嘉宾系列 | 保罗·康蒂博士：如何理解与评估你的心理健康

这些因素决定了我们的生活将走向何方，对吧？

These are the factors that determine, like, where do our lives go?

对吧？

Right?

因为除此之外，想象一下，围绕这一切的性格结构所形成的‘自我’，就是这样生长出来的，对吧？

Because on top of all of this, imagine that the nest of the character structure around all of this grows from it the self, right?

它是内在感受的产物，是我们对自己了解和不了解的部分，以及这一切所导致的所有决定的综合结果。

The product of the feelings inside, the things that we know about ourselves and don't know about ourselves, the decisions that all of it leads to.

因此，我可能会选择更加信任他人，这可能会为我带来原本不会有的机会，对吧？

So I may choose to be, for example, more trusting, and that may bring an opportunity to me that I wouldn't have otherwise had, right?

我可能会选择更加信任他人，而这也可能给我带来原本不会有的风险。

I may choose to be more trusting, and it may bring risk to me that I wouldn't otherwise have had.

因此，我们希望尽可能健康，尽可能了解自己和周围的世界，这样我们才能拥有一个健康的性格结构，通过它以审慎的态度与周围世界互动，对吧？

So we want to be as healthy as we can, as knowledgeable of ourselves and the world around us, so that it's safe for us to have a healthy character structure through which we can engage in the world around us with a sense of prudence, right?

承担合理的风险，对吧？

Taking reasonable risks, right?

不能太少，以免我们封闭自己，最终陷入绝望；也不能太多，以免可怕的事情发生，让我们变得恐惧。

Not too little so that we shut ourselves down and maybe end up despairing, Not so much that scary things can happen to us and we end up fearful.

对吧？

Right?

但关键是，如果我们足够了解自己，性格结构就是健康的，对吧？

But the idea that if we know ourselves well, the character structure is healthy, right?

因为它建立在健康自我和自我功能的基础之上。

Because it's built upon a structure of self and a function of self that are healthy.

从中会产生力量感，还有力量感与谦逊，它们会引导我们走向能动性与感恩。

And out of it is coming empowerment, right, and empowerment and humility, right, that then lead us to agency and gratitude.

对吧？

Right?

这里的意思是，这种性格结构是我们构建的，它能以对我们自身和周围世界都有益的方式与世界互动，使我们能够在内在和外在都达到更大的和谐。

The idea here is that this is the character structure that we create that can then interface with the world in a way that's good for us and good for the world around us that leads us to be able to live in much more harmony inside of ourselves and outside of ourselves.

所以，如果我理解正确的话，那些从我们称之为潜意识的冰山这部分发展出来的防御机制，会以适应性或非适应性的方式保护我们的意识自我。

So if I understand correctly, defense mechanisms that grow up out of this portion of the iceberg that we're calling the unconscious mind, they protect our conscious self in ways that can be adaptive or that can be maladaptive.

换句话说，防御机制可以是健康的，也可以是不健康的。

In other words, defenses can be healthy or they can be unhealthy.

是的。

Yes.

也许几分钟后我们可以探讨一下，健康的防御和不健康的防御分别是什么样子。

And perhaps in few minutes we can get into what a healthy versus an unhealthy defense looks like.

但你描述的性格结构，在我听来就像一系列情境性的倾向。

But the way you described character structure sounds to me like an array of contextual dispositions.

我不想使用不必要的复杂语言，但我觉得这就像一堆倾向。

I don't want to add unnecessarily complex language, but it sounds to me like a bunch of dispositions.

比如，当我走进一个我认识所有人的办公室，看到熟悉的面孔时，如果我信任这些人，就没有必要保持警惕。

Like if I'm walking into the office where I know everybody and I see familiar faces, there's no reason for me to be on guard if I trust those people.

但当我晚上走在一条不熟悉的街道上，开始觉得这个街区可能不太安全时，保持相对高度的警觉就是合理的。

But if I'm walking down a street at night that I'm not familiar with and I'm starting to get the sense that this neighborhood might not be the best, it makes sense for me to be on relatively high alert.

因此，不同的情况会引发不同的倾向。

So different dispositions depending on different conditions.

我忍不住要提到我的斗牛犬科斯特洛，它基本上只有三种状态。

I can't help but mention my bulldog Costello who had basically three dispositions.

它通常在睡觉，但说真的。

He was asleep, but in all seriousness.

第二种状态是有点无聊。

The second one was kind of bored.

这只斗牛犬常常表现出一种无聊的状态。

The bulldog faced a kind of bored.

或者如果给了它喜欢的东西，或者我们在做它喜欢的事情时，它就会感到开心。

Or if something was given to him that he liked, or if we were doing something he liked, delight.

据我观察，它基本上只有这三种状态。

He basically had three dispositions as far as I could tell.

我认为我们很多人如此喜欢狗的原因之一，是它们的行为非常可预测。

I think one of the reasons we like dogs so much, or that many of us like dogs so much, is that their decisions are very predictable.

带它去公园，它就会开心，除非那天它生病了——但这种情况很少见。

Take him to the park, he's happy, unless he happened to be ill that day, which was rare.

喂他，他就开心，对吧？

Feed him, he's happy, right?

他不会说，我不喜欢这顿饭，或者我不喜欢这个公园，或者这只贵宾犬味道不好闻之类的

There wasn't a lot of, I don't like this particular meal, or I don't like this particular park, or this bichon frisee doesn't smell so good

对我来说。

to me.

这太简单了。

It was so simple.

但人却非常复杂，对吧？

And yet people are very complex, right?

我可以看看自己，说：好吧，我的性格结构是什么？

I can look at myself and say, okay, what is my character structure?

性格结构就是一些我喜欢的东西、一些我不喜欢的东西、一些让我特别烦躁的事，还有一些让我无比愉悦的环境和人。

Character structure is certain things I like, certain things I dislike, certain things really irritate me, certain environments and people I just delight in.

那么，一个健康的性格结构，是不是指那些倾向与情境完全匹配？

Okay, so is the definition of a healthy character structure one in which the dispositions match the context perfectly?

我的意思是，我不知道我们任何人怎么可能做到那样，但这难道不是一种理想状态吗？就像我们可能达到一种理想程度的耐力那样。

I mean, I don't know how any of us could be like that, but is that sort of the ideal much in the same way that we could probably arrive at an ideal degree of stamina that one could have.

我是说，有些人能跑超级马拉松，一百英里甚至更远。

I mean, some people run ultramarathons, a 100 miles or more.

有些人想要跑马拉松。

Some people want to run a marathon.

像我这样的人并不真的渴望跑马拉松，但我希望能在需要时跑上一英里而不至于筋疲力尽或受伤。

Some people like me don't really desire to run a marathon, but I want to be able to run a mile if I need to without being completely exhausted and injured.

所以，当我们问自己关于性格结构的问题时，我们实际上是在探讨由情境驱动的倾向吗？

So, you know, when we ask ourselves about character structure, are we asking ourselves about context driven dispositions?

那么，我们该如何开始为自己评估这一点呢？

And you know, how do we start to evaluate that for ourselves?

对。

Right.

我认为，正因为我们更复杂，所以与其说是倾向，不如说是倾向性，对吧？

I think because we're more complicated, I think it's not dispositions as much as it's predispositions, right?

所以，以你举的例子来说，你有一种特定的倾向，要么信任，要么警惕，对吧？

So in the example that you gave, right, you have a certain predisposition to be either trusting or wary, right?

