精华内容：利用光照时机改善睡眠、精力与情绪 | 萨默尔·哈塔尔博士

欢迎来到《Huberman Lab精华》，在这里我们重温往期节目，为您带来最有力、最具可操作性的基于科学的心理健康、身体健康和表现提升工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天，我很荣幸地邀请到Samer Hattar博士作为《Huberman Lab播客》的嘉宾。现在开始我与博士的对话。

Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, I have the pleasure of introducing Doctor. Samer Hattar as my guest on the Huberman Lab Podcast. And now my conversation with Doctor.

Samer Hattar。Samer，感谢你抽空与我交谈。

Samer Hattar. Samer, thanks for sitting down with me.

我的荣幸。

My pleasure.

你在科学界最为人所知的是关于光如何影响情绪、学习、进食、饥饿、睡眠等主题的研究。或许你可以先带我们了解光与这些因素如情绪、饥饿等之间的关系。

You are best known in scientific circles for your work on how light impacts mood, learning, feeding, hunger, sleep, and these sorts of topics. So maybe you could just wade us into what the relationship is between light and these things like mood and hunger, etcetera.

当然。我是说，你确实能体会到光对视觉的影响。当你在美丽的地方醒来，看到美丽的海景，光至关重要，日出日落。那是你对光的有意识感知。但光还有一个完全不同的方面，独立于有意识的视觉。

Sure. So, I mean, you do appreciate the effect of light for vision. So when you wake up in a beautiful area, beautiful ocean, light is essential, the sunrise, the sunset. So that's your conscious perception of light. But light has a completely different aspect that is independent of conscious vision.

那就是它如何调节你体内的许多重要功能。我认为研究最深入、最广为人知的是你的生物钟。'Circadian'（昼夜节律）这个词源自'circa'，意为大约，'dian'意为日。所以它是一个近似的一天。为什么是近似的一天？

And that's how it regulates many important functions in your body. I think the best that is well studied and well known is your circadian clock. And the word circadian comes from the word circa, which is approximate and DN is day. So it's an approximate day. Why is it an approximate day?

因为如果我把你或其他任何拥有正常生物钟的人置于恒定条件下，没有关于进食时间、睡眠时间或外界时间的信息，你仍然会有每日的节律，但它并不正好是24小时。所以它会偏离太阳日，因为它不是精确的24小时，因此得名'circadian'（昼夜节律）。

Because if I put you or any other human being who have a normal circadian clock in a constant conditions with no information about feeding time, about sleep time, about what time it is outside, you still have a daily rhythm, but it's not exactly twenty four hours. So it will shift out of the solar day because it's not exactly twenty four hours and hence the name sarcasm.

这种节律如何体现在我们身体的组织中？

How does that rhythm show up in the tissues of our body?

它体现在我们所研究的每一个层面。它体现在细胞层面，体现在组织层面，也体现在你的行为上。对你来说最明显的是你的睡眠-觉醒周期。你睡觉、醒来，睡眠遵循24小时的节律。平均而言，睡眠节律的周期长度是24.2小时。

It shows up at every level that we know we studied. It shows up at the level of the cell, it shows up at the level of the tissue, and it shows up at your behavior. The most obvious for you is your sleep wake cycle. You sleep and you're awake and sleep at the twenty four hour rhythms. The period length of the sleep rhythm on average is twenty four point two hours.

所以如果你不接触阳光，你每天会偏离太阳日0.2小时。阳光将这个近似的一天调整为精确的一天，这样你的行为就与光暗环境或太阳日同步了。这是大脑中不受意识驱动的部分，所以你实际上不知道它何时发生或不发生。这正是我们接下来要探讨的，比如为什么光会影响你的情绪，以及为什么有时人们不知道如何利用光来改善情绪。

So you'll be drifting zero point two hours every day out of the solar day if you don't get the sunlight. So the sunlight adjusts that approximate day to an exact day, so now your behavior is adjusted to the light dark environment or the solar day. It's part of the brain that is not consciously driven, so you actually do not know when it happens or when it doesn't happen. And that what we'll get into when I tell you why light affects your mood and why sometimes people don't know how to deal with light to improve their mood, for example.

这有什么关联性？我是说，我们为什么要关心那短暂的时间差？

What's the relevance? I mean, why should we care about that short difference?

让我们来算一下。如果你每天偏移0.2小时，五天内就会偏移1小时。也就是说，五天后你的社交行为会与正常时间相差整整1小时。十天后就是2小时。对于野外生存的生物而言，若与昼夜周期相位错位，要么会错过觅食机会，要么可能沦为其他生物的食物。

So let's do the math. If you shift out zero point two hours a day, in five days, you're shifting out one hour. So you're literally one hour off in your social behavior in five days. In ten days, you're two hours off. And if you're an organism that is living in the wild, shifting out of the right phase of the cycle, you could either miss food or you could become food.

因此这对生存至关重要。我认为对动物而言，能够预判并适应太阳周期是最强大的生存能力之一。

So it's really essential for survival. I think it's one of the strongest aspect of survival for animals to have the anticipation and the adjustment to the solar cycle.

实现这种功能的生理机制是什么？这套机制又是如何运作的？

What is the machinery that allows that to happen? And how does that machinery work?

是的，我们知道包括人类在内的哺乳动物，眼睛是实现这一功能的关键器官。如果人类先天无眼或视神经受损，就无法适应太阳周期。视网膜中有两种感光细胞，因其形状被称为视杆细胞和视锥细胞。

Yeah, so we knew that in mammals, including us, we are mammals, humans, that the eyes are required for this function. So if humans are born without eyes or the optic nerves are damaged, humans are not able to adjust to the solar cycle. So we know that the eyes are required. In the human retinas, there are two types of photoreceptors. They are called rods and cones because of their shapes.

这些视杆视锥细胞将光子能量（光的构成单位）转化为电信号，使我们能在脑皮层构建环境图像。但包括我和David Berson、Ignacio Provencio在内的研究者发现，视网膜神经节细胞中有个特殊亚群——这些本该仅负责向大脑传递光环境信息的细胞，其本身竟是被长期忽视的感光受体。

And these rods and cones simply take the photon energy, which light is made of, and they change it in a way to an electrical signal that allow us to build the image of the environment in our cortices. However, people have found, including me with the work of David Berson and Ignacio Provencio, that there is a subset of ganglion cells. The ganglion cells are the cells that leave the retina, their axon leave the retina and project to the brain. So these were thought to only relay rod and cone information from the light environment to the brain. We found that a small subset of these ganglion cells are themselves photoreceptors that were completely missed in the retina.

