嘉宾系列 | 马特·沃克博士：改善睡眠的实用方案

所以这个类比是，假设我是你的运动教练，而你是一位体育超级巨星。

So the analogy would be, let's say that I'm your athletic coach and you're a sports superstar.

我可以把一切都做到完美。

I can perfect everything.

我可以完善你的饮食和补充剂。

I can perfect diet, your supplements.

我们可以完善你的技术。

We can perfect your technique.

我们可以做到尽善尽美，但如果你脚踝受伤了，这些措施现在都无法改善你的表现。

We can perfect but if you've got a broken ankle, none of those things are going to alter your performance right now.

你必须先去看医生，处理好伤势，然后我们才能回来进一步优化你的表现。

You've got to get to a doctor and get that seen to you, and then we can come back to fine tuning your performance.

睡眠也是如此。

It's the same with sleep.

如果你有睡眠障碍，比如打鼾、睡眠呼吸暂停或失眠，我们首先需要让你去看医生。

If you've got a sleep disorder, such as snoring, sleep apnea, or insomnia, we need to get you to a doctor first.

只有在问题解决之后，我们才能重新回来进行优化。

And then only after that, come back once you're resolved, then we can start to optimize.

这可能是我唯一需要补充的了。

That's the only other thing I probably should mention.

是的，这个讨论非常有用，因为我想，肯定有些人会想，他们在说些什么啊？

Yeah, this is all very useful discussion because I think that, of course, there will be those folks out there that just like, what are they talking about?

我晚上睡得特别好。

I sleep so well at night.

你要为自己感到幸运。

You know, consider yourself blessed.

很多人在睡眠方面都面临困扰。

Many, many people struggle with challenges with sleep.

我认为可以说，迟早大多数人都会因为各种原因遇到一些睡眠问题。

And I think it's fair to say that sooner or later, most everybody experiences some challenges with sleep, for whatever reason.

如果你看看统计数据，这种情况非常普遍。

If you look at the statistics, that's highly likely.

在你的一生中，你很可能经历一段睡眠困难，甚至确实经历一次失眠。

In your lifetime, you are more than likely to go through either a period of challenging sleep, or in fact, a bout of insomnia.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor AG1.

AG1是一种含有维生素、矿物质、益生菌的饮品，还添加了适应原，旨在满足你的所有基础营养需求。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens and is designed to meet all of your foundational nutritional needs.

到目前为止，我相信你们都听过我说，我从2012年起就开始服用AG1。

By now, I'm sure you've all heard me say that I've been taking AG1 since 2012.

确实如此。

Indeed, that is true.

当然，我每天都会摄入正常的全食物。

Now, of course, I do consume regular whole foods every day.

我努力让这些食物主要来自未加工或轻度加工的来源。

I strive to get those foods mostly from unprocessed or minimally processed sources.

然而，我发现每天很难摄入足够的水果和蔬菜。

However, I do find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day.

所以通过AG1，我确保自己摄入了足够的维生素、矿物质、益生元纤维以及其他通常存在于水果或蔬菜中的成分，当然我仍然会确保吃水果和蔬菜，以此作为保障，确保自己获得所需的所有营养。

So with AG1, I ensure that I get enough of the vitamins, minerals, prebiotic fiber, and other things typically found in fruits or vegetables, and of course I still make sure to eat fruits and vegetables, and in that way provide a sort of insurance that I'm getting enough of what I need.

此外，AG1中的适应原和其他微量营养素能有效缓解压力，确保我身体的细胞、器官和组织获得所需的物质。

In addition, the adaptogens and other micronutrients in AG1 really help buffer against stress and ensure that the cells and organs and tissues of my body are getting the things they need.

人们经常问我，如果只能选一种补充剂，那应该选什么，我总是回答：AG1。

People often ask me that if they were going to take just one supplement, what that supplement should be, and I always answer AG1.

如果你想尝试AG1，可以前往drinkag1.com/huberman领取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

你将获得五份免费的旅行装，外加一年份的维生素D3K2。

You'll get five free travel packs, plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.

再次提醒，网址是drinkag1.com/huberman。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

你提到了酒精。

You talked about alcohol.

我已经不再饮用酒精了。

I'm not a consumer of alcohol anymore.

我也不是。

Nor am I.

并不是因为我对它有什么抵触。

And it's not I it's not because I have anything against it.

是的。

Yeah.

很多人确实喜欢喝酒，我们并不是在评判他们。

Many people do enjoy it, and and no we're not calling judgment on them.

我的意思是，世界上很多地方的人都喜欢饮酒。

I mean, certainly much of the world enjoys alcohol.

除了破坏快速眼动睡眠之外，我们是否知道酒精会直接通过改变GABA等神经递质的释放模式来干扰睡眠，还是这种影响是间接的？

Can we talk a little bit more about aside from demolishing REM sleep, you know, do we know that alcohol causes these disruptions in sleep directly, meaning by changing the pattern of release of neurotransmitters like GABA, things of that sort, or is this an indirect effect?

比如，这是通过肠道微生物组进而影响睡眠的吗？

Like, you know, is this like through the gut microbiome that then impacts sleep?

我问这个问题的原因是，也许我们可以进一步探讨一些具体的建议和禁忌。

And the reason I ask is maybe we could get to some more specific dos and do not protocols.

比如，如果有人想喝一杯鸡尾酒，那么在睡觉前多久喝才不会过多影响他们的快速眼动睡眠呢？

So for instance, if somebody wants to have a cocktail, how close to sleep can they get, and not diminish their rapid eye movement sleep too much?

你知道，人们还是想要喝酒的。

You know, because people are still going to want to drink.

话虽如此，如果人们喝了几杯后就去睡觉，有没有什么办法可以在睡前尽量挽回一些睡眠质量？

And with that said, if people do have a couple of drinks, and then they go to sleep, is there anything they can do prior to sleep to try and rescue some of their quality sleep?

好问题。

Great question.

关于机制，实际上问题似乎不在于酒精本身，而在于酒精的一些代谢产物。

So in terms of the mechanism, it seems actually not to be the alcohol, but some of the metabolic byproducts of alcohol.

我们认为，主要的罪魁祸首可能是酒精代谢过程中产生的某些醛类物质。

We think that perhaps the main culprit may be some of the aldehydes that are the metabolic separate consequences of alcohol metabolism.

不过你提到了一个很好的观点，关于剂量与时间反应曲线的问题。

You make a good point though, in terms of the dose response timing curve.

我必须在什么时候停止饮酒才合适？

How late or how early do I have to cut myself off from alcohol?

人们已经做过这些研究，发现即使是在下午喝一杯葡萄酒，如果我们使用比克中心高精度的睡眠测量方法，也能观察到睡眠质量的下降和损害。

People have done those studies, and they have found that even an afternoon single glass of wine, if you measure sleep in the way that we measure it at Bicentre with high fidelity, you can see compromises and impairments.

我真希望我能告诉你不是这样。

I wish I could tell you otherwise.

基于这些数据，我给你的主要建议是：早上再去酒吧。

I would say that based on that data, the principal protocol advice I would have for you is go to the pub in the morning.

这样，当你准备睡觉时，酒精已经从你的体内代谢完毕了。不，不，我绝不会那样做。

That way, by the time you're about to sleep, the alcohol is out your system, and you could No, no, I would never.

作为一名公众科学家，我绝不会提倡为了金钱而这样做。

As a public scientist, I would never advocate necessarily for money.

我只是在跟你开玩笑。

I'm just kidding you.

但这是其中一个不幸的后果。

But that's sort of one of the unfortunate consequences.

如果说酒精对睡眠没有影响，那只是我对数据不够诚实。

There does seem to be an impact to say that there isn't is just me not being truthful about the data.

但再想想这里的权衡，如果你外出或招待朋友，要度过一个难忘的夜晚，打开一瓶钟爱的葡萄酒，喝上几杯，你的睡眠会受到影响吗？

But again, if you think about the trade off here, if you're going out or you're having friends over and you're gonna make an incredible evening of memories and you're going to open a favorite bottle of wine and have a couple of glasses of wine, is your sleep going to be compromised?

是的，会的。

Yes, it is.

但也许对于那个特定的夜晚，这种权衡是值得的。

But maybe that's worth the trade off for that specific night.

我只是不希望你这么做，你已经谈了很多了，我们的朋友彼得·阿蒂亚和其他人也说过很多。

I would just not wish you to and you've spoken a lot and so is our dear friend, Peter Attier and others.

似乎根本不存在安全的饮酒量。

There just doesn't seem to be any safe amount of alcohol.

但我会说，简单地考虑一下这种权衡，然而不要养成每周多次甚至更频繁这样做的习惯。

But I would say, think about that trade off simply, however, don't make it a habit that you're doing it, you know, multiple nights a week or more.

这大概就是我的建议。

That would probably be the advice.

很好。

Great.

那食物和睡眠呢？

What about food and sleep?

距离睡觉还有多久？

How close to sleep?

如果你想优化睡眠，吃饭可以吗？

Is it okay to have a meal if you want to optimize your sleep?

