嘉宾系列 | 安迪·加尔平博士：增强力量与增长肌肉的最优方案

取出组织。

Taking tissue out.

是的，你需要一根针，它看起来基本上像一支笔，你活着，然后进去取一小块组织，再拉出来，我能去你的实验室做活检吗？

Yeah, you want the needle, it looks like a pen basically and you, you know, you're alive and you go in and grab a chunk and you pull it out and Can I come to

你的实验室和

your lab and

做活检？

get biopsy?

当然可以。

Absolutely.

是的，如果你在显微镜下观察，它看起来可能就像咖啡因分子一样。

Yeah, you're probably, if it looking under the microscope, it'll just look like the molecule caffeine.

我们有一个共同的朋友下来做过这个。

There's a mutual friend of ours who came down and did that.

他是个非常非常大的人物，热衷于举重，特别喜欢力量训练。

He's a big, big, big gentleman, big into lifting, very into strength training.

他经历了这个过程，结果发现这并不是他原本期待的结果。

And he went through that experience and he was like, oh my gosh, it was not what he was hoping to get.

他的肌肉形态简直不可思议。

He actually had unbelievable muscle morphology.

他的肌纤维直径非常大。

His fibers were, the diameter of muscle fibers is extremely large.

骨骼肌是人类生物学中体积最大的细胞之一。

It's one of the biggest cells by volume in all of biology, skeletal muscle in human.

有多大？

How large?

我忍不住想知道。

Can't help myself.

毫米？

Millimeters?

嗯，你得考虑长度和宽度，对吧？

Well, you have length and then you have width, right?

从长度上看，它们可以异常长。

So lengthwise they can be extraordinarily long.

比如经典的例子是缝匠肌，从髋部前侧延伸到膝盖内侧。

You can be, the classic example is like your sartorius, which is like the front of your hip to the inside of your kneecap.

理论上，这些细胞可以贯穿整个长度，形成一根完整的肌纤维。

Theoretically, those cells can run the entire length, which would be one muscle fiber running that thing.

如果我给你做一次活检，取出组织后，我真可以用镊子夹出一根单独的肌纤维，举起来给你看，整个肌细胞都清晰可见。

If I were to do a biopsy on you and I pull that tissue out, I could actually pull an individual fiber out with tweezers and hold it up and you could see that whole muscle cell.

是的，我肯定不会允许自己做活检。

Yeah, definitely not gonna be allowed to get biopsied.

你会惊讶于它们有多大。

You'd be stunned how big they are.

不管怎样，他的肌肉尺寸大得像犀牛。

Anyways, his was the size of a rhino.

所以，他的肌纤维直径——现在他在肌肉增长领域有明确的辅助记录，我们这么说吧。

So the diameter of his, now he has a well documented assistance in the area of muscle growth, we'll say.

但这些肌肉纤维确实可以很大。

But yeah, those can be large.

所以我们刚才在谈什么来着？

So what were we even talking about there?

我之前在问肌腱和韧带的事，因为我想了解当一个人变强、肌肉组织增长时，各种组织和器官系统是如何适应的。

Well, was asking about tendons and ligaments because I'd like to understand the various tissues and organ systems that adapt when one gets stronger, when muscle tissue grows.

我还想问一下骨骼的问题。

And I do want to ask about bone.

是的。

Yeah.

这里我说的不是骨矿物质，我想问的是骨骼本身能否生长并变得更强壮。

And here I'm not referring to What bone mineral I was going to ask is whether or not bone itself can grow and get stronger.

我问这个问题是因为有一个我特别喜欢的研究结果。

And the reason I'm asking is there's a favorite result of mine.

我有大约3800个特别喜欢的研究结果，3000个讨厌的地方，以及3800多个特别喜欢的研究结果。

I have about 3,800 favorite results, 3,000 pet peeves and 3,800 plus favorite results.

但我最喜爱的研究成果之一来自哥伦比亚大学的埃里克·金德尔实验室。

But one of my favorite results is from Eric Kindel's lab at Columbia.

埃里克因学习与记忆方面的研究获得了诺贝尔奖，他的实验室深入研究了运动对学习和记忆的影响。

Eric won the Nobel Prize for learning and memory, and his laboratory got really into the effects of exercise on learning and memory.

是的。

Yeah.

他们得到了一项惊人的发现：负重运动能刺激骨骼释放一种叫做骨钙素的物质，抱歉，而骨钙素作为一种类似激素的物质，会进入大脑，通过增强神经元的健康来提升大脑的记忆功能。

And they had this incredible result, which is that load bearing exercise stimulates the bones to release something called osteocalcin, excuse me, and then osteocalcin acts as a more or less a hormone, travels to the brain and enhances the memory systems in the brain by enhancing neuron health.

这就是这些研究的核心内容。

That's the basic crux of the studies.

这类研究有好几项。

There were several of these.

当我第一次看到这些研究时，我就想：这又是另一个支持进行抗阻训练而非仅做有氧运动的理由。

And the moment I saw the first of those studies, I thought, well, here's another reason to do resistance type exercise and not just aerobic exercise.

这让我想到，当我们进行抗阻训练时，骨骼本身是否会变得更加强壮。

And then it brings to mind whether or not bones themselves get stronger when we do resistance training.

我不知道答案是

I don't know the answer to

是的，这一点已经得到了明确的证实。

Yeah, that's very clearly demonstrated.

这一点我们已经知道很多年了。

And we've known that for many decades.

随着年龄增长，你的这种能力会下降，尤其是在青少年和二十多岁时需要进行这类锻炼。

You have a diminishing ability to do so with age, particularly you need to do this in your teens and 20s.

这是你提升骨矿物质密度能力最强的时期。

That's where you're to have the largest ability to enhance bone mineral density.

而且骨骼对轴向负荷特别敏感。

And it's particularly responsive to axial loading.

我是个肌肉专家，不是骨科专家，所以我们得请教能更精确回答你的人。

Now I'm a muscle guy, I'm not a bone specialist, so we would have to consult somebody who can give you more precision here.

那

That's

你能解释一下轴向负荷吗？

you explain the axial loading?

是上下方向的，是垂直的。

It's up and down, it's vertical.

好的，所以这几乎像一个圆柱体的压力，重量施加在圆柱体的小端上，两个小端都有。

Okay, so it's almost like a cylinder pressure, weight on the small end of the cylinder, on both small end of the cylinders.

是的。

Yeah.

但如果一个人在十几岁或二十几岁的时候没有这样做，我们能否假设，如果他们进行抗阻训练，即使只是很小的一部分，也会产生一定程度的积极变化？

If someone doesn't do this in their 20s or teens, however, can we assume that some degree of positive change will occur if they do resistance training, even if it's a small fraction?

答案是肯定的，但效果很小。

The answer is yes, it is small.

在我们的快速健康项目中，我们接触过许多女性，她们在二十多岁和三十多岁时就存在显著的骨矿物质密度问题。

We have worked with a number of women in our rapid health program that come in and they are in their 20s and they're in their 30s and they have significant bone mineral density problems.

八个月后，我们可以观察到明显的变化，这些变化超出了双能X射线吸收测定法的测量误差范围。

And eight months later, we can see noticeable changes that are outside of the measurement error of a DEXA.

积极的变化。

Positive changes.

积极的变化，没错。

Positive changes, correct.

如果你找一些专门研究这个领域的医生合作的话。

And if you worked with the there are many physicians that specialize in this area.

你需要关注营养问题。

You're going to need a nutrition here.

单靠力量训练可能不足以达到目标，尤其是对女性而言，因为你必须弄清楚原因。

Strength training alone is probably not going to get you there, particularly with women because you have to figure out why.

生理和生化方面有很多因素在起作用。

And there's a lot going on with the physiology and biochemistry.

所以你几乎肯定需要做一些血液化学检测。

So you probably like almost surely needed to have some blood chemistry done with that.

你必须弄清楚月经周期方面的情况。

You have to figure out what's going on menstrual cycle wise.

事实上，我们通常会为女性专门使用一种叫做Rhythm Plus的30天检测方法。

In fact, like oftentimes what we'll do for our women very specifically is we use a thing called the Rhythm Plus, a thirty day test.

