精华：治疗、应对创伤及其他生活挑战 | 保罗·康蒂博士

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室精华版，在这里我们会回顾过往节目，为您提供最有效且可操作的、基于科学的心理健康、身体健康和表现提升工具。

Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.

我是安德鲁·休伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

接下来是我的对话，内容是关于博士。

And now for my discussion with Doctor.

保罗·孔特。

Paul Conte.

保罗，非常感谢你今天来到这里。

Paul, thank you so much for being here today.

哦，谢谢你邀请我。

Oh, thank you

非常感谢你邀请我。

so much for having me.

我们可以从最基础的内容开始，让大家先有个基本的了解。

We could just start off very basic and just get everyone oriented.

我们该如何定义创伤？

How should we define trauma?

我认为我们需要

I think we have

把创伤看作不是发生在我们身上的任何负面事件，对吧？

to look at trauma as not anything negative that happens to us, right?

而是那些超出了我们应对能力、并让我们因此发生改变的事情。

But something that overwhelms our coping skills and then leaves us different as we move forward.

它会改变我们大脑的运作方式，对吧？

So it changes the way that our brains function, right?

而这种改变会在我们今后的生活中显现出来。

And then that change is evident in us as we move forward through life.

我们可以在情绪、焦虑、行为、睡眠和身体健康中看到它。

We can see it in mood, anxiety, behavior, sleep, physical health.

因此，我们不仅能识别它，还能在大脑的变化中观察到它。

So we can identify it, and we can also see it in brain changes.

如果创伤达到了改变我们大脑功能的程度，那么几乎总会伴随着内疚和羞耻的反应，这会让我们——也常常确实让我们——去压抑它、回避它，而这恰恰与我们需要做的完全相反。

If trauma rises to the level of changing the functioning of our brains, then there's almost always a reflex of guilt and shame around the trauma that can lead us, and often leads us, to bury it, right, to avoid it, which is exactly the opposite of what needs to be done.

我们需要沟通，用语言表达出我们内心正在经历的一切，而很多时候，一个人其实知道真相，只是不敢承认，因为他们害怕面对它，对吧？

We need to communicate and put words to what's going on inside of us, and very often a person knows, but they're not admitting to themselves because they're afraid of it, right?

他们不知道该怎么做，但如果他们开始倾诉，就会谈到那个事件或那种情境。

They don't know what to do, but if they start talking, then they'll talk about the event or the situation.

这可能是某种急性事件，也可能是长期持续、对他们造成严重伤害的情况，对吧？

It could be something acute, or it could be something chronic that really has been harmful to them, right?

之后他们会感到自己变了，但这种情况并不总是会发生。

And then they feel different afterwards, but that doesn't always happen.

有时候，这是一个通过对话进行探索的过程，对吧？

Sometimes it's a process of exploration, you know, through dialogue, right?

无论是通过书写还是口头表达，个体都在探索自己内心的改变，也许是自我对话方式的改变，对世界看法的改变，以及自己是否能安全、顺利地在这个世界中前行。

Whether it's written or whether it's spoken of the person sort of exploring the changes inside of themselves, maybe changes to their self talk inside, changes to their thoughts about the world and whether they can navigate safely and readily in it.

当我谈到这些时，我会用一个例子来锚定理解，这个例子就是我自己的人生经历：当我年轻时，二十岁出头，我的弟弟自杀了。

And it anchors, as I talk about this, the example I'll use at times is the example of my own life where, you know, when I was much younger, in my early twenties, my younger brother took his life by suicide.

于是，内疚、羞耻和将这一切压抑在内心深处的反应，虽然听起来很夸张，但我就是不去正视它，因为我根本不知道该怎么办，我感到内疚，觉得自己有责任，又感到羞耻，所以内心一直在逃避。

And, you know, the response of guilt and shame and hiding all of it inside of me was it says very dramatic, but I wasn't acknowledging it, right, because I didn't know what to do about it, and I felt guilty, and I felt responsible, and I felt ashamed, so there was an avoidance inside of me.

所以我没意识到变化其实发生在自己身上，而我只是在糟糕地照顾自己。

So I didn't see that the change was in me, but I was taking care of myself poorly.

当时有太多不健康的事情在发生，我再也无法回避这样一个事实：嘿，我现在已经不一样了。

Like there was enough going on that was unhealthy that I couldn't avoid the realization that like, Hey, I'm different now.

而这些变化是自动发生的，比如我本能地怀疑：我能在世界上立足吗？

And in these ways that are automatic, you know, my reflex to, Can I make my way in the world?

我能拥有幸福的生活吗？

Can I have a good life?

我能快乐吗？

Can I be happy?

但面对这些问题时，我的本能反应全都不一样了，它们都笼罩在高度焦虑、过度警觉、内疚、羞耻和与世界格格不入的感觉之中，幸好身边有善良 helpful 的人，加上我自己的觉醒：嘿，事情不对劲了，对吧？

Well, my reflexes to that were all different, and they were coming through the lens of heightened anxiety, heightened vigilance, a sense of guilt, a sense of shame, and a sense of non belonging in the world, and was ultimately good and helpful people around me, and my own realization that, hey, things are not going well, right?

这促使我寻求帮助，开始谈论这些事，并意识到：天啊，我必须直面内心正在发生的一切。

That led me to then get some help and to be able to talk about it and realize like, Oh my gosh, I need to face these things that are going on inside of me.

为什么

Why do

你认为当我们经历创伤时，这些被称为内疚和羞耻的情绪会浮现？它们一定在我们体内有某种存在的理由，但在这个情况下，它们似乎并没有对我们起到积极作用。

you think that when we experience trauma, these things that we call guilt and shame surface, those emotions must exist in us for some reason, but in this case, it seems like they don't serve us well.

那么，为什么我们似乎天生就倾向于在遭遇创伤时感到内疚和羞耻？而这恰恰是我们最不应该做的反应。

So why is it that we seem to be reflexively wired to feel guilty and feel ashamed when that's the exact opposite of what we need to do in the case of trauma?