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我喜欢在晚上6点半左右吃最后一餐，然后在8点半到9点左右睡觉。

I I like to eat my final meal somewhere around 06:30PM, I go to sleep somewhere around 08:30, 9PM.

是的。

Yep.

在理想情况下，有时我会睡得晚一点。

In an ideal world, sometimes I go to sleep a bit later.

有时我会吃得晚一点。

Sometimes I eat a little bit later.

只是你知道的，这些事情本身有些变数。

It's just, you know, there's some variability with these.

但换个说法，食物摄入时间与睡眠质量之间有什么关系？

But put differently, what is the relationship between food intake and sleep quality in terms of timing of food intake?

然后我们可以稍微聊聊食物的宏量营养素。

And then perhaps we can talk a little bit about food macronutrients.

这非常有趣。

It's very interesting.

过去一直有一种根深蒂固的说法，认为为了获得最佳睡眠，我们必须在睡前三到四个小时停止进食。

There was somewhat of a dogma out there that we have to stop eating, you know, three or four hours before bed for optimal sleep.

如果你看看数据，就会发现结果其实很分散，这可不是双关。

If you look at the data, the data is quite a spread, no pun intended.

对某些人来说，这种做法效果非常好，如果他们在睡前两小时内进食，睡眠就会受到干扰。

There are some people for whom that works very well, and if they eat even two hours before bed, they just get disrupted in terms of their sleep.

其中一部分原因是因为人们吃得过饱，感觉不舒服。

Some of that is about people just feeling too full and not feeling comfortable.

另一个方面是，当你躺下时，胃酸反流的风险会增加，从而导致烧心，这非常难受。

Other aspects are that when you become recumbent, when you lie down, you have a higher risk of gastric reflux coming back up and therefore you get heartburn and that's pretty miserable.

人们也会通过进食时间与入睡时间的接近程度来描述这一现象。

People will describe that too by way of closer proximity of food intake relative to when you're falling asleep.

然而，如果你仔细查看数据，我本人大约一年前曾对此进行过深入研究，实际情况并没有那么极端。

Nevertheless, if you look at the data, and I did a recent, very deep dive on this personally myself about twelve months ago, it's not quite as extreme as the dogma makes out.

平均而言，如果你在睡前两小时进食，似乎并不会明显影响睡眠。

If you eat two hours before bed on average, it doesn't seem to necessarily harm your sleep.

但这和‘什么做法最能改善或提升睡眠’是完全不同的概念。

Now that's very different than saying what is best to improve or enhance your sleep.

但这些研究的设计初衷是考察负面影响。

But the way these studies were designed, it was looking at detriments.

然后他们将时间提前到睡前90分钟。

They then went to ninety minutes before sleep onset.

即便如此，也似乎没有明显的睡眠损害。

And even there, there didn't seem to be market impairments.

六十分钟时，你可能会开始看到一些迹象，但平均来看，效应量相对较弱。

Sixty minutes, you start to see maybe some signs, but on average, the effect size was somewhat weak.

但当你接近四十五分钟左右时，情况就开始恶化了。

But then when you get close to sort of forty five minutes or so, then things did start to deteriorate.

我认为这在很大程度上取决于你的生物钟类型，以及你的食欲和昼夜节律偏好。

I think it depends hugely on your chronotype and also just on your appetite, circadian rhythm preferences too.

我属于那种早上刚醒来时并不觉得饿的人。

I am someone who I do not feel very hungry when I first wake up in the morning.

我一整天大部分时间都不太觉得饿。

I don't feel very hungry throughout most of the day.

我大部分的热量摄入可能集中在几个小时内，大概四小时左右，甚至可能更短，只有三小时。

And I will onboard most of my calories probably in the hours, probably in about a four hour period, maybe less, even three hour period.

然后我会在睡前约九十分钟停止进食。

And then I will cut myself off about ninety minutes before sleep.

所以，我传统上会被认为是违反了至少提前三小时禁食的睡眠教条。

So I, classically, would have been considered as, you know, violating this sleep dogma of cutting yourself off at least three hours.

但我认为这非常个人化。

I think it's very personal though.

自己去试试看。

Just experiment with it.

你会了解自己的情况。

You will know the situation.

至于宏量营养素和特定食物成分，数据有些混杂。

As for macros and specific food components, the data is a little bit mixed.

我们确实知道，如果你的饮食高糖低蛋白，你的睡眠质量会更差。

Certainly what we know is that if you're eating a diet that is high in sugar and low in protein, your sleep is worse.

为什么会这样呢？

Why would that be the case?

我们认为其中一个原因是，摄入糖分可能会在代谢上产生一定活性。

Well, one of the reasons that we think is that if you onboard sugar, it can be somewhat metabolically active.

当它变得代谢活跃时，可能会略微升高你的体温，即核心体温。

And when it becomes metabolically active, it can increase your body temperature, your core body temperature, even just very subtly.

但这已经足以像我们之前讨论的那样，通过温度影响你的睡眠。

But that's enough to disrupt your sleep as we spoke about with temperature.

但就理想的宏量营养素甚至微量营养素饮食建议而言，我认为目前我们还没有足够的数据超越上述说法。

But I think in terms of really the, you know, what would be the ideal macronutrient and even micronutrient dietary recommendation that I would have for you, I don't think we have enough data yet above and beyond that statement.

是的。

Yeah.

是的，我曾经尝试过极低碳水化合物饮食，过去甚至短暂地采用过完全生酮饮食，尽管我是杂食者，会吃肉、鸡蛋，也会吃淀粉类食物、意大利面、米饭等。

Yeah, I've experienced when I eat a very low carbohydrate diet, which I've experimented with in the past, maybe even full ketogenic diet for brief periods of time, although I'm an omnivore, so I eat meat and eggs and I also eat starches, pastas, rice, etcetera.

但我们根据哈佛医学院的克里斯·帕尔默（Chris Palmer）所做的出色研究得知，他曾经做过这个播客的嘉宾。

But we know based on beautiful work from, for example, Chris Palmer from Harvard Medical School, who is a guest on this podcast.

我听过那期节目，非常棒。

I listened to that, it was great podcast.

是的，克里斯非常出色，他主张探索生酮饮食用于治疗某些精神疾病，不是所有，但确实是一些精神疾病。

Yeah, Chris is spectacular and has advocated the exploration of ketogenic diets for the treatment of various psychiatric conditions, not all, but psychiatric conditions.

似乎——他也同意我的观点——当人们采用极低淀粉、极低碳水化合物饮食时，有时会经历轻度躁狂。

It seems, and he agreed with me on this, that when people go on very low starch, very low carbohydrate diets, that sometimes they can experience a bit of hypomania.

有些人可能会出现睡眠问题。

Some people can and challenges with sleep.

有时人们之所以坚持这些饮食，是因为有精神健康方面的原因。

And sometimes there are psychiatric reasons why people stay on those diets anyway.

于是他们不得不采取其他措施来促进睡眠，比如药物、补充剂，或两者的结合。

And then they have to do other things to encourage their sleep, either pharmacology or supplementation or some combination.

但以我个人的亲身经历来说，如果我连续几天不吃淀粉类食物，就会发现很难获得优质的睡眠。

But I can say anecdotally for myself, I don't eat starches for a extended amount of time, a couple of days, I find it very hard to get quality sleep.

是的。

Yep.

这通过睡眠追踪器也能体现出来，比如入睡所需的时间比平时更长等等。

As indicated by sleep trackers and just sleep latency to fall asleep is longer than it is, etcetera.

所以我选择在晚上晚些时候摄入大部分碳水化合物，这实际上违背了‘白天早些时候吃碳水化合物’的普遍建议。

So I've opted to eat most of my carbohydrates later in the evening, which kind of violates every rule of eat your carbs early in the day.

我认为有一些数据支持这样的观点：白天早些时候摄入碳水化合物，可能对体重维持或减重有一定益处。

I think there are some data to support that eating carbohydrates early in the day may actually have certain benefits for weight maintenance or weight loss.

所以我意识到了这一点，但这些并不是我目前的目标。

So I realized that, but those aren't my goals at the moment.

维持体重，是的；减重，不是。

Weight maintenance, yes, weight loss, no.

所以我觉得，当我吃了一顿含有较多淀粉、如意大利面、米饭这类食物，且蛋白质相对较少的晚餐后，相比吃几块肋眼牛排配沙拉却没有任何淀粉的晚餐，我的睡眠质量明显更好。

So I think I certainly feel after eating a dinner that has a bit more starch, pasta, rice, these things of that sort, and a little bit lower protein as opposed to the inverse, like eating a couple of rib eye steaks and a salad, but no starch, that my sleep is substantially better.

我一直将这种现象归因于这些淀粉与色氨酸/血清素通路之间的关系。

And I always attributed that to the relationship between some of these starches and the tryptophan slash serotonin pathway.

是的，关于晚上摄入碳水化合物确实有一些研究数据支持。

Yeah, there is some data on that with the carbohydrate intake in the evening.

当然，色氨酸和碳水化合物的摄入会提供我们之前讨论过的褪黑素的前体物质。

And of course, that tryptophan and that carbohydrate intake will contain the precursor ingredients to something else that we've spoken about, which is melatonin.