而这种倾向对你来说是健康的，对吧？

And that's healthy in you, right?

那么，当你进入一个没有理由感到不信任、焦虑或脆弱的环境时，对吧？

So when you come into a setting where there's not a good reason to feel mistrustful, to feel anxious, to feel vulnerable, right?

那你就会感到放松，对吧？

Then you feel at ease, right?

所以当你走进工作环境，那里有你认识的人，有你喜欢的人，一切都很好，对吧？

So you walk into the work setting, there are people you know, there are people you like, everything is okay, right?

当情境变化时，你的倾向也会不同，对吧？

You have a different predisposition when the context is different, right?

所以如果情境带来了不安全感，你就会相应地做出缺乏安全感的反应，对吧？

So if the context could bring a lack of safety, then you respond accordingly with the lack of safety, right?

但这些倾向确实有可能处于不健康的状态，对吧？

But it's possible, certainly those predispositions can be in unhealthy places, right?

所以，例如，你可能以某种方式遭受过创伤，或者由于过去的一些经历，你以某种方式看待世界，而这些经历你可能并不认为是创伤，但你内心可能有一种不信任的倾向。

So, for example, you might have been traumatized in a certain way, or you might approach the world in a certain way because of prior experience that you may not register as trauma, but it may be that within you is a predisposition to be mistrustful.

所以，即使你走进一个你认识的人的房间，这些人从未对你造成过任何伤害，你仍然可能感到不安全。

So you could walk into a room of people that you know, of people who've never met you any harm and still feel unsafe.

对吧？

Right?

这种情况在创伤后最常发生，但也有其他方式让人形成这种不健康的倾向。

Now, this happens most often after trauma, but there are other ways people can get to that where the predisposition isn't so healthy.

相反的情况也同样成立。

The converse is true, too.

对吧？

Right?

有些人会过度依赖所谓的全能防御机制，以至于当危险临近时，他们却无法察觉。

There are people who can have too much of what's called an omnipotence defense, and then they don't recognize danger when danger is around them.

所以，这个概念——围绕防御结构构建的个性结构，以及位于冰山表面的意识心智，与潜藏在水下的潜意识之间的关系——正是这个‘巢’通过一系列倾向与外界互动。

So the idea, the character structure, that nest, right, that's built around the defensive structure and the conscious mind that's sitting on top of the part of the iceberg, the unconscious mind underwater, right, it's that nest that is interfacing with the world through a whole set of predispositions.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商之一AG1。

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors AG1.

AG1是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮品，能够满足您所有的基础营养需求。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that meets all of your foundational nutrition needs.

我从2012年就开始服用AG1了，所以很高兴他们能赞助这个播客。

I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

我开始服用AG1并且至今仍保持每天一到两次服用的原因是，这是确保我饮食中获得所需全部维生素、矿物质、益生菌和纤维的最简单方式。

The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take AG1 once or generally twice per day is that it's the easiest way for me to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and fiber that I need in my diet.

当然，从天然食物中获取适当营养至关重要，但包括我在内的大多数人都发现每天很难摄入足够的水果和蔬菜份量，尤其难以获取足够的益生元和益生菌来确保肠道健康。

Now, of course it's essential to get proper nutrition from whole foods, but most people including myself find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day, and especially to get enough prebiotics and probiotics to ensure gut health.

如你所知，你的肠道内含有数万亿微生物群落，即所谓的肠道微生物组，它们与你身体的其他器官建立关键连接，不仅增强大脑健康，还支持免疫系统及其他与身心健康相关的方面。

As you may know, your gut contains trillions of little microbiota, the so called gut microbiome, which establishes critical connections with other organs of your body to enhance brain health, as well as to support your immune system and other aspects that relate to mental and physical health.

我收到的最常见的问题之一是，如果只能选择一种补充剂，那会是哪一种？

One of the most common questions I get is if you were to take just one supplement, which supplement would that be?

我的答案始终是AG1，因为通过服用AG1，我能确保获得所有必需的维生素、矿物质和益生菌，从而提升我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。

And my answer is always AG1 because by taking AG1, I'm able to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, and probiotics that I need to enhance my mental health, physical health, and performance.

如果你想尝试AG1，请前往drinkag1.com/huberman领取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.comhuberman to claim a special offer.

他们会赠送你五份免费的旅行装，以及一整年的维生素D3K2。

They'll give you five free travel packs and they'll give you a year supply of vitamin D3K2.

再次提醒，前往drinkag1.com/huberman领取这项特别优惠。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.

我想我们大多数人对评估和命名他人的性格特征都很熟悉。

I think most of us are familiar with assessing and assigning names to the character structures of others.

至少对我们大多数人来说，这种做法都没有经过专业训练或授权，对吧？

And at least for most of us, we do that with no professional training or authority, right?

我们会说，那个人真棒。

We say, That person is great.

他非常友善。

They're super nice.

那家伙真是个混蛋。

The person's a jerk.

他们就是很奇怪之类的。

They're like weird, etcetera, etcetera.

我认为很少有人熟悉评估自己的性格结构。

I think very few of us are familiar with assessing our own character structure.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

我必须假设，当有人去找精神科医生或心理学家时，某些问题会被提出，某些叙述会被讲述，从而开始向临床医生揭示其性格结构。

And I have to presume that some of what happens when somebody comes to you as a psychiatrist or to a psychologist is that certain questions are asked and certain narratives are told that start to reveal to the clinician the character structure.

从那里，可能还会揭示出一些可能的防御机制，以及这个人潜意识和意识结构的特征——这些特征本人并不自知，但对临床医生来说却显而易见。

And perhaps from there, some of the possible defense mechanisms and structure of the person's unconscious mind and conscious mind that obviously are unaware to them, but would be clear to the clinician.

就像一个人去看医生时说：‘我觉得不太舒服。’

Much in the same way that if somebody goes into the doctor and says, You know, I don't feel well.

医生就会开始通过提问来探查，或者听他们的呼吸、听他们的心跳，对吧？

They're going to start probing with questions, or they're to put, you know, listen to their breathing, listen to their heart, right?

拿出听诊器，弄清楚原因。

Get out the stethoscope and figure it out.

这些是工具，而精神科医生或心理学家则使用语言和话语来探查。

These are the probes, whereas the psychiatrist or psychologist uses words and language

进行探查。

to probe.

我们能意识到自己性格结构中的哪些方面呢？

What are the sorts of aspects of character structure that we can be aware of in ourselves?

换句话说，我们是否应该根据不同的情况，问自己拥有什么样的性格类型？

In other words, should we be asking what type of character do I have dependent on one circumstance or another?

我们是否应该问问自己有哪些防御机制？

Should we ask ourselves what sorts of defenses we have?

这或许是一个很好的机会，来探讨什么是健康的防御机制，什么是不健康的防御机制？

And maybe this would be a good opportunity to address this issue of what are healthy versus unhealthy defenses?

因为在我看来，如果我理解得没错的话，防御机制在决定我们的性格结构方面起着非常关键的作用。

Because it sounds to me, if I understand correctly, that the defense mechanisms are a very strong component in determining what our character structure is.

嗯，嗯。

Mhmm, mhmm.

对，因为防御机制是无意识的，对吧？

Right, because the defense mechanisms are unconscious, right?

围绕着防御机制、存在于意识层面并让我们与世界互动的性格结构非常非常复杂。

The character structure that nest around the defenses in the conscious mind through which we interface with the world is very, very complicated.

