核心要点：健康、减脂与增肌的饮食科学 | 莱恩·诺顿博士

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室精华版，这里我们会回顾往期节目，为你提炼出最有效、最实用的科学工具，帮助你改善心理健康、身体健康和表现能力。

Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.

我是安德鲁·休伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学的教授。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

接下来，让我开始与博士的对话。

And now for my discussion with Doctor.

莱恩·诺顿博士。

Layne Norton.

博士。

Doctor.

诺顿博士，非常感谢你今天来到这里。

Norton, thank you so much for being here.

这事儿拖了很久，但作为一位同样拥有博士学位的科研人员，我感觉和你特别投缘。

This is a long time coming, and I have to say, as a fellow PhD scientist, I feel a great kinship with you.

我知道你在健身和营养领域有着非常丰富的经验。

I know you have tremendous experience in fitness and nutrition in a number of areas.

我想先从一个看似简单但实际上相当复杂的话题开始，那就是能量平衡和能量消耗。

I'd like to start with something that's rather basic and yet can be pretty complex, and that's this issue of energy balance and energy utilization.

当我们吃下任何食物时，会发生什么？这些食物又是如何转化为能量的？这能帮助我们更好地理解减重、维持体重、增重以及体成分的变化。

What happens when we eat food of any kind, and how is that actually converted into energy as a way of framing up the discussion around weight loss, weight maintenance, weight gain, and body composition?

这是个很好的问题。

It's a great question.

就像你说的，人们总爱说‘摄入热量等于消耗热量’，还觉得这种说法太肤浅了。

And like you said, this is one of those things where, you know, people use the term calories in, calories out, and they say, well, that's way too simplistic.

但如果你仔细看‘摄入热量’和‘消耗热量’到底包含哪些内容，其实非常复杂。

And I'm like, if you look at what actually makes up calories in, calories out, it's actually very complicated.

卡路里本质上只是一个能量单位，特指热量。

So a calorie just refers to a unit of energy, of heat specifically.

你真正讨论的是食物中宏量营养素化学键里所蕴含的潜在化学能。

Really what you're talking about is the potential chemical energy that is in the bonds of the macronutrients of food.

对吧？

Right?

通过消化、吸收和代谢这些营养素，我们的身体就能产生能量。

And by digesting, assimilating, and metabolizing those nutrients, we are able to create energy.

这个过程的最终产物主要是ATP，也就是三磷酸腺苷，它相当于身体的能量货币。

The end product of that mostly is ATP, adenosine triphosphate, which is your body's energy currency.

所以，很多代谢过程本质上就是在制造ATP。

So a lot of metabolism is simply creating ATP.

蛋白质有点特殊，它会被分解成氨基酸，这些氨基酸既能用来合成肌肉蛋白或其他组织的蛋白质，也能通过糖异生转化成葡萄糖，还有一部分氨基酸是生酮型的。

Protein's a little bit different because protein gets converted to amino acids, which can be used for muscle protein synthesis or protein synthesis in other tissues, but it also can be converted through gluconeogenesis to glucose, and there also are some ketogenic amino acids as well.

然后是脂肪酸，它们通过β氧化产生能量，简单说就是每次切掉两个碳原子，生成乙酰辅酶A，而乙酰辅酶A又能进入三羧酸循环，产生还原当量，最终推动ATP的合成。

Then you have fatty acids, which are able to create energy through what's called beta oxidation, where essentially you're taking these fatty acids and you're lopping them off two carbons at a time to produce acetyl CoA, which again can go into the Krebs cycle, produce those hydrodions that can then power the production of ATP.

这就是从细胞层面来看，能量产生的基本机制。

So that's kind of like at the cellular level of how this stuff works.

但如果我们退一步看，这跟减重或增重到底有什么关系呢？

But stepping back and taking it back out, like, what does that have to do with weight loss or weight gain?

对吧？

Right?

当你想到能量摄入和能量消耗之间的平衡时，听起来很简单。

When you think about the balance of energy in versus energy out, sounds very simple.

但咱们来看看，到底什么构成了能量摄入和能量消耗。

But let's look at what actually makes up energy in versus energy out.

首先，你得明白，摄入的能量其实比大多数人想的更难追踪。

First of all, you've gotta realize that the energy inside of the equation is more difficult to track than people think.

第一，食品标签，我们总觉得它们权威可靠，但实际上误差可能高达20%。

So one, food labels, which we like to think as being, you know, like, from upon high, can have up to a 20% error in them.

真的吗？

Really?

是啊。

Oh, yeah.

第二个问题是，食物里有总能量，但真正能被身体利用的是可代谢能量。

The second aspect is there's what's called your energy, but then there's also metabolizable energy.

对吧？

Right?

比如，如果你吃的食物含有大量不溶性纤维，这种纤维通常很难被消化。

So if you have, food stuff with, say, a lot of insoluble fiber, typically, insoluble fiber, is not really digestible.

所以你可能摄入了不少碳水化合物，但如果身体没法从中提取能量，那也没用——这通常是因为植物性食物中的碳水化合物，甚至部分蛋白质，都被包裹在植物结构里，消化酶根本碰不到。

And so you could have, you know, quite a bit of carbohydrate, but if you can't extract the energy from it, and typically this is because insoluble fiber from, like, plant material, the carbohydrate or and even some of the protein is bound up in the, plant structure, which makes it inaccessible to digestive enzymes.

这也正是它能增加粪便体积的原因。

And so this is what, like, adds bulk to your stool and whatnot.

但同样，这也降低了食物中可被利用的能量。

But, again, reduces the metabolizable energy in there.

