survival, you don't want to keep forgetting things.

我觉得大脑的设计就是：趁小时候抓紧把学到的东西固化下来，之后一辈子就靠这些了。

And so the brain is designed, I believe, to undergo this critical period and solidify the circuits with what you learned as a child and you use that for the rest of your life.

那你刚才问的，小时候学过好几种语言，长大后学新语言会不会更容易？

And now the question you asked about if you learn more languages as a child, is it easier to learn as an adult?

这在学术界其实是个挺常见的发现。

And that's a common finding out there in the literature.

虽然有人持不同意见，但支持这个观点的人认为，人一生下来就能发出一整套先天的语音，但因为不是所有语言都用得上所有音，所以我们逐渐缩小范围，只保留那些用来组成单词的音，而且这些音到了成年基本就固定了。

There are some that argue against it, but for those that support it, the idea there is you are born with a set of innate sounds you can produce of phonemes and you narrow that down, because not all languages use all of them, and so you narrow down the ones you use to string the phonemes together in the words that you learn, and you maintain those phonemes as an adult.

这时候你又碰上一种新语言，它用的音或者音的组合你从来没听过，那就跟从零开始学差不多。

And here comes along another language that's using those phonemes or in different combinations you're not used to, and therefore it's like starting from first principles.

但如果你已经会好几种语言，里面都包含这些音，那学第三种、第四种语言的时候就会容易多了。

But if you already have them in multiple languages that you're using, then it makes it easier to use them in another third or fourth language.

所以不是说你的大脑保持了更强的可塑性，而是你大脑里已经存了更多种发音方式，这才让你学新语言更快。

So it's not like your brain has maintained greater plasticity, is your brain has maintained greater ability to produce different sounds that then allows you to learn another language faster.

那像那种充满情感和深意的表达方式呢？它们好像脱离了常规的语言结构。

What about modes of speech and language that seem to have a depth of emotionality and meaning, but for which it departs from structured language?

比如音乐人，像鲍勃·迪伦的一些歌，我听得懂每个词，也觉得里面有种情绪，至少我被触动了，能猜到他当时在想什么。

I think of musicians, like there's some Bob Dylan songs that to me, I understand the individual words, I like to think there's an emotion associated with it, at least I experienced some sort of emotion and I have a guess about what he was experiencing.

但要是光看歌词，不听音乐，也不听他唱，或者别人用他那种方式唱，那根本就体会不到啥意思。

But if I were to just read it linearly without the music and without him singing it or somebody singing it like him, it wouldn't hold any meaning.

所以换句话说，那些看似

So in other words, words that seem

有含义，却又不靠语言本身，而是直接触动情感的词。

to have meaning, but not associated with language, but somehow tap into an emotionality.

没错。

Absolutely.

我们管这个叫语义沟通——传递意义的沟通，还有效果沟通——更多带着情感色彩的沟通。

So we call this difference semantic communication, communication with meaning, and effective communication, communication that has more of an emotional feeling content to it.

我觉得，根据脑成像研究，还有鸟类的研究来看，当鸟类用声音传递语义信息时——虽然不常发生——和它们为了吸引伴侣、保卫领地而唱歌时，用的是同一套脑回路。

I believe, you know, based upon imaging work and work we see in birds, when birds are communicating semantic information in their sounds, which is not too often, but it happens versus effective communication, sing because I'm trying to attract the mate, my courtship song, or defend my territory, it's the same brain circuits.

其实都是同一套说话或唱歌的神经通路，只是用法不同。

It's the same speech like or song circuits are being used in different ways.

还有几点我想提醒大家注意：当我说语义沟通和效果沟通用的是相似脑区时，大脑左右侧也很关键。

There's several other points here I think it's important for those listening out there to hear is that when I say also this effective and semantic communication being used by similar brain circuits, it also matters the side of the brain.

不管是鸟类还是人类，学习来的声音交流，都有左右脑优势之分。

In birds and in humans, there's left right dominance for learned communication, learned sound communication.

