要点：运用催眠术提升心理与身体健康及表现 | 大卫·斯皮格尔博士

欢迎来到《Huberman Lab Essentials》，我们将重温往期节目，为您带来最有效、最具实操性的科学工具，助力心理健康、身体健康与表现提升。

Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.

我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院神经生物学与眼科学教授。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

现在开始我与博士的对话。

And now for my discussion with Doctor.

David Spiegel。

David Spiegel.

David，非常感谢你能来参加节目。

David, thank you so much for being here.

Andrew，这是我的荣幸。

Andrew, my pleasure.

你能告诉我们什么是催眠吗？

Can you tell us what is hypnosis?

催眠是一种高度专注的意识状态。

Hypnosis is a state of highly focused attention.

这就像是通过意识中的长焦镜头观察事物。

It's something like looking through the telephoto lens of a camera in consciousness.

你所看到的细节丰富，但缺乏背景环境。

What you see, you see with great detail, but devoid of context.

如果你曾有过如此沉浸在一部好电影中，以至于忘记自己是在看电影，而是进入了想象的世界，成为电影的一部分而非观众，你正在体验而非评价它。

If you've had the experience of getting so caught up in a good movie that you forget you're watching a movie and enter the imagined world, you're part of the movie, not part of the audience, you're experiencing it, you're not evaluating it.

这就是许多人在日常生活中会遇到的类似催眠的体验。

That's a hypnotic like experience that many people have in their everyday lives.

如果我在观看体育比赛时完全投入其中，同时能感知到身体对比赛的反应，比如记录兴奋或期待的情绪。

If I'm watching a sports game and I'm really wrapped up in the game, but I'm also in touch with how it makes me feel in my body, kind of registering the excitement or the anticipation.

那是否也是一种催眠状态？

Is that a state of hypnosis also?

就你的躯体反应成为你所投入的体育赛事的一部分而言，我会说这是一种自我改变的催眠体验。

To the extent that your somatic, your body experience is a part of the sport event that you're engaged with, I'd say that is a self altering hypnotic experience.

如果你的身体反应让你分心或想到其他事情，那就没那么像催眠状态，而只是众多体验中的一种。

If your physical reactions are distracting you or make you think about something else, that's when it's less hypnotic like and more just one of a series of experiences.

我想对大多数人来说，当他们听到催眠或想到催眠时，他们想到的是舞台催眠。

I think for most people when they hear hypnosis or they think about hypnosis, they think of stage hypnosis.

对。

Right.

他们想到的是有人拿着吊坠来回摆动。

They think of somebody with a pendant going back and forth.

你能对比一下你在临床环境中做的催眠和舞台催眠师做的催眠吗？

Could you contrast the sort of hypnosis that you do in the clinical setting with the sort of hypnosis that a stage hypnotist does?

我不喜欢舞台催眠。

I don't like stage hypnosis.

你是在愚弄人们，而且你利用了这一点，这正是人们对催眠感到害怕的原因。

You're making fools out of people and you're using the fact, and that's what scares people about hypnosis.

他们认为你会失去控制。

They think you're losing control.

你是在获得控制。

You're gaining control.

自我催眠是一种增强你对身心控制力的方式。

Self hypnosis is a way of enhancing your control over your mind and your body.

它效果显著，但正因它能赋予你某种认知灵活性，你能轻松转换思维模式，放弃惯常的评判与评估方式，从不同视角看待事物。

It can work very well, but because it gives you a kind of cognitive flexibility, you're able to shift sets very easily to give up judging and evaluating the way you usually do and see something from a different point of view.

这是个绝佳的治疗契机。

That's a great therapeutic opportunity.

但如果被滥用，也可能带来危险。

But if misused, it could be a danger too.

这正是人们对其感到恐惧的原因。

And that's what scares people about it.

正是这种暂时搁置批判性判断、单纯体验并观察结果的能力。

It is that very ability to suspend critical judgment and just have an experience and see what happens.

如果人们学会识别和理解这种能力，它将成为一个强大的治疗工具。

It's an ability that if people learn to recognize and understand it, can be a tremendous therapeutic tool.

我们是否知道在诱导阶段——我们称之为深度催眠期间——哪些脑区处于活跃状态？以及当人们退出催眠时，哪些区域会关闭或发生变化？

Do we know what sorts of brain areas are active during the induction, the let's call it the deep hypnosis, and then what's shutting off or changing as people exit hypnosis?

首先是降低背侧前扣带回皮层的活动。

The first is turning down activity in the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex.

所以DACC位于大脑前中部中央区域，正如你所知，它是我们所说的显著性网络的一部分。

So the DACC is in the central front middle part of the brain, as you well know, And it's part of what we call the salience network.

它是一个冲突检测器。

It's a conflict detector.

比如当你正在工作，突然听到一声巨响，你以为可能是枪声，那就是你的前扣带回皮层在提醒：嘿，等等，那边可能有危险。

So if you're engaged in work and you hear a loud noise that you think might be a gunshot, that's your anterior cingulate cortex saying, hey, wait a minute, there's some potential danger over there.

你最好注意一下。

You better pay attention to it.

它会将你正在做的事与其他情况进行比较，帮助你决定该做什么。

So compares what you're doing with what else is going on and helps you decide what to do.

可想而知，降低该区域的活动会让你更不容易分心，不会被外界干扰打断。

And as you can imagine, turning down activity in that region make it less likely that you'll be distracted and pulled out of whatever you're in.

还有两件事发生在人们被催眠时。

So two other things happen when people are hypnotized.

