嘉宾系列 | 保罗·康蒂博士：心理健康工具与方案

这并不总是一个深刻的见解。

It's not always a great insight.

事实上，这几乎从不是什么深刻的见解。

In fact, it's rarely a great insight.

但它总是让我感到意外，有时带来一丝喜悦，有时带来一点震惊。

But it always takes me a bit by surprise, sometimes a little bit of delight, sometimes a little bit of shock.

哇，这想法到底是从哪儿冒出来的？

Like, wow, like, where did that come from?

因为它来自你的潜意识。

Because it came from your unconscious mind.

对吧？

Right?

它对你来说原本是看不见的，然后突然浮现出来，你就会惊讶地意识到，而这时你正做着一些相对平凡的事情。

It was invisible to you, then it got thrown up, and you're, woah, and you realize it while in the midst of doing something relatively mundane.

对吧？

Right?

因为白天你一直在参与活动。

Because during the day, you're engaging.

你的大脑高度活跃，这很好，但这几乎没有给潜意识留下空间，而潜意识每秒能进行数百万次运算来帮助你理清思路，这正是同样的原因。

Your brain is highly engaged, which is great, but it doesn't leave a lot of room, right, for for the unconscious mind to do its millions and millions of things a second that can help you figure things out, which is the same reason.

我的意思是，这真是不可思议。

I mean, it's uncanny.

任何精神科医生都会告诉你，有人会进来就说，这很奇怪。

Any psychiatrist will tell you this, that people a person will come in and say, it's strange.

你知道吗？

You know?

当我终于能放松下来时，偏偏就在这时我出现了恐慌发作。

All of a sudden when I can finally relax, like, that's when I have a panic attack.

对吧？

Right?

或者他们自己也不明白。

Or they don't know.

比如，当我终于能放松下来，心想‘啊’，然后心跳加速、浑身冒汗。

Like, then I can finally relax and go, ah, and then my heart's beating fast and I'm sweating.

对吧？

Right?

因为恐慌发作就是这时候发生的。

Because that's when the panic attacks come.

如果一个人正承受着某种持续困扰他的东西，当你不再向外专注，而是逐渐转向内在状态时，那些潜藏在表面之下的东西就会浮出水面。

If the person is laboring under something that causing them, there's a constant distress, when you stop focusing outward and you sort of settle into an inward state, then the things that are underneath the surface are gonna come to the surface.

如果你内心有件让你非常不安或极度恐惧的事，你的大脑会把什么推到表面来？

And if there's something really bothering you that your brain is very upset about or very afraid of, what does it throw up to the surface?

一场恐慌发作。

A panic attack.

对吧？

Right?

但如果你状态良好，照顾好自己，处于一个富有创造力的阶段，身处安全的环境中，那么当你不再把所有注意力都放在外部时。

But if you're in a good place, you're taking care of yourself, you're in a generative stage, you're in a safe environment, then when you you stop putting all the attention outward.

所以我们想象，显著性发生了变化，原本大部分的注意力集中在外部，现在开始转向内部，你只是处于一种冥想状态。

So we imagine then salience changes, and instead of a lot of the salience being outward, it starts to be inward, and you're just sort of meditative.

你正在洗碗。

You're washing the dishes.

对吧？

Right?

这时，你的潜意识就有了空间，把一些重要的东西推到表面。

And there's room then for your unconscious mind to throw something important to the surface.

这恰恰与人们试图回忆某事时却怎么也想不起来的情况相反。

It's the exact opposite of how people can't remember something if they're trying to think of it.

我的意思是，我们都经历过这种事。

I mean, we all go through this.

比如，我想不起那个人的名字，或者那家餐厅，或者其他什么。

Like, I can't remember that person's name or that restaurant or whatever it is.

你越使劲想，越想不出来。

Try to keep thinking about it and see if you figure it out.

对吧？

Right?

答案不在你的意识中。

The answer is not in your conscious mind.

所以如果你一直动用你的意识，只会制造挫败感。

So if you keep bringing your conscious mind to bear, you just generate frustration.

对吧？

Right?

但当你不再去想的时候，答案就在你内心了。

But then when you stop thinking about it, the answer is there inside of you.

哦，我想起来了。

Oh, I remember now.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果我们让意识去处理它无法解决的问题，它就根本解决不了，对吧？

So so that's how if we if we have the conscious mind engaged in something it's not gonna figure out, right, then it doesn't figure the thing out.

对吧？

Right?

而且这对我们的问题也适用。

And and that works for our problems too.

所以一个人会说，我为此想了十年。

That's why a person can say, I thought about that for ten years.

好吧，你反复琢磨了十年。

Well, you ruminated about it for ten years.

它只是在意识中一遍又一遍地循环，多么讽刺啊，对吧？这反而阻碍了理解。

It just ran over and over and over in the conscious mind, and how ironic, right, it prevents understanding.

因此，对我来说非常清楚的是，针对自己和自己的自我叙事、人生经历提出某些类型的问题，在进行这种实践的当下时刻，以及在潜意识层面（或者更准确地说，无意识层面），都是非常有益的。

So it's very clear to me that asking certain kinds of questions about oneself and one's self narrative, life history essentially, can be very beneficial in the moment or moments of doing that practice, as well as the subconscious, or I guess the appropriate way to refer to it as the unconscious, Okay.

所以对于那些像我一样有时会说‘潜意识’的人，正确的说法应该是‘无意识’。

So for those out there who like me sometimes say subconscious, it's unconscious.

无意识可以将一些东西推到表面，带来真正的洞见，不仅能给我们带来恐慌发作——我想大多数人会想避开这种体验——但正如你所指出的，恐慌发作的发生本身在特定条件下也蕴含着信息

The unconscious can throw things up to the surface that can be real insights, can give us not just panic attacks, which I think most people would like to shy away from, but as you point out, there's information in the fact that the panic attack is occurring under conditions of if

你搅动了无意识的漩涡，注入一些新信息，它就能产生新的变化。

you stir up the pot of the unconscious and you put some new information in, it can do new things.

它能发现新的东西，这就是为什么自我反思，以及通常的治疗过程，并不总是愉快的，事实上往往并不愉快。

It can figure new things out, which is why the process of self reflection, for example, and often the process of therapy is not always, and in fact often is not a pleasant process.

对吧？

Right?

但通过这种艰苦的努力，我们获得了新的洞见。

But then we take away from that hard work renewed insights.

对某些人来说，这种情况经常发生，他们知道内心存在某种创伤，并且一直在影响着他们，无论这种影响持续了几天、几周还是几年。

To someone this happens all the time who knows they know that a certain trauma is inside of them and has been affecting them, whether it's for days or weeks or years.

他们知道这一点。

They know it.

但他们不知道该如何应对。

They don't know what to do about it.

他们对此感到矛盾，于是不断试图将它压制在表面之下。

They have a conflict about it, so they keep trying to shove it under the surface.

他们最终因为某种原因决定去谈论它。

And they they finally accept for whatever reason to to talk about it.

而通常发生的情况是，比如连续四周每周进行一小时的心理治疗，这个人会哭泣、感到不安或愤怒。

And and what often happens then is, let's say, doing three or four successive weeks of hourly therapy, I mean, that person is crying, and that person is upset, or that person is angry.

我的意思是，虽然并不总是这样，但随着情况逐渐好转，这种情况确实经常发生。

I mean, it doesn't always happen this way, but it does a fair amount of the time as they get better and better.

对吧？

Right?

因为他们正在释放一些能量。

Because they're discharging some of the energy.

对吧？

Right?

也许他们在哭泣，因为他们感到悲伤，这是他们在以前从未哀悼过的事情。

Maybe they're crying, and and they're they're sad because they're grieving something they haven't grieved before.

对吧？

Right?

因为他们一直很生气。

Because they've just been angry.

对，或者他们一直感到羞愧。

Right, or they've just been ashamed.

一个典型的例子是死亡。

A classic example is a death.