我们人类左边大脑更主导语言，但右边大脑在处理唱歌或音乐时更占优势，跟处理语言不太一样。

So the left in us humans is more dominant for speech, but the right has a more balance for singing or processing musical sounds as opposed to processing speech.

其实两边大脑都会用在这两种功能上。

Both get used for both reasons.

所以当人们说‘右脑是艺术脑，左脑是逻辑脑’，指的就是这个。

And so when people say your right brain is your artistic brain and your left brain is your thinking brain, this is what they're referring to.

这又是另一个区别。

And so that's another distinction.

第二点值得注意的是，所有能学习发声的物种，都会用它们学来的声音来做这种情感型、有感染力的交流；但只有少数像人类、某些鹦鹉和海豚，才会用它来做我们说的这种语义型交流——也就是说话。

The second thing that's useful to know is that all vocal learning species use their learned sounds for this emotional effective kind of communication, but only a few of them like humans and some parrots and dolphins use it for the semantic kind of communication we're calling speech.

这也让不少人推测，人类语言的演化，最早其实是从唱歌开始的，是为了吸引伴侣、激发情感，就像詹妮弗·洛佩兹、瑞奇·马丁那种歌。

And that has led a number of people to hypothesize that the evolution of spoken language of speech evolved first for singing, for this more like emotional kind of made attraction, like the Jennifer Lopez, the Ricky Martin kind of songs and so forth.

后来才慢慢发展出像我们现在这样抽象的交流方式。

And then later on, it became used for abstract communication like we're doing now.

我想先休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商Eight Sleep。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor Eight Sleep.

Eight Sleep 做的智能床垫套，能制冷、加热，还能监测睡眠。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

要想睡个好觉，最关键的就是让卧室的温度刚刚好。

One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.

因为你要想睡着、睡深，体温得自然下降一到三度。

And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.

而想早上醒过来精神饱满，体温又得升上来一到三度。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

Eight Sleep 会整晚自动调节你的床温，完全贴合你的个人需求。

Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.

我用 Eight Sleep 的床垫套快五年了，睡眠质量直接翻了个倍。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.

他们最新款叫 Pod Five。

The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod five.

我现在睡的就是这个，真的爱到不行。

This is what I'm now sleeping on and I absolutely love it.

它有太多厉害的功能了。

It has so many incredible features.

比如，Pod Five 有个叫自动模式的功能，是个AI系统，能学习你的睡眠模式，然后根据不同睡眠阶段自动调节床的温度。

For instance, the Pod five has a feature called autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.

如果你打鼾，它还会帮你抬高头部，其他地方也会做调整，让你睡得更好。

It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.

如果你想试试Eight Sleep，去 eightsleep.com/huberman，现在买新的Pod Five能省最多350美元。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod five.

Eight Sleep全球很多国家都发货，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。

Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and The UAE.

再说一遍，eightsleep.com/huberman，省最多350美元。对了，我想聊聊面部表情，很多都是下意识的。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 I'd love to chat a moment about facial expression, many of which are subconscious.

我们都懂，当一个人说的话和他脸上的表情对不上时，这种不一致会立刻引起我们的注意。

We are all familiar with the fact that when what somebody says doesn't match some specific feature of their facial expression, that it can call, that mismatch can cue our attention.

是的。

Yeah.

那控制面部表情的运动回路，是怎么跟控制语言、说话，甚至身体和手部动作的大脑回路关联起来的呢？

So how does motor circuitry that controls facial expression map onto the brain circuits that control language, speech, and even bodily and hand movements.

对。

Yeah.

你这个问题问得真好，我们俩都知道一些同事，比如洛克菲勒大学的温里希·弗劳尔德，他专门研究面部表情及其神经生物学机制。

And you ask a great question because we both know some colleagues like Winrich Frywald at Rockefeller University who study facial expression and the neurobiology behind it.

非人灵长类动物的面部表情也像我们人类一样，种类非常丰富。

Nonhuman primates have a lot of diversity in their facial expression like we humans do.

