嘉宾系列 | 安迪·加尔平博士：如何增强身体耐力与减脂

因此，我们从中获得了能量。

As a result, we get energy from that.

我们利用这些能量来制造一种叫做ATP的分子，它是所有生物体能量的中心来源。

We use that energy to create a molecule called ATP, which is the central source of energy for any living being.

对吧？

Right?

这些碳随后以游离形式存在于体内，这对身体来说是坏消息。

That carbon is then floating around in free form, which is bad news internally.

所以我们必须找到一种方法将这些碳排出体外。

So we've got to figure out a way to get that carbon out of our system.

因此，所有的能量产生和疲劳管理，本质上都归结为一个核心问题：我们如何处理碳，以及如何在体内运输它？

So all of energy production, all of fatigue management really comes down to this core issue of how are we handling carbon and how are we moving it around the body?

于是，我们做了一件巧妙的事。

And so what we do is we do this sneaky thing.

所以我常问人们的一个问题是：我们为什么要呼吸？

So another question I like to ask people is why do we breathe?

嗯，有两个原因：一是将氧气带入体内，二是排出二氧化碳。但触发呼吸的神经信号是当二氧化碳浓度达到脑干及其他部位神经元的阈值时，激活膈神经或呼吸反射，或两者兼有，从而引发吸气。

Well, for two reasons, to bring oxygen into the system and to offload carbon dioxide, but the neural trigger for breathing is when carbon dioxide hits a threshold level in the set of neurons in the brainstem and elsewhere, activate the phrenic nerve or the gas reflex or a combination of things, and we inhale or inhale.

对，通常情况下，氧气摄入减少并不会刺激呼吸，除非你身处高海拔地区。

Right, So a reduction of oxygen intake generally doesn't stimulate ventilation unless you're at altitude.

那时情况就不同了。

Then that sort of changes.

对吧？

Right?

一般来说，是二氧化碳浓度升高才会刺激呼吸。

In general, it's an elevation in CO two that's gonna stimulate breathing off.

你吸入氧气的主要原因，其实是为了排出二氧化碳。

The only reason you bring in O two for the most part is to get rid of the CO2.

氧气并不是燃料。

Oxygen is not a fuel source.

它不是一种能源，而且这一点在燃烧过程中也是一样的。

It not a way and it works the same with fire, by the way.

所以你知道，火要燃烧必须要有氧气。

So you know you have to have oxygen present for a fire to go.

如果你切断氧气，火就会熄灭，对吧？

And if you squelch oxygen, the fire will go out, right?

这其实只是灭火器工作原理的一半。

That's not half of how those, like, fire extinguishers work.

但我们会因此以为氧气是燃料。

But we think then that means oxygen is the fuel.

它并不是燃料。

It is not the fuel.

它是完全不同的东西。

It is something entirely different.

它是代谢过程得以发生所必需的氧化剂。

It is a necessary pro it is a product that is necessary for the metabolism process to actually occur.

好的。

All right.

所以我们其实一直在围绕一个概念打转，那就是生命的碳循环。

So we're we're kind of dancing around an idea here, which is this carbon cycle of life.

植物通常会吸入人类呼出的气体，同时呼出人类吸入的气体。

So what happens in plants is they generally will breathe in the opposite and breathe out the opposite of humans.

植物会吸入二氧化碳并释放氧气。

So a plant will breathe in CO2 and exhale O2.

这就是为什么我们必须保持一定数量的植物、藻类、森林和树木，以维持我们大气中氧气和二氧化碳的平衡。

Alright, this is why we have to have a certain amount of these things and algae and forests and trees and stuff to maintain this O2CO2 balance in our atmosphere.

而我们则恰恰相反。

We do the opposite.

所以我们拥有一个美妙的生命循环。

So we have this wonderful circle of life.

我们吸入氧气，呼出二氧化碳，而它们则做相反的事。

We breathe in O2, breathe out CO2, they do the opposite.

这是因为碳水化合物和脂肪都是由长链碳构成的。

Well, happens is because carbohydrates are long chains of carbon and fats are as well.

顺便说一下，我们通常对脂肪有这样的理解，但了解它的结构很重要。

Generally, we think about fats, by the way, it's important to understand that structure a little bit.

如果我们考虑甘油三酯，它是由一个三碳骨架——甘油组成的，也就是一、二、三。

So if we think about triglycerides, it is a three carbon backbone chain of glycerol, so it's one, two, three.

从每一个碳上横向延伸出脂肪酸链，对吧？

And horizontally running off of each one of those are fatty acid chains, right?

于是我们形成了一个类似字母E的结构，对吧？

And so we form this structure that looks like an E, right?

就像字母E，后面有三个点，然后从上面伸出三条链。

Like the letter E, three in the back, and then three chains coming off of it.

每一条链都叫做脂肪酸，而每一条脂肪酸都是由一串碳原子组成的。

Each of those chains are called fatty acids, and each of those fatty acids are a length of carbon.

对吧？

Right?

或者说是一连串连接起来的碳原子。

Or a number of carbons strung together.

碳原子的数量决定了它属于哪种脂肪酸。

However many carbons are there determines which type of fatty acid it is.

对吧？

Right?

比如硬脂酸、柠檬酸，或者其他不同数量的种类。

So stearic acid, lemon like acid, like any different number of things.

它还决定了脂肪酸是单不饱和还是多不饱和，这取决于碳链上是否需要一种称为双键的特殊结构。

It's also what determines whether or not it's a monounsaturated or polyunsaturated is if carbon requires a special thing called a double bond.

如果每个碳原子之间都存在双键，那么它们就是完全饱和的，这样很好。

So if there's a double bond across every carbon and carbon, then they're all fully saturated and you're great.

如果其中有任何一个碳链没有双键，举个例子，如果只有一个没有双键，那就被称为单不饱和脂肪酸。

If there's any of them that are not double bonded, in fact, an example, if there is one that doesn't have a double bond, that is now called monounsaturated.

如果有多个这样的位置，就称为多不饱和脂肪酸。

And if there are many, it is called polyunsaturated.

所以这些脂肪酸各有优缺点。

So there's pros and cons to all of these things.

对。

Right.

无论如何，我们讨论的仍然是长碳链。

In either case, we're still talking long carbon chains.

所以植物会吸收碳。

So what a plant will do is bring in carbon.

然后它拥有一个了不起的能力，即利用阳光的能量进行光合作用。

And then it has this wonderful ability to use energy from the sun called photosynthesis.

它能吸收这些碳，并利用阳光的能量形成化学键。

And it can take those carbons that it inhales and use the energy from the sun to form a bond.

在我们之前讨论肌肉肥大时，我们谈到了蛋白质合成所需的能量。

Now in our prior discussion when we were going over hypertrophy, we talked about the energy that was required to go through protein synthesis.

这是因为形成新的原子或原子间的化学键通常需要能量。

That's because forming a new atom or a new bond between atoms oftentimes takes energy.

在这种情况下，确实需要能量。

In this case, it does.

这里的情况也是一样的。

The same thing happens here.

所以，如果植物周围空气中没有氧气或二氧化碳，它就没有燃料。

So if a plant does not have oxygen or does not have carbon dioxide in the air, it has no fuel.

基本上可以认为这就是它的食物。

They basically think about it as that's what it eats.

它需要从地面和土壤中获取氮。

It needs to get nitrogen from the ground and the soil.

就像我们需要从蛋白质中获取氮一样。

Just like we need to get nitrogen from our protein.

但在燃料方面，它需要获取二氧化碳。

But fuel wise, it needs to get carbon dioxide.

然后它需要阳光提供能量，以便能够真正形成那种化学键。

Then it needs sun to give it energy so that it can actually form that bond.

对吧？

Right?