还有一些研究表明，根据每个人肠道菌群的不同，有些人其实比其他人更能从纤维中提取能量。

And there's some evidence that based on people's individual gut microbiome, that some people may actually be better at extracting energy out of fiber compared to other people.

光是这一点，就已经很复杂了。

So just starting off right there.

明白了。

Okay.

食物中的能量摄入，其实有相当大的变数。

There's there's quite a bit of play in the energy inside of things.

现在有人会说，对吧，这就是为什么你没必要纠结于计算卡路里，毕竟食品标签的数值可能偏差高达百分之二十。

Now one of the things people will say is, well, see, that's why you shouldn't worry about tracking calories because, you know, if the food labels can be 20% off.

我会说，嗯，我明白你的意思。

And what I'll say is, okay.

我懂你为什么这么想。

I understand where you're coming from.

但通常来说，如果偏差存在，它往往是稳定不变的。

But, typically, if it's off, it's gonna be consistently off.

只要你坚持用同样的方式记录，慢慢就能摸清自己实际摄入了多少。

And if you're consistent with how you track it, eventually, you'll be able to know kind of what you're taking in.

接下来我们来看看能量消耗这一侧，那可要复杂多了。

So now let's look at the energy outside of the equation, which is actually way more complicated.

对吧？

Right?

你的能量消耗其实可以分成好几块。

And so your energy out is a few different buckets.

第一个也是最大的一部分是基础代谢率，也就是你的RMR。

The first one and the biggest one is your resting metabolic rate, so your RMR.

对大多数人来说，这部分占全天总能量消耗的50%到70%。

That for most people is anywhere from 50 to 70% of your total daily energy expenditure.

久坐不动的人比例会偏高，也就是说基础代谢占得更多；而活动量大的人比例会低一些，不是因为他们的代谢率低，而是因为他们通过运动消耗了更多热量。

Sedentary people will be on the higher end of that, so it'll be a bigger proportion, whereas people who are more active, it'll be a little bit lower, not because their metabolic rate is lower, but because they're expending a greater percentage of their calories from physical activity.

然后是食物的热效应，这部分占全天总能量消耗的比例比较小。

Then you have something called the thermic effect of food, which is a relatively small percentage of your total daily energy expenditure.

大概在5%到10%之间。

It's about five to 10%.

这个数值很难精确测量，研究人员在做相关分析时，通常就直接做个估算。

Very difficult to measure and usually what researchers do when they're kind of looking at this stuff is they just kinda make an assumption about it.

他们会用一个固定值，指的是身体消化吸收食物所消耗的能量。

They use a constant, and that refers to the amount of energy it takes to extract the energy out of food.

你不可能吃了东西，它就直接变成细胞里的能量，然后你立马就能干活了。

You can't just eat food and then, you know, it just appears in your cells and you start doing stuff.

食物必须经过系统性的分解，转化成能真正产生能量的形式。

It has to be systematically broken down and put into forms that can actually produce energy.

很多人会说，不是所有的热量都是一样的。

A lot of times people will say something like, well, not all calories are created equal.

这种说法不对，因为热量只是一个计量单位。

That's not true because calories just a unit of measurement.

对吧？

Right?

这就像是说，钟表上的每一秒都不一样。

That would be like saying not all seconds on a clock are created equal.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

They are.

不同来源的热量可能对能量消耗和食欲产生不同的影响。

All sources of calories may have differential effects on energy expenditure and appetite.

比如说脂肪，它的食物热效应大约是0%到3%。

So if we look at something like fat, for example, the TEF of fat is about zero to 3%.

也就是说，如果你摄入100卡路里的脂肪，实际净吸收大约是97到100卡路里。

Meaning, if you eat a 100 calories from fat, your net will be about 97 to a 100.

所以分解脂肪的过程实际上会消耗一部分热量，因为你需要利用这些能量来断裂化学键，生成ATP。

So the process of breaking down that fat essentially subtracts some of the the calories away because you used it in creating energy by breaking those chemical bonds to create ATP.

没错。

Correct.

明白了。

Okay.

没错。

Correct.

脂肪其实是转化为能量最轻松的一种营养素。

Fat is actually the easiest thing to convert into energy.

然后是碳水化合物，它的食物热效应大约在5%到10%之间。

Then you have carbohydrate, which has a TEF of, like, five to 10%.

所以你吃下100卡路里的碳水化合物。

So you eat a 100 calories from carbohydrate.

当然，膳食纤维的含量对这个影响很大。

And, obviously, like, the fiber content makes a big difference on this.

但你吃下100卡路里，实际吸收的大概在90到95卡路里之间。

But as you eat a 100 calories, you'll net 90 to 95.

蛋白质的热效应大约是20%到30%。

Protein is about a 20 to 30% TEF.

所以如果你吃下100卡路里的蛋白质，实际净吸收只有70到80卡路里。

So if you eat a 100 calories from protein, you're only netting 70 to 80.

这时候你可能还是会想，人们常说，蛋白质不能吃太多。

Now you're still net you know, people say, well, you can't eat too much protein.

有人会问，蛋白质会不会转化成脂肪？

Well, you know, people will ask, well, can protein be stored as fat?

蛋白质里的碳元素，不太可能最终变成脂肪组织。

The carbons from protein, it's unlikely it's gonna wind up in adipose tissue.

但如果你摄入大量蛋白质，作为总热量的一部分，这些蛋白质最终必须被氧化，反而能为其他物质转化为脂肪腾出空间。

But if you're eating a lot of protein, overall, as part of a lot of calories, it has to be oxidized, and it can provide a calorie cushion for other things to be stored in fat.