一是DLPFC与脑岛的功能连接性增强。

One is that that DLPFC has higher functional connectivity with the insula.

作为显著性网络的另一部分，它是身心控制系统中对身体状态敏感的区域。

Another part of the salience network, it's a part of the mind body control system sensitive to what's happening in the body.

它也是疼痛网络的一部分。

It's part of the pain network as well.

但这也是大脑中一个可以控制你意想不到的身体功能的区域。

But it's also a region of the brain where you can control things in your body that you wouldn't think you could.

例如，我们多年前做过一项研究：我们选取了易受催眠的被试，在催眠状态下让他们想象参加一场美食之旅。

For example, we did a study years ago where we took people were highly hypnotizable, hypnotized them and told them to imagine We went on an imaginary culinary tour.

结果发现他们的胃酸分泌量增加了约87%。

So they would eat their favorite foods and we found that they increased their gastric acid secretion like by 87%.

他们的胃部反应就像真的在进食一样——有位女士的体验特别生动，进行到一半时她说'我们停下吧，我已经吃饱了'。

So their stomach was acting as though it was about to get I mean, there was one woman, it was so vivid for her that halfway through she said, let's stop, I'm full.

虽然全程只是在想象进食

Eating these imaginary Having never

什么都没吃。

eaten anything.

食物。

Food.

没有。

No.

难以置信。

Incredible.

然后我们让他们放松，想任何事除了食物或饮料。

And then we got them to relax and think of anything but food or drink.

我们观察到胃酸分泌减少了约40%。

And we got like a 40% decrease in gastric acid secretion.

所以他们能够做到，这是通过DLPFC经由脑岛告诉胃你要进食或不需要进食。

So they could, and that was DLPFC through the insula telling the stomach you're getting food or you're not getting food.

甚至我们给他们注射了五肽胃泌素，这种物质会触发胃酸分泌。

And even we injected them with pentagastrin, which triggers gastric acid release.

即便在催眠状态下，胃酸分泌也减少了19%。

And even then in the hypnosis condition, had a 19% reduction in gastric acid.

大脑拥有这种惊人的能力，能以我们意想不到的方式控制体内发生的情况。

So the brain has this amazing ability to control what's going on in the body in ways that we don't think we have ability to control.

这只是其中一个例子。

That's just one example.

这就是DLPFC与胰岛素之间的联系。

So that's the DLPFC insulin connection.

第三件事是DLPFC与后扣带皮层之间出现反向功能连接。

The third thing that happens is you have inverse functional connectivity between the DLPFC and the posterior cingulate cortex.

后扣带皮层是默认模式网络的一部分。

The posterior cingulate is part of the default mode network.

它位于大脑的后部。

It's in the back of the brain.

这个区域的活动会降低，比如在冥想者身上。

And it's an area whose activity goes down, for example, in meditators.

在冥想中，你应该达到无我的境界。

And in meditation, you're supposed to be selfless.

你应该明白自我是一种幻觉，应该让它消融，只是去体验事物。

You're supposed to, the self is an illusion, you're supposed to let it dissolve and just experience things.

当你这样做时，后扣带回的活动正在减少。

And when you're doing that, that posterior cingulate is decreasing in activity.

这种反向连接表现为：我正在做某件事，但不去思考它对我的意义。

The inverse connection is I'm doing something, but I'm not thinking about what it means for me.

我可能甚至记不清大部分内容。

I may not even remember much of it.

就算记得，我也不太在意。

If I do, I don't care that much about it.

这就是催眠过程中发生的解离现象的一部分。

And so that is part of the dissociation that occurs with hypnosis.

这就是如何将事物置于意识觉察之外，而不去担心其含义。

So it's how you put things outside of conscious awareness and don't worry about what it means.

这还能增强认知灵活性。

It also adds to cognitive flexibility.

如果你想着'像我这样的人通常不会这么做'，这种想法可能会阻碍你实施一种新的心理治疗方法，比如你从未尝试过的疗法。

If you're thinking, well, people like me don't usually do this, that may inhibit you from enacting a new form of psychotherapy, for example, that you've never done before.

但如果你大脑中负责思考其意义的部分活动减弱，你就更可能在认知上保持灵活，并愿意尝试新方法。

But if you're having this decreased activity in the part of your brain that reflects on what it means, you're more likely to be cognitively flexible and willing to give it a try.

这也是催眠治疗的另一个优势所在。

And that's one of the therapeutic advantages of hypnosis as well.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商Function。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors Function.

去年，在寻找最全面的实验室检测方案后，我成为了Function的会员。

Last year, became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

Function提供超过100项高级实验室检测，能全面反映你的整体健康状况。

Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.

这些检测结果能让你深入了解心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等多方面情况。

This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.

Function不仅提供100多种与身心健康相关的关键生物标志物检测，

Function not only provides testing of over a 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.

还分析这些结果并提供相关领域顶尖医生的专业见解。

For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.

例如，在我第一次使用Function的检测中，发现血液中汞含量偏高。

Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption.

Function不仅帮我发现了这个问题，还提供了降低汞含量的最佳方案，包括限制金枪鱼摄入。

I'd been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.

当时我经常吃金枪鱼，同时努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充NAC和乙酰半胱氨酸，这两种物质都能支持谷胱甘肽生成和解毒功能。

And I should say by taking a second function test, that approach worked.

通过第二次Function检测，我可以证实这个方法是有效的。

Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.

全面的血液检测至关重要。

There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.