这就是它获取能量的来源。

That's what it's getting its fuel from.

对吧？

Right?

所以如果我们考虑一种典型的植物，它会产生淀粉或水果，以下是发生的过程。

So if we think about, a classic plant produce the plant that produces either a starch or a fruit, here's what happens.

它吸收这些碳，然后开始将其储存起来。

It inhales that carbon, and then it starts packing it away.

对于根茎类蔬菜，它会把这些物质储存在一起。

Now in a root vegetable, what it does is it stores those things together.

如果我们储存这种物质，并在它的底部长出果实，我们通常称这些东西为淀粉。

And if we store that thing and we grow fruit at the bottom of it, we tend to call those things starches.

明白吗？

Alright?

然后它会将储存在根部的碳输送到树干上。

It's going to then take the carbon that is packed away in its root and send it up the tree.

它会通过将这些物质分解成更小的碳水化合物形式来实现这一点，我们通常称之为蔗糖和葡萄糖。

And it's gonna actually do that by breaking it down into a smaller form of carbohydrate that we tend to often call things like sucrose and glucose.

它会将这些物质输送到树上，送到叶子，然后将其转化为果实。

It'll ship that up the tree, it'll go out to the leaves, and it'll convert it into the fruit.

最终，它会把这些物质转化为更小的碳化合物，称为果糖。

And it's gonna eventually transform that stuff into smaller carbon things called fructose.

如果我们考虑水果或水果中的糖分，它们通常以果糖、蔗糖或它们的组合形式存在，有时也包含葡萄糖。

And if we think about the fruit, or the sugar in fruit, it's often in the form of fructose or sucrose or a combination and sometimes glucose.

因此，我们有这些通常以葡萄糖形式存在的六碳小分子，它们是由我们称为淀粉的更大碳水化合物储存转化而来的。

So we have these smaller carbon six carbon chains generally in the form of glucose that are being made from this larger storage of, carbohydrates that we call, starch.

对吧？

Right?

所以它们被一起储存起来。

So it's packed in together.

你的身体也做着完全相同的事情。

Your body does the exact same thing.

所以如果是一个土豆，里面储存了大量的葡萄糖，我们就称它为淀粉。

So if it's a potato and it has a whole bunch of glucose packed away, we call that starch.

如果是在你的股四头肌里储存了大量葡萄糖，我们就称它为糖原。

If it's in your quadricep and we pack about a whole bunch of glucose away, we now call it glycogen.

如果它以六碳链的形式存在于血液中，我们就称它为葡萄糖。

If it's in your blood as that six carbon chain, we call it glucose.

如果它存在于树木和果实中，我们就称它为果糖。

If it's in the tree and in the fruit, we call it fructose.

对吧？

Right?

这些都是不同的分子。

Those are different molecules.

但本质上发生的是同样的事情。

But that's effectively the same thing happens.

所以生物学或化学过程几乎是相同的，只是方向相反。

So the biology or the chemistry is almost identical, just runs in the reverse order.

这就是为什么块茎和土豆之类的食物通常是淀粉，而水果则含有葡萄糖、果糖和蔗糖。

And that's why, again, tubers and potatoes and stuff tend to be starches and fruits tend to be glucose, fructose, and sucrose.

所以我们拥有这个美妙的光能循环。

So we have this wonderful circle of light.

植物只需吸收二氧化碳并从阳光中获取能量就能生存。

The plants can survive on just breathing in the CO2 and then getting energy from the sun.

但我们人类，据我所知，并不具备进行光合作用的能力。

We don't have that ability, at least to my knowledge, to run through photosynthesis.

因此，我们唯一能将碳摄入体内的方法就是直接摄取碳，这意味着我们必须吃淀粉、水果、动物或其他形式的储存碳，才能让碳进入我们的身体。

So the only way we can get carbon into our system is to actually ingest carbon, which means we have to eat the starch, the fruit, the animal, some other form of stored carbon to get that into our system.

然后我们将这些碳储存起来。

We then pack that away.

正如你之前提到的，我们会将碳水化合物储存在肝脏、血液或肌肉中。

We put the carbohydrates, as you mentioned earlier, either in our liver, our blood, or in our muscles.

我们通常将脂肪储存在脂肪组织中。

We put the fat generally in adipose tissue.

我们还会在肌细胞中储存少量的肌内甘油三酯，而蛋白质则主要用于构建结构，用来完成各种功能。

We'll put a little bit in muscle cells as intramuscular triglycerides, and then the protein we'll use as structure, right, to do different things.

我们并不倾向于把蛋白质当作材料或燃料使用。

We don't like to use protein as material or fuel.

它更适合用于结构构建。

It's better use of structure.

如果我们突然发现体内的储存过多，换句话说，我们体重增加得太快，就必须想办法把体内的碳排出体外。

And what we have to do then is if all of a sudden we realize that storage is getting too much in our body, in other words, we're gaining too much weight, we have to figure out how to get the carbons out of our body.

这就是新陈代谢，对吧？

And that is metabolism, Right?

每当我们分解碳键以获取能量来合成ATP时，都会将碳从组织释放到血液中。

Anytime we're trying to break a carbon bonds that we can get energy to make ATP, that's gonna release the carbon out of our tissue into the blood.

我们需要吸入氧气，使碳分子结合形成二氧化碳，以便通过呼气将其排回大气中。

We have to bring in oxygen to bind that carbon molecule to make CO2 so that we can exhale it and put it back into the atmosphere.

这是对人类身体中生命循环和能量利用的精彩描述。

That's a beautiful description of the circle of life and energy utilization in the human body.

我必须问一个我相信很多人都想知道的问题：如果我们确实通过呼气排出这些碳原子，而脂肪流失正是在热量摄入不足状态下通过这种方式实现的，那么是否有人研究过延长或加强呼气能否加速脂肪流失？

I have to ask the question that I'm sure many people are wondering about, which is if indeed we exhale these carbons, and as it relates to fat loss, that is the way that we lose fat if we're in a subcaloric state, for instance, has it ever been explored as to whether increasing the duration or intensity of exhales can accelerate fat loss?

我的意思是，这确实是您所描述内容的逻辑延伸，而我同样感兴趣的是，答案究竟是肯定的，还是否定的。

I mean, that's sort of the logical extension of what you described, and here I'm actually interested equally in whether or not the answer is yes, as well as whether it could be no.

因为如果答案是肯定的，那么可能会衍生出一些有趣的干预方案；但如果答案是否定的，这将揭示我们代谢和能量利用中的某些重要瓶颈。

Because I could imagine if the answer is yes, well then there's some interesting protocols to emerge from that, but that if it's no, it will reveal to us some important bottlenecks about metabolism and energy utilization.

你有没有见过那些魔术师，他们一登场就能说出你妈妈的名字之类的东西，因为他们能巧妙地引导你，嗯，一步步陷入他们的圈套

You ever seen those magicians who like show up and they can tell your mom's name or something like that before you, because they can sort of lead Yeah, you down a

我的意思是，我们不必深入这个离题的细节，但我曾经去过洛杉矶的魔法城堡，我是被叫上台的观众之一，一位名叫奥兹·明德（Ozzy Mind）的惊人魔术师——我觉得名字是这个——让我用记号笔在卡片上写下我的名字。

mean, not to take us down a deep dive tangent, but I once went to the Magic Castle in Los Angeles, and I was one of the people called up front, and an incredible magician named, I think his name was Ozzy Mind or something, I think that's right, had me write my name on a card in a Sharpie pen.

我把卡片撕碎，扔进我的口袋，过了十到十五分钟，他表演完其他几个魔术后，让我查看右脚的鞋子，结果在我右脚的鞋底下面，那张卡片完好无损地躺着。

I ripped up the card, I ripped it up, I put it in my pocket, and at the end of the ten or fifteen minute bout of him doing a bunch of other tricks, he asked me to look in my right shoe and under my foot in my right shoe was that card intact.

