核心要点：利用睡眠提升学习、记忆与情绪状态 | 吉娜·波伊博士

欢迎收听《Huberman Lab 精华版》，我们将回顾往期节目，为你带来最有效、最实用的科学工具，助力心理健康、身体健康和表现提升。

Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

接下来，是我与吉娜·波博士的对话。

And now for my discussion with Doctor.

吉娜·波。

Gina Poe.

博士。

Doctor.

吉娜·波博士，欢迎你。

Gina Poe, welcome.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我一直非常期待这次对话。

I've really been looking forward to this conversation.

我知道很多人都会很兴奋地了解你在睡眠、问题解决、创造力以及其他一些重要话题上的研究。

I know that many people are going to be excited to learn about your work as it relates to sleep, as it relates to problem solving, creativity, and a number of other important topics.

首先，我希望你能给我们讲讲睡眠这个东西，我们都很熟悉，但真正理解它的人却很少。

To start things off, I would love for you to educate us a bit about this thing that we are all familiar with and yet very few of us understand, which is sleep.

你能描述一下睡眠存在的各个阶段吗？

Could you describe the various phases of sleep that exist?

它们有什么区别？

What distinguish them?

也许可以结合一个完美的夜晚睡眠应该是什么样的来谈谈。

And perhaps frame this within the context of what would a perfect night's sleep look like?

好的，睡眠和清醒状态真的很不一样，事实上，到目前为止，我们想出的任何清醒状态都无法替代睡眠。

All right, so sleep is really different from wakefulness, and in fact, can't be replaced by any state of wakefulness that we've been able to come up with so far.

我们的大脑化学状态完全不同，在睡眠的不同阶段中，非快速眼动和快速眼动是睡眠的两大主要状态。

Our brain chemistry is completely different, and in the different stages of sleep, which there are non REM and REM are the two major states of sleep.

这两种状态彼此之间也完全不同。

Those two states are entirely different from one another too.

而且即使在非快速眼动睡眠中，也还有三个阶段。

And even within non REM, there are three states.

第一阶段，就是你刚入睡时进入的状态。

Stage one, which is what you slip into when you're first falling asleep.

就是打瞌睡。

It's dozing.

大脑里有一种有趣的节律在活动。

There's an interesting rhythm that goes on in the brain.

是一种快速的伽马节律。

It's a fast gamma rhythm.

然后是第二阶段，这个阶段非常有意思。

And then there's stage two, which is a really cool state.

我们以前不太重视睡眠研究者，因为第二阶段被认为是清醒和深度第三阶段慢波睡眠之间的过渡状态，而第三阶段是最显著不同的，那时大脑中会有大的慢波扫过。

We used to ignore sleep researchers because it was a transient state between wakefulness and the deep stage three slow wave sleep, which is the most impressively different, which is when big slow waves sweep through our brain.

现在我们意识到，这个阶段能清洁我们的大脑。

And now we realize that it cleans our brain.

那些大慢波的一个重要作用就是清洁我们的大脑，并且做其他非常重要的事情，让我们从一天的清醒中恢复过来。

One of the things that those big slow waves do is cleans our brain and does other really important things to restore us from a day of wakefulness.

然后是快速眼动睡眠，这是最受欢迎的，因为那是我们做梦最活跃的阶段。

And then REM sleep, which is the most popular because that's where we have the most active dreams.

如果你把一个人从快速眼动睡眠中叫醒，他们几乎总是会报告说梦到了非常奇怪的东西。

When you wake up someone out of REM sleep, they'll almost always report having dreamed something really bizarre.

这就是所谓的快速眼动睡眠，也就是快速眼球运动睡眠。

That's called REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep.

所以这就是人类睡眠的四种状态。

So those are the four states of sleep, of human sleep.

我们大约每九十分钟循环一次。

And we cycle through them every ninety minutes or so.

然后我们又重新开始。

And then we start over again.

一个完美的夜晚，我们大约会有五次这样的循环，四次或五次，差不多这样。

And we have about five of those per night for a perfect night's sleep, four or five, something like that.

所以一个完美的睡眠是七个半小时到八个小时。

So a perfect night's sleep is seven and a half, eight hours.

那浅睡阶段呢？我们可能会做一个梦，梦里有种在动的感觉，或者突然惊醒。

And what about the sleep where we are lightly asleep and we might have a dream that has us somehow thinking about movement or that we jolt ourselves awake.

这种情况通常发生在夜晚的前半段。

That often happens early in the night,

对，对，那是睡眠的第一阶段和第二阶段。

Yeah, yeah, that's the first stage, stage one and stage two of sleep.

第二阶段其实很有意思，因为那里有睡眠纺锤波和K复合波。

And stage two of sleep is really cool because that has something called sleep spindles and K complexes.

睡眠纺锤波是一种频率在10到15赫兹的脑电活动。

And what sleep spindles are are a little of activity that's 10 to 15 hertz in frequency.

它是丘脑和大脑皮层之间的交流。

It's a conversation between the thalamus and the cortex.

丘脑是通往意识的门户，而新皮层处理我们所有的认知活动。

Thalamus is the gateway to consciousness and the neocortex processes all our cognition.

如果你从那个状态醒来，你通常会报告一个梦，就像幻觉式的梦。

And if you wake up out of that state, you will often report a dream, like a hallucination style dream.

它不会像快速眼动睡眠那样有很长的梦境描述，但会是一种幻觉状态。

It won't be a long dream report like you have out of REM sleep, but it will be some hallucination state.

它们和深夜或接近早晨时的睡眠和做梦模式有很大不同吗？

Are they quite different than the patterns of sleep and dreaming that occur later in the night or toward morning?

有证据表明，睡眠的前四个小时对记忆处理非常重要。

There is some evidence that the first four hours of sleep are very important for memory processing.

事实上，如果你当天学到了新东西，或者经历了新的感觉运动体验，那么你早期的睡眠梦境会比后期的睡眠梦境更多地融入这种体验。

And in fact, if you've learned something new that day or have experienced a new sensory motor experience, then your early sleep dreams will incorporate that experience much more than the later sleep dreams.