蛋白质本身确实会带来正向的热量净收益，但比碳水化合物或脂肪要少，而且更容易让人有饱腹感。

But protein itself does provide, you know, a net positive for calories, but less so than carbohydrate or fat and tends to be more satiating.

所以，当人们讨论，所有的热量是不是都一样时——

So, again, when people talk about, you know, are all the calories created equal?

是的。

Yes.

但不同来源的热量，对能量消耗和食欲的影响确实不同。

But all sources of calories may have differential effects on energy expenditure and appetite.

这就是食物热效应和基础代谢率这两个部分。

So that's the TEF bucket and the BMR bucket.

接下来是身体活动，它主要分为两部分。

Then we go to physical activity, and physical activity is essentially two parts.

其中一部分是锻炼，也就是你有意识进行的运动。

There's exercise, which is kind of your purposeful movements.

比如你出去散个步，或者去锻炼一下，反正就是动一动。

Like, you go out for a walk, you do a training session, I mean, whatever.

任何有意识的活动都算。

Any purposeful activity.

还有一种叫非运动性热量消耗，简称NEAT。

And then you have what's called NEAT, which is non exercise activity thermogenesis.

比如说我讲话的时候，手比比划划的，

So for example, if I when I'm talking, if I'm waving around my hands,

你要是抖腿、扭来扭去，这些都属于NEAT。

if I'm tapping my feet, if I'm whatever, that's NEAT.

NEAT消耗的热量其实挺可观的。

The calorie burn from NEAT is actually pretty significant.

不是说每天多烧个一百、两百大卡。

We're not talking about 100 calories or 200 calories per day.

在某些情况下，每天能多消耗几百，甚至接近一千大卡。

We're talking about in some cases, of thousand Excuse me, hundreds to maybe even close to 1,000 calories per day.

NEAT特别有意思的地方在于，它在基础代谢、食物热效应和NEAT这三者当中，是最容易调整的。

And what's very interesting about NEAT is that seems to be the most modifiable of, you know, BMR, TEF, and NEAT.

NEAT的可塑性明显要高得多。

NEAT seems to be far more modifiable.

很多人称体重特别随意，我会跟人说，如果你真想减重，那得有意识地去做——当然，每个人情况不一样。

The next thing is a lot of people weigh very sporadically, and I'll tell people, if you're gonna make an intentional weight loss a goal and, again, this can be different for different people.

不过一般来说，我建议大家每天早上起床、上完厕所后称体重，天天坚持，然后算出一周的平均值，再跟下一周的平均值做对比。

But, typically, I tell people, weigh in first thing in the morning or I have to go to the bathroom, do it every day, and take the average of that for the week, and then compare that to the next week's average.

我自己经常称体重，我的体重波动能有两三公斤，但看起来好像没什么变化。

As somebody who weighs themselves pretty pretty regularly, I mean, my weight will fluctuate, you know, five, six pounds and not seemingly changing much.

你懂的吧？

You know?

这些短期的波动其实都是暂时的。

And that's just you know, those short term changes are fluid.

所以如果你只是偶尔称一次体重，明明在控制热量摄入，却偏偏赶上哪天身体存了水，一看体重没降，就觉得这方法没用。

So if you're somebody who just randomly is weighing in and you're eating in a calorie deficit and you just weigh in one day where you've just, whatever reason, holding some more fluid, then you, oh, see this isn't working.

但实际上，你的平均体重可能正在下降。

When in reality, your average might be dropping.

体重的波动往往是让人放弃减重的主要原因。

Weight fluctuations are actually identified as a major reason why people get discouraged from weight loss.

这会让人失去动力，对的。

It kinda stops the buy in Mhmm.

当体重突然上升的时候，就是这样。

You know, when they have a fluctuation up.

所以这也是其中一个原因，说得很好。

So that's one of the reasons Great point.

低碳饮食在初期效果明显，是因为人会很快减掉很多水分，从而获得成就感。

One one of the reasons early on that low carb diets tend to work really well is because people lose a lot of water weight really quickly, and they get that buy in.

哦，看来真有效果。

So, oh, this is working.

人们想着要开始节食，要减掉多少体重，却从不考虑之后该怎么办。

People think about, I'm going to do a diet, and I'm gonna lose this weight, and they do not give any thought to what happens afterwards.

你想一下，如果你有某种慢性病，比如糖尿病。

Think about if you have some kind of chronic disease or a diabetic.

对吧？

Right?

你不可能打一次胰岛素就完事了。

You you can't just take insulin once, and that's it.

对吧？

Right?

你得持续不断地注射。

You gotta take it continuously.

不然身体就会出问题。

Otherwise, you're gonna have problems.

你不可能一边拖着旧习惯和行为，一边重塑全新的自己。

You can't create a new version of yourself while dragging your old habits and behaviors behind you.

所以我常对人说，有人总说我在吃生酮饮食，或者在吃这个饮食、那个饮食。

So what I'll tell people is because people say, well, I'm doing a carnivore diet, or I'm doing this diet or that diet.

我会说，这没问题。

And I'll say, that's fine.

你能想象自己一辈子都这样下去吗？

Do you see yourself doing that for the rest of your life?

如果答案是否定的，那你可能得重新考虑自己的方法了。

And if the answer is no, you probably need to rethink what your approach is gonna be.

大家好。

Hey, everyone.

好了。

All right.

我的书终于准备好了，即将发布。

My book is finally ready for release.

《协议：人体操作手册》三个月后上市。

Protocols, an operating manual for the human body is coming out in three months.

这是我第一本书，已经花了好多年时间打磨。

It's my first book and I've been working on it for many years now.

这本书凝聚了我多年的研究与实践经验，甚至早在动笔之前就已经积累了这么久。

And it's really a reflection of decades of research and experience that came even prior to starting the book.