因此，性格结构的数量和人类的数量一样多。

So there are as many character structures as there are human beings.

所以这非常非常复杂，但有一些因素在不同人身上持续相关，并被识别出来。

So it's very, very complicated, but there are factors that are consistently relevant across people and get identified as such.

一个例子就是孤立与归属。

So one example would be isolation versus affiliation.

一个人是倾向于与他人结群，对吧？

So does a person tend to group with others, right?

还是倾向于避免结群，对吧？更倾向于以个人的方式思考、完成任务和应对生活？

Or does the person tend to avoid grouping, right, and go about thoughts, tasks, approaches to life in a more singular manner, right?

所以这只是一个方面。

So it's just one element.

我在对此做出价值判断，因为这个谱系的两端都可能是好的或坏的。

I'm making value judgment about it, because it can be good or bad on either end of the spectrum.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们只是在说，有哪些因素呢？

So we're just saying, what are the factors?

我是更倾向于归属他人，还是倾向于孤立自己、更独立行事？

So am I more affiliative, or do I tend to isolate and be more singular?

这只是一个例子。

That's just one example.

对吧？

Right?

另一个例子可能是，比如，幽默的使用。

Another example could be things like, for example, use of humor.

对吗？

Right?

一个人是否使用幽默，以及以何种方式使用？

Does a person use humor and in what way?

对吧？

Right?

一个人是否在负面情境中使用幽默来转移不适感？

Does a person use humor to deflect discomfort in negative situations?

一个人使用幽默是为了贬低他人还是贬低自己？

Does a person use humor in order to belittle others or to belittle themselves?

或者一个人根本不使用幽默？

Or does a person not use humor?

对吧？

Right?

所以这些性格结构的方面，多年来已经进行了大量研究，以确定在我们用来与周围世界互动的这个事物中，什么是最显著的，而我们的自我正是从中成长起来的。

So these aspects of character structure, and so much research has been done on this over the years to determine what is most salient, right, in this thing that we use in order to interface with the world around us, out of which grows our self.

这很有道理，也让我想稍微修正一下我之前提出的问题。我之前说，关于身体健康检查，我们会测量血压、呼吸等，甚至做血液检测，查看一些生物标志物。

That makes good sense, and it makes me want to revise a little bit what I asked about before, which is I said that when it comes to an exam of physical health, measure blood pressure, measure breathing, etcetera, maybe even a blood test, look at some biomarkers.

但你所描述的更类似于医生面对一位身体不适或感觉不佳的患者时，会说：‘跟我讲讲你的一天吧。’

But what you're describing is a little bit more analogous to the physician addressing a patient who's having some physical discomfort or malaise and saying, Tell me about your day.

你早上起床后会做些什么？

What do you do when you get up in the morning?

如果一个人回答说：‘我喝四分之一品脱的伏特加’，这和‘我出去晒太阳、喝一杯水，再喝杯咖啡’，显然是完全不同的答案，对吧？

If the person says, Well, drink a quarter pint of vodka, it's a very different answer than, I go outside and get sunlight in my eyes, drink a glass of water and maybe have a cup of coffee, right?

对。

Right.

或者如果有人说：‘我喝六杯浓缩咖啡。’

Or if somebody says, have six espresso.

如果我理解正确的话，一个人的性格结构更多是通过探索其在‘隔离’与‘参与’状态中的行为模式来揭示的，而不是仅仅依赖某一项具体的生物标志物检测。

If I understand correctly, the character structure is better revealed by exploring the action states that somebody Isolation engages versus engagement, as opposed to a read of one specific biomarker.

是的。

Yes.

这就是性格结构的生动体现，对吧？

It's character structure brought to life, right?

是的。

Yes.

我立刻想到电影和书籍中，我们通过观察一个人如何以极具张力的方式与他人互动，从而深入了解他们。

Immediately, I'm thinking about movies and books where we learn so much about somebody through observing the way that they interact with people in very potent ways.

比如，我能想到无数部电影，在第一场戏里，你就因为某人如何应对交通中被插队的行为，而对这个人有了大量了解。

So for instance, I can think of countless movies where you learn a ton about somebody in the first scene, simply because of the way they react to somebody who cuts them off in traffic.

他们直接爆发了。

They just explode.

好吧，从那时起，我们就认为这个人容易冲动，除非后续有大量情节来修正这一印象。

Okay, well then we think of that person as reactive from that point on, unless there's a significant amount of material to revise that.

但关键在于他们是否暴怒、骂人等行为，而不是他们只是一笑置之、自嘲，或者把责任归咎于自己车里的其他人之类的情况。

But it's in the action of getting explosive and cursing, etcetera, as opposed to if they just kind of laugh it off or laugh at themselves or blame someone within their own vehicle or something like that.

所以，当一个人说‘我感觉不舒服’时，像您这样的临床医生会留意这些类型的反应吗？

So are those the sorts of things that a clinician like yourself is listening for when somebody says, know, I don't feel well.

你会说：‘那你最近发生了什么事？’

And you say, Well, tell me about what's going on lately.

然后他们开始描述自己生活中的情况。

And they start describing what's going on in their life.

你会留意那些防御机制开始显现的时刻吗？通过这些人所采取的行动，他们的性格结构是否会显露出来？

And are you listening for those places where the defense mechanisms start to reveal themselves, the character structure starts to reveal itself through these action steps that the person seems to be taking?

是的

Yeah,

对

yeah.

我的意思是，也许可以从潜在可能性和倾向性的角度来理解性格结构，对吧？

I mean, maybe one way of looking at character structure is that it's potentialities and predispositions, right?

有很多潜在的东西，它们会与事件产生互动，比如一个人被困在交通堵塞中，他会如何反应？

That there's so much that's latent that then interfaces with events, like a person stuck in traffic, how does that person respond?

如果这个人没有被困在交通里，就不会有这种反应，对吧？

If that person weren't stuck in traffic, there wouldn't be a response to it, right?

所以他们的潜在可能性和倾向性，会通过我们在生活中不断践行这些特质而得以展现。

So their potentialities, their predispositions, and then we live through enacting them as we're moving then through life.

而试图去理解这些，可以借用身体健康这个类比，对吧？

And the attempts to understand, so using the physical health parallel, right?

如果你来找我，说：我感觉不舒服，对吧？

If you came in and you said, I don't feel well, right?

我们可能会做很多检查，对吧？

We might run a lot of tests, right?

我们可能会做核磁共振、CT扫描，甚至用听诊器听你体内的情况。

We might get an MRI or a CAT scan or even putting the stethoscope and listening to what's inside of you.

这些都可以被称为无意识的东西。

Those, we could say, are unconscious things.

比如，你并不知道影像会显示什么，血液检测结果如何，或者当别人把听诊器放在你身上时，你的肺部听起来是什么样。

Like, you know, you're not aware of what the imaging may show or the blood test may show or how your lungs may sound when someone puts a stethoscope on them.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果一个临床医生想要理解和帮助某人，你就需要去寻找这些方面。

So so a clinician, if you're trying to understand and help someone, then you do want to look for those things.

对吧？

Right?

你要寻找那些潜藏在表面之下的东西，但这些可能非常重要。

You want to look for the things that are underneath the surface, but that but that can be very, very important.

对吧？

Right?

你也要关注所有表层的东西。

You also wanna look at everything that's on the surface.

对吧？

Right?