正是这些感光受体将光环境信息潜意识地传递至大脑生物钟所在区域，使人体所有外周时钟能与中枢脑时钟同步，从而适应24小时昼夜循环。

And these are the photoreceptors that relay light environment subconsciously to the areas in the brain that have and house the circadian clock or the circadian pacemaker, which adjusts all the clocks in our bodies to the central brain clock, that allows them to entrain to the twenty four hour light dark cycle.

所以这些连接眼球与大脑的细胞本身就具有感光功能对吧？值得一提的是，那些因视觉皮层受损失明但保有眼球的人，多数仍具有这些黑视素感光细胞，仍能实现我们所说的昼夜周期同步。

So these are cells that connect the eye of the brain that behave like photoreceptors Right. I think it's worth mentioning now that people who are pattern vision blind, so people who cannot see, but have eyes, many of them still have these cells, these melanopsin intrinsically photosensitive cells, and can essentially match or entrain, as we say, onto the light dark cycle.

事实上他们的昼夜节律光同步可能完全正常，睡眠觉醒周期也很规律——尽管他们完全丧失图像视觉。有个来自Chuck Sisler的案例很有意思：这类患者常伴有干眼症，过去医生认为'既然失明又饱受干眼之苦，何不摘除眼球？'

In fact, they possibly have no problems in circadian photo entrainment. They'll have enormous sleep wake cycle. But they're totally blind. But they are totally image blind. And what's really interesting is that, and this story I heard from Chuck Sisler, so I'll give him credit, that some of these people who are image blind, usually they get dry eyes and they give them a lot of pain and doctors used to think, Oh, since they are image blind and they're getting dry eye, why don't you just remove their eyes?

但摘除后患者立即出现周期性睡眠障碍，表明他们失去了与昼夜周期的同步能力，生物钟在明暗循环中持续漂移，就像不断经历时差反应。

They're not using them anymore. And the minute they would remove their eyes, they start having cyclical sleep problems indicating that now they are not in training to the light dark cycle and are having cyclical jet lags when their clock shifts through the light dark cycle.

这确实很有趣。而且我听很多盲人提到，他们中很多人存在睡眠问题，我认为部分原因是他们没有意识到自己也需要在一天或夜晚的特定时间接触光线，才能完全匹配他们的... 那么最初阶段与光线互动的正确方式是什么？

That's really interesting. And I hear from a number of blind people, a lot of them have issues with sleep, I think in part because they don't realize that they too need to see light at particular times of day or night in order to Absolutely. Match their What is the proper way to interact with light in the first part of

白天？说实话，我认为最简单的事就是醒来时尽可能多地接触光线。

the day? Honestly, I think the easiest thing is waking up. Get as much light as you can.

让光线进入你的眼睛。

Into your eyes.

没错，这样很好。你的生理系统已经准备好——如果你已形成节律，它就会准备好接收光线。太阳应该已经升起，即使是阴天，你也能获得足够的光照强度来帮助你将昼夜节律调整到与自然同步。

Yeah, it's really nice. Your system is primed. If you're entrained, it's primed to get light. The sun should be out. Even when it's cloudy, you're to get enough intensity to help you adjust your cycle to the day night cycle.

这些都是通用的经验法则，

These are general rules of thumb,

但具体

but how

你建议人们户外活动多长时间？比如说

long do you recommend people go outside? So if

如果每天坚持，我会说十五分钟。如果不规律进行，可能需要延长时间。多做无妨。而且告诉你，如果是敏感人群，甚至不需要直接晒太阳，在树荫下也可以。

you do it daily, I would say fifteen minutes. If you don't do it daily, you may want to increase it. You do it more, it doesn't hurt. And I'll tell you, if you're sensitive, you don't even have to go in the sun. You could be in the shade.

树荫下的光子量已经非常充足，效果会很理想。

There's going to be so many photons out there in the shade. It's going to be perfect.

明白了。如果因为某些原因身处极北地区且云层极其厚重，这种情况下应该考虑用人工光源模拟阳光吗？需要照射多久以及在什么时段进行？

Okay. And if for some reason one finds themself very far north and it's very, very dense cloud cover. How long and at what point should somebody consider using an artificial light source to mimic the sunlight?

确实，坦白说，这部分我们仍缺乏大量信息，因为我们将在此更详细讨论的是：如果将人类置于人工环境中，昼夜节律系统对光线极为敏感。但在现实的自然环境中，光线还会影响与昼夜节律起搏器设定无关的其他方面。

Yeah, honestly, is where we don't have a lot of information still, because this is where we're going to discuss this maybe in more detail that if you put humans in artificial conditions, the circadian system is very sensitive to light. But in reality, in the real environment, light also is affecting other aspects that are independent of the setting of the circadian pacemaker.

明白。

Okay.

比如我们称之为光线对情绪的直接效应。因此很难确定需要使用多大强度。由于这个系统是最近才被发现，我们尚未进行足够实验。但说真的，如果你身处高纬度地区正值冬季，想确保不使用这些光疗灯箱，我个人会这么建议。

And these which we call the direct effect of light on mood, for example. So that is very hard to figure out what intensity you need to use. And we haven't done enough experiments because the system has been discovered just recently. But yeah, I mean, if you're, honestly, if you're that far north and you're in the winter and you want to get, make sure you don't use these light boxes. I would suggest that personally.

好的，看来我们已经确定了早晨的第一要务：根据光照强度获取10到30分钟光照，并尽可能规律地坚持——每日

Okay, so I think we've nailed down that first part of the day. Basically, it's get ten to thirty minutes depending on how bright it is, and try and do that as often as possible to give the system a regular- Daily

是最佳选择。这个系统的关键在于持续性，你会发现即使对抑郁症的影响也需要多日累积。所以偶尔漏掉一天不必担心，想多照会儿也行，但若时间紧张还有其他安排，这个建议就很实用。

is the best. This system is really about, and you'll see that even for the effect on depression, it's about multiple days. So you don't have to worry if you missed it one day, you know, stay longer if you want, but if you're in a hurry and you want to do other stuff, that's a great recommendation.