我写这本书的初衷，是希望它能成为一本实用的指南，帮助大家应对心理健康、身体健康和表现提升方面的各种问题和目标。

My goal for this book is that it serves as an easy to use manual for dealing with any number of different pain points or performance goals that you might have in terms of mental health, physical health, and performance.

书中涵盖了睡眠、营养、运动、专注学习与神经可塑性、压力管理等领域的科学依据和最有效的干预方法。

It covers the science and most effective protocols for sleep, nutrition, exercise, focused learning and neuroplasticity, stress management, and much more.

我非常期待能把这本书分享给大家。

I'm super excited to share it with all of you.

正式发售日期是9月15日。

The launch date is September 15.

想了解更多或提前预订，请访问 protocolsbook.com。

You can learn more about it or pre order by going to protocolsbook.com.

在亚马逊官网也能买到。

It's also available on amazon.com.

终于等到这一天了，Protocols这本书正式准备好了。

And I'm super excited that Protocols is finally ready for release.

接下来我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商Carbon。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors Carbon.

Carbon是一款由营养专家莱恩·诺顿博士开发的饮食指导应用。

Carbon is a diet coaching app built by nutrition expert, Doctor.

莱恩·诺顿。

Layne Norton.

我用Carbon已经三年多了，说实话，作为一名在健身和营养领域钻研了三十多年的人，这是我见过最有效的营养指导和体重管理工具之一。

I've used Carbon for more than three years now, and I have to say having been interested in fitness and in my nutrition for more than three decades, it's among the most powerful tools for nutrition coaching and effective weight management that I've ever encountered.

尤其是如果你的目标和我一样，想在减脂的同时保持或增加肌肉。

Especially if your goal is like mine, which is to maintain or build muscle while also losing fat.

过去几年里，我一直在向朋友、家人，还有我的休伯曼实验室团队推荐Carbon应用。

I've been raving about the Carbon App to friends and to family and to members of my Huberman Lab team over the last few years.

所有和我一起用过它的人，都觉得它特别有用。

And everyone who's joining me and using it has found it to be tremendously useful.

现在市面上有很多专注健身和营养的App，但Carbon的特别之处在于，它不会给你一个千篇一律的计划。

Now there are lot of apps out there that are focused on fitness and nutrition, but what makes Carbon different is that it doesn't just hand you a one size fits all plan.

它会随着时间推移逐渐了解你的新陈代谢，并根据你的实际效果调整计划。

It actually learns your metabolism over time and it adapts your program based on your results.

如果你想要更聪明、更个性化的饮食方式，我真心推荐Carbon这款应用。

So if you're looking to take a smarter, more personalized approach to your nutrition, I can't recommend the Carbon app enough.

想试试Carbon，可以访问 joincarbon.com/huberman。

To try Carbon, you can go to joincarbon.com/huberman.

虽然Carbon通常不提供试用或优惠，但他们特别为所有Huberman播客听众提供七天免费试用。

While Carbon does not typically offer trials or promotions, they've agreed to give a free seven day trial to all Huberman podcast listeners.

再次提醒，访问 joincarbon.com/huberman 即可领取七天免费试用。

Again, that's joincarbon.com/huberman to get a seven day free trial.

你能简单说说，像蛋白质这样的宏量营养素，是怎么影响饱腹感的吗？比如，你只想减掉几磅体重的人。

Could you briefly talk about how macronutrients, including protein, impact satiety from the standpoint of somebody who, for instance, would like to, quote unquote, lose a few pounds, right?

如果你还希望在特定部位增加一点肌肉——现在挺流行这种‘定向增肌’的说法——那你该多关注蛋白质的摄入？动物性蛋白的吸收率真的更高吗？

Probably would be happy to gain a little bit of lean body mass provided it was in a particular location on their body, that seems to be a thing now, directed hypertrophy, if you will, and how much they should focus on protein as a core component of creating this diet, and are animal sources of protein indeed more bioavailable?

这个词对想增肌的人重要，对只想减脂的人也同样关键。

A tricky word for sake of muscle building, but also for sake of somebody who just would like to lose body fat.

他们不想掉肌肉，只想减掉几磅体重。

They don't wanna lose muscle, and they'd like to bring their weight down a few pounds.

在三大营养素里，蛋白质绝对是影响最大的那个因素。

Of the macronutrients, protein is definitely the biggest lever that you can pull.

因为其实不需要吃很多蛋白质，就能获得显著的增肌效果。

Because even if you know, it doesn't take a ton of protein to get a lot of the muscle building benefits.

我觉得，每公斤体重摄入1.6克蛋白质左右，收益就基本到头了。

I mean, I think the benefits really start to plateau out around 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight.

有些研究显示，可能提高到每公斤2.4甚至2.8克，还能再有一点点额外好处。

There's some evidence that maybe even up to, like, 2.4 or 2.8 per kilo may give, like, a little bit more benefit.

这就像一条渐近线，你吃得越多，收益确实还在增加，但增加得微乎其微，几乎可以忽略不计。

I think it probably looks something like an asymptote in terms of a curve where as you put more into the system, you always get a little bit more, but it just gets to the point where it's so infinitesimally small benefit that it's, for all intensive purposes, no benefit.

就算摄入量非常高，似乎也没有什么明显的负面作用。

There doesn't seem to be really downsides to it even, up to very high levels of protein.

何塞·安东尼奥做过一项为期一年的随机对照试验。

Jose Antonio did a study that was a year long randomized control trial.

而且，这只是一年的研究，但他们检测了各种不同的生物标志物。

And, again, it's just one year, but they were looking at all sorts of different biomarkers.

