不同饮食如何影响你的健康 | 克里斯托弗·加德纳博士

欢迎来到Huberman实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学以及基于科学的日常生活工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院的神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天的嘉宾是Christopher Gardner博士。

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Doctor. Christopher Gardner. Doctor.

Christopher Gardner是斯坦福大学的医学教授兼营养研究主任。Gardner博士在过去二十五年里进行了开创性的饮食干预研究，专注于哪些饮食干预能减轻体重和炎症，并普遍改善身体健康。他以开展极其严格控制的营养研究而闻名，在这些研究中，不同组之间的热量、宏量营养素（即蛋白质、脂肪和碳水化合物）以及食物质量都相匹配，而不是像许多其他营养研究那样简单地将一种干预与所谓的标准美国饮食进行比较。因此，他的研究成果发表在《美国医学会杂志》和《新英格兰医学杂志》等知名期刊上。

Christopher Gardner is a professor of medicine and director of nutrition studies at Stanford University. Doctor. Gardner has conducted groundbreaking research on dietary interventions for over twenty five years, focusing on what dietary interventions reduce weight and inflammation and for generally improving physical health. He is known for doing extremely well controlled studies of nutrition where calories, macronutrients, so protein, fat, and carbohydrates, and food quality are matched between the different groups and not simply comparing one intervention to the so called standard American diet as so many other nutrition studies do. As such, his work has been published in prestigious journals, such as the Journal of the American Medical Association and the New England Journal of Medicine.

今天，我们讨论几个重要的营养争议，并审视科学实际告诉了我们什么。首先，我们探讨蛋白质需求。我们实际需要多少蛋白质，这些需求是否会根据活动水平、年龄和健康状况而变化。我应该说明，尽管我们一开始在这个问题上立场不同，但我们最终达成了一个我认为至少能让大多数人满意的答案。然后你可以根据自己独特的需求调整这个答案。

Today, we discuss several important nutritional controversies, and we examine what the science actually tells us. First, we explore protein requirements. How much protein we actually need and do those needs change based on activity levels, age, and health status. And I should say that even though we started out with rather discrepant stance on this, we converge on an answer that I think will be satisfying at least to most people. And then you can tailor that answer to your unique needs.

接着，我们审视素食、纯素食和杂食饮食之间关于最佳健康的持续辩论。我们深入探讨植物蛋白是否真的如常被声称的那样不如动物蛋白。我们还讨论了膳食纤维的作用，以及关于发酵食品及其强大抗炎作用的新兴科学。在今天的整个对话中，我们关注食物质量，而不仅仅是宏量营养素比例或热量，以及这些如何影响健康结果。正如你将听到的，Gardner博士。

We then examine the ongoing debate between vegetarian, vegan, and omnivore diets for optimal health. And we dive into whether plant proteins are truly inferior to animal proteins as is often claimed. We also discussed the role of fiber in the diet and the emerging science on fermented foods and their powerful anti inflammatory effects. Throughout today's conversation, we focus on food quality and not just macronutrient ratios or calories, and how those can impact health outcomes. As you'll hear Doctor.

Gardner和我在每一个营养建议上并不完全一致，特别是关于人们需要多少蛋白质，以及在动物蛋白与植物蛋白观点上的分歧。但到最后，我相信我们达成了一些共识，无论饮食偏好如何，每个人都应能从中受益。一如既往，我们为你提供基于科学的、可操作的信息，你可以应用到日常生活中。在开始之前，我想强调，这个播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究角色是分开的。然而，这是我向公众免费提供科学及科学相关工具信息的愿望和努力。

Gardner and I don't agree on every nutritional recommendation, particularly how much protein people need and the discrepancy in views about animal based proteins versus plant based proteins. But by the end, I do believe that we converge on themes that everyone regardless of their dietary preference ought to be able to benefit from. As always, we provide you with science based actionable information that you can apply to your daily life. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however, of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

秉承这一主题，本集节目包含赞助商。现在，开始我与Christopher Gardner博士的对话。Christopher Gardner教授，很高兴见到你并欢迎你来到这里。

In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my conversation with Doctor. Christopher Gardner. Professor Christopher Gardner. So nice to meet you and to have you here.

很高兴在斯坦福校园外与你交谈。

Happy to be here off Stanford campus talking to you.

没错。尽管我们俩都在那里待了很长时间，但那是个大地方，所以我们没有机会直接交流。但当然，我知道你是谁，并且非常熟悉你的许多工作，不过今天你会告诉我们更多。作为开场，我想知道，即使所有人类，我推测，都是同一物种，有没有可能我们中的一些人可能在一种饮食形式上茁壮成长，而另一些人可能在另一种饮食形式上茁壮成长？换句话说，我们如何证明谈论某个年龄层、活动水平等所谓的“最佳饮食”是合理的？

That's right. Even though we've both been there a very long time, it is a big place, and so we haven't had the chance to interact directly. But of course, I know who you are, and I'm very familiar with much of your work, but you'll tell us about more of it today. To kick things off, I want to know, is it possible that even though all human beings are, I presume, the same species, that some of us might thrive, perhaps, on one form of diet, and others might thrive, perhaps, on a different form of diet. In other words, how do we justify talking about the quote unquote best diet for a given age demographic, level of activity, etcetera?

如果看看社交媒体，或者甚至只是这个国家的营养史，人们几乎会不假思索地倾向于认为，也许我们都需要不同的东西，需要进行一些实验和探索。那么，我们需要不同的饮食，还是存在一种最佳饮食？

If one were to look at social media, or even just the history of nutrition in this country, one can almost reflexively lean on the idea that, you know, maybe we all need something different, and some experimentation and discovery is needed. So, do we need different diets, or is there a best diet?

所以，并不存在一种最佳饮食，我也不认为我们需要不同的饮食。我们只是具有惊人的适应力，可以应对各种极端情况。我在伯克利教授人类营养学课程时，第一堂课就会向学生们指出Tarahumara印第安人，他们是世界级的超级马拉松跑者，饮食主要是玉米和豆类，完全是碳水化合物。然后你可以看看阿拉斯加的因纽特人，几个世纪以来他们以鲸鱼、鲸脂、北极熊等为生。所以那完全是脂肪和完全是碳水化合物。

So, So there isn't one best diet, and I don't think we need different diets. We're just incredibly resilient, and we can do crazy wild things. So the way I start my human nutrition class at Berkeley with students is in the very first class, I point out the Tarahumara Indians, who are like world class ultra marathon runners, mostly corn and beans, like total carb. And then you can look at the Alaskan Inuits who for centuries lived on whale and blubber and polar bear and things like that. So that was like total fat and total carb.

他们确实很健康。真的没有糖尿病、心脏病和癌症，而他们吃的都是当地的传统饮食。迈克尔·波伦（《杂食者的困境》作者）对此有一句名言：如果你仔细观察世界各地，人类能在如此多样化的饮食中茁壮成长，这真是令人惊叹——但唯独有一种饮食行不通，那就是美式饮食，即标准美国饮食，因为它充满了加工包装食品。可悲的是，现在塔拉乌马拉印第安人也吃了很多垃圾食品。阿拉斯加人和因纽特人现在也有大量包装加工食品运进来，全世界似乎都在趋向于一种不健康的饮食方式，因为它方便、便宜、易得、味道令人上瘾，但也问题重重。

And they thrive. There's really no diabetes, no heart disease, no cancer, but eating all their local indigenous diets. Michael Pollan has a great quote on this, the author of Omnivore's Dilemma, and he says, If you really look around the world, it is amazing how much variety there is in a diet that people can thrive on, except the one that doesn't work is the American diet, the standard American diet, because it's full of processed packaged food. And the sad thing is that the Tarahumara Indians now eat a lot of crap. And the Alaskan people and the Inuits now have a lot of packaged processed food shipped in, and the world's all sort of centering on an unhealthy diet that is convenient and it's inexpensive and it's available and it's addictively tasty and it's problematic.

所以，不，不存在一种最好的饮食。人类的适应力真是惊人。我很乐意深入探讨这一点。

So no, there's not one best diet. It's incredible how resilient we are. So I'd love to get into that.

太好了。我们所说的饮食或营养确实涉及很多方面。你知道，有宏量营养素——蛋白质、脂肪和碳水化合物；有微量营养素；有热量多少；有食物来源；还有这种来源对环境的影响。审视这个问题可以从太多不同的角度入手。

Great. Well, there's so many facets to what we call diet or nutrition. You know, there's the macronutrients, protein, fats, and carbohydrates. The micronutrients, there's how many calories are in there, there's how it was sourced, there's how that sourcing impacts the environment. There are just so many lenses to look at this issue through.

我想知道，根据你刚才所说的，在食物通过不同文化传播到世界各地之前，人们的饮食主要围绕本地种植、狩猎和收获的东西。是的。那么，尽管人类已经遍布全球，回到最初的问题，是否可能存在一种所谓的“最佳饮食”？意思不是说我们能适应任何饮食，而是对某些人来说，高肉、高脂，甚至高蛋白（为了不那么极端，我们再加上高纤维、低淀粉）的饮食更好。而对于那些基因源自世界其他地区的人的后代，高淀粉、高纤维、低蛋白的饮食可能更合适。

I would like to know, because of what you just told us, that people prior to food making its way around the world from different cultures to other cultures, Food largely centered on what was grown and hunted and harvested locally. Yep. Is it possible that even though people have dispersed across the planet, sort of going back to this first question, that there is a quote unquote best diet, meaning not that we can adapt to any diet, but that for some of us, meat, high fat, maybe even high, let's say high protein, fiber, just to make it a little bit less extreme. High protein, high fiber, low starch is better. And then for people that are descendants of people with genes from another another part of the world, that high starch, high fiber, lower protein would be advisable.

对我来说，最好的回答方式是：经常有人来找我说，‘加德纳教授，我知道您推崇全食物植物性饮食，我尝试过纯素、素食，但出现了一些健康问题，后来我转向摄入更多脂肪和肉类。我几乎不好意思问您这个，因为我的医生也告诉我不该这样做，但我所有的健康问题都解决了，我现在状态非常好。’而另一群人则原本吃很多肉和脂肪，他们说‘我改吃纯素、低脂纯素后，所有健康问题都迎刃而解了。’

For me, the best way to answer that is people come up to me quite often and say something like, professor Gardner, I I know you're all into whole food plant based diets, and I I was vegan, I was vegetarian, I was trying that, and I had some health issues and I switched to be more fat and more meat. I'm almost embarrassed to be asking you this because my doctor told me I shouldn't do this either, but all my health issues have cleaned up. I'm looking really good. And I have a whole another cadre of folks who are eating a lot of meat and a lot of fat. And they said I went vegan, went low fat vegan, and all my health issues cleaned up.

‘我现在比之前好多了。’你很难直视一个采取截然不同饮食方式的人说‘你错了，你在撒谎’。我的意思是，显然这些人是在积极探索最适合自己的饮食，他们遵循了自以为正确的建议，但效果不佳。他们尝试了相反的方法，结果反而更好，他们正试图理性看待并处理这一点。所以我确信，不同的人适合不同的饮食。

And I'm much better now than I was before. And it's really hard to look someone in the eye who's doing something wildly different and say, Well, you're wrong, you're lying. I mean, clearly these people were really probing for the diet that was best for them and they were following some advice that they thought was good and they kept following it and it wasn't working. They tried something counter to that, and it worked better, and they're trying to rationalize that and deal with that. So I am sure that there are different diets for different people.

但归根结底，问题不在于饮食本身，而在于全世界都在趋向于那种包装加工食品。

But at the end of the day, it's just not the packaged processed food that the whole world is leaning towards.

我非常欣赏这个回答，因为作为一个尝试过多种饮食方式的人，谢天谢地，我从未有过严重的健康问题。但我知道什么饮食让我状态最佳。我是个杂食者——倒不是大家需要知道这个——但我喜欢吃肉、鱼、鸡肉、鸡蛋，大量的水果和蔬菜，淀粉摄入非常少。

I really appreciate that answer, because as somebody who's tried various diets, I never had any serious health issues, thank goodness. But I know what I thrive on. I'm an omnivore. Not that people need to know this, but I like to eat meat, fish, chicken, eggs, lots of fruits and vegetables. I eat very little starch.

我不会说自己是低碳水化合物饮食，因为我吃很多水果和蔬菜，只摄入有限量的淀粉。但尝试过很多很多不同的方式，包括很多年前尝试过的蛋奶素食，以及更极端的以肉类为主的生酮类饮食（也许生酮饮食不该这么吃，这个我们稍后讨论），我发现目前这种方式对我非常有效。所以我完全认同不同的人适合不同饮食的观点。但为什么会这样呢？

I wouldn't say I'm low carb because I eat a lot of fruits and vegetables and some limited amounts of starch. But having tried many, many different things, including vegetarian diet, lacto ovo vegetarian many year many years ago, and more extreme keto type diets that lean more heavily on meat as opposed to the way perhaps keto should be done, which we'll talk about. I've just found this works really well for me. So I fully embrace the idea that different people thrive on different diets. How is it that's true?

我的意思是，你认为这是因为基因吗？即我们继承了来自世界不同地区祖先的基因？不同的饮食方式在代际传递中能在多大程度上产生表观遗传效应？也许我适合这种饮食，而别人适合另一种，是因为他们祖先的来源地以及过去甚至三百年来的饮食传统。三百年对进化事件来说不算长，但有些变化确实可能在三百年的时间内发生。

Meaning, do you think this is because of genetic, you know, our inheritance of genes from people that, you know, came from different parts of the world? And to what extent can a different diet pass through generations have epigenetic effects? Maybe I thrive on that and somebody else thrives on something different because of where their ancestors are from, and what they've been eating for the last, maybe even three hundred years. That's not long for an evolutionary event to take place, but some things can happen in three hundred years.

所以真正唯一确立的经典例子是乳糖不耐症和乳糖酶——北欧人进化出了在成年后持续产生乳糖酶来分解乳糖分子的能力。事实上，世界上大多数人都是乳糖不耐受的。我们先来简单说明一下：当你是新生儿喝母乳时，你从母亲乳汁中获取乳糖。一旦断奶，世界上大多数人就会停止产生乳糖酶这种酶。

So really, the only classic example that's well established is lactose intolerance and lactase and Northern Europeans developing the ability to continue making the enzyme lactase to break apart the molecule lactose well into adult life. So the majority of the world is lactose intolerant. And if we could just do that for a minute. So when you're a newborn infant and you're having breast milk, you are getting lactose in your mom's milk. And then once you are weaned off the breast, most people in the world stop making lactase, that enzyme.

我相信每位听众都认识乳糖不耐受的人，他们要么购买无乳糖牛奶，要么因为肠胃问题而避免饮用牛奶和乳制品。这真的很奇妙：一些北欧人在某个时期因为拥有足够多的奶牛和乳制品并食用它们，从而进化出了在生命后期持续产生这种酶的能力，而地球上其他地区的人则没有。这并非绝对严格，实际上有些乳糖不耐受的人仍然能耐受少量牛奶，但也有很多人完全无法消化。说实话，这其实并不太合理。

And so I'm sure everybody listening to this knows someone who's lactose intolerant and either buys lactose milk or avoids milk and avoids dairy because of the GI disorders. So it really is fascinating that some Northern Europeans at some point had enough cows and dairy and ate it that they developed the ability to keep making this enzyme later in life, whereas the rest of the planet didn't. And it's not really hard cut and dry, there's actually people who are lactose intolerant who can still tolerate some milk. There's a lot of people who can't digest it. And to be honest, it doesn't really make much sense.

如果你观察地球上的哺乳动物，所有的哺乳动物，对吧？哺乳动物的乳腺组织、乳汁。它们都喝母亲的乳汁直到断奶开始吃食物。地球上没有其他哺乳动物会饮用另一种哺乳动物的乳汁来维持成年后的健康。所以人类是唯一这样做的物种。

If you look at mammals around the planet, all the mammals, right? Mammalian breast tissue, milk. So they're all drinking the mom's breast milk until they get weaned off for food. No other mammal on the planet drinks the breast milk of another mammal to thrive later in life. So humans are the only ones who do it.

主要就是牛奶。这确实有点怪异，但对很多人有效。这就是在进化过程中克服基因限制的经典案例。但我不了解太多类似的例子，所以无法提供比这更好的例证，来说明非洲人、亚洲人或斯堪的纳维亚人后裔是否还有其他进化差异。这是我唯一知道的例子，但其他可能性是存在的。

It's really mostly cow milk. And it's kind of friggin' bizarre, but it works for a lot of people. And so that is the classic example of overcoming genes over the course of evolution. But I don't know many like that, so I don't have a better example of can people who evolved from Africans versus Asians versus Scandinavians do anything different than that. That's the only example I've got, but could be possible.

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I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. Now I've spoken before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each and every night. Now, of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to ensure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct. And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop about one to three degrees.

而为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，你的体温实际上需要上升约1到3度。Eight Sleep会根据你的独特需求，自动整夜调节床铺温度。我觉得这非常实用，因为我喜欢在入睡时让床很凉爽，半夜更冷一些，醒来时则温暖一些。这样能让我获得最多的慢波睡眠和快速眼动睡眠。我知道这一点是因为Eight Sleep配有出色的睡眠追踪器，能告诉我睡眠质量以及整晚的睡眠类型。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees. Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs. Now I find that extremely useful because I like to make the bed really cool at the beginning of the night, even colder in the middle of the night and warm as I wake up. That's what gives me the most slow wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep. And I know that because Eight Sleep has a great sleep tracker that tells me how well I've slept and the types of sleep that I'm getting throughout the night.