后来，随着记忆从早期结构（即位于颞叶深处的海马体）以分布式方式巩固到皮层，记忆似乎从海马体转移到皮层。

Later, as that memory gets consolidated from the early structures, which are the hippocampus deep in the temporal lobe to the cortex in a distributed fashion, that memory seems to move from that hippocampus to the cortex.

而且，融入这种记忆的梦境也会在夜晚更晚的时候出现。

And also the dreams that incorporate that memory also move later in the night.

所以，有一个很棒的研究，是西达尔塔·里贝罗做的，他研究了大鼠在一整天睡眠期间记忆从海马体到皮层的巩固过程，因为大鼠是在白天睡觉的。

So there was a great study by Siddhartha Ribero who studied the consolidation of memories from the hippocampus to the cortex in a rat across the period of a full day's sleep because rats sleep in the daytime.

他发现，每一次随后的快速眼动睡眠阶段，都会把那段记忆从海马体转移到第一个投射区域，然后是第二个区域，再然后是第三个区域。

And he found that each subsequent REM sleep period moved that memory from the hippocampus to the first area that projects to it, and then the second area, and then the third area.

你可以看到记忆在整个睡眠过程中不断移动。

And you can see the memory moving throughout the sleep.

睡眠的不同阶段与多种不同的激素有关。

There's a number of different hormones associated with the different stages of sleep.

我们知道褪黑素是一种激素，

We know that melatonin is a hormone

夜间分泌的。

Of nighttime.

夜间分泌的，让我们感到困倦。

Of nighttime that makes us sleepy.

那生长激素的释放呢？

What about growth hormone release?

它在睡眠中是什么时候发生的？

When does that occur during sleep?

生长激素的释放其实全天都在进行，但第一个睡眠周期里的深度慢波睡眠阶段，会迎来一次大量的生长激素释放，而且男女都一样。

So growth hormone release happens all day long and all night long, but the deep slow wave sleep that you get the very first sleep cycle is when you get a big bolus of growth hormone release, and in men and women equally.

如果你错过了第一个深度慢波睡眠阶段，那你也错过了那次大量的生长激素释放。

And if you miss that first deep, slow wave sleep period, you also miss that big bolus of growth hormone release.

虽然一整天下来，总的生长激素释放量可能差不多，但内分泌科医生会告诉你，一次性大量释放和一点点慢慢释放，效果是完全不同的。

And you might get ultimately across the day just as much overall growth hormone release, But endocrinologists will tell you that big boluses do different things than a little bit eked out over time.

还有，这个阶段也是蛋白质合成的高峰期。

There's also a big push to synthesize proteins.

所以，像大脑里构建记忆所需的蛋白质合成，就发生在第一个睡眠周期里。

So that's when the protein synthesis part that builds memories, for example, in our brain happens in that first cycle of sleep.

所以千万别错过这个阶段，尤其是你刚学了很重要的东西，需要更多突触空间来编码的时候。

So you don't wanna miss that, especially if you've learned something really big and needs more synaptic space to encode it.

那怎么会有人错过前90分钟的睡眠呢？

How would somebody miss that first 90 Sleep

就是自己剥夺睡眠呗。

depriving themselves.

那假设我平时十点睡觉。

So So let's say I normally go to sleep at ten p.

对。

M.

然后

And

从十点到十一点半就是第一个睡眠阶段，那时候会释放大量的生长激素。

then from ten to 11:30 would be this first phase of sleep, and that's when the big bolus of growth hormone would be released.

那如果我改到十一点半或者午夜才睡，是不是就错过了第一个睡眠阶段？

Does that mean that if I go to sleep instead at 11:30 or midnight that I miss that first phase of sleep?

是的。

Yeah.

为什么不是简单地把第一个睡眠阶段往后推呢？

Why is it not the case that I get that first phase of sleep just simply starting later?

我们身体里的每个细胞都有一个生物钟，所有这些昼夜节律时钟都是同步的。

Every cell in our body has a clock, and all of those circadian clocks are synchronized.

所以我们的细胞已经准备好，在特定时间对生长激素的释放做出反应。

And so our cells are ready to respond to that growth hormone release at a particular time.

而且如果错过了，这也和褪黑素的时间有关。所以如果你错过了，是的，你可能会得到一些生长激素的释放，但那时你的生物钟已经进入下一个阶段了。

And if we miss it, and it's a time in relation to melatonin also, So if you miss it, yeah, you might get some growth hormone release, but it's occurring at a time when your clock has already moved to the next phase.

所以这纯粹是生物钟的问题。

And so it's just a clock thing.

所以这意味着，我们除了要有固定的起床时间，也应该有固定的睡觉时间。

So what this means is that we should have fairly consistent bedtimes in addition to fairly consistent wake times.

是的，这是

Yes, Is that

完全正确。

exactly.

事实上，当我们年纪大了，衡量神经健康的一个最佳指标就是固定的睡觉时间。

And in fact, one of the best markers of good neurological health when we get older is consistent bedtimes.

我想快速休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商之一，LMNT。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.

LMNT是一种电解质饮料，含有你所需的一切，不含任何多余成分。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need, and nothing you don't.

也就是说，它含有适量的电解质——钠、镁和钾，但不含糖。

That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, in the correct amounts, but no sugar.

适当补水对大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。

Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.

即使是轻微的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。

Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.

摄入足够的电解质也很重要。

It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.

电解质——钠、镁和钾——对你身体所有细胞的功能至关重要，尤其是你的神经元，也就是神经细胞。

The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons, or your nerve cells.

将电解质溶解在水中饮用，可以很容易确保你获得足够的水分和电解质。

Drinking element dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you are getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.

为了确保我摄入足够的水分和电解质，我早上醒来时会将一包电解质溶解在约16到32盎司的水中，然后基本上在早晨第一件事就喝掉。

To make sure that I am getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of element in about sixteen-thirty two ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.