我的意思是，人们多少次会想，这件事不可能还在影响我。

I mean, how many times do people think, well, that can't be still affecting me.

那是很多年前的事了，但他们从未真正哀悼过，因为他们内心一直觉得，这是我的错。

It was x number of years ago, but they've never actually grieved because they carry in them, oh, it was my fault.

对吧？

Right?

我们多少次听到过这种说法？

And and how many times do we hear that?

我之前本该说点别的。

I should have said something different before.

我本该去做的，你知道，我们会回头审视那些让我们感到难受的事情。

I should have gone you know, we then back map something that makes us feel bad.

而内疚和羞耻会导致无法处理悲伤。

And then from the guilt and shame comes the inability to process grief.

所以如果一个人开始面对，没错，我对此感到非常糟糕。

So if the person then deals with, right, I feel so bad about this.

事实上，我为此感到无比羞愧，觉得这都是我的错。

In fact, I feel so ashamed of it, and I feel like it's my fault.

所以，好吧。

And so, okay.

那我们来谈谈这个吧。

Well, let's talk about that.

对吧？

Right?

我哥哥自杀去世后，我感到自己负有责任。

After my after my brother's death by suicide, I felt responsible.

我当时完全没接触过心理健康方面的事。

I was not involved in any way in mental health.

那时我正在从事商业工作，最后我还是去看了专业人士。

I had a business career at the time, and I finally went and saw someone.

我并不认为接受心理咨询是应该做的事，但我意识到：嘿，我不对劲。

I wasn't acculturated that getting therapy was something one did, but I realized, Hey, I'm not okay.

对吧？

Right?

所以我不知道该怎么做，对吧？

So I didn't know how, right?

我只知道它的表现形式是痛苦和风险。

I just knew the manifestation of it, which was misery and risk.

而且，你知道，我能感觉到，我知道不这样感觉是什么样子，而这种状态是不对的。

And, you know, I could just tell, like, I know what it feels like to not feel like this, and this is not okay.

所以，我就打了保险公司的电话。

So so then I, you know, I called the insurance number.

最终，我去见了一位心理治疗师。

Eventually, I go in and and see a therapist.

当然，她肯定是一位非常优秀的治疗师，但说真的，她其实并不需要那么专业，因为有时候我们并不需要动用所有学到的知识。

And, you know, she did I'm sure she was a very good therapist, but she didn't, in a sense, need to be in the sense that sometimes we don't need to use all the things we know.

我们只需要和某人进行一些基本的交流，她就是这么对我做的。

We can do just something basic with someone, and that's all she did with me.

我的意思是，她让我谈起了这件事，然后我倾诉了自己有多羞愧，因为我觉得这是我的错。

I mean, she got me talking about it, and then I talked about how ashamed I was because it was my fault.

真的吗？

And then really?

然后她温和地质疑了我这种想法，我这才意识到，自己对这件事感到极度震惊——这完全出乎我的意料，我现在的困扰其实正是这种震惊，以及随之而来的羞耻和内疚感，我把它压在心底，不知道该如何处理，结果它引发了各种痛苦，让我根本无法真正地哀悼。

And then she challenged me about that and then you know, in a nice way, but then it was became clear that I was so utterly shocked by it, right, far from it being foreseeable to me, right, that the problem that I was having now was the shock of it and the sense of shame and guilt that it raised in me and then me shoving it under the surface, not knowing what to do with it, then it's making all sorts of misery in me, and I can't actually grieve.

对吧？

Right?

所以在那些治疗过程中，某一个时刻，我开始感到悲伤，甚至哭了出来。

So at some point during those sessions, now I'm sad and I'm crying.

对吧？

Right?

我知道她在想什么。

And and I know what she was thinking.

对吧？

Right?

她很厉害。

She's good.

好吧。

Okay.

这真是太好了。

This is like this thank goodness.

这个人正在好转。

This is this person getting better.

她可能感到松了一口气，因为她可以说：嘿。

She may have felt a sense of relief because she could say, hey.

他正在走出风险。

He's he's coming out of risk.

他能够感受到悲伤。

He's able to feel sadness.

他能够哀悼。

He's able to grieve.

以前他从未这样做过。

Hasn't been doing this before.

你知道的。

You know?

所以，正是我们投入的这份努力，才带来了改变，就像在身体健康方面一样。

So it's that work, if we put into it, that makes a difference just as in physical health.

我的意思是，如果我想更强壮、更健康，我就得去健身房锻炼，或者做一些艰难的工作，然后才能从中获益。

I mean, if I want to be stronger, I want to be more robust, like I have to go to the gym and work, or I have to do something that's that's hard work, and then I get the benefit of it.

同样的道理也适用于我们反思自己的人生故事时，它会带来一些困难的情绪，或者当我们与他人交谈时，或者在治疗中进行这些活动时。

And the same is true whether we're reflecting on our life narrative and it brings, you know, some difficult emotions to us, or whether we're talking with someone, or whether we're doing it in therapy.

但正是这种探究过程引导我们，可以说，去解开我们内心那些复杂的结，直接斩断它们，而不是试图去想：我该怎么才能让自己感觉良好，即使我应对兄弟的死负有责任，因为我本该预见到——这种想法行不通。

But that's how that that process of inquiry leads us, you know, to take some of the Gordian knots in us, so to speak, and and to cut them instead of trying to figure out, like, how am I gonna feel okay about myself even though I'm responsible for my brother's death because I should have foreseen I mean, that doesn't work.

对吧？

Right?

你必须承认：我看到了这个问题所在，而它必须消失。

You have to say, like, I see what that thing is, and that has to go away.

对吧？

Right?

然后，治疗能引导我们到达这样的境地：哦，这并不是我的错，天啊，我很难过。

And then therapy can lead us to the point where, oh, it wasn't my fault, and oh my goodness, I'm sad.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors AG1.

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AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that meets all of your foundational nutrition needs.

我从2012年就开始服用AG1，因此很高兴他们能赞助这个播客。

I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

我开始服用AG1的原因，以及我至今仍每天服用一次或通常两次的原因，是因为这是确保我摄入饮食中所需所有维生素、矿物质、益生菌和纤维的最简便方式。

The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take AG1 once or generally twice per day is that it's the easiest way for me to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and fiber that I need in my diet.

当然，从天然食物中获取适当营养至关重要，但大多数人，包括我自己，都很难每天摄入足够的水果和蔬菜，尤其是难以获得足够的益生元和益生菌来维持肠道健康。

Now, of course it's essential to get proper nutrition from whole foods, but most people, including myself, find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day, and especially to get enough prebiotics and probiotics to ensure gut health.

正如你可能知道的，你的肠道中含有数万亿的微生物，即所谓的肠道菌群，它们与你身体的其他器官建立关键联系，以促进大脑健康，并支持免疫系统以及其他与心理和身体健康相关的方面。

As you may know, your gut contains trillions of little microbiota, the so called gut microbiome, which establishes critical connections with other organs of your body to enhance brain health, as well as to support your immune system and other aspects that relate to mental and physical health.

我常被问到的一个问题是：如果你只能选择一种补充剂，你会选哪一种？

One of the most common questions I get is if you were to take just one supplement, which supplement would that be?

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And my answer is always AG1 because by taking AG1, I'm able to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, and probiotics that I need to enhance my mental health, physical health, and performance.

如果你想尝试AG1，请前往drinkag1.com/huberman领取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

他们会赠送你五份免费的旅行装，以及一整年的维生素D3K2。

They'll give you five free travel packs and they'll give you a year supply of vitamin D3K2.

再次提醒，前往drinkag1.com/huberman领取这项特别优惠。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.

我能看出自我反省确实非常有力。

I can see how self inquiry is really powerful.

我自己的生活中也确实经历过这一点，而且这是一个持续的过程。

I've certainly experienced that in my own life, and it's an ongoing process.

对吧？

Right?

这不是一种做完就停止的事情。

This is not something that one does and then stops.