是的。

Yeah.

它不再在我口袋里了，我向你保证，这绝对不是和他串通的托儿

And it was no longer in my pocket, and I swear in my life, wasn't a collaborator with

他。

him.

是的。

Yeah.

直到今天，它仍然让我毛骨悚然，因为我不知道魔术究竟是怎么做到的。

And to this day, it still gives me chills because it Well, I don't know how Magic.

对，魔术嘛。

Yeah, right, magic.

我这么说的原因是，我在课堂上已经无数次讲过刚才那段话了。

Well, the reason I say that is I've given that little spiel that I just gave you countless times in my classes.

而且我敢说，99%的情况下，我一说完，第一个问题就是：那我能不能多做几次呼气来减脂？

And I would say 99% of the time, as soon as I stop, the very first question is, so can I just like do a bunch of exhales and lose fat?

这太棒了，因为我其实特别希望你能问这个问题，而你正好掉进了我的陷阱。

Which is wonderful because I was really hoping you would do that and you rolled right into my trap.

你完美地接住了。

You landed perfectly.

所以我在那边看起来像个魔术师。

So I look like a magician over here.

我感觉我现在应该看看我的右鞋。

I feel like I should look in my right shoe right now.

不，我问这个问题是因为它是你所阐述内容的逻辑延伸，但我知道生物学既狡猾又隐秘，但同时也精妙绝伦，你不可能不劳而获。

No, I asked the question because it's the logical extension of what you laid out, but I know biology to be both diabolical and cryptic, but also exquisite in the way that things are arranged, and you don't get something for nothing.

生理学里没有免费的通行证。

There are no free passes in physiology.

这就是常说的：没有免费的通行证。

That's the saying, no free passes.

你问题的答案是：是的，百分之百是的。

The answer to your question is yes, A 100% yes.

事实上，这正是唯一正确的方法。

In fact, that is the only way to go about it.

你有两个选择。

You have two options.

你可以摄入更少的碳，或者排出更多的碳。

You can ingest less carbon, or you can expel more carbon.

人们总是说热量摄入与热量消耗。

People always say calories in, calories out.

实际上应该是碳输入与碳输出，这就是卡路里的本质，对吧？

It's really carbon in, carbon That's what a calorie is, right?

卡路里是指断裂一个碳键所释放的能量。

Calorie is the amount of energy we get per breaking a carbon bond.

所以本质上是减少输入，增加输出。

So it's really less in, less more out.

减少输入这一点相当明显，无论以何种形式摄入。

Less in is fairly obvious, whether that comes in any form.

顺便说一下，这正是为什么你摄入的脂肪或碳水化合物所占比例其实并没有那么重要。

And by the way, this is exactly why the percentage of your intake coming from fats or carbohydrate, it doesn't really matter that much.

如果你查看减脂的临床试验，你们可能在莱恩在这里时已经讨论过这个话题了，我肯定他经常提到这一点。

If you look at fat loss clinical trials, you guys may have covered this when Lane was in here, I'm sure, like this is something he talks about a lot.

这并不重要。

It doesn't matter.

这无关紧要，因为根本不是这个问题。

It's irrelevant because it's not about that.

这些东西没什么神奇之处。

There's nothing magic in those things.

它们是不同的，会引起不同的生理反应。

They are different, they have different physiological responses.

所有东西都不一样，对吧？

Everything is different, right?

毫无疑问。

No doubt.

但总的来说，关键只是碳的摄入量。

But in general, it's just simply about carbon intake.

事实证明，每摩尔脂肪所含的碳原子比碳水化合物多得多。

Turns out fat has a lot more carbons per mole than carbohydrates do.

所以每摩尔里面的热量更多。

So there's more calories per mole in there.

因此，所需的脂肪物理量较少，而碳水化合物的物理量则需要更多。

So if you the physical amount of fat needs to come in as a smaller amount, physical amount of carbohydrates needs to come in will come in as a larger amount.

但你可以选择任何一种高碳水、低脂肪的饮食方式。

But you can play any number of very high carb, low fat.

重要的是什么？

What matters?

总热量，对吧？

Total calories, right?

当然，这不是唯一重要的事，但你知道我的意思吧？

Again, it's not like the only thing that matters, but you know what I'm saying?

某些比例的饮食方式在减脂方面效果非常好。

Some percentages in the way can go fat loss works fantastic.

高脂肪、低碳水化合物。

High fat, low carbohydrate.

为什么？

Why?

为什么？

Why?

为什么这些方法都有效？

Why do all these things work?

因为这跟那个无关。

Because it's not about that.

关键是碳的总摄入量，总的燃料消耗。

It's about total intake of carbon, total ex fuel.

所以，你真的能通过多呼出二氧化碳来减脂吗？

So absolutely can you lose fat by simply exhaling more?

事实上，你今天早上就是这么做的。

In fact, that is exactly what you did this morning.

当我骑上动感单车时

When I hopped on the aerodyne bike

为了微不足道的任何事。

for little anything.

对吧？

Right?

问题是，你能想到一种情况，其中呼气速率的增加有助于减脂吗？

The question is, can you think of a scenario in which you could have a bunch of increased rates of exhalation that helps in fat loss.

当然。

Sure.

我能想到很多能刺激呼吸频率增加的方法。

I can think of a lot of things that will stimulate increased rates of inhal exhalation.

一件事就是直接去运动。

One thing could be simply going right?

所以问题是，我能不能通过一些呼吸训练，强制呼气来减脂？

And so the question is like, can I literally do some breath protocols where I force exhale and lose fat?

答案是肯定的。

And the answer is yes.

但会发生什么？

But what happens?

如果你进行过度通气训练，会发生什么？

What happens if you do hyperventilation training?

我的实验室将循环性过度通气作为我们众多刻意训练方案之一进行研究。

Well, my lab studies cyclic hyperventilation as one of our many deliberate protocols.

其中最显著的现象之一是肾上腺素水平会迅速上升。

And one of the most prominent things that one observes is that levels of adrenaline increase very quickly.

非常迅速。

Extremely quickly.

人们会感到心悸、焦虑、紧张，除非他们有意识地去理解这种感觉的意义以及坚持下去的好处，否则通常会很快中止循环性过度通气训练。

People feel jittery, anxious, stressed, and unless they are consciously trying to anchor their thinking about what that means and the benefit set to persisting, typically they abort the cyclic hyperventilation protocol really quickly.

几秒钟内。

Within seconds.

对吧？

Right?

你会感到刺痛、出汗，各种各样的感觉。

You will feel tingling, sweating, all kinds of things.

你在过度换气，对吧？

You're hyperventilating, right?

我们反复谈论过度换气如何改变从肾上腺素到专注力等一系列东西。

And we talk at nauseam about how that changes everything from adrenaline to focus, to a whole bunch of things.

所以不幸的是，仅仅通过多呼气少吸气的方式来减脂，虽然从技术上讲有助于燃烧更多脂肪，但这种做法很难持久。

So unfortunately, a strategy of sitting around, just exhaling more than you inhale, technically helps you lose more fat, but it's not going to last very long.

那么问题来了，我该如何创造一种情境，在这种情境下我能提高呼气速率，又不会晕倒，也不会引发低碳酸血症或高碳酸血症的问题？

So then the question is, well, how do I get into situation or a scenario in which I can increase my rate of expiration where I'm not gonna pass out and I'm not going and altering hypocapnia and hypercapnia issues?

你有没有想过，在什么情况下你会加快呼气速率，却不用担心会晕倒？

Any idea of a situation in which you would have an enhanced rate of expiration without worrying about passing out?