我在做任何体育锻炼的时候，也会喝溶解在水里的Element，尤其是在热天，我大量出汗，流失水分和电解质的时候。

I'll also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.

Element有很多口味，都很好喝。

Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors.

我喜欢树莓味，也喜欢柑橘味。

I love the raspberry, I love the citrus flavor.

现在，LMNT出了一款限量版的柠檬水口味，真的超级好喝。

Right now, LMNT has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.

我不想说我最喜欢哪一个，但这个柠檬水口味绝对能和我最喜欢的树莓或西瓜口味媲美。

I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my other one, which is raspberry or watermelon.

再说一次，我真的没法只选一个口味。

Again, I can't pick just one flavor.

我都喜欢。

I love them all.

如果你想试试LMNT，可以去drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意Element饮品，就能免费获得一份Element样品包。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman, spelleddrinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free Element sample pack with a purchase of any Element drink mix.

再说一遍，去 drinkelement.com/huberman 就能领取免费样品包。

Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

还有哪些因素会抑制生长激素的释放，或者影响第一阶段睡眠的其他方面？

What other things inhibit growth hormone release or other components of this first stage of sleep?

有没有可能我在睡前几小时或前一天做了一些事情，比如摄入咖啡因或酒精，即使我按时睡觉，也会让第一阶段睡眠效果变差？

Are there things that I perhaps do in the preceding hours or the preceding day, like ingest caffeine or alcohol that can make that first stage of sleep less effective, even if I'm going to sleep at the same time?

酒精肯定会有影响，因为酒精会抑制快速眼动睡眠，甚至还会抑制从第二阶段向快速眼动睡眠过渡时的睡眠纺锤波。

Alcohol definitely will do that because alcohol is a REM sleep suppressant, and it even suppresses some of that stage two transition to REM with those sleep spindles.

那些睡眠纺锤波，我们还没讨论它们的功能，但它们对把记忆转移到大脑皮层非常重要。

And those sleep spindles, we didn't talk about their function yet, but they're really important for moving memories to our cortex.

这是一个独特的时刻，海马体——就像我们大脑的临时存储——把记忆写入硬盘，也就是大脑皮层。

It's a unique time when our hippocampus, the sort of like the REM of our brains, writes it to a hard disk, which is the cortex.

这是它们连接在一起的独特时刻。

And it's a unique time when they're connected.

所以如果你不想错过这个，你就不想错过快速眼动睡眠，它也是记忆巩固过程的一部分。

So if you don't wanna miss that, you don't wanna miss REM sleep, which is also a part of the consolidation process.

睡前喝酒就会这样。

And alcohol before we go to sleep, we'll do that.

在酒精被代谢掉、排出体外之前，它都会对我们的睡眠产生不良影响。

Until we've metabolized alcohol and put it out of our bodies, it will affect our sleep badly.

那睡眠的第二个和第三个九十分钟周期呢？

What about the second and third ninety minute blocks of sleep?

它们有什么特别之处吗？

Is there anything that makes those unique?

除了它们是第二和第三个周期之外，还有什么特征？对，

What is their signature besides the fact that they come second and third Yeah, in the

越到后半夜，快速眼动睡眠就越多。

there's more and more REM sleep the later the night we get.

激素水平也会发生变化。

There's also a change in hormones.

你知道，生长激素和褪黑素的水平开始下降，但其他激素开始上升。

You know, the growth hormone and melatonin levels are starting to decline, but other hormones are picking up.

所以这是一个非常不同的阶段，你也不想在这个阶段亏待自己。

So it is a really different stage that you also don't want to shortchange yourself on.

而且我认为很多研究表明，这个阶段是睡眠中最可能产生创造力的时刻。

And I think that's the stage many studies are showing that those are the times in sleep when the most creativity can happen.

那时我们的梦境可以把新旧事物融合在一起，以新的方式组合起来。

That's when our dreams can incorporate and put together old and new things together into a new way.

我们的认知框架也是在那时建立起来的。

And our schema are built during that time.

所以那时你的大脑就像电脑一样，打开文件夹，比较文档，看看有没有相同之处。

So that's when your computer of your brain is opening folders and comparing documents, seeing if there is there anything the same.

这两份文档看起来非常相似，但有一点不同，然后它在概念上把它们联系起来。

These two documents look very much the same, but there's a little bit of difference and it link those conceptually.

所以这可能是创造力的起源之一：找到相关的事物，也许只是稍微有点关联，你能找到那个联系并加强它，如果它让你的认知框架变得有趣和独特的话。

So that that's probably one of the origins of creativity is finding things that are related, maybe just linked a little bit, and you can find that link and strengthen it if it makes your schema interesting and different.

很多人，包括我自己，往往会在半夜醒来一次去上厕所。

Many people, including myself, tend to wake up maybe once during the middle of the night to use the restroom.

我试过睡前少喝点水。

I've tried to drink less fluid before going to sleep.

我还听说，想上厕所的冲动不仅取决于喝水的总量，还取决于喝水的速度。

I've heard also the impulse to urinate is also dictated by how quickly you drink fluid, not just the total volume.

所以我改成晚上最后一杯水慢慢喝，这样好像有点用。

So I've switched to sipping fluids more slowly for my last beverage of the day, which seems to help.

半夜醒来这件事，有没有什么已知的坏处？

Is there any known detriment to this middle of the night waking?

没有。

No.

还是说，对某些人来说，这其实是睡眠结构里正常的一部分？

Or should we consider it a normal feature for some people's sleep architecture?

对，我觉得其实不用太担心。

Yeah, I think we shouldn't worry about it, actually.

睡眠的自我调节能力其实非常强。

Sleep is really incredibly well homeostatically regulated.

所以真的不用太担心你睡了多少，只要你不是故意用一些特别好玩、特别刺激的事情来剥夺自己的睡眠，因为那样对你的身体也是一种压力，而且会让你失去我们刚才说的那些好处。

And so really don't worry about how much you're sleeping, as long as you're not intentionally depriving yourself of sleep by doing something really rewarding and exciting, because even that is stressful to your body and deprives you of a lot of the things we're talking about.