许多与身心健康相关的问题只能通过血液检测才能发现。

The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.

相比之下，Function的简洁性和价格水平让我非常惊喜，它非常实惠。

In contrast, I've been super impressed by function simplicity and at the level of cost, it is very affordable.

因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，并且很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。

As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

如果你想尝试Function，可以访问functionhealth.com/huberman。

If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.

Function目前有超过25万人的等候名单，但他们为Huberman播客听众提供了早期访问权限。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.

再次强调，访问functionhealth.com/huberman即可获得Function的早期使用权。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to function.

患有ADHD的人是否会在这些网络元素中表现出紊乱？

Do people with ADHD display disruptions in elements of these networks?

催眠是否曾被用来增强人们集中和保持注意力的能力？因为这是催眠状态的一个固有组成部分。

And has hypnosis ever been used to enhance people's ability to focus and hold attention because that's such a built in component of the hypnotic state?

这个问题可以从两个角度来思考。

There's sort of two ways to think about it.

在提升专注力方面，是的，催眠在教导人们如何让思维集中聚焦于某件事上非常有效。

In terms of enhancing focus, yes, it has been very helpful in teaching people to just prepare your mind to narrow in and focus on something.

当你真正投入阅读或撰写论文时，我有时会想‘天啊，我还得再坚持一小时’。

And when you're really engaged in reading something or you're writing a paper, I mean, I'll have that sometimes I'm thinking, Oh God, I have to do this for another hour.

而有时一小时过去后我会觉得‘嘿，太棒了’。

Other times an hour will go by and I'll think, hey, great.

因为当你沉浸其中时，那种感觉就像玩游戏，你只是在拼凑谜题的各个部分并将它们组合起来。

Because when you're in it, it feels game like, you're just assembling the parts of the puzzle and putting them together.

很有趣，你会完全沉浸其中。

It's fun, you just get absorbed.

对我来说，那就像一种催眠般的体验。

That for me, that's a hypnotic like experience.

当我遇到困难、陷入挣扎时，有时像自我催眠这样的方法会有所帮助。

When I'm having trouble, when I'm struggling, sometimes doing things like self hypnosis can help.

对于某些患有这种障碍的人来说，自我催眠训练可能会有效果，但我们得先评估他们的可催眠性，再据此制定方案。

It's possible that for some people with that disorder, training in self hypnosis might help, but we'd have to see how hypnotizable they were and take it from there.

你在哪些方面成功运用过催眠疗法？或者其他人将临床催眠用于哪些领域？

What sorts of things have you used hypnosis successfully for, or have others used clinical hypnosis for?

精神病学领域是否存在特别适合催眠治疗的特定挑战或疾病？

And are there any particular areas of psychiatric challenges or illnesses, I guess they're called, that are particularly amenable to hypnotic treatment?

是的，确实存在。

Yes, there are.

我们发现它对减压非常有效。

We found it very helpful for stress reduction.

这种身心连接非常有帮助，因为压力问题部分源于你的感知。

That mind body connection is very helpful because part of the problem with stress is your perception.

你之前提到过这种良性反应，比如在足球比赛时感受到的身体反应。

You mentioned it earlier in a sort of good sense, you're at a football game or something and you feel the physical reaction.

这种反应可以起到强化作用。

That can be a reinforcing thing.

哇，这太令人兴奋了，我们继续吧。

Wow, this is exciting, let's do it.

它也可能非常让人分心。

It can also be very distracting.

你会注意到身体的变化，身体紧绷、开始出汗，交感神经系统启动，心率上升。

You notice it in your body, your body tenses up, you start to sweat, the sympathetic nervous system goes, your heart rate goes up.

当你注意到这些时，你会想，天啊，这真的很糟糕。

When you notice that you think, oh God, this is really bad.

然后你会感觉更糟。

And then you feel worse.

这就像滚下山的雪球。

So it's like a snowball rolling downhill.

催眠在分离躯体反应和心理反应方面非常有效。

Hypnosis can be very helpful in dissociating somatic reaction from psychological reactions.

所以我们教人们想象自己的身体漂浮在某个安全舒适的地方，比如浴缸、湖泊、热水浴缸，或是漂浮在太空中，然后将困扰他们的问题投射到一个想象的屏幕上，并遵守一个规则：无论屏幕上出现什么，都要保持身体的舒适。

So we teach people to imagine their body floating somewhere safe and comfortable, like a bath, a lake, a hot tub, or floating in space, And then picture the problem that's stressing them on an imaginary screen with the rule that no matter what you see on the screen, you keep your body comfortable.

所以在这个阶段，你仍然无法控制压力，但你可以控制自己对压力的生理反应。

So at this point, you still can't control the stress, but you can control your physical reaction to it.

这让你开始感觉更有掌控感。

And that starts you feeling more in control.

至少有一件事是我能掌控的。

At least there's one thing I can manage.

然后你可以用它来思考或设想应对那个压力源的一个方法。

And then you can use it to think through or visualize through one thing you might do about that stressor.

所以催眠在控制与压力相关的心身互动方面非常有效。

So hypnosis is very helpful in controlling mind body interaction in relation to stress.

它对帮助人们入睡非常有效。

It's very helpful for people to get to sleep.

我收到人们发来的邮件说，'我十五年都没睡好觉了，现在第一次听你们的应用，晚上能睡着了'。

I'm getting emails from people who said, I haven't slept right in fifteen years and now for the first time, I'm listening to your app and I can sleep at night.