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再次提醒，访问8sleep.com/huberman，购买Pod four Ultra最高可省350美元。今天的节目也由Mattina赞助。Mattina生产散装叶和即饮型马黛茶。我经常讨论马黛茶的好处，如调节血糖、高抗氧化剂含量以及改善消化的方式。它还可能具有神经保护作用。

Again, that's 8sleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off your Pod four Ultra. Today's episode is also brought to us by Mattina. Mattina makes loose leaf and ready to drink Yerba Mate. I've often discussed Yerba Mate's benefits such as regulating blood sugar, it's high antioxidant content, and the ways that it can improve digestion. It also may have possible neuroprotective effects.

正因为这些原因，以及在我看来马黛茶能提供最平稳持久的能量和专注力提升且无崩溃感，它长期以来一直是我首选的咖啡因来源。我也因为喜爱其口味而饮用马黛茶。尽管市场上有多种马黛茶饮品，但我最爱的绝对是Mattina。我很高兴分享Mattina最近推出了一系列新款风味的冷泡全零糖马黛茶。有覆盆子味、芒果味、薄荷味、柠檬味和桃子味，它们都非常出色。

It's for those reasons and the fact that Yerba Mate provides, in my opinion, the most even and steady rise in energy and focus with no crash, the Yerba Mate has long been my preferred source of caffeine. I also drink Yerba Mate because I love the taste. And while there are a lot of different Yerba Mate drinks out there, my absolute favorite is Mattina. I'm excited to share that Mattina has recently launched a series of new flavors of their cold brew all zero sugar Yerba Mate. There's a raspberry flavor, there's a mango flavor, there's a mint flavor, there's a lemon flavor, and a peach flavor, and they are absolutely incredible.

如果必须选一个最爱，可能是芒果或覆盆子味，但老实说，我无法只选一个。我基本上每天每种口味都会喝一瓶。再次强调，所有风味均采用最高品质的有机原料制成，且全部零糖。如果你想尝试Mattina，请访问drinkmattina.com/huberman。再次提醒，那是drinkmattina.com/huberman。

If I had to pick one that's my absolute favorite, it would probably be the mango or the raspberry, but frankly, I cannot pick just one. And I end up having basically one of each every single day. Again, all of these flavors are made with the highest quality ingredients, all organic, and again, all zero sugar. If you'd like to try Mattina, you can go to drinkmattina.com/huberman. Again, that's drinkmattina.com/huberman.

对于那些有小麦过敏或麸质反应的人，你有什么想说的？我想在这里特别小心地区分完全的小麦或麸质不耐受与只是吃了不舒服的人。我最近做了血液检测，结果显示我有轻微的小麦问题——我不说是过敏反应，因为他们没做过敏测试——但我体内有针对小麦和乳制品的抗体。确实，我不喜欢喝牛奶。

What do you say to all these people who have wheat allergies or gluten gluten reactions? And and I want to be really careful here and distinguish between full blown wheat or gluten intolerant versus people that just don't feel good when they do this. I I recently took a blood test that that revealed to me I have a mild wheat, I wouldn't say allergic reaction because they didn't do the allergy test, but I I have antibodies against it, and dairy. And it's true. I don't like drinking milk.

喝牛奶让我感觉难受，会让我整个人浮肿。但我喜欢某些酸面包，我知道很多酸面包里其实含有小麦。有些确实有，有些没有。而我吃帕尔玛干酪却感觉很好。

It makes me feel lousy. I get all, you know, and and puffy. And but I like some sourdough bread. I'm sure there's wheat in a lot of sourdough bread out there. Some yes, some And I can eat Parmesan cheese and feel fine.

但我知道有些人，即使没有被临床诊断为麸质不耐受，只要摄入任何麸质就会感觉极其糟糕。所以我想我们在这里试图探讨的是：一方面有科学依据（我们稍后会深入），另一方面有个人的体验。正如你指出的，人们无法忽视自己的亲身经历，而且或许也不应该忽视，对吧？

But I know people that even though they're not clinically diagnosed as gluten intolerant, they feel absolutely dreadful when they have any kind of gluten. So what we're trying to do here, I guess, is there's the science, which we'll get into, and then there's people's experience. Yeah. And as you pointed out, people can't get around their own experience, and they probably shouldn't. Right?

我觉得全世界都已经厌倦了别人告诉他们说他们的感受不是真实的。我认为这正是营养学领域很多困惑的根源所在。

I think the whole world is done listening to people tell them that their experience isn't real. Right. And that's what a lot of, I think, the confusion in the world of nutrition is about.

完全尊重这一点。让我先谈谈小麦的事情，但请允许我花一分钟回到乳糖不耐受的话题。我曾有机会与一位在加州生产生乳制品的人合作，他坚信这种生乳能治愈很多人的多种疾病。

Totally respect that. Let me do the weed thing, but let me go back to lactose intolerance for just a minute. So I had an opportunity to work with a guy who raises raw milk products in California. And he was convinced this raw milk would heal lots of people of lots of things.

定义一下生乳。就是未经巴氏杀菌的牛奶。

Define raw milk. No pasteurization.

是的，没有经过巴氏杀菌，这

Yeah. No pasteurization, which

简直就像直接从奶牛身上喝一样。

drives Might as just be drinking out of the utterly chill.

没错。这让一些健康专业人士非常抓狂，因为如果大规模操作且卫生条件不达标，可能会引发李斯特菌等其它问题。好吧，总之，他的一些说法听起来很夸张，其中很多——比如治愈癌症或某些慢性病——很难验证，可能需要等上几十年才能看到结果。

Yeah. Which drives some health professionals crazy because at a large scale, you could get listeria and other issues from this if if the whole thing wasn't properly hygienic. Okay. So anyway, some of his claims seemed outlandish, and quite a few of them would be hard to test like cancer or some chronic disease. You'd have to wait decades to see that happen.

但有一次他说，生乳还能治愈乳糖不耐受。我当时想，这听起来太疯狂了。我的意思是，这怎么可能呢？对我而言，作为一名营养干预专家——这算是我的超能力——

But at one point he said, and raw milk cures lactose intolerance. And I thought, that seems friggin' wild. So I mean, how would that happen? And for me, so I am a nutrition interventionist. That is like my superpower.

我喜欢设计试验来解答问题，但通常是在几个月或一年内，而不是四五十年的时间跨度。我想到，在你提出的所有主张中，乳糖不耐受的症状在几小时内就会出现。所以，如果你想验证这个方法是否有效，你立刻就能知道结果。于是我说，我愿意做这个试验。这简直是我进行过的最便宜的研究。

I love designing trials to answer questions, but usually in a couple months or a year, not in forty or fifty years. And I thought, of all the claims that you have, lactose intolerance sets on in hours. So if you wanted to know if this worked or not, you'd know right away. So I said, I will do this. This is like the most inexpensive study that I have ever run.

我打算找一些乳糖不耐受的人，给他们喝你的生牛奶、一些商业牛奶，以及作为额外对照的豆奶。我们只测试症状反应，实际上前期还做了些焦点小组讨论。我大部分研究都抱着'这可能会对你有帮助'的心态，但这次不同。在这个特定研究中，如果要进行全部三种牛奶测试，我知道肯定会让你难受——因为你本身就是乳糖不耐受。

I'm going to find people who are lactose intolerant, and I'm going to give them your raw milk, some commercial milk, and soy milk as sort of an extra control here. And all we're going test for is symptoms, and we actually had to have some focus groups up front. Most of my studies are done in a way that I think this is going to help you, but I'm not sure. In this particular study, if you're going to do all three harms, I know I'm going to hurt you. You're lactose intolerant.

我会要求你饮用牛奶。我需要你出现胃肠道不适，这样才能观察喝生牛奶时是否不会出现症状，并与不会引发症状的豆奶作对比。所以在焦点小组中我们询问：我通常不付费请人参与研究，而是提供全部研究结果，大家都很喜欢这种方式。但这次我说'我会让你难受，该付多少钱合适？'他们回答'是的'。

I'm going to ask you to drink cow's milk. I need you to have GI distress so that I can see if on the raw milk you don't, and compare to the soy milk you won't. So in our focus groups we asked, I usually don't pay people to be in our studies, I usually give them all the results of the studies and they like that. But I said, I'm gonna hurt you, so how much would I have to pay you? And they said, Yeah.

我追问'多少钱？'他们说'嗯...2.5美元应该可以，具体要看持续时间'。我们讨论了测试时长，这个研究设计很有意思。其实乳糖不耐受有个标准检测方法，是客观的氢呼气测试。

And I said, How much? And they said, Well, dollars $2.50 would be okay, depending on how long this thing is, and we sort of talked about the duration, it had an interesting design. So, there's a standard test for lactose intolerance. It's objective. It's a hydrogen breath test.

受试者需要快速喝下16盎司牛奶，之后每半小时对着管子呼气，收集气体送入呼气分析仪。仪器会检测氢气含量。如果乳糖没有被消化，就会进入结肠，肠道微生物会分解产氢，氢气被吸收后通过呼气排出。这是判断是否消化乳糖的客观检测方法。

And so you have to drink 16 ounces of milk in one setting fairly fast. And then you every half hour breathe into a tube, capture the gas and put it into this breathalyzer. And it'll tell you if there's hydrogen there. And if you have not digested the lactose, it'll go to your colon. The microbes will eat it up.

他们说'如果测试后每次饮奶量是4盎司，之后递增到8、12、16、20、24盎司，我们可以接受'。我说明'整个过程就一周，任何时刻症状难以忍受都可以停止。我不想让你们承受痛苦，不会因此取消参与资格。我真正好奇的是引发反应需要多大剂量'。

It'll generate hydrogen, it'll absorb that and you'll exhale it. So it's a very objective test of whether you are or aren't digesting your lactose. So they said, Yeah, we would do this if the dose after we did the test was four ounces of milk one day and then eight, twelve, sixteen, twenty, twenty four and I said it's only going to be a week and you can stop whenever the symptoms are intolerable. I don't want you to be in pain for this you're not kicked out of the study. I'm really curious what dose it would take for you to react to this.

而豆奶不会引起任何反应，因为不含乳糖。所以重点就在于比较商业牛奶和生牛奶的区别。研究第一阶段是招募受试者，我们明确要求：入选者必须氢呼气测试不合格且主诉有症状。

And on the soy milk, you won't react at all. There's no lactose. So just be this question between the cow milk, the commercial one and the raw milk. So the first part of this study was recruiting. And so we had to say to be eligible for this study, you have to fail the hydrogen breath test and you have to complain about symptoms.

也就是说既要客观检测不达标，又要有主观不适感。最终我们招募到16人，规模不大。所有人都完成了三种牛奶测试。有意思的是，自称乳糖不耐受的人中，50%呼气测试居然合格——他们喝完16盎司牛奶后氢气值并没有升高。

So you have to be intolerant and objectively, not subjectively, fail this thing. And so we ended up with 16 people in the study. It wasn't a big deal. They did all three arms. And fifty percent of the people who swore they were lactose intolerant failed the breath test, like their hydrogen didn't go up after they drank 16 ounces of milk.

但他们有人感到不舒服吗？

But did any of them feel lousy?

有。所以我不能看着他们说'抱歉，你不是乳糖不耐受，你在骗我'。我只能说'您不符合我们的测试标准，入选排除标准要求必须既有症状感受又有生理指标反应'。

Yes. And so I couldn't look at them and say, Sorry, you're not lactose intolerant. You're lying to me. I had to say, you have failed our test. Our inclusion exclusion criteria meant that you have to feel these symptoms and you have to have this response.

有趣的是，我们有亚裔、黑人、西班牙裔和白人。所有未通过测试的白种人都表示有症状，但氢呼气测试未通过，显示他们的氢含量飙升，这与乳糖不耐症通常出现在非白种人中的情况基本吻合。所以我逐渐引出这一点：他们有症状，他们抱怨，并将其归因于乳糖不耐症。但从技术上讲，他们并不是。是别的东西在困扰他们。

Interestingly, so we had Asian, Black, Hispanic, White. It was all the Caucasians that failed the test that said they had symptoms and didn't pass the hydrogen breath test and show that their hydrogen went shop, which pretty much parallels lactose intolerance is usually in non Caucasians. So I'm sort of leading up to this point of they had symptoms, they complained, they attributed it to lactose intolerance. But technically they weren't. Something else was bothering them.

也许是小肠细菌过度生长，或者是安慰剂效应。现在把这个逻辑应用到小麦上。

Maybe it was small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, placebo. Now flip that to wheat.

在你继续之前，因为我正好想问，生牛奶有帮助吗？哦。所以我只是必须

Before before you do, because I just ask I wanna know, did raw milk help? Oh. So I just have to

这不公平。没有？没有。一点都没有。所以他们对生牛奶和普通牛奶有完全相同的症状。

That's not fair. No? No. Not at all. So they had the same exact symptoms on the raw milk as the conventional.

抱歉，这就像是整个故事的 punchline（点睛之笔）——它一点帮助都没有。症状完全一样，但这确实是一个很容易进行明确研究的小测试。16个人可能看起来不多，但因为胃肠道疾病很容易检测，你要么有腹泻和胀气，要么没有。我对我们做的那个小小的论文、小小的研究感到非常非常自豪。尽管那家生牛奶公司至今还在他们的网站上声称能治愈乳糖不耐症。

Sorry that was like the punchline of the whole story is it didn't help at all. Was absolutely identical but it was a really easy test to study definitively. 16 people might not seem like a lot of people but because GI disorder is so easy to detect, you either had diarrhea and gas or not. It was very, very proud of that tiny little paper, little study we did. Although this raw milk company still on their website says they cure lactose intolerance.

所以这完全是另一个问题。我们别跑题了，还是回到小麦上，因为我对小麦和麸质不耐受领域的担忧是，是的，有如此多的人感到某种不适，这很惊人，如果他们接受测试，你可能会发现他们在临床上并非麸质不耐受，或者我确信这是一个连续谱。但我认为这实际上与我们的食物供应有关。历史上我们种植的许多食物，比如香蕉、玉米和小麦，都有多个品种或类型。而在美国，我们基本上只种植一种玉米和一种小麦，单一作物，大规模种植。

So this is a different issue altogether. So let's not go there, let's flip that to wheat because so my concern in the world of wheat and gluten intolerance is, yeah, it's amazing how many people feel some distress, and if they were tested you might find out that they're not clinically gluten intolerant, or I'm sure that's a continuum. But I think this actually has to do with our food supply. So in a lot of foods that we grow, historically, were multiple brands of or types of bananas and corn and wheat, etc. And in The US, we pretty much grow one kind of corn and one kind of wheat, monocropping, massive amounts.

尤其是美国人，在世界各地人们食用的所有谷物中，美国人吃的是小麦。我实际上有一次必须写一篇论文，我们试图确定蛋白质来自不同来源的比例，多少来自肉类，多少来自乳制品，多少来自谷物。我非常有兴趣地看到美国农业部的数据库说，这是我们来自谷物的蛋白质价值。而所谓谷物，我们指的是小麦、燕麦、大米、藜麦等一切，但有一个小脚注说，因为美国人消费的谷物中90%是小麦，我们基本上只使用小麦的价值，没有使用其他谷物的价值。我想，天啊，考虑到还有大米、燕麦和其他一切，美国人吃的谷物中90%是小麦，但想想看，百吉饼、糕点、早餐吐司、早餐。

Americans in particular, of all the grains that people eat around the world, Americans eat wheat. I actually had to do a paper one time where we're sort of trying to determine how much protein came from different sources, how much from meat, how much from dairy, how much from grains. And I was very intrigued to see that this USDA database said, here's our value of protein from grains. And by grains, we mean wheat and oats and rice and quinoa and everything with a little footnote that said because 90% of the grains Americans eat is wheat, we basically just use the wheat value for this and we didn't use the others. And I thought, oh my god, with rice and oats and everything else out there, 90% of the grains Americans eat is wheat and but think about it, bagels, pastry, breakfast toast, breakfast.

甚至披萨饼底。

Even pizza crust.

披萨饼底。我们消耗了数量惊人的小麦。所以我最喜欢的一个图表（抱歉，也许我们稍后会深入讨论）是查看美国人吃的碳水化合物、脂肪和蛋白质的类型。如果你稍后想了解，我有更多细节，美国人摄入的碳水化合物中，50%是碳水化合物（此处意指总碳水？需结合上下文，可能指结构），40%是劣质碳水，即添加糖和精制谷物（ mostly 精制小麦），10%是健康碳水。因此，我认为美国人正在吃的这些东西，以及我认为的麸质不耐受，与小麦作为如此主导的谷物来源有关，即使它本不必如此，而且小麦的品种非常单一。

Pizza crust. We eat an insane amount of wheat. So one of my favorite graphics, and sorry, maybe we'll get into this later, of looking at the types of carbs, fats, and proteins that people in The US eat. And I'll have more details if you want to do this later, 50% of what Americans eat for carbs is carbs, and 40% is crappy carbs, added sugar, and refined grains, which is mostly refined wheat, and 10% is healthy carbs. And so I think what Americans are eating, and I think the gluten intolerance has to do with wheat being such a predominant grain source when it doesn't need to be, and very little variety in the wheat.

我知道实际上有一些人正试图重新引入一些传统版本的不同小麦谷物，卡姆小麦（kamut）、荞麦（buckwheat），还有哪些？法罗小麦（farro）和完整小麦粒（wheat berries）。如果你稍后想了解，我其实会做一道非常棒的小麦粒沙拉。但是，就我们正在吃的所有这些精制小麦而言，正如你所说，我认为，天啊，现在有这么多人出现麸质不耐受，这难道不令人惊讶吗？到底是怎么回事？

I know there's actually some folks out there that are trying to bring back sort of some heritage versions of different wheat grains, camet and buckwheat and what are some of the other ones? Faroe and wheat berries. I actually make a kick ass wheat berry salad if you wanna get into that later. But of all this refined wheat that we're eating, to your point, I I think, god, isn't that amazing that so many people are now coming up with gluten intolerance? What is going on?