理想情况下，你应该一辈子都这样做，就像保持身体健康一样。

Ideally, you do it forever, just like physical fitness.

同时，我知道很多人可能对自我反省心存顾虑，尤其是因为它会带来痛苦，并让你意识到那些必须直面的问题。

And at the same time, I know that a number of people perhaps are wary of self inquiry, especially because of the pain points it can bring about and make conscious and that we have to really sit with.

大多数人宁愿避免不适。

And most people would like to avoid discomfort.

我肯定也有一些人生活得不错，因此觉得：哦，自我反省这种模式，听起来只会带来更多伤害。

I'm sure there are also people who are doing quite well in life and therefore think, oh, you know, pattern of self inquiry, all it could do, it sounds like is more harm.

我是说，我为什么要这么做？

Like, why would I wanna do that?

但我想我们都同意，通过自我探究，唯一能带来的只有好处、进步、更多的自主权和感恩。

But I think we both agree that there's nothing but good and progress and more agency and gratitude to be had by going through patterns of self inquiry.

我认为这突显了一个非常重要的点，那就是自我探究并不总是正确的答案。

And I think that really highlights something very important, which is that self inquiry isn't always the right answer.

不过，我认为即使生活顺利，也不意味着自我探究就不是该做的事。

Now, I think just because things are going well, that doesn't mean self inquiry isn't the right thing to do.

如果我们想更好地了解自己，自我探究永远是正确的选择，除非我们处于它可能带来真正风险的境地。

Self inquiry is always the right thing to do if we wanna understand ourselves better, unless we're in a place where it can bring real risk to us.

所以当我试图反思自己，探究为什么我如此痛苦、我内心发生了什么时，我最终意识到：我根本没有取得任何进展，反而变得更糟了，这对我已经不利了，因为这种自我探究让我陷入了更多的内疚和羞耻？

So when I was trying to think about myself, inquire why was I so miserable, what's going on in me, I mean, I reached a point where I realized like, I'm not getting myself anywhere and I'm getting worse, and like, this is now, this is not good for me, because where did this self inquiry lead me to more guilt and shame?

于是，在某个时刻，我果断地停止了，心想：我不能再独自进行下去了，对吧？

So then at some point I sort of pulled the rip cord right on, it's like, can't do this on my own anymore, right?

这对任何在听的人都是非常重要的：如果你觉得自己并不安全或不稳定。

And that's very, very important to anyone who's listening if you feel like, look, I don't think I'm in a safe or a stable place.

再次，有自残的想法、绝望的想法，这时可能并不合适，或者至少我们应该保持谨慎，对吧？

Again, thoughts of self harm, thoughts of hopelessness, it probably is not, or let's on the side of being cautious, right?

在这种情况下，进行自我反思并不是一个好主意。

It is not a good idea then to engage in self inquiry.

对吧？

Right?

首先，去找专业的临床医生。

First, see someone clinically.

对吧？

Right?

我知道在这个时代，这样做可能很难，但如果我们真正为自己争取，积极努力，尽一切可能去寻求能帮助我们理解自身需求的人，也许这个人还能协助我们进行自我反思。

And and I know that can be hard to do in in this day and age, but if we really advocate for ourselves, we really push, you know, we really you know, we we do whatever we can do to try and get in front of someone who can kind of help us understand what we may need, and maybe that person helps us with the process of self inquiry.

也许这个人会给我们安慰。

Maybe that person reassures us.

也许这个人会告诉我们，我们确实需要更多的关怀和帮助，从而促使我们获得这些支持，以便我们能够重新回到适合进行自我反思的良好状态。

Maybe that person then tells us that we really do need, you know, more care, more help, and then it leads to us getting that so that we can come back to the good place of being well enough for the self inquiry.

我很感激你分享了你与临床医生合作的经历，以及单纯依靠自己专注某件事并不奏效的事实，听起来确实需要一位临床医生来引导你度过这一过程。

I'm grateful you shared your path to working with a clinician and the fact that just focusing on something on your own wasn't really working, and there was a it sounds like a requirement for a clinician to help guide you through that.

这直接关联到我此刻最感兴趣的问题，也就是你在第一集中为我们建立的、并贯穿了所有这些集数的那张地图。

It relates directly to what I'm most curious about at this moment, which is in the map that you established for us in episode one and that has carried through all these episodes.

顺便说一下，如果有人还不熟悉这张地图，我们稍后会更深入地讲解一下。

And by the way, if people are not familiar with the map, we will cover it in top contour in a little bit more depth in a moment here.

但在这张地图中，其中一个关键的‘抽屉’，也就是我们用来进行自我关怀、改善心理健康的方面，就是自我觉察的概念——真正理解‘我’的存在，探索此刻‘我’究竟是什么，以及通过叙事等方式回溯历史。

But one of the key things as, or cupboards as we're referring to them, to look in, in order to exert self care and improve one's mental health is this notion of self awareness, of really understanding that there's an I, a me, and exploring what that's really about in the moment, but also historically through narrative, etcetera.

这张地图中还有一个与显著性相关的抽屉。

Also in this map is a cupboard that relates to salience.

什么是最明显的？我们在内心会默认关注哪些想法？在外部世界，我们又会聚焦于什么？

What's most obvious or what do we default to both internally in terms of what sorts of thoughts we default to and externally, what are we focusing on in the outside world?

我想，我以及许多其他人都在思考：如何调和旨在提升自我觉察、甚至唤起早期创伤或挑战、或近期创伤与挑战的实践，与显著性之间的冲突？

And I think I and perhaps many other people out there are wondering how to resolve any conflict between a practice that is aimed at increasing self awareness, and perhaps even drawing to mind early traumas or challenges, or recent traumas or challenges, and salience.

换句话说，如果我每周抽出一些时间，甚至一小时，静坐下来认真思考那些我不愿面对、却长期在潜意识中困扰我的事情——那些我已经学会压抑下去的内容。

In other words, if I were to take some moments or even an hour once a week and sit there and really think about the sorts of things that I don't want to think about, that have been gnawing at me below the surface for a very long time, the stuff that I've gained some proficiency at pushing down beneath the surface.

我认为我可能有一个恐惧，也假定其他人也有类似的恐惧，那就是如果我主动去回想那些事，它们会占据我大量清醒的时间。

I think one fear that I have, and so I have to assume other people have it as well, is that if I were to bring that to mind, that it would overtake a lot of my waking hours.

就像我不想思考这件事或那些事。

It's like, I don't want to think about this thing or those things.

所以现在变得突出的是某些负面的东西。

And so now what's salient is something negative.

当我专注于负面事物时，我就无法像我希望的那样富有创造力，也无法朝着人生目标前进。

And when I'm focused on something negative, then I'm not able to be as generative as I would like, move forward toward my life goals.

现在，我甚至可能意识到，从认知上理解到：好吧，但这确实是必要的，对吧？

Now, I could even have the realization, cognitive understanding that, okay, but that's necessary, right?

这就像治疗伤口或应对慢性损伤。

Like this is like getting a wound fixed or dealing with a chronic injury.

迟早你都得面对它，否则你无法发挥出最佳状态。

Like sooner or later, you got to deal with it, otherwise you're not going to be at your best.

但在提升自我觉察与理解‘对我们而言最突出的事物定义了日常生活的质量’之间的这种冲突或张力，似乎是我们需要深入探讨的重要问题。

But that conflict between gaining more self awareness and also the understanding that what is most salient to us kind of defines the quality of our daily life, that conflict or friction seems like an important thing for us to drill into a little bit.

当然。

Absolutely.

我想说的是，如果你觉得有些事情你不敢带到意识中，因为它会占据你的全部思绪，或者像人们常说的，我会蜷缩成胎儿姿势，哭个不停。

And I would say this, if you think there's something that you can't bring up into consciousness because it's gonna take over your mind, or as people often say, I'm gonna curl up in a fetal position, I'm gonna cry and never stop.