在进化过程中，我们身上发生了一些适应性的变化，但在现代生活中，这些变化却变得不再适应。

There's something adaptive that has happened in us through evolution that now becomes maladaptive in the way we live in the modern world.

如果回顾人类发展的大部分时期，人们的寿命并不长，核心目标是生存与繁衍。

So if you think of through most of human development, people weren't living that long, and the idea was to survive and reproduce.

因此，当我们经历创伤时，这些记忆留在我们心中是有道理的，对吧？

So traumatic things that happened to us, it would make sense for them to stay with us, right?

如果你吃了某种新食物后严重生病，你最好记住它，对吧？

So if you ate a new food and got really, really sick, it's like, You better remember that, right?

如果你看到几英里外一群人的其中一个攻击了你，你最好记住这件事。

If you see someone from the group of people a couple miles away, and one of those people attacks you, it's like, You better remember that.

所以那些创伤性的事情深深烙印在我们的大脑中，本就是为了持久存在的，对吧？

So the traumatic things that are sort of emblazoned in our brain are built to last, right?

积极的事情会让我们产生一些情绪，但那些极其负面的事情更有可能长期留在我们心中。

Things that are positive will generate some emotion inside of us, but things that are profoundly negative are much more likely to stay with us.

我认为这在当时是为了生存而具有适应性的，对吧？

And I think that that was adaptive, right, when all of that was about survival, right?

我认为羞耻感也是如此。

And I think the same thing is true with, say, shame.

边缘系统，也就是我们大脑中常被称为情绪系统的部分，实际上具有多种功能，对吧？

The limbic system, right, the system often is called the emotion system, right, in our brains has actually, of course, varying function, right?

其中一个方面是情感反应，对吧？

And one aspect is affect, right?

因此，我们会被激起情感反应。

So affect is aroused in us.

这种反应是不由我们自主选择而产生的，对吧？

It's created in us without our choice, right?

所以，如果我们走在路上，有人突然跳出来或推我们，就会产生恐惧或愤怒的反应，对吧？

So if we're walking down the road and someone jumps in front of us or pushes us, right, then there's a response of fear, anger, right?

心跳开始加快，血液更多地流向肌肉。

Heart starts beating faster, you know, more blood to the muscles.

我们准备好了要战斗，或者逃跑，对吧？

We're getting ready to fight, right, or run, right?

然后我们才意识到这一点。

And then we become aware of it.

因此，我们内心被激起的情绪也关乎生存，并对我们产生深远的影响。

So the aroused affect in us is also about survival, and it has a very deep impact upon us.

羞耻是一种被激起的情绪。

And shame is an aroused affect.

它可以在我们毫无选择的情况下被引发，并且非常强烈——如果你仔细想想，这是一种极其有效的威慑力。

It can be raised in us without our choice, and it's very powerful, which if you think about that is an extremely strong deterrent.

想象一个部落或一群人共同生活，有人在夜里偷偷吃掉了一半的食物，对吧？

You know, imagine a tribe or a group of people, right, that are sheltered together, and, you know, someone eats half the food at night or something, right?

而且会有一种非常负面的反应，对吧？

And like there's a very negative response, right?

那个人会感到羞耻，因为羞耻感对控制行为非常有效，对吧？

And that person feels shame because shame is so powerful to control behavior, right?

创伤改变我们大脑的方式，会让我们持续处于一种状态：要更加警惕。

So the way that trauma can change our brains and stay with us in a way that says, Be more vigilant.

以不同的方式看待这个世界。

Look at the world in a different way.

更加防御性地行动，对吧？这与羞耻和内疚密切相关。

Act more defensively, right, and how that links to shame and to guilt.

那么内疚就变成了技术上所说的‘感受’，即我们将这种被激发的情感与自己联系起来，对吧？

So then guilt becomes what gets called feeling technically, where we relate the aroused affect to ourselves, right?

所以，羞耻是被激发的情感，内疚是下一步——当羞耻被关联到自我时，这两种情感都是极其深刻的行为干预和威慑机制，我认为从进化角度看，这完全说得通。

So shame, the aroused affect, and guilt, the next step, right, when the shame gets related to self are such profound behavioral interventions and deterrents that you can see, I think, how evolutionarily kind of all makes sense.

如果我们为了生存而斗争，而你是一位德高望重的长者，能活到20岁，这种机制是有道理的，但在我们寿命更长的今天，它就不那么合理了，对吧？

If we're fighting for survival, you know, and we're an elder statesman, if we make it to 20, this makes sense, but it doesn't make sense in a world where we live much longer, right?

我们以各种不同的方式应对生活，周围有太多可能造成创伤的事物。

We navigate in all sorts of different ways, and there's so much coming at us that can be traumatizing.

我们的大脑天生会因创伤而改变，但这种改变方式并非我们体验创伤的方式，也不同于现代生活中生活本质和寿命长度所要求的方式——这些创伤往往对我们伤害极大，因为它们改变了大脑的运作方式，进而彻底改变了我们对世界的认知，这种影响可能持续数年甚至更久。

Our brains are built to change from trauma, but not in the way we experience trauma and not in the way that we live life in terms of the nature of living life and the duration of life in the modern world where these traumas that happen to us are often so bad for us because they they change how our brain is functioning, and then our entire orient orientation to the world is different, and that could be for, you know, years and years.

我想短暂休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商Function。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors Function.

去年，我在寻找最全面的实验室检测方案后，成为了Function的会员。

Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

Function提供超过100项先进的实验室检测，能全面反映你的身体状况。

Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.

这些检测结果能帮助你了解心脏健康、荷尔蒙水平、免疫功能、营养状况等多方面信息。

This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.

Function不仅提供超过100项对身心健康至关重要的生物标志物检测，还会分析这些结果，并由相关领域的顶尖医生提供专业解读。

Function not only provides testing of over a 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.

例如，在我第一次使用Function检测时，我发现自己的血液中汞含量偏高。

For example, in one of my first tests with function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.

Function 不仅帮助我发现了这个问题，还提供了降低汞含量的最佳建议，包括减少金枪鱼的摄入。

Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption.