所以如果漏掉一天可能需要额外补些时间？之前听你说过，完全不旅行也可能出现严重时差反应。

So you might want to compensate with some extra time if you missed I've a day or heard you say before, it's entirely possible to get severely jet lagged without traveling.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

只要宅在家里，过度使用手机，确实。没有获得足够的

Simply by staying in, being on your phone too much, Absolutely. Not getting the

疫情期间就见证过这种现象。很多人反映睡眠周期严重紊乱——如果不外出、居家没有大窗户、晚睡晚起，还整夜使用强光设备，你的生物钟就会偏移。原本太阳升起（比如早上6点）是白天的开始，现在身体会认为上午11点才是一天伊始。这样晚上10点自然无法入睡，因为对你身体而言那完全是另一个时段。

you saw this during the pandemic. A lot of people mentioned that their sleep wake cycles suffered a lot because if you're not going out and if you're staying at home and you don't have big windows and you're waking late, waking up late, and then you're using very bright light till late at night, your body's going to shift. And now your day is going to start instead of like really when the sun comes up, let's say at 06:00 in the morning, your day is going to start at 11:00 in the morning. That's what your body's going to think is the beginning of the day. So then you're not going to be able to sleep at 10:00 at night because now that's really, for your body, completely different timing.

请允许我短暂插播感谢赞助商Eight Sleep。他们生产的智能床垫具备冷却、加热和睡眠追踪功能。保证优质睡眠的关键是调节好睡眠环境温度——因为要进入并保持深度睡眠，体温需降低1-3度；而要清醒时精力充沛，体温又需回升1-3度。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct. And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees. And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

Eight Sleep能根据您的独特需求，整夜自动调节床铺温度。我使用Eight Sleep床垫保护罩已超过四年，它彻底改变并提升了我的睡眠质量。Eight Sleep刚推出了最新型号Pod five，具备多项重要新功能，其中之一是名为‘自动驾驶’的AI引擎，它能学习您的睡眠模式，在不同睡眠阶段动态调节睡眠环境温度。

Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs. I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for over four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep. Eight Sleep has just launched their latest model, the Pod five, and the Pod five has several new important features. One of these new features is called autopilot. Autopilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.

它还会在您打鼾时抬高头部，并通过其他调整优化睡眠。Pod five底座内置与Eight Sleep应用同步的扬声器，可播放助眠与恢复音频。音频库包含多段由我与Eight Sleep合作录制的NSDR（非睡眠深度休息）引导语。NSDR能缓解轻微睡眠不足的负面影响，并帮助您在夜间醒来后更快重新入睡——这是人人首次使用就能受益的强大工具。

It also elevates your head if you're snoring and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep. The base on the Pod five also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the Eight Sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery. The audio catalog includes several NSDR, non sleep deep rest scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record. NSDR can help offset some of the negative effects of slight sleep deprivation and NSDR gets you better at falling back asleep should you wake up in the middle of the night. It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time.

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If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to three fifty dollars off the new Pod five. Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and The UAE. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 Today's episode is also brought to us by Roka. I'm excited to share that Roka and I recently teamed up to create a new pair of red lens glasses. These red lens glasses are meant to be worn in the evening after the sun goes down.

它们能过滤屏幕和现代常见LED灯发出的短波光。需要强调的是，Roka红镜片并非传统防蓝光眼镜——它们不仅过滤蓝光，更阻隔所有会抑制褪黑激素的短波光。要知道，晚间保持高水平褪黑激素对顺利入睡和维持睡眠至关重要。

They filter out short wavelength light that comes from screens and from LED lights, which are the most common indoor lighting nowadays. I want to emphasize Roka red lens glasses are not traditional blue blockers. They do filter out blue light, but they filter out a lot more than just blue light. In fact, they filter out the full range of short wavelength light that suppresses the hormone melatonin. By the way, want melatonin high in the evening and at night, makes it easy to fall and stay asleep.

这些短波光还会刺激皮质醇升高——虽然白天需要皮质醇，但夜间则应避免。ROKA红镜片能确保褪黑激素正常分泌，同时维持夜间应有的低皮质醇水平，有效帮助身心放松并改善入睡过渡。访问roka.com（输入代码Huberman）可享首单8折优惠。

And those short wavelengths trigger increases in cortisol. Increases in cortisol are great in the early part of the day, but you do not want increases in cortisol in the evening and at night. These ROKA red lens glasses ensure normal healthy increases in melatonin and that your cortisol levels stay low, which is again, what you want in the evening and at night. In doing so, these ROKA red lens glasses really help you calm down and improve your transition to sleep. If you'd like to try ROKA, go to roka.com, that's r0ka.com and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order.

再次提醒：roca.com结账时输入代码Huberman。关于作息类型（chronotypes），人们普遍认为存在内在最佳节律——要么是晨型人，要么是夜猫子，或是标准型（约10:30睡7点起）。据美国国家心理健康研究院等机构数据显示（如有误请指正），偏离内在节律越远，身心健康问题就越易显现。

Again, that's roca.com and enter the code Huberman at checkout. There is this idea of chronotypes that we all each intrinsically have a best rhythm of either being a morning person, you called yourself an early person, or a night owl, or more of a kind of standard to bed around 10:30, up around seven type thing. And I think there are now good data, correct me if I'm wrong, from the National Institutes of Mental Health and elsewhere, showing that the more we deviate from that intrinsic rhythm, the more mental health issues and physical health issues start to crop up.

这方面有充分数据支持，但存在两个复杂因素：首先是晚睡型人群通常...

So there is great data on this and there's a couple of things that complicate this. The first is the people who usually are late. What do

您指什么？那些晚起晚...

you mean? People that wake up late and go to

晚睡晚起的人。他们抑郁症发病率显著更高——人类早就注意到早睡早起者生活表现更优。但关键在于：这是生理固有特性，还是社会因素所致？

sleep Go to sleep late and wake up late. They have an overwhelmingly higher level of depression because human noticed that people who go to sleep early and wake up early, they do better in life. They notice that. They just perform better. They perform, but the question is, is that intrinsic to the system or is that society?

毕竟社会活动时间通常不是偏早就是偏晚——这是个复杂问题

Because society start things usually early or late. That's a hard question

我们对晚起者存在歧视。

We discriminate against late risers.