这恰恰是你必须正视的事情，因为显著性会以各种方式呈现出来。

That is exactly the thing you must look at, because salience presents itself in a whole array of ways.

所以，如果你内心有什么东西足够强烈，以至于它不断涌向表面，提醒你‘也许你该想想我了’，对吧？

So if there's something inside of you that's strong enough, right, that it's throwing itself up to the surface, hey, maybe you wanna think about me, right?

因此，你的潜意识将它推到表面，说明它正在你体内活跃着。

So your unconscious mind throwing it up to the surface, that is active in you.

而且，尽管很多情况发生在潜意识中，但它们也常常出现在意识层面。

And often, although a lot of it happens in the unconscious mind, it happens also in the conscious mind.

如果一个人能停下来思考：你不去想的那件事，可能对你产生了多大的影响？

And if the person then stops and thinks, how much might that thing that you are not thinking about be impacting you?

它还可能以哪些其他方式产生显著影响？

How might it be salient in other ways?

有时候一个人会意识到，是的，这件事一直在我脑子里。

And sometimes a person will realize, like, yeah, that's on my mind.

人们会说，哦，这件事一直在我脑子里。

People say, oh, that's on my mind.

是的。

Yeah.

一直如此。

All the time.

它就像放在后台一样，但始终存在。

It's, like, kind of on the back burner, but always there.

他说，没错。

And he says, right.

你把什么放在了后台？

What are you on the back burner?

你知道，这就像是有一个声音在背景中告诉你一些非常消极或令人痛苦的事情。

You know, that's like having a a voice in the background telling you something, you know, very negative or very distressing.

这只是一个例子，通常在这种情况下，人们会意识到这件事实际上相当突出。

And it's just one example where where oftentimes there's a realization that that thing is actually quite salient.

有时候，这种意识要到后来才会出现。

Sometimes there isn't a realization until later.

哦，这件事的突出性在于，这就是为什么我不让自己想得太远的原因。

Oh, the salience of that is that I that's how or that's why I don't let myself get ahead.

对吧？

Right?

它可能会在之后浮现，因为我们不知道其中有多少是无意识的，有多少是有意识的。

It can come out later because, you know, we don't know how much of it is unconscious, how much of it is conscious.

但在合适的环境下，如果一切安全，正如我们所说，如果没有带来风险或需要临床干预的情况，而你内心有某种东西，觉得‘我不能让它浮出水面’，那么这其实是在告诉你：我必须让它浮出水面。

But but under the right circumstances, if things are safe, as we said, if there's not something going on that presents risk and warrants clinical care, if there's something inside of you and you think, I can't let that to the surface, then what that is telling you is, I must let that to the surface.

不过，我们还是要以审慎且安全的方式去做，但这就是其中的信息。

Now, again, we wanna do it in judicious ways and do it in ways that are safe, but that's that's the message.

我认为你提到的一点尤其重要：如果某件事时不时地困扰着我们的意识，那么它绝对是在我们的意识层面之下运作的。

I think it's especially important that you mentioned that if something is gnawing at our conscious mind every once in a while, then it absolutely has to be operating below the level of our conscious awareness.

也许在潜意识层面肆意妄为，是的。

Maybe running amok all the Below the level of consciousness, yes.

所以，如果有什么事情值得去探索，那就是这个，对吧？

So if ever there was a cause for exploring something like that, that's it, right?

因为我们无法意识到这些方式是如何伤害我们或限制我们的。

Because we can't be aware of the ways that's damaging to us or limiting us.

再次强调，听这段话的人可能过得不错，心想：我状态很好。

Again, somebody listening to this could be doing quite well and think, I'm doing great.

我为什么要去做这些事呢？

Why would I want to do any of this?

也许他们的状态还能更好。

Well, perhaps they could be doing that much better.

对。

Right.

当然。

Absolutely.

自我觉察、处理个人叙事以及对‘我’的感知，就是我们所说的自我功能下的第一个柜子。

Self awareness and addressing one's personal narrative and a sense of I is what we called cupboard one under the function of self.

现在，那些听过第一、二、三集的人，当我提到‘第一个柜子’或‘自我的功能’时，他们会熟悉我所说的内容。

Now, those that listen to episodes one, two, or three, they'll be familiar with what I'm talking about when I say a cupboard, cupboard one function of self.

但为了确保大家在继续前进时能站在同一页面上，也许我们可以暂时回到心理健康地图上。

But just for sake of getting everybody on the same page as we move forward here, maybe we could just return to the map of mental health for a moment.

我们已经讨论过‘能动性’和‘感恩’作为动词状态。

We've talked about agency and gratitude as verb states.

你也在之前的节目中描述过这个关键且根本的概念——生成性驱动力。

And you also described in previous episodes this key really essential concept of this generative drive.

是的。

Yes.

所以，如果你能花几分钟为我们详细解释一下：能动性和感恩是什么，如何培养和表达它们，以及什么是生成性驱动力，之后我们再回到‘自我结构’下的十个探究柜子，这些柜子实际上代表了支撑这些简单却极其强大存在方式的支柱，而能动性和感恩正是从这些支柱中喷涌而出的核心概念。

So if you could just take a few minutes for us and really explain what agency and gratitude are, how one goes about building those up and expressing those, and what the generative drive is, then and we'll return to the 10 cupboards of inquiry under the structure of self and function of self, which really represent the pillars and all the stuff that geysers up into these simple, but extremely powerful concepts and ways of being, which are agency and gratitude.

是的，没错。

Yes, yes.

我特别喜欢你提到间歇泉这个形象，因为如果我们思考自我的结构——这是一个支柱，以及自我的功能——这是另一个支柱，在这些支柱之下，就是我们一直讨论的十个柜子，它们代表了我们探索的领域，因为它们是自我结构和功能的各个方面。

So I really liked when you brought the image of a geyser, right, to mind, because if we think about the structure of self, which is one pillar, and the function of self, which is another pillar, underneath those pillars, there are the 10 cupboards we've been talking about, and they represent the areas of inquiry for us because they're the aspects of the structure and function of self.

所以答案就在这里。

So that's where the answers are.

对吧？

Right?

答案就在这些支柱里。

The answers are in those pillars.

答案就在那十个柜子里。

The answers are in those 10 cupboards.

如果我们这样做，去那里寻找，尊重我们在那里发现的东西，我们就会比那股间歇泉更健康。

So if we're doing that, we're looking there, we're honoring what we find there, we're becoming healthier than that geyser.

对吧？

Right?

我想象它从两个支柱之间的空间涌出来。

I imagine it coming out, you know, like the space in between the pillars.

对吧？

Right?

它所提升的是，首先是赋权与谦逊。

And and what it is lifting up is, first, empowerment and humility.

但赋权与谦逊是品质。

But empowerment and humility are qualities.

这确实是我们的方法，以及我们运用它们的方式，它们的品质与潜力。

It's certainly the the way and the the way we're using them, their their qualities, their potential.

所以我拥有赋权，而不是被剥夺权力。

So I have empowerment as opposed to being disempowered.

对吧？

Right?

所以我拥有谦逊，而不是例如反应性的自大，甚至反应性的自我压迫。

So I have humility instead of, for example, a reactive grandiosity or even a reactive self oppression.

对吧？

Right?

所以我拥有赋能和谦逊这些品质，然后它们被付诸实践，对吧？

So I have these qualities of empowerment and humility, and then they become enacted, right?

它们由我们表达出来。

They become expressed by us.

我想象着，顶端是能动性，感恩之情如间歇泉般喷涌而出，且不断流动，对吧？

And I imagine riding on the top is the agency and the gratitude is at the top of the geyser, and it's moving, right?

它们是动词。

They're verbs.

我们随着生活的前行而不断前行。

We navigate life as life moves forward.

对吧？

Right?

我常常会想到像在奥运会雪橇项目中那样，坐在雪橇上，对吧？

I will often think like being on like the the luge, right, in the sea in the Olympics.