所以，当你与一个人互动时，你是在与整个自我互动。

So if you're if you're engaging with someone, you're engaging with the self.

对吧？

Right?

这个自我是源于性格结构的巢穴。

The self that grows out of the character structure nest.

对吧？

Right?

所以通过与自我互动，并尽最大努力理解自我，你就能了解到其背后的东西。

So by engaging with and and doing one's best to understand the self, then you learn about what is underneath of it.

对吧？

Right?

因此，我可能会了解到，你在某些情境下会如何反应？

So I may then learn, well, how do you respond in certain situations?

对吧？

Right?

就像我可以问你问题，或者，你什么时候感觉不舒服？

Just like I could ask you questions or, well, when do you not feel well?

或者对吧？

Or Right?

所以你向一个人提问，是因为希望通过这种方式理解性格结构的各个要素。

So you're asking a person questions because the idea is to understand elements of the character structure.

那么在特定情境下，你是如何反应的？

So how do you respond in certain situations?

你内心正在发生什么？

What's going on inside of you?

对吧？

Right?

你对自己有哪些了解，又有哪些不了解的地方？

What do you understand about yourself and what do you not understand about yourself?

对吧？

Right?

你如何在周围的世界中展现自己？

How do you bring yourself to bear in the world around you?

所以这里也在发生一个类似的过程。

So there's a similar process going on.

但在这里，我们试图理解自我，而对自我的理解可以帮助我们洞察自我背后的组成部分，因为正是这些部分决定了我们如何改善现状。

But here, we're trying to understand the self, and the understanding of the self can help us understand the components underneath of the self because that's where we're going to go to make things better.

对吧？

Right?

理想情况下，自我认知不应该充满神秘感，至少不应该像身体健康那样充满未知。

The idea is there shouldn't have to be mystery or certainly not mystery any more than there is in physical health.

我的意思是，很少有人来看病时真的感觉不舒服，却没有任何该做的检查都做了。

I mean, you know, rarely someone comes in and they're really not feeling well And and a whole set of everything that should be done is done.

对吧？

Right?

化验、体格检查、病史、影像学检查。

Labs, physical examination, history, imaging.

对吧？

Right?

但你还是完全不明白原因。

And and you still just don't know.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，这种情况偶尔会发生，但非常罕见。

I mean, sometimes that can happen, but it's very rare.

同样的道理也适用于自我：如果我们正在审视自我，寻找构成自我的那些组成部分，那么我们就应该足够了解这些组成部分，从而回到自我的根源进行改变，让自我变得更好，对吧？

And the same should apply here that if we're examining a self, right, and we're looking for the components out of which that self comes, right, then we should be able to understand well enough to go back to the components of self and to make change so that the self is in a better place, right?

而这样的自我就能获得力量，感受到谦逊，进而以我们所追求的利他主义和感恩之心面对生活。

And that self can then be empowered, can feel humility, right, can then come at life through the altruism and gratitude that we seek.

因为，再次强调，你若能给我展示一个以利他主义和感恩之心面对生活却仍不快乐的人，那我将看到一件我从未见过、完全崭新的事物。

Because, again, you show me someone who's coming at life through altruism and gratitude and is not happy with their life, and you'll be showing me something I've never seen before, something entirely new.

所以，如果我们想达到这个目标，我们就需要知道如何实现它。

So if we want to get there, we want to know how to get there.

确实存在一些方法，就像在身体健康领域一样，这些方法并不神秘，我们可以借助它们来增进理解并实现改变。

And there are ways, as there should be, that parallel physical health that aren't mysterious that we can come at to make understanding and change.

我在思考焦虑在这整个过程中的作用。

I'm wondering about the role of anxiety in all of this.

我问焦虑的问题，是因为你提到性格结构在很大程度上是由一系列先天倾向和潜能决定的。

The reason I ask about anxiety is that you said that so much of character structure is determined by a set of predispositions and potentialities.

而且

And

之前我们讨论过，在特定环境中要么害怕要么不害怕的例子，比如是否觉得自己能走进教室学习，或者是否过于在意别人对我们的看法，或者两者兼有，对吧？

earlier we were talking about example of either being afraid or unafraid in particular environments, or feeling like we can walk into a classroom and learn, or whether or not we're overly concerned about what people think about us or both, right?

这可能是混合的。

It could be a mix.

我们是否能安全且适应性地拥抱新环境，并从中成长，而不是被它们压倒，甚至遭受心理、生理或两者兼有的伤害。

Whether or not we can embrace novel environments in safe and adaptive Whether or not we can grow from them as opposed to whether or not we can be overtaken by them or perhaps even injured harmed psychologically, physically, or both.

对我来说，焦虑是一种非常基本的功能。

Anxiety to me is a very basic function.

我从自主神经系统、兴奋程度等方面来思考它，比如能否夜间安睡、早晨醒来感觉良好而不经历恐慌发作。

I think about it in terms of the autonomic nervous system and degrees of excitability and etcetera, an ability to sleep at night, an ability to wake up feeling reasonably good, but not have a panic attack.

但对我来说，焦虑似乎是这一切中的一个关键节点。

But anxiety to me does seem like a key node in all of this.

意思是，大多数人，包括我自己，并不会整天想着自己的性格结构。

Meaning most people, including myself, I don't walk around thinking about my character structure.

我不会整天想着自己在各种假设情境中会如何表现。

I don't walk around thinking about how I'm going to behave in a bunch of hypothetical environments.

我想到的是，大多数早晨我醒来时感觉还不错，老实说，没达到我希望的感觉。

I think about the fact that most mornings I wake up and I feel pretty good, to be quite honest, not as good as I would like to feel.

然后当然不是因为出了什么问题，而是因为我天生更容易焦虑，会预测接下来会发生什么以及需要做什么。

And then certainly because anything's wrong, but because I think I'm wired to be a little bit more on the anxious side and to predict what's going to happen next and what needs to be done.

所以在真正开始某些行为之前，我的焦虑感会持续处于较高水平。

And so until I'm actually engaging in certain behaviors, that anxiety hums a little bit high for me.

早上醒来时，我的思维运转速度可能比我希望的要快一些。

The gears turn a little bit faster perhaps than I would like when I wake up in the morning.

但一旦我开始行动，这种思维运转的速度就与生活的节奏相当匹配了。

But once I engage, I feel like the speed of that gear turning matches the demands of life pretty well.

我感到自己有掌控感。

And I feel agency.

好的？

Okay?

所以，如果你不介意的话，我们能否探讨一下这种焦虑或缺乏焦虑的感觉？我认为人们在一天中的不同时间或不同情境下，对这种感觉都很熟悉。

So if you don't mind, could we explore this feeling of anxiety or lack of anxiety that I think people are pretty familiar with within themselves at different times of day and under different conditions?

因为对我来说，这似乎是一个有趣的视角，可以用来探索性格结构和防御机制这一概念。

Because to me, it seems like an interesting lens to explore this notion of character structure and defenses.

焦虑是一种健康的防御机制，还是不健康的防御机制？或者它仅仅取决于具体情况？

Is anxiety a healthy defense or an unhealthy defense, or does it simply depend on the circumstances?

嗯，我们每个人内心都有一些焦虑，对吧？

Well, we all have some degree of anxiety in us, right?

我们每个人都知道自己正在应对这个世界，而并非一切都很完美，对吧？

We all have some awareness that we're navigating the world and not everything is perfect, right?