在某种程度上，我们确实存在歧视。而且我不太确定人类的昼夜节律系统在人群中会有那么大的差异。显然可能存在一些遗传因素，使得一小部分人像所有呈钟形分布的事物一样与众不同，但我认为大多数情况下，光环境可能起着重要作用。正如我们之前讨论过的，这是光的长期效应。一旦你进入某种节奏，就很难打破这种节奏，因为如果你开始晚睡晚起，你就无法获得晨光。

In a way, we discriminate. And I'm not so sure that the circadian system is that variable in the human population. I mean, clearly there are maybe some genetic factors that make a small percentage of like everything with a bell shape, but I think most of the time the light environment may play a role. And once, as we've talked about, this is a long term effect of light. Once you get into a rhythm, it's hard to break out of that rhythm, because if you start sleeping late and waking up late, you're not getting the morning sunlight.

没错。

Right.

所以你就会一直晚起。

And so you're just going to be late.

在我看来，唯一能真正确定你是天生的早鸟型（如人们所说）、早睡型、晚睡型还是介于两者之间的人，就是接触晨光并观察这是否让你感觉更好。那么人们在下午和晚上应该如何安排他们的光线接触行为呢？

It seems to me is the case, is that the only way to really know if you're meant to be an early bird, as they call it, an early person or a late person, or somewhere in between, is to get morning sunlight and figure out whether or not that makes you feel better. So what should people do in the afternoonevening time in terms of their light viewing behavior?

我认为最好的做法是让自然光逐渐过渡到黑暗，对吧？那将是最理想的。但显然这样效率不高。你想回家，想阅读，想和孩子交谈，想和家人聊天。所以我认为适当延长白天时间是可以的。

I mean, the best thing to do is to let the natural light creep in into darkness, right? That would be the best. But clearly, that would be inefficient. You want to go home, you want to read, you want to talk to your kids, you want to talk to your family. So I think, you know, it's nice to extend the day.

如果你能以某种方式阻止这些光线影响你的生物钟，我不认为这样做有什么问题。

I don't think that's wrong if you somehow can block that light from affecting your circadian clock.

你确实把家里的光线调得很暗甚至全黑

You do keep your home quite dim to dark at I

我是个极端例子，但我自己测量过，也问过我妻子Rejji是否适应。她也喜欢昏暗的环境。我们俩都能在昏暗条件下看得清楚，但我觉得你需要自己测量。这其实是个非常简单的实验：试着把光线调到你能接受的最低亮度。

am an extreme, but I measured it for myself and I asked Rejji, my wife, if she's okay with it. She also liked the dimness. Both of us can see well in dim conditions, but I think you have to measure it for yourself. You really have to do, it's a very simple experiment. Just try to dim the light as much as you can.

我称之为'舒适视觉所需的最小光照量'。如果想保持卧室睡眠环境，可以使用非常暗的红光。极暗的红光对生物钟影响极小，低于10勒克斯的红光完全不会影响睡眠。所以方法还是有的。

I call it the minimum amount of light you require to see comfortably. You know, use red light that is very dim if you want to keep the room for sleeping. Red light that is very dim has very small effect on circadian clock and below 10 lux of red light literally doesn't affect sleep at all. So there are ways to do it.

我曾见过你在天黑后查看手机一两次，而且你是通过将手机稍微侧开的方式操作。确实，如果用手电筒直射眼睛，光线会比这样强烈得多。

I've seen you check your phone after dark once or twice, and you did it by sort of pointing your phone away from Exactly. It actually makes sense that if you shine a flashlight in your eye, it's much brighter than

如果光线直接照射在闪光灯直线上。所以如果你只是从侧面看，大部分光线会朝这个方向传播，而你处于这个角度。即使我偶尔查看时，我也会迅速看一眼然后马上关闭。理想情况下，我不该在夜间查看iPhone和iPad。我晚上不用iPad，因为它太大很难调低亮度。

if Light shine on the flashlight direct on line. So if you just look on the side, most of the light is going to go this way and you're on this angle. And even when I check sometimes, I check it so fast and switch it off so fast. So ideally, I should not check iPhones and iPads. I don't use iPad at night because it's hard to lower it enough because it's huge.

但即便是iPhone，我也尽量不在晚上使用。

But even my iPhone, I try not to use it at night.

几年前你在《自然》杂志发表了一篇我认为具有里程碑意义的精彩论文，表明如果打乱光照暴露或光照时间安排，会对压力系统及学习记忆系统产生显著影响。按我的理解，这意味着我们接触光线的多少可能影响情绪——让我们感到更快乐或更沮丧，甚至导致抑郁、压力、学习能力变化等等。

You had a, what I consider absolutely landmark beautiful paper published in Nature a few years ago, showing that if you disrupt the exposure to light or the timing of the exposure to light, that there are dramatic effects on the stress system and on the learning and memory system. So if I interpret that correctly, that could mean that when we view light and how much light could make us feel happier or less happy, or even depressed, stressed, learning, etcetera.

完全正确。

Bingo.

即使我们保持着正常的睡眠和清醒时间。

Even if we're sleeping and waking up at the appropriate times.

没错。因为我们讨论的是整个系统，当其他问题开始出现时，睡眠问题也会随之产生。实验室Diego Fernandez的最新研究发现，这些功能实际上需要不同脑区参与。我们不仅有理论依据和可分离的光环境证据，更确认它们使用了完全不同的大脑区域——之前提到的SCN（视交叉上核）作为中央起搏器，通过ipRGCs接收视网膜输入来调节昼夜节律，而情绪调节的光信号输入则发生在另一个脑区。

Bingo. I mean, because we're talking about the whole system, eventually when you start having the other problems, you also develop sleep problems, but you're absolutely right. And in fact, now research from Diego Fernandez in the lab have found that now we know that they actually require different brain regions. So we don't only have a theory, we don't only have a light environment that showed they can be dissociated, we know that they use completely different brain regions. So the SCN that I told you about earlier, the place where the central pacemaker is the one that receives direct input from the retina through the IPRGCs to adjust your circadian clock is not the area that receives the light input for mood regulation.

这是个完全不同的脑区。令人惊叹的是，该区域同样直接接收ipRGCs的输入，但投射到已知调控情绪的脑区，包括腹内侧前额叶皮层——这个与人类抑郁症相关、被研究多年的区域。如此进化高级的前额叶皮层（人类的执行脑区）竟会接收这些古老感光细胞的输入，这个偶然发现令我们震惊不已。

It's a completely different brain region. And what's really amazing, this region also receives direct input from the IPRGCs, but projects to areas in the brain that are known to regulate mood, including the ventral medial prefrontal cortex, which has been studied for many years to be impacted in a human depression. So just by this amazing serendipity to find that a region that is so deep in the advanced brain, like the prefrontal cortex is your executive brain, one of the most elaborated in humans. To see that they receive input from these ancient photoreceptor was stunning to us.