因此，这实际上可能有助于健康地增强褪黑素信号。

And so that may actually help healthily boost that melatonin signal.

也有一些数据支持这一点。

And there's a little bit of data on that to support it too.

我们还进行了一项研究，观察了连续几晚的睡眠情况以及第二天的碳水化合物摄入量。

We also did a study where we were looking at night to night to night sleep and carbohydrate intake the next day.

研究结果似乎支持了你所描述的碳水化合物的一些益处。

And it did seem to support what you're describing in terms of some of the carbohydrate benefits.

我们还发现了一个奇怪的结果，几乎与我们最初的预测完全相反。

We also found a strange result that was almost the opposite prediction that we made.

早晨摄入碳水化合物也同样有助于人们醒来。

Carbohydrate intake in the morning, too, equally help people wake up.

我们对此有些困惑，但接下来会深入探讨原因。

And we were a little bit uncertain as to why, but we're going to go into more detail.

你提到建议不要在晚上摄入碳水化合物，部分原因是基于证据：人体在夜间处理糖分的能力会下降，而摄入碳水化合物会导致血糖水平显著升高。

The reason that you mentioned the suggestion of not to take on carbs in the evening is in part based on the evidence that your body's ability to dispose of sugar, and obviously when you're eating carbohydrate, you can have a higher spike of sugar.

不过，这在一定程度上取决于你与碳水化合物一起摄入的食物。

Now that in part depends on what you're eating with that carbohydrate.

此外，碳水化合物本身的性质也很重要，比如是简单糖类还是复杂碳水化合物，是单糖还是更复杂的淀粉类碳水。

And also, of course, the nature of that carbohydrate, whether it's simple or whether it's complex, whether it's simple sugars versus, you know, complex, more starchy carbohydrate.

但关键是，即使你在早晨、下午或晚上摄入相同数量和类型的碳水化合物，你的身体在晚上处理这些碳水化合物、避免血糖过度飙升的能力更差，而在早晨则更好。

But the idea is that your body, even if you were to eat the same amount of carbohydrate in the morning, in the afternoon, or in the evening, same carbohydrate dose and type, but your body's ability to dispose of that without having excessive spikes of glucose is worse in the evening, better in the morning, I.

如果你关心自己的血糖和代谢健康，也许这就是你应该做的。

E, if you're concerned about your blood sugar and your metabolic health, maybe that's what you should do.

我认为，如果你的血糖水平正常，也就是说你目前没有二型糖尿病的迹象，也不是糖尿病前期，那么情况可能并非如此。

I think that that data is unclear on the basis of if you are glycemic normal, meaning that you currently do not have signs of type two diabetes or you're not pre diabetic, then that may not necessarily be the case.

因此，我认为这对你是有好处的，我知道你对此深思熟虑，我自己也在追踪血糖水平。

And so I think that's why it could be beneficial for you, and I know that you think deeply about that, and I've even been tracking blood sugar as well.

我本身没有这些迹象，但我对这些数据以及它们如何影响我的睡眠非常着迷，因为我是个睡眠迷。

I don't have any signs of that, but I'm fascinated by some of that data and how it interacts with my sleep, because I'm a sleep nerd.

所以我认为，目前我们还没有足够的数据来推荐某种特定的‘睡眠饮食’以实现最佳优化。

So I think right now we just don't have plentiful data to recommend a particular sleep quote unquote diet for improved optimization.

不过，我认为我们可以对进食时间放松一点要求。

I would say though that we can be a little bit more relaxed about the timing of our food.

你之前提到过咖啡因，而咖啡因是我们第三集中深入探讨的话题。

Earlier you mentioned caffeine, and caffeine is a topic that we get into substantial depth in episode three.

但在这里，我要强调的是，咖啡因是全球使用最广泛的药物。

But there and now, I will emphasize that caffeine is the most commonly used drug worldwide.

我认为统计数据表明，90%以上的成年人每天都会饮用含咖啡因的饮料，这非常惊人。

I think the statistics says that ninety plus percent of adults consume caffeinated beverages every day, which is remarkable.

几年前，我记得《经济学人》上有一篇文章，绘制了咖啡因消费量最高的国家，其中位居榜首的国家，其每日消费量几乎是第二名的三到四倍。

And a few years back, I recall there was an article in The Economist that charted the countries for which the caffeine consumption was highest and way out on the peak, peak, peak of it was almost triple or quadruple what other what the second place country consumed each day was.

你能猜出哪个国家的咖啡因消费量最高吗？

Can you guess the country that consumes the most caffeine?

可能是茶、咖啡，或者任何形式的。

Could be tea, coffee, any form.

我猜是斯堪的纳维亚国家。

I'm going to suggest it's a Scandinavian country.

不，但它们确实排在前列。

No, but they're up there.

是瑞士。

It was Switzerland.

现在我不确定这种情况是否还存在，但据称瑞士人

Now I don't know if that's still the case, but apparently The the Swiss

我之所以这么猜，是因为我看过那个图表，我以为是瑞典。

reason I went, I was thinking it was because I've seen the graph, I was thinking it Sweden.

如果我记错了，肯定有人会在YouTube的评论区指出来。

And if I have that wrong, certainly someone will put it in the comments on YouTube.

不是的。

No.

瑞典也没错。

It's not wrong with Sweden.

瑞士人喝的咖啡因太多了。

Swiss drink so much caffeine.

他们有太多事情要思考。

They have a lot to think about.

所以我喜欢咖啡因。

So I love caffeine.

我喝黑咖啡、纯浓缩咖啡和马黛茶。

I drink black coffee, black espresso, and Yerba Mate.

我非常喜欢马黛茶。

I love Yerba Mate.

我从小就开始喝，因为我的家人中有阿根廷人。

I've been drinking it since I was a little one because of the Argentines in my family.

我通常在早上喝，大概在醒来后两小时左右，我会喝第一口咖啡因。

And I drink it in the early part of the day, typically a couple hours after waking or so, I'll have my first sip of caffeine.

然后我会尽量在中午或下午一点左右停止摄入咖啡因。

And then I try to stop drinking caffeine somewhere around noon or 1PM.

如果下午有重要工作需要完成，我偶尔会喝一两杯浓缩咖啡来提神。

Occasionally I'll have a shot or two of espresso in the early afternoon if there's important work to be done and I need to do that.

但我发现，即使这样也会以我不喜欢的方式影响我的睡眠。

But I've noticed that even that can alter my sleep in ways that I don't like.

但不知为什么，对我而言，下午的咖啡比早上的咖啡味道好得多。

But that afternoon coffee for some reason tastes so much better than the morning coffee for me.

我不

I don't

知道那是什么。

know what it is.

所以对我来说，就是一大早就喝很多咖啡和马黛茶。

So it's coffee yerba mate packed early into the day and a lot of it for me.

是的。

Yep.

我对它有很高的耐受性。

I have a high tolerance for it.

但之后我会逐渐减少。

But then I let it taper.

这种咖啡因摄入模式是最优的吗？

Is that an optimal contour of caffeine intake?

如果一个人非常重视睡眠，而且不喜欢咖啡因，完全不摄入咖啡因会更好吗？

Would zero caffeine be better if someone's just really committed to sleep and they don't like caffeine?

零摄入会比任何摄入都更好吗？

Would zero be better than any?

那下午含有咖啡因的咖啡或茶呢？

And what about that afternoon coffee or tea containing caffeine?

我的意思是，它对睡眠有多大的干扰？

I mean, how disruptive is it for sleep?

你所描述的这种模式——早上刚醒来时摄入量达到高峰，然后在下午早些时候逐渐减少，这是理想的。

So the profile that you described, which is high peak early on, first thing when you wake up, and then tapering off nicely down into the sort of early afternoon, ideal.

这听起来对我来说很棒。

That sounds great to me.

至于下午的咖啡，这真的取决于你预计什么时候睡觉。

As for that afternoon coffee, it really depends, again, on when you're expecting to go to sleep.

对于像你这样的人，我会建议尝试戒掉下午的咖啡，或者如果你用的是咖啡胶囊或其他方式冲泡，不妨做个实验：换成无咖啡因的饮品，持续两周，然后看看下午这杯咖啡到底对你的睡眠造成了多大影响。

Now, for someone like you, I would say, I would love to look at abstaining from that, or just switching it out to, if you're using, you know, these pods, or however you're brewing it, let's just switch it out and do an experiment for two weeks, and we will look to see how much is that afternoon coffee really impacting your sleep.

我们会用可穿戴设备高精度地追踪你的睡眠情况。

And we'll track your sleep with some degree of high fidelity with a wearable.

让我们来验证这个假设，因为你睡得相当早。

And let's test that hypothesis because you go to sleep quite early.

你是个早起的人，甚至可能接近极端早起型。

You are an early bird, maybe bordering on an extreme early bird.

我们之前讨论过不同类型的生物钟节律。

And we'll speak about, or we have spoken about those different flavors of chronotype.

鉴于你睡得这么早，我建议你下午不要摄入咖啡因。

I would prefer you not to be having that caffeine in the afternoon based on how early you go to sleep.