你可以在整个月经周期内进行唾液检测。

You So can actually do a salivary test across the entire menstrual cycle.

你可以每隔一天采集一次样本。

And you can take samples, it's about every other day.

这样你就能获得大约15到16个样本。

So you'll get 15 or 16 samples.

从而全面了解整个月经周期中激素的变化情况。

And you get a really beautiful picture of what's happening hormonally across the entire menstrual cycle.

这非常重要，因为对女性而言，如果只采集单次样本或某个时间点的样本——无论是唾液、尿液还是血液——由于所处的生理阶段不同，各项指标的数值可能会相差一个数量级。

And that's really, really important because typically for women, if you get a single sample or a simple time point, whether it's salivary, urine or blood, you can have, well, like an order of magnitude difference in any number of metrics because of what phase they're in.

这也是为什么在女性生理学研究中面临诸多挑战的原因之一。

This is one of the many reasons why it's been such a challenge to do a lot of physiology research with females.

有些指标在月经周期中会变化，而另一些则不会。

Some metrics change throughout the menstrual cycle, others don't.

比如力量就是一个很好的例子。

Like strength is a very good example.

我可以随时对女性进行一次最大重复次数测试。

Can strengthen and I can do a one rep max test on a woman at any point.

我不必在她们月经周期的某个特定阶段进行测试，因为我认为目前的证据已经相当明确了。

I don't have to do that at a certain phase of their menstrual cycle because the evidence I think is pretty clear at this point.

这个数值不会改变。

That number won't change.

因此，我在任何以力量作为重要因变量的研究中都毫无顾虑地纳入女性，因为我不必围绕月经周期进行调整。

So I have no qualms including females in any of my studies where strength is an important dependent variable because I don't have to adjust around menstrual cycle.

其他因素，比如血液中的任何指标、任何与激素相关的指标，你都必须自动加以考虑。

Other factors like anything in blood, anything hormone related, you're gonna have to automatically account for it.

所以我想说的是，这些人绝对应该与合格的医生合作，可能还需要进行营养补充，甚至可能涉及其他一些措施，这让情况变得更加复杂。

So what I would say is those folks should absolutely work with a qualified physician and you're gonna have to get some nutrition supplementation potentially and then maybe even some other stuff going on to make that even more complicated.

无论你是否使用任何类型的避孕措施，这都会改变整个局面，尤其是如果是激素类避孕药的话。

If you're on any form of birth control or not, that's going to change the entire equation, especially if it's a hormone based birth control.

所以这变得非常非常复杂。

So it just gets really, really complicated.

不过要回答这个问题，你可以看到适应性变化。

To answer it though, you can see adaptations.

与你在十几岁和二十几岁开始训练相比，这些变化明显减弱了，但仍有希望。

They are significantly diminished relative to if you were started in your teens and 20s, but there is hope.

你只需要找一位专门研究这一领域的专业人士合作。

You just need to work with somebody who specializes in that area.

那么对于男性和女性、男孩和女孩来说，促成力量提升的主要适应性变化有哪些？

So for both men and women, boys and girls, what are the major adaptations that occur to underlie improvements in strength?

如果你能提供一个要点列表，然后我们可以逐一深入探讨每个要点。

And if you would, if you could just provide a bullet point list of that, and then we can dive into each of those in detail.

例如，神经系统的放电效率是否提高了？

For instance, are nerves getting more efficient at firing?

骨骼和结缔组织之间的关系是否发生了有利于力量提升的适应性变化？

Are bones enjoying adaptations in different bone connective tissue relationships that underlie strength?

我不得不想象所有这些都在发生，但究竟是哪些器官和器官系统发生了主要变化，使得一个人某天能举起100磅，一周后就能举起105磅？

I have to imagine all of these things are happening, but what are the major changes that are occurring in those organs and organ systems that reflect someone's ability to on one day lift, you know, a 100 pounds then a week later lift 105 pounds?

我会尽量简洁地讲。

I'll try to keep this condensed.

这本可以是一整门大学课程。

Again, this could be an entire university course.

我也会给你提供一些基础要点。

I will also try to give you a little bit of bones here.

通常作为研究肌肉的人，我会把所有功劳都归于肌肉。

So normally as a muscle guy, I take all the credit in muscle.

但事实证明，神经系统在这里也占了一部分功劳。

Turns out the nervous system gets a little bit of credit too here.

谢谢。

Thank you.

所以，从宏观角度来看，如果我们思考是什么引发了人体运动，那么这条链条上的每一个环节都会提升力量训练的效果。

So as we walk through it just as a big picture, if we think about again what causes human movement, basically everything along that chain will improve the strength training.

我在这里并没有夸大其词。

And I'm not really using too much hyperbole there.

这确实令人印象深刻。

It's quite impressive.

从神经系统这一方面来看，要产生人体运动，神经必须通过一个运动单位发送信号。

Going from the nervous system side of the equation, what has to happen for human movement is a nerve has to send a signal through a motor unit.

一个运动单位向下延伸并支配多条肌纤维。

Now a motor unit comes down and innervates multiple muscle fibers.

所以，如果你想象你的实际肌肉，它并不是一个单一的整体。

So if you think about your actual muscle, it's not a thing.

它是由许多单独的肌纤维组成的。

It is a component of many individual muscle fibers.

你拥有数百万条，甚至更多。

So you've got millions, if not more.

把它想象成一条马尾辫。

Think of it like a ponytail.

所以我们统称为马尾辫，你会觉得它是一个整体。

So we collectively say ponytail and you think of it as like one thing.

但事实上，马尾辫是由大量单独的头发组成的，明白吗？

But really a ponytail is a combination of tons of individual hairs, okay?

肌肉也是同样的道理。

Muscle is the same way.

所以这个运动单位会进来，支配许多不同的肌纤维。

So this motor unit comes in and innervates a lot of different muscle fibers.

现在，一个运动单位中的每根纤维通常属于同一种纤维类型。

Now every one of the fibers in a motor unit is generally of the same fiber type.

也就是快肌纤维或慢肌纤维。

So fast twitch or slow twitch.

它们在肌肉中并不是彼此相邻排列的。

And they are not laid out next to each other in the muscle.

它们在水平、垂直方向上都有分布，有的靠近骨骼，有的靠近表面。

They are spread out across horizontally, vertically, as well as closer to the bone and further to the surface.

所以它们在整个过程中被均匀分布。

So they're moved throughout the entire way.

这正是让你的收缩更平滑，而不会出现痉挛之类问题的原因。

And this is what allows you to have smoother contractions and you don't have spasticity and things like that.

因此，我们在神经肌肉方面看到了如放电频率的改善。

So we see improvements from the neuromuscular side like firing rate.

我们还观察到同步性的提升正在发生。

We see synchronization improvements that are coming in.

你还会看到突触前神经元释放乙酰胆碱的改善。

You also see improvements in things like acetylcholine release from the presynaptic neuron.

所以你的反应速度更快了。

So you're getting it faster.

我们发现钙离子的再循环也得到了改善。

We see calcium recycling is improved back to there.

为了不深入太多生化细节，神经向肌肉传递信号时，中间存在一个微小的间隙。

Order for, without walking into too much of the biochemistry, in order for a signal to go from nerve to muscle, there's a little bit of a gap.

这里存在一个物理空间。

There's a physical space that happens.

发生的情况是，你会释放一种叫做乙酰胆碱的分子。

And what happens is you release this molecule called acetylcholine.

它进入突触后间隙，然后与受体结合。

This goes into the postsynaptic cleft and then that actually binds to a receptor.

这个受体会打开一扇门，让钠离子进入。

That receptor actually opens up a door that lets sodium in.

这实际上就是正在发生的事情。

That's really what's happening.

所以，并不是乙酰胆碱本身。

So it's not the acetylcholine.

乙酰胆碱会停留在那个受体位点上。

Well, that acetylcholine then sits on that receptor site.

它会被分解，重新回收并返回到突触前神经末梢。

It's broken down, put back in and recycled back up in the presynaptic nerve site.

你越快完成这个过程，就能越快回收这个信号。

The faster you can do that, the faster you can recycle that signal.