我认为这是因为我们吃了太多小麦，太多精制小麦，而且基本上只有一种。我听说过——不知道你是否有这种经历——有欧洲人来跟我说，他们在欧洲吃很多面包都没事，但来到这里后就好像对麸质不耐受了。然后他们回到欧洲又能吃面包了。这个我不太懂，我不是食品科学家，但我觉得这是原因之一。

I think it's because we eat so much wheat, so much refined wheat, and it's really just one kind. I have heard I don't know if you've had this experience. I've had Europeans come and say, you know, I ate a lot of bread in Europe and I come here and I I'm like gluten intolerant. And then I go back to Europe and I I can have bread again. And I I I don't know this, so I'm not a food scientist, but I think that's part of it.

是的，非常有趣。我知道很多听众对这个问题非常好奇——真正的食物过敏与临床诊断的差异，以及仅仅是食物带来的负面体验。那么到底有多少人实际上对麸质不耐受？你听说过乳糜泻。我的意思是，人们现在也知道这些名称了，所以他们会随口说出来，不管是否真的患有这些病症。

Yeah. My very interesting, and I know a lot of people listening are are extremely curious about this issue of real versus not clinically diagnosed food allergies, but just negative experiences with food. So how many people are actually gluten intolerant? You hear about celiac disease. Mean, people will also now know what the names of these things, so they just kind of throw them out there, whether or they have them or not.

你认为实际上有多少人受小麦不耐受或小麦敏感困扰？看起来有数百万人。

And how many people do you think actually struggle with a wheat intolerance, like a wheat sensitivity? Seems like there's millions and millions of people.

是的，这不是我的专业领域，我无法有效谈论这一点。但我知道在我教的基础营养课上，我查看过一项关于乳糜泻的调查和检测。甚至有一半患有完全乳糜泻的人并不知道自己患病，仍在食用小麦。

Yeah. Not my expertise. Don't really can't speak to this effectively. Do know that for a basic nutrition class that I teach, I was looking at a survey of celiac disease and testing people for it. And even like half the population with full blown celiac disease didn't know they had it, and were consuming wheat.

所以即使你患有此病，反应程度也有差异。有些人可能只是觉得'哦，我的胃在咕咕叫'，并不太在意。而有些人虽然没有完全乳糜泻，但有些麸质不耐受，少量就会感到不适。所以即使在这方面，也存在一些难以解释的弹性空间，你无法直视某人说'抱歉，我诊断你没有这个问题'。

And so even if you have it, there's a range of response. You could have and just think, oh, my stomach's grumbling, doesn't bother me that much. Whereas you have some people who don't have full blown celiac and they have some gluten intolerance and a small amount bothers them. So even in there, there's some wiggle room that's hard to explain where you can't look somebody in the eye and say, Sorry, I've diagnosed you. You don't have this.

因此，让人们承认并重视自己的感受，并进一步探究，确实非常重要。

So it is really important for people to acknowledge and own what they feel, and to look into it.

我们来谈谈加工食品。如今这受到了很多关注，我认为我们需要解析加工食品的具体含义。我就直接问了：所谓的食品添加剂，比如色素、粘合剂，以及加工食品中的其他成分。我们应该讨论这个。

Let's talk about processed foods. That gets a lot of attention nowadays, and there, I think we need to parse what we mean by processed foods. I'll just ask this in a very direct way. There are the so called food additives, the dyes, the binders, the other things that are in processed foods. We should talk about that.

还有热量密度与宏量和微量营养素相对的问题，对吧？很多热量，但营养不多，可以这么说。当然。然后可能还有关于加工食品是什么和不是什么的另外10个方面，比如往往纤维含量低。例如，高热量、低纤维。

There's also the issue of caloric density relative to macro and micronutrients, right? A lot of calories, but not a lot of nutrition, so to speak. Sure. And then there are probably 10 other things about what processed food is and what it isn't, like tends to be low fiber. High calorie, low fiber, for instance.

那么我们从这些食品添加剂开始吧。这在媒体空间现在非常热门，而且有争议。色素，比如刚刚又禁了一种红色40号色素，我想是它。但事实上我记不清是哪种，这就说明有很多种。这些色素怎么样？

So let's start with these food additives. This is very much in the in the media space now, and it's controversial. The dyes, like, just banned another red dye number 40, I think it was. But the fact I can't remember which one just tells you that there are a lot of them. What about these dyes?

这些色素有多糟糕？那是基于一项大鼠或啮齿动物研究。作为花了大量时间研究营养学的人，食品色素让你有多担忧？

How bad are these dyes? That was on the basis of a rat or or rodent study rather. How much does do food dyes concern you as somebody who spent so much time in this studying this stuff? Nutrition.

不要让我比包装加工食品中的其他任何东西更担心，部分原因是那些几乎无法研究。所以在我的世界里，如果有人说什么东西是健康隐患或健康益处，我必须思考我该如何研究它？结果是什么？所以我真正关心的是暴露量是什么，结果是什么？我能获得资金来做这个研究吗？

Don't concern me more than any of the other things that are in the packaged processed foods and partly because those are almost impossible to study. So in my world, if somebody says this thing is a concern, a health concern or health benefit, I have to think how would I study that? And what is the outcome? So really my world is what is the exposure and what is the outcome? Can I get funded to do that?

如果结果是心脏病、癌症或糖尿病，我立刻就会放弃。我不能等到有人死亡或住院。那样我将无法发表论文，也无法保住我在斯坦福的工作——我必须更快地发表成果。我的职业生涯大部分都以心脏代谢为导向。所以我可以在几周内改变人的血液胆固醇、血糖、炎症标志物、胰岛素水平，有时人们会说，天啊，你为什么不做几年的研究？

And if the outcome is heart disease or cancer or diabetes, I immediately write it off. I can't wait till somebody dies, or goes to the hospital. I won't be able to publish my paper and I won't be able to keep my job at Stanford I have to publish quicker. Most of my career has been very cardiometabolic oriented. So I can move somebody's blood cholesterol, blood glucose, inflammatory markers, insulin in weeks, and sometimes say, Oh my God, how come you didn't do this for years?

嗯，大部分效果在前两周就发生了。我做了八周，或者做了六个月，但说实话，如果是心脏代谢风险因素，效果在几周内就趋于平稳了。所以如果你想问我染料有什么作用，我必须随机分配人群来获得暴露量或不暴露。也就是同样的食物，有染料或没有染料，然后我必须有一个结果指标。而实际上没有多少结果指标，你的胆固醇不会变化。

Well, most of the effect happened in the first two weeks. I did it for eight weeks, or I did it for six months, but really, the effect plateaued in weeks if it was the cardiometabolic risk factor here. So if you want to ask me what a dye does, I'd have to randomize people to sort of get the exposure or not. So the same food with or without the dye, and I would have to have an outcome. And there's really not many outcomes, and your cholesterol wouldn't move.

你的血糖不会变化。如果除了染料之外其他都一样，那些指标就不会变动。所以思路是你给老鼠大剂量服用，看它们是否得癌症。这在代谢上讲得通，增加了这是一种致癌物的可能性。但真的很难测试，想想你刚才说你无法跟踪有多少红色染料、蓝色染料或黄色染料，再加上乳化剂、胶凝剂、着色剂和抗结剂或上光剂，有一长串清单。

Your blood glucose wouldn't move. If it was the same for everything except the dye, those measures would not move. So the idea is you give it to a rat in a huge dose, and you see if they get cancer. And it makes metabolic sense that creates a plausibility that this is a carcinogen. But it's really hard to test and think of you just said you couldn't keep track of how many red dyes there were, or blue dyes, or yellow dyes, combined with emulsifiers and gelling agents and colorants and anti or glazing agents, there's a list.

所以这个由巴西的Carlos Montero提出的Nova分类就像是超加工食品领域的热门话题。过去十年来，如果你留意，每个月都有论文讨论超加工食品，如果你看那些论文，就是关于Nova分类的。有趣的是，为了澄清这一点——如果这太深入我们可以打住——但Nova分类对营养成分是中立的。他不在乎里面有多少脂肪、胆固醇或纤维。他提出这个的整个观点是，还有超出这些的东西存在。

So this Nova classification put together by Carlos Montero from Brazil is like the hot topic in the world of ultra processed food. So for the last decade, if you will look, papers coming out every month, talking about ultra processed and if you look at that paper, it's the Nova classification. So an interesting thing, just to make this clear, and we can stop if this is too far down the rabbit hole, but the Nova classification is agnostic to nutrition. He doesn't care how much fat or cholesterol or fiber is in there. His whole point in making this was there's something beyond that.

我知道我们也担心缺乏纤维、过多饱和脂肪等等。但是着色剂、调味剂、胶凝剂等等，难道没有一些独立于所有这些的因素吗？他在分析中说，我在研究的数据中解析出，这些东西对所有其他因素有附加效应。他为此提出了重要论证，人们一直在发表相关论文。美国心脏协会对此有科学建议，我见过那个表格，就在我们的建议里。

I know we're worried about lack of fiber, too much saturated fat, something else. But isn't there something to the colorants and the flavorants and the gelling agents, etcetera, that could be separate from all this? And he in his analyses said, I I parse that out in the data that I'm looking at, that has an additive effect to all these other things. And he's made a big case for it, and people are publishing papers on it all the time. The American Heart Association has a scientific advisory on this, and I've seen the table, it's in our advisory.

这个列表中有150种不同的分子，分属不同类别。如果你浏览整个列表，可能会有点震惊。首先，姜黄也在着色剂列表里。所以从技术上讲，姜黄可能让你进入超加工类别。但姜黄富含姜黄素，人们对姜黄可能的健康益处非常兴奋。

There's 150 different molecules in this list that come into the different categories. And if you look through the whole list, would be a little shocked. So for one thing, turmeric is in the list of colorants. So technically turmeric could move you into the ultra processed category. But turmeric is full of curcumin and people are really excited about the possible health benefits of turmeric.

果胶也在里面。人们多年来用果胶制作果酱、果冻等东西。这里面还有一些可怕的名字，你甚至都念不出来，我在食品中找过，在人们实际吃的真实食品中找不到很多名字可怕的东西。总之，这个列表里有150种化学物质。这真的很直观地吸引人。

Pectin is in there. People have used pectin for years to make jams and jellies and things like that. And there's some horrific names that you can't even pronounce in this thing, which I've looked for in foods and I can't find many of the horrifically named things in any real foods that people eat. Anyway, there's 150 chemicals in this list. And it's really intuitively appealing.

就像肯定有超出这些营养素的东西。天啊，食品行业在这方面失控了。如果我们再引入一个术语，就是GRAS，公认安全。几十年前，FDA说，哇，食品行业往食品里放了很多这些东西。要做适当的测试看是否对人类有害真的不可行。

It's like there must be something beyond just these nutrients. Oh my god, the food industry is out of whack here. If we could put it pull in one other term, it's GRAS, generally recognized as safe. And so decades and decades ago, the FDA said, wow, there's a lot of these things that the food industry is putting in foods. To do an appropriate test to see if this would harm humans is really not feasible.

另外，在我的领域，我不能真的做会伤害人的研究，我需要你签字，你和你的团队，我要随机分配看我先伤害谁。一旦我知道伤害了谁，我就知道是否需要从食品中移除这个。所以他们会在老鼠身上做，在培养皿里做，看是否合理。曾经有800种GRAS物品，我认为现在已经增长到1万种。食品行业可以往食品里添加一大堆成分，因为GRAS这种免责条款，这肯定是有问题的。

Plus, in my world, I can't really do studies where I'm gonna harm people, but I I need you to sign up and your staff and I'm gonna randomize you to see who I hurt first. And once I know who I hurt, I'll know if I need to remove this from the food. So they'll do it in mice, they'll do it in rats, so they'll do it in a petri dish to see if it's plausible. At one point, there were 800 of these grass items, and I think it's grown to 10,000. There's a whole bunch of ingredients that the food industry can put into foods because of this grass sort of byline this option that's certainly problematic.

所以我们有NOVA列出的这些添加剂清单。称之为化妆品添加剂。让我们暂停一下，想想这个名字。化妆品意味着它是为了让食物看起来更好。如果你要去货架上购买，我的意思是，稍微想一下乳化剂。

So we have the NOVA list of these additives. Calls them cosmetic additives. So let's pause just for a minute to think of that name. So the cosmetic means it's to make the food look good. If you're gonna go buy it on the shelf, I mean, think just for a minute of an emulsifier.

如果你去买东西，发现它在货架上分层了，你会想，哇，我真的不想要这个。看起来一半是这个一半是那个。比如说沙拉酱。我希望沙拉酱看起来是均匀的，就像有人摇匀过一样，我不想买那些需要自己调配的部分来拌沙拉。我想要直接使用沙拉酱。

If you went to buy something and it was separated on the shelf and thought, wow, I don't really want that. It looks like it's half this and half the other thing. Let's say it was a salad dressing. I would want the salad dressing to look all homogenized like somebody shook it up and I don't wanna buy the I don't wanna put the parts on my salad. I wanna put the salad dressing.

所以化妆品添加剂是为了让它看起来更好。这就是为什么我们有染料。哦，我觉得我不想买那个灰色的东西，但我会买红色或黄色或任何颜色的。所以这些不同的添加剂加入是为了让它看起来更吸引人，或者感觉更吸引人，或者闻起来更吸引人，而不仅仅是食物。所以这确实说明我们已经走得太远了。

So the cosmetic additives are to make it look good. And that's why we have dyes. Oh, I don't think I want to buy that gray thing, but I would buy the red or the yellow or the whatever color it is. So those different additives are going in to make it look more appealing or feel more appealing or smell more appealing instead of just being food. So it does make sense that this is sort of we've gone too far.

我们有一个不可思议的食品系统，为很多人提供廉价且随时可得的食物，一天24小时，一周7天。而我们只是走得太远了。它太容易获得了。太便宜了。在杂货店的货架上太稳定了，以至于三个月后，连虫子都没有吃它。

We have this incredible food system that makes inexpensive food very available for a lot of people 20 fourseven. And we just went too far. It's too available. It's too inexpensive. It's too stable on the grocery shelf place there so that like three months from now, no bugs have eaten it.

它还没有变质。从经济角度来说，这难道不好吗？但它没有变质，但难道不有点可怕吗，连虫子甚至都不想吃了，因为它们能察觉到里面没有营养。所以，是的，加工食品的问题非常有趣，小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪着手处理这件事，我们很多人都很兴奋，有人愿意在这里采取坚定的立场，因为它已经失衡了。

It hasn't gone bad. Isn't that good economically that it hasn't gone bad, but isn't it a little scary that the bugs don't even want to eat it because they can tell there's no nutrition in here. So yeah the processed food issue is very interesting it's fasting that RFK Jr. To handle this and a lot of us are really excited that somebody would like to take a real firm stance here because it is out of whack.

这非常有信息量，我为此感谢几个原因。其中一个我特别想强调的是，你多次提到要进行适当的研究，需要一次只操纵一个变量。你根本无法进行人们希望进行的那种研究，即同时操纵十种、二十种、四十种、上百种染料和颜色的变量，并在合理的时间内完成。正如你提到的，要么人们都会死掉，要么政府不会再为任何目的提供资金，如果一项接一项这样的研究完成后。这太昂贵，太耗时了。

That's super informative, and I appreciate it for several reasons. One that I'd like to highlight in particular is how now several times you've described that to do a proper study, you need to manipulate variables one at a time. You just can't do the sorts of studies that one would like to do, where you manipulate ten, twenty, forty, hundred variables of dyes and colors and in people and and do that in a reasonable amount of time. As you mentioned, either people would all be dead or there'd be no more funding for the government for any purpose if for a study after a study like that was done. It's just too expensive, too time consuming.

另一件事是，鉴于你刚才告诉我们的关于这些添加剂的情况，难道最合理的做法不就是直接全部禁止它们吗？

The other thing is, given what you just told us about these additives, wouldn't it just make the most sense to just ban them all?

是的，确实如此。那将会清除目前杂货店里60%的商品。如果有人去为家人购买食物，而60%的食物都不见了，而我们又没有用更营养、但符合他们预算且容易获得的食物来替代，那将是犯罪，坦白说。这就是为什么健康界正在努力想办法如何应对这个问题。

Yep. It sure would. And that would wipe out 60% of what's in a grocery store right now. And if somebody went in to buy food for their family and 60% of the food was gone, and we hadn't replaced it with food that is more nutritious, but meets their budget and is accessible, that would be criminal, to be perfectly honest. And that's why the health community is trying to figure out how to react to this.

所以这部分是，我就举几个例子，属于这些超加工食品范畴的东西。实际上有很多全麦面包、酸奶、沙拉酱和番茄酱之类的东西。想象一个家庭非常便宜快捷的一餐，父母打三份工，努力维持生计。当然，如果他们能在家种菜、整天从头做饭就好了，但他们不能，所以他们回家，煮一些意大利面，加热一些红番茄酱，浇在上面。比，比如说，快餐什么的更有营养。

So part of this is, I'll just take an example, several examples of things that fall into the line of these ultra processed foods. There's actually quite a few whole wheat breads, yogurts, salad dressings, and things like tomato sauces. So picture a very inexpensive quick meal for a family where the parents have three jobs, they're trying to make ends meet. Sure, it'd be great if they could be home growing their garden and scratch cooking all day, but they can't, so they come home, they cook some pasta, they heat up some red tomato sauce, they pour it on top. More nutritious than, let's say, a fast food something or other.

所以如果你拿走那个番茄酱，他们快速拌个小沙拉，孩子们不想吃那些平淡的生蔬菜。他们想要一些沙拉酱。你买了一些沙拉酱。早餐时，他们打算吃些酸奶或全麦面包。所以他们要做些吐司，放些牛油果在上面，吃牛油果吐司，而且据说那是全麦面包。

So if you take that tomato sauce away and they whip together a little salad, and the kids don't wanna eat the raw vegetables that are just plain. They want some salad dressing on it. You picked up some salad dressing. And for breakfast, they were gonna have some yogurt or whole wheat bread. So they're gonna make some toast and put some avocado on it and have some avocado toast and it was said whole wheat bread.