晚上至少醒来一次去上厕所，这完全正常。

It's absolutely normal to wake up at least once in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom.

只要你能在合理的时间内重新入睡，哪怕要花一个小时，也不用担心。

And as long as you can get back to sleep in a reasonable amount of time, or even if it takes you an hour, don't worry about it.

只要你的生活方式允许你第二天早上或第二天晚上补回来，或者稍微早一点上床睡觉，就没问题。

As long as you have a life style that allows you to then make up that sleep either the next morning or the next night, or going to bed a little earlier.

那么，在夜晚的最后三分之一，或者说后半段，梦境和睡眠的结构有什么特别之处呢？

What is unique perhaps about the architecture of dreams and sleep in the, let's say the last third of the night or the second half of the night?

对，是的。

Right, yeah.

在后半夜，我们的快速眼动睡眠时间更长，这些被认为是最深的睡眠，尽管慢波睡眠，也就是大的慢波，也被认为是深度的。

In the second half of the night, we have longer REM sleep periods, and those are considered the deepest sleep, even though slow wave sleep, big slow wave is considered deep.

它确实是深的。

It is deep.

对，我们把慢波睡眠称为深度睡眠，把快速眼动睡眠称为快速眼动，但现在你告诉我快速眼动睡眠实际上是最深的，最深的。

Yeah, call slow wave sleep deep sleep and REM sleep rapid eye movement, but now you're telling me that REM sleep is actually the The deepest deepest,

之所以把慢波睡眠称为深度睡眠，是因为很难把人从那种状态中唤醒。

the reason why you call slow wave sleep deep sleep is because difficult to arouse people out of that state.

而且当你把他们从那种状态中唤醒时，他们通常很困惑，只想回去睡觉，而且很容易就能再睡着。

And when you do arouse them out of that state, they're most often confused and just want to go back into sleep and can go back pretty easily.

如果你把某人从快速眼动睡眠中唤醒，他们更有可能报告一些几乎像清醒状态的东西。

If you arouse someone out of REM sleep, they're more likely to report something that was really kind of almost like wakefulness.

那是如此生动。

It was so vivid.

也许快速眼动睡眠更深的一个原因是，尤其是在成年人和老年人中，那种深度的慢波睡眠会消失。

And maybe one of the reasons why REM sleep is deeper is, especially in adults and older people, that deep slow wave sleep goes away.

所以它不那么深，不那么强，慢波也不那么大，这可能是个问题，但我们不确定。

So it's not as deep, it's not as big, the slow waves aren't as large, which is probably problematic, but we are not sure.

因此，快速眼动睡眠就成了最深的阶段。

And so then REM sleep becomes the deepest stage.

我们在快速眼动睡眠期间是瘫痪的，是的，睡眠中。

We are paralyzed during REM Yes, sleep,

通常是瘫痪的，这其实是好事，因为那正是我们积极做梦的时候，有故事情节的梦，我们可能会伤到自己。

normally paralyzed, and that's really good because that's the time when we're actively dreaming storyline dreams and we could hurt ourselves.

我们实际上与外界隔绝了，无法对比如这张桌子、窗户或门做出反应。

We're actually really cut off from the outside world in terms of responding to, say, this table or a window or a door.

所以这和梦游不同，梦游发生在慢波睡眠阶段。

And so different from sleepwalking, which is out of slow wave sleep.

在慢波睡眠中，梦游是睡眠和清醒的混合状态。

And out of slow wave sleep, that sleepwalking is a mixture between sleep and wakefulness.

你可以在深度慢波睡眠中做一顿完整的饭，甚至开车。

You can cook a full meal, drive your car while you're in deep, slow wave sleep.

这很可怕，因为你永远不知道自己会做什么。

It's scary because you never know what you're going to do.

你没有自主控制能力。

You don't have voluntary control over it.

虽然你没有意识控制，但梦游时你其实可以安全地应对一些情况，甚至还能和人对话，虽然梦话可能没什么逻辑。

Have no conscious control over it, but you can actually safely navigate some situations in sleepwalking and actually have a conversation, although it may not make much sense when you're sleep talking.

在快速眼动睡眠中，你不会处理外界的信息。

In REM sleep, you're not processing the outside world.

相反，当你把梦境演出来的时候，你可能会做出一些危险的事，比如撞破玻璃窗，或者从楼梯上摔下来之类的。

And instead, when you're acting out your dreams, you could be doing things like walking through a plate glass window or falling off of, you know, down the stairs, things like that.

所以你真的希望肌肉在快速眼动睡眠期间处于不活动的状态。

So you really want your muscles to be inactivated during REM sleep.

否则你就会把梦演出来，真的伤到自己或者同床的伴侣。

Otherwise you will act out those dreams and really hurt yourself or your bed partner.

我听说，当人们接近早晨或者他们通常醒来的时间时，如果可能的话，在醒来之前完成一个九十分钟的睡眠周期很重要。

So as people start to approach morning or the time when they normally would wake up, I've heard that it's important to, if possible, complete one of these ninety minute cycles prior to waking up.

也就是说，如果你把闹钟设在夜间睡眠后期某个九十分钟周期的一半时，可能会导致醒来时昏昏沉沉的。

That is, if you set your alarm for halfway through one of these ninety minute cycles that come late in the night of sleep, that it can lead to rather groggy patterns of waking.

这叫做睡眠惯性，就是当我们从错误的睡眠阶段醒来时发生的。

It's called sleep inertia, when we wake up out of the wrong state.

我把它比作洗衣机的洗涤周期。

I liken it to a washing machine cycle.

这个九十分钟的周期就像洗衣机的洗涤周期。

This ninety minute cycle is like a washing machine cycle.

第一阶段是加水，对吧？

And the first part is to add water, right?