我一直在大量食用金枪鱼，同时努力多吃绿叶蔬菜，并补充 NAC 和乙酰半胱氨酸，这两种物质都有助于谷胱甘肽的生成和解毒。

I've been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.

我必须说，通过进行第二次 Function 检测，我发现这种方法是有效的。

And I should say by taking a second function test, that approach worked.

全面的血液检测至关重要。

Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.

有许多与你的身心健康相关的问题，只有通过血液检测才能发现。

There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.

问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。

The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.

相比之下，我对 Function 的简洁性和低廉的价格印象深刻。

In contrast, I've been super impressed by function simplicity and at the level of cost, it is very affordable.

因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，并非常高兴他们赞助了这个播客。

As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

如果你想尝试Function，可以访问functionhealth.com/huberman。

If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.comhuberman.

Function目前有超过25万人的等待名单，但他们为Huberman播客的听众提供提前访问权限。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.

再次提醒，访问functionhealth.com/huberman即可获取Function的提前访问权限。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

我以前听说过这个概念，我认为这是弗洛伊德提出的重复强迫理论。

This idea that I've heard about before, I think it was a Freudian concept of a repetition compulsion.

是的。

Yes.

我对重复强迫这个概念的理解是，我们都希望解决自己的创伤，因此会不断让自己陷入这些创伤的微观或宏观版本中。

My understanding of this concept of the repetition compulsion is that we all want to solve our traumas, it allows us to put ourselves into micro or again, macro versions of that over and over again.

我们一遍又一遍地重演这个实验，试图找到解决办法。

We get to run the experiment again and again an attempt to solve it.

为什么有人在一段虐待关系中，还会继续陷入第二段、第三段甚至第四段言语或身体上的虐待关系呢？

Why is it that somebody who is in an abusive relationship goes on to have a second and third or fourth verbally or physically abusive relationship.

我们一遍又一遍地看到这种情况。

We see that over and over.

这并不是每个人都有，但很多经历过创伤的人确实如此。

It's not necessarily in everyone, but boy, it is in a lot of people who have suffered trauma.

表面上看，这毫无道理。

On the surface of it, it makes no sense.

但如果我们想想，我们的大脑究竟是如何运作的呢？

But then if we think, well, how our brains actually function?

对吧？

Right?

我们至少在西方社会被训练成认为自己是理性生物，对吧？

We're sort of trained, at least in Western society, I think, to think of ourselves as logical creatures, right?

好像我们是理性的，最终一切都可以归结为逻辑，但这完全不对。

That like, oh, we're logical, and ultimately everything in us can just boil down to logic, which is completely not true.

边缘系统，也就是我们体内的情绪系统，总是压倒逻辑。

The limbic system, right, the emotion system, so to speak, inside of us always trumps logic.

对吧？

Right?

你想想，冲进着火的建筑里，这有道理吗？

If you think about, does it ever make sense to run into a burning building?

我的意思是，理性告诉我们：不应该。

I mean, logic says no.

对吧？

Right?

但如果你爱的人在着火的建筑里，人们就会冲进去。

But if someone you love is in the burning building, people run right in.

对吧？

Right?

因为情绪系统告诉我们：要冲。

Because the limbic system says yes.

所以当理性与情感正面交锋时，情感总是胜出，而边缘系统根本不关心时间或日历。

So when logic and emotion come head to head, emotion wins all the time, and the limbic system does not care about the clock or the calendar.

所以，我把这与重复强迫联系起来的方式是：当人们不断重复时，他们其实是在试图把事情纠正过来，认为如果能重复这个情境并把它修正，就能解决一切问题——这听起来很有道理，如果我们想想，这个想法究竟从何而来？

So how I would relate that to the repetition compulsion is when people are repeating, what they're trying to do is to make things right, right, with the idea that if we can repeat the situation and make it right, it will fix everything, right, which makes perfect sense if we think, Well, where is that concept coming from?

它源自大脑的情感部分，这部分渴望从创伤的痛苦中获得解脱，却不理解时间或日历的概念，所以如果我现在能解决某个问题，我就能同时解决过去的问题，对吧？

It's coming from the emotional part of the brain that wants relief from suffering of the trauma and does not understand the clock or the calendar, so if I can solve something now, I will also solve something in the past, right?

这就是为什么我无数次坐下来和某人说：我们开始做治疗了，对吧？

Which is why I can't tell you how many times I've sat with someone, and say, We're starting to do therapy, right?

然后对方会说：我过去七段关系都是虐待型的，而我有时会回应说：好吧，如果你告诉我你经历了七段以不同方式虐待你的关系，我确实会同意。

And a person will say, My last seven relationships have been abusive, and I'll say back something sometimes like, Well, look, if you tell me that you've had seven relationships that have been abusive in different ways, I'll agree with you.

我只是这么说，因为从来没有人真的会那样说。

Like, I only say that because that's never what someone says.

对吧？

Right?

但我认为你真正想说的是，你其实只是重复了同一种关系七次。

But I think what you're gonna tell me is you've kind of had the same relationship seven times.

于是，灵光一闪的时刻就出现了。

So it's the bulb that goes off.

我不是有七个不同的虐待关系。

Like, I have not had seven different abusive relationships.

我只有一个关系，重复了七次。

I have had one that I have repeated seven times.

现在我们开始触及真正发生的事情以及需要做什么。

And now we start getting to what's really going on and what needs to happen.

这个人需要面对最初虐待关系中发生的事，而归根结底总是那些相同的感受：在虐待发生时感到恐惧、内疚、羞耻，觉得自己活该，不配得到更好的待遇，对吧？

That person needs to face what happened in that original abusive relationship, and it always comes down to the same sort of concepts of the person feeling terrified while the abuse was going on, feeling guilty, feeling ashamed, feeling like, oh, they brought it on themselves, they deserve it, they don't deserve anything better, right?

因为大脑在试图理解这一切，对吧？

Because the brain is trying to make sense of it, right?

或者，我以为我能让它变好，但我没能做到，对吧？

Or, I thought I could make that okay, but I couldn't, right?