这四样东西都可能符合超加工食品的标准。所以你把它们都拿掉。他们不能吃沙拉，不能吃意大利面，不能吃酸奶。

All four of those things could have met the criteria for ultra processed food. So you take those off. They can't have the salad. They can't have the pasta. They can't have the yogurt.

他们也不能吃牛油果吐司，因为你把这些都拿走了。除非我们看到这种情况并说，是的，我们知道这些应该被没有化妆品添加剂、更有营养的食物替代。但在我们达到那个程度之前，你不能全部取消它们。那太残忍了。

And they can't have the avocado toast because you took those all away. Unless we had seen that and said, yes, we know these should be replaced with more nutritious food that don't have the cosmetic additives. And until we get to that place, you can't get rid of them all. That's just cruel.

是的。这是一个既令人难过但又很重要的例子，说明了人们在如何养家糊口方面面临的挑战。同时，我们也可以提出论点：欧洲人也有家庭，他们工作非常努力。他们的超市里有很多超加工食品和加工食品，但也有很多水果蔬菜，而且正如我们之前谈到的，可能谷物种类也更丰富等等。

Yeah. No, it's a it's a wonderful sad, but important, excuse me, example of the challenges that people face in terms of how to feed a family. And at the same time, we could wage the argument that people in Europe, you know, have families. They work very hard. And their grocery stores include a lot of ultra processed foods and processed foods, but also a lot of fruits and vegetables, and as we talked about before, maybe more variety of grains, etcetera.

所以我们不想描绘一幅像法国乡村那样的画面，那里所有东西都是自己种植收获的，早上还要去寻找松露。我在法国南部待过一段时间，他们确实这样做。那里的人们花费大量时间和精力思考要吃什么、准备食物、享用美食，并在用餐时谈论他们吃过的其他美味佳肴。即使是预算有限的人，至少在当时，也能吃到份量合理、异常高质量的食物，而且非常美味。所以世界上有些地方的人们是这样做的，但在北欧，加工食品很多。

So we don't wanna paint a picture of, like, the French countryside where everything is grown and harvested and, you know, searching for truffles during the morning. I spent some time in the South Of France, and they actually do this. People there spend an immense amount of time and energy thinking about what they're going to eat, preparing that food, eating it, and talking about other great meals they've had while they eat it. And even people without large budgets, at least at that time, ate exceptionally high quality food in reasonable amounts, and it was incredibly delicious. So there are areas of the world where people do this, but Northern Europe, there's a lot of processed food.

与此同时，我们并没有看到同样程度的肥胖问题，至少不像美国这么严重，也没有我们在这里看到的同样的慢性健康和代谢问题。那么，如果我们比较一下最接近的——北欧超市和家庭与北美超市和家庭（你刚才描述的那个我认为相当有代表性的例子），有什么不同？他们晚餐吃的是什么不一样的东西？是因为番茄酱不含这些染料，不含糖吗？如果他们确实在替换这些食物，他们用什么来替代？

And at the same time, we don't see the same sorts of issues with obesity, at least not to the same degree that we do in The United States, the same chronic health and metabolic issues that we see here. So what if we were to compare and contrast, just because they're closest, a Northern European grocery store and family and the North American grocery store and family, which you just described, illustrated for us, I think, a fairly representative example, what's different? What are they eating for dinner that's different? Is it that the tomato sauce doesn't contain these dyes, that it doesn't contain sugar? And what are they replacing those foods with if they're replacing them at all?

所以可能至少有两个答案。其中一个会是：我数不清有多少欧洲或其他国家的人说过，他们在这里买了和在自己国家买的同一款产品，但配料却多了一倍。是同一家公司，同一种食物。比如那个榛子酱叫什么来着？

So probably at least two answers. And and one of them is gonna be, I can't tell you how many Europeans or other folks from other countries have said, bought same product that I buy in my home country here, and it has twice as many ingredients. It's the same company. It's the same food. It could be what's the hazelnut spread?

能多益(Nutella)。

Nutella.

能多益(Nutella)。比如这是你们在这里卖的能多益，这是我在那里买的能多益。已经有好几个人拿着它们来找我，给我看不同的成分表。所以它可以按照其他国家的方式生产。但在美国，它为了美国人以另一种方式生产。

Nutella. Like here's the Nutella you sell here and here's the Nutella I buy there. I've had multiple people bring those up to me and show me the different ingredients. So it can be made the other country way. But in The US, it's made another way for Americans.

如果我们哪怕只是迈出这一步，如果我们能说，好吧，你已经用另一种方式在另一个国家生产这个了。你能在美国也用同样的方式生产吗？那将是一个起点。

If we could even just make that move, if we could say, okay, you already make this in another country another way. Can you just make it the same way in The US? That would be a start right there.

为什么成分会有这种差异？最近关于Froot Loops（水果圈 cereal）的这件事在媒体上闹得很大。有争论说（我不知道这是否属实），加拿大的Froot Loops是用胡萝卜汁和甜菜汁着色的，而美国的Froot Loops使用人工染料。我无法核实这一点。

Why is it that there's this discrepancy in ingredients? This became very much in the media recently with Froot Loops. It was argued. I don't know if this is true, but it was argued that Froot Loops in Canada are colored with carrot juice and beet juice, and Froot Loops in The United States use artificial dyes. And I I I can't verify that.

我不确定这是否属实，但我觉得很多例子都指向这种可能性。如果别人能以相同或更低的成本做到，为什么还要维持我们这样的体系呢？

I don't know that to be true, but I think a number of examples pointed to that possibly being true. Why would you have a system like ours if other people can do it presumably for same or lesser cost?

我同意。我也无法证实那个说法，但出于某些无法解释的原因，我认为这是真的。这就是为什么需要多与食品行业沟通。我认为当前对超加工食品的抵制存在一些挑战，之前我也提到Nova分类法存在一些问题。

I agree. I can't back up that one statement either, but I think that is true for reasons that I can't explain. And that's why it would be helpful to talk more to the food industry. I think there are some challenges with this reaction against ultra processed foods. I think there are some problems with Nova that I brought up earlier.

你需要让这些食品变得可获得，但其中一些其实可以很快实现——只要利用现有的生产方式，而美国的法规又过于宽松。所以我认为关键不在于教育公众查看成分表找出超加工添加剂并剔除它，而在于表明立场后，食品行业会主动重新配方。如果有人要购买我的产品，如果有人因此批评我，我不仅需要重新配方——这并不难，因为我在其他国家已经这样做过——这样那个成分就会消失。

You'd have to make those foods accessible, but some of them you could fairly quickly if you took advantage of some of the other ways that people are making it and the rules are just too loose in The US. So I think that's important. And the level at which this could be impactful is not educating the public to look at the back and find the ultra processed cosmetic additive and removing it. It's to say that we're going to do this and the food industry will say, I'm going to have to reformulate. If somebody's gonna buy my product, if they're gonna call me out on this, not only am I gonna have to reformulate, it won't be hard because I do it in another country, and I could reformulate, and so that ingredient will be gone.

我想直接问一下你的研究：你是否接受食品行业公司的资助？

I should ask directly for your research, do you take funding from companies in the food industry?

有过几次。我拿过牛油果行业的资助，拿过大豆行业的，最近还接受了Beyond Meat的资助。说说Beyond Meat这个最新案例——我对比了Beyond Meat和红肉对心脏代谢指标的影响。Beyond Meat在多个指标上都优于红肉，为此我承受了很多非议。

So several times. So I've got avocado money, I took soy money, most recently I took Beyond Meat money. Let me talk about the Beyond Meat, which was the most recent one I pitted Beyond Meat versus Red Meat for cardiometabolic outcomes. And the Beyond Meat won in several categories over the red meat. And I got a lot of grief for that.

人们热爱红肉，包括我。是的。我会温和些，但不会完全温和。

People love their red meat, including me. Yep. Yeah. I'll go easy, but I'm not gonna go completely easy.

天啊。有人说我是行业傀儡，说我只会拿钱...其实我的资金大部分不来自那里。但我确实拿不到NIH资助来做这个研究，他们会说：等等，Beyond Meat赚得盆满钵满。

Oh my god. Gardner's an industry shill. All he does is take no. Most of my money does not come from there, but I actually couldn't get NIH funding to do that because they would say, wait a sec. Beyond Meat makes a crap ton of money.

他们刚完成了IPO，我们为什么要资助这项研究？让食品行业自己资助吧。这种情况其实很常见，我们可以讨论这有多大问题。公司资助测试自己产品的研究，这至少存在一定问题。

They just sold their IPO. Why would we fund that research? Let the food industry fund that. That actually happens all the time and we could get into how problematic that is or isn't. It's certainly at least somewhat problematic that the company is funding the research that will test their product.

但更让我感兴趣的是，这算是Beyond Meat 1.0版本。实际上他们的表现优于红肉。之后他们去除了椰子油和其他成分，添加了更温和的原料，已经多次重新配方。尽管我们的研究显示他们已有优势，但我完全尊重这种不断改进的态度。他们在倾听。

But more interesting to me was that this was sort of Beyond Meat one point zero. And Beyond Meat actually did better than the red meat. And they actually after that took out the coconut oil, out some other ingredients, added some more benign ingredients, and they've actually reformulated multiple times. And so by reformulating, even though the study we did show they had a benefit, I totally respect that. They're like, they are listening.

他们关注健康问题，努力做出响应。我认为如果整个食品行业都能这样做，我们能更紧密地合作，这才是改善美国食品供应的正确途径，而不是简单粗暴地说'这是Nova分类认定的超加工食品，全部淘汰'——这根本行不通。

They're looking at the health concerns. They're trying to be responsive. And I think if the food industry as a whole did this and we could work more closely with them, that would be the way to improve The US food supply as opposed to we have a new thing, it's Nova, get rid of them all. That won't really work.

所以我听到了两件事。第一，我们需要向食品行业施压，要求他们重新配方，去除这些添加剂、色素，你称之为化妆品添加剂的东西，这些东西可能致命也可能不致命。短期内肯定没问题，但长期来看很可能会有问题。我们只需要采取行动确保这些东西被移除。在这方面犹豫不决是毫无道理的。

So I'm hearing two things. One, we need to pressure the food industry to reformulate, get rid of these additives, dyes, what you call cosmetic additives, that may or may not be deadly. Certainly not in the short term, but that in the long term could very well be problematic. We just, we need to do something to make sure that that stuff's removed. It just doesn't make sense to to hedge on that one.

我们可以看看欧洲和其他不这么做的地区。显然，他们至少证明了食品不需要这些东西也能有稳定的保质期等等。好的，这是第一点。另一点是食品行业资助研究的问题，因为你知道，我不是营养学专家，但我非常关注营养与健康在网上的讨论方式。

And we can look to Europe and other places that don't. Clearly, they if nothing else, they've proved that you don't need these things in the foods for them to have a stable shelf life, etcetera. Okay. So that's one. The other is this issue of food industry funding of studies, because, you know, I'm not an expert in nutrition, but I pay a lot of attention to the way that nutrition and health is discussed online.

这或多或少是我的本行。每次有人听说研究人员拿了公司的钱做研究，他们就会认为存在偏见。为了对你和这个过程公平起见，我只想问，他们能影响研究问题吗？当然不能影响数据收集。我的意思是，数据就是数据。

I mean, that's my business more or less. And every time somebody hears that a researcher took money from a company to run a study, they assume that there's bias. In fairness to you and to the process, I'll just ask, are they able to influence the question? Certainly not the collection of data. I mean, you know, the data are the data.

真正进行这些实验的研究生和博士后们，他们一开始应该有个假设。他们提出一个问题，然后试图推翻这个假设。但公司是说我们希望你们测试某个特定假设，还是资助你们测试自己选择的假设？换句话说，概念上是否有良好的分离？显然，资金问题会让人激动，但当公司说'嘿'时，情况就完全不同了。

Your graduate students and postdocs who are the ones who actually run these experiments presumably note have a hypothesis at the beginning. They ask you a question and then try and disprove that hypothesis. But does the company say we want you to test a given hypothesis, or is it funding for you to test a hypothesis that you select? In other words, is there good separation of concept? Clearly, the money issue gets people inflamed, but it's a very different thing when a company says, hey.

你们能测试我们的产品在心代谢指标上是否优于红肉吗？对比另一种情况：'嘿，听着，你们想研究食用超越肉类与牛肉的人的心代谢指标吗？好的，我们会资助这个。'这看起来微妙，但其实并不微妙，因为在一种情况下，他们有一个感兴趣的重点指标。

Can you test whether or not our product outperforms in terms of cardiometabolic markers compared to red meat versus, hey, listen. You know, you wanna study you wanna study cardiometabolic markers in people that consume beyond meat versus cow meat? Okay. We'll fund that. There's there's it seems subtle, but it's not so subtle because in one case, they have a an endpoint that they're interested in.

在另一种情况下，你们有自己感兴趣的重点指标。是的。

In another in the other case, you have an end endpoint that you're interested in. Yeah.

这个问题没有简单的答案，因为它不是一个是非题。这是一个完整的连续体。他们可以说：'如果你做那个研究，我们就给你这笔钱。'他们也可以说：'我们给你这笔钱做任何你想做的研究，但请随时告诉我们进展。'你可以撰写研究结果。

It's not a simple answer to that because it's not a yes, no question. It's a total continuum. So they could say, we'll give you this money if you'll do that. They could say we'll give you this money to do anything you want but tell us about it as you go. You could write up the results.

我告诉你我在这方面最有趣的个人经历。在研究完成之前，一切都很顺利。这涉及到认知障碍问题。所以我甚至不会谈论具体产品。我只是想说明这个情况，因为我觉得你会觉得很有趣。

I'll give you the most interesting personal experience that I had in this. So everything was pretty benign all the way up till when we got the study done. And this had to do with cognitive impairment. And so I'm not going to even talk about the product. I'll just set this up because I think you'll find it interesting.

结果我们发现招募的人认知能力相当高。有一个测试，我认为50分是满分，每个报名的人都是45分。我们想看看这种补充剂是否能提高认知能力。但我们一开始就应该意识到提升空间不大。他们一开始就是45分（满分50）。

So it turns out the people we recruited had pretty high cognitive ability. There's a survey you can take and I think 50 was the top and everybody who signed up was a 45. And we're kind of looking to see if this supplement could increase cognitive ability. But we should have realized in the beginning that there wasn't much room to increase. They were 45 out of 50 to begin with.

研究未能显示该产品能提高认知能力。所以我们把结果分享给公司，他们说：'我看到你们说这里有个无效发现，你们能不能也说没有有害影响？'我说：'我们不是在寻找有害影响，我们是在寻找改善效果。'他们说：'是的，但难道不也是事实是它没有让情况变得更糟吗？'

And it failed to show that the product increased cognitive ability. So we shared it with the company and they said, well, I can see you're saying there's a null finding here, could you also say there was no deleterious effect? And I said, we weren't looking for a deleterious effect. We were looking for an improvement. I said, yeah, but isn't it also true that it didn't make it worse?

我当时想，这确实是真的。它并没有让情况变得更糟。我能否让这些人开心，也许以后能获得更多资金？我们是否可以说它没有让情况恶化？所以这可能是他们之后能施加的一种非常微妙的影响。

I thought, that's actually true. It didn't make it worse. Could I to make these guys happy and to maybe get more money later? Should we say it didn't make it worse? So that would be a really subtle influence that they could have later on.

理论上，他们可以这样营销：这种补充剂能维持高水平的认知表现。说一些真实的内容，但不提供完整的情况。

In theory, they could market with this supplement maintains high levels of cognitive performance Something truthful, like but not giving the whole picture.

归根结底，真正重要的是看研究设计。让我想想，我可以把这个转向更实际的方向。这甚至不是行业影响，而是研究者的影响。在我的营养学领域，这又回到了不在同一时间只做一件事，而是在同一时间做多件事的问题上。

And at the end of the day, really, the important thing is to look at the study design. So let me I think I can flip this to something that's way more practical than that. It's not even industry influence. It's the investigator influence. So in my world of nutrition, and this is going to go back to the parking lot of not doing one thing at one time, but doing multiple things at one time.

假设我想研究纯素食、原始饮食或生酮饮食之类的。我可以设置饮食A对比饮食B，让饮食A非常出色，而饮食B很糟糕。这样B胜出的可能性就很小。然后我发表结果，媒体头条报道，接着有其他人实际上支持竞争饮食。他们开始一项研究，让饮食B非常出色，饮食A很糟糕。

Let's say I want to study vegan or paleo or keto or something like that. I can have diet A versus diet B and make a kick ass diet A and a crappy diet B. So it's really unlikely that B will win. And then I published that and there's a headline on it and then there's someone else who actually favors the competing diet. They start a study, they make a kick ass diet B and a crappy diet A.

然后饮食B胜出，因为他们就是这样设置的。完全没有行业影响。这是研究者的影响。然后公众来了，说这到底是怎么回事？一天说饮食A更好，另一天又说饮食B比尼克更好。

And the diet B wins because they set it up that way. No industry influence at all. This is investigator influence. And then the public comes and says, what the hell? It said diet A is better one day and it said diet B is better than Nick.

天啊，你们营养科学家从来对任何事情都达不成一致。我本来想去吃个汉堡。我想说，如果你看过研究设计的话——营养学中我最喜欢的新词之一是“均衡性”。我一直在尝试建立这样的研究：让饮食A和饮食B都处于最佳状态。如果我能简单提几个例子，我最著名的研究之一是“饮食适配”研究。

My god, you nutrition scientists never agree on anything. I was gonna go have a burger. I was like, if you had looked at the design so one of my favorite new words in nutrition is equipoise. I've been trying to set up studies where it's the best diet a that you could be and the best diet b. So if I can just riff off a couple things, one of my most famous studies is diet fits.