没错。

True.

稳态运动。

Steady state exercise.

或者不是稳态运动。

Or not steady state exercise.

举重、间歇训练、中等强度训练，反复进行。

Lifting weights, intervals, moderate training, repeated.

这些方法在减脂方面效果都一样，因为它们都只是提高了呼吸速率。

Any of these things, they all work equally for fat loss, because all they're doing is increasing respiration rate.

它们说的是能量需求增加，呼气量增加。

They're saying increased demand for energy, increased exhalation.

这就是关键所在。

That's the trick here.

当你把这些因素与这一点联系起来时，它们在减脂上的成功率是相等的。

And when you equate these things to that, they have equal success in fat loss.

理论上，你从哪里获得这些效果并不重要。

It doesn't matter theoretically where you're getting it from.

因此，当我们探讨减脂的最佳训练策略时，只要你能长期坚持，选择哪种方法其实都无所谓，正是基于这个原因。

And so when we get into this idea of, well, what are the best training strategies for fat loss, it doesn't matter which one of these tactics you pick as long as you maintain a consistent adherence over time because of this exact fact.

不管你运动时燃烧的是所谓的脂肪，还是燃烧碳水化合物，都没关系。

It doesn't matter if you're burning quote unquote fat in the exercise session or if you're burning carbohydrates in the exercise session.

这对你长期的净脂肪流失完全无关紧要。

It is totally irrelevant to your net fat loss over time.

好吧，我刚才说的这些内容存在一些严重的误解，我很乐意回头详细解释一下。

Okay, now there's some significant misconceptions there about what I just talked, and I would love to come back and walk through that in more detail.

但这就是这里最重要的核心信息。

But that's the main take home message here.

无论摄入什么，也无论排出什么，都不重要，因为无论哪种情况，氧气的摄入量和二氧化碳的排出量都是一样的。

It won't matter what's coming in, and it won't matter what's coming out because in either case, it is the same rate of oxygen in and CO2 out.

这才是关键指标。

That's the key metric.

希望这能帮很多人松一口气，因为他们一直纠结于：究竟什么样的训练方案才是优化脂肪流失的精确方法？

And hopefully this helps a lot of people have some relief because they're like, man, you're so tied up on what is the exact protocol for training for optimizing fat loss.

对于脂肪流失，我到底需要什么样的精确营养干预？

What's the exact nutritional intervention I need for fat loss?

那你就会疑惑，为什么这么多不同的饮食方法都能有效。

And then you wonder why all these different diets can work effectively.

也会好奇，为什么这么多不同的训练方式——你肯定认识某个人，他只是一开始跑步就减了很多体重。

And wonder why all these different training protocols, and surely you know somebody who lost a bunch of weight and the only thing they did is they just started running.

根本没有复杂的训练方案。

There was no advanced protocol.

他只是开始跑步，每天跑五英里。

They just started running and they ran five miles every day.

这管用。

That works.

然后有大量人尝试了这种方法，却一点都没瘦下来。

And then tons of people who tried that and like didn't lose anything.

还有很多人去上了有氧搏击课，结果减了体重。

And lots of people who went to, I went to cardio kickboxing class, lost weight.

哦，我刚开始做间歇训练，为什么这些方法都有效？

Oh, I just started doing intervals on my Mysteriously, do all these things work?

你有没有感觉到，你的大脑里一定有什么在提醒你，这些事情之间一定存在某种联系。

There there you have something has some spidey sense has to has to be going off in your brain where, like, there has to be something linking these things.

而连接它们的，其实就是碳交换。

And what's linking it is simply carbon exchange.

所以，让自己处于一种呼出多于吸入的状态，但又不至于晕过去。

So put yourself in a position in which you are exhaling more than you and inhaling without passing out.

另一个问题是，如果你只是单纯地进行某种呼吸训练，让呼气速率上升，之后你的身体就会自我调节，转而朝相反方向调整。

The other problem is if you were to simply do a breathing protocol while the rate of exhalation would go up, After that, you would correct and go in the opposite direction.

所以问题在于，除非你增加能量需求，否则你一整天的净碳排放量是不会改变的。

So that's the problem is your net carbon output over the course of day is not going to change unless you increase the demand for energy.

而这就是你进入负向状态的方式。

And that's how you get into that negative state.

关于通过呼出二氧化碳来减脂这一点，让我想知道，增加肺活量是否可能——我猜答案是肯定的，而且增加肺活量是否是一个好的目标，能否成为促进减脂的有效途径。

Along these lines of exhaling carbons as the route for fat loss, it makes me wonder whether or not increasing lung capacity is possible, I'm guessing the answer is yes, and whether or not increasing lung capacity is a good goal and route to enhancing fat loss.

换句话说，如果你能通过每次呼气排出更多的二氧化碳，你是不是就变成了一个更高效的减脂机器？

Essentially, I'm asking is if you can offload more CO2, carbons per exhale, are you a more efficient fat loss machine?

这是个很棒的想法，但答案是否定的。

It's a wonderful thought, and the answer would be no.

你不需要担心这个，因为如果你呼出的碳比实际需要的还多，那就进入了低效状态。

Not something you need to worry about because if you were to exhale more carbon than actually needed, now we're in a state of inefficiency.

你消耗的能量远远超过了完成活动所需的量。

You're burning way more energy than needed to do your activity.

心脏有一个指标，叫做心输出量。

The heart has a metric called cardiac output.

在科学领域，我们出于某些奇怪的原因用 Q 来缩写它。

This is in science, we abbreviate this as q for some odd reasons.

它要么是 CO，要么是 Q。

It's either c o or q.

心输出量等于心率乘以每搏输出量。

And cardiac output is heart rate multiplied by stroke volume.

也就是说，你每分钟的心跳次数，以及每次心跳泵出的血量。

So it's how many beats per minute you're having as well as how much blood's coming out of it.

因此，心输出量实际上与能量需求密切相关。

So cardiac output is actually very specific to energy needs.

如果你试图绕过这一点，它会自动调整。

If you try to work around that, it's just going to adjust itself.

所以我的意思是，如果你能增加每搏输出量，也就是每次心跳泵出的血量，你的身体会自动降低心率，以保持心输出量与能量需求完全匹配。

So what I mean by this is if you were able to increase your stroke volumes, the amount of blood coming out per pump, you would automatically adjust to reduce your heart rate so that you keep cardiac output exact to energetic demands.

因此，你相当于在光谱的一端施加压力，但你的身体会拉回另一端，让你维持在相同的中性水平。

So you're sort of pushing one end of the spectrum, but your body will pull the other one back to keep you at that exact same neutral level.

所以，如果你考虑耐力训练对心血管系统的适应性变化，任何类型的耐力训练，人们普遍了解的一个现象就是静息心率。

So if you look at, if you think about like cardiovascular adaptations to endurance training, any type of endurance training, a common thing people will understand is resting heart rate.

这个数值指的是你坐着什么也不做的时候，每分钟的心跳次数。

And so what that number is is just how many beats per minute you're having when you're sitting here doing nothing.

一个非常积极的适应性变化是，随着时间推移，静息心率会降低。

A very positive adaptation is a lowering of that resting rate over time.

一般来说，你常听到的说法是，正常静息心率在每分钟60到80次之间。

As general numbers, what you will hear is people will say things like a normal resting heart rate is between 60 to 80 beats per minute.

而且，我要澄清一下，我所提到的那些与我合作的个体，我并不与任何患有疾病的人合作。

And, you know, if any of the things I've talked about with the individuals I work with I don't work with anybody with disease, just to clarify that.

我从不涉及任何疾病管理或治疗。

I don't do anything with disease management treatment, anything.