然后更多的内疚和羞耻接踵而至。

And then there's more guilt and more shame.

如果这些情绪被压抑在一个人内心，就像身体里一个封闭的感染脓肿，大脑中也是同样的道理，那么边缘系统当然会想要修复它，而它的修复方式就是试图重现那个情境，这次一定要让它变好。

And if that's stuck inside of someone, like that's bundled up inside of someone, like a medical abscess inside a person, a walled off infection inside the body, this is the same concept in the brain, then of course the limbic system is gonna wanna fix that, and it fixes it by trying to, Let's recreate that situation and make it right this time.

我在临床中一遍又一遍地看到这种模式上演。

I see that play out clinically over and over again.

那为什么情况会好转呢？

And why do things get better?

因为我们直面创伤并解开它。

Because we go to the trauma and we unlock it.

它不再被隐藏起来控制一切，对吧？

It's not hidden inside where it can control things, right?

我们把它带到表面，然后剥夺它的力量。

We bring it to the surface, and then we can take away its power.

关于这件事、这些事件（复数）的想法，会引发这种唤醒状态和内在感受。

The thought about the thing, the event, or events, plural, evokes this arousal, this internal state.

它让一些人感到困倦和疲惫，让另一些人感到极度焦虑，还有些人则感受到——正如你所知——这种具有多种维度的唤醒状态。

It makes some people feel sleepy and exhausted, other people feel really anxious, other people feel I mean, arousal that has all these different dimensions, as you know.

显然，我们需要直面这些问题。

It's clear we need to confront these things.

那么我们该如何应对这种唤醒状态呢？

And so how do we deal with arousal?

一个人该如何处理内心对某种羞耻感的体验？

How does one take what they feel inside about something shameful?

你

What do you

在那一刻该如何应对？

do with it in a moment?

这是否必须在一位受过专业训练的人在场时才能完成？我们该如何应对这种内在的唤醒？

And does that have to be done in the presence of a skilled trained How do we deal with that internal arousal?

我们常常试图改变过去的创伤以控制未来，而这实际上意味着过去的创伤主宰了我们的现在。

We so often try and change the trauma of the past in order to control the future, And what that really adds up to is the trauma of the past dominates our present.

于是我们并没有真正活在当下，对吧？因为我们一直在试图控制未来。

And then we're not really living in the present, right, as we're trying to control the future.

如果我们没有真正活在当下，就不可能很好地掌控我们的未来。

We're not going to do a great job of controlling our future if we're not really living in the present.

所以，要应对这种情况，再次强调，在当下时刻，如果我们说：好吧，在当下，如果我需要入睡，我可能会想：好吧，让我试着把这件事从脑海中赶出去。

And so the way to come at that, again, in the moment, if we're saying, Okay, in the moment, if I need to fall asleep, right, I might say, Okay, let me try and put that out of my mind.

让我试着进行思维转移。

Let me try and thought redirect.

因此，有一些短期策略可以帮助我们在这些变化中保持功能正常，但真正的解决方法是直接面对那件事。

So there's short term strategies that can let us be functional in the context of these changes, but the answer is to go look directly at that thing.

直视那种创伤，探索那种创伤，当然，这可以借助专业人士来完成，有时这样做是合理的，但并不总是如此，对吧？

Look at that trauma, explore that trauma, and sure, that can be done with a professional, and sometimes that's what makes sense, but not always, right?

有时候，可以通过与他人交谈来实现，对吧？

Sometimes it can be done by talking to another person, right?

把它写下来，对吧？

Writing it down, right?

看看我内心正在发生什么，为什么我的思维如此执着于这件事。

Look at what's going on inside of me that my mind is so stuck to this.

让我们来探索一下。

Let's explore that.

我们常常如此害怕直面那些改变我们的创伤，以至于宁愿去看任何其他地方。

We're so afraid so often of looking at the trauma that has changed us, that we'll look anywhere but at that.

当一个人把这一切用语言表达出来时，结果往往就会改变——无论是写下来，还是与值得信赖的人或治疗师交谈。

What ends up happening is when the person puts words to it, right, it could be in writing, it could be talking to a trusted other or with a therapist, right, things start to change.

我的意思是，只要你能谈论它，能用语言表达出来，而别人也不会退缩，这就已经很有意义了。

I mean, just the fact that you can talk about it, you can put words to it, and other people don't recoil.

你知道，就像那个说‘好吧’的人。

You know, that example of the person who says, okay.

我小时候曾被教练虐待。

I was abused by a coach when I was a child.

一旦他们开始谈论这件事，就会开始说起自己当时只是天真的孩子。

And once they start talking about it, then they start talking about how, you know, they were just innocent kids.

对吧？

Right?

他们当时并不懂，真的很想加入那个教练把他们当作特别人物的团队，而现在，他们终于能从旁观者的角度看待自己了。

Like, they didn't know and, like, they really wanted to be on the team where this coach was treating them as special, and now they can look at themselves from the outside, right?

他们可以像看待别人一样看待自己。

They can look at themselves like they would look at someone else.

你觉得，当我们面对别人时，看清楚什么是真实和真相真的那么容易吗？

You think it's so easy for us to see what's real and true if it's someone else, Right?

如果你问一个人，你觉得一个十岁、十一岁被成年人虐待和操纵的孩子怎么样？

If you ask someone, you know, what do you think of someone who's 10, 11 years old who's abused and manipulated and abused by an adult?

你会说，天哪。

You say, oh my goodness.

我会对那个人感到同情。

I feel compassion for that person.

对吧？

Right?

但如果是自己，那就不同了，哦，不。

But if it's us, right, then, oh, no.

那是内疚和羞耻，我们必须把它藏起来。

It's guilt and shame, and we have to hide it away.

当这个人开始审视它时，他们能从外部视角来看待它，这样就能逐渐削弱它所承载的能量。

And when the person starts looking at it, they can sort of see it from the outside, and it starts to take the energy out of it.

人内心所有的内疚和羞耻，都会与‘那里究竟发生了什么？’形成对比。

All the guilt and shame inside the person gets juxtaposed to like, What really happened there?