目前我们知道，控制面部肌肉的脑区，跟那些不会模仿发声的物种——比如某些非人灵长类——的皮层区域有很强的连接。

And what we know about the neurobiology of brain regions controlling those muscles of the face is that these nonhuman primates and some other species that don't learn how to imitate vocalizations, they have strong connections from the cortical regions to the motor neurons that control facial expressions.

虽然这些非人灵长类的表情更丰富，但我们的祖先其实早就具备了多样化的沟通方式，不管是有意的还是无意识的，都通过面部表情来表达。

And even though it's more diverse in these nonhuman primates, there was already a preexisting diversity of communication, whether it's intentional or unconscious through facial expression in our ancestors.

而到了人类，我们又在这些面部表情的基础上，加上了声音。

And on top of that, we humans now add the voice along with those facial expressions.

这就像是发邮件一样。

So it's like an email too.

你发邮件，别人回你一句，你可能觉得他是在生气，也可能觉得他很温和，意思就模糊了。

You're emailing and someone says something by email, someone can interpret that angrily or gently, and it becomes ambiguous.

而面部表情就能消除这种模糊感。

The facial expressions get rid of that ambiguity.

太好了，你正好提到这点，我接下来想问的正是关于书面语言的问题。

I'm so glad you brought that out because my next question was and is about written language.

从想法变成语言，再变成文字，这个过程是怎样的？

What is the process of going from a thought to language to written word?

这里面到底发生了什么？

And what's going on there?

我们对背后的神经回路了解多少？

What do we know about the neural circuitry?

我觉得要解释你这个问题，不如从阅读的角度说起。

What I think is going on is, to explain what you're asking, is about that I'm going to take it from the perspective of reading something.

你读纸上的一段话，信息通过眼睛传到大脑，最后到达后脑的视觉皮层区域。

You read something on a paper, the signal from the paper goes through your eyes, it goes to the back of your brain to your visual cortical regions eventually.

这个视觉信号接着会传到你大脑前部布洛卡区的语言运动通路，你脑子里会默默‘说’出你读到的内容，但肌肉一点都没动。

That visual signal then goes to your speech pathway in the motor cortex in front here in Broca's area, and you silently speak what you read in your brain without moving your muscles.

有时候，如果你在喉部肌肉上贴上肌电图电极——连鸟都能做这个实验——你就会发现，即使没发出声音，阅读或默读时那些肌肉也有活动。

And sometimes actually, if you put electrodes, EMG electrodes on your laryngeal muscles, even on birds, you can do this, you'll see activity there while reading or trying to speak silently, even though no sound's coming out.

所以，你大脑里的语言通路其实正在‘说’你读到的东西。

And so your speech pathway is now speaking what you're reading.

最后，这个信号还会传到听觉通路，让你在脑子里‘听见’自己在说什么。

Now to finish it off, that signal is sent to your auditory pathway so you can hear what you're speaking in your own head.

这太神奇了。

That's incredible.

这就是为什么这事这么复杂。

And this is why it's complicated.

哦，对了，你还得写字，对吧？

Oh, and then you got to write, right?

好吧。

Okay.

接下来是第四个。

Here comes the fourth one.

现在，靠近语言通路的手部区域得把听到的声音，或者说话时相关的运动信号，转化成纸上的文字信号。

Now the hand areas next to your speech pathway has got to take that auditory signal or even the adjacent motor signals for speaking and translate it into a visual signal on paper.

所以写字时，你至少动用了四个大脑回路，包括语言产生和语言感知通路。

So you're using at least four brain circuits, which includes the speech production and the speech perception pathways to write.

口吃是个特别有意思的情况。

Stutter is a particularly interesting case.

目前神经生物学对口吃是怎么理解的？针对口吃的治疗又有哪些新进展？

What is the current neurobiological understanding of stutter and what's being developed in terms of treatments for stutter?

是的。

Yeah.

我们其实偶然在鸣禽身上发现了口吃现象，已经发了好几篇论文，想搞清楚它的神经机制。

So we actually accidentally came across stuttering in songbirds, and we've published several papers on this to try to figure out the neurobiological basis.