我的工作对象始终是那些状态良好、希望进一步优化或提升到下一个层次的人，无论是追求体能巅峰的职业运动员，还是参加我们快速健康优化项目、感觉状态不错的普通人。

It's always about people who are in a good spot who want to optimize or get to the next level, whether this is professional athletes trying to peak for physical performance or, the folks in our rapid health optimization program that feel good.

再次强调，这跟疾病无关，他们只是想感觉超棒。

Again, it's not disease stuff, they wanna feel incredible.

我们将会关注的一个指标就是静息心率。

One of the metrics we're gonna pay attention to is this resting heart rate.

以下是会发生的情况。

So here's what happens.

随着你耐力的提升，你的静息心率会下降。

As you improve your endurance, your resting heart rate will go down.

如果我看到某人的静息心率超过每分钟70次，除非有其他特殊情况，否则说明你的体能并不好。

If I see somebody over 70 beats per minute, unless something's going on, you're not physically fit.

不管这是否在所谓的正常范围内，我都希望每个人的心率都能低于60次/分钟，或者接近这个水平。

Regardless of whether or not that is quote unquote within the normative values, I wanna see everybody sub 60 beats per minute or close.

对吧？

Right?

对大多数人来说，达到这个目标并不难。

That is not a difficult thing to really get to for most people.

所以，如果你经常锻炼，无论你是进行间歇训练还是稳态训练，都没关系，你的静息心率都会下降。

So if you train a lot, regardless of how you train intervals, steady state, doesn't matter, that resting heart rate will come down.

但由于静息时的能量需求并没有真正改变，心脏输出量保持不变。

But since energy demands at rest haven't really changed, cardiac output stays the same.

因此，每搏输出量会增加。

So what happens is stroke volume goes up.

就像我们用腿举机训练你的股四头肌，让它们在每次收缩时产生更大的力量一样，心脏也会做完全相同的事情。

So literally, like we trained your quadriceps on the Legostenser machine to get stronger, so you can produce more force per contraction, the heart will do the exact same thing.

当你能让心脏每次搏动泵出更多血液时，心脏就会意识到：我不需要跳得那么频繁了。

And so as you're able to get more of the blood out of your heart per pump, the heart realizes I don't need to pump as often.

所以这是一种代偿性适应，意思是：嘿，你看，我不需要每分钟跳60次了。

So that's the compensatory adaptation, which is saying, hey, look, I don't need to beat 60 times a minute.

我现在每分钟跳55次就够了，因为每次搏动泵出的血量一样，放松点。

I now need to beat 55 times a minute because I'm getting the same amount of blood out per pump, chill.

这就是为什么你的静息心率下降，静息每搏输出量上升，但心输出量保持不变。

And this is why your resting heart rate goes down, your resting stroke volume goes up, but your cardiac output is identical.

所以这并不是衡量体能的好指标。

So that's not a good metric of fitness.

它会保持不变。

It's going to stay the same.

心输出量只会根据能量需求的变化而调整，对吧？

Cardiac output will only adjust per energetic changes, Right?

是急性时刻的能量需求。

Energy requirements in the acute moment.

对吧？

Right?

我需要多少？

How much do I need?

开始吧。

Go.

这将由通气量决定。

Which is going to be determined by ventilation.

对吧？

Right?

我吸入和呼出多少空气？

How much air am I bringing in and putting out?

这将决定心输出量，也决定我们所处的状态。

That's going to determine cardiac output, and that's going to determine where we're at.

如果你在体能差时和体能好时，或者体能好时和超级健康时进行次最大运动测试，在次最大强度下，你会看到相同的结果。

If you were to do like a submaximal exercise test, when you were unfit to when you're fit, or when you're fit to where you're super fit, at sub max, you're gonna see the same thing.

心输出量将保持不变，你会想：天啊，什么都没变。

Cardiac output will be identical and you're like, damn, nothing happened.

你没有意识到的是，在同样的负荷下，你的心率现在降低了。

What you're not realizing is your heart rate at that same workload is now lower.

这就是效率的体现，因为你的每搏输出量提高了。

And that's efficiency because your stroke volume is higher.

让人困惑的地方在于最大强度时，你可能看不到太多变化，因为随着体能提升，最大心率并不会明显增加。

Where it gets people tripped up is at max because you may not see much of a change at max because you don't really see an increase in maximum heart rate with fitness.

这不是真的，对吧？

That's not a thing, right?

所以最大心率并不能作为体能好坏的可靠指标。

So maximum heart rate is not a good proxy for fit or unfit or anything like that.

每搏输出量最终会受到心脏充盈能力的限制。

Stroke volume will get limited eventually by filling capacity of your heart.

心脏必须有足够的时间来充满血液，然后才能再次收缩并将血液泵出。

It has to have so much time to fill up with blood before it can contract again and squeeze the blood out.

当你的心率达到每分钟200次时，留给心脏充盈的时间就非常少了。

And when you have a heart rate of 200 beats per minute, that just doesn't leave much time to fill.

因此，它并不会真正让你超过这个限度。

And so it won't really push you past that.

所以不必担心如何提高你的最大心率。

So don't worry about trying to increase your maximum heart rate.

这并不一定是好事，而且也不会有太大变化。

That's not necessarily a good thing and it won't really change.

但你的每搏输出量会增加，因为每搏输出量会更高。

But your cardiac output will because stroke volume will be higher.

但这并不意味着我应该避免那些能让我心率达到最大的训练，对吧？

But that doesn't necessarily mean that I should avoid training that gets me up toward maximal heart rate, correct?

哦，你绝对应该去做。

Oh, you should absolutely do it.

对，这正是我的想法。

Right, that was my assumption.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商Athletic Greens。

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, Athletic Greens.

Athletic Greens 是一种含有维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原的饮品，旨在帮助你满足所有基础营养需求。

Athletic Greens is a vitamin mineral probiotic and adaptogen drink designed to help you meet all of your foundational nutritional needs.

自2012年以来，我每天都在服用 Athletic Greens，因此我很高兴它成为本播客的赞助商。

I've been taking Athletic Greens daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're a sponsor of this podcast.

我开始服用 Athletic Greens 以及至今仍每天服用一到两次的原因，是它能帮助我满足所有基础营养需求。

The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or twice a day is that it helps me meet all of my foundational nutritional needs.

也就是说，它涵盖了我所需的维生素、矿物质，而益生菌对我来说尤其重要。

That is, it covers my vitamins, my minerals, and the probiotics are especially important to me.

Athletic Greens 还含有适应原，这些成分对于从压力、运动、工作或日常生活的压力中恢复至关重要。

Athletic Greens also contains adaptogens, which are critical for recovering from stress, from exercise, from work, or just general life.

如果你想尝试 Athletic Greens，可以访问 athleticgreens.com/huberman 来领取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

他们会赠送你五份免费的旅行装，以及一整年的维生素D3和K2补充剂。

They'll give you five free travel packs, and they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin d three k two.

再次提醒，如果你想尝试 Athletic Greens，请访问 athleticgreens.com/huberman 领取特别优惠。

Again, if you'd to try Athletic Greens, go to athleticgreens.com/huberman to claim the special offer.

回到能量产生和新陈代谢的话题。

Getting back to energy production and metabolism.

我们有不同的能量转移方式，但身体内能量键的形成与断裂、能量在不同组织间的移动，以及通过呼气将能量排出体外。

So we've got these different modes of moving energy, but making and breaking energy bonds in the body, moving energy into different tissues and out of different tissues, and indeed out of the body through exhalation.

这些不同的能量利用方式如何与各种运动和锻炼方式相关联？

How do each of these different modes of energy utilization relate to different modes of movement and exercise?

是的。

Yeah.