基本上，即使蛋白质摄入量达到每公斤四克，他们也没发现什么负面健康影响，除了人吃得太饱，结果摄入的总热量反而减少了。

And, basically, even up to four grams per kilogram of protein, they couldn't really find any negative health outcomes from it, other than people were just so satiated, they ended up eating less calories.

蛋白质是个关键因素，首先，它的食物热效应更高，所以每天哪怕只是多消耗一点点热量，也还是有好处的——虽然食物热效应在总能量消耗中占比本来就不大。

So protein is a big lever because, one, it has a higher thermic effect of food, so you're getting a little bit more calorie burn per day even though it's not a ton because TEF is a pretty small percentage of your overall energy expenditure, but still a benefit.

它还能影响你的瘦体重。

You're getting the effects on lean body mass.

如果你在减脂，它能帮你保留瘦体重。

If you're in a diet, it's gonna help preserve lean body mass.

如果你保持体重稳定，它能帮你增加或维持瘦体重。

If you're at maintenance, it's gonna help build or preserve lean body mass.

如果你在增重，它同样能帮你增加或维持瘦体重。

And if you're in a surplus, it's gonna help build or preserve lean body mass.

如果我每天每公斤体重吃两克蛋白质，而且一天只吃两到三餐，那每餐的蛋白摄入量肯定远超过去常说的30克上限——那种说法认为一餐最多只能吸收30克蛋白质。

If I'm going to eat, let's say, two grams per kilogram of body weight protein, and I'm not eating multiple meals, maybe I'm eating two or three meals per day, I'm certainly going to be eating more than the 30 gram threshold that was thrown around for a long time that we can only assimilate 30 grams of protein per meal.

那我是不是根本不用在意这个？

Should I just not worry about that?

其中一部分会用于食物的热效应。

Some of it is going to go towards the thermic effect of food.

还有一部分可能会通过糖异生转化成葡萄糖，真是奇怪。

Some of that might be converted into glucose, of all things, through gluconeogenesis.

所以我需要在意这30克的界限吗？

So should I worry about this 30 gram cutoff?

因为我觉得，既要满足每公斤体重1.6克蛋白质的标准，又要兼顾餐数、运动、工作、生活和睡眠，很快就会遇到瓶颈。

Because I think balancing the 1.6 gram per kilogram body weight threshold with number of meals, with the need to exercise and work and live my life and sleep, etcetera, pretty soon you run into bottlenecks

是的。

Yeah.

你根本没法同时做到所有事，或者得花太多时间去追求完美。

Where you just can't do it all or you're spending so much time trying to on it all.

想把所有事情都做到最优。

Optimize all the things at the same time.

你会身心俱疲的。

You'd lose your mind and your body.

大多数美国人一天中大约65%到70%的蛋白质都集中在晚餐吃。

Most Americans get about 65 to 70% of their protein at dinner.

对吧？

Right?

早餐的蛋白质通常很少。

Breakfast tends to be pretty minimal protein.

所以回答你的问题，我觉得进食的时间和频率确实有点影响。

So to answer your question, I do think that timing and frequency matters a little.

倒不是频率本身，而是分布更关键，但比起确保总蛋白摄入量，这点影响小多了。

Not so much frequency, but distribution more so, but it's a it's a much smaller lever than just getting enough total protein in.

至于动物性蛋白和植物性蛋白，我以前觉得一个人不可能靠纯素食长出那么多肌肉。

And then as far as, like, animal versus plant, I used to be in the camp of there's no way somebody can build as much muscle on a plant based diet.

但现在我觉得，其实是可以的。

And now I think I've come back to, you can.

这只需要多花点心思规划一下。

It just requires a little bit more planning.

我不敢说一定，但如果没有单独的蛋白质来源，真的很难实现。

And I don't wanna say always, but it's very difficult to do without an isolated source of protein.

除非你补充植物性纯蛋白，否则很难在不超卡路里的情况下摄入足够蛋白，特别是对于那些卡路里摄入有限的人，想靠天然植物食物获取足量蛋白就更难了。

So unless you're gonna supplement with an isolated plant source of protein, it's very difficult to get enough without going over on total calories because you can figure that especially, like, take somebody who may be calorically restricted, trying to get enough protein from whole intact plant sources.

所以你面临好几重困难。

So you've got a few different things working against you.

第一，你吃的蛋白质来源通常也含有碳水化合物或脂肪。

One, the sources of protein you're consuming also have carbohydrate and or fat.

第二，这种蛋白质的生物利用率比较低。

Two, it's a less bioavailable form of protein.

第三，从质量上看，它通常亮氨酸含量少，支链氨基酸和必需氨基酸也较少。

And three, it's a lower quality of protein in terms of it has typically less leucine, less branched amino acids, and less essential amino acids.

你刚好回答了我差点打断你问的问题：归根结底，是不是亮氨酸含量才是关键？

You answered the question that I almost interrupted you to ask, which was, does it boil down to the leucine content?

听起来，这确实是其中一个关键因素——很多优质的植物性蛋白来源，都伴随着大量的碳水化合物或脂肪，这让控制总热量变得特别难。

And it sounds like that is one of the components, and that a lot of the vegan and vegetarian sources of excellent protein, that excellent protein vegetarian or vegan source, is co packaged with calories from carbohydrates and or fat that make it hard to stay under the core is true.

而牛排呢，当然有些人出于伦理考虑会避开它，但那是另一回事了；牛排、鸡胸肉或者鸡蛋，几乎都是纯蛋白加脂肪的组合，尤其是鸡蛋，虽然蛋黄有脂肪，但几乎不含碳水。

Whereas a steak is, and obviously people might want to avoid that for ethical reasons, but that's a different matter entirely, but a steak or a piece of chicken or an egg is, well, an egg has a yolk, which is there's fat there, but is almost a pure protein fat source.