它涉及低碳水化合物和低脂肪饮食。600人参与，为期一年。这是一项800万美元的研究。

It had to do with a low carb, low fat diet. 600 people for a year. This is an $8,000,000 study.

这是2018年的研究吗？

This is the 2018 study?

是的。嗯。我们尝试过，我告诉营养师们，我说我不太在意哪个胜出。我们实际上认为存在一些遗传倾向或代谢倾向。如果每个人都能赢就太好了，但为了公平测试，我希望所有营养师都能为这项研究中的600人提供建议。

Yeah. Uh-huh. And we try and I told the dietitians, I said, I don't really care which one wins. We actually think there's some genetic predisposition or metabolic predisposition. It'd be great if everybody won, but just to test this fairly, I want all the dietitians to be advising the 600 people in this study.

你必须同时教授低脂和低碳水化合物饮食。你被分配到不同组，尽你所能教授最好的低碳水化合物饮食和最好的低脂肪饮食，这样如果最后有一方胜出，我们可以说我们给了双方公平的机会。当我们进行“交换肉类”研究时，这是我们的研究，涉及开胃植物食品、肉类替代试验，与Beyond Meat合作的交换肉类试验。我们应该选择什么作为红肉对照？应该选择快餐吗？

You have to teach both low fat and low carb. You get assigned to different groups and teach the best low carb you can and the best low fat you can so that if one wins at the end, we can say we gave both of them a fair shot. When we did swap meat, this is our our study with appetizing plant food, meat eating alternative trials, swap meat trial with Beyond Meat. What should we pick for the red meat? Should we pick fast food?

我们应该选哪个？

Should we pick?

再见。

Goodbye.

我们去了旧金山，在'优质鸡蛋'公司购买了以其有机、再生农业、牧场放养为荣的产品，因此我们想获得优质的红肉。我们进行了一项纯素饮食与杂食饮食的对比研究。对于杂食饮食，我们选择了一家制作优质食品的公司并采用配送服务，与纯素食进行对比。我们还进行了生酮饮食与地中海饮食的对比，精心设计了优质的地中海饮食，并以Jeff Fulik和Steve Finney精心设计的生酮饮食作为参照。在所有这些研究中，我们团队一直致力于回应您的评论，努力摆脱行业影响，力求使两种饮食方案尽可能公平地竞争。

We went to San Francisco and got good eggs which prides itself on getting organic, regeneratively farm, pasture raised, so we wanted to get a good quality red meat. We did a study with a vegan diet versus an omnivorous diet. And so for the omnivorous diet, we went to a company that makes really good food and we have it delivered versus vegan. We did ketogenic versus Mediterranean and we made a good Mediterranean diet and we did Jeff Fulik and Steve Finney's well formulated ketogenic diet as the comparison. So in all these, our group has been having fun trying to address your comment separate from industry influence just to to try to make the two arms as fairly competing against one another as you can.

回到行业影响的问题，要100%完全避免是不可能的。根本没办法。有太多细微之处可能发生问题。如今有帮助的一点是，你必须在clinicaltrials.gov上注册试验。必须提前公布主要结局指标和整个研究设计，让全世界都能看到。

Going back to the industry one, there's no way to pull it off 100% clean. There's just no way. There's so many subtle things that could happen. So the thing that does help these days is you have to register your trial in clinicaltrials.gov to start with. Have to name the primary outcome ahead of time and the whole study design for the world to see.

所以如果研究结束时你改变了主要指标，有人会指出你在胡扯。那根本不是你的主要结局。你可以让第三方分析你的数据。你可以在结束时锁定数据。你可以公开数据。

So if it gets to the end of the study and you switched it, somebody will say calling you out on BS. That wasn't your primary outcome. You can have a third party analyze your data. You can lock down the data at the end. You can make the data publicly available.

还有几个这样的步骤可以让你尽可能透明。这样你可以降低行业影响的可能性。但你永远无法完全消除它。所以如果我得到了阳性结果，也许他们以后会再次资助我做其他项目。尽管他们并没有...有些行业人士，比如我经常收到礼物。

There's a couple more of these steps that you could this is as transparent as I can be. So you can make the chance of industry influence lower. But you can never eliminate it. So if I find a positive result, maybe they'll fund me again later for something else. Even though they didn't some of this industry folks, like I often get gifts.

如果是礼物，他们不能要求查看任何东西。但我可以主动给他们看结果。如果我给他们看了，他们说，嘿，你考虑做这个吗？如果我拒绝说'不，你给了我礼物，但我不会考虑你说的'，那我就太傻了。我会说，是的，我会考虑的。

If it's a gift, they can't demand to see anything. But I can offer to show them what happened. And if I if I show them and they say, hey, would you consider doing this? I'd be pretty stupid to say, no, you gave me a gift, and I'm not gonna consider the thing you said. I I would say, yeah, I'll consider it.

我会看看，我想呈现客观数据，但我觉得问题不在于行业本身，而在于研究者及其处理方式。

I will look at it, and I wanna present objective data, but it's I don't think it's the industry as much as the investigator and how they handle it.

正如你们许多人知道的，我每天服用AG1已经超过十三年了。然而，我现在发现了一种更好的维生素矿物质益生菌饮品。这种新的更好的饮品就是全新升级的AG1，本月刚刚推出。AG1的这款新一代配方是我多年来每日服用的产品的更先进、经临床验证的版本。它包含了新的生物可利用营养素和增强的益生菌。

As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily for more than thirteen years. However, I've now found an even better vitamin mineral probiotic drink. That new and better drink is the new and improved AG1, which just launched this month. This next gen formula from AG1 is a more advanced clinically backed version of the product that I've been taking daily for years. It includes new bioavailable nutrients and enhanced probiotics.

新一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的最新激动人心的研究。它现在包含几种经过临床研究的特定益生菌菌株，已被证明能支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，改善肠道规律性并减少腹胀。作为一位从事科研超过三十年、同样长时间关注健康与健身的人，我不断寻找最佳工具来改善我的心理健禿、身体健康和表现。我在2012年就发现并开始服用AG1，远在我拥有播客之前，从那时起我每天都服用。我发现它能极大改善我健康的各个方面。

The Next Gen Formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome. And it now includes several specific clinically studied probiotic strains that have been shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating. As someone who's been involved in research science for more than three decades and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance. I discovered and started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast and I've been taking it every day since. I find that it greatly improves all aspects of my health.

我服用它后感觉真的好多了。随着每一年过去——顺便说一句，今年九月我就50岁了——我持续感觉越来越好。我把这很大程度上归功于AG1。AG1使用最高质量的成分并以恰当的比例组合，他们还在不断改进配方而不增加成本。所以我很荣幸他们能成为本播客的赞助商。

I just feel so much better when I take it. With each passing year, and by the way, I'm turning 50 this September, I continue to feel better and better. And I attribute a lot of that to AG1. AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost. So I'm honored to have them as a sponsor of this podcast.

如果你想尝试AG1，可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman领取特别优惠。目前，AG1正在赠送AG1欢迎套装，包含五份免费旅行装和一瓶免费维生素D3K2。再次提醒，请访问drinkag1.com/huberman领取包含五份免费旅行装和一瓶免费维生素D3K2的特别欢迎套装。今天的节目也由BetterHelp赞助。BetterHelp提供完全在线进行的持证治疗师专业治疗服务。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. Right now, AG1 is giving away an AG1 welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2. Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.

我坚持每周接受治疗已经超过三十年了。最初并非自愿，而是被允许留在学校的条件。但很快我就意识到，治疗是整体健康极其重要的组成部分。事实上，我认为定期每周接受治疗与定期锻炼同样重要——当然我每周也坚持锻炼。优质的治疗本质上提供三方面的价值。

I've been doing weekly therapy for over thirty years. Initially, didn't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school, But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health. In fact, I consider doing regular weekly therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which of course I also do every week. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.

首先，优质治疗能建立与可信任之人的良好关系，你可以与之讨论任何问题。其次，优质治疗以情感支持或定向指导的形式提供支持。第三，专业治疗能提供有用的见解。有时这些见解来自治疗师，有时你在治疗过程中自己领悟到。

First of all, great therapy provides a great rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about any and all issues with. Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance. And third expert therapy can provide useful insights. Sometimes those come from the therapist. Sometimes you realize those yourself in the course of therapy.

有时你们会共同得出这些见解。这些见解能让你做出改变，以不可估量的方式改善生活——不仅是情感生活和人际关系，还包括职业生活。BetterHelp让你轻松找到共鸣的专业治疗师，并通过有效治疗提供这些益处。如果你想尝试BetterHelp，请访问betterhelp.com/huberman，首月可享9折优惠。再次提醒，网址是betterhelp.com/huberman。

And sometimes you arrive at those insights together. Those insights can allow you to make changes to improve your life in immeasurable ways, not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but also your professional life. With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist you resonate with, and they can provide you these benefits that come through effective therapy. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

说到这个...我们还是先结束产业资助这个话题吧，因为我知道这会让一些人有点炸毛。是否存在一个不需要依赖产业资助就能进行这些研究的世界？我的第一反应是：为什么要另辟蹊径？我们不是有国立卫生研究院（NIH）吗？他们资助从开发治疗帕金森病的新分子到研究呼吸练习对癌症结果影响的各种研究。

When it comes to well, let's just close the hatch on the industry funding part because I I know that's gonna get some people's hair standing up a little bit. Is there a world where you don't have to rely on industry funding to do these studies? I mean, my first response is like, why go there? Why not just, mean, we have a National Institutes of Health. They fund studies on everything from developing novel molecules for the treatment of Parkinson's to studying the effects of breath work on cancer outcomes.

我是说，

Mean,

如今NIH涵盖的主题范围非常广泛，但我觉得大多数人都没意识到，其实包罗万象。所以为什么不直接向NIH申请资金呢？

nowadays it's a very wide range of topics that the NIH embraces, but I think most people don't realize this, but there's an everything in between. So why not just go to NIH for the money?

历史上，NIH预算中用于营养研究的比例微乎其微。多次有人提议设立营养研究所。就个人而言，这想法挺自私的。我完全赞成。希望他们能有更多资源让我用客观资金进行这类研究。

Historically, the proportion of the NIH budget gone to that goes to nutrition studies is infinitesimally small. There's been many requests to create an Institute of Nutrition. Personally, that'd be pretty selfish. I'm all in. I wish they would have more resources for me to do those kinds of studies with objective money.

我猜罗伯特·肯尼迪会支持这类提议。我这么说没有任何政治立场，但他似乎非常关注从食品中去除色素和添加剂，非常关注食品供应。至少他这么声明过。是的。而且NIH目前正处于大规模修订阶段，应该说是暂停/修订状态。

My guess is Robert Kennedy would be a fan of that sort of thing. I'm not speaking about this with any political affiliation, but he seems to care a lot about getting dyes and additives out of food and cares a lot about the food supply. At least he stated that. Yeah. And NIH is currently in a state of massive revision right now, pause slash revision.

而且我想，鉴于现在谁在掌权，他们会为营养研究分配更多资金。

And I would imagine they would allocate more funding for studies of nutrition given who's in charge now.

更大的挑战在于营养问题有多少。我刚在膳食指南咨询委员会服务了两年。我们有两年的时间来审议60个不同的问题。每个问题又衍生出子问题。绝大多数问题的结论都是要么数据不足，要么数据仅够给出有限强度的回应。

The bigger challenge is how many nutrition questions there are. So I just served for two years on the dietary guidelines advisory committee. We had two years to consider 60 different questions. Each one of the questions generated sub questions. The vast majority of questions resulted in a conclusion that's either not enough data available or only enough data available to generate a limited strength response.

要获得中等或强有力的证据，就需要更多数据。在整个两年的过程中，这几乎令人麻木地重复：需要更多数据，需要更多数据，更多数据。这涉及到零食、跳餐、心脏病、糖尿病、癌症、怀孕、婴儿期、加工食品、种子油、肉类和蛋白质。问题几乎是无穷无尽的。

To get a moderate or a strong, more data are needed. This was almost mind numbingly repetitive through the whole two year process. More data needed, more data needed, more data. And this had to do with snacks, skipping meals, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, pregnancy, infancy, processed foods, seed oils, meat and protein. The questions are pretty endless.

即使你开放美国国立卫生研究院（NIH）并说，是的，我们将把25%的预算用于研究营养，你也远远无法回答公众目前所有的疑问。

Even if you opened up the NIH and said, Yeah, we're going to move 25% of our budget to studying nutrition, you wouldn't even come close to answering all the questions that the public has right now.

是的。这是一个重要的观点，而且我想说公众也在做这些实验。你知道，健康与保健社群经常受到标准科学界的很多批评。他们会说，补充剂不受监管。但其实它们是受监管的。

Yeah. That's an important point, and I would say that the the public is also doing these experiments. You know, the health and wellness community gets catches a lot of flack from the standard scientific community. They'll say, you know, supplements aren't regulated. They are regulated.

不同品牌甚至同一品牌内的补充剂质量参差不齐。但实验仍在进行中。有人实行肉食主义，有人是纯素食者，有人在寻找适合自己的方式。

There is variety of qualities across brands and even probably even supplements within brand. But the experiments are ongoing. You have people who are carnivore. You have people who are vegan. You have people finding what works for them.

他们排除这个或添加那个，正在为自己成为科学家。在我看来，我们真的已经去中心化了营养科学。这只是我的一点个人评论。你提到了这项2018年的研究，我很高兴你提到通过让纯素饮食不像糟糕的纯素食品，以及不让肉类饮食全是加工肉来消除研究者偏见的努力，因为这在很多研究中都发生过。是的。

They eliminate this or they add that, and they're becoming scientists for themselves. And we've really decentralized nutrition science in my opinion. That's just my little editorializing. You mentioned this 2018 study, and I'm so glad that you mentioned your efforts to remove investigator bias by making the vegan diet not like crap vegan food, and not making the meat diet all processed meats because that's happened in a lot of studies. Yes.

这就是为什么多年来甚至一年内的头条新闻如此令人困惑。那么，你能和我们分享那项研究的主要结果和关键要点吗？这样那些听说过原始饮食、纯素、素食、地中海饮食和杂食的人就能知道，如果有的话，哪种饮食最好，以及为了什么目的？

And then that's why the headlines are so confusing over the years or even within a year. So could you just share with us the major results of that study and what the key takeaway was so that people who heard, oh, heard paleo, vegan, vegetarian, you know, Mediterranean and omnivore, which diet was best if any and for what purpose?

是的。归根结底，如果把我所有的研究放在一起，我的看法是：全食物植物性饮食是最好的，这并不意味着纯素或素食，但可以包括。

Yeah. At the end of the day, my take if you put all of my studies together, it's a whole food plant based diet, which does not mean vegan and doesn't mean vegetarian, but could.

等等。植物性，但包括肉类？

Wait. Plant based, but includes meat?

是的。所以我不喜欢这种把植物基等同于纯素食的新说法。抱歉。所以我们不是

Yeah. So I don't like this new thing about plant based being vegan. Sorry. So we're not

这个名字太糟糕了。

That's a terrible name.

那我们就花60秒来理一下：鱼素者、乳蛋素食者、奶素食者、蛋素食者、纯素食者、弹性素食者、减肉主义者。

So let's just do this for sixty seconds. So pescatarian, lacto ovo vegetarian, lacto vegetarian, ovo vegetarian, vegan, flexitarian, reducitarian.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

现在有各种各样的术语。很明显，其中一个不太受欢迎的就是'纯素食'。这个词非常两极分化。很大程度上是因为纯素食群体中，很多人选择这种生活方式是出于动物权益和福利的考虑，但这有时会显得有点高高在上。

There's all kinds of words out there. And clearly, one of the ones that doesn't go over well is vegan. Vegan is very polarizing. And a lot of that is because the vegan community, an important reason many of them are vegan is animal rights and welfare. And it becomes sort of a condescending thing.

天哪。你太不道德了。你宰杀动物还吃它们。我比你高尚多了。我才不会这样做。

Oh my god. You're so unethical and immoral. You slaughter animals and eat them. I am holier than thou. I don't.

嗯，现在这就涉及到素食者是否穿皮鞋的问题了。嗯哼。而且素食主义社区历史上与动物权利社区联系非常紧密，其中一些是激进的动物权利活动家。他们炸毁建筑物，甚至更糟。我认识一些曾是那些爆炸事件目标的人。

Well, now it gets into issues whether or not a vegan is wearing leather shoes or not wearing leather shoes. Uh-huh. And the vegan community historically was very closely tied to the animal rights community, some of which were radical animal rights activists. They blew up buildings and, you know, and worse. I know people who have been targeted by those explosions.

我坚持植物性素食已经很多很多年了，我没有炸毁任何建筑物，也没有泼洒任何红色

I have been plant based vegan for many, many years, and I haven't blown up any buildings, I haven't thrown any rain red

颜料，我相信你。

paint I believe you.

对任何穿皮草的人。但因为这种做法太具分裂性了，最近，而且我认为这将会引发反弹并且会失败。人们一直在用'植物基'作为素食的不同说法。就像，哦，我们不是那个分裂的群体，我们是植物基的，这不分裂。所以我这样做已经三十年了。

On anybody wearing a fur. But because that was so polarizing, recently, and I think this is gonna have this is gonna have a backlash and it's gonna be fail. People have been using plant based as a different word for vegan. Just like, oh, we're not the polarizing group, we're the plant based, which is not polarizing. So I've been doing this for thirty years.