我们最早的研究聚焦在基底节——特别是纹状体，这个区域负责协调动作、学习如何做动作。当这个区域在鸟类的语言通路里受损后，随着大脑恢复，它们就开始结巴了。

The first study we had was a brain area called the basal ganglia, the striatum part of the basal ganglia involved in coordinating movements, learning how to make movements, when it was damaged in the speech like pathway in these birds, what we found is that they started to stutter as the brain region recovered.

但跟人类不一样，它们三到四个月后就自己恢复了。

And unlike humans, they actually recovered after three or four months.

这到底是为什么呢？

And why is that the case?

因为鸟的大脑会像人类或哺乳动物那样产生新的神经元。

Because bird brains undergoes new neurogenesis in a way that human or mammal brains don't.

新长出来的神经元刚加入回路时，活动还不太对劲，这才导致了这些鸟的口吃。

And it was the new neurons that were coming in into the circuit, but not quite, you know, with the right proper activity, was resulting in this stuttering in these birds.

等修复完成后，虽然没完全复原成原来的歌声，但整体恢复得好多了。

And after it was repaired, not exactly the old song came back after the repair, but still it recovered a lot better.

现在我们知道，人类如果在幼年时基底节受损，或者功能紊乱，也会引发口吃，这叫神经发生性口吃。

And it's now known, they call this Neurogenetics stuttering in humans with damage to the basal ganglia or some type of disruption to the basal ganglia at a young age also causes stuttering in humans.

就连天生口吃的人，往往也是基底节出了问题，而不是别的脑区。

And even those who are born with stuttering, it's often the basal ganglia that's disrupted than some other brain circuit.

我们觉得，问题出在基底节负责说话的那部分。

And we think the speech part of the basal ganglia.

成年人如果从小就有口吃，能治好吗？

Can adults who maintain a stutter from childhood repair that stutter?

通过行为疗法，其实是可以克服口吃的。

There are ways to overcome the stuttering through, you know, behavioral therapy.

我觉得现在所有的方法都跟感觉运动整合有关——有意识地控制你听到的声音和你输出的语言，这样能有效减轻口吃。

And I think all of the tools out there have something to do with sensory motor integration, Controlling what you hear with what you output in a thoughtful, controlled way helps reduce the stuttering.

发短信其实是语言一个特别有意思的演变。

Texting is a very, very interesting evolution of language.

我有时候在想，我们是不是因为不用再写完整句子、不用认真组织语言，反而越来越不擅长说话了？

I wonder sometimes whether or not we are getting less proficient at speech because we are not required to write and think in complete sentences.

你觉得语言现在正在发生什么变化？

What do you think is happening to language?

我们是变得更会说了，还是更不会说了？

Are we getting better at speaking, worse at speaking?

你觉得发短信、发推文、用缩写、加标签这些短平快的沟通方式，到底在怎么改变我们的大脑？

And what do you think the role of things like texting and tweeting and shorthand communication, hashtagging, what's that doing to the way that our brains work?

其实发短信让人们的沟通变得快多了。

Texting actually has allowed for more rapid communication amongst people.

大脑这东西，用进废退嘛。

It's more like a use it or lose it kind of a thing with the brain.

你越频繁使用某个脑区或神经通路，它就越发达。

The more you use a particular brain region or circuit, the more enhanced.

就像肌肉一样。

It's like a muscle.

练得越多，就越健康、越强壮，占的空间也越大，但同时你可能会失去别的东西。

The more you exercise it, the more healthier it is, the bigger it becomes, and the more space it takes and the more you lose something else.

所以我觉得发短信并没有削弱人们的口语能力或思维能力，只是把它转化了，用一种全新的方式在用——虽然短消息没法像书面语那样表达那么丰富的细节，但现在人人都能对着手机一发就是好几个小时。

So I think texting is not decreasing the speech prowess or the intellectual prowess of speech, it's converting it and using it a lot in a different way, in a way that may not be as rich in regular writing because you can only communicate so much nuance in short term writing, but whatever is being done, you got people texting hours and hours and hours on the phone.