雪橇沿着蜿蜒的赛道滑下，这就像我们穿越人生的过程。

The bridge is going down the twisting path, and it's like, that's us moving through life.

对吧？

Right?

我们每个人都有不同的路径，但它们可以相互连接、交叉。

And we all have different pathways, but they can interconnect and they can cross.

但这就是正在发生的事。

But that's what's happening.

生活是一种主动的行为。

Living is an active thing.

对吧？

Right?

所以能动性和感恩是主动的行为。

So agency and gratitude are active things.

为什么？

Why?

因为它们是所有底层本质的终极体现。

Because they're the ultimate expression of all underneath of it of them.

那就是它去的地方。

That's where it goes.

如果支柱位置正确，间歇泉就能运作，赋权与谦逊便与我们同在。

If the pillars are in the right place, the geyser can function, the empowerment and humility are with us.

因此，我们通过清晰的视角与自己、他人和世界互动，同时深知我们能让世界变得更美好，并清楚自己在其中的角色。

So we're engaging with ourselves, with others, with the world through a lens of clarity and through a lens of knowing we can make the world a better place and knowing our role in it.

这非常、非常主动，它为我们带来了平静、满足和喜悦，正如你所描述的，在你独自做播客时，你会感受到那种平静、满足和喜悦。

That's very, very active, and then it brings to us the peace, the contentment, the delight that weaves in and out as as you describe that you will feel the peace, the contentment, the delight when you're doing the solo podcast.

对吧？

Right?

但你正在做一件非常、非常主动的事情。

But you you're doing something very, very active.

对吧？

Right?

这并不是一种被动的活动，对吧？在这样的活动中，你会感受到所有那些情绪，但这说得通。

That that's not it's not a passive endeavor, right, during which you feel all those things, but that makes sense.

对吧？

Right?

平静并不意味着虚无。

Peace doesn't mean nothingness.

对吧？

Right?

现在它可以了。

Now it can.

一个望着窗外自己种植的花园的人也能感受到这一点，但他们的内心同样充满生机。

Someone who's looking out the window with the garden they planted can feel that too, but but there's life going on in them also.

对吧？

Right?

他们正在沉思这个花园。

They're they're contemplating the garden.

他们知道这个花园是自己创造的。

They know that they made the garden.

所以这些都是主动的过程，因为生命本身就是一个主动的过程。

So these are all active processes because life is an active process.

然后我们最终进入一种向内审视的状态。

And then we end up in this place of looking inside of us.

我们内心的这些驱动力既是决定性的，也是被决定的。

These drives within us are both deterministic and determined.

对吧？

Right?

所以想想这是一个多么主动的过程：由于我们的基因，我们天然地倾向于某种方向，就像有些人天生更高或更矮，更有或更少运动天赋一样。

So think about how active a process that is where we have a natural bias one way or another because of our genetics, just like someone has a natural aptitude to be taller and someone shorter or to be more or less athletic.

对吧？

Right?

当基因结合在一起时，我们体内就蕴含着潜力。

We have potential within us when the genetics come together.

对吧？

Right?

而这可能会决定一系列参数。

And and that may determine some sort of set of parameters.

所以，也许那些没有天生运动天赋的人，比如我自己。

So so maybe someone who doesn't have the the blessings of being so athletic, perhaps myself.

对吧？

Right?

对吧？

Right?

我不可能成为世界上最好的运动员。

I I'm not gonna be the world's greatest athlete.

对吧？

Right?

但如果我努力，我完全可以变得更擅长运动，过去我也曾做到过。

But if I work hard, like, I could be a lot more athletic and have been at times.

对吧？

Right?

如果我不注意，我的运动能力可能会差很多。

And if I don't, I could be a lot less athletic.

对吧？

Right?

所以，我们体内存在一些受基因决定的潜力，但围绕它们有着广泛的变异范围。

So so there are potentials within us that get sort of genetically determined but have a wide array of of variants around them.

而我们的选择决定了我们处于这些变异中的哪个位置。

And then our choices determine where we are in that variants.

如果我不照顾好自己，我会处于运动能力的极低水平。

If I don't take care of myself, I will be on the very low end of the athletic spectrum.

如果我确实努力并培养自己，比如，我可以在自己的范围内达到更高的水平。

If I do and I cultivate myself, you know, I can be on a higher end for me.

但即便如此，这也比低水平好得多。

But still, that's a lot better than the lower end.

两者之间有着巨大的差别。

There's a very big difference.

我们的驱动力也是如此。

The same is true in our drives.

因此，我们越照顾自己，就越能强化生成性驱动力的主导地位，以及攻击性、主张性和主动性。

So the more we're taking care of ourselves, we're reinforcing the primacy of the generative drive, and then the aggression, assertion, proactive.

对吧？

Right?

我们内心的这种驱动力会得到最大程度的实现，但并非每个人都能达到极致。

That drive in us is realized as best we're gonna realize it, and not everyone's is gonna be off the chart.

对吧？

Right?

这没关系。

And that's okay.

对吧？

Right?

但这种驱动力能让一个人好好照顾自己，拥有一份自己喜欢并能胜任的工作，并改善家庭生活，无论我们能做什么。

But but that drive is in a place that lets that person take care of themselves, you know, have a a job they enjoy and can do well at and make their home life better, whatever it is that we can do.

我们变得更加果断了。

Like, we're more assertive.

我们更加投入了。

We're more engaged.

而这为我们带来了更多的愉悦。

And then that's bringing us more pleasure.

所以，愉悦驱动，再次强调，不是享乐主义的驱动力，而是追求我们真正喜欢的事物的驱动力——比如我们喜欢安全、喜欢无痛的状态，但也喜欢友谊、浪漫、性、美食。

So the pleasure drive, again, not a hedonistic drive, it's drive for things we enjoy, like we enjoy safety, we enjoy absence of pain, but we also enjoy friends and romance and sex and food.

这些都能带给我们满足感，而且我们也可以让它们处于一个健康的状态。

Like, these are things that bring us gratification, and we can have that in a healthy place too.

因此，攻击性、果断性、主动性驱动力不能过多，也不能过少；愉悦驱动力也是如此，只有两者平衡，我们才能与这些驱动力和谐共处。

So there's not too much, not too little of the aggression, assertion, proactive drive, not too much, not too little of the pleasure drive, and then we're in a place where we can meet where those drives are at.

如果我们的愉悦驱动力处于某种状态，我们就能与之相契合。

So if the pleasure drive is in a certain place in us, we can meet that.

对吧？

Right?

也许我们会因为做了好事、照顾好自己而让这种驱动力稍微提升一些。

And maybe we foster it moving a little higher up because we're doing good things and we're taking care of ourselves.

所以如果我们的情感关系状态更好，就能从中获得更多的愉悦。

So if our romance is in a better place, you know, then we can take more pleasure in our romance.

对吧？

Right?

如果我们身体更健康，就能更享受这种状态。

If our physical fitness is in a better place, we can enjoy that more.

对吧？

Right?

我们可以做更多事情。

We can do more things.

我们正在帮助这些驱动力达到最佳状态，以服务并支持我们试图优化和最大化的发展性驱动力，从而让那些支柱、那些柜子里的东西都处于良好状态。

So we are helping those drives to be in the optimal place to subserve the generative drive, which we are trying to optimize and maximize, and that puts us in the best place to have the things under those pillars, in those cupboards, in a good place.

而在这一喷涌之上，是赋能与谦逊，它们体现为能动性与感恩，让我们拥有更多平和、满足与喜悦的美好感受，而这又进一步强化了发展性驱动力。

And then on top of that geyser is the empowerment and the humility, and then that gets enacted as agency and gratitude, and we have more of the goodness of of peace and contentment and delight, and that reinforces the generative drive.

所以这就是正在发生的事。

So that's what's going on.

而且，当我阅读或聆听他人表达幸福时——无论是他们对幸福的理解、如何找到它、他们在追求什么，还是他们对幸福的哲学看法——这从未让我失望过，对吧？

And it has never failed me yet to read or listen to someone communicating happiness, either what they think it is, how they found it, what they're striving for, what they think it philosophically is, right?