我提出这个建议是因为你描述的睡眠维持性失眠问题。

And I mentioned that preference because of what you described regarding your sleep maintenance insomnia.

咖啡因的问题不仅在于它可能让你更难入睡，而你在这方面问题不大，但如果你频繁夜间醒来、难以重新入睡，你每晚都会累积睡眠赤字，而且这个赤字会不断增长，就像贷款的复利一样。

One of the issues with caffeine is that not only can it make it more difficult for you to fall asleep, which you don't have in part because if you're waking up quite frequently throughout the night and struggling to get back to sleep, you're going to be carrying a sleep debt into every night, and that debt continues to grow, it's almost like compounding interest on the loan.

所以你不会存在入睡困难的问题。

So you will not have a problem falling asleep.

事实上，有些人入睡太快，一些睡眠追踪器甚至会因此给你扣分，因为在睡眠科学和临床睡眠医学中，健康的入睡时间应该是五到十五分钟，最多二十分钟。

In fact, sometimes the speed with which people fall asleep, and some of these sleep trackers will almost penalize you for falling asleep too quickly, is because in sleep science and clinical sleep medicine, if you're, it should take you somewhere, you know, a healthy sleep onset, you know, five to fifteen, twenty minutes.

但当你把头放在枕头上，关掉灯后，一两分钟内你就完全失去意识，睡着了。

But if you put your head on the pillow and you turn off the light and within a minute or so, you're dead to the world and you're gone.

没错，我担心你背负着睡眠债务。

I'm, exactly, I'm worried that you're, A, carrying a sleep debt.

不一定是这样，但我希望和你一起探讨一下。

No, not necessarily, but I would like to explore it with you.

然后我想说，即使你能顺利入睡，夜间醒来这一问题也与咖啡因有关。

And then I would say, even if you can fall asleep fine, this factor of waking up in the middle of the night is also related to caffeine.

为什么？

Why?

因为咖啡因不仅会让人更难入睡——这并不是你的问题，但它会阻止你进入深度睡眠，让你停留在较浅的非快速眼动睡眠状态。

Because caffeine not only can make it harder to fall asleep, not your problem, but it keeps you out of that deep, deep sleep, And it puts you into a more shallow state of non rapid eye movement sleep.

当你处于浅睡状态时，一方面更容易被唤醒，另一方面——我认为这更是关键问题——你更难重新入睡，因为你的大脑并不一定想再次沉入深度睡眠，也没有真正从深度睡眠中清醒过来。

And when you are in the shallow state, it's A, easier for you to be woken up, but B, and I think more of the problem, it's harder for you to fall back asleep because your brain doesn't necessarily want to go back down into that deep sleep and nor has it come up out of that deep sleep.

所以当你醒来时，你并不处在那种美妙、浓郁、沉甸甸的困倦状态中；你去上个厕所，回来后心里想：哦，这下肯定能睡个好觉。

So you're not in that wonderful, glorious, thick, treacly sort of sleepy state when you wake up, you go to the restroom, you come back, and you just know, Oh, this is gonna be great.

只要我能摸黑回到床垫上，再过两分钟我就又睡着了。

As long as I can fumble my way back to my mattress, I'm gonna be asleep within another two minutes going back to it.

而对你来说，你醒来后很可能感觉非常清醒。

Whereas for you, you probably wake up and you feel pretty wide awake.

我想看看，如果我们取消你下午喝咖啡的习惯，对你夜间醒来的频率和持续时间会有什么影响。

I would like to see what happens when we negate that afternoon coffee on the frequency and the duration of those middle of the night awakenings for you.

是的。

Yeah.

我确实在努力避免下午摄入咖啡因，而且我已经开始感受到这样做的一些积极效果，太好了。

I'm definitely making the effort to avoid caffeine intake in the afternoon, and I think already starting to see some of the positive benefits of doing that Great.

这从我下午喝了咖啡后出现的负面表现中就可以看出来。

As evidenced by the days that I consume caffeine in the afternoon and experience the the deficits.

这确实是真实存在的。

It's a real thing.

而且我相信你以前在另一个播客里提到过相关数据。

And I I believe you've about the numbers on a different podcast previously.

谈谈咖啡因的代谢过程，以及不同人群在咖啡因代谢调节方面的差异。

Talk a little bit about the metabolism of caffeine and and maybe even some of the variations that exist between people in terms of the metabolic regulation of caffeine.

所以，比如说，一杯普通的咖啡或一杯浓缩咖啡，大概含有多少咖啡因？天啊，我不知道，大概是150毫克？

So how long let's say, a standard cup of coffee or a cup of espresso, and it has a gosh, I don't know, 150 of caffeine?

是200毫克吗？

Is that two hundred?

是的，差不多是150。

Yeah, be one

一百五十到两百毫克。

hundred and fifty, two hundred.

是的，我们就说200毫克吧，因为如今咖啡师调制饮品时，咖啡因含量往往会偏高。

Yeah, let's say two hundred because certainly, you know, a barista these days is going to draw a beverage They're going

过高了。

over index.

是的。

Yeah.

假设摄入两百毫克咖啡因，某人在下午1点午餐后饮用，而他们的就寝时间比我要更规律一些，大约在晚上10点到11点之间。

So let's say two hundred milligrams, and somebody consumes that after lunch at 1PM, and their bedtime is, let's make them more conventional than I, somewhere between ten and 11PM.

是的。

Yeah.

好的，那么从饮用咖啡到就寝大约相隔十个小时。

Okay, so they're about ten to ten hours out from their bedtime.

他们在午餐后喝了一杯浓烈的、所谓的优质咖啡。

They're having a nice strong, quote unquote, nice strong cup of coffee after lunch.

这在生化层面会对他们的睡眠产生什么影响？

What does that look like in terms of their biochemistry and impact on sleep?

咖啡因的半衰期大约为五到六小时，也就是说，五到六小时后，仍有约50%的咖啡因在你的血液和大脑中循环。

So caffeine has something that we call a half life of about five to six hours, meaning that after five to six hours, about 50% of that caffeine is still circulating in your bloodstream and thus your brain.

这意味着咖啡因的四分之一衰减期大约在十到十二小时之间。

That means that caffeine has a quarter life of somewhere between ten to twelve hours.

不过这是平均水平，我们稍后会再讨论个体差异。

Now this is on average, and we'll come back to variations.

但你可以这样想。

But think of it this way.

如果你在中午喝了一杯咖啡，就像你描述的那样，然后晚上十一点或午夜才睡觉，根据我刚才说的，这就相当于在进入睡眠时体内还残留着四分之一的咖啡因。

If you're taking a cup of coffee, like you described there, at midday, and then you're going to bed at, let's say, eleven or midnight, that would be the equivalent, based on what I've just told you, the quarter life of getting yourself into bed.

就在你上床前，你一口气喝下四分之一杯咖啡，然后指望能睡个好觉。

And just before you took yourself into bed, you swig a quarter of a cup of coffee and you hope for a good night of sleep.

但很可能你根本睡不好。

And the chances are that it may not happen.

当然，这说法有点夸张，但请你试着从这个角度去理解。

Now, again, that's a little bit sort of hyperbolic as statement, but just try to conceptualize it in that way.

你绝不会想到，就在戴上眼罩前，还喝下最后一口咖啡。

You would never think about taking on, you know, a last quarter cup of coffee just before you put your eye mask on.

不会。

No.

但我有一些朋友，甚至有一个为播客团队工作的人，当我们外出时，团队一起吃晚饭，他会在晚上九点吃完饭后点一大杯咖啡。

But I have some friends and somebody actually who works with the podcast team and we'll go out to dinner as a team when we're on the road and he'll order, you know, big coffee right after a 9PM dinner.

我当时就想，你这样能睡得着吗？

And I was like, can you sleep on this?

我以为，哦，是的，没问题。

I thought, oh, yeah, no problem.

而这个‘没问题’部分原因在于，我入睡从来不是问题。

And that no problem is in part this, I don't have an issue with falling asleep.

但如果我们根据数据来绘制他们的大脑电活动，你就能看到深度非快速眼动睡眠的减少。

But if we were to, based on the data, map their electrical brain activity, you would be able to see this reduction in the deep non REM sleep.

根据数据，这种减少幅度大约在15%到20%之间。

And it can reduce it if you look at the data somewhere between 15 to 20%.

如果我要让你的深度睡眠减少15%到20%，我可能得让你老上二十到二十二岁。

Now, for me to reduce your deep sleep by 15 to 20%, I would probably have to age you by about twenty to twenty two years.

或者，你也可以每晚靠喝深夜咖啡来实现，但你可不希望这样。

Or you could just do it every night with a late night coffee, you wish.

所以，再次强调，我提过这一点，也许我们会在后续的节目中再讨论。

So again, I've, and maybe we'll speak about this in later episodes.

我对咖啡因的看法改变了。

I have changed my mind on caffeine.

我认为早晨摄入咖啡因或咖啡——我应该说得更具体些——是没问题的，因为我相信它有健康益处，我们可以在后续节目中深入探讨咖啡和咖啡豆本身如何带来这些益处。

I think morning caffeine use or coffee, I should say, being more specific, is fine because I think there are health benefits and we can go into in subsequent episodes why coffee and the coffee bean itself can provide those benefits.