在我的想法中，我开始将两者联系起来：比如，当我散步六十分钟时，如果你在说话，呼吸会稍微加快，或许会燃烧更多脂肪。

In my mind, I'm starting to draw a bridge between, okay, when I walk for sixty minutes, you know, if I'm talking, I'm breathing a bit more, maybe I'm burning a little more fat.

毕竟

After all

说话是对呼气的调整。

speech is modified exhale.

那是和

That's And

如果我冲刺，我的呼吸方式会不同；如果我进行三十分钟中等强度的慢跑，我的呼吸方式也会不同。

if I'm sprinting, I'm breathing differently, and if I'm, you know, doing a thirty minute moderate, quote unquote moderate jog, I'm breathing differently.

你非常生动地展示了能量生产与利用和通过呼气排出二氧化碳之间的联系。

So you've beautifully illustrated this bridge between energy production utilization and carbon dioxide offload through exhalation.

根据不同的运动方式，能量利用的具体情况有哪些？

What are some of the specifics about energy utilization according to different modes of exercise?

如果我们能更好地定义那些触发特定适应性的运动模式或类型，我认为这座桥梁将从一条简单的线演变为真正的结构。

And if we could better define modes of exercise or types of exercise that trigger specific adaptations, I think this is where the bridge will move from being a mere line to a real structure.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

我想再奠定一个基础性概念，之后你就能更容易理解我对某些训练方案设定的限制，以及为何有些地方没有限制。

I want to lay one more foundational piece, and then it's going to be much easier to understand the limitations I put on some of these training protocols, as well as the lack of limitations.

好吧，这真的非常重要。

Okay, so it's really, really important.

我想这样开始：我们现在已经有了碳和基本能量生产的基础。

The way I want to start this is we have this foundation now of carbon and basic energy production.

这并不是说没有区别。

That's not to say there's no difference.

确实有区别，而且这个区别很重要。

There is, and that difference is important.

但也许我们可以回答之前的问题，这其实是你今天早上我们锻炼时问我的。

But maybe we can answer the question from earlier, which is actually something you asked me this morning when we were exercising.

你当时说，空腹训练。

You're like, training fasted.

对吧？

Right?

空腹训练能促进脂肪燃烧吗？

Does training fasted enhance fat loss?

这个逻辑是合理的。

And the logic is sound.

如果我没有能量摄入，那我就应该燃烧更多的脂肪。

If I don't have any fuel, then I should be burning more fat.

因此，我应该减掉更多的脂肪。

Therefore, I should be losing more fat.

这听起来有道理。

It's sound.

但这并不正确。

It's not true.

这是个很好的想法。

It's a great idea.

这是科学和运动生理学中一类经典的说法，听起来很有道理。

It's one of these classic things in science and exercise physiology where you're like, sounds good.

结果却发现并非如此。

Turns out it's not.

这实际上是對代謝的一種嚴重誤解。

It's actually a pretty gross misunderstanding of metabolism.

所以并不是要专门挑这个话题来批评。

So it's not to pick on that topic.

我对这个话题其实并不关心。

I don't really care about that topic.

但这确实是个常见问题。

But it's a common question.

它也给了我一个机会，向你更多地讲解一下新陈代谢。

It also gives me an opportunity to just tell you more about metabolism.

所以事情是这样的。

So here's what happens.

你吸入氧气，呼出二氧化碳。

You are breathing in o two and breathing out c o two.

然而，这两者之间的比例被称为RER（呼吸交换比）或RQ（呼吸商）。

However, the ratio to that is what we call the either RER, respiratory exchange ratio, or RQ, respiratory quotient.

我不会区分这两者，它们并不完全相同，但我们现在先跳过这一点。

And I'm not gonna differentiate those two, they're not the same thing, but we're gonna skip past that for now.

当你开始增加运动强度时，氧气与二氧化碳的比例会向二氧化碳倾斜。

As you begin to increase exercise intensity, the percentage of o two to c o two rises in the favor of c o two.

所以你开始呼出的二氧化碳远多于吸入的氧气，对吧？

So you start breathing out way more CO2 than you are breathing in O2, right?

如果我们来看这个数值，你知道它们之间的关系是什么吗？

And so if we were to look at that number, you know, what's the relationship?

数值会上升。

Echoes up.

在静息状态下，大多数人会有大约0.6的数值。

So at rest, most people have a value that we would typically call something like 0.6.

明白吗？

Okay?

这仍然是氧气和二氧化碳之间的比例关系。

And that's, again, the relationship between o two and c o two.

也许是0.7。

Maybe 0.7.

如果你去散步，这个数值会略微上升，因为你此时呼出的二氧化碳速率更高了。

If you were to go for a walk, that increases slightly because you're now expiring c o two at a higher rate.

所以现在你已经上升到大约0.8了。

So now you've moved up to say point eight or something like that.

我们判断一个人在测试中达到真正的VO2最大值的一种方法是，如果这个数值超过1.1。

One of the ways that we mark somebody of achieving an actual v o two max on a test is if that value exceeds 1.1.

现在，任何认真听的人可能会想：等等，不对吧。

Now any of you who are paying attention are thinking, well, wait a minute.

两个东西的比率怎么可能超过1呢？

How the hell can a ratio between two things ever get past one?

这是因为你已经进入了一个状态，正在排出比实际需要更多的二氧化碳。

Well, that's because you're getting to a place where you're actually offloading more CO2 than is actually necessary.

而这正是导致并解释了人们常说的EPOC——运动后过量氧耗的原因。

And this is what actually causes and explains a thing that people like to call EPOC, which is excess exercise post oxygen consumption.

这是另一种思考方式。

This is another way to think about it.

你呼吸的唯一原因，就是为了吸入氧气以排出二氧化碳，对吧？

The only reason you're breathing is to bring in oxygen when offloads CO2, right?

如果我不再运动了，为什么还在呼吸？

If I'm no longer exercising, why am I still breathing?

换句话说，一旦你停止了对能量的需求，你就应该停止通气。

In other words, once you stop the demand or the need for for energy, you should stop ventilating.

但你并没有。

But you don't.

对吧？

Right?

这是因为，在低强度运动的情况下，你一停下，通气就立刻回到静息水平。

And that's because in the case of low intensity exercise, the second you stop, you're right back down to resting ventilation.

没问题。

No problem.

因为你在运动过程中能够将能量需求与废物排出精确匹配。

Because you were able to match the need for energy with the offload of waste one to one during that exercise.

但当你逐渐提高运动强度时，就做不到这一点了。

When you start creeping up the intensity, you can't do that.

所以你基本上得从别处偷一点能量来补足。

So you have to basically start stealing a little bit of fuel here.

因此，即使你已经停止锻炼，你仍然在呼吸，因为你得还这笔债。

So even though you're done exercising, you're still ventilating because you have to pay that back.

而所谓还这笔债，具体来说就是你需要吸入更多氧气。

And pay that back by that, specifically mean you have to bring in oxygen.

因为你的组织里积累了一大堆废物，你得处理掉它们。

Because you have a whole bunch of waste that's been accumulating in your tissue that you've got to deal with.

我会带你了解一下这些废物是什么。

And I'll walk you through what that waste is.

这是一种很多人听说过但严重误解的分子。

It's a particular molecule that a lot of people have heard of, but grossly misunderstand.

所以你必须能够应对它。

So you gotta be able to handle that.

因此，你之所以继续呼吸，是因为你正在偿还运动后过量的氧气债务。

So the reason that you sit there and go and continue to ventilate is because you're now trying to pay back that excess post exercise oxygen debt.

我们具体说的就是这种氧债。

That's that oxygen debt we're specifically talking about.

好的。

All right.

所以说到这里，当我们开始加速上升时，RRQ就开始不断上升、上升、上升、上升、上升。

So that being said, as we start cruising up, that RRQ starts going up, up, up, up, up, up, up.