我长期使用自我催眠来助眠，现在又用Reverie应用，我们会谈谈我们与Reverie应用的关系及其用途。

I've been using the self hypnosis for sleep for a long time and now the Reverie app, and we'll talk about our relationship to the Reverie app and its uses.

我觉得它非常有用。

I find it incredibly useful.

这算是对这些网络的一种训练，对吧？

It's a kind of a training up of these networks, right?

没错。

That's right.

所以通过反复使用自我催眠，可以想象这些网络会变得更强大。

So with repeated use of self hypnosis, one could imagine that these networks are getting stronger.

我也这么认为。

I would think so.

虽然目前还没有证据，但长时程增强作用提供了一种途径——正如你在节目中多次提到的——通过反复激活网络来建立有效的新连接。

We don't have evidence of that yet, but long term potentiation provides a pathway and you've described them on your program a number of times that allow for repeated activation of a network to actually build new connections that work.

至少从学习和记忆的角度来看，当你开始积累关于某个问题的记忆时。

And at the least, even from a learning and memory point of view, if you start to acquire memories about a problem.

比如我们运用催眠治疗恐惧症的一个例子。

So one thing we use hypnosis for is treating phobias, for example.

患有恐惧症的人——比如飞机恐惧症、过桥或恐高——问题在于他们越是逃避，恐惧就越会成为他们唯一的联想和记忆来源。

And the problem with people who have phobias like airplane phobias or crossing a bridge or being up high is that the more they avoid it, the more the only source of associations and memories is their fear.

因为他们总是逃避，所以没有任何好的体验。

They don't have any good experiences with it because they avoid it.

这就像从马背上摔下来后要重新骑上去的道理。

It's like get back on the horse after you fall off kind of thing.

通过催眠，如果能帮助人们控制焦虑，让他们获得更广泛的体验，他们就能建立起不那么消极甚至可能是积极的联想网络。

And with hypnosis, if you can start people able to manage their anxiety enough that they can have more of wider array of experiences, they start to have a network of associations that isn't so negative and may even be positive.

在治疗中，叙事是一个非常重要的组成部分。

In therapy, narrative is a huge component.

对。

Right.

而在催眠中，叙事也是一个非常重要的组成部分。

And in hypnosis narrative is a huge component.

没错。

Right.

所以一定是大脑状态真正不同，因为我认为那些有创伤或恐惧症的人当然可以就此进行交谈。

So it must be that the brain state is what is really different, because, you know, I think people who have trauma or phobias certainly could have a conversation about it.

他们中有些人可能会僵住，有些人可能会失去表达能力等等，但你认为这种状态与叙事相结合时，有什么不同之处能让这些潜在的神经网络参与或改变？

Some of them might freeze up, some of them might lose their articulation and so forth, but what is different about that state that combines with narrative you think to allow these underlying neural networks to engage or to change?

我认为这是一种非系统性的脱敏过程，因为你正在改变心理状态。

I think of this as unsystematic desensitization because you're changing mental states.

而且我认为越来越多的证据表明，心理状态改变本身就具有治疗潜力。

And I think there's more and more evidence that mental state change itself has therapeutic potential.

我们在氯胺酮治疗抑郁症中看到了这一点，这是一种致幻剂。

We're seeing that with ketamine treating depression, a dissociogenic drug.

我们每天早上醒来时都知道这个问题——你不小心在晚上11点读了一封恶意邮件，当时不知所措。

We know it every morning when we wake up that problem, you made the mistake of reading a nasty email at 11PM, you didn't know what to do.

但早上醒来后你会想，哦那个白痴，看我怎么对付他。

You wake up in the morning and think, oh, that idiot, yeah, here's what I'm going do.

所以仅仅是改变心理状态本身就具有治疗潜力。

So just changing mental state itself has therapeutic potential.

我认为我们低估了自己调节和改变反应的能力，无论是在认知、情绪还是身体灵活性方面。

And I think we underestimate our ability to regulate and change responses, to be cognitively, emotionally and somatically flexible.

因此我们采取行动，你说得对，遵循类似的原则：直面问题，从不同角度审视它，然后找到重新连接的方式，用能让你感觉良好而非糟糕的事物替代，从而激活大脑其他区域如中脑边缘奖励系统。

And so we do things, you're right, that follow similar principles of facing a problem, seeing it from a different point of view, and then find some way to reconnect to it, to substitute something that can make you feel good rather than bad so that you activate other centers of the brain like mesolimbic reward system.

所以我用催眠来实现这点，而且你能更快做到。

And so I do that with hypnosis and you can do it much faster.

人们不认为自己能做到，但他们其实可以。

People don't think they can, but they can.

如果你此刻正经历这种身体感受，我在思考这件事，但不像以前那样感觉糟糕，这可能成为强大的转变契机。

If you're having right now that physical experience, I'm thinking about this, but I'm not feeling as bad as I used to, that can be a powerful thing.

你完全可以通过催眠实现这种改变。

And you can do it with hypnosis.

我曾接诊一位遭遇强奸未遂的女性患者。

So I had a woman came to see me who had suffered an attempted rape.

当时天色已晚。

It was getting dark.

她从杂货店返回途中，这个男人突然抓住她，试图将她拖进公寓外，就在她住所外面。

She was coming back from the grocery store and this guy grabs her and wants to get her up into her apartment, it's outside her apartment.

她开始与他搏斗，最终导致颅底骨折。

And she starts fighting with him and she winds up with a Basler skull fracture.