因此，我对早晨摄入咖啡因的态度变得更为积极了。

So I've become a little bit more bullish on morning caffeine.

但晚上摄入咖啡因，我认为数据根本不支持这种做法。

But evening caffeine, I just think it's, the data is just not supportive.

即使你——正如你提问时非常敏锐地指出的那样——有些人确实存在差异，我之前说过，平均而言，咖啡因的半衰期大约是五到六小时。

Even if you are, and there are variations and you were very astute in your question, some people, I said on average caffeine has a half life of about five to six hours.

对一些人来说，它的代谢更快，对另一些人则更慢。

For some people it's quicker and for other people it's slower.

这是为什么呢？

Why is that?

这与一个基因有关，而我们已经知道了这个基因。

It's based on a gene and we know the gene.

这是一种属于肝脏酶家族的基因。

It's a gene that is part of a set of liver enzymes.

这个基因被称为CYP1A2基因。

And the gene is called the CYP1A2 gene.

这个基因存在一些变异，我们称之为多态性。

And there are variations in that gene, what we call polymorphisms.

你可以购买这些基因检测套件，它们很可能告诉你属于哪种类型。

And you can do these genetic tests that you can buy these kits, and they will probably tell you which you are.

你对咖啡因敏感吗？

Are you sensitive?

你对咖啡因不敏感吗？

Are you not sensitive?

你大概已经知道了。

You probably already know.

因此，有些人敏感度较低，因此他们的咖啡因半衰期更短，因为咖啡因在他们体内代谢得更快。

And so some people will not be as sensitive, and therefore they can have a more compressed timeframe of a half life because it's moving out of their system in a quicker manner.

所以，我并不是想制造争议。

So again, I'm not trying to be skirmongering.

我认为早上喝咖啡是完全没有问题的。

I think you can have coffee in the morning and you'll be just fine.

对于深夜喝咖啡，如果你有这个习惯，我建议你尽量避免。

That late night coffee, I would I would like to see you obviate that if you are someone who's doing it.

下午喝咖啡听起来可以偶尔为之，如果只是为了口感，最好大部分时间选择无咖啡因的。

And the afternoon coffee sounds like a, you know, maybe only every once in a while and try and make it mostly decaf or decaf for that matter, if it's really just for the taste.

是的。

Yeah.

如果只是为了口感，那就选无咖啡因的。

If it's just for the taste, go decaf.

如果不是，我明白我所说的某种程度上是理想状态。

If it's not, I understand that in some ways, what I'm talking about is the ideal world.

鼓声响起，事实是我们大多数人并不生活在那样的理想世界里。

And drum roll, it turns out that most of us don't live in that.

我们生活在这个被称为现实世界的地方。

We live in this thing called the real world.

因此，如果你正面临一种情况，比如工作压力大，或者你是一名高水平运动员，这正是关键时刻，这是你的一切，你要明白，你可能会在夜间牺牲一些睡眠，但这种牺牲可能是值得的。

And so if you are facing a circumstance where if you're under pressure at work or if you're a high performing athlete and this is it, this is the event, this is it's all in our thing, understand that you are going to sacrifice some sleep at night, but maybe that sacrifice is well worth it.

所以，我再次强调，我非常开放。

So again, I'm very open minded.

我并不是想对这个问题过于僵化。

I'm not trying to be simply, you know, too rigid with this.

我想短暂休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商InsideTracker。

I want to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, InsideTracker.

InsideTracker是一个个性化营养平台，通过分析你的血液和DNA数据，帮助你更好地了解自己的身体，并实现健康目标。

InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals.

我长期以来一直相信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单：许多影响你短期和长期健康的因素，只有通过高质量的血液检测才能分析出来。

Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done, for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test.

然而，目前很多血液检测的问题在于，你虽然会收到关于代谢指标、激素等方面的反馈，但却不知道该如何利用这些信息。

The problem with a lot of blood tests out there, however, is that you get information back about metabolic factors, hormones, etc, but you don't know what to do with that information.

通过InsideTracker，他们让你很容易理解自己的检测结果，并且还会为你提供具体的建议，涵盖营养、运动、补充剂，甚至可以帮助你将各项指标调整到最佳范围的处方药。

With InsideTracker, they make it very easy to understand your results, and they also point you to specific directives that you can follow in the realm of nutrition, exercise, supplementation, even prescription drugs that can help bring the levels back into the ranges that are optimal for you.

InsideTracker还推出了InsideTracker Pro服务，使教练和健康专业人士能够利用InsideTracker的分析与建议，为客户提供高端且个性化的服务。

InsideTracker also offers InsideTracker Pro, which enables coaches and health professionals to provide premium and personalized services by leveraging InsideTracker's analysis and recommendations with their clients.

如果你想尝试InsideTracker，可以访问insidetracker.com/huberman，享受任何计划20%的折扣。

If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTracker's plans.

再次提醒，网址是insidetracker.com/huberman。

Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman.

你之前谈到了酒精对睡眠的影响。

So you've talked about alcohol its effects on sleep.

你谈到了咖啡因对睡眠的影响。

You've talked about caffeine and its effects on sleep.

我们也讨论了食物对睡眠的影响。

And we talked about food and its effects on sleep.

那THC和CBD呢？

What about THC and CBD?

有时更笼统地称为大麻。

Sometimes referred to more generally as cannabis.

你知道，有趣的是，我小时候，大麻是非法的。

And you know, it's interesting, you know, gosh, when I was growing up, you know, cannabis was illegal.

如今，在许多地方，大麻要么合法，要么被容忍，要么非刑事化，但并非所有地方都如此。

Nowadays, it's either legal or tolerated or decriminalized in many places, not all.

但我认为，关于大麻的态度已经发生了转变，许多合法使用大麻的人，其使用原因和人们饮酒类似，比如产生镇静作用、轻微的催眠效果。

But I would say there's been a tide shift in terms of cannabis, meaning that many people consume cannabis who are consuming it legally, and consume it for a lot of reasons that other people consume alcohol in, you know, a sedative effect, a slight hypnotic effect.

我的意思是，这些药物在精神医学文献中的确切作用，当然有特定的术语。

I mean, you know, the actual definition of what these drugs do, it goes by certain terms in the psychiatric literature, of course.

但为了所谓地放松、感觉更平静、减轻焦虑，这和我小时候的情况截然不同——那时候，如果你被发现吸大麻或白天抽大麻烟斗，会惹上大麻烦，而我现在明白，大多数人并不会在工作时这么做。

But in order to quote unquote mellow out, to feel more relaxed, to reduce their anxiety, It's as far and away different than when I was growing up where, I mean, you would get into a lot of trouble if you were caught smoking a joint or taking a bong rip in the middle of the day, but not and I realize most people aren't doing that at work.

我想这取决于你在哪里工作。

I guess it depends on where you work.

至于大麻食品、酊剂，等等，THC和CBD的使用在许多地方都非常普遍，尽管存在合法性问题，以及年轻人不应使用它们的事实——18岁及以下的人群，不仅因为法律原因，更因为大脑仍在发育。

It, you know, edibles, tinctures, I mean, the consumption of THC and CBD is quite So robust in a lot of with all the issues of legality, and the fact that people who, young people should not be consuming them, I people 18 and younger, not just for legal reasons, but the brain is still developing.

关于THC、CBD、大麻、食用品、吸食和酊剂对睡眠的具体影响，情况如何？

What is the story with THC, CBD, cannabis, edible, smoked, tinctures on sleep specifically?

如果你首先看看人们使用大麻的动机，这非常有趣。

It's very interesting if you look firstly at the motivational reasons why people use cannabis.

根据已发表的研究，睡眠是人们使用大麻的前两大原因之一。

Based on the published study, somewhere in the top two reasons, sleep.

为了入睡并保持睡眠。

To fall and stay asleep.

为了入睡并保持睡眠。

To fall asleep and stay asleep.

显然，最主要的第一原因通常是为了感到兴奋，体验和享受飘飘然的感觉，如果你喜欢那种感觉的话。

Obviously, usually the principal first reason is just to get high and have the experience and the pleasure of being high, if that's what sort of floats your Floats your train.

如果你喜欢那种感觉的话。

Floats your train.

但毫无疑问，睡眠作为一种催眠剂，能让你入睡，这个词源自希腊语中睡眠之神的词源。

But certainly it's, you know, sleep as it and what we call a hypnotic to put you asleep from the Greek derivative of the god for sleep.

这是人们使用大麻的主要原因之一。

That is high among the reasons that people will use.

我们目前不推荐使用。

We currently don't recommend it.

原因如下。

And here is why.

当然，THC能帮助你更快入睡。

Certainly THC helps you fall asleep faster.

数据非常明确。

Very clear in the data.

问题是，你首先会开始产生耐受性，为了获得同样的助眠效果，你需要使用更高的剂量。

The problem is that first you start to develop a tolerance and to get that same sleep onset benefit, you need to get use, I should say, a higher dose.

因此，你会逐渐产生依赖，用药剂量也会逐渐增加。

So you start to develop dependency and your dose regimen starts to increase.