然后他们会说，对，我那时是个害怕的孩子。

And then they say, Right, I was a terrified child.

我并不完全理解这一切，他们于是能走向一种同情，现在我们正在对抗内疚和羞耻。

I didn't understand it all, and they can come to a place of compassion, and now we are working against the guilt and shame.

如果这个人因此哭泣，那再好不过了。

And if the person cries about it, then it's great.

我的意思是，哭泣是我们拥有的最好的应对机制之一。

Mean, crying is one of the best coping mechanisms we have.

它不会伤害我们，反而让我们能够哀悼失去的东西。

It doesn't hurt us, and it lets us grieve things.

如果我们内心充满内疚和羞耻，就无法真正哀悼。

We can't grieve if there's guilt and shame inside of us.

它只是阻碍了悲伤。

It just blocks grief.

为了感受到悲伤，某种程度上必须有一个清零的状态。

There has to be a clean slate in a sense in order to feel sadness.

然后你会看到，情绪从焦虑、愤怒和挫败感（通常指向自己）——以及内疚和羞耻，转变为能够去处理它，能够展现出同情，并将负面情绪引导到真正该被指向的地方。

And then you see that it shifts from anxiety, anger, and frustration, usually directed towards the self, guilt and shame, towards being able to process it and being able to bring to bear some compassion and being able to direct the negative emotion, so to speak, where they're warranted.

天啊，这些变化真是太显著了。

And my goodness, the changes.

真惊人，仅仅把事情说出来，像我们现在这样谈上一个小时，就能让人感觉好很多。

It's remarkable how just getting it out there and having, like, one hour of talking like that, like like what we're talking about now, can leave a person feeling immensely better.

我们该如何

How do we

以一种不会对我们自己造成重大再创伤的方式来做这件事，或者

do that in a way that isn't re traumatizing ourself in a major way or in

哪怕是一点点创伤？

a minor way?

这始于真正的内省。

It starts with real introspection.

你知道，当事情在我们脑海中不断盘旋时，通常是非常无益的，对吧？

You know, when things are bouncing around in our minds, often it's very nonproductive, right?

一遍又一遍地重复同样的事情，这对我们并没有帮助，对吧？

It's the same thing over and over again, and that's not helpful for us, right?

所以，如果我们只是反复思考，用一贯的方式去想，那我们实际上只是在强化创伤。

So if we're just thinking about it, and we're thinking in the same way we sort of, in a sense, always think about it, then all we're doing is reinforcing the trauma.

对吧？

Right?

但如果我们能保持足够的距离，就能以新的方式思考，产生以前没有过的念头，对吧？

But if we can distance enough, then we can think in ways that allow us to have new thoughts, right, that we weren't having.

它不再只是在我们脑海中反复打转。

It's not just bouncing around in our minds.

如果我们说出来或写下来，大脑中就会启动更多机制，这些机制本质上是监控机制。

And if we speak or write, there are even more mechanisms that come online in our brains, right, that are then sort of monitoring mechanisms.

如果我们使用语言，我们的思维方式会不一样，对吧？

We think in a different way if we're using words, right?

我们往往更能调动那个观察性的自我，去觉察我内心正在发生什么。

And we are better able often to bring in that observing ego, like what's going on inside of me.

所以，思考、与他人交谈——比如信任的朋友、家人或神职人员，或者写下来，这些都非常有帮助。

So it can be very helpful to think, it can be helpful to talk to someone, to a trusted other, you know, friend, family, clergy, to write.

我的意思是，这些事情都不需要消耗任何资源就能做到。

I mean, these are things that can be done without expending any resources.

有时，如果症状足够严重，我们确实需要寻求专业人士的帮助，来找到创伤的根源。

And sometimes if the symptoms are significant enough, like we really do need to talk to somebody professional who can help us get to the root of the trauma.

我想短暂休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商Element。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element.

Element是一种电解质饮品，含有你所需的一切，而没有任何不需要的东西。

Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

也就是说，含有适量的电解质、钠、镁和钾，但不含糖。

That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts, but no sugar.

适当的水分补充对大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。

Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.

即使轻微的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。

Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.

确保摄入足够的电解质也很重要。

It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.

电解质如钠、镁和钾对身体所有细胞的功能至关重要，尤其是神经元或神经细胞。

The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.

将Element溶解在水中饮用，可以轻松确保你获得充足的水分和电解质。

Drinking element dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.

为了确保摄入足量的水分和电解质，我每天早上醒来时，会将一包Element溶解在约480到960毫升的水中，并在早晨第一时间喝掉。

To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of Element in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.

在进行任何体力活动时，尤其是炎热天气下大量出汗、流失水分和电解质时，我也会饮用溶解了Element的水。

I'll also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.

Element有多种美味的口味。

Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors.

我喜欢覆盆子味，也喜欢柑橘味。

I love the raspberry, I love the citrus flavor.

目前，Element推出了一款限量版柠檬水口味，简直美味至极。

Right now, Element has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.

我不太想说哪一个口味最棒，但这款柠檬水口味和我最爱的覆盆子味或西瓜味不相上下。

I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, is raspberry or watermelon.

再说一遍，我实在选不出唯一最爱的口味。

Again, I can't pick just one flavor.

我全都喜欢。

I love them all.

如果你想尝试Element，可以访问drinkelement.com/huberman，拼写为drinkelement.com/huberman，购买任何Element饮品粉后即可免费领取一份试用装。

If you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman, spelleddrinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free Element sample pack with a purchase of any Element drink mix.

再次提醒，访问drinkelement.com/huberman即可领取免费试用装。

Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

在寻找心理治疗师时，应该关注哪些特征？

What are some of the characteristics that one should look for in looking for a therapist?

如果你看一下

If you look

在寻找治疗师时最重要的十个因素是什么，重复十次‘关系’就行了。

at what are the top 10 important factors to find in a therapist, just repeat rapport 10 times.

是信任。

It's trust.

是双向的互动。

It's a back and forth.