他逃跑了，警察来了，但由于她未被强奸，他们离开了，对此不感兴趣。

He runs away, the cops come, since she hadn't been raped, they left, they weren't interested.

她想通过催眠来获得更清晰的罪犯形象，这过程痛苦且令人不安。

And she wanted to use hypnosis to get a better image of what this guy looked like, which is a painful, upsetting thing.

所以她很容易被催眠。

So she was quite hypnotizable.

我让她进入漂浮状态。

I got her floating.

我说，你现在安全舒适，没有任何事物能伤害你的身体。

I say, you're safe and comfortable now, nothing can happen that will harm your body.

但在屏幕左侧，我要你想象这个人和他靠近时的情景。

But on the left side of the screen, I want you to picture this guy and his approaching and what's happening.

她说，当时天色确实渐暗。

And she said, really the light was it was getting dark.

我确实看不清他的面部特征，但我确实意识到了一些我此前不允许自己记住的事情。

I really can't see much of his facial features, but I do recognize something I hadn't allowed myself to remember.

如果他把我弄上楼，他不仅仅是想强奸我，他是要杀了我。

If he gets me upstairs, he doesn't just want to rape me, he's going to kill me.

所以在某些方面，她所看到的甚至更糟。

And so in some ways, what she was seeing was even worse.

所以你在想，干得好，斯皮格尔，你让她比之前更加害怕了。

So you're thinking good, Spiegel, you made her even more frightened than she was before.

但正如你在关于创伤后应激障碍的讲座中指出的，你必须直面创伤才能重构对它的理解。

But as you had pointed out in your PTSD stress lecture, you've got to confront the trauma to restructure your understanding of it.

所以在屏幕的另一边，让她想象，你正在采取什么措施保护自己？

So on the other side of the screen, had her picture, what are you doing to protect yourself?

每个处于创伤情境中的人都会采取某种自我保护策略。

And everybody in a trauma situation engages in some strategy of self protection.

这就是显著性网络在起作用。

That's the salience network kicking in.

她说，你知道吗？

And she said, you know what?

他对我如此激烈的反抗感到惊讶。

He's surprised that I'm fighting that hard.

他没想到我会这样反抗。

He didn't think I would.

于是她一方面意识到情况比她想象的更糟。

And so she realized on the one hand that it was even worse than she thought it was.

但另一方面她也意识到这很可能救了她的命。

But on the other hand that she actually probably saved her life.

这帮助她重构了对创伤经历的理解，使其变得更容易承受。

And so it was a way of helping her restructure her experience of the trauma and make it more tolerable.

这对她很有帮助。

So that helped with her.

虽然她无法指认那个男人，但这帮助她重新理解并重构了她的经历。

She couldn't identify the guy, but it helped her restructure and understand her experience.

这就是在直接的心理治疗谈话中可以实现的效果。

And that's something that you can do in just talking straight out psychotherapy.

但有时使用催眠疗法，你可以更快更高效地完成这个过程。

But sometimes you can do it a hell of a lot faster and more efficiently using hypnosis.

以色列有一项随机试验表明，在创伤后应激障碍治疗中加入催眠疗法确实能改善疗效。

And there is one randomized trial out of Israel that shows that adding hypnosis to PTSD treatment actually improves outcome.

这是一种实现心理治疗领域共识目标的方式，但效率更高，有时效果也更好。

So it's a way of accomplishing things that we understand in the broader psychotherapy world, but much more quickly and sometimes effectively.

安德鲁，我想补充一点，已故的戈登·鲍尔——斯坦福大学杰出的认知心理学家，也是认知心理学奠基人之一——曾提出一个概念。

There's one thing I might add Andrew, and that is, there's a notion, the late Gordon Bauer, brilliant cognitive psychologist, or one of the founders of cognitive psychology at Stanford.

戈登帮助建立了状态依赖性记忆理论，即当处于特定心理状态时，你会增强对相关事件的记忆能力。

Gordon helped establish the concept of state dependent memory that when you're in a certain mental state, you enhance your ability to remember things about it.

这方面一个负面例子就是醉汉藏酒瓶，清醒时想不起藏在哪里，直到再次喝醉处于相同心理状态时才记起来。

And the sort of the bad example of that is the drunk who hides the bottle and can't remember where he put it until he gets drunk again, that he's in that same mental state.

人们在遭受创伤时会进入解离状态。

People go into dissociative states when they're traumatized.

从某种程度上说，催眠能帮助他们更好地回忆和处理记忆，因为他们更接近事发时的心理状态。

So in a way, hypnosis is helping them remember and deal with the memories better because they're more in the mental state that is more like what happened.

大多数强奸受害者会告诉你：我当时漂浮在自己身体上方，为下面那个正在遭受侵犯的女人感到难过。

And most rape victims will tell you I was floating above my body feeling sorry for the woman being assaulted below.

经历创伤事件的人常说：我大脑一片空白，不知道发生了什么，完全处于自动状态。

People in traumatic episodes, they just say, I blank out, I don't know what's happening, I'm on autopilot.

这本身就是一种自我催眠状态。

And that's a kind of self hypnotic state.

因此当你使用催眠疗法帮助他们处理创伤记忆时，你正在使他们在你诊室内的心理状态更接近于创伤发生时的状态。

So when you use hypnosis to help them deal with a traumatic memory, you're making the state they're in right there in your office with you more congruent to the state they were likely in when the trauma happened.

我认为这正是促进创伤相关障碍治疗的部分原因。

And I think that is part of what helps facilitate treatment of trauma related disorders.