这并不是涅槃，所以我们内心都有一些焦虑。

This is not nirvana, so there's some anxiety within us.

而这种想法是，这种焦虑能让我们对应该警惕的事情保持警觉，比如健康和安全，对吧？

And the thought is that that anxiety can keep us vigilant about the things we should be vigilant about, you know, health and safety, right?

但过多的焦虑反而会适得其反。

But that too much anxiety then becomes counterproductive.

我们可以用一种非常系统化的方式来看待这个问题，对吧？

And we can look at this in a very regimented way, right?

所以，一定程度的焦虑是有道理的，对吗？

So some anxiety makes sense, right?

它让我们保持谨慎。

It keeps us being careful.

比如说，它让你在开车出车道时保持谨慎，对吧？

It keeps you it keeps you being careful as you're pulling out of a driveway, for example, right?

所以，好的，这完全没问题。

So, okay, it be absolutely fine.

但假设你带到临床关注的事情并非完全没问题，对吧？

But let's say you bring something to clinical attention that isn't absolutely fine, right?

假设我不认识你，你走进来，我们可以用你之前举的例子：你走进工作场所，那里有一群你熟悉且喜欢的人。

Let's say I didn't know you and you come in, we have the example that you used before where you walk into work and there's a group of people that you know well and like.

对吧？

Right?

假设你告诉我，我走进去的时候感到非常焦虑。

Let's say you told me, when I walk in there, feel very anxious.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得事情不对劲。

I don't feel like things are okay.

对吧？

Right?

那么我们会进一步分析，刚才说了，这不好。

So then we would go through we said, that's not good.

对吧？

Right?

也许这影响到了你的职业生活。

Maybe it's impacting your professional life.

事情进展得不顺利。

Things are not going well.

你真的希望这种情况能改变，因为它正在以消极的方式影响你的生活。

Like, you really want this to change because it's impacting your life in a negative way.

我们说，好的。

And we say, okay.

让我们从自我结构的角度来审视这个问题。

Let's look at that from the perspective of structure of self.

对吧？

Right?

首先，无意识的，对吧？

So first, unconscious, right?

你是不是天生就更容易焦虑呢？

Is it that just genetically are you built with just higher levels of anxiety, right?

所以我们可以了解，你一直这样焦虑吗？

So we could learn, okay, have you always been anxious like this?

你从小到大一直都这样吗？

Always Is been in your life since you were a little kid, no matter what?

所以我们正在寻找所谓的生物性因素。

So we're looking for biological nature, so to speak, variables.

我们也可能关注那些深藏在你潜意识中的经历。

We might also look for things that have happened to you that are lodged in your unconscious mind.

对吗？

Right?

有没有你还没处理的创伤，那些现在潜伏在表面之下，却不断引发更多焦虑？

Is there trauma that you haven't processed, right, that now is underneath the surface but is spinning off more anxiety?

对吗？

Right?

假设你告诉我，你最近才开始感到焦虑。

Let's say you tell me, oh, it wasn't that long ago you started being anxious.

啊，是不是发生了什么事？

Ah, like, did something happen?

比如，你走进一群人当中，不知怎么绊了一跤，然后对自己感到很不舒服。

Like, did you walk into a group of people and, I don't know, you tripped and you felt bad about something.

对吧？

Right?

然后你就变得更加焦虑了。

And then then you get more anxious.

对吧？

Right?

那么，有没有一些潜藏在表面之下的事情在影响着你？

So are there things going on underneath the surface that are impacting you?

我们来深入看看，好吗？

Let's look into that, right?

因为那才是冰山最大的部分，对吧？

Because that's the biggest part of the iceberg, right?

然后，你的意识层面，我们可以开始思考：到底发生了什么？

Then your conscious mind, we could start thinking about, okay, what's going on?

你目前正在想些什么？

What are you actively thinking about?

对吧？

Right?

所以，有时候认知行为疗法就会派上用场。

So this is where sometimes cognitive behavioral techniques can come into mind.

比如，你心里想：‘天啊，我好害怕。’

Like, you thinking like, Oh, no, I'm scared.

事情不会顺利的。

It isn't going to go well.

对吧？

Right?

你是不是在想一些事情？

Like, are you having thoughts?

这些想法是不是让你更焦虑了？

Are the thoughts making you more anxious?

对吧？

Right?

你意识里在想些什么？

What's going on in your conscious mind?

对吧？

Right?

我也非常感兴趣你周围的防御机制。

I would also be very interested in the defenses around you.

比如，你是不是倾向于回避？

So, for example, do you tend to avoid, right?

这已经恶化了三个月，但你的大脑就是不肯承认，对吧？

Has this been getting worse for three months, but you just, your mind wouldn't acknowledge it, right?

等你不得不承认的时候，情况已经很糟糕了，对吧？

And by the time you have to acknowledge it, now it's really bad, right?

还是说你并不回避，而是从一开始就有这种迹象，你想趁早解决，对吧？

Or do you not avoid and like this started, just started happening and you want to nip it in the bud, right?

所以我会对你意识自我的防御机制很感兴趣，对吧。

So I would be interested in the defense mechanisms, right, that are girding your conscious self.

而且我也会对你的性格结构很感兴趣。

And I would be interested in the character structure.

那你现在做出了什么决定？

What decisions are you then making?

比如，你还是会去吗？

Like, you going anyway?

对吗？

Right?

你是否遇到困难，所以有时会选择回避？

Are you having trouble so sometimes you avoid?

你是否因此做出让你迟到的决定，从而引发问题？

Are you then making decisions that make you late and that causes problems?

当你到了那里之后，它对你有什么影响？

How does it impact you once you're there?

你与人交往的方式不同了吗？工作方式也有所改变了吗？

Are you engaging differently with people, doing your work differently?

我想了解这种性格结构，而最终，你是通过探究那层 atop 它的自我来理解这一切的。

So I want to understand the character structure, and ultimately, you understand all of this by probing the self that's riding along on top of it.

那么，这个自我的体验是怎样的？

And then what is the experience of that self?

比如，你有没有意识到，这是一个问题，我想去解决它，但同时我也知道，我擅长我所做的事。

Like, do you see that, okay, this is a problem and I want to address it, but like, look, I know that I'm good at what I do.

而且，你知道，这并不是我身上什么糟糕的事情。

And, you know, I mean, this isn't some, like, awful thing about me.

我只是需要去应对它。

I just have to deal with it.

对吧？

Right?

还是说，你自身受到了影响，开始想也许我再也做不下去了？

Or is yourself impacted where you start thinking maybe I can't do this anymore.

我不够好，或者，你知道，我们想了解自我的体验是什么。

I'm not good enough or, you know, we want to understand what's the experience of the self.

对吧？

Right?

如果我们完成了所有这些，我们怎么会无法达到一个能理解那种焦虑、并能让事情变得更好的境地呢，对吧？

And if we do all of that, how is it that we don't get to a place where we can understand that anxiety, right, and we can make things better.

所以就像在身体健康方面一样，好吧，也许我们做不到。

So just like in physical health, okay, maybe we can't.

但这属于极端个例。

But that is a dramatic outlier.

如果我们认真思考，我们会说，你本不该有这种感受，对吧？

If we bring ourselves to bear, we would say, you should not have to have this in you, right?

因为这是一种负面的东西。

Because it is something negative.

它正在给你带来不快乐。

It is making unhappiness for you.

这削弱了自主性，对吧？

It is taking away from empowerment, right?