因此，我所描述的整个系统中的几乎所有方面都会得到改善，并且已被证明会随着训练而增强。

And so almost everything that I described in that entire system improves and has been shown to increase with tranny.

仅这一点就足以为你带来益处。

So that alone is given to give you benefits.

我们还没有谈到从电信号转变为动作电位，而动作电位将引发肌肉收缩。

We haven't even walked into getting from an electrical signal now into an action potential which is gonna cause a muscle contraction.

从神经到肌肉的传递过程中，我们观察到各种改善，我们称之为收缩力提升，这意味着肌纤维本身能在不改变肌肉体积的情况下产生更大的力量或更快的速度。

So getting from nerve into the muscle, we see everything from improvements that we call contractility, which means the muscle fiber themselves can produce more force or more velocity independent of muscle size changes.

当我们问‘为什么我变强了却没有变大’时，这是另一个关键因素。

This is another component when we ask like, well, how is that I got stronger without getting bigger?

肌纤维自身的收缩能力增强了。

Well, the muscle fiber itself, its ability to contract force increases.

这是因为我们拥有像肌浆网这样的结构，它负责储存和释放钙离子，而钙离子是肌球蛋白和肌动蛋白之间横桥相互作用所必需的。

And this because we have everything like the sarcoplasmic sarcoplasmic reticulum, which is the place that stores and releases the calcium, which is what's needed for this entire cross bridge interaction from the myosin and actin to happen.

我知道很多人已经跟不上了，但你们可以去看看这些图片。

I know a lot of, I just lost a lot of people, but you can go look at some of these images.

肌浆网的激活程度提高了。

The sarcoplasmic reticulum gets activated more.

它变得更加敏感。

It gets more sensitive.

它在释放钙离子、将其重新摄取以及重复这一过程方面表现得更好。

It is better at releasing calcium, bringing it back in and doing it again.

肌球蛋白和肌动蛋白之间的横桥结合变得更牢固。

The bond between the crossbridge of the myosin and actin gets stronger.

我们在这里使用的术语是钙离子亲和力增强了。

The calcium affinity is the phrase that we use there, increases.

因此，我们正在逐步讲解骨骼肌收缩的整个过程，而每一步都显示出改善。

So we're literally walking through almost the entire process of skeletal muscle contraction here and every step along the way we see improvement.

因此，最终结果是，我们再次观察到，在不改变肌肉大小、不增加收缩单位的情况下，力量输出增加了。

So that net result is we see, again, more force production independent of any change in size, independent of any increase in contractile units.

我们没有在方程式中添加任何东西。

We didn't add anything to the equation.

我们没有改变大小。

We didn't change size.

我们只是提高了效率。

We did nothing but improve efficiency effectively.

除此之外，我们现在可以开始讨论改变肌纤维类型了。

Independent of that, now we can actually start talking about changing muscle fiber type.

我们可以将肌纤维从慢缩纤维转变为快缩纤维。

So we can change our fibers from a slow twitch fiber to a fast twitch fiber.

光是这一点就能再次让你产生更多的力量，与大小无关。

That alone is gonna give you more force production again, independent of size.

快缩纤维通常比慢缩纤维更大，但并不总是如此，尤其是在耐力训练的情况下。

Fast twitch fibers tend to be larger than slow twitch fibers, but not always, especially in the presence of endurance training.

如果你进行大量持续的耐力训练，发现慢缩纤维的大小与快缩纤维相似，甚至更大，这非常常见，通常快缩纤维反而更小。

So if you do a lot of consistent endurance training, it's very common for us to find slow twitch fibers that are as similar size, if not larger, often very often larger than the fast twitch fibers.

你有很多慢肌纤维。

You do Big a lot of slow fibers.

大而慢的纤维，代谢效率非常高。

Big slow, very metabolically effective fibers.

因此极其抗疲劳。

So extremely fatigue resistant.

所以称它们为慢肌并没什么不好。

So it's not a bad thing to call them slow.

我们往往觉得‘快’是好的，‘慢’却带有负面含义。

It's like we tend to say fast is slow and slow has this negative connotation.

但这种肌纤维类型其实非常健康。

But it's like quite healthy like fiber type to have.

除此之外，我们甚至还没谈到肌纤维的羽状角。

Outside of that, now we haven't even gotten into things like penation angle.

这是指你的肌纤维与骨骼之间的夹角。

So this is an angle at which your muscle fibers interact with your bone.

所以我们通常认为肌肉纤维是在拉动肌肉。

So we tend to think about this as like a muscle fiber is pulling on a muscle.

但其中一些纤维的走向几乎呈90度。

Well, some of these are oriented at almost a 90 degree.

所以纤维是垂直于骨骼走向的。

So a fiber runs perpendicular into the bone.

而有些则接近45度，有些则几乎与骨骼平行。

And some of them are closer to like a 45 degree, and some of them are closer to almost parallel.

这种角度差异带来了许多独特的机械优势。

And that confers a lot of unique mechanical benefits.

因此，在某个区域，它实际上会增加力量输出。

So in one area, it's actually gonna increase force production.

而在另一个方向，则会提高速度。

You go the other direction, increases velocity.

因此，肌肉附着在骨骼上的角度有着各种各样的变化。

And so we have all kinds of changes in the angle at which the muscle inserts into the bone.

现在我们已经进入力学层面了，对吧？

Now we're already on the mechanic side of it, right?

所以我们已经影响了它发力的效率。

So we've influenced how effectively it pulls.

而任何这些情况都总是有得有失。

And with any of these things, it's always a give and take.

所以在大角度的情况下，你会牺牲力量，但会提高缩短速度。

So you're going give up in the case of a nation angle, you're going to give up strength, but you're going to increase shortening velocity.

或者如果你想要提高速度，就会牺牲一些力量，对吧？

Or if you want to increase the velocity, you're going to give up sort of the strength, right?

我们还没有涉及任何能量层面的问题。

We haven't gotten to any of the energetics at all.

我们还没有谈到磷酸肌酸的储存增加，而这是以最快速度驱动肌肉收缩所需能量系统。

So we haven't talked about increasing storage of phosphocreatine, which is the energy system needed to power that muscle contraction at the fastest possible rate.

我们可以继续深入讨论很久，但希望你已经理解了这些适应性变化的一些要点。

So we could continue to go as long as you want here, but hopefully you're getting the point of a little bit of the adaptations that occur.

我之所以想真正地提一下这些内容，是因为我觉得对某些听众来说，把这些带回来说很重要。

The reason I wanna actually, why I think that stuff is important to bring it back maybe for some listeners.

我知道我刚才带你经历了一段复杂的讲解，你可能心里在想：刚才到底发生了什么？

I know I took you on a journey there and you're just like, what the hell just happened?

这很重要，因为这正是我变强了但体型却没有变大的具体解释。

That matters because again, this is a specific explanation for how is possible that I got stronger, but I didn't get bigger.

这也解释了为什么力量和肌肉肥大是相互关联、高度重叠的，但并不一定是同一回事。

And this is also why strength and hypertrophy are intertwined and are heavily overlapped, but are not necessarily the same thing.

例如，我们可以通过所谓的肌节间距增加肌肉体积，却反而降低力量。

So for example, we can increase muscle size and actually reduce strength because of what's called lattice spacing.

所以你需要记住，你的肌纤维是长长的圆柱状结构。

So what happens is you have to kind of remember your muscle fibers are these long cylinders.

而它们收缩的方式需要一个最佳的空间距离。

And the way that they contract requires an optimal space.

因此，你会遇到一种叫做肌动蛋白的分子，还有一种叫做肌球蛋白的分子。

And so what happens is you have this molecule called actin and you have this molecule called myosin.

肌球蛋白位于中心，周围有六个肌动蛋白，以三维圆形排列在每个肌球蛋白周围。

Myosin sits in the middle and there are six actin that surround each individual myosin in a three-dimensional circle here.

所以中心的肌球蛋白长着许多球状头部，可以伸出来抓住肌动蛋白。

So you got a myosin in the middle that has all these globular heads and they can reach up and grab an actin.

而且同样，周围大约有六个，对吧？

And again, there's six sort of around them, right?

但可能发生的情况是，如果这些肌动蛋白靠得太近的话。

Well, one of the things that can occur is if those actin are too close together.