THC的第二个问题是，它会显著抑制你的梦境睡眠，即REM睡眠。

The second issue with THC is that it's very good at blocking your dream sleep, your REM sleep.

事实上，许多人在来咨询时告诉我：我曾经是大麻的重度使用者，甚至有一段时间是轻度使用者。

And in fact, many people, when they come in, they tell me, look, I was a heavy cannabis user, even a light cannabis user for some time.

然后我停止了使用。

And then I stopped using.

结果发生了一件非常奇怪的事——我开始做极其狂野、生动、疯狂的梦。

And one of the strangest things happened to me, I just started to have the most wild, vivid, crazy dreams.

我当时完全不知道发生了什么。

I didn't know what was going on.

这其实有一个非常简单的解释。

And it's a very simple explanation.

在你使用大麻期间，你的大脑一直受到抑制，获得的REM睡眠量严重不足。

As you've been using, your brain has been compromised in the amount of REM sleep it's been getting.

你长期累积了REM睡眠的欠债。

And you've been building up chronically a REM sleep debt.

而你的大脑很聪明，它会试图某种程度上记录你损失了多少REM睡眠。

And your brain is smart in the sense that it does try to clock to some degree a counter of how much REM sleep you've lost.

很多人会说，是的，我使用大麻的时候根本记不住自己的梦。

And many people will say, yeah, I don't really remember my dreams when I'm using.

但当他们停止使用后，大脑终于摆脱了阻碍REM睡眠的物质，不仅恢复了正常人应有的REM睡眠量，还会出现所谓的REM睡眠反弹——即更多、更强烈的REM睡眠，从而导致更强烈的梦境。

But when they stop, the brain finally, because it's been cleansed of the thing that's the roadblock to REM sleep, not only do they go back to having the normal amount of REM sleep that people would have, they have that, plus they have what we call a REM sleep rebound, which is even more and more intense REM sleep, which leads to more intense dreaming.

所以，我猜测很多正在听的使用者，如果他们曾经使用过并已停止，很可能都经历过这种情况。

So it's a very, I suspect there's a lot of people who've had that experience listening if they have been users and they've stopped.

这就是我们不建议使用大麻的第二个原因。

So that's the second reason we don't advocate it.

第三个原因是，当你停止使用时，还会经历一种非常严重的失眠戒断综合症，很多人都是如此。

The third reason is that when you stop using, you also go through a very vicious insomnia withdrawal syndrome, often many people will do.

不过，这取决于你使用了多久、使用量有多大。

Now that depends on, you know, how much you've been using for how long you've been using.

如果你查看数据，顺便说一句，精神科诊断中关于大麻戒断的临床描述之一就是失眠。

If you look at the data, and by the way, part of the clinical diagnostic, the psychiatric diagnostic description of cannabis withdrawal is insomnia.

这足以证明，一旦停用大麻，失眠问题有多么普遍和可靠。

That's how reliable this insomnia problem is when you come off cannabis.

如果你查看数据，人们复吸并重新开始使用大麻的主要原因之一，即使他们并不想这样做，是因为他们无法应对戒断带来的失眠。

And if you look at the data, one of the main reasons that people relapse and start using cannabis again, even though they don't want to, is because they can't deal with the insomnia that withdrawal has given them.

所以你不希望陷入这种恶性循环。

So you don't want to get into that vicious cycle.

如果你愿意，这仍然是你的选择。

Should you wish, again, it's your choice.

因此，我认为目前不建议使用THC。

So THC, I think, is not to be advised right now.

CBD很有趣。

CBD is interesting.

目前还没有足够的数据让我们形成非常明确的观点，但我至少可以分享一下我的看法。

I don't think there's enough data yet for us to have a very strong opinion, but I can at least offer mine.

到目前为止，关于CBD的效果大小，数据有些不一致。

The data so far is a little bit mixed in what we call the effect size.

换句话说，CBD对睡眠的益处有多可靠、多显著。

In other words, how reliable and how powerful is the benefit of CBD on sleep.

但它似乎确实有一些益处。

But it does seem to have some benefit.

有趣的是，它似乎没有我刚才描述的THC的那些负面影响。

What's interesting is that it doesn't seem to have the detriments that I just described for THC.

你在看待CBD的数据时需要稍微谨慎一些。

You've got to be looking at the data a little bit careful with CBD.

它的作用呈现一种U型曲线，也就是说，如果你摄入的量太少，我真的很注意不试图给出具体数字。

It has what's called a U shaped function to it, which is that if you're taking too little, and again, I really am so mindful of not trying to be, okay, here are the numbers.

但如果你看一下这些数据，大致估算一下，可能低于二十五毫克。

But if you look at them, I would say, you know, kind of cross your eyes, squint your eyes, maybe less than twenty five milligrams.

你就会面临CBD反而促进清醒而非促进睡眠的风险。

You run into the danger of CBD being wake promoting rather than sleep promoting.

但一旦你超过大约五十毫克，就会进入相反的方向，它似乎开始促进睡眠。

But once you get past, if you look ish, fifty milligrams and above, then you start to go in the opposite direction where it seems to be sleep promoting.

我提到这一点是因为至少在美国和世界许多地方，这个行业尚未受到监管。

And I mentioned that just because at least here in The United States and in many places in the world, that industry is not regulated.

所以瓶子上可能写着50毫克。

So it may say fifty milligrams on the bottle.

你其实并不知道这些公司中有些会进行所谓的第三方实验室检测，他们会把产品送检，你可以扫描一个QR码，查看独立实验室的检测结果，了解其纯度。

You don't really know how some of those companies will have what's called third party laboratory testing, where they'll send it out and you can scan a QRI code and you can look at an independent laboratory that tested it and show you the purity of it.

所以这可能是一种可行的方法。

So that may be one way to go.

因此，我认为目前CBD有一些有利的证据。

So CBD, I think, has some favorable evidence right now.

如果是这样，假设五年后你我再次交谈，那时已经有了非常充分的数据支持这一点。

If that's the case, let's just assume that you and I speak in another five years time and there's really good data now for this.

可能的机制是什么？

What could be the mechanisms?

我认为至少有两个，可能有三个机制。

I think there's at least, there's probably at least two, maybe three mechanisms.

第一个是间接机制。

The first is an indirect mechanism.

CBD在一些出色的研究中已被很好地证明具有抗焦虑作用，这是一个专业术语，意思是它能减轻你的焦虑。

CBD has been demonstrated very nicely in some fantastic studies to be an anxiolytic, which is a fancy term for saying it reduces down your anxiety.

之前你和我讨论过，焦虑和压力是导致你失眠的原因之一。

And earlier you and I discussed that anxiety and stress is one of the things that will keep you awake.

因此，它间接地移除了阻碍你进入睡眠正途的这道障碍。

So indirectly, it removes this kind of gate that is preventing you from moving down the royal road of sleep.

它重新打开了这道门，因为它消除了高焦虑这一障碍机制。

And it opens back up the gate because it's removed that gate mechanism, which is high anxiety.

通过其抗焦虑作用，它缓解了焦虑，使你更容易入睡。

And by way of being anxiolytic, it soften that anxiety and it's easier for you to fall asleep.

我认为，这可能是我目前最看好的主要机制。

I think that's probably the principal mechanistic bet I would have right now.

另一个间接机制。

Another indirect mechanism.

如果你看看一些大鼠研究，而我们在我的睡眠中心做的是人类研究，所以我们不做动物实验。

If you look at some of the studies in rats, and we do human work at my sleep center, so we don't do animal studies.

但如果你查看大鼠的数据，CBD具有降低体温的作用，也就是说它会降低你的核心体温。

But if you look at the data in the rats, CBD can be hypothermic, which means that it drops your core body temperature.

正如我们之前在这期节目中讨论的，你需要降低体温才能入睡。

And just as we spoke about earlier in this episode, you need to drop your body temperature to get to sleep.

所以我认为这是第二个原因。

So I think that's the second reason.

我认为第三个原因是它可能具有直接促进睡眠的机制。

I think the third reason is that it could have a direct sleep promoting mechanism.

目前还不清楚它究竟是如何与大脑的睡眠机制相互作用的。

I think it's unclear right now exactly how it's interacting with the sleep machinery of the brain.

我们有一些假设。

We've got some hypotheses.

风险在于，它又是一种缺乏严格监管的物质。

The danger is, again, it's just not a well regulated substance.

因此，坦白说，我正在与英国一家公司合作，并与伦敦国王学院及其精神病学研究所共同研发一种CBD的纯净类似物。

So I am actually, just full disclosure, I'm working with a company in The United Kingdom in collaboration with King's College and the Institute of Psychiatry there to see if we can create an analog, a clean analog of CBD.

但我认为，它潜在的好处不仅限于睡眠，还可能对焦虑等多种精神健康状况有益。

But I think the potential upside of it, not just for sleep, but for a number of different psychiatric conditions like anxiety could be beneficial.

所以，目前这就是关于THC和CBD的要点。

So I would say that that's right now the sort of the skinny on THC and CBD.