是的，即使我在做困难的事，我也是在和一个真正帮助我的人一起做，一个与我并肩同行、全神贯注、希望我变得更好的人。

It's like, Yeah, even though I'm doing something difficult, I'm doing it with someone who's really helping me, someone who's in it with me, Someone who's really paying attention, wants me to be better.

这是不可或缺的。

That's indispensable.

我认为优秀的治疗师不会被某种特定疗法所局限。

I think that good therapists are not pigeonholed by a certain modality.

他们可能主要通过心理动力学、认知行为疗法或辩证行为疗法等视角来看待世界，还有很多不同的治疗方法，但当你真正与那些经验丰富的好治疗师交谈时，所有这些方法都是通过关系这一载体来实现的，他们会根据来访者的需求灵活调整。

They may, you know, come at the world largely through a psychodynamic or a CBT or a DBT lens, or there's lots of different, you know, ways to do therapy, But when you really talk to those people, really good experienced therapists, it's all coming through the vehicle of the rapport, but they're practically shifting to what the person needs.

如果你拥有这一点，你就拥有了制胜的组合。

If you have that, you've got a winning combination.

所以人们或许应该尝试几位治疗师，进行一两次甚至三次会面，看看是否建立了良好的关系。

So people should perhaps try a few therapists and maybe have a session or two or three to see if the rapport feels like it's taking root.

是的，我认为这就是为什么口碑很重要，对吧？

Yeah, and I think that's why word-of-mouth is important, right?

如果你信任的人告诉你，这个人很不错，这说明了很多问题，对吧？

If someone you trust tells you, Hey, this is a good person, that says a lot, right?

这已经让初步成功的概率变得很高了。

It already makes the pretest probability is quite high.

一个人该如何判断自己应该接受多少治疗呢

How does one gauge how much therapy they ought to be

呢？

doing?

这是否应该总是由治疗师来决定？

And should it always be on the therapist to decide that?

是的，我认为很多时候是治疗师会说，看起来需要更多、更深入的工作，才能产生效果。

Yes, I think a lot of times it would be the therapist to say it looks more work, you know, more intensive work can make a difference.

但我认为当事人自己也需要承担起责任，对自己的治疗负责。

But I think the person also needs to, you know, take ownership, right, of their own therapy.

并且要说：如果我觉得帮助不够，那我得认真思考一下，跟治疗师谈谈，因为也许这位治疗师并不适合我。

And say, If I don't feel helped enough, well, I have to think about that, right, and talk to the therapist about that, because maybe that therapist isn't a match.

人们可能会陷入一种治疗节奏中，但实际上并没有帮助到他们，他们要么对治疗感到虚无，觉得‘我没什么好转，但还是在做治疗’。

People can get into a rhythm of therapy where it's really not helping them, right, but they either feel sort of nihilistic about it, like, Oh, I'm no better, and I'm going to therapy.

我们真的需要审视自己吗？

Do we really need to look at ourselves?

而这也是保险体系常常很困难的地方，因为有时候人们很难开口说‘我需要更多治疗’，因为这可能并不现实。

And this is where the insurance systems often are very difficult because it's hard sometimes for a person to say, Oh, I need more therapy because that may not be possible.

所以，我们周围的世界存在一些负面因素，但最终，这个问题的答案在于观察自己、对自己的内心状态和感受负责，然后下定决心去改变。

So there are sort of negative factors in the world around us, but ultimately, I think the answer to the question comes down to observing ourselves and taking ownership of like what's going on in us and how we're feeling, and then feeling that commitment to self or to self care to say, I need to go change this.

现在我想稍微谈一谈化学反应。

Now I'd like to talk a little bit about chemistry.

是的。

Yes.

药物。

Drugs.

你如何看待处方药在治疗创伤和其他疾病中的作用？

How do you think about prescription drugs in the context of treating trauma and other conditions?

没错，我认为我们这个国家往往过度使用药物，因为我们的医疗体系非常注重效率，往往只在引擎出问题时去抛光车壳，对吧？

Right, I think that we tend to overutilize medicines in this country because we have a healthcare system that often, that's so based on throughput that we want to polish the hood when there's a problem in the engine, right?

所以我们经常把药物当作最终解决方案，对吧？

So we overutilize medicines often as an endpoint, right?

哦，我们要用抗抑郁药来改善那个人的抑郁症状。

Oh, we're going to make that person's depression better with an antidepressant.

但大多数情况下，要让那个人的抑郁真正好转并持续好转，他们需要厘清导致抑郁的根本原因。

Most of the time, for that person's depression to really get better and stay better, they need to unravel what's driving the depression.

所以第一个关键点可能是：诊断是什么？

So the first kind of branch point can be, what is the diagnosis?

严重程度如何？

What is the level of severity?

对吧？

Right?

我认为这非常重要。

And I think that's very, very important.

大多数受益于抗抑郁药的人，并没有临床意义上的重度抑郁。

And the vast majority of people who are helped by antidepressants, they don't have clinically severe depression.

对吧？

Right?

这些药物能增强我们的痛苦耐受力。

Those medicines create more distress tolerance in us.

如果你能提高一个人的痛苦耐受力，并且用药物减轻临床上的反刍思维，对吧？

If you can improve someone's distress tolerance, and you can use medicines that take away what clinically is rumination, right?

不是这个词的普通含义，而是临床意义上的反刍思维——即我们大脑中某些痛苦中枢过度活跃，导致我们陷入这些适应不良的负面思维循环，反复思考同一个问题，却根本没有解决的可能，因为问题的根源并不在外部，而在于我们内心。

Not the standard meaning of that word, but the clinical meaning of it where there are distress centers in our brain that are overactive, and then we get stuck in these maladaptive negative pathways, where we think about something over and over and over again with no real chance of solving it because that's not what's going on inside of us.

所以药物可以帮助缓解这种情况，但我们需要对它们的概念保持一定的灵活性。

So medicines can help with that, but we have to have some flexibility around their conception.