碳水化合物一点都没有额外带进来。

There's no carbohydrate along for the ride.

其实也不是做不到，只是需要多花点心思规划一下。

You know, you can do it, takes a little more planning.

尤其是如果你是纯素食者，几乎肯定最好还是补充一些分离提取的植物蛋白。

And you're almost always if you're a vegan, especially, you're gonna be better off, like, supplement some isolated form of protein or vegan form of protein.

这时候有人就会问了，那限制性氨基酸之类的问题怎么办？

Now this is where it gets into people say, well, what about the limiting amino acids and those sorts of things?

这确实值得考虑。

It's a consideration.

在植物蛋白里，氨基酸组成比较好的，比如大豆蛋白。

Some of the better forms of vegan protein in terms of amino acid content are like soy.

现在网上人人都在吵着自己的睾酮水平。

Now I can everybody hear everybody screaming online about their testosterone levels.

关于睾酮的实际影响，最近有一项针对大豆的荟萃分析。

In terms of actual outcomes and looking at testosterone, there was a recent meta analysis looking at soy.

如果你的蛋白质来源只有大豆，那摄入量可能高到会引发一些异常反应。

And I think if it's your only source of protein, then maybe the dosage is high enough to cause some weird effects.

但如果你只是每天吃一两次，似乎对睾酮或雌激素没什么影响。

But if you're just using it, like, once or twice a day, doesn't seem to have an effect on testosterone or estrogen.

所以大豆可以算是不错的蛋白质来源，因为它含有人体所需的全部氨基酸。

So that can be a decent source of protein because it is a complete protein source.

它的PDCAAS值是1，这个指标是用来衡量蛋白质质量的，看它是否提供足量的所有必需氨基酸，没有哪种是缺乏的。

It does have a PDCOS of one, which PDCOS is basically a a measure of protein quality based on does it provide enough of all the amino acids so that none are limiting.

大豆是少数几种能达成这一点的植物性蛋白来源之一。

And so soy is one of the only vegan sources that does that.

有趣的是，马铃薯蛋白分离物的必需氨基酸组成其实和乳清蛋白很接近。

Interestingly, potato protein isolate actually has a similar essential amino acid content to whey.

所以纯化的马铃薯蛋白，真的很难买到。

So isolated potato protein, it's just really hard to find.

另一个使用纯化蛋白的好处是，它被分离出来后生物利用率更高。

Another reason using an isolated protein can be helpful is because it's more bioavailable as well when it's been isolated out.

当蛋白质还裹在植物原料里的时候，通常生物利用率会低一些。

When it's the protein bound up in the actual plant material, it tends to be less bioavailable.

不过烹饪能提高生物利用率，因为它能破坏一些化学键之类的。

Now cooking can help increase the bioavailability because it breaks some of those bonds and and whatnot.

另外，考虑植物性蛋白时，还得看亮氨酸含量。

The other thing to consider with the vegan sources of protein is the leucine content.

我们做过一项研究，比较了小麦、大豆、鸡蛋和乳清蛋白。

So one of the studies we did was we looked at wheat, soy, egg, whey.

我们控制了蛋白质含量，让各组的蛋白总量一样。

Isonitrogenous, meaning we equated protein between the groups.

热量也保持一致，然后观察了肌肉蛋白的合成情况。

Isocaloric, we equated calories, and we looked at muscle protein synthesis.

当时每餐的蛋白质占总能量的15%左右。

And I think this was the meals were 15% of total energy from protein.

也就是跟膳食指南推荐的蛋白质摄入量差不多。

So like a like your food guide pyramid level of protein.

结果发现，小麦和大豆组的肌肉蛋白合成效应没有提升，但鸡蛋和乳清蛋白组明显提升了。

And we saw that in the wheat and soy group, they did not increase muscle protein synthesis, but the egg and whey group increased muscle protein synthesis.

有意思的是，我们后来给小麦补充了游离亮氨酸，使其含量达到乳清蛋白的水平，结果肌肉合成反应完全一样。

Now what's really interesting is we went back and we took wheat and added free leucine to it to match the leucine content of whey, and the protein synthetic response was identical.

所以，我不太喜欢过度简化，但亮氨酸确实才是关键所在。

So, again, I I don't like to simplify things too much, but leucine appears to really be driving this ship.

对于素食者来说，有几种不同的选择。

A few different options for the vegan folks out there.

你可以选用提纯后的蛋白质来源。

You can use an isolated source of of protein.

而且未来会有很多不错的选择，因为植物基的乳清蛋白会是个很好的方案。

And, like, there's gonna be good options coming because this plant based whey is gonna be a great option for folks.

你可以把游离亮氨酸加到你任何蛋白质来源里。

You can add free leucine to it to whatever your source of protein is.

直接买添加了亮氨酸的粉末就行。

Just buy supplemented leucine powder.

不过味道特别差。

Now it tastes horrible.

它完全是非极性的。

It's completely nonpolar.

它在任何东西里都溶解不了。

It does not dissolve in anything.

但可以装进胶囊里。

And it is into capsules.

真难吃。

Gross.

它可以被装进胶囊。

It can be put into capsules.

是的

Yeah.

所以你可以吃一粒胶囊。

So you could take a capsule.

比如说，你吃正餐的时候，可以直接吞一粒含一克亮氨酸的胶囊。

Like, for example, if you're eating your normal meal, you could just take a capsule of, like, one gram of Leucine.