同时也削弱了谦逊，对吧？

And it's also taking away from humility, right?

因为如果一个人在苛责自己，对自己如此苛刻，那并不是谦逊，对吧？

Because if someone's beating up on themselves, you're beating up on yourself about it, then that's not humility, right?

那反而是一种虚假的自我迫害，对吧？

Then that's being sort of falsely persecutory, right?

这并不是真正的谦逊。

This is not an honest humility to that.

它让我们远离健康。

It leads us away from health.

所以我们不希望事情变成这样，对吧？

So it's like we don't want it to be this way, right?

因为这违背了能动性和感恩，而我们需要理解它，并去追求它、改善它。

Because that is working against agency and gratitude so we can understand it and we can go after it and make it better.

我在网上最常被问到的问题之一，而且我确实收到很多问题，就是如何提升自信？

One of the most common questions I get on the internet, and I get a lot of questions, is what can be done to improve confidence?

我对此问题思考了很多，那么自信到底是什么？

And I've thought a lot about that question and what is confidence?

就我们现在讨论的语境而言，自信的一个合理定义是：我们足够信任自己的倾向和潜能，以至于面对从A到Z的各种情境时，我们能相当有信心自己会做出恰当的回应，不会在核心层面威胁到我们的自我意识，对吧？

In the context of what we're talking about now is one reasonable definition of confidence, our ability to trust our predispositions and our potentialities enough that were we to encounter scenarios A through Z, we feel pretty good that we would respond the right way in a way that wouldn't threaten our conscious mind at a core level, right?

也就是说，我们不会——我过去在实验室里常开玩笑用一句话来形容：‘把自己哭成一滩烂泥’，对吧？

You know, that we wouldn't I used to use the term and joke a lot in my laboratory with the phrase dissolve into a puddle of our own tears, right?

这是一种夸张的说法，但我认为这正是许多人内心所恐惧的。

It's kind of this hyperbolic explanation of what I think many people fear.

比如，他们被要求公开回答问题或发表演讲，或者在人际关系的关键时刻，一切都会彻底搞砸，以至于彻底摧毁他们作为一个人的存在。

Like they're gonna be called upon to answer a question publicly or give a speech, or they're going to be at a critical moment in a relationship or something, just everything is just going to go so badly wrong that it's just going to dissolve them as a person.

这根本不可能，对吧？

It's impossible, right?

把自己哭成一滩烂泥是不可能的，但我认为很多人内心都带着这种恐惧，因为稍后我们还会稍微深入探讨这一点，到时候再说。

Dissolving a bundle of our own tears is impossible, but I think that's a fear that a lot of people live with because we can get into this a little bit later, and we will.

我确信，保护自我尊严这一观念在某种程度上对人类而言至关重要。

I'm sure this notion of protecting one's ego seems really vital to being a human being at some level.

我们不想化作一滩自己的眼泪。

We don't want to dissolve into a puddle of our own tears.

那么，自信是否就是在各种不同情境下信任自己的能力？

So is confidence the ability to trust ourselves in a bunch of different contexts?

同时，我也必须提出自恋这个概念。

And at the same time, I do have to raise this notion of narcissism.

你知道，这个词最近被频繁使用，但在我看来，任何真正心理健康的人都不会想成为那种以为自己比实际更优秀的人。

Think you know, this word gets thrown around a lot lately, but it seems to me that any truly psychologically healthy person would also not want to be the idiot that thinks that they're better than they actually are.

你对这一点有什么看法？

Are your thoughts on this?

嗯，我同意你关于自信的那些说法，但我想补充两个我认为非常重要的因素，对吧？

Well, I agree with the things that you said about confidence, except I would add two factors that I think are really big factors, right?

一个是状态依赖性，另一个是现象学，对吧？

One being state dependence and the other being phenomenology, right?

先想想状态依赖性。

So think about the state dependence first.

对吧？

Right?

当我们谈论自信时，它并不是一致的。

When we're talking about confidence, it's it's not uniform.

对吧？

Right?

或者它并不是自动一致的。

Or it's not automatically uniform.

对吧？

Right?

所以如果你告诉我，哦，我缺乏自信。

So if so if you were to tell me, oh, oh, I lack confidence.

对吧？

Right?

那么我想弄清楚，这是普遍情况吗？

Then I want to understand, is that across the board?

比如，你是不是觉得在任何事情上都不够好？

Is like, is that a way that you feel about yourself that like, I'm not good enough at anything, for example.

对吧？

Right?

还是你只是在某个特定领域缺乏自信？

Or do you lack confidence in a specific area?

对吧？

Right?

这种情况很常见。

And this is often the case.

对吧？

Right?

这之间的差别非常大。

And it's it's a huge difference.

对吧？

Right?

它说这个人具备自信的内在机制，这么说吧。

It says that person has the machinery of confidence, so to speak.

对吧？

Right?

他们拥有自信的潜力和倾向，当这种人格结构、建立在其上的自我与世界互动时，就是如此。

They have the potentialities and the predispositions for confidence, right, when that character structure, the self built upon it is engaging with the world.

对吧？

Right?

但在某种特定情境下，他们无法发挥出这种能力，这么说吧。

But they're not able to bring it to bear in a certain special situation, so to speak.

对某些人来说，我们最常见的例子就是恋爱领域，因为恋爱情感负荷太重，被拒绝的感觉太糟糕，所以我们常常看到一些人在生活的许多方面都非常自信，但在恋爱上却非常羞怯。

So for some people, for example, way we most often see this is like the carve out of romance, right, where because it's so emotionally laden, right, and like rejection can feel so bad, right, that we can see people who are very confident in many, many aspects of life, but they are very diffident about romance.

我们会说他们缺乏自信：‘我从来都不成功’，或者‘永远不会有人喜欢我。’

And we'll say diffident, oh, it never works out for me, or No one will ever like me.

对吧？

Right?

但你看到，那个人实际上并不是这样看待自己作为一个完整的人的，对吧？

And you see, like, that's not how that person actually feels, right, about themselves as a whole human being.

对吧？

Right?

这正是我们正在探讨如何以一种非常稳固的方式改善这种情况，对吧？

Which is then we are coming at how to make that better in a way that's very robust, right?

我们可能会说，嘿，好消息是你已经具备了所需的工具和能力，对吧？

We might say something like, Hey, here's the good news is you have the tools and the machinery that you need, right?

你在很多方面都很自信，对吧？

You're confident in so many ways, right?

事实上，也许在所有方面都很自信，除了这一个。

In fact, maybe in all ways, except this one.

所以让我们来看看，为什么这个方面特别呢？

So let's go take a look at like, why is that special?

对吧？

Right?

那我们现在在哪？

And then where are we?

我们又回到了这个问题：是潜意识中的某种东西吗？

We're back to, is it something in the unconscious mind?

是意识层面中，关于这个人如何与外界互动的某种东西吗？

Is it something in the conscious mind about how that person is engaging?

对吧？

Right?

所以我们必须理解这种状态，以及缺乏自信是否是情境依赖的。

So we have to understand what the state is and if the lack of confidence is state dependent.

如果这个人无论在什么情况下都不自信，那我们就又回到同样的地方去寻找原因，对吧？

If the person is not confident across the board, then again, we go back to the same, you always go back to the same places to look, right?

但你可能会更进一步想：童年创伤或早期生活创伤是否剥夺了这个人获得自信的能力？

But then you might more think, okay, is there an impact of childhood trauma or early life trauma that that took away from that person, you know, their ability to to gain confidence?