如果我们达到1.0，那你就是处于一种很痛苦的状态。

And if we get to one point zero, you're a, like you're hurting.

你正处于一个不错的状态。

You're in a pretty good spot.

好的。

All right.

我喜欢这样。

I like it.

你正在受苦。

You're hurting.

你处于一个很好的状态。

You're in a pretty good spot.

是的。

Yeah.

有

There's

一个了解安迪·加尔平博士思想的窗口。

a window into Doctor.

安迪·加尔平博士的思维窗口。

Andy Galpin's mind.

现在你真的想成为他实验室研究的受试者。

Now you really want to be subject in his laboratory studies.

当然。

Sure.

自虐狂们蜂拥而至，来到安迪的实验室。

Masochists swarmed to Andy's lab.

当然。

Absolutely.

好的。

All right.

所以，认为通过进行燃烧更多脂肪的运动就能减掉更多脂肪，这听起来似乎有道理，但实际上是对新陈代谢的严重误解。

So the idea that I will lose more fat by being in an exercise situation that is burning more fat, it seems to make sense, but it's a massive failure to understand the metabolism.

这和空腹运动无关紧要的原因完全相同。

It's the exact same explanation to why exercising fasted doesn't matter.

在正常情况下，空腹运动这个问题是无关紧要的，因为即使你那天早上没吃早餐，你的体内也仍有充足的能量储备。

So the exercising fasted issue under normal circumstances is irrelevant because you have plenty of fuel in the system even when you haven't eaten breakfast that morning.

但如果你说的是持续数天的长时间禁食，那就是另一种情况了。

Now if you're talking like extended fasting over multiple days, this is a different scenario.

如果肌肉糖原、肝糖原和血糖水平都足够，那么你绝对拥有足够的能量来完成大多数人所进行的任何类型的运动。

If muscle glycogen, liver glycogen, and blood glucose are at sufficient levels, then you absolutely have enough energy to perform almost any type of exercise that most people are doing.

你知道，也许如果你是罗布，今天正跑到第20英里，那就是另一回事了。

You know, maybe if you're Rob and you're at Mile 20 today, it's a different story.

但我们大多数人身上都有充足的能量储备，所以即使那天早上没吃早餐，也不会因此燃烧更多脂肪。

But the vast majority of us have plenty of fuel sitting around, so we're not going to burn more into fat just because we didn't eat breakfast that morning.

所以这在能量学上根本说不通。

So that just doesn't make energetic sense.

我们有大量的后备能源，你永远不会耗尽。

We have a lot of backup supplies, you're never out.

这里的要点是，有一个我们称之为‘交叉概念’的理论。

The trick here is this, is there's a there's a concept here we call crossover concept.

当我们逐渐提高运动强度时，身体会更多地依赖碳水化合物作为能量来源，而减少脂肪的供能比例。

So as we are starting to move up exercise intensity, we start burning a higher percentage of our fuel from carbohydrates and a lower percentage of our fuel coming from fat.

我正在睡觉。

I'm sleeping.

这是你任何活动中脂肪供能比例最高的状态。

That's the highest percentage of your fuel that will be coming from fat of any activity you could ever do.

所以，如果认为通过低强度运动能燃烧更多脂肪的理论成立，那么最佳的燃脂策略就应该是睡觉。

So if the theory that I'm gonna stay at a lower intensity to burn more fat was true, the optimal fat burning strategy would then be to sleep.

这根本说不通。

Like, that doesn't make sense.

当然说不通。

Of course it doesn't.

那么，为什么稍微提高一点强度，就会突然神奇地让你减脂呢？

So why would then going at a slightly elevated rate somehow all of a sudden magically make you lose fat?

这实际上毫无道理。

It doesn't actually make sense.

当你仔细想想，就会觉得，哦，这根本不可能。

When you think about that, were like, oh yeah, there's no way.

这其实是个百分比的把戏。

So it's a percentage trick.

这是绝对值和相对值之间的区别。

It's a difference between absolute and relative.

这就是这种混淆的根源。

This is what this confusion is.

所以，当你开始进行低强度运动时，无论你速度快不快，这都无关紧要。

So yes, as you start doing lower intensity exercise, whether you're fast or not, it's irrelevant.

但低强度运动时，你身体消耗的能量中来自脂肪的占比更高。

But lower intensity exercise, a greater percentage of your fuel is coming from fat.

然而，你的总能量消耗却非常低。

However, your total fuel expenditure is very low.

因此，整体的碳平衡并没有发生明显变化。

So that whole total carbon balance is not really being shifted much.

当你开始进行高强度运动时，实际上你身体消耗的能量中来自碳水化合物的比例会上升，而来自脂肪的比例会下降。

As you start exercising at a very high intensity, you actually start getting a higher percentage of your fuel from carbohydrate and a lower percentage from fat.

事实上，在静息状态下，大多数人能 Achieve 的最高脂肪供能比例大约是60%。

In fact, at rest, about the highest you can get in most people is about 60% of your fuel from fat.

睡觉时你可能达到70%，但无论你在网上听到什么说法，你永远不可能处于脂肪是唯一能量来源的状态。

As you're sleeping, you might be 70%, but you'll never be in a position ever, no matter what sort of thing you've heard on the internet, you'll never be in a situation where fat is your only fuel source.

我见过的最高比例大概就是70%。

The highest I've probably ever seen is like 70%.

你大概应该保持在这个水平。

You should probably be at about that.

说实话，这个数字挺不错的。

That's a kind of a good number to think, honestly.

但那些对新陈代谢略知一二却又不够深入的人，会随意使用像‘脂肪适应’这样的术语。

But people who understand a little bit about metabolism to be dangerous, but not enough will throw out these terms like fat adapted.

‘脂肪适应’确实存在，但很多时候这是一个巨大的误解，对吧？

And fat adapted is a real thing, but it is a massive misunderstanding oftentimes, right?

它指的是这样一种想法：我可以达到一个最大化脂肪燃烧的状态。

It is this idea of thinking like, I can get into a spot where I'm maximizing fat burning.

最大化脂肪燃烧、最大化运动时的脂肪利用，以及长期最大化脂肪减耗，这三者根本不是一回事，对吧？

Maximizing fat burning and maximizing fat for exercise and maximizing fat loss over time are not the same thing at all, right?

这就是混淆的来源。

That's the confusion.

所以，如果你在运动中提升了脂肪氧化能力，并不等于就能直接促进脂肪减耗，对吧？

So if you enhance fat oxidation and exercise, that does not enhance fat loss per se, right?

所以这就是目前很多困惑的根源，对吧？

So this is a lot of the confusion that's happening, right?

因此，随着我们逐步提高强度，我们永远无法达到仅使用脂肪作为燃料的状态。

So as we start moving up, we can never get in a position where we're using fat only as a fuel.

再次强调，在最佳情况下，你的能量来源比例是70%的脂肪和30%的碳水化合物，这其中有很多原因，我们今天可能没时间深入探讨。

Again, at best you're at 70% fat, 30% carbohydrate, for a lot of reasons we probably just don't have time to get into today.

然而，相反的情况是可能的。

However, the opposite is possible.

当你进行真正的高强度运动时，基本上会100%依赖碳水化合物，0%依赖脂肪。

When you get into true high intensity exercise, you'll be basically 100% carbohydrate and 0% fat.

对吧？

Right?

这完全有可能。

That is very possible.

实际上，这正是要点之一。

That in fact is one point o.

我们Q1.1的实际原因是，你的通气量变得非常高，即使你完全依赖碳水化合物供能，也已经超过了那个数值。

What our Q1.1 is actually because your ventilation got so high, you actually exceeded that number, even though you're at a 100% carbohydrate.