这样应该就能让你的摄入量达到足够有效的水平了。

It's probably gonna bump you up bump you up enough that you're gonna be good to go.

还有一些混合型的选择，特别是玉米制品。

There's options like blends, especially with corn.

玉米的蛋白质中，亮氨酸的占比其实挺高的。

Corn is actually very high in Leucine as a percentage of its protein.

但你要记住，你吃一根玉米棒子，总共才摄入大约两克蛋白质。

Now you gotta remember, like, you you go eat corn on a cob, and you're getting, like, two grams of total protein.

所以实际得到的亮氨酸也没多少。

So it's not that much leucine.

但如果你把蛋白质单独提取出来，做成粉状，那现在你摄入的重量里有90%都是蛋白质了，而玉米蛋白中的亮氨酸含量大约占12%。

But if you isolate out the protein, put it into a powder, well, now, you know, when you're getting, like, 90% of the weight is now protein, corn is actually about 12% leucine in terms of the protein.

所以玉米蛋白确实是亮氨酸的优质来源，只是其他一些氨基酸含量偏低，不过你可以把它和其他蛋白质来源搭配起来用。

So a great source of leucine, it is, like, almost frank deficient in some other amino acids, but you can blend it with a few other sources of protein.

比如，把它和大豆蛋白、豌豆蛋白混合，就能做出互补的配方，既富含亮氨酸，也包含其他必需氨基酸。

Like, you could blend it with a soy, a pea, and you can create these complementary blends that would actually have quite a bit of leucine, but also some of the other essential amino acids.

所以对于吃植物性饮食的人来说，其实是有不少选择的。

So there are options out there for plant based folks.

而且我们确实见过不少纯素食者练出了非常可观的肌肉。

And, I mean, we have seen people who are plant based build impressive amounts of muscle.

有不少健美运动员都是纯素食的。

There's quite a few bodybuilders that are plant based.

我想稍微休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商Function。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor Function.

Function提供超过160项高端实验室检测，帮你全面了解身体的健康状况。

Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.

这份检测报告能帮你了解心脏健康、激素水平、自身免疫功能、营养状况等多个方面的情况。

This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.

他们最近还新增了高级MRI和CT扫描服务。

They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.

Function不仅提供160多项关乎身心健康的生物标志物检测，还会分析结果，并由顶尖医生给出改善健康的建议。

Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.

比如，最近一次用Function做检测时，我发现自己的血脂有轻微异常。

For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.

于是我就开始补充纳豆激酶，它能自然地帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇。

As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol.

效果确实很明显。

And it did.

后续复查时，我确认这个方法真的有效。

In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.

现在我的血脂已经恢复到理想水平了。

My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.

像Function提供的这种全面的实验室检测，对健康来说真的特别重要。

Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that function offers is just so important for health.

我的意思是，你要怎么才知道身体内部到底发生了什么？

I mean, how else are you going know what's going on under the hood?

虽然我每年都做血液检查，但以前又耗时、又复杂，还特别贵。

And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time consuming, complicated, and expensive.

说实话，我以前每年花几千美元，就为了搞到这类数据，但结果往往也不怎么样。

In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data and the data frankly, we're not all that good.

但现在有了Function，一切都变得特别简单，价格也亲民多了。

But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.

Function的会员费每天才一美元，一年才3.65美元。

A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $3.65 a year.

想想它提供的信息，能帮你避开多少健康风险，又能主动帮你提升健康，我真的觉得这是一笔省钱的投资。

And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.

想了解更多，请访问functionhealth.com/huberman，使用代码Huberman，可获得50美元会员抵扣。

To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.

再强调一遍，是 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.

我们能不能对下面这些内容做个简短的总结？

Can we come up with a relatively short summary of the following?

你看看我这么说对不对。

Tell me if this is correct or not.

大多数人应该把注意力放在非加工或轻度加工的食物上。

That most of us should be focused on ingesting non processed and minimally processed foods.

我完全同意你的观点，专注于轻度加工的食物确实非常重要。

I would 100% agree with what you said, that trying to focus on minimally processed foods is very important.

不过我想补充一点，理解背后的原因也很关键。

The one caveat I would say is I think it's important to understand why.

加工食品会让人不知不觉吃更多。

Processed food just gets people to spontaneously eat more.

凯文·霍尔在他的研究中证明了这一点，那真是营养学领域设计得最精妙的实验之一。

Kevin Hall showed this in his study that was very I mean, he designed some of the most elegant studies in nutrition.

他们让原本吃低加工食品的人转而接触超加工食品。

They basically took people from a minimally processed food diet and then gave them access to ultra processed foods.

没给多少指导，就是让他们吃到饱，结果他们每天自发多吃了500大卡。

Very few instructions, just eat till you feel satisfied, and they spontaneously increased their calorie intake by 500 calories a day.

这数字太惊人了。

That's massive.

不过话说回来，这得看个人情况和目标。

Now that being said, it depends on the individual and their goals.

如果你的目标是增肌，或者像NFL进攻锋线球员那样保持高体重，那你的蛋白质、纤维和微量营养素就特别重要。

If your goal is to, for example, build muscle or maintain a high body weight for a sport, for example, like an NFL offensive lineman or or something of that nature, your protein, your fiber, your micronutrients, these are your responsibilities.

但当你摄入的总热量更高的时候，这些营养目标反而更容易达成。

But those become much easier to hit when you have higher calories.

如果你每天吃4000大卡，不管目标是什么，大概都会有多余的热量空间。

If you're eating 4,000 calories a day for whatever goal you have, you're probably gonna have some leftover.

但你试试看，想靠加工食品吃下4000大卡，那可真不容易。

And, like, good luck eating 4,000 calories from mentally processed foods.