对吧？

Right?

因为如果你在各个方面都没有自信，那就意味着存在更深层的问题。

Because if you have no confidence across the board, there's a deeper problem.

对吧？

Right?

因为总会有某件事是任何人都能做好并感到自信的。

Because there would be something anyone can be good about and feel confident in.

对吧？

Right?

因此，状态的依赖性非常重要，现象学也是如此。

So the state dependence is very important as is phenomenology.

你对自己感到自信的体验是什么？

So what is your experience of being confident?

如果你告诉我，比如说，在这个例子的另一种情况下，你说：实际上，当我走进一群人当中时，我感觉相当自信。

If you tell me, well, I'm let's say in a different version of this example, you say, you know, actually, feel quite confident when I walk into a room of people.

我说，好吧，我也想更多地了解这一点，对吧？

I say, okay, I want to understand more about that too, right?

因为如果我问你关于这个的问题，而你回答说，嗯，我感到自信是因为，你看，我挺聪明的。

Because if I ask questions about that and you say, well, I feel confident because, you know, look, I'm a pretty smart person.

我能随机应变，也能很好地与人相处。

I can think on my feet, I can deal well with people.

如果事情不顺利，我也能从中恢复。

If something doesn't go right, I can recover from it.

比如，我有这些优势，这就是我感到自信的原因，你说，好吧，这听起来不错。

Like, I've got, you know, it's why I feel confident, you know, say, Okay, that sounds pretty good.

如果你说，我感到自信是因为我知道自己比所有人都强。

If you say, well, I feel confident because I know that I'm better than everybody.

对吧？

Right?

现在我们就有问题了，对吧？

Now we have a problem, right?

对吧？

Right?

就像那样，在其他方面，你知道，在生活和交往的其他方面也不会顺利，你知道，这不会带来谦逊和感恩。

Like that's not going to go well in other, you know, in other aspects of life and engagement like this, you know, it's not going to lead to humility and gratitude.

那么这又是从何而来呢？

And so where's that coming from?

而且，也许存在更深层的问题，对吧？

And, maybe there's a deeper problem, right?

就像你之前提到的自恋，对吧？

As you you said about narcissism, right?

这可能是一种反应，对吗？

Which can be a a reaction, right?

这是一种对脆弱性的反应。

Which is a reaction to vulnerability.

对吧？

Right?

所以这就叫反向形成，这个人实际上内心非常自卑，但表现得极其自信，充满优越感，而这并不是幸福的秘诀，对吧？

So then there's was called a reaction formation, and now the person is actually deeply diffident, right, but presents as very, very confident and with a sense of superiority, and that's not a recipe for happiness, right?

因此，在处理这个问题时，我们确实需要理解你提到的所有方面。

So in approaching it, we do want to understand all the things that you said.

有哪些因素、 predispositions（倾向性）和潜在可能性？

What are the factors and the set of predispositions and the set of potentialities?

但这些在不同情境下的真实生活体验又是怎样的？

But then what's the real world experience of that across situations?

而这个人内心对这些体验的感受又是怎样的？这正是为什么如果我们想要理解并帮助他人，就必须先理解——这就是‘理解’的部分，对吧？

And what is the person's experience of that inside, which is why if we're going to understand and help people, like that's the understand part, right?

你知道，像流水线式的医疗方式，在处理人类心理健康这类问题时，根本行不通，对吧？

You know, it's why the conveyor belt medicine, you know, it doesn't work, right, in situations where we're dealing with human beings, like mental health, right?

我们必须了解一些关于人的东西，才能理解他们所说的话背后的真正含义。

We have to understand something about people to understand whatever they're telling us means.

否则，你就没有上下文，也就没有真正的认知。

Otherwise, you have no context, so you have no knowledge.

我经常遇到另一组非常常见的问题，我认为这与这一点直接相关，那就是关于信念和内在叙事。

Another very common set of questions that I get that I believe is very directly related to this is about beliefs and internal narratives.

人们经常问我，我该如何改变对自己的信念？

You know, people ask me all the time, how can I change what I believe about myself?

他们还问，我该如何改变脑海中的剧本？

And they also ask, how can I change the script in my head?

通常他们会问，我该如何停止脑海中的某个特定叙事？

How do I, Typically it's how do I shut down a particular narrative in my head?

这似乎非常适合从自我的结构角度来思考，因为正如你所指出的，自我或自我的结构包括无意识心理、冰山模型水面以下的部分、意识心理中的内容，而意识心理受到这些从无意识中发展出来的防御机制的保护，这些机制催生了人格结构，然后形成了我们所谓的自我。

This seems to fit very well in thinking about structure of self, because as you pointed out, the self or the structure of self includes the unconscious mind, what's going on below the surface of the water in this iceberg model, what's going on in the conscious mind, that the conscious mind is protected by these defense mechanisms that grow up from the unconscious mind, from that comes a character structure and then this thing that we call the self.

是的。

Right.

对吧？

Right?

但当谈到信念和内在叙事时，在我看来，这些是人们通常相当清楚的东西。

But when it comes to beliefs and internal narratives, those seem to me things that people are pretty well aware of.

事实上，人们经常问我这个问题——如何改变信念和内心叙事——本身就意味着他们已经意识到了这些。

In fact, the very example that people are asking me this all the time, how to change beliefs, internal narratives, means they are aware of them.

这也表明，对许多人来说，他们对自己的信念和内心叙事并不健康，或者至少他们觉得这些没有很好地服务于自己，或者它们是侵入性的。

It also suggests that for many people out there, their beliefs about themselves and their internal narratives are not healthy, or at least they don't feel are serving them well, or that they are intrusive.

我不知道人们在你的临床实践中，对于他们的信念和内心叙事会有多开放。

I don't know how open people are about their beliefs and internal narratives when they come to you in your clinical practice.

但如果你能稍微谈谈信念和内心叙事，以及它们是否重要到需要重新调整和重置。

But if you could tell us a little bit about beliefs and internal narratives and whether or not they are important to rewire and reset.

这部分极其重要，对吧？

This part is extremely important, right?

所以想象一下，比如我一遍又一遍地告诉自己我是个失败者，对吧？

So imagine, for example, that I'm saying to myself over and over again that I'm a loser, right?

或者我不够好，对吧？

Or I'm not good enough, right?

我的意思是，想象一下，如果另一个人一直对你说这些话，你还怎么过日子，对吧？

I mean, imagine trying to go through life and someone else were saying that to you all the time, right?

我的意思是，当这种声音出现在你自己的脑子里时，情况更糟。

I mean, it's worse when it's inside your own head.

因此，我们内心正在发生什么——我们的内心对话、内在叙事——是极其重要的。

So what's going on inside of us, our internal dialogue, our internal narratives are extremely important.

而这里我们遇到了一个很大的问题：我们生活在一个极度追求即时满足的时代和文化中。

And here's where we run into a very big problem, is that we live in an era and in a culture that is very attuned to rapid gratification.

我们所讨论的这一切确实可以改变，但不会很快发生。

And all of this that we're talking about can change, but it does not change quickly.

让我感到惊讶的是，在保险体系下，无论一个人的情况如何，通常只提供十次认知行为治疗。

And it's amazing to me when, you'll see under insurance paradigms often, no matter what's going on with someone, they can have 10 sessions of cognitive behavioral treatment.