当我说过去二十年以植物为主时，我的意思是指大部分是植物，加上一些乳制品和一些肉类。所以我实际使用这个词的方式与最近演变出的含义不同。因此当我说全食物植物性饮食时，可能包含25%的动物产品，可能是30%，可能是10%，可能是零动物产品，也可能是以植物为主。这有点像迈克尔·波伦那句老话：吃食物，不过量，以植物为主。这就是我的研究想要表达的。

When I said plant based for the last twenty years, I meant most of its plants, and some of its dairy, and some of its meat. So I actually use it differently than what it has just morphed into recently. So when I say whole food plant based diet, that could be 25% animal products, it could be 30% animal products, could be 10%, it could be zero animal products, it could be mostly plants. This is sort of Michael Pollan's old eat food, not too much, mostly plants. So that's what my research would suggest.

在我们被Netflix报道的双胞胎研究中，纯素食者比杂食者表现更好。地中海饮食与生酮饮食的比较则更微妙，我们可能需要深入讨论。低碳水与低脂肪的对比非常明确是针对减重的。所以这里还有一个问题：目标是什么？是为了减肥吗？

The vegans did better than the omnivores in our twin study that was featured on Netflix. The Mediterranean versus the keto diet, it's a little more subtle, we might have to get into that. The low carb versus low fat was very specifically for weight loss. So another issue here is, you know, what's the goal? Is it a weight loss thing?

是为了心血管健康吗？你必须考虑在人群中的暴露情况。我的最著名研究——饮食适配研究（有600人参与）非常有趣，我们获得了几乎无限的资金，主要来自NIH，部分来自Peter Attia和Gary Tobes领导的营养科学倡议组织。如果允许我稍微跑题一下，我之前还做过另一个叫做A到Z的研究，A代表阿特金斯饮食，T代表传统健康专业人士的方法，O代表奥尼什饮食，Z代表区域饮食。其中三种是畅销书推荐的流行饮食，它们在碳水与脂肪比例上差异巨大。

Is it a cardio amount? You have to think about the exposure in the population. So the diet fit study, my most famous study with the 600 people is really fun to where we had sort of unlimited funds, mostly from NIH, but from some from the nutrition science initiative that Peter Attia and Gary Tobes led. If it's okay if I go here just for a minute, I had done another study before that called the A to Z study, and A was Atkins and T was a traditional health professional's approach and O was Ornish and Z was Zone. And three of those were popular books that were bestsellers, and they were wildly different in carbs and fats.

阿特金斯是超低碳水，奥尼什是超高碳水，区域饮食处于中间，传统健康专业人士的方法算是对照组。有311名女性参与了一年，这是一个减重研究。最终当我们把论文发表在JAMA上时，各组只有几磅的差异。唯一具有统计学显著差异的是阿特金斯和区域饮食之间，这很奇怪因为这两种都是低碳水饮食。你可能会以为是阿特金斯对奥尼什——两种极端饮食——但它们之间却没有差异。

Atkins was super low carb, Ornish was super high carb, Zone was kind of in the middle, and the traditional health professionals approach was sort of the control. Had three eleven women who did it for a year, and it was a weight loss study. And at the end of the day, when we published the paper in JAMA, there were a few pounds different. The only statistically significant difference was between Atkins and Zone, which was weird because those were the two low carb diets. You would have thought maybe it's Atkins versus Ornish, the two extreme diets, but those weren't different.

当我审视2007年2月发表的这项研究时，真正让我震惊的不是组间的小差异，而是组内的巨大差异——每组75名女性中，有人减了30、40甚至50磅，有人却增重了5-10磅。我当时想，天啊，饮食方案内部的差异比不同饮食方案之间的平均差异有意思多了。我开始了解胰岛素抵抗，开始研究遗传 predisposition——这其实是我们今天对话的起点。也许我应该关注这些个人因素、这些 predisposing 因素，从而帮助判断某人更适合哪种饮食。

When I looked at that study published in 02/2007, what really struck me was not the small differences between groups, but the within group differences, which were massive in every one of the groups, 75 women in a group, somebody had lost thirty, forty and fifty pounds and somebody had gained five or 10. And I thought, oh my god, like the difference within the diets is way cooler than the difference, the average difference between the diets. I'm starting to learn about insulin resistance. I'm starting to learn about genetic predisposition which is sort of where our conversation started today. You know, maybe I should be looking at these personal factors, these predisposing factors so I could help see if somebody was better on one versus another.

当我们分析数据和其他文献时，发现两个重要因素：胰岛素抵抗者可能更适合低碳水饮食，因为胰岛素抵抗者难以代谢碳水化合物——如果低脂饮食同时是高碳水就会有问题。至于遗传 predisposition，一家叫Interleukin Genetics的公司研究了我们的部分数据后说：天啊，我们确实有一个三SNP（单核苷酸多态性）多位点基因型模式，我们假设它能预测谁适合低脂或低碳水饮食。我们问NIH：你们愿意资助这个吗？

As we look through our data and the rest of the literature, the two things that arose were insulin resistance may be better on low carb. Because folks who are insulin resistant have a hard time putting away carb. So the low fat is problematic if it's high carb. And genetic predisposition there was a group called Interleukin Genetics that came and looked at some of our data and said, Oh my god, we actually have three SNP single nucleotide polymorphism, a three SNP multi locus genotype pattern that we hypothesize predicts who's low fat and low carb. And we said NIH, would you fund this?

他们同意了。我们还从营养科学倡议组织获得了额外资金。我们招募了600人，随机分组进行了一年研究。每个人都积极参与——这是我做过的最佳、最严谨、最具普适性的研究。重要的是，一年后两组之间没有平均差异——这其实正是我们想要的。

And they did. And we got this extra money from the Nutrition Science Initiative. We got 600 people. We randomized them for a year. Everybody was into it, it just like the best, highest rigor, highest generalizability study I've ever done, and importantly there was no average difference at the end of the year in the two groups which is actually exactly what we wanted.

基于我们过去的工作，我们假设如果低碳水和低脂肪饮食都高质量执行，平均差异将可忽略不计，但会出现个体差异范围——结果确实如此。这次两组中都有人减了60磅，也有人增重20磅，形成了一个连续谱。这太完美了！我们将有机会通过口服葡萄糖耐量测试（OGTT）来解释这种变异性——这算是除了Jerry Rieben做的稳态血浆葡萄糖测试（太剧烈太昂贵）之外的最先进方法了。

If we had a high quality of low carb and low fat, we assumed that the average difference would be negligible based on our past work, but we would get this range and we did. This time somebody had lost 60 pounds and somebody had gained 20 in both groups. And it was a continuum. It's like, oh, this is perfect. We are going to have a chance to explain this variability with a glucose, oral glucose tolerance test, which is sort of state of the art other than the steady state plasma glucose thing Jerry Rieben does which is too intense and too expensive.

口服葡萄糖耐量测试远比空腹血糖测试更好，我们还进行了基因分型——但两者都没能预测这种变异性。

Oral glucose tolerance test much better than a fasting glucose and we'll genotype them And neither of them predicted the variability.

这只是意味着用错了探测方法。你们试图用错误的测试来解决这种相关性。

Just means it was the wrong the wrong probe. You're you're using the wrong test to to try and address this correlation.

所以，后来一位博士后看着我说，大约有50个单核苷酸多态性与肥胖有关，而你只测试了其中一组三个。这意味着还有九十九万九千九百九十九种其他基因探针或测试可用，而你只是否定了其中一种。我说，是的。但胰岛素抵抗那个非常流行，之前有很多研究都做过这个。

So, yeah, a postdoc looked at me afterward and said, there are, like, 50 single nucleotide polymorphisms that have been linked to obesity, and you tested one set of three of them. So that does mean there's nine hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred nine ninety nine other genetic probes or tests that you could use, and you've disproved one of them. And I said, yeah. But the insulin resistance one was very popular. There were a bunch of studies that had done this.

我必须分享加里·托贝斯在我们做这个研究时说过的一句非常有趣的话，因为加里·托贝斯也参与了Nucy。

And I have to share a really funny comment that Gary Tobes made while we're doing this because Gary Tobes was involved in Nucy.

他最出名的是什么？你能

What's he best known for? Could you

就是低碳水化合物。低碳水化合物。所以加里·托贝斯是个低碳水化合物狂热者。他的演讲非常精彩，可以滔滔不绝地讲数据和数据和数据。

just Low carb. Low carb. So Gary Tobes is a low carb fanatic. And he gives excellent talks. Can riff on and on about data and data and data.

但我必须告诉你他在研究接近尾声时说过的一句有趣的话：'我现在意识到，你快要完成并发表研究了，但你搞砸了这个研究。'我说，我搞砸了研究？他说：'对于低脂组，你告诉他们不要吃添加糖或精制谷物，尽管那些是低脂的。'我说：'嗯，是的，实际上我们告诉两组人都要吃真正健康的饮食，而添加糖和精制谷物不健康。'他说：'这会减少看到差异的机会，因为大多数吃低碳水化合物的人比传统低脂饮食的人表现更好，因为低脂饮食者吃高碳水时通常会摄入添加糖和精制谷物。'

But I have to tell you a funny comment that he made as we got to the end of the study said, I realized now that you're at the end and you're about to publish it, that you screwed up the study. I said, did I screw up the study? And he said, Well, for the low fat group, you told them not to have added sugar or refined grain, even though those are low fat. And I said, well, yeah, actually we told both groups to have a really healthy diet and added sugar and refined grains aren't healthy. And he said, that's it's gonna diminish the chance to see a difference because most people who are eating low carb versus the traditional low fat do better because the low fatters eating high carb are eating added sugar and refined grain.

我认为那不是搞砸研究，而是在做均衡比较。我看到很多文献表明，胰岛素抵抗确实提示有一部分人群在低碳水化合物饮食上比低脂饮食表现更好。实际上，我们现在已经用生酮饮食与地中海饮食的研究跟进那项研究。在那项特定研究中，我们的设置是两组都摄入大量地上蔬菜（生酮饮食认为可以），避免添加糖和精制谷物。而生酮组不吃豆类、水果和全谷物。

I thought that's not screwing this study up, that's doing the equipoise thing. I saw a lot of literature showing that insulin resistance did suggest that there was a subset of the population that would do better on low carb than low fat. And we've actually now followed up on that study with a ketogenic versus a Mediterranean diet study. And in that particular study, the way we set it up is both groups would get a lot of above ground vegetables, which keto says is okay, avoid added sugar and refined grain. And keto would have no beans, no fruits, no whole grains.

地中海组则包含豆类、全谷物和水果。所以他们在糖化血红蛋白上没有差异，这是clinicaltrials.gov上列出的主要结果。生酮饮食升高了LDL。生酮饮食在降低甘油三酯方面实际上比地中海饮食做得更好。

And Mediterranean would embrace beans and whole grains and fruits. And so they didn't have a glycosylated hemoglobin difference, that was a primary outcome listed on clinicaltrials.gov. The keto diet raised LDL. The keto diet did actually a better job lowering triglycerides than Mediterranean.

生酮饮食在降低甘油三酯方面做得更好 是的。比地中海饮食好。

The keto diet did better at lowering triglycerides Yes. Than Mediterranean.

是的。

Yes.

这让我感到惊讶。

That surprises me.

不，因为他们在清除碳水化合物方面做得更好。当你清除所有碳水化合物时，那些多余的碳水化合物就不会进入肝脏制造甘油三酯。这并不令人惊讶。而且生酮饮食的饱和脂肪含量更高，所以它提高了低密度脂蛋白。

No, because they did better at wiping out carbs. When they wipe when you wipe out all your carbs, then those extra carbs don't go into your liver to make triglycerides. Not surprised. And the keto diet was higher in saturated fat, so it raised the LDL.

但地中海饮食的碳水化合物通常是相当健康的碳水化合物。

But the Mediterranean diet carbs generally are pretty healthy carbs.

是的，这正是关键所在。我们能回到这一点讨论一下吗？对我来说，这就是审视这种平衡点的意义。当我们让低碳水和低脂肪都变得健康时，我们的主要预测结果——基因型问题和胰岛素抵抗——并没有发挥作用，我们从中学到的是：两种方式都可以，只要以健康的方式进行，就没问题。当我们转向生酮和地中海饮食时，它们都降低了糖化血红蛋白。

Yes, and that's the point. So can we go back there for a minute? So to me, that is the point of sort of looking at this equipoise. So when we made the low carb and the low fat both healthy, our primary predictive outcomes, the genotype thing and the insulin resistance didn't work, and what we took home from that message is you could do either one, if you do them in a healthy way, it would be okay. And when we took it to ketogenic and Mediterranean, they both lowered glycosylated hemoglobin.

生酮饮食对低密度脂蛋白的影响更差，但对甘油三酯的影响更好。但当我们追踪依从性时，人们无法坚持生酮饮食。他们无法维持那种极低的碳水化合物和极低的脂肪水平。因此，在探讨这些问题时，正如你刚才提到的营养学中的微妙差别，普通大众——我同意这一点——看着你们这么多人会说：天啊，你们无法达成一致。我能回到我实际上帮助美国糖尿病协会制定指南的事实吗？

One had, the keto had a worse effect on LDL, but a better effect on triglycerides. But as we track the adherence, people couldn't adhere to the keto. They couldn't maintain that really low level of carb and the really low level of fat. And so as you're working through these questions, are the subtle nuances in nutrition that you just said the poor public and I agree, looks at so many of you and says, my god, you guys can't agree. Can I go back to the fact that I've actually helped American diabetes with their guidelines?

我与美国心脏协会有很多合作。我刚刚从膳食指南咨询委员会轮值结束。当科学家们审视营养数据时，我们几乎总是意见一致。营养科学家其实并没有分歧。我们的共识程度比大多数人想象的要高，甚至高得有些乏味。

I work a lot with the American Heart Association. I just rotated off the dietary guidelines advisory committee. And when there are scientists looking at nutrition data, we almost always agree. Nutrition scientists don't really disagree. We're almost boringly more in agreement than most people think.

对我个人而言，有趣的是，也是我早起晚睡的动力，是围绕食物进行科学研究的方式既迷人又复杂。我今天参加你的节目是因为，我认为如果我们有更多机会解释这些细微差别，人们会明白极端方法可能并无帮助。其实有一些中间道路，比如全食物植物性饮食，你可以是纯素者，也可以是素食者。如果你是纯素者，也可能是个糟糕的纯素者——你可以吃可乐、薯条和奥利奥。

And what's fun for me personally, what why I get up in the morning and stay up late at night, is the the way you do science around food is fascinating and complicated. And the reason I'm on your show today is because I I think if we had more of an opportunity to explain some of these subtle nuances, people would understand that the extremes probably aren't gonna help you. There's really some middle of the road stuff like a whole food plant based diet where you could be vegan, you could be vegetarian. If you are vegan, could be a crappy vegan. You could have Coke, french fries, and Oreos.

那些都是纯素的。如果你是生酮饮食者，你可能吃一大堆肉，这碳水化合物极低，但生酮饮食全是脂肪，其实并不是大量蛋白质和肉。所以能上你的节目，有机会深入探讨，与听众分享一些在社交媒体影响者或头条新闻只捕捉整体信息而忽略其他细节时容易被掩盖的重要事实，是件很有趣的事。我们如何以有趣的方式传达这些信息呢？

Those are all vegan. If you are keto, you could be eating a whole bunch of meat, which is super low carb, but a keto diet is all fat. It's really not a lot of protein and meat. So it's fun to come on your show and have the chance to dive a little deeper and talk to the listeners about some of the important facts that get a little obscured when the social influencers or the headline is just capturing an overall message without seeing some of the rest of this. How do we communicate this in a fun way?

我个人一直采用的方式——实际上我的职业生涯现在已经转向——我经常与CIA合作。我是CIA科学咨询委员会的成员，不是五角大楼那个，是美国烹饪学院（Culinary Institute of America）。与他们合作最有趣的是他们多么重视味道、能量、口感，这些人们真正关心的事情，而不是我的一些p值、统计数据和平衡点。

And my the personal way I've been doing this, actually, my career has shifted now. I now work a lot with the CIA. I am on the scientific scientific advisory board of the CIA, not the Pentagon one, the Culinary Institute of America. And what's really been fun about them is how much they appreciate taste, energy, taste, like the the things that people really care about. Not some of my p values and my statistics and my equipoise.

他们想要美学。他们希望个人看起来好看，希望食物看起来诱人、尝起来美味、容易获得。所以我一直在做一些有趣的新研究，由厨师们引领方向。我相当反对现在流行的这种蛋白质狂热风潮。

They want the aesthetic. They want to look good personally. They want the food to look good, taste good, be accessible. So I've been doing some new fun studies where chefs are sort of leading the way. So I'm pretty much against this whole protein craze thing that's going on.

美国烹饪学院引入了'蛋白质翻转'的概念，不再是盘子中央放一大块肉，旁边配些蔬菜和淀粉。而是将蔬菜、谷物和豆类放在盘子中央，强调非洲、亚洲、地中海和拉丁美洲风味，肉类只有两盎司，或者作为调味品或配菜。就像让美学看起来更好，让味道更棒。所以我用的短语来自CIA的Greg Drescher：'毫不抱歉的美味'。我希望能把科学知识放在口袋里支持这一切。

And the Culinary Institute of America has introduced this concept called the protein flip, where instead of having a massive piece of flesh in the middle of the plate with maybe some vegetables and starch on the side. It's vegetables and grains and beans in the middle of the plate with an African, Asian, Mediterranean, Latin American emphasis, and the meat is two ounces or it's a condiment or it's a side dish. It's like making the aesthetics look good, making it taste great. So the phrase I use is from Greg Drescher from the CIA, unapologetically delicious. So I'm hoping to have the science in my back pocket.