这项发现如何指导你或他人的日常行为规范？

How does that finding inform daily protocols for you or for other people?

这正是我们提出三重模型的原因。作为昼夜节律生物学家，我曾只考虑通过生物钟影响行为的光线；睡眠生物学家仅关注稳态驱力对睡眠行为的影响；而研究视觉光感的学者只考虑环境输入。但当三者结合时，这个令人震撼的三重模型就显现出非凡意义——生物体不愿依赖单一组件，若能整合这三者，就能形成完美适应的精妙系统。

So that's why we came up with the tripartite model, because as a circadian biologist, I only thought of light through the circadian clock affecting behavior. As a sleep biologist, they only thought of the homeostatic drive affecting sleep, affecting behavior. And for people who study light for vision and other fungi, they thought only of the environmental input. But now if you put them all together, you get with this tripartite model where it's really mind boggling and it makes so much sense. The organism doesn't want to depend on a single component, but if you could incorporate these three together, you could have a beautiful system that is well adapted.

那么让我来告诉你睡眠-觉醒周期，好吗？我们知道有一种稳态驱动力影响睡眠。关于这一点我们已经有过精彩的讨论。

So let me tell you the sleep wake cycle, right? So we know there is a homeostatic drive to affect sleep. We've had beautiful talks about that.

基本上就是你清醒的时间越长，你就越想

Which is basically the longer you're awake, the more you want to be

睡觉。这就是你的稳态驱动力。我们讨论过昼夜节律对睡眠的影响，以及光暗周期影响昼夜节律系统，最终影响睡眠的事实。这两个因素已被充分理解。现在，第三个因素是你直接的光线或环境输入。

asleep. So that's your homeostatic drive. We've talked about the circadian influence of sleep and the fact that light dark cycle affect the circadian system, which eventually affects sleep. So these two components are well understood. Now, the third factor is your direct light or environmental input.

你承受的压力大小、接收的光线量也会极大影响睡眠。所以即使你有良好的昼夜节律和稳态驱动力，如果你在一天中错误的时间接收光线，或者处于压力思考状态，你的睡眠就会受到影响。因此必须综合考虑这三个因素才能拥有良好的睡眠-觉醒周期。

How much stress, how much light you get from there also can highly impact sleep. So even if you have a good circadian and homeostatic drive, if you're getting light at the wrong time of the day, or if you're being stressed and thinking, then your sleep is going to suffer. So you have to think of the three together to have a beautiful sleep wake cycle.

我们来谈谈食物、进食和食欲。你还有另一项——是的，我非常钦佩你在这方面的成就——另一项惊人发现表明光线对食欲和进食行为有直接影响。那么对于想调整饮食行为的人，应该如何利用光线来调节进食行为呢？

Let's talk about food and eating and appetite. You had yet another, yes, I greatly admire your success in this way, yet another incredible discovery showing that there are direct, excuse me, effects of light on appetite and feeding behavior. So for somebody who's interested in affecting their eating behavior, how should they use light in order to adjust their eating behavior?

对。既然我已经告诉你昼夜节律钟不同输入信号间的相互作用，就像工程师那样思考，最佳方案是什么？最佳方案是明确每日进餐时间、适宜的光照时间，以及你体内昼夜节律钟的状态，对吧？如果你在每天固定时间进食，这又是一个告诉身体和生物钟当前时段的重要信号。如果每天在正确时间吃午餐并接受充足光照，就有两个系统在同步你的生物钟，它会运作得更好。

Right. So now that I've told you about all these interaction between the different inputs to the circadian clock, just you think about it as an engineer, what would be the best thing? The best thing is to know when your food times happen in the day, when should you get light, and when is your circadian clock in your system, right? So if you eat at very specific times of the day, that's another signal that is telling your body, your clock, you're in a certain time of the day. So if you're having lunch at the correct time every day and you're getting bright light, now you have two systems that are informing your clock, Your clock is going to be better.

所以要规律进餐。与昼夜节律匹配的规律用餐时间。实际上当我开始这样做时——它帮助我成功减重——就是让自己处于恰当的光暗周期中，并固定进食时间。效果令人惊叹。

So regular mealtimes. Regular mean times that fit your circadian clock. So, and in fact, if you do that, when I started doing this and it helped me lose weight, is that I'm exposing myself to the right amount of light dark cycle. I'm eating at regular time. It is amazing.

你不会感到饥饿。假设你中午12点吃饭，11:45时完全不会饿，然后饥饿感突然涌现。这显然不是能量问题，因为变化不可能如此剧烈。

You will be not hungry. Let's say you eat at noon, you will not feel any hunger at 11:45, and then all of a sudden the hunger jumps. This is clearly not an energy issue because it could not be that drastic.

没错，进食欲望主要由这些信号驱动，这些激素信号与——完全正确——睡眠觉醒周期紧密同步，同时也与光线相关。那么你本人或你建议人们保持多严格的用餐规律？精确到分钟吗？

Right, no, the desire to eat is mainly driven by these cues, these hormone cues that are very exquisitely timed to- Exactly. Sleep wake cycle, but also to light. Exactly. How regular are you, or do you recommend people be about mealtimes? Are we talking about down to the minute?

绝对严格。好吧，比如我通常12点吃午餐，允许误差是？半小时。好的。那就是在11:30到12:30之间用餐。

Absolutely All right, plus or So twelve noon is my normal lunch, let's say, plus or minus? Half an hour. Okay. Yeah. So eat around between 11:30 and 12:30.

如果那是时间问题，还取决于你是否也吃多餐。记住，一日三餐是某人决定的，我不知道为什么。

If that's the time, and it depends if you also do multiple meals. Remember, three meals, that's a decision that somebody came up with, I don't know why.

如今人们都这么做，我想是的。考虑到我们的朋友萨钦对吧。还有PANDAS

Nowadays, people are doing that, I think. Yeah. Given our friends Sachin Right. And PANDAS

我是说，你可以吃两餐，

I mean, so you could have two meals,

你可以在活动时间内分散进食多餐。有些人早上不饿，可能是晚作息的人，这种情况下晚些进食效果更好

you could have very multiples meals that are distributed across your active time. Some people are not hungry early in the day, they might be late shifted people, which case eating later in the day will work well

只要他们不在清晨进食就会有效。

for Will work as long as they don't eat early in the morning.