然后衣服就湿透了。

Then your clothes are soaking wet.

你不会想在洗衣机开着的时候打开它，把湿透的、满是肥皂的衣服穿上到处走吧。

You don't wanna open the washing machine and try and function, put them on and wear them around while they're soaking wet and full of soap.

所以你得等整个周期结束，才能——其实，还得再放进烘干机里，然后才能穿。

So you have to wait until the cycle is through before you can, well, actually, let's put it in the dryer too, before you wanna wear them.

所以你可以正常运作，只是需要一点时间让那些衣服——也就是大脑——干透，才能好好工作，但最好还是等整个周期完成。

So you can function, it just takes a little while for those clothes, that brain to dry out so you can actually function well, but it's better to wait through the whole cycle is complete.

所以这就是为什么你要设那个九十分钟的闹钟。

So that's why you want to set that ninety minute alarm clock.

而且，那大概是九十分钟，因为睡眠的第一个阶段，第一个睡眠周期其实会稍微长一点，大概是一百零五到一百一十分钟。

And again, that's around ninety minutes because the first stage of sleep, the first cycle of sleep is actually a little longer, more like 105, 110.

但是后面的第二个、第三个周期，随着夜晚的推进，会变得越来越短。

But then the second ones and third ones, they get sort of shorter and shorter as the night goes on.

在最后几个周期里，你基本上就是在完成快速眼动睡眠的结尾部分，这个阶段花的时间更少。

And in the last few cycles, you're just doing the end to REM sleep cycle, which takes less time.

如果你在快速眼动睡眠期间醒来，通常认知上没什么问题。

And if you wake up out of REM sleep, there's usually no problem cognitively.

你喜欢用睡眠追踪器吗？

Are you a fan of sleep trackers?

喜欢。

Yeah.

你有在用吗？

Do you use one?

我手上就戴着一个。

I have one on.

我不会完全依赖它们，因为目前最好的睡眠追踪器在判断睡眠阶段方面也只有大约70%的准确率。

I don't live my life by them because the best ones right now are about 70% effective at staging your sleep.

所以70%，还行吧。

So 70%, it's okay.

还行，但我的意思是，别太当真。

It's okay, but take it with a grain of salt is what I'm saying.

再跟我们多讲讲睡眠时大脑里发生的清除过程吧，还有有没有什么办法能确保它发生，或者确保它不发生。

Tell us a little bit more about the washout that occurs in the brain during sleep, and perhaps if there are any ways to ensure that it happens or to ensure that it doesn't happen.

当然我们希望它发生。

And obviously we want this to happen.

对，我们之前聊过生物钟，以及某些事情在特定时间发生。

Yeah, we talked about the circadian clock and how certain things happen at certain times.

嗯，当我们醒着聊天的时候，会发生很多事情，其中一件就是大脑可塑性很强。

Well, one of the things that happens when we're awake and talking to each other is that there's a lot of plasticity.

比如我今天从你这里学到东西，你也从我这里学到东西，这会改变我们的突触，也会影响睡眠时蛋白质的折叠和变化方式。

There's something that I'm learning from you today and you're learning from me, and that changes our synapses and it changes the way our proteins are going to be folded and changed during sleep.

这个过程其实消耗很多ATP，就是大脑的能量来源。

This process actually uses a lot of ATP, the power structure, the fuel of the brain.

在我们用这些蛋白质的时候，它们也会被展开。

It unfolds also proteins while we're doing this, while we're using them.

所以晚上刚入睡的头二十分钟左右，我们就把腺苷重新合成回ATP。

And so during that first part of the night, when we first fall asleep in the first twenty minutes or so, we're building that adenosine back into ATP.

这可能就是为什么叫“充电小睡”，因为我们确实在重新充电。

And that's probably why power naps are called power naps, because we're actually rebuilding the power.

然后通过慢波睡眠的深慢波，我们也在清理那些错误折叠的蛋白质、展开的蛋白质，还有其他在清醒时被分解、需要在睡眠中重建的东西。

And then we're also cleaning out through the deep slow waves of slow wave sleep, we're cleaning out all those misfolded proteins, unfolded proteins and other things that get broken down and need to be rebuilt when we're asleep because of its use during wakefulness.

所以我觉得这就像开完一场大派对，需要所有客人离开才能开始打扫。

So I liken that to having a big party during and you need all those partygoers to leave in order to do the cleanup.

神经元放电的时候会膨胀。

What happens when a neuron is firing is that it expands.

细胞膜会稍微扩张，变得更透明。

The membrane expands a little bit, becomes more translucent.

这就是我们怎么知道神经元放电时会膨胀的，这是其中一种方式。

That's how we know, one of the ways we know that neurons expand when they fire.

所以每次动作电位，钠离子把水带进细胞，细胞膜就会稍微膨胀一点。

And so every action potential, the membrane expands a little bit as sodium brings water into the cell.

然后当它们安静下来时，就会收缩。

And then when they're silent, they contract.

所以在慢波期间，有趣的是，你能测到它们的原因是，所有神经元——不是全部，但很大一部分——同时放电，同时安静。

And so during slow waves, the cool thing is that the reason why you can measure them is that all the neurons at the same time, not all of them, but a good portion of them are firing at the same time and silent at the same time.

所以你可以想象它们同时收缩和膨胀。

And so you think about that as contracting and expanding all at the same time.

这有点像大脑的排水泵，可以把东西泵出去。

It's kind of like a bilge pump of the brain so that can pump out.

胶质细胞在这方面也非常重要，它们负责清理碎片，并把它们送到该去的地方。

Glia are also really important for this in terms of cleaning up debris and transferring it to where it needs to go.

所以我真的把它看作是一个排水泵，在清理我们的大脑。

So I think of it actually as a bilge pump, cleaning out our brain.

你这里说的是神经元真的在同步扩张和收缩，把液体推过去，清理掉那些可能因为代谢途径产生的错误折叠蛋白或垃圾。

Here you're talking about literally an expansion and a contraction of the neurons in unison and pushing the fluid through, cleaning out any misfolded proteins or debris that might occur on the basis of these metabolic pathways.