说实话，你会很难受，因为吃得太多，肚子胀得连动都懒得动。

You quite frankly, you'll be miserable because you're you're gonna have such gut fill that you're gonna feel like you can't even move.

所以我才这么较真，非得强调一下：好吧。

And so that's why I'm so pedantic and a stickler about saying, okay.

对。

Yes.

偶尔吃一点高度加工食品没问题，尽量少碰加工食品，但不是因为加工食品本身有多坏，而是吃多了容易过量摄入热量，进而导致能量过剩，对健康产生负面影响。

It's a good idea to eat a little mentally processed food and try to avoid processed foods, but not because processed foods are bad per se, but what the outcome tends to be from a lot of processed food consumption, which is over consuming calories, and then therefore, you know, energy toxicity negatively contributing to your health.

这正好引出了我们当初认识时聊的那个话题。

This I think is a perfect segue for something that first brought us together.

就是人工甜味剂的事。

Was this thing about artificial sweeteners.

人工甜味剂的作用可不止一种。

Artificial sweeteners are many things.

我想先聊聊它们对血糖的短期影响，至于肠道菌群方面的研究数据，也挺值得深入说说。

So I'd like to talk about their effects on blood sugar in the acute sense, and then the gut microbiome data, I think, are interesting enough to discuss.

根据你教我的内容，我对人工甜味剂的看法已经改变了。

I have changed my view on artificial sweeteners based on what you've taught me.

这真是我彻底扭转观点的一个例子——现在我觉得完全没必要对它们有顾虑，基于现有的研究数据。当然，我不是在狂喝一大杯三氯蔗糖，但喝点赤藓糖醇或阿斯巴甜，我是完全不担心的。

So this is a case where I've completely changed my view, which is that I don't have any problem with them whatsoever based on the current data, which is not to say that I'm gulping down a cup fulls of sucralose, but I feel okay ingesting some stevia and some aspartame, and I'm not too worried about it.

我们还得再想想优先级的问题，对吧？

We have to think about, again, the hierarchy of importance, right?

你用这些东西替代了什么？

And what are you replacing with?

只要把喝含糖饮料的人换成喝人工甜味剂饮料的人，这种情况在任何情况下都是净收益。

There is no situation where it is not a net positive to take somebody who drinks sugar sweetened beverages and have them drink an artificially sweetened beverage.

比如最近有一项荟萃分析，专门研究了体脂指标、糖化血红蛋白，还有其他一堆健康指标。

Like, the in the meta analysis, there was actually a recent network meta analysis looking at, like, markers of adiposity, you know, h b a one c, a bunch of different health markers.

当你用非营养性甜味剂来替代含糖饮料的时候——顺便说一句，赤藓糖醇其实不算人工甜味剂。

And when you substitute, you know, we'll call it non nutritive sweeteners since stevia is not artificial.

但当你用非营养性甜味剂替代含糖饮料时，很多健康指标都会明显改善。

But so when you substitute NNS for the sugar sweetened beverages, you see improvements in a lot of different things.

每当我发帖讨论非营养性甜味剂时，评论区总有一两个人说：我就把含糖饮料戒了，改喝无糖饮料，结果瘦了五十磅，或者七十五磅。

And whenever I post about non nutritive sweeteners in the comments, there's always one or two or three people who say, all I did was cut out soda, and I drank diet soda instead, and I lost 50 pounds, or I lost 75 pounds.

我甚至有个粉丝减了一百磅。

I even had 1%.

我减了一百磅。

I lost a 100 pounds.

我就做了这一件事。

That's the only thing I did.

真的吗？

Wow.

这可是个相当大的突破口啊。

I mean, that's a pretty massive lever to pull.

想象一下，有人每天喝五六瓶可乐，那摄入的热量可真不是小数目。

You consider somebody who might be having, like, I mean, five or six Cokes a day, we're talking a serious amount of calories.

那个靠这个方法减掉一百磅的肥胖者，我真的会在意他肠道菌群可能发生的微小变化吗？

Is that obese person who lost a 100 pounds by doing that, do I really care about maybe a small alteration to their gut microbiome?

不是的。

No.

因为随着他们减掉了那么多多余的脂肪组织，他们的肠道菌群实际上变得更健康了。

Because their gut microbiome is actually much more healthy now by them having lost all that excess adipose tissue.

所以我觉得这得看具体情况。

So I think it's one of those things that, again, it depends on the situation.

对吧？

Right?

比如，如果一个人肥胖，他说这能帮他戒掉含糖饮料。

Like, if somebody's obese and they said, well, this is gonna help me, you know, eliminate sugar sweetened beverage.

那为什么要剥夺他这个有效的工具呢？

Like, why would you wanna take that tool away from them?

这确实是个非常有效的切入点。

Like, that's a a great lever to pull.

我是说，如果一个人仅仅通过一个并不太麻烦的生活习惯改变，就能减掉整整一百磅，这力量是巨大的。

I mean, if somebody can lose literally a 100 pounds from just one change in lifestyle that's not even really that inconvenient of a change, that is powerful.

但话说回来，这真的是他们能做的最健康的选择吗？

But, again, is it the most healthy thing they could do?

我觉得这恰恰是大家常会问的问题。

And I think that's kind of, like, what tends to get asked.

我们其实不知道。

We don't know.

它比喝水更健康吗？

Is it healthier than water?

大概不是。

Probably not.

也许和喝水一样健康。

Maybe as healthy as it.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

但我之所以要强调这些前提，是因为你不希望那些本可以借助这种方法的人误以为：不行。

But I really make all those caveats because you don't want to have people who could use this as a tool think, well, no.