从某种程度上说，安德鲁，这个原理就像你必须重新面对创伤情境，才能调节与之相关的联想。

In a way, the principle Andrew is like, you need to re confront a traumatic situation before you can modulate your associations to it.

然后找出如何从不同角度处理这个问题，或当初是如何处理的。

And then figure out how you can approach that problem or how you did approach that problem from a different point of view.

我认为问题在于人们有时太擅长将自己与回忆分离。

And I think what happens is that people are sometimes too good at being able to separate themselves from the recollection.

所以它存在于某个地方。

So it's in there somewhere.

它看不见，但并非不存在于意识中。

It's out of sight, but it's not out of mind.

它正在对你产生影响，但你无法处理它。

It's having effects on you, but you can't deal with it.

你无法重新加工这段记忆。

You can't reprocess it.

问题的核心是控制力——而催眠术虽然背负着剥夺控制权的恶名，实际上却是增强身心控制力的绝佳方式。

The issue is control and hypnosis, which has this terrible reputation of taking away control is actually a superb way of enhancing your control over mind and body.

我们早就知道有些方法可以改善睡眠质量。

We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep.

这包括服用镁苏氨酸、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸等成分，以及藏红花和缬草根等较为冷门的成分。

And that includes things that we can take things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser known things like saffron and valerian root.

这些都是经过临床验证的成分，能帮助你入睡、保持睡眠，并让你醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。

These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep and wake up feeling more refreshed.

我很高兴地告诉大家，我们的长期赞助商AG1刚刚推出了一款名为AGZ的新产品，这是一款夜间饮品，旨在帮助你获得更好的睡眠，让你醒来时感觉超级精神焕发。

I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor AG1 just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed.

过去几年里，我与AG1团队合作开发了这款全新的AGZ配方。

Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.

它以精确配比包含了最佳助眠成分，只需简单冲泡即可饮用。

It has the best sleep supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy to drink mix.

这消除了在众多助眠补充剂中筛选、确定合适剂量和选择适合自己产品的所有复杂过程。

This removes all the complexity of trying to forge the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you.

据我所知，AGZ是市场上最全面的睡眠补充剂。

AGZ is to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.

我在睡前30到60分钟服用它——顺便说一句味道很棒——它能显著提升我的睡眠质量和深度。

I take it thirty to sixty minutes before sleep, it's delicious by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.

这一点我既从主观睡眠体验中感受到，也通过睡眠监测数据得到了验证。

I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep.

我很期待大家尝试这款新的AGZ配方，享受更好睡眠带来的益处。

I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep.

AGZ有巧克力、巧克力薄荷和混合莓果三种口味可选。

AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors.

正如我之前提到的，这些口味都非常美味。

And as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious.

三种口味中我最喜欢的是巧克力薄荷，不过其实每种我都非常喜欢。

My favorite of the three has to be, I think chocolate mint, but I really like them all.

如果你想尝试AGZ，请访问drinkagz.com/huberman获取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.

再次提醒，网址是drinkagz.com/huberman。

Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.

这让我想到命名真的很重要。

It reminds me that naming is so important.

你几乎会想，如果自我催眠和临床催眠被命名为其他名称，或许就能与舞台催眠区分开来，让人们不再觉得它那么可怕、怪异和复杂，更容易接受。

You almost wonder if self hypnosis and clinical hypnosis had been called something else that it would have been separated out from stage hypnosis in a way that would make it less scary, weird, complicated for people to embrace.

但你知道，我们之所以进行这场讨论，部分原因是我在催眠方面有过非常棒的体验。

But, you know, the part of the reason we're having this discussion is I've had great experiences with hypnosis.

我看过相关数据，我们讨论了很多临床案例。

I've seen the data, you know, we're talking about a lot of clinical examples.

它的效果极其强大，直接作用于神经大脑状态。

It's incredibly powerful and it boils right down to neural brain states.

没错。

Right.

而且我认为在未来几年，它会变得更加普及。

And, you know, I think in the years to come, it's going to become more widespread.

你描述了一些人们快速获得缓解的案例。

You've described some examples of people getting relief very quickly.

这些改变有多持久？

How permanent are those changes?

是否需要后续跟进？

Is there a need for follow-up?

那么是否有必要与临床催眠师合作呢？

And then is it necessary to work with a clinical hypnotist?

这样做是否比自我催眠等方式更好呢？

And is it better to do that than self hypnosis and so on and so forth?

大多数人最初会来找我这样的临床医生就诊，最好是选择那些在其专业领域有执照和培训背景的人，他们能真正评估你的问题，确保你不是在说服某人减轻胸痛症状，而忽略了冠状动脉问题。

Most people start by coming to see a clinician like me, it's better to see someone who has licensing and training in their professional discipline, somebody who can really assess what your problem is and make sure that you're not talking someone into reducing their chest pain rather than getting their coronary artery problem.

因为他们可能确实存在这方面的问题。

Because they could have a real issue there.

确实有可能，对吧。

They could, right.

催眠可能会缓解症状，但无法解决更深层的根本问题。

That hypnosis might adjust, but wouldn't deal with the deeper underlying issue.

没错。

That's right.

通常当我为患者使用催眠疗法时，往往只需要一两次或定期治疗，并不需要每周都进行。

And typically when I use it with people, I often only see them once or twice or periodically, but not every week.

当然不需要每天都做，如果他们存在疼痛问题的话。

And certainly not every day if they have a pain problem.

催眠对缓解疼痛非常有帮助。

Hypnosis is very helpful for pain.