我是持证营养科学博士，我有科学依据。我们稍后可能会谈到这点。环境因素我也了如指掌，但人们不会用这个来强压别人。真正让人震撼的是——哦，这绝对会惊艳你的味蕾。

I'm a card carrying PhD nutrition scientist. I got the science. We'll probably go there later. I got the environment in my back pocket too, but don't people don't beat people over the head with that. Beat people over the head with, oh, this is gonna blow your freaking taste buds away.

这真是太棒了。

This is so good.

嗯，这是个不错的激励。

Well, that's a good incentive.

与厨师合作一直非常有趣。

Working with chefs has been very fun.

是的。这是个很好的激励。我想借此机会提议——你不必接受，但至少开始摒弃'植物基'这个荒谬的命名。我必须再次强调，我在公共卫生和教育领域投入了大量时间。命名方式至关重要。

Yeah. That's a good incentive. I would like to just offer the opportunity, you don't have to take it, but offer the opportunity to finally at least start to do away with this ridiculous naming, which is plant based. I mean, I have to say that, again, I've spent a good amount of time in the public health sphere and public education sphere. How things are named means everything.

新名字。

New names.

这听起来像是个心理问题。

That sounds like a psychological problem.

你知道，这些对我来说是新概念，因为我以前没听说过可行的模式。但这些问题确实困扰我很久了，很明显，巨型农场和工厂化肉类——我是说，世界上没人会认为工厂化养殖的肉类，比如那些养牛场是好的。我觉得没人会这么认为，甚至包括经营者。只是替代方案变得异常困难。所以听到这个厨师项目我真的很感激。

You know, these are new concepts to me in the sense that I've not heard before what the what the sort of tractable model is. But certainly, these issues have been on my mind for a long time as, you know, it's become clear that, you know, mega farms and factory meat I mean, I don't think anyone in the world would say that factory farmed meat, like these, you know, cattle houses are are good. I don't I don't think anyone would, except maybe even the people who own them. It just seems that what to do become instead becomes excessively challenging. So I'm really grateful to hear about this chef's program.

我希望新政府的人员能关注这个问题。他们声称对这些议题很感兴趣，而且他们掌握着实现这种变革的巨大权力。如果他们请你提供建议或帮助，你愿意吗？现在事情变得太党派化了。

I'm hoping that folks in the new administration will pay attention to this. They claim to be very interested in these sorts of issues, and they wield a lot of power to be able to make this kind of change possible. So were they to ask you to advise or help? Would you be willing to do that? Things have become so partisan now.

我很好奇，如果新政府说'加德纳，我们需要你的意见'，你愿意与他们合作吗？你知道的？

I'm just curious, like, are you willing to work with the new administration if they said, hey, listen, like, Gardner, like, we we need we need your input. Would you? You know?

绝对愿意。而且不会只是我个人的参与。我现在在斯坦福很开心，正因为这个新成立的可持续发展学院对此感兴趣。他们非常为农民、牧场主和渔民着想。其实这个可持续发展学院是从地球科学学院发展出来的。

Absolutely. And it wouldn't just be mine. I'm I'm having a blast at Stanford right now just because this new school of sustainability is interested. This very much thinking of the farmers and the ranchers and the fishers. I mean, this really the school sustainability sort of grew out of the earth science school.

所以那里很多人一直在研究土地、水和空气，他们始终寻求跨领域的双赢方案。这就是其中之一。

And so a lot of those people have been working with land and water and air, and it they're always looking for that win win across all sectors. So that's one of them.

是的。我们来谈谈蛋白质吧。

Yeah. Let's talk about protein.

好的。我们还有六个小时还是只有四个小时？

Okay. Do we have six more hours or just four?

不。但我们会简化处理。

No. But we're gonna make it simple.

好的。我试试看。

Okay. I'll try.

我先从我自己说起，我认为基本上每一位谈到营养的嘉宾，比如彼得·阿蒂亚医生、加布里埃尔·里昂医生。

I'll just start off by saying that I, and I would say, essentially, every guest that's touched on nutrition, Peter Attia, Doctor. Gabrielle Lyon.

-斯泰西·西姆斯。

-Stacy Sims.

-斯泰西·西姆斯、莱恩·诺顿——他拥有生物化学和营养学学位。所以在这群人里，他可能接受过最正规的营养学和生物化学培训。还有其他几位提出了我认为合理的论点，试着别惊讶，克里斯托弗。是的。一克优质蛋白质。

-Stacy Sims, Lane Norton, who is degreed in biochemistry and nutrition. So he probably, of those people, has had the most formal training in nutrition and biochemistry. And several others have made a what I consider a reasonable argument for and try not to gasp here, Christopher. Yeah. One gram of quality protein.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

所以高生物利用度，高蛋白热量比。每磅去脂体重需要一克这样的蛋白质。

So high bioavailability, high protein to calorie ratio. One gram of that per lean pound of body weight.

不是每公斤

Not kilogram per

每磅。是每磅。

pound. Per pound.

哦，是关于去脂体重的吗？

Oh, and of lean body weight?

关于去脂体重。医生。加布里埃尔·莱恩对此非常精确。有时当媒体——主流媒体，现在已经不再是主流了——谈论它时，她的话会被曲解，但他们稍微扭曲了她的话，是按每磅去脂或理想体重计算的。因为这能根据体脂百分比进行调整。

Of lean body weight. Doctor. Gabrielle Lyne is very precise about this. Sometimes her words get twisted when when the media, the mainstream media, which is now no longer mainstream, talks about it, but they've contorted her words a little bit, it's per pound of lean or desired body weight. Because that adjusts for this, you know, for body fat percentage.

对吧？如果你肌肉量很多——

Right? If you're carrying a lot of muscle-

是的。

Yeah.

这与你在大量脂肪下肌肉较少的情况非常不同。所以即便如此，这些数字与你写过的数字相比还是相当高的。而且不是每公斤，是每磅。对吧？所以我体重210磅。

It's very different than if you're carrying less muscle under a lot of fat. So even so, that those numbers are pretty high compared to the numbers that you've written about. And it's not per kilogram, it's per pound. Right? So I weigh two hundred and ten pounds.

我大致目标是每天摄入175到215克之间的优质蛋白质。那么你对这些建议有什么看法？然后我们可以来回讨论，希望能得出某种结论，让人们可以自己做决定。

I loosely aim for somewhere between a hundred and seventy five 215 grams of quality protein per day. So what are your thoughts about those recommendations? And then we'll kinda go back and forth and hopefully come to some sort of conclusion that people can make their own decision about.

好的。那么首先切入一个超级重要的事实：如果你今天摄入过量蛋白质，能为明天储存多少？就像你在对冲风险一样，你认为那175克蛋白质中有多少能用于肌肉？非常少。

Yep. Okay. So a super important fact just to dive in right off the bat is how much protein do you store if you ate in excess today for tomorrow? Like if you were just hedging your bets, how much of that 175 grams of protein do you think you applied to muscle? Very little.

我猜你现在并没有在增肌。你体重稳定，肌肉量稳定？

You're not gaining muscle right now. I'm gonna guess. You're stable weight, stable muscle?

差不多。我的意思是，可能这里那里长一点肌肉。但是，是的，体重稳定，肌肉量稳定。所以我会说，很少会用于维持水平的蛋白质合成。任何由运动刺激的部分，仍然非常少。

Pretty much. I mean, maybe a little muscle here and there. But, yes, stable weight, stable muscle. So I would say very little is going to go into their sort of maintenance levels of protein synthesis. Anything that I stimulated by exercise, still very little.

我完全接受大部分蛋白质摄入被用作能量的观点。事实上，我很高兴这样，因为将蛋白质转化为能量的代谢成本较高，而其他热量形式的转化成本较低。我也对此感到满意，因为它味道好。我吃的肉营养密度很高。我吃的肉、蛋等等，在其他营养素方面非常密集，比如健康脂肪，尤其是鱼类或类似食物。

I'm perfectly fine with the idea that much of that protein intake is used as energy. In fact, I'm delighted with it because the conversion of that protein to energy is metabolically costly in a way that conversion of other caloric forms is less costly. And I'm also happy with it because it tastes good. The meat I eat is very dense. The meat, eggs, etcetera, that I eat is very dense in other nutrients, like healthy fats, especially for fish or for things of that sort.

而且我必须吃点东西。我有热量需求。嗯哼。如果我吃太多淀粉，我会犯困，感觉不舒服，我不能耐受乳制品，我喜欢水果和蔬菜，但如果我吃太多水果和蔬菜，我也会感觉糟糕，因为我的肠道只能承受这么多纤维。所以这就是对我有效的方法，因为它基本上满足了我所有寻找的东西，对吧？

And I have to eat something. I have a caloric need. Uh-huh. And if I eat too many starches, I get sleepy, I feel lousy, I don't tolerate dairy, I love fruits and vegetables, but if I eat too many fruits and vegetables, I feel lousy because my gut can only take so much fiber. So that's what's worked for me because it basically establishes all the things that I'm looking for, right?

我想要足够的纤维，但又不能多到让我腹胀、胀气或感觉不适，

I want enough fiber, but not so much that I'm bloated or gassy or not feeling well,

或者我

or I

得一直跑洗手间。我想要蛋白质合成，并满足任何运动引起的需求，但我也喜欢它的味道。是的。而且我喜欢它带来的好处，并且我从优质来源获取它。所以我很难反驳这个论点，我和其他人一样喜欢米饭，但如果我吃两大碗米饭，我会感觉像垃圾一样。

have to run to the restroom all the time. I want a protein synthesis and to cover any, you know, exercise induced needs, but I also like the way it tastes. Yeah. And I like what it brings with it, and I source it from quality sources. So it's hard for me to punch a hole in that argument, and I like rice as much as the next person, but if I eat two big bowls of rice, I feel like garbage.

如果我吃一碗米饭，配上一小块草饲肉、一大份沙拉、一些蔬菜和一些浆果作为甜点，我会感觉像国王一样。是的。

If I eat one bowl of rice with a nice little piece of grass fed meat and a big salad and some vegetables and some berries for dessert, I feel like a king. Yeah.

所以那相当不错。

So That's pretty good.

是的。我在一克蛋白质上哪里出错了？因为我在你的论文和其他地方看到的推荐量要低得多。

Yeah. Where am I going wrong with one gram? Because the the recommendations that I've seen in your papers and others are much, much lower.

所以我不确定那是不是我的推荐。部分原因只是指出蛋白质的基础知识。这里有一些相当荒谬的误区。好的。所以如果我们从头开始，如果我讲得太深入，请随时打断我。

So I'm not sure if they've been my recommendations. Part of it is just sort of pointing out protein 101. There's some myths here that are pretty ridiculous. Okay. So if we were to start at the beginning and if I go too far down the rabbit hole, feel free to stop me.

我在伯克利获得了博士学位。部分蛋白质的膳食推荐是由伯克利的多丽丝·卡洛韦和雪莱·摩根建立的。在摩根大厅，第五层被称为顶楼。在越南战争时期，良心反战者如果同意成为研究参与者并住进顶楼，就可以免于参战。他们每天穿上蓝色的祖特套装，那里有厨房设施和床铺，他们一次好几个月都不允许离开，以进行这项研究。

I got my PhD at Berkeley. Part of the dietary recommendations for protein were established by Doris Calloway and Shelley Morgan at Berkeley. In Morgan Hall, the Fifth Floor is called the penthouse. And in the days of the Vietnam War, conscientious war objectors were allowed out of the war if they would be study participants and go up in the penthouse, where they put on blue zoot suits every single day. And there was a kitchen facility up there and there were beds, and they were not allowed to leave for months at a time to do this study.

他们做了所谓的氮平衡研究，如今蛋白质学界对此嗤之以鼻，并说这是确定蛋白质需求的一种可怕方式。但在当时，超级聪明。所以想象一下，那是五十、六十、七十年前，不管具体是多久以前。蛋白质是你体内氮的主要来源。如果你做那种炸弹量热计实验，炸开并燃烧你的整个身体，矿物质会留下来。

And they did what are called nitrogen balance studies, which today the protein community despises and says this is a horrific way to determine protein needs. But in the day, super clever. So picture that you're fifty, sixty, seventy years ago, however many however long ago it was now. Protein is the main source of nitrogen in your body. If you were to do one of these bomb calorimeter things that blew up and burned your whole body, minerals would be left.

你无法摆脱矿物质，而氮就在那个清单上。所以实际上你可以对你吃的食物进行氮分析，它会告诉你食物中有多少蛋白质。如果你整天穿着蓝色连体服，收集你的粪便、尿液、鼻涕、脱落的头发、脱落的皮肤、指甲，如果你捕捉到离开你身体的一切，你就会知道一天内你排出了多少蛋白质。于是有人想出了这个氮平衡研究的主意，他们让这些有良知的战争反对者穿上这些衣服数月，将他们的蛋白质摄入降至零，这时他们意识到，哇，这太神奇了。当你将蛋白质降至零时，蛋白质的损失会减少，因为你的身体意识到你需要更有效地利用已有的资源。

You can't get rid of minerals, and and nitrogen is in that list. And so you can actually do a nitrogen analysis of food that you're eating, and it'll tell you how much protein is in the food. And if you were to be in a blue zoot suit all day and collect your poop, your pee, your nasal blowings, the hairs that came off, the skin sloughing, the fingernail, if you captured everything that left your body, you would know how much protein you had eliminated during the day. So somebody came up with this idea for a nitrogen balance study and they took these conscientious war objectors and put them in these suits for months and they lowered their protein to zero, at which point they realized, wow, this is fascinating. The losses that you have from protein decrease as you lower your protein to zero because your body realizes you need to be more efficient with what you had.

然后他们逐渐提高饮食蛋白质水平，直到达到平衡状态。所以离开身体的蛋白质量与摄入量相同。他们称此为蛋白质需求量。就是这个量能够替代这群人的损失。不仅仅是伯克利的摩根·霍尔和顶层公寓，还有其他多个团体在别处进行这项研究，他们汇集了所有数据，说这就是需求量，并且有一个范围，有些人需要更多，有些人需要更少，我们假设它是正态分布（虽然不完全如此），但经过这一切，他们得出了对我们研究的这个人群的估计平均需求量，这个研究是通过这种奇特的监狱监禁食物操纵实验，利用这个聚焦于氮的聪明想法，仅仅因为氮对蛋白质如此独特。

And then they raised the dietary protein level back up until they were in balance. So the amount of protein leaving the body was the same as the amount going in. And they said this is the protein requirement. It's the amount that will replace your losses in this group of people. And it wasn't just Morgan Hall and the penthouse at Berkeley, it was multiple other groups who were doing this in other places and they pooled all their data and said this is and there's a range and some people need more and some people need less and let's pretend it's a normal distribution it isn't quite but after all this they came up with what what would be an estimated average requirement for this population that we've studied in this bizarre prison incarceration food manipulation thing with this clever idea focusing on nitrogen just because it's so unique to protein.

他们得出的结果是每天每公斤体重0.66克蛋白质。不是的，没错。这就是估计平均需求量。好了，现在我们来做一些超级简单的数学。

And they came up with 0.66 grams of protein per kilogram body weight per day. Not the yeah. And this is the estimated average requirement. Okay. Now let's do some super simple math.

假设，如果你告诉美国公众，现在他们已经完成了这个怪异、恶心的任务，这就是每个人需要的量，这个估计平均需求量，然后如果每个人都恰好得到那么多蛋白质，如果选择平均需求量，那么有多少比例的人口会在这个水平上缺乏？根据定义，一半。那只是平均值。一半的人高于平均水平。所以蛋白质的推荐每日允许摄入量设定在几十年前这个恶心的氮平衡测试所确定值的两个标准差之上。

Let's say, if you told the American public, now they've done this bizarre, disgusting task, this is how much everybody requires, this estimated average requirement, and therein after everybody got exactly that much protein, What proportion of the population would be deficient at that level if they pick the average requirement? Half, by definition. That's only the average. Half of the people are above average. So the recommended daily allowance of protein is set at two standard deviations above the value determined by this disgusting nitrogen balance test decades and decades ago.

我理解蛋白质狂热群体不喜欢这个。那不是最佳蛋白质量。它就像是最低蛋白质需求。好吧，所以我完全接受那个论点。但我认为人们首先搞错的是，他们认为那个旧方法推荐的是平均需求量。

And I understand that the community of protein fanatics doesn't like that. That's not an optimal protein. It's like a minimal protein requirement. Okay, so I totally buy that argument. But I think the first thing that people get wrong is they think that that old method is recommending the average requirement.

而它不是。它有一个安全缓冲。它上面 built-in 了两个标准差，所以如果每个人都得到每天每公斤体重0.8克蛋白质，2.5%的人口会缺乏。不仅百分之九十七点五的人口会满足他们的需求，他们会超过它。如果你画图，对吧，你看到这条线，这一整群人都会超过它，而这群人不会达到它，只有一小部分人会得到他们需要的量。

And it's not. It's got a safety buffer. It's got two standard deviations built on top of it so that if everybody got that 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight per day, 2.5 of the population would be deficient. And not only would ninety seven point five percent of the population meet their requirement, they would exceed it. If you drew the graph, right, you're seeing the line, this whole group would exceed it, and this group would not meet it, and this group would get just a small sliver would get what they needed.

谢谢你的澄清。我有几个问题，我知道大家都会想到。如果可以的话，我想简单确认一下。这些受试者是谁？是男性和女性吗？

Thank you for that clarification. I I have a couple of questions I know are popping up for people. I just would like to tick off if we can. Who were these subjects? Where was it men and women?

这些是有良知的反对者，所以我想在当时我们并没有派女性去越南，所以应该只是男性。

These were conscientious objectors, so I would presume at that time we weren't sending women to Vietnam, so it would be just men.

所以这只是伯克利的情况。其他人也在做这个。不仅仅是这一个团体，我不知道其他人是谁。

So this is just at Berkeley. So other people were doing this too. It wasn't just this one group, and I don't know who the others were.