想象一下我的双手，我张开双臂摆出一个大大的T字形，对吧？

So imagine my hands, I'm reaching out and doing a giant T, right?

我的手臂水平伸展着。

So I'm horizontal out there.

如果我的指尖代表肌球蛋白的末端，我试图向上抓取肌动蛋白，并把它们拉向我的脸，那么这些肌动蛋白就会彼此堆叠在一起。

Well, if my fingertips are the tips of the myosin and I'm trying to reach up and grab an actin, and I wanna pull those actins closer to my face, well, those actins stack on top of each other.

而这正是肌肉增长的真正原因。

And that's what actually makes your muscles grow up.

比如我弯曲二头肌时，它实际上会增长三到四英寸，因为你在把肌节——或者叫它们什么——一层层叠起来。

Like if I flex my bicep, it actually, you know, grows up three or four inches because you're stacking these sarcomeres or what they're called on top of each other.

好的，太棒了。

All right, great.

但如果我伸出手去抓它们，而肌肉被拉得太远，我就无法形成强有力的连接。

Well, if I'm reaching out to grab them and the muscle is stretched too far, I can't actually make that strong of a connection.

这就像是我伸出手去抓东西，但只能用最长的指尖够到它。

It would be like if I reached out and grabbed something, but I can only reach my longest fingertip on it.

当我收缩时，由于抓握力太弱，无法产生强烈的收缩。

When I go to contract, I can't make that strong of a contraction because my grip is weak.

我的抓握会先断裂，而不是达到我的力量极限。

My grip is going to break before I reach my strength limit.

如果我离得太近，就没有空间了。

If I'm too close, there's nowhere to go.

我已经靠得够近了。

I'm already as close.

所以，如果你过度干扰了这些间距，确实可能会损失一点力量。

So if you actually disrupt that lot of spacing too much, you can actually lose a little bit of strength.

所以，变大本身并不会让你变弱。

So it's not that getting bigger will ever make you weaker.

只是你并没有为力量做优化。

It's simply that you're not optimizing for strength.

你只是在为体积做优化。

You're simply optimizing for size.

因此，这可以部分解释增肌与表现之间的差异。

And so that can that can explain a little bit of the of the discangurity between growing and performance.

我想短暂休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商 Athletic Greens。

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, Athletic Greens.

Athletic Greens 是一种含有维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原的饮品，旨在帮助你满足所有基础营养需求。

Athletic Greens is a vitamin mineral probiotic and adaptogen drink designed to help you meet all of your foundational nutritional needs.

自2012年以来，我每天都在服用 Athletic Greens，因此很高兴他们成为本播客的赞助商。

I've been taking Athletic Greens daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're a sponsor of this podcast.

我开始服用Athletic Greens的原因，以及我至今仍每天服用一到两次的原因，是它能帮助我满足所有基础营养需求。

The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or twice a day is that it helps me meet all of my foundational nutritional needs.

也就是说，它涵盖了我所需的维生素、矿物质，而益生菌对我来说尤其重要。

That is, it covers my vitamins, my minerals, and the probiotics are especially important to me.

Athletic Greens还含有适应原，这对缓解压力、运动、工作或日常生活的压力至关重要。

Athletic Greens also contains adaptogens, which are critical for recovering from stress, from exercise, from work, or just general life.

如果你想尝试Athletic Greens，可以访问athleticgreens.com/huberman来领取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

他们会赠送你五份免费的旅行装，以及一整年的维生素D3和K2。

They'll give you five free travel packs, and they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.

再次提醒，如果你想尝试Athletic Greens，请访问athleticgreens.com/huberman领取特别优惠。

Again, if you'd like to try Athletic Greens, go to athleticgreens.com/huberman to claim the special offer.

当我们经历肌肉肥大时，肌肉、神经等方面会发生哪些主要变化？

What are a few of the major changes that occur in muscle, nerve, etcetera, when we experience hypertrophy.

我听说过蛋白质合成的变化。

I've heard of protein synthesis changes.

我假设这是真的。

I'm assuming that's true.

也许你可以再多告诉我们一些关于这个的信息。

Maybe you can tell us a bit more about that.

血流的变化。

Changes in blood flow.

是的。

Yep.

或许还有神经支配的变化。

Perhaps changes in neural innervation.

谁知道呢，也许筋膜也有变化。

Who knows, maybe even changes in fascia.

我不太清楚具体有哪些，但我不得不想象它们 somehow 参与其中。

I'm not aware of any specifically, but I have to imagine that they're somehow involved.

当然。

Sure.

当我们谈论肌肉肥大时，由于训练方式非常接近，许多适应性变化都是相似的。

So when we talk about hypertrophy, a lot of the adaptations are going to be similar because the mode of training is close enough.

所以你的神经系统可能还不够聪明，无法区分一组5次重复和另一组。

So your nerve probably aren't smart enough to differentiate between a set of five reps repetitions.

它们足够聪明，能察觉到所有变化。

They're smart enough to differentiate anything.

它们知道正在发生的一切，但这些变化之间会有很大的重叠。

Like they know everything that's going on, but it's going to be a huge overlap.

肌肉肥大的主要区别有几个方面。

The primary difference with hypertrophy is a couple of things.

如果你考虑肌肉的微观结构，我在YouTube上有一系列视频，如果你想了解背后的视觉演示的话。

So if you think about the muscle microstructure, I have a whole series of videos on YouTube if you wanna see the visuals behind this.

事实上，其中我还包含了我几分钟前没能告诉你的肌纤维具体直径尺寸。

In fact, in there I include the specific diameter size of muscle fibers that I was failed to give you a few minutes ago.

我们会提供这个链接的活跃版本。

We will provide an active link to this.

很好。

Great.

所以实际情况是这样的。

So what happens is this.

当我们谈论肌肉蛋白合成这个经典说法时，通常指的是收缩单位。

When we talk about and you hear this classic buzz phrase of muscle protein synthesis, generally what we're talking about there is contractile units.

当我们说收缩单位时，我们指的是肌球蛋白和肌动蛋白。

And so when we say contractile units, we're talking about the myosin and actin.

因此，我们真正想表达的是：存在某种蛋白质周转过程，我们正在试图向其中添加更多的蛋白质。

And so what we're really trying to do is say, okay, there's some amount of protein turnover where we're coming in and we're trying to add more proteins to the equation.

而在这个过程中，必须经历一系列步骤。

And so what has to happen there is a series of steps.

第一步是，外部世界必须发出某种信号。

So step number one is there has to be some sort of signal from the external world.

这通常实际上是细胞壁的拉伸，也就是运动时发生的情况，对吧？

This could actually oftentimes it's things like stretching of the cell wall, which is what happens with exercise, right?

所以你在收缩，肌肉缩短，细胞膜会受到很大的拉伸。

So you're contracting, you're shortening, you get this big stretch of the cell wall.

它也可能来自像氨基酸输注这样简单的事情。

It can come from as simple things like an amino acid infusion.

这其实就是摄入蛋白质。

This is just eating protein.

这就是为什么单独摄入蛋白质就具有促合成作用，对吧？

This is why protein ingestion alone is anabolic, right?

它能帮助你长肌肉，即使你不运动也有效。

It'll help you grow muscle independent of even moving.

所以光吃蛋白质就能让你长肌肉。

So just eating protein will grow your muscles.

是的，当然。

Yeah, certainly.

这些数据非常明确。

And those data are very clear.

当然，和任何事情一样，达到所需的总量时会有一个饱和点。

Of course, like anything, there's a saturation point in terms of total amount you need to get to and things like that.

但如果你在禁食一整晚后走进实验室，我给你三十克蛋白质，我们会清楚地看到蛋白质合成在几个小时内显著增加，可能持续四到五小时以上。

But yeah, if you were to walk into a laboratory fasted overnight, and I gave you thirty grams of protein, we would see a very measurable increase in protein synthesis quite clearly for several hours, probably four to five plus hours.

我们或许可以请更了解这些数据的人来说明，但确实是很多小时。

We could maybe bring us to people that would know those data better, but many hours.

没有任何力量训练。

With no weight training.

没错。

Correct.