所以我的工作是评估他们的催眠感受性。

And so what I'm doing is identifying how hypnotizable they are.

我会给他们做一个简短的标准催眠能力测试，然后带他们完成一次自我催眠练习来处理问题，观察他们的反应，最后教会他们如何自己操作。

I give them a standard brief test of their ability to experience hypnosis, And then going through a self hypnosis exercise with them to deal with the problem, seeing how they respond to it, and then teaching them how to do it for themselves.

现在我们开发了一款名为Reverie的应用程序，可以教导人们并逐步引导他们应对疼痛、压力、注意力问题、失眠，还能帮助人们改善饮食和戒烟。

Now we've developed an app, Reverie, that can teach people and step them through dealing with pain, stress, focus, insomnia, and help people eat better and stop smoking.

我们有大约需要十五分钟的练习模块，也有一两分钟就能完成的简短模块，方便人们随时温习巩固。

And we have elements that take about fifteen minutes and elements that just take one or two minutes that people can refresh and reinforce.

他们-

They-

人类催眠术，对吧

Human hypnosis, right

在一分钟内。

in one minute.

我们发现三分之二的人认为，即使只是一分钟的快速练习也能让他们感觉更好。

And we're finding that two thirds of the people find that even just the one minute refresher helps them feel better.

他们反馈感觉更好了。

They're reporting they feel better.

所以好处是，你很快就能知道它是否可能对你有帮助。

So the nice thing is you will know very quickly whether it's likely to help you or not.

如果确实有效，你可以学会自己操作。

And if it is, you can learn to do it for yourself.

是否有证据表明催眠或自我催眠可用于处理强迫性思维？

Is there any evidence that hypnosis or self hypnosis can be used for dealing with obsessive thoughts?

有时一些强迫症患者恰恰是最不容易被催眠的，这并非偶然。

Sometimes there are some very obsessional people who just turn out not to be that hypnotizable and it's not random.

他们往往对思维过度控制。

They tend to be so over controlling of thought.

他们总是忙于评估而非体验。

They're all busy evaluating rather than experiencing.

我们需要找到一种平衡。

It's kind of a balance we have to hit.

有时我们过于情绪化和投入，以至于无法看到其他可能性，这会成为问题。

And sometimes we get too emotional and too absorbed and you're not with it enough to sort of see other possibilities, that can be a problem.

但另一方面，有时你过于僵化和控制，不让情绪引导你去做该做的事来保护自己或他人。

But on the other hand, sometimes you're too rigid and controlled and you don't let your emotions guide you to what you need to do to protect yourself or protect others.

所以总的来说，强迫症患者处于催眠接受度较低的一端。

So I would say in general that people with OCD are on the less hepatizable side of the spectrum.

他们不太可能让自己投入任何事。典型的例子就是强迫症患者的反复检查行为。

They're less likely to allow themselves to engage in any And the typical example is the checking with OCD, for example.

他们不记得是否锁了门或关了炉子，于是不断返回查看。

They don't remember whether they locked the door or turned off the gas in the oven and they keep going back and they keep checking.

所以在这种情况下，大脑的评估机制会压倒体验机制。

So there the evaluative component of the brain kind of overrides the experiential one.

虽然有些人能从中获益，但他们不是我心目中最适合接受自我催眠疗法的群体。

And sometimes people can get some benefit, but they're not a group that I would select for being the most likely to respond to self hypnotic approaches.

能否请您解释一下什么是催眠易感性，如何评估，以及什么是斯皮格尔眼球转动测试？

Could you please tell us what hypnotizability is, how it's evaluated and what the Spiegel eye roll test is.

催眠易感性就是个体产生催眠体验的能力。

Hypnotizability is just a capacity to have hypnotic experiences.

我们有一种名为'催眠诱导剖面'的测试，通过高度结构化的催眠体验进行评估。

And we have a test called the hypnotic induction profile where we give a highly structured hypnotic experience.

约三分之一的成人完全无法被催眠，剩余人群中约15%具有极高的催眠易感性。

About a third of adults are just not hypnotizable, Two thirds are about fifteen percent are extremely hypnotizable.

我们可以用0到10分的量表进行量化评估。

And we can measure that and give it a number from zero to 10.

这个评估体系非常实用。

And that's very useful.

低到中度催眠易感者需要了解操作原理，但他们同样能获得治疗效果。

People who are low to moderate hypnotizable like explanations about what you're doing, but then they can still get the benefit.

因此这帮助我指导针对这些人的治疗方式。

So it helps me guide the nature of my treatment with these people.

说到眼球上翻，我父亲过去常用一种眼部凝视诱导法。

Now the eye roll is my father used to use an eye fixation induction.

他过去常说，抬头看天花板。

He used to say, look up at the ceiling.

所以正在收听或观看视频的观众们可能会跟着做。

So that people who are listening might end up and watching on video.

斯皮格尔眼球上翻测试需要抬头看天花板。

So the Spiegel Eye Roll test involves looking up at the ceiling.

具体是后仰头部——我现在正后仰下巴看向天花板，同时保持双眼睁开并向上看。

So it's tilting the head back, I'm tilting my chin back and looking up at the ceiling now, but I'm also directing my eyes upward and my eyes are open.

接着眼球上翻测试要求在睁眼状态下闭合眼睑。

Then the eye roll test involves then closing the eyelids while the eyes are open- On eye open.

然后观察眼球是否会向上翻转。

And whether or not the eyes roll back.