所有这些，对吧？

It's all that, right?

它并不是一个简单的词，对吧？

And it's not as simple as a word, right?

因为幸福很复杂，我们也很复杂，但美妙之处在于，这种复杂性存在于我们内心，而理解自己、帮助自己并非遥不可及。当我们向上层迈进时，事情反而会变得更简单。

Because it's complex, we're complex, but the beauty of it all is the complexity is within us, but it's not out of our reach to understand ourselves better and help ourselves, and if we do that, as we move further up the hierarchy, it gets simpler.

以能动性和感恩作为行动方式来面对世界，这其实非常直接明了。

Approaching the world through agency and gratitude as verbs, and it's pretty straightforward.

这就是为什么这是衡量浪漫契合度的最佳标准。

That's why that's the best metric for romantic compatibility.

对吧？

Right?

并不是说一个人会演奏乐器，另一个人是数学家，他们就不兼容。

It's not this person plays a musical instrument, and that person's a mathematician, so they're not compatible.

就像不能因为一个人吹小号，另一个人吹单簧管，就假设他们一定兼容一样。

No more than one plays the trumpet, one plays the clarinet, and we assume they are compatible.

这些驱动力究竟在哪里？

Where are those drives at?

人们在一个健康的地方是否健康？

Are people healthy in a healthy place?

这样我们就能更好地照顾自己，以健康的方式与他人互动，理解谁是健康的互动对象，远离不健康的情境，从而在自身和周围建立健康。

We can then take the best care of ourselves, engage with others in a healthy way, understand who's a healthy other to engage with, right, get ourselves out of unhealthy situations, and then we're building health within ourselves and around ourselves.

这就是在不同层次的涌现中，事物变得更好的方式。

And that's how at the different levels of emergence, things get better.

如果我让自己更健康，你也让自己更健康，我们两个人作为一个整体也会更健康。

So if I make myself healthier and you make yourself healthier, we will be healthier as a group of two.

一直都是这样的。

That's always how that is.

如果我们作为两个人更健康了，我们就能作为更大群体的一部分变得更健康。

And if we're healthier as a group of two, we can be healthier as parts of larger groups.

对吧？

Right?

或者当群体本身不健康时，我们正在推动走向更高的健康水平。

Or where if the groups aren't healthy, we're pushing towards greater health.

对吧？

Right?

我们正在培育健康，这就是我们看到健康如何成长的方式，直到它甚至能在文化层面显现出来，那时我们更能照顾好自己。

We're engendering health, and that's how we see health grow until it can be manifest even on a cultural level where we're taking better care of ourselves.

我们变得不那么惩罚性了。

We're less punitive.

我们作为社会不再那么急躁地向前冲，不再践踏弱势群体。

We're less rushing forward as a society and trampling the vulnerable.

对吧？

Right?

我们意识到，哦，我也可能成为那个脆弱的人。

And we realize, oh, I could be the vulnerable.

对吧？

Right?

我关心他人，即使我不认识他们，因为我能理解并共情那种脆弱的感觉。

I care about other people even if I don't know them because I can understand and empathize with what it feels like to be vulnerable.

而且，我也可能属于那些脆弱的人。

And furthermore, I could be among the vulnerable.

因此，我们的文化行为会有所不同，而这正是我们在个人层面一直到文化层面所追寻的。

So we behave differently as a culture, and that's what we're searching for on an individual level all the way up to a cultural level.

我有几个问题，但首先我想强调一下你提到的关系结构、人际关系，正如第三集中所探讨的，你讲得非常清楚，这确实非常有道理：大多数人在寻找浪漫伴侣或判断现有关系是否可以改善时，关注的都是错误的方向，对吧？

I have several questions, but first I want to just highlight what you said about relational structure, relationships, and the fact that as was explored in episode three, and you made so clear, and it just makes so much sense, most of what people explore for when looking for a romantic partner or determining whether or not their existing romantic relationship could be better or not is focused on the wrong things, right?

这些非常表面化的观念，比如人们喜欢什么，甚至教育水平，其中一些确实重要，但那并不是当前的关键问题。

These very kind of superficial notions of what people enjoy and even level of education, some of which can really matter, but that's not the critical issue at hand.

真正重要的是两个人内心的‘地图’，以及他们表达创造驱动力、自主性和感恩的程度。

And that the maps that the two individuals have and the extent to which they are expressing their generative drive and agency and gratitude is far, far more important.

对于那些还没听过第三集、但对关系感兴趣的人——不仅仅是浪漫关系，还包括工作、家庭、自我以及友谊等各类关系——我强烈推荐你们去听一下那场对话，因为它在可操作的收获方面真的非常出色。

And so for those that haven't heard episode three and are interested in relationships, not just romantic relationships, but relationships of all kinds, work, family, to self, friendship, I highly, highly recommend listening to that conversation because it's truly spectacular in terms of its actionable takeaways.

我所说的可操作，指的是具体的行为，以及能够真正帮助人们的思维方式。

By actionable, I mean actions, of course, behaviors, and also modes of thinking that can really serve people.

我还想澄清一点，我相信当你提到‘等级’、‘向上提升等级’时，你指的是这里所描绘的内在地图中的等级，对吧？

I also just want to make one clarification that I believe that when you said hierarchy, you said move up the hierarchy, you were referring to the hierarchy within the map that's been laid out here, right?

而不是希望人们误以为我们在讨论某种外在的社会等级。

As opposed to, I don't want people to get mistakenly distracted by the possibility that we're talking about some sort of like external social hierarchy.

所以我只是想明确这一点。

So I just want to clarify that.

这其实是一个完美的切入点，让我们更深入、更详细地探讨这张地图，以及地图底层那些复杂而丰富的‘抽屉’。

And that's actually a perfect jumping off place for going into the map with a little bit more depth and detail and exploring these cupboards that reside at the lower levels of the map and that are quite complex.

好的。

Okay.

对于正在收听、但还没去获取我们在节目笔记中提供的PDF文件的听众，你们随时都可以去下载。

So for those of you listening who have not yet gone and accessed the PDF that we put in the show note captions, you can do that at any point.

但我们现在要讲的是位于这两大支柱——也就是‘自我的架构’与‘自我的机能’——下方的诸多内容。这些隐藏的‘储物柜’对我们所有人来说都极具探索价值，我们都可以打开它们审视内部、提出具体问题；正是这些储物柜里存放的内容，会像按配方组合后迸发的间歇泉一样，最终决定我们能否在人生中拥有并感受到足够的掌控感、谦卑心、自主能动性、感恩之心、平和感、满足感、喜悦，以及能创造价值的内驱力，也决定了这些正面感受的多寡。

But what we're talking about is a bunch of things down at the bottom under these two pillars, structure of self and function of self, these cupboards, excuse me, that are extremely valuable for any and all of us to look in and explore and ask specific questions because it's what resides within those cupboards that combine in a sort of recipe and then geyser up into whether or not and how much empowerment, humility, agency, gratitude, peace, contentment, delight, and generative drive we are able to exert and experience for ourselves in life.

那么请大家在脑海里想象这样一个画面，接下来我要说的模型，是直接借用了

So imagine in your minds, if you will, and here I'm borrowing directly from a picture model that Doctor.

康蒂医生在本系列录制前提供的图景：一座冰山，水面下藏着大量内容，只有很小一部分露出水面。

Conti provided before the filming of this series, which is an iceberg where below the surface of the water resides a bunch of stuff, and then a little bit is above the water.

或许你现在可以帮我们再回顾一下这个模型，花几分钟时间聊聊它。

And maybe you'll help us revisit that model now for a few moments.

但如果你此刻没法记住任何别的内容，请你一定要明白，大脑和思维的表层之下，有大量复杂的机制在运转。

But if you take nothing away at this moment, please understand that there's a lot of complex stuff going on underneath the surface of the brain and mind.