那这样做的结果是什么呢？

And the consequence of that is to what?

是为了让大脑第二天处于更干净、更高效的状态吗？

To leave the brain in a state of more pristine action for the next day?

对，你可以这么想，就像开派对一样，如果派对结束后不打扫，第二天再开一场，就会越来越堵。

Yeah, Is that you think of it, again, like a party, and if you don't clean up after that party, and you try and hold another one the next day, it's going to get more clogged.

你知道，人们会越来越难走动，玩得也不尽兴。

Know, People have a harder time moving around and enjoying themselves.

如果日复一日地积累，认知能力——就像派对参与者走动——就会变得困难。

And if that builds up day after day, it's gonna be cognition, that would be the party goers moving around, becomes hard.

所以你描述的这个排水泵，是和慢波睡眠中的大慢波相关的。

And so this bilge pump that you described is associated with the big slow waves of slow wave sleep.

所以这大概发生在夜晚的前三分之一时段，对吧？

So this is going to occur more or less in the first third of the night, Yeah, is that

没错。

that's right.

那这和生长激素的情况类似吗？如果你比平时睡得晚，就会错过那个清洗过程。

And is this similar to the case with growth hormone, where if you go to sleep later than you would normally, you miss the washout.

不是推迟了，而是错过了。

It's not you don't delay it.

对。

No.

你错过了那个清洗过程。

You miss the washout.

对，没错。

That's right, that's right.

所以如果你凌晨一两点才睡，你的睡眠仍然会以N2和快速眼动睡眠为主，而不是慢波睡眠。

So if you go to sleep at one or two in the morning, your sleep is still gonna be dominated by N2 and REM sleep, not by slow wave sleep.

所以你需要先睡上那一段。

So you need to get that first bit of sleep.

那有个例外情况，如果某人通常凌晨一两点睡，

Would a caveat to that be if somebody normally goes to sleep at one or two a.

然后

M.

早上十点起，

And wakes up at ten a.

这样呢？

M?

对。

Yeah.

如果那是他们的正常睡眠周期。

If that's their normal sleep cycle.

对，那应该没问题。

Yeah, it should be okay.

有人可能会想对习惯这种作息的人做睡眠研究，看看他们的褪黑素释放是否也会推迟，以及早晨正常出现的皮质酮升高是否也会延后。

Somebody would wanna do a sleep study with people who do that normally and see if also the melatonin release is later and the corticosterone rise that happens normally in the morning also happens later.

所以如果一切都顺延了，那就没问题。

So if everything shifted, good.

我想稍微休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商Eight Sleep。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor Eight Sleep.

Eight Sleep生产智能床垫罩，具备制冷、加热和睡眠追踪功能。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

确保你获得优质睡眠的最佳方法之一，就是确保睡眠环境的温度适宜。

One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.

这是因为，为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，你的体温实际上需要下降大约一到三度。

And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.

而为了醒来时感觉精神焕发、精力充沛，你的体温实际上需要上升大约一到三度。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

Eight Sleep会根据你的独特需求，整夜自动调节床的温度。

Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.

我使用Eight Sleep床垫罩已经将近五年了，它彻底改变并提升了我睡眠的质量。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.

最新的Eight Sleep型号是Pod五。

The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod five.

我现在睡的就是这款，我非常喜欢。

This is what I'm now sleeping on and I absolutely love it.

它有很多很棒的功能。

It has so many incredible features.

比如，Pod五有一个叫自动驾驶的功能，它是一个AI引擎，能学习你的睡眠模式，然后根据不同的睡眠阶段调整你睡眠环境的温度。

For instance, the Pod five has a feature called autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.

如果你打鼾，它甚至会抬高你的头部，还会做其他调整来优化你的睡眠。

It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.

如果你想试试Eight Sleep，去eightsleep.com/huberman，可以享受最高350美元的折扣，购买新的Pod五。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod five.

Eight Sleep发货到全球许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。

Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and The UAE.

再说一遍，去eightsleep.com/huberman，可以节省高达350美元。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.

我想请你给我们讲讲大脑里这个神奇的结构，也就是蓝斑核，顺便也聊聊它和肾上腺素，也就是我们常说的肾上腺素的关系。

I'd love for you to tell us about this incredible structure in the brain, which is the locus coeruleus, and hopefully tell us a little bit about its relationship to epinephrine, AKA adrenaline.

好的，蓝斑核里充满了含有去甲肾上腺素的神经元，去甲肾上腺素是大脑中的肾上腺素，也叫去甲肾上腺素。

Yeah, So the locus coeruleus is filled with neurons that have in them norepinephrine, which is the brain's version of epinephrine or adrenaline, it's also called noradrenaline.

它的作用就像我们身体其他部位的肾上腺素一样，帮助我们做好准备，对环境做出反应。

And what it does is it, just like adrenaline in the rest of our bodies, it helps prime us to respond to our environment.

所以当蓝斑核的神经元放电，并且是爆发式放电时，我们就能转移注意力。

So when locus coeruleus neurons fire and fire in a burst, we can switch our attention.

比如，当你正专注于某件事时，突然传来一声巨响，这些神经元就会爆发式放电。

And they will fire in a burst if, for example, a loud noise happens in the middle of your concentrating on something.

它放电后，能帮你把注意力转移到那个声音上，然后快速从中学习。

It fires and it helps you switch your attention to that thing and then learn quickly from it.

所以它在应激反应中非常重要。

So it's really important in a stress response.

它能帮助我们进行快速的一次性学习。

It helps us do quick one trial learning.

但持续的紧张水平是清醒和警觉的标志。

But just tonic levels are signature of wakefulness and alertness.

所以蓝斑核活动过度就会导致恐慌。

So too much is panic with a locus coeruleus activity.

爆发式活动是切换注意力，而持续的紧张水平则是保持持续的专注。

A burst is switching attention, and then tonic levels are sustained constant attention.