这就是为什么人们会得出这样的想法：天啊，我不想燃烧碳水化合物。

This is what people came up with the idea then is like, woah, I don't want to burn carbs.

我想减脂。

I want to lose fat.

所以我的回应总是：好的，没问题。

So my response to that is always like, okay, great.

这听起来是有道理的。

So it makes sense.

燃烧脂肪，减掉脂肪。

Burning fat, losing fat.

那燃烧碳水化合物，又是在减掉什么呢？

Burning carbs is losing what then?

你想想，你的肝脏变小了？

Like, think your liver shrunk?

等等。

Like, wait a minute.

那你到底减了什么？

What did you lose then?

它从哪儿来的？

Where did it come from?

全部都是以碳的形式排出的。

It's all coming as carbon.

别担心你的能量来源是哪儿来的。

Don't worry about where it came from for your fuel.

只要最终以碳的形式排出就行，对吧？

It just has to come out as carbon, right?

当然，对于专业运动员来说，运动效率在表现上是有差异的。

There are differences in exercise efficiency for performance with our professional athletes, of course.

但如果这里唯一的目标是减脂，那来源并不重要。

But if the only goal here is fat loss, it doesn't matter where you get it from.

我们这里需要连接的最后一座桥，其实就是一分钟的事。

The last bridge we have to connect here is like, well, a minute.

如果我只消耗了碳水化合物，那我怎么会减掉脂肪呢？

If I only burned carbohydrate, how did I actually lose that fat?

看我腰边这些赘肉。

There that love handle sitting on the side of me.

如果我从来没把脂肪当燃料消耗，那它们是怎么从我身上消失的？

How did that come out of me if I never burned that for my fuel?

你没理解的是，这里其实发生着一种平衡机制。

What you're failing to understand is there's a balance game that happens here.

所以，如果你进行大量高强度训练，只消耗了肌糖原和血糖，甚至可能因为持续时间太长而消耗了一些肝糖原。

So if you were to do a bunch of high intensity exercise training, and you burned only muscle glycogen and blood glucose, and maybe even you did it for so long you burned some liver glycogen.

身体明白，它已经从这一侧释放了大量的能量。

The body understands that it has expelled a lot of energy from that side of the equation.

它会做几件事。

It's going to do a couple of things.

现在要经历这种将碳水化合物转化为脂肪再转化回来的复杂情况是非常困难的。

Now it's very difficult to go through this fancy situation where you convert carbohydrates into fat and back and forth.

这实际上相当困难。

Like that's actually like fairly hard.

而更容易做到的是，像你之前提到的那样，将能量平衡转向另一种燃料来源。

What's easier to do with something you said earlier is actually just bias energetics to a different fuel source.

所以在你碳水化合物储备极低的情况下，你摄入的任何碳水化合物都会被储存起来。

So in that scenario where you're down really low in your carbohydrate stores, any carbohydrates you bring in are going to go to storage.

而由于你的净能量消耗是身体高度调控的，你随后摄入的任何脂肪都会被用作燃料，因为身体知道它不再需要这些脂肪。

And since your net energy expenditure is something that your body regulates a lot, any fat that you then bring in is going to be utilized as a fuel source because it knows it doesn't need it anymore.

这些是多余的。

That is in excess.

所以这就是你如何利用脂肪作为燃料的原因——因为你已经耗尽了碳水化合物的储备。

So that's how you actually use fat as a fuel because you've burned down carbohydrate storages.

听你这么说，我想到几件事。

As I'm hearing this, a couple of things come to mind.

首先，感谢你对这一通常让大多数人感到困惑的领域所做的极其重要的阐述。

First of all, thank you for that incredibly important description of what is otherwise a very confusing landscape for most people.

我从中得出的一个关键观点是，我要从一开始就说明，这绝不是全面的：燃烧脂肪并不等于从体内减掉脂肪。

One of the key points I took away, and I just want to say from the outset, this is not exhaustive by any stretch, is that burning fat does not equal losing fat from the body.

没错。

Correct.

然后，燃烧脂肪必须区分为燃烧体内脂肪储备，以及燃烧摄入的膳食脂肪，我们需要明确区分这两者。

And then burning fat has to be divided into burning of body fat stores, and we need to distinguish that from burning of dietary fat that is brought in.

没错。

Correct.

人们常常没有区分这两者。

Oftentimes people don't disambiguate those.

没错。

Correct.

对吧？

Right?

我也理解到，在高强度运动期间，人体的碳水化合物储备，如肌肉糖原和肝糖原等，会减少。

And I'm also understanding that reducing one's body carbohydrate stores, muscle glycogen, liver glycogen, etcetera, occurs during high intensity exercise.

是的。

Yep.

此外，

As well

还有其他方式，但高强度运动确实是高效利用这些储备的一种方法，这让我不禁想，这是否能形成某种训练方案？我想知道，比如先进行45到60分钟，甚至75分钟的力量训练、力量训练或增肌训练——这些我们在之前的节目中已经讨论过——然后再进行一些稳态有氧运动，这种安排是否真的能更有效地促进身体脂肪的减少？现在我要说得非常明确：不同于空腹训练能促进脂肪燃烧这种说法——你已经告诉我们，这种说法并不成立——在这些情况下，肌肉糖原甚至肝糖原都可能已被耗尽。

as other ways, but that is one very efficient way to tap into those stores, which makes me wonder, again, is one of these things that does it lead to a protocol, makes me wonder whether or not doing high intensity, let's say weight training for forty five to sixty minutes, seventy five minutes of strength training, power training, hypertrophy training, which we've covered in an episode about those topics, and then doing some steady state cardiovascular exercise, is there any benefit to that arrangement that would quote unquote enhance body fat loss from the body, to be very specific now, because unlike the idea that training fasted would shift the bias towards fat loss, which it doesn't, you've told us, Under those conditions, muscle glycogen and maybe even liver glycogen is going to be depleted.

简单来说，我在力量训练后做些有氧运动，能更有效地减少身体脂肪吗？

Put simply, can I enhance body fat loss by doing some cardio after a bout of weight training?

如果总能量消耗相同，那就不重要。

If you equate for total energy expenditure, it won't matter.

不过，你提到了一个非常重要的观点，我想澄清一下。

Now, you did bring up a very important point that I want to clarify.

如果我们回顾之前讨论中提到的运动模式，我们曾谈到九种不同的适应性变化。

If you look at the exercise modalities that we laid out in our previous conversations, we talked about nine different adaptations.

一是技能，然后是速度、爆发力、力量、肌肉肥大、肌肉耐力、无氧能力、有氧能力以及长时耐力。

One was skill, and then speed, power, strength, hypertrophy, muscular endurance, anaerobic capacity, aerobic capacity, and long duration endurance.

而速度、爆发力和技能发展对减脂几乎没有益处。

Now speed, power, and skill development have almost no benefit for fat loss.

因为要记住，这些训练的特点是低重量、长间歇和低训练量。

Because remember, those are low weight, a lot of rest, and low volume.

它们实际上并不会带来什么帮助。

They're not really really going to be helpful.

你可以为力量训练稍微辩护一下，但力量训练的总能量消耗，即使是一个小时，如果真的是力量训练，那是相当低的。

You can make a little bit of a case for strength, a little bit, but the total energy expenditure for strength training, even if it's an hour, if it's truly strength training, it's fairly low.

因为重复次数在一到三次的范围内。

Because the repetitions are in the one to three range.

正是如此。

That's exactly.

这还不足以达到总量。所以，如果你想制定一个能优化减脂的方案，你刚才说的已经很接近了。

It's not enough for total So if you're trying to develop a protocol that sort of optimizes fat loss, what you want to do, you were close.