而现代医疗体系中，精神科医生每次只提供十五分钟的就诊，且间隔数周，我真的不明白这种方式怎么能奏效。

And the modern medical system of fifteen minute visits to a psychiatrist that are weeks apart, I mean, I don't understand how that goes well.

我认为，我们整体上使用的药物量大约是荷兰人口的五倍。

We use, I think, approximately five times as much medicine, I think, across the board as, say, the Dutch population.

他们的医疗体系和文化体系，据我所知，更注重个人对自己负责。

They have a healthcare system and a cultural system that, to the best of my understanding, is more rooted in taking responsibility for oneself.

所以当一个人来就诊，发现胆固醇偏高时，首要的事情是：嘿，你可以更好地照顾自己。

If So a person comes in and cholesterol is high, right, the first order of business is, hey, you could take better care of yourself.

对吧？

Right?

这个人真的需要减点体重，多运动。

Like, this person really needs to lose some weight, exercise more.

对吧？

Right?

他们不会只是简单地跳到给你开药，然后把你推过医疗系统，让你从另一扇门出去。

They're not just jumping to like, let me give you a medicine and and, you know, and shift you through the healthcare system and out the other side of the door.

所以我认为，药物在很大程度上被过度使用，这既是因为系统性原因，也与某些分类方式有关。

So I think medicines get overused in large part for systemic reasons and also for some of these categorization reasons.

哦，这个人符合抑郁症的一些技术标准。

Oh, that person meets some technical criteria for depression.

我们必须给他们开这种药，而不是真正去思考：这个人的具体情况到底怎么了？

We got to give them this medicine, instead of really thinking, wait, what's going on in this person?

我一次又一次地看到这种情况。

And I see this over and over again.

看到一个人在服用七种药物，而这七种药分别治疗七种不同的症状，结果他们又出现了所有这些药物的副作用。

See someone who's on seven medicines, and they're on seven medicines to treat seven different symptoms, and now they have side effects from all those seven medicines.

也许其中两种药是用来治疗另外五种药带来的副作用，对吧？

Maybe two of them are to treat the side effects from the other five, right?

这很糟糕。

And that's bad.

我想在前提下讨论致幻剂，即我们是在合法的临床环境中谈论这个话题。

I'd love to talk about psychedelics with the preface that we're talking about this in a legal clinical setting.

你对这些药物的治疗潜力以及潜在风险等有什么看法？

What are your thoughts on these drugs for therapeutic potential, also potential hazards, etcetera?

来自实验室和学术中心的数据非常积极。

The data coming from the labs and the academic centers is so powerfully positive.

这些药物在专业人员的指导下，以正确的方式使用，是非常强大的工具。

These are used in professional hands and with the right kind of guidance, are extremely powerful tools, but used in the right way.

我们观察到大脑外层区域的交流或 chatter 减少了，也就是大脑皮层的外层。

What happens is we see less communication or less chatter in the outer parts of the brain, right, in the outer parts of the cortex.

语言就在这里。

That's where language is.

视觉也在这里。

That's where vision is.

执行功能也在这里。

That's where executive function is.

所以是计划和任务执行。

So planning and task execution.

因此，我们在这世界上前行的很大一部分都与此相关，我认为当我们把神经递质从这些区域移除，转而聚焦在大脑的中部区域——比如岛叶皮层——的时候，这里我认为才是真正体现人性的地方。

So, so much of that is about making our way in the world around us, and I think when we take the neurotransmission out of those places, right, and we set it in a part of the brain and say the insular cortex, right, the parts of the brain that are sort of in the middle, right, which I think, I believe is where our humanness really is.

因此，致幻剂减少了大脑其他区域的 chatter 和交流，使我们得以安住于我认为最能体现真实人性的脑区。

So the psychedelics make there be less chatter, communication in these other parts of the brain, and then we become seated in the part of the brain that I believe is most about our experience of true humanness.

你知道，这就是为什么人们能清晰地看到：哦，那个创伤，其实不是我的错。

You know, it's why people can sort of see with clarity that, oh, that trauma, like, thing is not my fault.

我们对自己产生了一种慈悲感。

Like, we feel a sense of compassion for ourselves.

我们从内疚中解脱出来，他问：为什么这对人们如此有帮助？

We relieve ourselves, release ourselves from guilt, and he's like, why is this so helpful to people?

我认为这是因为，它能实现我们在良好治疗中试图达成的目标，而且能通过让人置身于大脑的这个区域而加速这一过程——在这个区域，人们能看清事物的本质，而不受皮层中那些杂音的干扰，比如‘这一定是你的错’‘你不能再犯了’，这些正是重复强迫的根源。

And I think it's because it can do what we are trying to get at in good therapy, but it can really catalyze that by just putting a person in that part of the brain that can see it for what it is without all that chatter in the cortex about, Hey, you gotta think it's your fault, you won't avoid it again, and that makes the repetition compulsion.

我该如何预判接下来可能发生的事？还会有哪些坏事发生？

How do I think ahead to the next thing that might happen, and what else bad might happen?

我的意思是，我们这样下去是不会有进展的。

I mean, we don't get anywhere doing that.

这些致幻剂的医疗价值，我认为在于将我们置于大脑的某个部分，在那里人能够真正找到真相，这就是为什么我认为它在近几年取得了如此大的进展，因为我认为这一点在临床上非常明显，我相信我们会越来越多地看到它的价值，以及致幻剂所起的作用如何能够成为一种启发，帮助我们理解：等等，我们的大脑究竟是如何运作的？哪些部分才是真正关乎我们作为人类体验的核心？

These psychedelics, the medicinal value, I believe, is putting us in that part of the brain where a person can really find truth, and that's why I think that it's come so far in these few years because I think that is very clinically evident, and I think we're going to see more and more the value of that and how what the psychedelics do can become, I believe, a heuristic for understanding, like, wait, how are our brains really functioning, and what are the parts that really matter to our experience of being human?

就是大脑的这些部分，对吧？

It's those parts of the brain, right?