当我们入睡时，蓝斑核的活动会减慢，从平均每秒两次降到大约每秒一次，也就是持续地每秒一个周期。

And then when we go to sleep, the locus coeruleus slows and goes from about, on average, two Hertz to about one Hertz, one cycle per second, tonically.

而当我们进入快速眼动睡眠时，它是唯一完全关闭的时刻。

And then when we go into REM sleep, it's the only time when it shuts off completely.

而这种完全的静默似乎对很多事情都非常非常重要。

And it appears that that complete silence is really, really important for a number of things.

我认为它最重要的作用就是能够清除和分解那些不再对我们有用的突触。

And the main thing that I think it's important for is the ability to erase and break down synapses that are no longer working for us.

这些突触可能编码了现在错误的信息，或者编码了我们在大脑的新奇编码通路中学到但现在已经转移到其他通路的内容。

So they encode things that are false now, or they are encoding things that we learned in the novelty encoding pathway of our brain that have now been consolidated to other pathways.

所以我们现在需要把它们从新异编码通路中清除掉。

And so we need to now erase them from the novelty encoding pathway.

这对我们一生中持续学习新东西真的非常重要。

And that is really, really important for being able to continue to learn things all over our lives.

就像清除那个REM或者那个，我不知道，你们管那些插进电脑的盘叫什么来着？

So like erasing that REM or that, I don't know, what do you call those discs that you stick into computers?

U盘。

Thumb drives.

U盘。

Thumb drives.

你就是在清空你的U盘。

You're erasing your thumb drive.

那个U盘就是你整天随身携带的东西。

That thumb drive is what you carry around all day long.

然后睡觉的时候，你把U盘里的内容写到大脑皮层，也就是长期记忆结构里，而且你需要刷新那个U盘。

And then during sleep, you write that thumb drive to the cortex, to the long term memory structures, and you need to refresh that thumb drive.

这就是快速眼动睡眠期间蓝斑核关闭时发生的事情。

And that's what happens during REM sleep when the locus coeruleus is off.

所以如果我们做不到这一点，我们很快就会填满快速眼动期，或者说那个U盘很快就会装满，我们就没法学习新东西了。

And so if we're not able to do that, we fill up that REM really quickly or that thumb drive really quickly, and we're not able to learn new things.

即使是多年前的记忆，如果你一直无法降低新颖性编码结构的强度，无法把它从创伤记忆中清除出去，它就会一直保持新鲜，然后变得适应不良。

Even memories that are years past, if you're never able to downscale that novelty encoding structure and purge it from that traumatic memory, it will stay fresh and new and then become maladaptive.

你知道有哪些方法可以降低蓝斑核在睡眠这些阶段的输出，让每晚的后期睡眠发挥最大的积极作用吗？

What approaches are you aware of that can turn down the output of Locus Coeruleus during these phases of sleep and allow late stages of sleep each night to have their maximum positive effect?

除了避免使用血清素能或去甲肾上腺素能化合物之外，我还能做些什么吗？

Is Is there anything that I can do besides avoiding serotonergic or noradrenergic compounds?

嗯，我还会建议在睡觉前避免任何可能刺激这些系统的事情。

Well, I would also avoid anything just prior to going to sleep that might excite those systems.

比如很多新奇刺激的、让人紧张的游戏。

So a lot of novelty, stress inducing video games.

尽量带着平静的心情入睡。

Try and enter sleep with as much calm as you can.

所以也许可以做做深呼吸练习。

So maybe deep breathing exercises.

深呼吸是平复交感神经战斗或逃跑反应的一个很好的方法。

That's a beautiful way to calm your sympathetic fight or flight system is deep breathing.

如果你能在睡前让交感神经系统平静下来，冥想或深呼吸练习可能会有帮助，对有些人来说，洗个热水澡或读一本让人放松的书也不错。

And if there's a way you can make your sympathetic nervous system calm down before you go to sleep, might free for you meditation or deep breathing exercises, might be for some a warm bath or a comforting book.

不要太刺激，但也许也不要太无聊。

Nothing too exciting, but also nothing too boring perhaps.

找一些让你感到开心和平静的事情来做，刚刚好。

Just something right in the middle which makes you feel happy and calm is what you should do.

如果你带着焦虑或兴奋入睡，那么你的睡眠可能会变得不适应。

And if you instead go to sleep while you're anxious or hyped up, then your sleep could become maladaptive.

我想请你多分享一些关于睡眠纺锤波的内容，之前提到过几次，是的，

I'd love for you to share with us a little bit more about the spindles that have come up a few Yeah,

我们睡眠纺锤波的密度，也就是每分钟产生的数量，首先与我们的智力密切相关。

the density of our sleep spindles, the number that we produce per minute is well correlated with our intelligence in the first place.

而且，无论你的智力水平如何，无论你的睡眠纺锤波密度如何，如果你白天学习了新东西，并且增加了睡眠纺锤波密度，这几乎与我们将信息巩固并整合到大脑已有知识结构中的能力完美相关。

And that no matter what your intelligence is, and no matter what your sleep spindle density is, if you learn something during the day and increase your sleep spindle density, it's really almost perfectly correlated with our ability to consolidate that information and incorporate it into the schema that we already have in our brain.

所以，如果你尝试学习新东西，即使你基线睡眠纺锤波密度很高，如果当晚没有增加睡眠纺锤波，你就不会真正利用睡眠来整合这些信息。

So if you try and learn something new, even if your sleep spindle density at baseline is great, if you don't increase your sleep spindles that night, you're not gonna you know, use sleep to really incorporate it.

我们现在通过朱莉·西普和安妮塔·卢西的一些优秀研究了解到，睡眠纺锤波伴随着远端树突中惊人的可塑性，这些树突是神经元的“倾听分支”，负责接收其他皮层区域的信息。

One of the things we now know through some great studies by Julie Seep and Anita Luthi is that sleep spindles are accompanied by an incredible plasticity out in the distal dendrites, the listening branches of our neurons that listen to other cortical areas.