好的，为了确认我是否正确掌握了睡眠卫生的基本要素，我知道规律性是最重要的。

Okay, so just to make sure that I have the basic list of sleep hygiene factors correct, I have regularity is king.

对。

Yep.

光照与黑暗，意思是应该在早晨和白天尽量优化光照暴露，而在晚上则让环境变暗。

Light and dark, meaning that one should optimize or at least seek to optimize their exposure to light in the morning and throughout the day and then in the evening to make things dim and dark.

是的。

Yes.

温度。

Temperature.

你这里提到一点，虽然不是口号，但那是什么？

And there you have a little, it's not a mantra, but what is it?

这是为了入睡而升温再降温，然后保持凉爽，像方兹一样保持冷静以维持睡眠，再升温以醒来。

It's a warm up to cool down to fall asleep, and then it's stay cool, like Fonzie, stay cool to stay asleep, and then warm up to wake up.

对。

Yep.

我想我们稍后还会回到这个话题。

And we will come on to that, I think, in a little while again.

然后是‘走一走’，如果我理解正确的话，当你试图入睡或重新入睡时，如果超过二十到二十五分钟还睡不着，你就应该起床，到家里其他地方去做点别的事。

Then there's walk it out, which is, if I understand correctly, if you're trying to fall asleep or fall back asleep, it's taking you longer than about twenty, twenty five minutes, you should just get out of bed and go elsewhere in the house, do something else.

甚至可以在家里换个地方躺下，比如不同的表面，是的。

Maybe even lie down on a different surface in the house Yeah.

看看在那里能不能睡着。

To try and see if you can sleep there.

但不要待在床上。

But don't stay in bed.

不要让清醒状态和你的床产生关联，因为这可能导致后续夜晚出现睡眠问题。

Don't create a paired association of wakefulness and your bed, because that can lead to problems in subsequent nights.

是的，我只想说，如果可以的话，尽量克制一下。

Yeah, and I would only say that try to resist if you can.

如果你真的希望卧室成为你持续入睡的地方，尽量不要开始在其他地方持续睡觉，因为那样一来，你突然就会把那个地方和优质睡眠联系起来，从而解开了我们正试图重新建立的概念，即要明白你的卧室才是睡觉的地方。

If you really want your bedroom to be the place where you now become consistently asleep, try not to start sleeping in some other location consistently, because then all of a sudden you bond that with good sleep and you unbuckle this notion that we're trying to relearn, which is know your bedroom is the place of sleep.

所以去其他地方没问题，尽量保持清醒，强迫自己保持清醒，直到你实在困得不行了，然后再回到床上。

So it's fine to go elsewhere, try to stay awake and force yourself to stay awake until you are absolutely sleepy, then go back to bed.

好的，然后我们讨论了酒精、食物、咖啡因，以及THC/CBD，也就是大麻。

Okay, and then we discussed alcohol, food, caffeine, and THCCBD, AKA cannabis.

关于酒精，很明显，如果你打算喝一点，最好是一点都不喝。

And with respect to alcohol, it's clear that none is best if you're going to have some.

你不希望白天太早喝酒，但也不希望喝太多或太接近就寝时间，因为这会干扰快速眼动睡眠。

You don't want to drink too early in the day, but you don't want to drink too much or too close to bedtime because it can disrupt rapid eye movement sleep.

食物方面，似乎需要在最后一餐和就寝时间之间留出一些缓冲，大概两到三小时，但对有些人来说可能更像是九十分钟。

Food seems that creating some sort of buffer between your last bite of food and your to bedtime by anyway, somewhere between maybe two, three hours, but for some people it'll be more like ninety minutes.

当然，这也会取决于餐食的分量等因素。

And of course, that's going to depend on the size of the meal, etcetera.

但吃一顿大餐后立刻上床睡觉，恐怕不是一个好主意。

But eating a big meal and then going straight to bed, probably not a good idea.

咖啡因的半衰期很长。

Caffeine has this long half life.

所以如果你要摄入，像我一样，那就尽早摄入，小心下午的咖啡因。

So if you're going to indulge, which I do, do so early in the day, beware the afternoon caffeine.

是的。

Yeah.

我要称之为休伯曼减量法，这并不是什么深奥的理论，只是简单的咖啡因减量法。

Do the Huberman taper is what I'm gonna call it right now, which is not an interpretive dense, it's simply the caffeine tape.

而THC和CBD对你的睡眠结构没有任何好处。

And then THC CBD does nothing good for your sleep architecture.

虽然有些人觉得它对睡眠有帮助，因为它让他们更容易入睡，但他们不知道的是，它在不知不觉中破坏了睡眠各个阶段的质量和结构，对人们并无益处。

Although some people have the impression that it is good for their sleep because it makes it easier for them to fall asleep, but what they're unaware of is that it is disrupting the quality and architecture of the different stages of sleep in ways that are not serving people well.

THC似乎确实如此，而我认为CBD是有潜力的，研究必须更加努力，包括我自己的研究。

That seems to be the case for THC, and I think CBD, you know, has promise, and research must try harder, including my own.

你非常友善地强调，你并不是在告诉人们该做什么，而是让他们了解自己正在做什么，以便他们可以根据自己的意愿做出改变。

And you very kindly emphasize that you're not telling people what to do, they just should know what they're doing, so that they can make changes if they so choose.

没错。

That's right.

我总是会说，我没有接受过医学博士的训练。

I would always say that I'm not trained to be a medical doctor.

我提供的任何建议都只是基于科学的描述性建议。

Any advice that I give is simply scientifically descriptive advice.

它既不是医学上的处方建议，也不是生活方式上的强制性建议。

It's not medically prescriptive, nor lifestyle prescriptive advice.

我正在微笑，因为我一直说，我是一名科学家，而不是医生。

I'm smiling because what I always say is I'm a scientist, not a physician.

所以我从不开处方，但我却会阐述很多观点。

So I don't prescribe anything, but I profess lots of things.

而我那位身为音乐家的好朋友蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗说，我不是警察。

Whereas my good friend who's a musician, Tim Armstrong said, I'm not a cop.

是的。

That's right.

所以做你想做的。

So do what you want.

好的。

Okay.

这是一份绝佳的清单，可以引导我们进入非传统且更先进的助眠工具。

What a wonderful list to leap off into the unconventional and more advanced tools for sleep enhancement.

那我们就开始吧。

So let's go there.

所以

So

我认为很多人可能听说过一些常规方法，但非传统的呢？

I think many people may have heard of some of the conventional, but what about the unconventional?

我可能会提出五到六个。

I would probably offer five or six.

第一个建议是，如果你正在经历睡眠困难，并且昨晚睡得很差，那么首要建议是什么都不做。

The first one I would say is that if you are struggling with sleep and you have had a bad night of sleep, the first recommendation is do nothing.

我的意思是，如果你整晚没睡好，清醒了三个小时，就不要在第二天早上多睡一会儿。

And what I mean by that is if you've had a bad night of sleep, you're awake for three hours, do not sleep in any later into the morning.

也不要提前上床睡觉。

Do not go to bed any earlier.

不要增加咖啡因摄入量来试图弥补，也不要白天小睡。

Do not increase your caffeine intake to try to offset it and do not nap during the day.

我为什么要告诉你这些？

Why am I telling you those things?

如果你第二天早上醒得更晚，我们之前提到的腺苷时钟——也就是我们醒来后逐渐累积的困倦感——就会在一天中更晚的时候才开始。

If you wake up later that following morning, your adenosine clock that we spoke about, this building up of sleepiness that happens when we wake up, is going to start later in the day.

因此，到了下一个晚上你通常该入睡的时间，你就不会感到那么困了。

So when it comes time for you to fall asleep at what would then be the next night at your normal time, you're not going to feel as sleepy.

为什么？

Why?

因为你醒得更晚了，这又让你陷入了失败的循环。

Because you woke up that much later and you're setting yourself up for failure again.

同样，也不要提前上床睡觉。

Equally, don't go to bed any earlier.

如果你已经习惯了，你的大脑和生物钟也习惯了在某个固定时间睡觉，而且希望你一直保持规律，那么提前两三个小时上床可能会带来风险——虽然不是必然，但确实有这种风险：你上床后会想，虽然昨晚睡得不好，但我还是没法马上睡着。

If you have become accustomed and your brain has and your circadian clock has become accustomed to going to bed at a certain time and hopefully you're doing it regularly, then getting into bed two or three hours early has the danger, it's not a certainty, but a danger of you then getting into bed and thinking, well, I know I had a bad night of sleep last night, but I still can't fall asleep straight away.

于是，你又在床头白白多花了九十分钟，因为你提前了九十分钟上床，以为这样能补偿一下。

So now you're spending another ninety minutes in bed at the beginning because you've gone to bed ninety minutes earlier thinking it's a good idea to compensate.

也不要这样做。

Don't do that either.

即使你觉得累了，也要坚持一下。

Hold out even if you do feel tired.

我的建议是，在经历了一个糟糕的夜晚后，尽可能长时间地坚持，直到接近你正常的就寝时间再睡觉，这样你才能获得最大的成功几率。

My recommendation would be after that bad night of sleep, hold out for as long as you can, as close to your natural bedtime as possible, then go to sleep and you'll give yourself highest chance of success.