我打赌大多数人并不知道这个事实。

I am betting that most people are not aware of that fact.

其实有趣的是，如果你重复同样的实验，只是加上力量训练，你也会看到蛋白质合成的提升，对吧？

You know, what's actually interesting about it is if you do the exact same study again and you just did strength training, you would also see an improvement in protein synthesis, right?

但这些因素是独立的，机制也是独立的，因此如果你同时进行两者，它们会叠加在一起，这非常棒。

But those factors are independent and the mechanisms are independent such that if you do them both together, they stack on top of each other, which is really wonderful.

如果你在其中加入碳水化合物，实际上就是在为整个肌肉蛋白合成过程提供能量。

And if you were to add carbohydrate into that mix, now you're actually adding fuel for the entire muscle protein synthesis process.

现在你会看到更明显的叠加效益。

And now you're gonna see even additive benefits.

这就是为什么多年来，这支撑了整个运动后‘合成代谢窗口’的说法，即你必须在运动后摄入碳水和蛋白质，以最大化肌肉肥大。

And this is why for so many years, this is what bore the whole like post exercise anabolic window thing, which is like, you got to get carbs and protein in post exercise to maximize muscle hypertrophy.

但现在发现，这在某种程度上并不完全正确，关于

Now that turned out to be like not totally true in terms of

据我回忆，这个窗口并没有最初人们所说的那么严格，但我认为这仍然非常有趣。

Well, the window does not be as strict as people initially asserted, as I recall, but still, I think that's super interesting.

蛋白质合成存在并行的通路，仅摄入蛋白质或仅进行训练，各自都能独立提升蛋白质合成。

These are parallel pathways for protein synthesis, simply eating protein or training each independently increases protein synthesis.

我忍不住想问，如果是进行耐力型运动，情况也一样吗？

I can't help but ask, is the same true if one does endurance type exercise?

如果我出去慢跑四十五分钟，全程都能用鼻子呼吸，但只要我再快一点，就必须改用嘴呼吸，也就是所谓的二区心肺训练。

If I go out for a forty five minute jog where I can nasal breathe the whole time, but if I were to go any faster, I would have to kick over into mouth breathing as well, so called zone two ish cardio.

仅仅因为这次慢跑，我会看到蛋白质合成的增加吗？

Will I see an increase in protein synthesis simply as a consequence of that jog?

不会，这是力量训练的独特之处。

No, this is one of the unique factors of strength training.

你不会看到这种效果。

You're not going to see that.

事实上，要测量蛋白质分解是非常困难的。

In fact, would, it's difficult to measure a protein breakdown.

在实验室中测量这一点极其具有挑战性，但你不会看到这些益处。

That's been as extraordinarily challenging to do in the laboratory, but you're not gonna see those benefits.

事实上，你看到的恰恰相反。

In fact, you're gonna see quite the opposite.

这是一整套分子级联反应。

It's an entire molecular cascade.

所以这就是它的运作方式。

So this is kind of how it works.

所以你需要某种外部信号，这可以是一个能量信号。

So you have to have some sort of signal on the outside, and this can be an energetic signal.

这可能是葡萄糖摄取，也可能是蛋白质摄入，或者是身体的拉伸。

So this could be glucose uptake, it could be protein intake, it could be a physical stretch.

实际上，在细胞膜上会有一些东西，比如睾酮，对吧？

What happens is on the cell wall, there's some sort of, it could be testosterone, right?

睾酮可以与β肾上腺素受体结合，从而激活一系列信号蛋白的级联反应。

Testosterone could bind to beta adrenergic receptors, and this activates a whole series of cascades of signaling proteins.

这些蛋白基本上在玩传话游戏。

And these proteins basically play a game of telephone.

一个告诉下一个，下一个再告诉再下一个，就这样一路传递下去。

So one tells the next one, this tells the next one, and they sort of walk this entire way.

无论受到何种刺激，分子级联反应本质上是相同的，但它们的路径不同。

Well, molecular cascade is fundamentally the same thing regardless of the insult, but they're different pathways.

因此，力量训练或蛋白质摄入所引发的通路最终都会到达同一个细胞核。

And so the pathway from strength training or protein ingestion is going to go to the same nucleus.

它会激活一系列基因级联反应，促使你完成整个蛋白质合成过程，我稍后会详细解释这是什么。

It's gonna activate a whole set of gene cascades that are gonna tell you to go through this entire process of protein synthesis, which I'll walk through what that is in a second.

如果你进行耐力训练，那就是另一条通路。

If you do endurance training, it's a different pathway.

因此，它不会激活像mTOR和AKT这样的促合成信号级联，而是启动另一条通路，你可以将其理解为AMPK和能量信号相关通路。

And so instead of activating this entire thing of like mTOR and AKT and this anabolic signaling cascade, It's gonna do a different one, which you can think of more of like as AMPK and energy signaling things.

所以这里存在一个交叉点。

So there's a crossover point here.

事实上，你会注意到mTOR和AKT并不会显著影响AMPK。

In fact, one of the things you'll notice is mTOR and AKT don't really influence AMPK.

但有一些多年前的研究表明，AMPK会激活另一种名为TSC2的蛋白，而该蛋白实际上会抑制mTOR。

But there is some literature that years ago showed AMPK will activate another protein called TSC2 and that will actually inhibit mTOR.

这首次从分子层面解释了耐力训练对肌肉肥大的所谓‘干扰效应’。

And that was the first molecular explanation for the quote unquote interference effect of endurance training on hypertrophy.

你能为观众简单说明一下这是什么意思吗？

Could you just highlight for people what this is?

因为当你描述这些信号通路时，我想简单地做个总体概述。

Because as you describe these signaling pathways, I just want to maybe just put a top contour explanation.

mTOR通路与细胞生长是同义的。

The mTOR pathway is synonymous with cell growth.

是的。

Yep.

在生物体（包括人类）发育成熟、细胞变大的过程中，mTOR在系统中非常丰富。

Both during development as organisms, humans included, mature and cells get larger, mTOR is abundant in the system.

完全正确。

Totally.

简单来说。

Just to put it quite simply.

而AMPK通路以及你提到的某些代谢信号，则更与有氧运动相关，至少在本次讨论的语境下，涉及能量利用。

And then the AMPK pathway and some of the metabolic signaling that you're referring to is more synonymous with cardiovascular exercise in at least in the context of this discussion and fuel utilization.

是的。

Yep.

你所描述的交叉点，即某些形式的运动可以同时激活这两种通路。

And what you described as the crossover point where certain forms of exercise can tap into both of these.

是的。

Yep.

但至少就本次讨论而言，我们主要将它们区分开来。

But at least for sake of this conversation, we're largely separating them.

对，因为这里重要的是代谢产物。

Yeah, because the byproduct is the thing that matters here.

因此，mTOR和AKT进入细胞核的结果是促进蛋白质合成。

So the result of mTOR and AKT getting into the nucleus is going to be increase in protein synthesis.

AMPK被激活的结果是促进线粒体生物生成。

The result of AMPK running down to the is going to be result in increasing mitochondrial biogenesis.

所以最终的效果是不同的。

So the net outcome is different.

不过，我想快速提一下。

Now, I do want to flag it very quickly.

这是一件极其复杂的事情。

This is an extraordinarily complicated thing.

事实上，在我们的实验室里，我们是最早能够测量AMPK各个亚基在不同肌纤维类型中的表达的人之一。

And in fact, in our laboratory, we were able to be one of the first that figured out how to measure all the different subunits of AMPK and individual muscles by fiber type.

那是因为你们把人们膝盖和髌腱里的肌肉取出来了。

That's because you're ripping people's muscles out of their knees and their patellar tendons.

开个玩笑，实际上是在IRB协议下温和地取样。

Just teasing, they're gently removing under IRB protocol.

当然。

Of course.

即使我们说AMPK，它也不是一个单一的东西。

Even when we say something like AMPK, it's not one thing.

当我们说mTOR时，它也不是一个单一的东西。

And when we say things like mTOR, it's not one thing either.

它涉及总量，也涉及激活，而激活位点有很多个。

It is, you have the total amount that matters, you have the activation, the activation sites are many of them.