关键是，你必须配合你的作息时间，你的活动时间表。我们真正讨论的是找到你理想的睡眠时间表。没错。以及找到理想的进食时间表。

That's just, you have to work with your schedule, with your active schedule. What we're talking about really is finding your ideal sleep schedule. Exactly. And finding your ideal eating schedule.

正是如此。

Exactly.

并理解这两者如何相互影响。

And understanding how those two things interact.

正如你所说，发现它们将帮助你理解它们如何互动，因为我们从三方模型知道它们都是相互关联的。而对每个人来说，这种关联方式都不同。

And you know, the nice thing, as you said, finding them out is going to help you to understand how they interact because we know from the tripartite model that they are all interconnected. And for each person, they're going to be interconnected differently.

令我震惊的是，在所有动物中，除了人类，如果它们偏离适当的光照和昼夜周期太多，基本上就不会交配，或者死亡，或者被淘汰。但在人类中，我们能够在一定程度上超越这一点。但我们遭受的痛苦似乎表现为肥胖、代谢综合征、伴随其他综合征的生殖综合征、内分泌综合征，以及情绪和抑郁障碍。在国家或实验室层面，是否有任何你了解的努力试图利用光来改善情绪和心理健康？

It's striking to me that in all animals, besides humans, if they deviate too much from the appropriate exposure to light and light dark cycle, they essentially don't mate and or die and or get killed off. But in humans, we are able to override that, at least to some extent. But the ways in which we suffer appear to be things like obesity, metabolic syndromes, reproductive syndromes that accompany the other syndromes, endocrine syndromes, and mood and depressive disorders. Is there any effort at the level of the nationally or laboratories that you're aware of to try and use light in order to improve mood and mental health?

说实话，这是我的情绪秀。我认为人们应该关注的是，与其吃药，不如接受光照。当然，吃药也很重要。我只是想说，现在借助LED灯的惊人进步、光谱调节和强度控制，我们有机会通过简单的改变来改善睡眠觉醒周期、提高效率。实际上，你能完成更多事情，因为正如我们讨论过的，当这些都被打乱时，你需要更多睡眠，但睡眠却是碎片化的。

I mean, honestly, this is my mood show. This is the thing that I think people, because it's, I say, don't take a pill, take a photon. I mean, take pills, it's important. I'm just making it that really we have an opportunity right now with the incredible advances of LED lights, of changing spectra of light, of regulating intensities. And just for simple changes, you could really improve sleep wake cycle, productivity, and still you could actually get more done because as we've talked about, when you have all these messed up, now you have to sleep more, but your sleep is fragmented.

这不好

It's not

而且你无法集中注意力

very good. And you can't focus

当你需要警觉性却没有时，你无法集中精力。所以拥有这些条件实际上能让你最终做得更多而非更少。这正是最令人兴奋的部分。

when And you you can't need do focus when you don't have alertness when you need the alertness. So having all these could allow you to do even more actually at the end than less. And that's the exciting part of it.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。AG1是一种含有维生素、矿物质、益生菌的饮品，还包括益生元和适应原。如大家所知，我服用AG1已超过十三年。早在2012年，远在我拥有播客之前就发现了它，并坚持每日饮用至今。十三年来，AG1始终保持着原始风味。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than thirteen years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast and I've been drinking it every day since. For the past thirteen years, AG1 has been the same original flavor.

他们更新了配方，但风味始终如一。现在AG1首次推出三种新口味：浆果、柑橘和热带风味。所有口味都采用最高品质原料，精确配比，共同支持肠道微生物群、免疫健康，并提供更好能量等。现在你可以选择最喜欢的AG1风味。我一直钟爱原味，特别是加水并挤点柠檬或青柠汁的喝法——这基本是我十三年的习惯。

They've updated the formulation, but the flavor has always remained the same. And now for the first time, AG1 is available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical. All the flavors include the highest quality ingredients in exactly the right doses to together provide support for your gut microbiome, support for your immune health and support for better energy and more. So now you can find the flavor of AG1 that you like the most. Well, I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially when I mix it with water and a little bit of lemon or lime juice, that's how I've been doing it for basically thirteen years.

现在我特别喜爱新出的浆果味。它口感极佳，无需添加柠檬汁，直接与水混合即可。若想尝试AG1及新口味，请访问drinkag1.com/huberman获取特别优惠。目前AG1正赠送欢迎套装，含五份免费旅行装和一瓶维生素D3 K2。

Now I really enjoy the new berry flavor in particular. It tastes great and I don't have to add any lemon or lime juice. I just mix it up with water. If you'd like to try AG1 and these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.comhuberman to claim a special offer. Right now, AG one is giving away an AG one welcome kit that includes five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D three k two.

重申：访问drinkag1.com/huberman领取含五份旅行装和维生素D3 K2的特别欢迎套装。现在聊聊时差问题。人们快速调整作息的2-3个方法是什么？比如开学季、新工作、新生儿或幼犬等情况，最快调整生物钟的方式是什么？

Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit of five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D three k two. Let's talk about jet lag. What are the two or three things that people can do to adjust their schedule quickly? Like let's say fall classes are starting, you start a new job or you have a baby or a puppy or whatever, what is the best way to shift the clock quickly?

很简单，就像昨天讨论的。想象你在没有工业照明的户外。如果你的身体认为处于傍晚，却看到强光，这意味着什么？‘等等，现在还不是傍晚，仍是下午早些时候’。所以你需要推迟生物钟回到下午晚些时段。

So it's very simple as we've talked yesterday. So imagine you're in the outside with no industrial light. If your body thinks you're in early evening and you see a bright light, what does this tell you? Oh, wait, this is not early evening yet, it's still early afternoon or late afternoon. So I have to delay my clock to go back to late afternoon.

因此傍晚早些时候接触光线会延迟你的生物钟。

So if you get light early in the evening, it delays your clock.

是什么让你想晚些睡觉？是的，这会延迟你的生物钟。所以在夜晚更晚的时候，实际上在人类身上，你的体温会在夜晚更晚时达到一年中的低点。之后，光线开始推进你的生物钟。如果我理解正确的话，你是说如果你的典型起床时间是早上7点，那么你的体温最低点可能出现在凌晨5点左右。

What does Meaning that makes you want to go to sleep later? Yes, it delays your clock. So later in the night, later in your night, and actually it just happens that in humans, you get a temperature in a year later in the night, low temperature in your body. After that, lights start advancing your clock. If I understand correctly, what you're saying is if your typical wake up time is say 7AM, then your low point in temperature probably occurs somewhere around 5AM.