我们的神经元有近端树突，它们接收外部世界的信息，并通过丘脑传导。

So there are proximal dendrites in our neurons that listen to the external world and are conducted through the thalamus.

还有远端树突，它们倾听大脑内部发生的对话。

And then there are distal dendrites which listen to an internal conversation that's happening in our brains.

这实际上就是我们的内在状态。

It's our internal state, really.

在睡眠纺锤波期间，正是这些远端树突能够最好地从其他皮层区域和海马体学习。

And during sleep spindles, that's when those distal dendrites are able to best learn from other cortical areas and from the hippocampus.

正是在睡眠纺锤波期间，海马体和皮层之间的连接最佳，这种惊人的可塑性才能发生。

It is during sleep spindles up the hippocampus and the cortex are best connected and when that incredible plasticity can happen.

所以当我提到图式的时候，那是大脑皮层之间的事情。

So when I talk about schema, that's a cortical cortical thing.

大量的钙离子涌入那些远端树突，在那里发生大量的可塑性变化。

There's big surges of calcium into those distal dendrites and where plasticity happens in just huge amounts.

在睡眠纺锤波阶段，也就是N2期，还有一个从脑干传来的兴奋性信号，它会投射到整个大脑皮层，这就是所谓的PGO波，我们其实应该把它泛称为P波，因为它从脑桥出发，经过丘脑。

During that sleep spindle stage of sleep, which is N2 stage, there's another excitatory event that comes all the way from the brainstem and projects everywhere in our cortex, which is called PGO waves, which we should generalize to P waves because they come from the pons and go to the thalamus.

然后整个大脑皮层都会受到影响。

Then the cortex happens all over the brains.

这时候，谷氨酸——一种与学习和可塑性有关的主要兴奋性神经递质——也会大量释放到那些远端树突中。

And that is where glutamate, which is a major excitatory neurotransmitter involved in learning and plasticity, is being released in big amounts also in those distal dendrites.

所以P波和纺锤波共同作用，促进可塑性，把我们的图式缝合在一起，这可能是洞察力和创造力的来源。

So P waves and spindles work together to cause plasticity, and sew our schema together, which could be the origins for insight and creativity.

当P波最初被发现时，人们认为它是随机的，因为产生P波的那个小区域会投射到整个丘脑，导致整个大脑都出现P波。

Now, when P waves were first discovered, it was thought to be random because this small area that generates P waves all over the brain projects all over the thalamus and causes P waves all over.

而且你不会在同一时间测量到整个大脑的P波。

And you don't measure P waves all over the brain at the same time.

实际上，它看起来就是零零散散、随机发生的。

In fact, it just seems sporadic and random.

而且P波在快速眼动睡眠，也就是REM睡眠期间，出现得更加频繁。

And P waves are also happening even more during REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep.

所以这就是为什么人们觉得REM期的梦那么随机，因为P波本身就是随机的，它们能生成梦境，因为它们是内部兴奋源，在我们做梦时替代了外部世界。

So that's why people think that REM dreams are so random is because these P waves are random and they could generate dreams because they're an internal source of excitation that replaces the outside world during our dream state.

所以这些P波，如果它们是随机的，可能就是创造力产生的基础原因，因为我们在大脑中随机激活、共同激活不同的东西，然后我们可以把它们缝合在一起。

And so these P waves, if they are random, could be the underlying reason why creativity can happen there is because we're randomly activating, co activating different things in our brain that we can then sew together.

但可能并不像我们想的那么随机。

But it might not be as random as we think.

这就是需要注意的地方。

So that's the caveat there.

我想快速休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor AG1.

AG1刚刚推出了他们的最新配方，叫做AG1 Pro。

AG1 just launched their newest formulation called AG1 Pro.

现在订阅的话，首单还能再打八折。

And right now you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription.

AG1 Pro 在原有经过临床验证的配方基础上，也就是维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原的混合物，新增了三种重要成分：一水肌酸、HMB钙和肌肽锌。

AG1 takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients, creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine.

其中含有五克一水肌酸，有助于增强肌肉力量和运动表现，同时也有益于大脑健康。

It has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance along with brain health.

HMB钙有助于肌肉恢复，减少肌肉分解；肌肽锌则有助于保护和改善肠道内壁。

Calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.

这些成分中的一些，我以前就在单独服用，没有包含在AG1的配方里。

Some of these ingredients I personally was already taking separate from the AG1 formula.

所以现在看到这三种成分都出现在新的AG1 Pro里，我觉得特别好。

So it's great to see all three of them now in the new AG1 Pro.

你可能知道，我每天服用AG1已经坚持了大约十四年了。

As you may know, I've been taking AG1 every single day for about fourteen years now.

也就是说，我早在知道播客是什么之前，就已经发现并开始每天服用它了。

That means I discovered it and started taking it daily long before I even knew what a podcast was.

我一直在服用它，并且在这里的播客中推荐它，因为它确实是个很棒的配方。

I continue to take it and back it here on the podcast because it is an excellent formula.

现在有了AG1 Pro配方，它变得更好了。

And it's now even better with the AG1 Pro formula.

限时优惠，你去drinkag1.com/huberman，使用优惠码back to routine，首次订阅AG1 Pro就能额外享受20%的折扣。

For a limited time, you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription to AG1 Pro by going to drinkag1.com/huberman and using the code back to routine.

注意，优惠码是back，数字2，再back，数字2，然后routine。

So that's with the numeral two, back numeral two routine.

直接访问drinkag1.com/huberman就行。

Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman.

所以蓝斑核被抑制了，我们就无法释放去甲肾上腺素。

So Locus Coeruleus is suppressed, so we can't release norepinephrine.

我们也就不会把梦表演出来。

We can't act out our dreams.

这听起来有点像睡眠中内置的一种创伤疗法。

This almost starts to sound like a little bit of a built in while sleeping trauma therapy.