正如你所说，然后你会看到巩膜，白色的部分。

And as you said, then you see sclera, the white You see sclera, white part.

这意味着你非常容易被催眠或中等程度可被催眠。

That means you're very hypnotizable or moderately hypnotizable.

而如果眼睛向下移动，在闭眼时看到虹膜（眼睛的有色部分），则较难被催眠。

Whereas if the eyes move down and you see iris, the colored part of the eye, as the eyes close, less hypnotizable.

对。

Right.

你是在要求大脑做一件困难的事——在闭合眼睑的同时保持眼球向上。

You're asking the brain to do something difficult, to keep the eyes up while closing the eyelid.

眼球运动与意识水平有很大关系。

And eye movements have a lot to do with levels of consciousness.

导水管周围灰质环绕着这些颅神经核。

The periaqueductal gray surrounds these cranial nerve nuclei.

当我们睡觉闭眼时，做梦时会有快速眼动。

And when we close our eyes when we sleep, we have rapid eye movement when we dream.

大多数影响意识水平的药物都会影响眼睛和眼球运动，无论是瞳孔扩张还是收缩，取决于它是兴奋剂还是阿片类药物。

Most drugs that affect level of consciousness can affect eyes and eye movements, either the dilation or contraction of the pupils, depending on whether it's a stimulant or an opioid.

有一种古老的禅修练习叫做观想第三只眼，就是向上看内部，仿佛在另外两只眼睛和额头之间还有第三只眼。

And there's an old Zen practice called looking at the third eye, where you're looking up inside, there's like there's a third eye between the other two and your forehead.

我认为这是因为我们是视觉生物。

And I think it's because we're visual creatures.

从生理角度来看，我们其实相当脆弱。

We're pretty pathetic from a physical point of view.

许多动物在奔跑速度、嗅觉或视力上都胜过我们——老鹰能在100码外看清报纸上的字，而我们做不到。

Many animals can outrun us and or out smell us or see eagles could read the newsprint at a 100 yards and we can't.

所以我们主要的防御性感官输入是视觉。

So our major defensive sensory input is vision.

但关键问题是：通常当我们闭上眼睛时，我们就要入睡了。

But the key issue is this, normally when we close our eyes also, we're going to sleep.

你不再担心世界上发生的事情了。

You're not worried about what's going on in the world anymore.

在这里，你保持着休息时的警觉状态。

Here, you're maintaining resting alertness.

你在专注，但转向内在。

You're focusing, but you're turning inward.

这是一种不寻常的状态。

That's an unusual state.

通常我们会周期性地闭眼，这是必须的，但当你长时间闭眼时，通常是为了入睡。

Normally we close our eyes periodically, we have to, but when you close your eyes for some period of time, it's normally to go to sleep.

这时你不再担心察觉风险或威胁。

And you're not worried about detecting risk or threat.

所以这是个有趣的状态，因为你基本上是在转向内在。

So it's an interesting state because you're turning inward basically.

你向上看，闭上眼睛，任由外界发生的一切自然发生，而专注于内在的变化。

You're looking up, you're shutting your eyes and you're allowing whatever happens outside you to happen and focusing on what's going on inward.

所以我认为这是向大脑发出的一个转向内在的信号。

So I think it's a signal to your brain to turn inward.

或许最被低估但能显著改善心理健康、体能表现和认知能力的强大工具之一，就是确保每日充足饮水。

Perhaps one of the most underestimated but powerful tools to improve your mental health, your physical performance, and your cognitive performance is ensuring you get enough hydration every day.

然而不幸的现实是，自来水常含有危害健康的污染物。

The unfortunate reality, however, is that tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health.

因此在我们追求充分补水的同时，这些污染物可能引发严重问题。

So while we're trying to get great hydration, that can cause serious problems.

事实上，环境工作组织2020年研究估计，超两亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触了PFAS化学物质（即永久性化学物质）。

In fact, a 2020 study by the environmental working group estimated that more than two hundred million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals through drinking tap water.

这些永久性化学物质与激素紊乱、肠道菌群失衡、生育问题等重大健康问题相关，其中部分危害刚刚被发现。

These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues, such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems, some of which are just now coming to light.

正因如此，当我发现RoRa净水器时非常激动，现在他们成了本期播客的赞助商。

For all these reasons, I was thrilled when I came across RoRa water filters, and now they're a sponsor of this podcast.

RoRa生产我认为市面上最优秀的净水设备。

RoRa makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market.

我使用RoRa台式净水系统已近一年时间。

I've been using the RoRa countertop system for almost a year now.

Aurora的过滤技术能去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留镁和钙等有益矿物质。

Aurora's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium.

它无需安装或管道改造，极其方便。

It requires no installation or plumbing, it's extremely convenient.

它采用医用级不锈钢材质打造，完美适配您的台面空间。

It's built for medical grade stainless steel, and it fits beautifully on your countertop.

这正是您会想在厨房配备的产品。

It's something that you would want to have in your kitchen.

更让我印象深刻的是Roar的透明度。

What's additionally impressive to me is Roar's transparency.

您可以直接在他们的官网上查看所有独立第三方检测报告，他们还会完整记录过滤器整个使用寿命期间的污染物去除数据。

You can find all of their independent third party test results right on their website, and they report reduction data over the full life of the filter.

如果您想试用RORA，可以访问rora.com/huberman获取专属折扣。

If you'd like to try RORA, you can go to rora.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount.

再次重申，网址是rorra.com/huberman。

Again, that's rora, rorra.com/huberman.