不要过量摄入咖啡因。

Don't over caffeinate.

这是显而易见的。

That's the obvious one.

遵循出色的休伯曼减量法。

Follow the beautiful Huberman taper.

然后显然尽量不要通过小睡来补偿。

And then obviously try not to compensate with a nap.

为什么？

Why?

因为那个小睡，就像我们睡觉时发生的那样，会消除一部分困倦感，也就是腺苷，于是你再次上床时，困倦程度没有自然状态下那么高。

Because that nap, as happens when we sleep, is going to remove some of that sleepiness, that adenosine, and once again, you get into bed and you're not as sleepy as you would naturally be.

所以你又经历了一个糟糕的夜晚，因为你难以入睡，或者你醒来后无法再入睡，因为你之前的小睡减轻了身体的睡眠压力。

So you again go through a bad night because you're struggling to sleep, or you wake up and you can't get back because you've got less weight of sleepiness on your shoulders due to the nap that happened earlier.

我知道这很难，但我会说，当闹钟在糟糕的夜晚后响起时，你心里只想：我真不想起床。

So I know it's hard, but I would say when the alarm goes off after a bad night, you just think, I do not want to get up.

昨晚实在太难熬了。

It's been such a rough night.

我知道这能带来短期收益，但相信我，从长远来看却是损失，因为你将陷入这种恶性循环。

I know it's a short term gain, but trust me, it's a long term loss because you're going to then just get into this vicious cycle.

所以这是第一个非传统的建议。

So that's the first unconventional tip.

我能打断你一下吗？

Can I just pause you for a second?

我有点震惊，因为我之前根本不知道这些。

I'm a little wide eyed over here because I did not know any of that.

通常，如果我睡得不好，我会尽一切努力补回睡眠。

Typically, if I get a poor night's sleep, I'll do whatever I can to recover that sleep.

小睡一会儿，或者调整第二天晚上的睡觉时间。

Take a nap, adjust my to bedtime the next evening.

所以我希望每个人都能认真听马特刚才说的话。

So I hope everyone is paying careful attention to what Matt just said.

我的意思是，这是一份非常重要的建议清单，因为很多人最常见的问题就是睡不好觉。

I mean, that's a important list because I think one of the very common things is for people to just not get a great night's sleep.

我认为大多数人会想，好吧，我多喝点咖啡因。

And I think most people think, okay, I'll drink a little more caffeine.

我会今晚早点睡觉，或者下午小睡一会儿，诸如此类的做法。

I will go to bed a little earlier tonight, you know, maybe catch a nap in the afternoon, this kind of thing.

我以前也会这么想，甚至可能还会建议这样做。

And I would have thought that too, and maybe even suggested that.

如果你听过第一集，当时我以末日般的方式列举了睡眠不足可能带来的各种后果，你可能会以为那就是我会推荐的做法。

And if you listen to the first episode, and where we, you know, I list in a doomsday manner the things that can happen by way of a short night, you would think that that's what I would then recommend.

但是一位出色的睡眠临床专家迈克尔·佩利斯深深影响了我，他描述了这些现象及其背后的确切原因。

But it was really imprinted on me by a wonderful sleep clinician, Michael Perlis, who sort of described some of these features and exactly the reasons sort of underlying them.

我想我只是试图把这些内容提炼成一个易于理解的模式。

I think I've just tried to bake that out into a formula that makes sense.

这 again，重点不在于规则本身。

Again, it's not about the rule.

而在于解释清楚，因为当你解释时，一开始听起来会显得矛盾且反直觉。

It's about explaining it because when you explain it, at first it sounds contradictory and paradoxical.

当你理解它时，它听起来应该是合乎逻辑且可操作的。

When you understand it, it hopefully sounds logical and actionable.

所以，这将是第一个建议。

So that would be the first suggestion.

我可以打断一下吗？抱歉打断了。

Could I just, Yeah, sorry to interrupt please.

我的观众讨厌我打断，但我这是替他们做的，因为我很喜欢这样。

My audience hates when I interrupt, but I'm doing it on their behalf because I love it.

因为我觉得，至少你回应中的某些内容是有价值的。

Because because I I like to think that there's some value in some of, at least, what you say in response.

我看到一篇来自兰达·帕特里克博士的精彩帖子，我们俩都认识并钦佩她在公众教育和公共卫生教育方面的工作。

I saw a really terrific post from doctor Rhonda Patrick, who we both know and admire for her public education work, public health education work.

她描述了一项研究，该研究发现，如果人们睡眠略微不足（比如少睡几个小时），一些与部分睡眠不足乃至完全睡眠不足相关的早晨血糖调节紊乱。

And she described a study whereby if people are, I think it was slightly sleep deprived, maybe by a few hours, that some of the disruption to morning blood glucose regulation that is known to accompany partial sleep deprivation and certainly complete sleep deprivation.

但在这种情况下，早晨进行锻炼仍可以抵消睡眠不足的影响。

But in this case, sleep deprivation could be offset by still exercising in the morning.

没错。

That's right.

说实话，如果我睡得不好，我通常会想，也许今天就不锻炼了。

Which frankly, I have to say if I haven't slept that well, then, know, normally I'm like, maybe today's the day I don't exercise.

但听了这些信息后，我特意还是会锻炼，有时强度会稍微降低一点。

But now having heard that information, I make it a point to still exercise, sometimes with a little bit less intensity.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我不想下午完全精疲力尽，然后在下午4点左右睡着，那样会严重打乱我的作息。

Because I don't want to be completely exhausted in the afternoon and go to sleep at, you know, 4PM or something really disrupt my schedule.

但我觉得这很有趣，因为它相当于对睡眠不足引起的血糖紊乱提供了一种部分性预防。

But I thought that was really interesting because it's a sort of partial inoculation of blood glucose disruption caused by sleep deprivation.

我很高兴你提到这个。

I'm so glad you brought it up.

这是一项很棒的研究，Rhonda，而且我觉得你几年前在节目中就曾试图讨论过它。我喜欢它，因为它提供了一些切实可行的希望和策略。

It's a fantastic study, Rhonda, and I think you even tried to discuss it some years ago on a show, but I like it because it does offer some degree of actionable hope and a strategy.

血糖，绝对关键。

Blood sugar, absolutely critical.

它对睡眠非常敏感。

It is very sensitive to sleep.

当你睡眠不足时，血糖会走向不良的方向。

When you don't get enough, it goes in bad directions.

你巧妙地使用了一个非常具体的词，那就是‘部分’。

You used a very specific word cleverly so, and that word was partially.

当你第一次听到或读到这项研究时，兰达从未向你暗示过这一点，我也不是在说，你会认为：如果它能抵消血糖问题，而城市方面说运动可以弥补睡眠不足，你就会把这一项益处与这样的想法混为一谈：但也许它并不能真正弥补免疫功能、心血管疾病风险、荷尔蒙健康、学习与记忆、情绪与大脑健康等方面的缺失。

At first you hear or read that study, and Rhonda was never suggesting this to you, I'm not saying that, you think, well, if it offsets blood sugar and the city was saying exercise can nullify a lack of sleep, you conflate that single outcome benefit with the idea that, well, but maybe it doesn't actually reap or doesn't compensate for the deficits in immune function or cardiovascular disease concerns or my hormonal health or my learning and memory or my emotional and brain health.

也许能，但也许不能。

Maybe it does, but maybe it doesn't.

所以我认为，每当听到这样的研究时，都应该提醒人们：很自然地会以为，哦，这意味着它能影响我身体和大脑的方方面面。

So I think I would always just caution people to say when you hear a study like that, it's very natural to think, oh, that must mean that it translates to everything else in my body and everything else in my brain.

也许会，但也可能不会。

It may, but it also may not be.

太好了。

Terrific.

所以如果你睡眠质量不好，尽量还是保持一些运动，但要意识到，尤其是在冬季，如果你在健身房或跑步时运动过量，可能会略微削弱免疫力。

So if you don't sleep that well, do your best to still get some exercise, just be mindful of the fact that, you know, in the winter months, especially that might, if you go too hard in the gym or on a run, you might be a little bit immune compromised.

要意识到，当你睡眠不足时，身体会更脆弱，但运动可以帮助你向好的方向调整。

Just be mindful of the fact that you're a more vulnerable being when you're sleep deprived and that, but that exercise can help adjust things in the right direction.

如果运动安排在早上，大概不会影响正常的入睡时间。

And if it's early in the day, presumably that's not going to disrupt the proper bedtime.

如果运动安排在晚上，只要你不依赖咖啡因来完成运动，或者你习惯晚上运动，那就没问题。

And if it's later in the day, I suppose as long as you don't need caffeine in order to do that exercise, and or if you're familiar with exercising later in the day, fine.

我知道，如果我运动的话，我可不是那种认为晚上七点去跑步，洗个澡就能马上睡觉的人。

I you know, I find if I exercise, I I'm not one of these people thinking go for a run at, you know, 07:00 at night and then just shower and go sleep.

我是早晨型的人。

Morning type.

因为我是个早晨型的人。

Because I'm a morning type.