所以事情并没有我描述的那么简单。

So it's not as simple as what I'm laying it out.

我只是想让你大致理解这里发生的事情，从而真正回答你的问题：肌肉到底是如何生长的？

I just want to get a big concept of kind of what's happening here to actually kind of answer your question, which is, okay, so how is the muscle actually growing?

你需要了解一点关于蛋白质合成的原理。

What you have to understand is a little bit of how protein synthesis occurs.

我通常的意思是，你体内有大量氨基酸，这其实可以追溯到中学生物课的内容，对吧？

So what I'm generally meaning is you have a whole bunch of amino acids, and this actually goes back to maybe like middle school biology class, right?

如果你把一大堆氨基酸组合在一起，就会得到一种叫做肽的物质，对吧？

So if you take a bunch of amino acids and you combine them together, we get these things called a peptide, right?

如果有人听说过肽，那这其实就是它的全部含义。

And if anyone has ever heard of like peptides, that's all it really means.

把一大堆肽连在一起，就形成了多肽。

You put a bunch of those together, you have a polypeptide.

再把一大堆多肽组合起来，我们就得到了蛋白质。

You put a bunch of those together and we now have a protein.

所以，我想要合成的任何蛋白质都会经历完全相同的系统和步骤。

So any protein I wanna make is gonna go through the exact same system, the exact same steps.

无论这种蛋白质是要构成红细胞，都无关紧要。

It doesn't matter if that protein is going to be a red blood cell.

无论它是要形成毛囊，也无关紧要。

It doesn't matter if that's going to be a hair follicle.

无论它是要成为骨骼肌，也无关紧要。

It doesn't matter if it's gonna be skeletal muscle.

这基本上就是蛋白质合成。

That's basically protein synthesis.

所以，当我们想到蛋白质合成时，通常只会想象出肌肉增长的画面。

So when we tend to think of protein synthesis, we we just paint this picture of growing more muscle.

但这并不是唯一的作用。

And that's not the only thing.

因此，当我们谈论拥有高质量肌肉的好处时，说它是调节你大部分蛋白质合成的关键场所，有些人就会困惑，因为他们觉得：‘我不需要增肌。’

And so when we talk about the benefits of having high quality muscle as being this place that's gonna regulate most of your protein synthesis, we tend to lose some people because they're thinking, Oh, I don't need to gain muscle.

但这不是我们所讨论的内容。

And that's not what we're talking about.

我们讨论的是调节免疫系统，或者调节任何蛋白质的更新。

We're talking about regulating the immune system or we're talking about regulating any protein turnover.

所以任何在体内被降解或需要被分解的蛋白质。

So any protein that's degradated or needs to be broken down in system at all.

自噬。

Autophagy.

这是一个非常重要的流行术语。

This is such important buzzword.

这仅仅是针对不需要或受损蛋白质的分解过程。

That's just protein breakdown of of an unneeded or or damaged protein.

对吧？

Right?

整个过程都需要通过蛋白质合成来重新生成并替换这些物质。

That whole thing is going to go through protein synthesis to be able to come back and replace, the things.

你之所以进行自噬，唯一的原因是为了清除这些垃圾，然后重新合成功能更正常的蛋白质。

The only reason you go through autophagy is so you can clean that garbage out and then come back and build in a more properly functioning protein.

所以这不仅仅是关于增加肌肉质量，而是为什么你希望这些系统能良好运作。

So it's not just about growing more muscle mass, it's why you want these systems to be operating well.

因此，蛋白质摄入会激活这一系列反应，因为它本质上是在说：嘿，看，我们这里有充足的供应。

So the protein ingestion is going to just activate that cascade because it's basically saying, oh, hey, look, we have an abundance of supply here.

为什么不利用它来合成一些东西呢？

Why don't we make something out of it?

因为我们不知道下一次这种情况什么时候还会出现。

Because we don't know the next time this thing's going to be around.

碳水化合物和脂肪很容易储存。

Carbohydrates and fat are very easy to store.

蛋白质却很难储存。

Protein is very challenging.

它更具瞬时性。

It's more transient.

因此你可以储存一部分并保留下来，但大部分你会流失。

And so you can store some of it and keep it around, but most of it you're going to lose.

所以当它可用时，你的身体会希望迅速采取行动。

And so when it's available, your body wants to act very quickly.

它并不一定在意你体内是否有多余的脂肪。

It doesn't necessarily care if you have extra fat floating around in your system.

它会想，好吧，先把它们打包储存起来。

It's, all right, let's package it up and store it.

我们可以很容易地再把它取出来。

We can easily bring this back out.

但如果你体内有蛋白质，你就想用掉它。

But if you got protein around, you're going to want to use it.

因此，仅凭蛋白质就能激活并增加蛋白质合成，而无需运动。

And so that's why it alone will activate and increase protein synthesis, independent of exercise.

所以这些效果是叠加的，就像我说的，因为这些信号通路是独立的。

So those effects are additive, like I said, because that signaling process is independent.

一旦你达到一个限制性阶段，你就达到了极限。

And once you hit a rate limiting phase, then you are there.

但在初期，这些效应是独立发挥作用的。

But at its onset, those things will work independently.

好的，说到这里，骨骼肌肥大是什么意思呢？

Okay, so that being said, what is skeletal muscle hypertrophy?

一般来说，我们认为这是收缩蛋白的增加。

In general, we think about it as this increase in contractile protein.

所以，肌球蛋白和肌动蛋白实际上会变得更粗。

So those myosin and actin effectively get thicker.

好的，现在发生的情况是，由于它们变粗了，正如我刚才提到的，这会影响并实际上损害了肌节间距。

Okay, now what happens is since they are thicker, and as I talked about a second ago, that influences and actually hurts the lattice spacing.

因此，你的身体会因此做出反应：嘿，让我们增加整个细胞的直径，以便维持这些结构之间的间距，对吧？

And so what your body does as a result is say, hey, let's increase the diameter of the entire cell so that we can maintain our spacing between these things, right?

这就好比，你知道，我们两个人坐在这间屋子里，如果你体积翻倍了，我会说：哇，你占了我的私人空间。

It's effectively like if, you know, the two of us were sitting in this room and you doubled in size, and I was like, woah, you're in my personal space.

就像我体型翻倍了，现在我们彼此都进入了对方的空间。

Like, and I doubled in size, now we're in each other's space.

到了某个时候，我们只能把房间扩大。

At some point we just have to make the room larger.

这正是细胞中发生的情况。

And that's exactly what's happening in the cell.

因此，当你持续增加肌肉体积时，会继续发生肌原纤维的增加，肌肉纤维的尺寸也会持续增大。

And so as you can continue to increase muscle size, gonna get myofibrillar accretion, you're gonna continue to increase muscle fiber size.

多年来，一直有关于非功能性肥大的说法。

For years, there was this other comment about nonfunctional hypertrophy.

这通常被称为肌浆肥大。

And this was often called sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

但这并不是肌浆网。

Now this is not sarcoplasmic reticulum.

这是一种委婉的说法，意思是我的肌肉变大了，但没有实际功能。

This is a fancy way of saying my muscle is larger, but it has no function.

那么问题来了，这怎么可能呢？

And the question would be, well, how the hell is that possible?

如果我拥有更多的收缩单位，能形成更多的横桥，完成更多的动力冲程——这些就是所谓的收缩动作——我怎么可能反而失去功能呢？

If I have more contractile units and I can make more of these cross bridges, perform more of these power strokes, this is what these contractions are called, how could I possibly be losing function?

这曾经是个难题，长期以来都被当作一种民间说法。

Well, that was challenge for, that was bro science for a very, very long time.

事实上，真正关键的问题是：是否存在不同类型的肥大训练？

And in fact, what it really came down to was, are there different types of hypertrophy training?

一种是促进收缩蛋白肥大，另一种是促进肌浆肥大。

Some that induce contractile protein hypertrophy and some that induce sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

这一点曾受到严重质疑。

And that was the significantly challenged.

直到最近，奥本大学的迈克·罗伯茨进行了一系列出色的研究，明确表明肌浆肥大确实可能发生。

Until recently, Mike Roberts at Auburn did a series of wonderful studies that showed quite clearly that sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is probably happening.