所以啊，你拇指对应的那块脑区，迟早会变得特别发达。

So whatever, your thumb circuit is going to get pretty big actually.

对于想提升口语和语言理解能力的听众，你有什么推荐的工具吗？

For those listening who are interested in getting better at speaking and understanding languages, are there any tools that you recommend?

孩子该不该读难一点的书和简单一点的书？

Should kids learn how to read hard books and simple books?

你建议咋样？

What do you recommend?

成年人也该这么学吗？

Should adults learn how to do that?

大家都想让脑子保持灵活，但同时，我想人们也想说得溜、听得懂。

Everyone wants to know how to keep their brain working better, so to speak, but also I think people want to be able to speak well and people want to be able to understand well.

是啊，我自己发现，当初我从跳舞转行做科学的时候，本来以为总有一天会停掉跳舞，但其实我没停，因为跳舞让我特别有满足感。

Yeah, what I've discovered personally, right, is that, so when I switched from pursuing a career in science from a career in dance, I thought one day I would stop dancing, but I haven't because I find it fulfilling for me.

像疫情期间，我就确实放慢了跳舞的节奏。

And there've been periods of time like during the pandemic where I slowed down on dancing and so forth.

一旦你停下来，就会发现，身体某些地方的肌肉确实会松一点，体重也可能悄悄长上来。

And when you do that, you realize, okay, there are parts of your body where your muscle tone decreases a little bit and somewhat, or you could start to gain weight.

我反正不太容易胖，我觉得这跟跳舞有关系，不知道对听众来说有没有参考价值。

I somehow don't gain weight that easily, and I think it's related to my dance, if that's meaningful to your audience.

但我发现，在科学领域，我们总喜欢把运动、行为和认知分开来看。

But what I found is in science, we like to think of a separation between movement and action and cognition.

你是不是也觉得，感知是认知，而表达就是运动？

And there is a separation for you between perception and production, cognition being perception, production being movement, right?

但要是语言通路和运动通路挨得这么近，那我发现，跳舞其实是在帮我思考。

But if the speech pathways is next to the movement pathways, what I discover is by dancing, it is helping me think.

它让我脑子保持清醒。

It is helping keeping my brain fresh.

这不只是在动肌肉那么简单。

It's not just moving my muscles.

我是在用大脑的神经回路，去控制整个身体的运作。

I'm moving or using the circuitry in my brain to control a whole big body.

要完成这种事，得动用大量的脑组织。

You need a lot of brain tissue to do that.

所以我觉得，要想老了脑子还灵光，你得动起来，而且得坚持——不管是跳舞、走路、跑步，还得练说话、演讲，或者唱歌。因为唱歌是在调控控制面部肌肉的脑回路，这也会让你的认知系统一直保持在线。

And so I argue if you want to stay cognitively intact into your old age, you better be moving and you better be doing it consistently, whether it's dancing, walking, running, and also practicing speech, oratory speech, and so forth, or singing is controlling the brain circuits that are moving your facial musculature, and it's going to keep your cognitive circuits also in tune.

这一点我完全是基于自己的亲身经历才深信不疑的。

And I'm convinced of that from my own personal experience.

今天这场对话真的太棒了，让我学到了很多。

This has been an incredible conversation and opportunity for me to learn.

我相信代表了很多人的心声，真的特别感谢你今天抽空来和我们交流。

Know I speak for a tremendous number of people, and I just really want to say thank you for joining us today.

你平时肯定特别忙。

You are incredibly busy.

从你讲的这些科研内容和你的知识广度就能看出来，你手头的事情多得不得了，真的特别忙。

Clear from your description of your science your knowledge base that you are involved in a huge number of things, very busy.

所以特别感谢你抽出时间跟我们分享这些。

So thank you for taking the time to speak to all of us.

也谢谢你一直在做的这些了不起的工作。

Thank you for the work that you're doing.

谢谢你们邀请我来，让我有机会把科学界正在发生的事儿传达给更多人。

Thank you for inviting me here to get the word out to the community of what's going on in the science world.