是的。如果你在那时接触光线，它基本上会推进你的生物钟。

Yeah. And if you view light right around then, it's going to essentially advance your clock.

没错，因为那时你的身体会认为，哦，现在是7点了，所以把你的生物钟提前一到两个小时。

Yeah, because then your body thinks, Oh, it's 07:00, so advance your clock by one to two hours.

但如果我在凌晨3点接触光线，那可能会延迟我的生物钟？是的。好的。那么假设我适应了一个新的作息时间，我想调整到一个新的作息。

But if I were to view light, say at 3AM, then it would probably delay my clock? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, and then let's say I land in a new schedule, I want to adjust to a new schedule.

假设我在出发前没有做任何关于光线接触的安排，我没有预料到这次旅行。突然我就在一个新的作息时间了，对吧？我听说帮助调整生物钟并避免胃肠道问题的方法之一是按照当地时间进食，开始像当地人一样生活，尽管你的昼夜节律钟需要一点时间来完全适应。

Let's say I didn't manage to do anything with my light viewing before I went in, I didn't anticipate the trip. Suddenly I'm on a new schedule, okay? I was told that one of the ways to help shift the clock and to avoid gastrointestinal issues is to eat on the local schedule, to start basically behaving like a local, even though your circadian clock will take a little bit of time to Absolutely. Catch

但你必须记住光线的影响，对吧？既然我们已经简单地解释过了，让我们举一个非常简单的例子，纽约到意大利。这是一个简单的例子。纽约时间，意大利时间，相差六小时，对吧？

But you have to remember the light, right? So let's now that we explained it very simply, let's take a very simple example, right? New York to Italy. That's a simple example. New York time, Italy time, six hour difference, right?

假设你晚上从纽约起飞，早上8点到达意大利。按照纽约时间现在是几点？尽管你到达了——

So let's say you fly from New York at night, you reach Italy at 08:00 in the morning. What is the time in your New York time? Although you reach-

六小时前。

Six hours back.

六小时前。是凌晨2点。所以当你到达意大利时，你要像躲避瘟疫一样避免光线。是的，你

Six hours back. It's 2AM. So when you land Italy, you want to avoid light like the plague. Yeah, you

可以吃东西，但你真的不想接触光线。对，因为否则它会延迟你的生物钟。

could eat, but you really don't want to get a light. Right, because otherwise it's going to delay you.

这会让你生物钟延迟。它不会送你去意大利，而是把你送回加利福尼亚。

It's going to delay you. It's going to send you to California instead of sending you to Italy.

没错，萨姆说的非常关键。虽然早晨接触强光在家时确实有益，但当你跨时区旅行时，必须考虑身体认为你所在的位置。所以如果你刚乘飞机从纽约到意大利，看着意大利的日出，却没有通过提前几天早起做好准备——

Right, what Sam is saying is so crucial. Just because getting bright light in your eyes early in the day is really beneficial when you're at home, when you travel to a new time zone, you have to take into account where your body thinks you are. So if you're looking at the Italian sunrise, having just flown from New York to Italy, and you didn't prepare for that trip by waking up a little bit earlier in anticipation-

需要好几天适应，是的。而你

Multiple days, yeah. And you

在意大利时间早上六七点接触光线，欣赏美丽的意大利日出时，你的生物钟会被延迟。你本质上会把自己推回加利福尼亚的时间，尽管人还在意大利。你的生理状态会退回加州时区，结果会在意大利的半夜醒来，痛苦不堪。

view light at six or 7AM Italian time, beautiful Italian sunrise, you are going to delay your clock. You're going to basically throw yourself back to California, but you are in Italy. You're going to throw your biology back to California, and you are going to up in the middle of the Italian night and you're going to be miserable.

在调整身体时钟时避免接收错误的光线信息非常重要，否则会把你推向相反方向，完全正确。

It's very important to avoid getting the wrong light information when you're trying to adjust your body, because otherwise it shifts you to the other side, absolutely right.

你是那种精力特别充沛的人。我认为你能如此专注地高强度工作，并在多个领域达到惊人水平，很大程度上是因为你深思熟虑这些问题——什么时候最适合专注，什么时候最适合锻炼，这个「时机」才是关键。很多人总觉得自己身体内部出了问题，但我非常认同你的观点：

You are one of these people that has such vigor. I think a lot of your ability to work hard and focus and really do so many things at an impressive level is because you think about these issues and you think about when you're going to be optimal for focus, when you're going to be optimal for exercise, and the when is the key. And I think a lot of people live in the landscape of feeling like there's something broken inside them. I really agree with you that

我认为我能持续做到这些的部分原因，就是我会认真思考并确保所有环节协调一致。这确实对我帮助很大——我睡眠不受困扰，起床没有痛苦，从不用闹钟叫醒。整个系统如此协调，自然运转良好。很多

I think part of the reason I'm continuing to be able to do this, that I really think about it and I make sure that I keep everything aligned. And that actually helps me a lot. Like I don't suffer in sleep, I don't suffer in waking up, I never use a timer to wake up. System is so aligned, it works. A lot

时候人们会问：为什么我入睡容易，但凌晨三四点醒来就再也睡不着？有没有可能这些人本应该晚上八点就寝？

of times people will say, How come I go to sleep, I fall asleep fine, but then I wake up at three or four in the morning and can't fall back asleep? Is it possible that those people were supposed to go to bed at 8PM?

是的，有可能。也可能他们的生物钟完全错乱，夜间获得了足够的睡眠时间，结果白天反而昏昏欲睡。这些都是可能的组合情况。

Yeah, I mean, it is possible, or it's possible that their clock is completely misaligned that they are getting maybe enough time at night when they are supposed, and then they possibly feel so sleepy in the day. So all these are possible combination.

这个有趣的观点我从未考虑过——他们以为的睡眠，其实因为身体与昼夜节律严重脱节，本质上只是打了个盹。

Well, that's an interesting idea I hadn't considered. That what they think is their sleep, their body is so out of whack with the light dark cycle that it's actually a nap.

小憩或睡眠较浅的阶段。我是说，当你跨越时区旅行尚未适应时就会看到这种情况。你入睡很顺利，但两小时后却完全清醒了，就两小时。如果你平时很疲惫且这是你的常规睡眠，你绝不可能——

A nap or the weaker part of the sleep. I mean, you see this when you travel to different time zones before you adjust. You go to sleep really well, but two hours later, you're fully up, two hours. If you were so tired and this is your regular sleep, there's no way you're going

在两小时后醒来。我们稍微谈谈季节性影响。人类还有哪些已知的季节性效应？

to wake up in two hours. Let's talk about seasonality a little bit. Are there other effects of seasonality on humans that we are aware of?