事实上，这很可能有一个相当简单的解释。

And in fact, there's probably a pretty easy explanation.

一般来说，发生的情况是肌肉纤维内的液体增加了。

In general, what happens is it is it is a increase in fluid in the muscle fiber.

因此，这会使肌纤维的直径变大，但由于没有增加收缩单位，所以不会产生更多的力量。

And so this would allow for the diameter to be larger, but since there's no addition of contractile units, no more force production happens.

他实际上写了一篇非常出色的综述论文。

And so he actually has a wonderful review paper.

我认为这篇论文是开放获取的，你可以去查阅，他还制作了一个非常棒的图表。

I believe it's open access where you can go look and he created a wonderful graph.

我想我的YouTube上关于肌肥大的视频里也有这个图表。

I think that's in my hypertrophy videos on YouTube as well.

你实际上可以看到，这种现象很可能在你训练过程中的不同阶段发生。

And you can actually see that it's likely happening in phasic changes throughout your training experience.

所以在你训练初期，但随着训练时间从几周逐渐变为几个月，最终变成几年，我们看到的肌肥大来源——来自收缩单位与肌浆的比例——发生了变化。

So at the beginning of your training, but as the years and year or weeks rather than months, and then eventually years go by in your training, we have a change in the hypertrophy that's coming from contractile units versus sarcoplasmic.

所以我认为这是一个重要的观点，因为人们常常困惑：为什么我的肌肉变大了，力量却没增加？

So I think that it's an important note because again, people are wondering like, well, how the hell is it even possible for me to get larger muscle and somehow I'm not stronger?

如果这仅仅是液体潴留，这并不是水肿，实际上没有任何负面影响，只是细胞内储存了更多的水分，细胞体积变大，然后一切就按这种方式运作。

Well, if it came from simply fluid retention and this is not bloating, this is not, there's no negative really to this, it is simply holding of more hydration in the cell, the amber gets larger, and then everything works that way.

你刚才描述的让我想到了神经系统中类似的情况，即神经可塑性，也就是神经系统在学习、经验甚至损伤后发生改变的能力。

Well, you just described calls to mind something similar in the nervous system, which is neuroplasticity, which of course is the nervous system's ability to change in response to learning and experience, and damage for that matter.

是的。

Yep.

我们通常用一个术语来概括，但实际上神经可塑性有多种不同的形式。

And we think about it as one term, but there are many different forms of neuroplasticity.

对。

Yeah.

我们现在不需要深入讨论，但比如有依赖尖峰时序的可塑性、长时程增强、长时程抑制——这跟心理抑郁毫无关系，还有脉冲易化障碍等等，还有很多其他形式，以及短期

A discussion that we don't need to get into now, but there's spike timing dependent plasticity in LTP, and long term depression, which has nothing to do with psychological depression, and on, and impaired pulse facilitation, and on, and on, and on, and short

期

term

可塑性。

plasticity.

所以我开始明白，我们所谓的力量提升有许多不同的途径，肌肉肥大也是如此。

And so what I'm starting to understand is that there are many paths to what we call strength increase, and there are many paths to what we think of as hypertrophy.

这些途径中的许多往往是同时发挥作用的。

Many of these are going to operate in parallel.

几乎不可能只靠其中某一种机制单独导致肌肉肥大或力量变化；而特定的运动形式、训练组数、重复次数、组间及训练日之间的休息时间，会激活不同的机制，同时也可能激活部分重叠的机制。正因如此，如果我理解得没错，你一开始提到，力量提升通常——虽然不总是——会伴随一定程度的肌肉肥大，而肌肉肥大也常常——虽然不总是——不会带来力量的提升。

It's going to be rare that any one of them is going to be active alone in order to create hypertrophy or strength changes, and that certain forms of exercise and certain ways of doing exercises in terms of sets and repetition schemes and rest intervals between sets and between training sessions are going to tap into different mechanisms, but also overlapping sets of mechanisms, which is why, if I understand correctly, you mentioned at the beginning that often, not always, but often strength increases are associated with some hypertrophy changes, and hypertrophy increases are often not always associated with strength increases.

我理解得对吗？

Do I have that right?

没错。

Correct.

这件事的精彩之处在于，尽管我们还不清楚具体的机制，存在很多困惑，也发生了许多变化。

And the beauty of this whole thing is, while we don't yet know the mechanisms specifically, and there's a lot of confusion, and there's a lot of changes that happen.

就在几天前，我们刚刚提交了一篇论文。

There's a we actually just submitted a paper a few days ago.

我和旧金山的吉米·贝格利，以及阿肯色州的凯文·穆里克——他在肌肉生理学领域有一个出色的实验室——共同完成了这项研究。

Myself, Jimmy Bagley at San Francisco and Kevin Murick has a wonderful muscle physiology lab at Arkansas.

实际上，这是一篇非常通俗易懂的文章。

And we actually this is a very lay article, actually.

它读起来极其简单。

It's incredibly easy to read.

我们阐述了肌核化在肌肉肥大中的作用。

We describe the role of myonucleation in muscle hypertrophy.

其中涉及大量有趣的内容，我们正不断深入了解，举个简单的例子。

And this is actually a lot of interesting stuff we can into there, we're learning more and more about it as a quick example.

骨骼肌的独特之处在于其直径非常大。

So skeletal muscle is unique in the fact that it is so large in diameter.

它还有一个独特之处，就是多核结构。

It's also unique in the fact that it's multinucleated.

这意味着在生物学中，通常一个细胞只有一个细胞核。

What that means is typically in biology, you see like a cell has one nucleus.

细胞核是储存和容纳DNA的地方，也是控制中心。

That's the place that houses and holds the DNA and it's a control center.

它会告诉肌肉生长、萎缩、染色、修复，所有这些过程。

It tells it to grow, shrink, dye, repair, that whole thing.

人类的骨骼肌非常出色，因为它拥有成千上万个甚至更多的细胞核，这赋予了它极强的可塑性。

Well, skeletal muscle in human is awesome because it has thousands, if not more of those nuclei, which gives it that plasticity.

而一个普通的细胞，每次需要上调、下调或做任何事情时，都只能依赖这一个控制中心。

And so a normal cell has one place it has to go to for any time it wants to upregulate, downregulate, do whatever the thing is.

你的肌纤维却在整个长度上分布着这些小小的控制中心。

Your muscle fibers have these little control centers all throughout them.

多年来，我们一直认为：很好，明白了。

And for years we were like, okay, great.

你能实现的肌肉肥大程度可能受限于你拥有的细胞核数量，因为如果你的肌纤维尺寸过大，就会失去控制。

The amount of hypertrophy that you can experience is probably limited by the amount of nuclei you have because you're not going to exceed a certain size of muscle fiber if that's going to mean you lose control.

所以，我们又想：好吧，明白了。

And so we're like, okay, great.

我们发现并确定了一个限制因素，它决定了肌肉实际能增长到多大。

We found and identified a limiting factor to what will determine how much a muscle can actually grow.

那么下一个问题就是，这些东西是从哪里来的？

And then the next question was then where are these things coming from?

这时候卫星细胞就登场了。

This is where satellite cells came in.

因此，很明显，那些躺在肌纤维外周、处于休眠状态的卫星细胞，会进入肌纤维内部，转化为肌核，从而真正地让你的肌纤维直径增大。

And so it was very clear, a satellite cell that's lying dormant sort of on the outside, the periphery of the fiber, will then go into the fiber, will turn into a myonuclei, and then it can actually, you know, increase your diameter like that.

所以实际上，你所能获得的肌核数量是受限于你能招募并转化成肌核的卫星细胞数量的。

And so then actually it was like, hey, you're actually limited by the amount of these satellite cells you can get in and turn into nuclei.

随后，有研究证据表明：如果你停止训练会怎样？

And then the evidence came out that showed, hey, what if you detrain?

假设我很久以前经常举重，肌肉变得很发达，但现在却失去了大部分肌肉。

So what if I used to lift weights like a long time ago and I got big, but now I've lost a lot of my muscle.

如果我重新开始训练，你实际上会比第一次练出这些肌肉时更快地恢复它们。

If I train again, you actually get that muscle back faster than it took you the very first time to build it.