大脑深处的部分，比如岛叶皮层以及周围的区域，当一个人经历精神狂喜或与他人产生连接时，这些区域会活跃起来。

The deep parts of the brain, the insular cortex, and areas around it that, say, light up when a person has an experience of spiritual ecstasy or an experience of connection with another person.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们有一些明显的迹象表明，那里正在发生一些非常重要且特殊的事情，而当他们以正常的认知方式重新回归时，会意识到：哇，我现在正用所有那些试图理解真相的机制去审视它，而我看到的是，这确实是真实的。

So we kind of have these telltale markers that something is going on there that's very important and very special, And then when they come, in a sense, back online in a normal cognitive way, they realize like, Wow, now I'm applying all those mechanisms of trying to understand truth to that, and what I see is that it's true.

哇，这是真的。

And wow, it's true.

我的意思是，我们经常听到这样的话，这告诉我，那里正在发生一些不同的事情。

Like, I mean, we hear that all the time, which tells me, Hey, something different is going on there.

当然，这些是强大的工具，如果滥用，可能会导致非常糟糕的结果，但当你考虑它们的临床价值时，就会发现为什么这么多人因此变得 healthier，甚至彻底改变了人生？

And of course, these are powerful tools, so misused, like very bad things can happen, but you think about the clinical utility, and what does it mean that so many people change for the healthier or even change their lives?

我认为，它们很可能是强大的抗创伤机制，当然，必须在专业临床环境下使用。而且我认为，我们还会发现，它们是一种理解大脑的启发式方法，这与我所看到的一些本能的傲慢观点相悖——即外层大脑区域才是最好的，因为那是人类独有的，而其他动物没有，所以我们更优越。

I think we're likely to see that they are powerful anti trauma mechanisms, again, used clinically in the right hands, And and I think that we're also gonna see that they're a heuristic for understanding our brain that goes against what I see as some of the reflexive hubris of, well, the outer parts must be the best because that's what makes us human and other animals don't have it, and we're better because we're human.

我的意思是，这毫无道理。

I mean, it makes no sense.

你知道的吧？

You know?

我们早就知道，有很多方法可以改善我们的睡眠。

We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep.

其中包括我们可以服用的一些物质，比如苏糖酸镁、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸，还有一些不太为人所知的成分，如藏红花和缬草根。

And that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser known things like saffron and valerian root.

这些都是有临床研究支持的成分，能帮助你更快入睡、保持睡眠，并在醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。

These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.

我很高兴向大家介绍，我们长期的赞助商AG1刚刚推出了一款新产品——AGZ，这是一种夜间饮品，旨在帮助你获得更好的睡眠，并让你醒来时感觉超棒。

I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor AG1 just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super.

在过去的几年里，我与AG1团队合作，共同开发了这款新的AGZ配方。

Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.

它包含了最佳的助眠成分，并且以精确的比例混合在一种易于饮用的饮品中。

It has the best sleep supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy to drink mix.

这消除了试图在纷繁复杂的助眠补充剂中寻找合适组合、确定正确剂量的复杂性。

This removes all the complexity of trying to forge the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you.

据我所知，AGZ是目前市场上最全面的助眠补充剂。

AGZ is to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.

我通常在睡前30到60分钟服用，顺便说一句，味道非常好，它显著提升了我睡眠的质量和深度。

I take it thirty to sixty minutes before sleep, it's delicious by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.

我之所以知道这一点，既源于我个人对睡眠的主观感受，也因为我一直在追踪自己的睡眠数据。

I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep.

我非常期待每个人都能尝试这款全新的AGZ配方，享受更好睡眠带来的益处。

I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep.

AGZ提供巧克力味、巧克力薄荷味和混合浆果味三种口味。

AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors.

正如我之前提到的，它们都非常美味。

And as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious.

我最喜欢的三种口味之一，我觉得是薄荷巧克力，但我其实都很喜欢。

My favorite of the three has to be, I think chocolate mint, but I really like them all.

如果你想尝试AGZ，请前往drinkagz.com/huberman获取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.

再次提醒，网址是drinkagz.com/huberman。

Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.

我想谈谈MDMA。

I'd like to talk about MDMA.

你认为MDMA会引发哪些状态，从而解释它在某些情况下为何是一种有效的治疗工具？

What sorts of states do you think MDMA is creating that can explain why it's

这些情况具体是哪些呢？

a useful therapeutic tool in some cases, and what sorts of cases those might be?

这和致幻剂非常不同，对吧？致幻剂是在大脑的深层区域激发我们的意识，对吧？

This is very different than the psychedelics, right, which are seeding our consciousness in these deep centers of the brain, right?

而MDMA的作用是让大脑某些区域的积极神经递质大量释放，对吧？

Whereas what MDMA is doing is sort of flooding with positive neurotransmitters, right, in certain parts of the brain.

我认为这会让人内心更加开放，更容易接纳或面对不同的事物。

And I think what that creates is a greater permissiveness inside to entertain or approach different things.

当这些系统被这些神经递质充满时，人就更容易去思考这些问题，对吧？

And when these systems are flooded with these neurotransmitters, it's more permissive to sort of think about that, right?

而且能摆脱那些杂音，比如‘这都是你的错’、‘你永远都不会有进展’、‘你知道这意味着什么’，对吧？

And to think about that without, again, all the chatter of that's your fault, or you're never gonna get anywhere because of that, or you know what that means, right?

这些声音会消失，于是我们就能以不带恐惧的眼光去思考这些问题。

They can kind of go away, and then we can think about it in a way that isn't through the lens of fear.

我认为这就是它的力量所在：它让人能够开放地去接近、去思考某些事物，比如新奇的东西。

And I think that's the power there, is that it's permissive of approaching something, contemplating something, you know, novelty.

我们谈到一种全新的方法。

We talk about a de novo approach.

我认为这也是为什么体验会因人而异的原因——如果你并没有在思考什么特定问题，而且缺乏临床引导，你可能会处于一种‘我只是感觉很好’的状态，但这并不一定有助于解决问题。

And I think that's also why the experience can vary because you could also see how if you're not thinking about something, right, so there's not a clinical guidance to it, you could be in a state where like, I just feel good, but that's not necessarily problem solving.