而这套图谱的一个核心特点是：尽管底层的运作极其复杂，但从这份复杂性中衍生出来的逻辑会变得越来越简单，尤其是当我们向生活中更健康、更高效的状态迈进时。

But a key feature of this map is that while it is very, very complex underneath, what emerges from that complexity gets simpler and simpler, especially as we move towards places of better health and more effectiveness in life.

所以能不能麻烦你再详细讲讲这套图谱？特别是这些底层支柱里的内容，那些复杂的机制，以及我们需要关注的要点。

So if you would, could you, you know, describe the map in a bit more detail, especially what's down there in these pillars, the complex stuff and stuff that we should be looking at.

之后我们再聊聊每个人都有的这些“暗格”，聊聊在常见的人生挑战下，我们都应该反问自己哪些问题，同时也会介绍一些非常普适且行之有效的方法，帮我们把状态调整得更好、心情变得更舒畅。

And then we'll touch on some of those cupboards that we all have and the sorts of questions that we should all be asking in the context of some common challenges, but also some very common and very effective paths to doing and feeling better.

是的，是的。

Yes, yes.

不，无意识心智才是应该开始的地方。

No, the unconscious mind is the place to start.

那是自我结构的最深层。

That's the deepest level of the structure of self.

所以，想象一下，你正坐在一台大小如房屋的生物超级计算机上，对吧？

So imagine sitting on top of a biological supercomputer the size of a house, right?

这正是我们体内正在发生的事。

That's what's going on inside of us.

对吧？

Right?

无意识心智就是这台生物超级计算机。

The unconscious mind is that biological supercomputer.

如果我们对自己感兴趣，就会对它内部正在发生的一切产生极大的好奇心。

And if we're interested in ourselves, right, we become very, very curious about what is going on in it.

而正是在这一点上，尽管它无法被我们直接触及，但可以通过其他方式接触到，比如我们之前提到的反思或治疗，当然还有其他方法，但它确实是可以被我们接触到的。

And that's where, even though it's not directly accessible to us, it can be accessible through other ways, such as we talked about reflection or therapy, and of course, there are other ways too, but it is accessible to us.

我们想知道它里面有什么，因为里面的内容对我们的意识思维有着极其强烈的影响。

And we want to know what is in it because what is in it has such a strong effect on what's going on in our conscious mind.

对吧？

Right?

那就是坐在这个像房子一样大的生物超级计算机顶端的人，或者我们之前用过的比喻——露出水面的冰山一角。

That's the person on top of the biological supercomputer the size of a house, or the the the image we've been using is the top of the iceberg that's coming out of the water.

所以我们可以从这两种角度来理解，但冰山内部的内容无疑对我们所意识到的意识思维有着巨大的影响。

So we can look at that either way, but what is in it has, of course, a huge effect on the part that we're aware of, our conscious mind.

我认为这里最好的类比是，实际上这是一个与物理医学领域非常契合的类比——那就是脓肿。

And and I think the best analogy here and it's actually, I think, quite an analogy that parallels very well is to an abscess in the field of physical medicine.

脓肿是一种被包裹起来的感染区域。

So an abscess is an area of walled off infection.

对吧？

Right?

所以想象一下，体内存在某种感染，比如通常发生在腹部。

So imagine that there's some infection, for example, it's often in the abdomen.

那里有一些感染，这种感染可能非常危险。

There's there's some infection, and that infection could be really dangerous.

对吧？

Right?

如果这种感染扩散开来，天啊，它可能会进入血液。

If that infection spread, boy, it could go to the blood.

这个人可能会因此丧命。

The the person could could die from that.

对吧？

Right?

所以身体会很好地将感染隔离起来。

So the body does a really good job of walling off that infection.

对吧？

Right?

这是一件好事。

And and that's a good thing.

对吧？

Right?

因为如果感染没有被隔离，就会带来巨大的风险。

Because if the infection weren't walled off, it poses huge risk.

但被隔离的感染并不代表健康状态。

But the walled off infection does not represent a condition of health.

所以有人体内有脓肿却不知道，这在医学中很常见，我们经常看到病人来到急诊室，他们低烧，已经持续低烧一段时间了，就是感觉不舒服，精力不足，睡不好，还经常出汗。

So someone who has an abscess in them and doesn't know it, this happens frequently in medicine, and we see people coming to emergency rooms and, you know, they have a low grade fever, and they've had a low grade fever for a while, and they just don't feel good, and they have low energy, and they're not sleeping well, and they find themselves sweating a lot.

这些持续的不适严重影响了生活质量，比如总是感觉不好，尽管患者并没有觉得特别生病。

There are pervasive experiences going on that are really detracting from life, like not feeling great all the time, even though the person doesn't feel really sick.

这有时就是为什么患者会拖延很久才寻求医疗帮助的原因。

That's sometimes why it takes a while for the person to come to medical attention.

所以，相比感染没有被隔离，这种情况更好，但它并不等同于健康。

So what's going on is better than not being walled off, but it is not synonymous with health.

那么在物理医学中会发生什么？

So what happens in physical medicine?

脓肿被发现后，外科医生会进去将其引流。

Abscess is identified, and then someone goes in, a surgeon goes in and drains it.

然后这个人就会好转。

And then the person is better.

对吧？

Right?

现在想想这个过程。

Now think about that process.

像手术这样的操作，并不是什么愉快的事。

Like surgery, surgery is not a fun thing.

对吧？

Right?

需要麻醉。

There's anesthesia.

还需要恢复。

There's recovery.

对吧？

Right?

但当手术能解决问题时，它是非常有效的。

But surgery is great when it cures the problem.

对吧？

Right?

所以并不是说，急诊科医生或全科医生发现有脓肿，然后转介给外科医生就完事了。

So it's not that, oh, the the the physician in the emergency room or the family practice doc who identifies that there's an abscess, refer to the surgeon.

一切都很顺利，病人也康复了。

Everything is great and happy and they're better.

不是这样的。

No.

他们必须去接受手术，而这不是一件容易的事。

They have to go have a surgery, and that's not an easy thing.

对吧？

Right?

但如果他们选择另一条路，感染实际上就消失了，因此他们不会再感受到那种持续在体内蔓延的症状，也不再面临感染从脓肿中扩散、危及生命的危险。

But if they go and do that on the other side, the infection actually is gone, so they do not have the symptoms that it was constantly spinning off inside of them, and they also don't have the risk that maybe that infection gets out of the abscess and their life is then at risk.

所以，这就像在探索潜意识，去发现我们内心那些可能像脓肿一样作祟的东西。

So the parallel is looking into the unconscious mind to what is inside of us that may be acting like that abscess.

尽管这是一个比喻，但它并非空谈。

Even though this is an analogy, it is not theoretical.

这种事情其实时时刻刻都在发生。

Like, this happens all the time.

那个人内心深处的脓肿，可能是青春期前后经历的欺凌。

And the abscess inside that person emotionally may be the bullying that went on right around the time of puberty.

对吧？

Right?

也可能是那个极其刻薄的老板，夺走了我那份好工作。

It may be that awful boss who was just so mean and, like, took that good job away from me.

对吧？

Right?

可能是这样。

It might be that.

可能是那次我不愿回想的袭击，但它真的一直伴随着我。

It might be, you know, that assault that I don't want to think about that's really still with me.

可能是那次我仍感到内疚的死亡事件。

It might be that death I still feel guilty about.

我不知道那到底是什么，对吧？

I don't know what it is, right?

但如果里面有个脓肿，我们就要理解它，然后解决它、治愈它，对吧？

But if there's an abscess in there, we want to understand it and then fix it, cure it, right?

而治疗过程就能做到这一点，这就是为什么有时候治疗会让人不舒服，比如哭泣和愤怒，这就像经历手术一样，对吧？

And that's what the therapy process can do, and that's why at times the therapy is unpleasant, you know, the crying and the anger, you know, that's the parallel of going through the surgery, right?