说实话，我认为在斯堪的纳维亚半岛能看得最明显。比如和当地居民交谈时，他们确实会有季节性抑郁。季节性抑郁是一方面，但当你深入询问时，他们会告诉你冬天几乎难以起床，精力严重不足。甚至在抑郁症状出现前，没有季节性抑郁的人也会说我们的能量水平更低，工作状态完全不同。而夏天大多数人其实睡得很少。

Honestly, you could see it perfectly, I think, in Scandinavia. Mean, you could talk to people who live in Sure, they get seasonal depression. Seasonal depression is one, but actually when you start asking them questions, they tell you like in the winter, they barely could wake up, they barely have the energy. Before even depression, even people who don't get seasonal depression, they'll tell you our energy level is lower, our ability to go to work is not the same. And in the summer, most people actually sleep very little.

他们会说我们真的感觉像躁狂发作，充满能量——不是负面意义上的，是种有趣的状态，对吧？但要想睡觉就得拉上遮光帘。这种情况下你才能真正体会到人类的季节性特征。我觉得我们某种程度上破坏了这种节律，因为接触自然光太少，到处都是人造光源。

They tell you we really can, we feel like we're manic, we have all this energy, and not in a negative way in a funny way, right? I mean, but if you want to sleep, we have to put this curtain. I think in these situations, you could really appreciate the seasonality of humans. I think we kind of destroyed our seasonality because we don't get exposed to that much natural light. We have all this artificial light.

但说实话，如果他们遵循你的建议，将会发生的变化之一就是开始体验季节差异，因为他们现在会以不同方式接触阳光。如果夏天早晨出门，阳光会强烈得多。这就是我反对夏令时的原因——我知道人们会觉得我有偏见，因为我认为——

But I think honestly, one of the things that is going to happen if they follow your recommendation, this is going to cause them to also experience some changes across the season because now they're to see the sun differently. If you're going to go out in the morning, in the summer, you're going to get a much brighter That's why I don't like the change in time. I know people think, Oh, because you're biased, Because I think-

等等，你刚才说的调整是指夏令时吗？

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry, the change now. Are you talking about daylight savings?

夏令时。这个主意糟透了，它打乱了你的生理节律。因为如果保持原有节律，身体就能感知完整的季节性变化。我看待这个问题的角度与众不同。安德鲁，想象这种情况：你原本获得光照的时间很规律，突然因为夏令时推迟一小时，即便在夏天，如果你的身体还没适应，就会困惑：发生了什么？

Daylight saving. It's such a bad idea because it disrupts that rhythm that you're having. Because I think your body, if you keep that rhythm, you will see the whole seasonality. And I look at it from a different aspect than other people. If you think about it, Andrew, there is a situation where you're getting light perfectly well, and then all of a sudden they delay it by one hour because, and then even though it's the summer, your body now, if you're still not adjusting, think, Oh, wait, what happened?

这到底是怎么回事？

What kind of happened?

你提到这点我很高兴，因为我以前总觉得：不就一小时嘛？春季调快一小时，秋季调回来。但这正呼应了我们开头的讨论——远不止一小时那么简单。

Well, I'm glad you're bringing this up because I always thought, you know, what's the big deal? One hour, right? One hour shift, spring It's forward so hard fall adjust to one hour act. But this goes back to the beginning of our discussion. It's not just one hour.

没错。表面是一天调整一小时，但会对生物钟产生累积效应，影响你三元模型中的三个要素：稳态睡眠压力、昼夜节律和光暴露的直接作用。

Right. Because it's one hour across that one day, but there's this cumulative effect on the clock and these three elements of your tripartite model, right? Exactly. The homeostatic sleep and the light Exactly. Direct effects

当时间调整如此接近时，有时很难完美适应，因为我们社会本就睡眠不足，再这样一调整，所有问题累积起来却毫无益处。我真不明白他们为何这么做，这完全说不通。

on And when it's so close, it's sometimes hard to figure out how to adjust it perfectly because we're already sleep deprived in our society, and then you shift it by, so it just, it all accumulates and it has no benefit. I just don't understand why they do this. It makes no sense.

我认为他们这样做是因为不理解生物规律。

Well, I think that the reason they do it is because they don't understand the biology.

正是如此。

Exactly.

因为一小时看似微不足道，但你不明白这一小时调整的连锁反应。根据你所说的，很明显这一小时偏移正让你与自然光暗周期背道而驰。

Because one hour seems trivial, you understand the repercussions of that one hour shift. What's also clear now based on what you're saying is that that one hour shift is taking you out of alignment with the natural light dark cycle in exactly the wrong direction.

这迫使人们作息更晚。没错，在夏天，光照本就会让人晚睡。

It's pushing people to get even later. Yeah. In the summer, when light is going to push you later anyway.

这确实加剧了已有的问题。Samur，这次关于光线重要性的探讨太精彩了。我相信人们会开始思考如何改变与光的关系，以此作为健康生活的基石。能说说大家在哪里可以找到你吗？你的实验室是在国家心理健康研究所吧？

It's really compounding the problem that already exists. Samur, this has been an amazing march through the importance of light. I'm certain that people are going to start thinking about how to change their relationship with light as a way to anchor everything that they do and that's important to their health. Let's talk a little bit about where people can find you. Your laboratory is at the National Institutes of Mental Health.

他是时间生物学部门负责人，这些我前面都提到过。但你在推特和Instagram上也很活跃对吧？

He is head of the chronobiology unit, all these things that I've mentioned earlier. But you are active on Twitter and Instagram. Right.

你的推特账号是什么？是samurhattar，Instagram应该也一样。

So what is your Twitter handle? It's samurhattar, and I think the same for Instagram.

大家一定要在推特上关注他，我相信他会很乐意回答关于时间生物学的各种问题。

Definitely give him a follow there and on Twitter, and I'm sure that he'll be happy to answer questions and entertain any and all discussions about chronobiology.

当然，还有光线问题，

Absolutely, yep, and light,

是的，非常好，谢谢你，萨穆尔。

yeah. Great, thank you, Samur.

太棒了，谢谢你，安库尔。

Awesome, thank you, Ankur.