如果我们试图改变信念，这几乎注定会失败，因为信念不会那么快就改变，对吧？

If there's something like we're trying to change beliefs, it's a guarantee of failure, because beliefs don't change that fast, right?

所以，举个例子，假设你和我选了一个词，一个随机的词，然后决定重复说它500遍，对吧？

So imagine, for example, that we, you you and I chose a word, a random word, and we decided to say it 500 times, right?

我们今晚都会在说这个词，对吧？

We'd each be saying it tonight, right?

我们不可能今晚就把它从脑子里清除掉，毕竟我们只是选了一个随机词，说了500遍，对吧？

It's not going to be out of our minds by tonight, because we, what, took a random word and said it 500 times, right?

所以想象一下，如果有一件事情感负荷极重，而我们已经说了成千上万遍，对吧？

So imagine that there's something that's highly emotionally laden, and we've said it thousands and thousands and thousands of times, right?

它不可能很快消失，对吧？

It's not going to go away quickly, right?

但它可以消失。

But it can go away.

在这个逐渐消退的过程中，我们的生活其实可以变得更好，对吧？

And during the process of it atrophying, right, our lives can get better, right?

这恰恰不是绝望，对吧？

This is the opposite of hopeless, right?

这实际上非常鼓舞人心。

It's actually very, very encouraging.

但在一个追求即时满足的世界里，对吧？

But in a world that's rapid gratification, right?

比如，我们该如何解决这个问题？

Like, how do we fix this?

我们该如何解决这个不被承认的问题？

How do we fix this now that doesn't acknowledge this?

我们经常听说有人治疗失败了。

We hear all the time that a person has failed therapy.

对吧？

Right?

就像人们常说的那样，那个人失败了。

Like this is said all the time, that person failed.

治疗失败是什么意思？

What does failed therapy mean?

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我认为是治疗让那个人失败了。

I mean, I think therapy failed that person.

对吧？

Right?

但我们却说，哦，这个人没好转。

But we label like, oh, a person isn't better.

对吧？

Right?

但我们内心有很多事情，可能需要几个月甚至几年才能改善。

But there are things going on inside of us that could take months and months or years to make better.

不过，如果我们清楚自己正在经历什么，那也没关系。

Now, again, that's okay if we're aware of what's going on.

只要我们意识到并正在做出改变，这本身就能让我们对自己感觉更好、更有信心，相信自己能够改变这一切，但我们必须以正确的方式去面对。

Just the very fact that we understand and we're making change, right, helps us feel better about ourselves and more confident, right, that we can change all of this, but we have to approach it in the right way.

假设我一遍又一遍地告诉自己：你达不到目标，对吧？

So let's say that I'm telling myself over and over again, You're not going to get there, right?

假设我想去的一个职业目标，对吧？

And let's say, A place I want to go professionally, right?

或者说，根本没人会真正想要你，对吧？

Or no one's ever gonna really want you, right?

如果是说，我正在寻找一个浪漫伴侣，对吧？

If it's, I'm looking for a romantic partner, right?

所以想象一下，这些想法不断出现，一遍又一遍地重复。

So imagine these things are going on and they're going on over and over again.

现在你可以想象，它已经侵入到潜意识中，在我的意识层面持续运作，我的防御机制正以消极的方式转变，我变得越来越回避。

And you can imagine now that it's intruded into the unconscious mind, it's going on in my conscious mind, my defensive structure is shifting in negative ways, I'm becoming more avoidant.

比如，这一切都不好。

Like, nothing about this is good.

我想要改变它。

And I want it to change.

我想把它变成一种能告诉自己‘你能做到’的声音，对吧？

And I want it to change to something that says, like, You can do it, right?

或者，‘你是值得被爱的’，对吧？

Or, you're lovable, right?

或者你可以成为某人的好伴侣。

Or you can be a good partner to someone.

所以我想改变它，对吧？

So I wanna change it, right?

所以想象一下，当我开始做出这种改变时，我正在开辟一条新路，对吧？

So imagine now when I start to make that change, I'm blazing a path, right?

而且我正在以前从未有过路径的地方开辟一条新路，对吧？

And I'm blazing a path where there wasn't a path before, right?

我可以开辟一条路并走过这条路，但这条路绝不会像我旁边那条四车道高速公路那样，那条路是我多年来、多年、多年因创伤而不断告诉自己的东西，对吧，它一直在

And I can blaze a path and I can go through that path, but that path is going to be nothing like maybe the four lane highway, right, adjacent to me where the thing that I've been telling myself for years and years and years born of trauma, right, is going

回去

back

来回穿梭，对吧？

and forth, right?

我的意思是，那是一条四车道高速公路。

I mean, it's got a four lane highway.

我正在开辟一条路，对吧？

I'm cutting a path, right?

但随着时间推移，你会越来越频繁地开辟这条路。

But over time, you cut that path more and more.

你会越来越频繁地走这条路。

You tread that path more and more.

你会把更多精力投入到这条路上。

You take energy towards that path.

这条路会变得更好。

It becomes better.

现在想象一下，这条路灯火通明，有12英尺宽，也许我们还能铺上路面，让更多的“交通”走这条路，同时把精力从那条四车道高速公路上转移开，让那条路逐渐荒芜，路面出现裂缝。

Now let's imagine like the path is well lit and it's 12 feet wide, and maybe we can pave the path so more traffic, so to speak, goes down it, and we're taking energy away from that four lane highway, and maybe it starts to be overgrown a little bit and there are cracks in the road.

我们可以改变这一切，但必须理解正在发生什么，并识别出来。

Like, we can change all of that, but we have to understand what's going on and identify it.

那我内心究竟在发生什么？

Like, what is going on inside of me?

我该如何理解它？

What do I make of it?

对吧？

Right?

我该如何理解改变的过程？

How do I understand the process of change?

在改变的过程中，我该如何增强自己的掌控感？

How do I increase my empowerment during the process of change?

如果我们以正确的方式对待，这一切都可以改变。

If we come at it the right way, all of this can be changed.

这并不是我们与生俱来的。

It's not hardwired in us.

这只是一种非常非常强烈的强化。

It's just very, very strongly reinforced.

我们的大脑就是这样构建的，就像我们不会忘记自己的名字，对吧？

Same way our brains are built this way, so like we don't forget our own names, right?

你知道吗，我们不会忘记自己住在哪里，就像在狩猎采集时代，我们不会忘记哪里的水果最好，对吧？

You know, we don't forget where we live, you know, back when we were hunting and gathering, we don't forget, you know, where the good fruits are, right?

我的意思是，这种现象在当今人类生活中依然存在。

I mean, this goes on in human life now.

比如，我们必须记住一些事情。

Like, we have to remember things.

如果某件事具有强烈的情感价值，并且我们反复思考过，我们就不会忘记它，这非常重要。

It's very, very important if something is has high emotional valence and we've thought it a lot that we don't forget it.

但这种机制会被对我们有害的事物所劫持，而我们可以重新掌控它，前提是我们必须理解它。

But that mechanism gets hijacked by things that are not good for us, and we can take it back, but not if we don't understand.

为了帮助患者走上这条道路，你会给他们哪些工具或提出哪些问题？

What are the tools or the questions that you give or ask of patients in order to help them along that pathway?

我完全同意，改变信念和内在叙事是非常非常困难的。

Because I totally agree that changing beliefs and internal narratives is very, very hard.

举一个与身体健康领域相关的简单例子。

Just one quick example that meshes with the physical health realm.