但在另一端，我们已经消散了里面积聚的能量。

But on the other side, we've dissipated the energy inside of it.

我们已经处理好了它。

Like, we've we've we've taken care of it.

因此，如果有什么真正困扰着我们，或者我们不清楚发生了什么，去探索潜意识就显得尤为重要，我们需要撒下探索之网，或许能引导我们找到问题根源，因为创伤非常普遍，而我们由于内疚和羞耻感，总是把创伤压在表面之下，结果它就像脓肿一样留在体内，并引发各种症状。

And and that's why it is so important to go into the unconscious mind if there are things that are really troubling us, or if we don't know what's going on, to cast the net of inquiry that may lead us there because trauma is so common, and we shove trauma underneath the surface because of the guilt and shame that it generates, and then it stays in us like an abscess and spins off symptoms.

这些症状可能表现为缺乏自信，可能表现为过度依赖物质，也可能表现为回避生活中的美好事物，但它们都是普遍存在且对我们有害的症状，而我们是可以理解并解决它们的。

They could be symptoms of diffidence, they could be symptoms of overusing a substance, they could be symptoms of avoiding good things in our life, but they're pervasive symptoms that are really harmful to us that we can understand and fix.

除了高质量的治疗，还有哪些其他方式可以接触潜意识？

In addition to quality therapy, what are some other ways to access the unconscious?

之前我们谈到过写日记，用书面或口头形式梳理自己的人生叙事，无论是独自进行，还是与值得信赖的人一起。

Earlier, we were talking about journaling and spelling out one's life narrative in written or in spoken form, either alone or with a trusted other.

我们假设某人要么负担不起治疗，要么还没准备好接受治疗。

Let's assume that somebody either can't afford or is just not at the place where they're willing to do therapy yet.

但他们完全接受了你所描述的脓肿模型或类比——我认为这是一个非常出色的比喻，一方面，你拥有二十多年临床经验，深知这种现象确实存在；另一方面，我想我们每个人在某种程度上都明白，内心有一些我们无法解释的东西。

But they fully adopt this abscess model or this abscess analogy that you described, which I think is an exceptional one because, A, you have the twenty plus years of clinical experience knowing this exists, but also I think we all, at some level, kind of understand that there's stuff happening within us that we can't explain.

作为一名神经科学家，我可以明确地说，你大脑中大部分神经机制，以及身体里相关的部分，我们根本无法直接触及。

And I, as a neuroscientist, can absolutely say that most of the neural machinery in your head and the parts of it that are in your body, we don't have access to it.

我们喜欢以为自己知道，但其实并不知道。

We love to think that we do, but we don't.

它只是在下面默默地运转着。

It's just clicking away under there.

假设有人想要取得一些进展，真正改善自己的心理健康，获得更多自主权和感恩之心，全面提升生活的各个方面和创造动力。

So let's say somebody wants to make some progress, really improve their level of mental health, obtain more agency and gratitude, improve all aspects of their life and the generative drive.

他们可以采取哪些方法来接触潜意识呢？

What are some ways that they can start to tap into the unconscious?

我猜，如果不去做治疗，那就会像你所说的那样，去探索其他一些途径，对吧？对。

And my guess is if it's not in therapy, it's going to be by looking in some of these other cupboards as you're describing Right, right.

是的，培养并接纳对自我的好奇心，对吧？

Yes, develop and embrace curiosity about yourself, right?

如果可能的话，让这种好奇心保持客观中立，对吧？

And if you can, go for that curiosity being dispassionate, right?

也就是说，你提到那些关于过去记忆和事件的文件，这非常好，对吧？

In the sense that, you know, you talk about these files you have with memories and events from your past, like that's so good, right?

因为你正在探索自己的人生，对吧？

Because you're exploring your life, right?

所以，如果有人想更好地了解自己，就为自己这么做吧。

So someone who wants to understand themselves better, do that for yourself.

去看看照片吧。

Go look at pictures.

和你生命不同阶段认识的人聊聊。

Talk to people you knew at different stages of life.

反思你在人生不同阶段的行为和内心感受。

Reflect upon how you behaved at different stages of life, what you felt inside.

以记忆为锚点，然后从那里进行延伸。

Anchor yourself to memories and then extrapolate from there.

对你自己产生好奇心。

Become curious about yourself.

如果你能保持超然的态度，这种状态有时被称为观察性自我，对吧？虽然还有其他说法，但这里的自我并不是负面意义上的自我。

And if you can be dispassionate, this idea that sometimes gets called an observing ego, right, there are other words to put to it, but it's it's not ego in a negative sense.

对吧？

Right?

这里的意思是，能够超脱自我，客观地审视自己，不带负面情绪地思考，这样我们往往能看清创伤，或者看到变化。

Here, it means the ability to stand outside of oneself and go, right, and to really think about oneself without the negative emotion, we're often able to either see the trauma, for example, or see the change.

比如，我为什么会从对自己感觉特别好的状态转变？

Like, why did I go from feeling really good about myself?

那时候我觉得自己无所不能。

And like, I felt like I could do anything.

但仅仅几年后，看看我，照片里的我一脸沮丧，你知道的，然后想想，是的，我当时喝得更多了。

And then just a couple years later, man, look at me, I'm mopey in the pictures and, you know, and then think, yeah, I was drinking more.

我不再照顾自己了。

I stopped taking care of myself.

这可是个很大的变化。

Like, that's a pretty big change.

对吧？

Right?

然后现在，我们正在引起注意。

And then so and so now, like, we're calling attention.

这种变化是什么？

What's that change?

很多时候，当事人其实知道。

And a lot of times the person knew it.

你知道，比如，我被拒绝了。

You know, like, oh, I got rejected.

我经历了那场糟糕的分手。

I had that terrible breakup.

对吧？

Right?

他们明明知道那是一场糟糕的分手，却一直把它压在心底。

And, like, they all they knew it was a terrible breakup, but they keep shoving it under the surface.

也许他们根本没意识到那是一场糟糕的分手。

Maybe they didn't know it was a terrible breakup.

也许他们搞不清楚那到底是什么。

Maybe they can't figure out what it is.

比如，这没关系。

Like, that's okay.

对吧？

Right?

即使他们意识到，你看。

Even if they recognize, look.

发生了一些变化。

There was a change.

那就会揭穿这个例子中很可能正在发生的事情。

Then that will put the lie to what in this example is likely going on.

所以这个人很可能以一种非常消极的方式看待自己，而且一直如此。

So that person likely frames themselves in a way that is very negative and always was true.

对吧？

Right?

所以我永远什么都做不成。

So so I can never achieve anything.

我从来感觉不到好。

I never feel good.

没人喜欢我。

No one likes me.

我找不到伴侣。

I can't find a partner.

无论我们对自己说什么，那个人一直都是这样。

Whatever it is we say to ourselves, the person it's always been that way.

对吧？

Right?

因为负面情绪太强烈了，而我们大脑的这部分并不在意时钟和日历，于是这个人又回去想，事情其实并不一直如此。

Because the negative emotion is so strong, and that part of our brain doesn't care about the clock and the calendar, and then the person goes back and thinks it was not always that way.

对吧？

Right?

这在治疗中经常出现。

And it comes to this a lot in therapy.

正如你所说，不一定非得在治疗中才这样。

It doesn't have to be, as you said, in therapy.

但说实话，我以前是个积极进取的人。

But, no, you know, I was a go getter.

对吧？

Right?

我又想到那个说我是个积极进取的人，我确实出去做了很多事情，这恰恰反驳了她说自己懒惰、无能等那些不真实的说法，但她却把这些当成了真理。

Again, I'm thinking of the person who said I was a go getter, and I went out there and did things, which put the lie to her saying that she was lazy, incapable, all those things that were not true, but she accepted as truth.

对吧？

Right?

所以从数学的角度来看，她需要回头去质疑那些被视为理所当然的前提。

So she needed from that mathematical perspective, like, to go back and question the givens.

对吧？

Right?