这就是我们所说的肌肉记忆，类似于RFL。

Like that's what we call muscle memory, like an RFL.

在你的角度来看，肌肉记忆是另一回事，对吧？

Now on your side of the equation, muscle memory is something different, right?

这是一种

It's a

神经生理上的现象。当人们谈论肌肉记忆，比如多年不骑自行车后还能骑，这实际上主要与肌肉无关。

neurophysical Well, when people talk about muscle memory, like the ability to ride a bicycle after so many years of not having tried to ride one, that's actually largely independent of the muscle.

和肌肉有一定关系。

Has something to do with the muscle.

完全是独立的

It's exclusively independent

这基本上是一种神经系统现象。

of It's basically a nervous system phenomenon.

百分之百。

100%.

因此，‘肌肉记忆’这个词已经被不同群体用来指代不同的含义。

So muscle memory has been co opted by different communities to mean different things.

是的，在我们这边，肌肉记忆指的是记住肌肉体积的能力，也就是肌肉肥大，因为正如你所解释的，运动控制完全是神经系统的现象。

Yeah, so on our side, muscle memory is going to mean that ability to remember that muscle size, That hypertrophy, because as you explained, the motor control thing is that it's totally a nerve thing.

这一点我承认，对吧？

I'll give you this one, right?

你们这些搞神经的人可以拿走这个说法。

You guys, the nerve people can have this one.

在我看来，力量和肌肉肥大变化与神经可塑性之间存在着大量相似之处。

Well, it seems to me that there are a tremendous number of parallels between strength and hypertrophy changes and neuroplasticity.

这一点在这次对话中反复出现，因为我们知道，例如，如果一个人在童年早期接触过几种不同的语言，那么他日后学习多种语言会容易得多。

This is coming up again and again in this conversation, because we know for instance, that if you are exposed to a couple of different languages early on in life, you will learn any number of different languages far more easily later in life.

当然。

Of course.

这是因为不同语言之间存在一些交叉，尤其是拉丁语系的语言，使得这种学习成为可能。

And that's because there's some crossover between different languages, especially Latin based languages that allows for that.

这背后有其生理基础。

There's a substrate for it.

这类似于再次骑自行车或演奏乐器的能力，但范围更广。

It's similar to the ability to hop on a bicycle again phenomenon, or play an instrument phenomenon, it's broader than that.

而且，我认为这说明了在力量和肌肉肥大增加时，支配这些细胞的神经细胞中发生了大量不同的适应性变化。

And again, I think this speaks to the huge number of different adaptive changes that are occurring in the cells in the nerves that innervate these cells when one experiences increases in strength and hypertrophy.

所以

So

为了总结一下，并回到我之前说的，我们现在了解到的是成核现象。顺便说一句，整个这一发展轨迹大概发生在过去八年左右。

to round that out, and to go back to what I was saying there, what we're actually learning now is that nucleation thing, And by the way, this entire trajectory story is probably over the last, like, eight years.

也就是说，我们对肌肉如何生长的理解变化得有多快。

Like, this is how fast we've changed our understanding of how muscle grows.

五年前，肌浆网的概念还只是推测性的科学。

The sarcoplasmic reticulum thing five years ago was was Brose Science.

现在它已经被广泛接受了。

Now it's it's pretty well established.

单核化现象则是八到十年前的事了。

The mononucleation thing was eight to ten years ago.

每周都在变化。

It's changing every week.

我们这周刚提交的这篇论文显示，事实上，几年前我们普遍认为的情况并非如此——你可以在一些播客和我的某些视频中找到我谈论过这些观点。

This paper we just submitted this week showed actually while we had generally thought a few years ago, in fact, you can find me on podcasts and probably in some of my videos talking about this.

我现在就告诉你，那些观点是错的。

And I'm going to tell you right now, those things are wrong.

就在过去几年里，我们有了新的发现：之前我们认为的脱训效应，其实是因为如果你之前拥有肌肉，那些肌核被引入并分化后，即使肌肉再次变小，这些肌核仍然会被保留下来。

Like we've just had new things come out in these last couple of years where that detraining effect we thought was a reason of, well, what happens is if you had the muscle before and you brought in these nuclei and they differentiated and turned into a nuclei, and then the muscle got small again, you preserve those nuclei.

这就是为什么当你重新训练时，肌肉第二次增长的速度比第一次更快，因为那些肌核早已存在。

And that's why when you go to train again, they were already around, so the muscle grows faster the second time than it did the first time.

但现在看来，实际情况可能并非如此。

Well, now it looks like that's actually not the case.

事实上，更可能的情况是，肌核在访问生长肌肉所需DNA的能力上发生了表观遗传变化。

In fact, it's actually probably what's happening is it's it's a epigenetic change in the nuclei's ability to access the DNA needed to grow muscle.

换句话说，我们使用的类比是：这些肌核就像记得如何骑自行车一样。

It's effectively, the analogy we used, it's the nuclei are remembering how to ride a bike.

所以你这么说挺有趣的，因为这并不是说它们在时间中被保留了下来。

So it's quite funny that you said that because it's not really necessarily that they're being preserved over time.

它们已经学会了在该处合成蛋白质的序列，因此第二次发生时速度更快。

They have learned the sequence it takes to grow the protein there and it goes, it happens faster the second time.

我们还发现存在特定的细胞核。

And we've also learned that there are specific nuclei.

其实我们对此已经知道一段时间了。

We've known this for actually a while.

这是我们实验室发现的，但我们并不是第一个发现者。

We found this in our lab, and we didn't discover it.

我们在一些杂交样本中观察到了这一点，但细胞核的形状各不相同。

We saw this in some of our hybrids, but there are different shapes in the nuclei.

有些呈椭圆形，有些更细长，而形状决定了大部分功能。

Some are more oval, some are more elongated, and the shape determines a lot of the function.

有些位于细胞边缘附近，有些则紧贴细胞核周围。

Some of them are hanging out more towards periphery and some of them are hanging out right around the nucleus.

嗯，看起来实际上可能有不同的细胞核类型。

Well, it looks like there's actually probably different types of nuclei.

其中很多与线粒体有关。

A lot of them that are specific to the mitochondria.

事实上，从我们的一些成像中可以看到，它们就紧密地分布在细胞器周围。

In fact, you can see like on some of the imaging we have, we're just like, they're just packed around the mitochondria.

还有一些可能与损伤修复有关。

And there are some that are probably specific to injury repair.

因此，这可能解释了大量个体差异。

And so this is probably explaining a lot of the individual variation.

我的意思是，我知道你之前说过，你恢复得特别慢。

I mean, I know you've said previously, like, you're just a very, you're very slow at recovering.

这其中涉及很多因素。

There's a lot of things that go into that.

我很乐意稍后详细梳理一下恢复过程中的各种因素。

And I love to walk through sort of all the buckets maybe later into recovery.

但其中一种固有的遗传差异可能是，你体内负责组织修复的细胞核数量更多或更少。

But one of the inherent genetic variations is could be simply that you maybe have more or less of the nuclei responsible for tissue repair.

在过去几个月里，这一点才逐渐被揭示出来。

That's something that's been happening in the last like handful of months that's been coming out.

我们还得看看这是否真的成立。

We'll see if that holds up is true or not.

随着我们每天对肌肉生理学的了解越来越多，最有趣、最令人兴奋的是，关于如何训练、如何饮食以及如何做其他一切以实现这些适应性的方法，其实早已被长期确立了。

So as we're learning more and more almost every day about muscle physiology, what's super fun and interesting and I think the most exciting what to do in terms of like how to train and how to eat and how to do everything else to get these adaptations has been pretty well established for a long, long, long time.

我们现在只是在弄清楚肌肉内部究竟发生了什么，但已经知道该怎么做。

We're just figuring out how, like what's happening in the muscle now, but we know what to do.

因此，从实际角度来看，无论你想达成或避免什么目标，无论使用哪种训练方式，如果你没有健身房，只有哑铃。

So from a practical standpoint, putting together protocols for any outcome that you want or don't want for any modality, you don't have a gym, you have weights.

你只有哑铃。

You have dumbbells only.

你只有壶铃。

You only have kettlebells.