明白了。

Got it.

我只记得我是在伯克利拿到的博士学位。刚到那里时，就有人问我：想看看顶楼吗？我说：顶楼到底是什么鬼？原来顶楼是多丽丝·卡洛维和雪莱·摩根完成这项发现的地方，这可是个著名的故事。所以你知道，他们对此非常自豪。嗯。

I just remember that I got my PhD at Berkeley. It's like, as soon as I got there, people said, do wanna see the penthouse? I said, what the f is the the penthouse? The penthouse is where Doris Calloway and Shelley Morgan figured this out and, like, this is a famous thing. So, you know, they took great pride Mhmm.

那部分成果正是来自他们在伯克利的工作。

That part of that came from their work at Berkeley.

他们不得不称之为'顶楼'才能把人骗上去，因为那里发生的事听起来可一点都不愉快。是啊。

And they had to call it the penthouse to get people up there because what happened in there sounds anything but pleasant. Yeah.

确实很不愉快。

It was unpleasant.

没错。至少伯克利研究是这样。这些人待在楼上——男男女女都穿着特制服装。

Yeah. At least for the Berkeley study. These guys are up there. Guys and gals are up there. They're in these suits.

他们收集所有排泄物，不能运动，呼吸不到新鲜空气， presumably。他们不能四处走动吗？每天能走哪怕几千步吗？

They're collecting everything. They're not exercising. They're not breathing fresh air, presumably. They're not are they walking around? Are they getting even, like, a couple thousand steps a day?

我的顾虑在于——

I mean, my concern is that

哦，完全理解。是的，这些确实是需要顾虑的问题。

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. They're concerns.

我担心的是这本质上把他们变成了小白鼠。作为曾经...听着，我发表过小鼠、大鼠的研究成果，现在不做了；还有非人灵长类——这类研究我现在完全不想再碰。而另一种灵长类，就是我们人类。

My concern is that they turn them into mice, essentially. And as somebody listen. I've I've published work on mice, rats. I no longer do this, but nonhuman primates, something that I have no interest in doing anymore. And the other primates, us humans.

我深知进行一项严格控制的研究有多难。是的，极其困难。所以我理解他们为什么这么做，但这样会制造出非常人为的环境。那个比氮平衡量高出两个标准偏差的缓冲值，我认为这值得为大家重点展开说明，因为大多数人只听说'哦，那只是维持氮平衡的最低所需量'。

And I I know how hard it is to do a well controlled study. Yeah. It's extremely difficult. So I understand why they did this, but then it becomes a very artificial circumstance. The buffering with two standard deviations above this nitrogen balance amount, I think that's something really important to double click on for people because most people hear, oh, it was just a minimum amount required to maintain nitrogen balance.

但实际上，这个数字要高得多。

But in reality, it's much higher than that.

所以这是第一个误解。我觉得人们错误地认为那是平均需求量。

So that was the first one. I feel like that's a misperception that that was the average requirement.

好的。

K.

你提出的所有观点都非常关键重要。好的。那么第二个问题是：如果你摄入了一个nexus（注：此处可能为口误或特定术语），你把它储存在哪里？因为事实是，之后不久我曾在西蒙·希尔的播客上与斯图·菲利普斯辩论过，因为我们之前在推特上有过一些交流，然后大家就说，天啊，他们意见不合。

All the points you made are are dead on critical important. Okay. Then the second one is where do you store it if you've eaten a nexus? Because the the fact is right after that, I had a I had a debate with Stu Phillips at one point on Simon Hill's podcast because we had exchanged some Twitter things and said, oh my god. They disagree.

他们应该来场辩论。

They should have a debate.

斯图·菲利普斯是那种提倡纯肉饮食的人吗？

Is Stu Phillips a like a carnivore guy?

不是的。斯图·菲利普斯，抱歉，他是运动方面的专家——他在麦克马斯特大学非常擅长运动研究。好的。实际上在我们邮件交流之后（不仅仅是推特上那有限的字符），我们说，天啊，我们其实在大多数事情上看法一致。我们达成一致的原因是我们有关于美国人蛋白质摄入量的全国性数据。

So no. Stu Phillips, I'm sorry, is an exercise a fit he's super great at exercise studies at McMaster University. Okay. And after we actually emailed one another, not just tweeting however many characters you get on Twitter said, oh my god, we actually agree on most things. The reason we agreed is we have national data on what the protein intake is of Americans.

所以忘掉蛋白棒、蛋白粉和其他一切吧。普通美国人并不使用那些。平均摄入量大约是每天每公斤体重1.2克或更高。

So forget the protein bars and the protein powders and everything else. The average American doesn't do that. And the average intake is like 1.2 grams per kilogram body weight per day or higher.

是优质蛋白质吗？

Of quality protein?

就是普通食物。就是普通食物。所以我们...我们在这里停一下。就是普通食物。所以有趣的是，当斯图和我交流时，我说，斯图，你知道，你讨厌那个每公斤体重0.8克的观点。

Just just food. So just food. So let's let's stop here. Just food. So the fun thing was as Stu and I got together, I said, you know, Stu, you hate that point eight grams per kilogram body weight.

你是说人们应该每公斤体重摄入一克蛋白质，甚至可能是1.2克——1.2克比0.8克高出50%，而0.8克是美国人的平均摄入量。他说，嗯，那也是事实。所以他讨厌0.8这个数字，但他意识到这几乎是个无关紧要的数字，因为大多数人摄入的都比这个多。我刚刚在膳食指南咨询委员会任职，我们查看了同样的数据，现在依然如此。

And you're saying people should have one gram per kilogram body weight or maybe even 1.2, which would be 1.2 would be 50% higher than point eight. That's the average American intake. And he said, Well, that's true too. So he hates the 0.8, but he realized it's almost an irrelevant number because most people get more than that. I just served on the dietary guidelines advisory committee, and we looked at those same data and it's still true.

美国人在一般情况下，即使不刻意尝试、不了解，摄入的蛋白质也超过了RDA（推荐膳食摄入量）。它只是存在于比你想象中更多的食物里。所以第二个问题是，既然这么多人摄入更多，额外的部分有什么坏处吗？比如你怎么处理多余的部分？人体储存脂肪的能力几乎是无限的。

Americans eat more protein than the RDA on a general basis without trying, without knowing about it. It's just in more foods than you think. So the second issue is, well, if so many people are eating more, is there anything bad about the extra? Like what do you do with the extra? And so there's sort of infinite capacity to store fat in your body.

你可能知道脂肪储存在你的腹部、臀部、腋下，到处都有。储存碳水化合物的能力有限。我确实听过Gabrielle Lyons讲过肝脏和骨骼肌中能储存多少。但如果你是马拉松选手，跑完20英里左右四小时后你会‘撞墙’，因为你耗尽了所有的碳水储备。你可以在四小时内耗尽所有碳水储备，而耗尽脂肪则需要好多好多天，但蛋白质没有储存库。

You probably know this in your belly, your butt, in your underarms, everywhere. Limited capacity for carbohydrates store. You can store actually heard Gabrielle Lyons talk about how much is in your liver and how much is in your skeletal muscle. But if you are a marathon runner in four hours after 20 miles or so you bonk because you've exhausted all your carb stores. You can exhaust all your carb stores in four hours where it would take days and days and days of fat, but there is no storage depot for protein.

归根结底，如果你摄入的超过了所需，你不会为第二天储存任何蛋白质。它不在你的大脚趾里，不在脾脏里，也不在肝脏里。在你合成了所有你需要的酶、激素、头发、指甲和肌肉组织之后，它就无处可去了。

At the end of the day, if you ate more than you needed, you're not storing any for the next day. It's not in your big toe. It's not in your spleen. It's not in your liver. It's nowhere after you made all the enzymes, hormones, hair, fingernails, and muscle tissue that you wanted.

你分解掉氮，必须通过肾脏以氨的形式排出，然后把碳骨架转化为碳水化合物——如果我们回到生酮饮食的话题，这会让吃肉的生酮饮食者退出酮症，因为你刚刚把你为了避免碳水而吃的蛋白质转化成了你正在避免的碳水。但我们先不深入这个。暂时我们只说没有地方储存它。所以你并没有从中获得任何好处。我很有兴趣听你说你吃蛋白质是为了热量，为了能量，这没问题。

You break off the nitrogen, you have to eliminate that as ammonia in your kidney, and you turn the carbon skeleton into carbs, which if we do get back to the keto diet is throwing the meat eaters on the keto diet out of ketosis because you just turned the protein you're eating to avoid the carbs into the carbs that you're avoiding. But we won't go there. For a moment, we'll just say there's no place to store it. So you're not really getting any benefit about it. I was very interested to hear you just say you're fine eating the protein for the calories, the the energy.

嗯，因为我需要一定的热量。我也会——我并不是在故意唱反调。首先，我觉得很幸运，在很小的时候我就开始注意饮食，不是以一种神经质的方式，我就是那样做了。我想说的是，当你有一定的热量需求时——每个人都有——你会问，它要从哪里来？

Well, because I need a certain amount of calories. I would also and I'm not just playing devil's advocate here. I feel, first of all, lucky that at a very young age, I started paying attention to what I ate for not in a neurotic way. I've just did that. And I will say that when you have a certain amount of caloric need, everyone does, you ask, where's it gonna come from?

而且，你知道，吃足够多的蔬菜很好，但很难获取足量的水果和优质蛋白质。所以我指的是，嗯，就说那些你觉得好吃的东西。比如牛肉、鱼、鸡肉、鸡蛋，我想对素食者来说，可能是豆类和米饭之类的组合，或者能获取足够亮氨酸的东西。但我认为关键的一点是，你可以——这个我就从我自己的经验来说吧——我可以吃那些东西并感到饱足。

And, you know, you eat enough vegetables, great, but it's hard to get your ration Fruits, of quality protein, so I'm referring to that as, you know, let's just put the taste taste good to you. So, you know, beef, fish, chicken, eggs, and I guess for the vegetarian, some combination of like beans and rice, that type of thing, or that where you get enough leucine, this sort of thing. But the the key thing I believe is that you can that one I'll just speak from my own experience. I can eat those and feel satiated.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

大多数淀粉类食物本身味道并不好。

Most starches on their own don't taste good.

有道理

Fair

够了。我的意思是，我喜欢燕麦片加一点盐和肉桂，但大多数淀粉类食物本身味道并不好，除非你添加脂质，添加脂肪。所以我认为大多数人之所以与过多体脂作斗争，是因为他们过量摄入了淀粉与脂肪的组合。是的。不是因为他们吃多了牛排或者过量摄入。

enough. Mean, I like oatmeal with some salt and some cinnamon, but most starches don't taste good on their own unless you add lipids, you add fats. And so I would argue that most people are struggling with too much body fat because they overeat starches combined with fats. Yep. Not because they overeat steak or they're overeating.

问题不在汉堡肉饼本身。而是那个含糖的汉堡面包、奶酪，然后——我们甚至不需要讨论含糖汽水，现在这已经是明摆着的事了。关键是它塞满了各种没有营养的东西。所以我认为关键问题在于——你提到了这个观点，我并不是想为蛋白质阵营辩护，但我认为他们主张每磅体重（大致）或瘦体重摄入一克蛋白质的原因之一，是我们总得吃点东西。

It's it's not the hamburger. It's the hamburger bun that includes sugar, the cheese, and then the and the and we didn't even we don't even need to talk about sugary soda. It's just kind of a duh now. It's just that it's loaded with all sorts of things that aren't nutritious. So I I think that the the key issue with this you you pointed to this idea, and not I'm not trying to protect the protein crowd, but I think that one of the reasons that they are proponents of one gram per pound of body weight roughly, or lean body weight, is that we need to eat something.

理想情况下，我们应该吃一些味道好、能为我们提供营养，并且不需要一堆其他东西来让它变得可口的东西。是的。而且，你知道，我喜欢水果，但你不能只靠水果生活。明白吗？我也喜欢生蔬菜，但加点橄榄油它们会更好吃。

We ideally should eat something that tastes good, that provides some nutrition for us, and that is not something that requires a bunch of other things in order to make it palatable. Yep. And, you know, I love fruit, but you can't just live on fruit. You know? And I love vegetables in their raw form, but they taste better with some olive oil on them.

让蔬菜变得非常好吃并不需要太多东西，因为我本来就爱蔬菜。水果也一样。我可以一整天都直接吃它们。但淀粉类食物是个问题，因为它们带来了所谓的“需求”和偏好。问题不在于一条酸面包本身。

It doesn't take much to make a vegetable taste really good because I love vegetables. Same same for fruit. I'll eat them on their own all day. But the starches are a problem because of the the quote unquote requirements that and preferences they bring with them. The problem isn't a a loaf of sourdough bread.

问题在于巨量的黄油和橄榄油被吸收并随之摄入。我认为大多数人超重并不是因为他们吃了太多蛋白质。这就是我想表达的观点。

The problem is the immense amounts of butter and olive oil get sopped up and brought down with it. Most people I would argue are overweight not because they eat too much protein. That's the point I'm trying to make.

好吧。有道理。但是好吧。体重是另一个稍有不同的议题，如果你从肉类中获取那些，你会摄入更多饱和脂肪而不是纤维。而且我们正在用当前肉类的数量和种类摧毁这个星球。不过这个先放一放。

Okay. Fair. But okay. So weight is a little separate issue, and if you're getting that for meat, you're getting more saturated fat and not fiber, And we're destroying the planet with the amount of meat and the kind of meat that we're getting right now. But parking lot for now

除非它是可持续来源的。

Unless it's sustainably sourced.

而这在美国产的肉类中只占非常小的比例。

Which is such a small proportion of meat grown in The US.

这需要关注。这需要引起重视。

It takes attention. It takes attention.

目前大多数人还无法接触到那种（可持续肉类）。

Most people cannot access that right now.

不幸的是。我完全同意你的观点。

Unfortunately. I completely agree with you there.

所以这是个很好的评论。我很希望我们能去那里。好的，但让我继续。第一点是两个标准差。第二点是没有地方储存它。

So that is a great comment. I would love it if we went there. Okay, but let me move on. So one was the two standard deviations. Two is there's no place to store it.

你会把它转化成别的东西，第三点是你的质量问题。所以这里还有一个我们需要破除的迷思。这个迷思就是植物缺乏氨基酸，它们不完整。我敢肯定今天每个听众都听说过藜麦，据说是唯一含有全部九种必需氨基酸的植物。

You're going convert it to something else, and three is your quality thing. So here's another myth that we need to bust. So the myth part is that plants are missing amino acids. They're not complete. I'm sure everybody listening today has heard quinoa, the only plant with all nine essential amino acids.

胡说八道。所以我不知道你们能不能在播客中看到我的论文或者展示它，我把它放在我的

Bullshit. So I don't know if you can look at my paper in your podcast or show it, and I I have it on my on

节目说明的字幕里。好的。

the on the show note captions. Alright.

我们在2019年写了一篇论文，这对我来说其实挺有趣的。它源于与厨师们的合作。厨师们当时在研究我之前提到的蛋白质翻转理念，他们有点担心。他们说，关于植物缺乏氨基酸或不完整的说法是怎么回事？我对这方面了解很多，但为了那天给他们做幻灯片，我做了一件以前从未做过的事：我收集了一大堆食物，然后绘制出每种食物中各个氨基酸的含量及其比例。

So we wrote a paper in 2019, and this actually was pretty fun for me. It came from working with the chefs. The chefs were working on that protein flip idea that I mentioned earlier, They were a little worried. They said, What is the thing about the plants missing the amino acids or being incomplete? And so I knew a lot about this, but to make a slideshow for them that day, did something I had never done before and I got a whole bunch of foods and I plotted out the amounts of every single amino acid in the food in the proportions they were in.

如果你看那个每天每公斤体重0.8克的标准，并且如果你认为这超过了一些人的需求，那么根据这个计算，很多人每天需要40克蛋白质，这听起来肯定非常少。我提到这一点只是因为共有20种氨基酸。我猜普通人会想，如果我需要40克，而有20种氨基酸，那么每种氨基酸我需要2克。但这完全不是它的工作原理。它实际上更像拼字游戏（Scrabble）的机制。

If you looked at that 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight per day and if you thought that exceeded the needs of some people it's plausible that a lot of people by that calculation need 40 grams of protein a day, which sounds I'm sure very little. And I'm only bringing that up because there's 20 amino acids. And I would assume the average person would think, well, if I needed 40 and there's 20 amino acids, I would need two grams of every amino acid. And that is totally not the way it works. It actually works more like the board game of Scrabble.

当你抽字母时，袋子里有100个拼字字母，字母表有26个字母，看起来似乎每个字母在袋子里有四个。但你们都知道只有一个Z，一个Y，一个X，或者也许有两个Y。但有大量的E、M和R。你的氨基酸就像这样。所以你需要大量的赖氨酸和亮氨酸，但只需要很少的蛋氨酸或半胱氨酸。

So when you're drawing, there's a 100 Scrabble letters in the bag, and there's 26 letters in the alphabet, and almost seems like there'd be four of each letter in the bag. But you all know there's only one Z, and one Y, and one X, or maybe there's two Ys. But there's a crap ton of Es and M's and R's. And your amino acids are just like that. So you need a crap ton of lysine and leucine, and you need very little methionine or cysteine.

所以把这些图表放在一起真的很有趣。我说，这是鸡蛋，这是牛肉，这是三文鱼，这是猪肉。准备好，因为我要给你们看豆类、米饭、谷物和水果。我关注的是比例。我得说，按热量计算，肉类的蛋白质含量比植物高。

So it was really fun in putting these graphics together. I said, here's eggs, here's beef, here's salmon, here's pork. Get ready because I'm gonna show you beans and rice and grains and fruit. And I'm focusing on proportion. I will say per calorie meat has more protein than plants.

这仅仅是从热量的角度。但从比例上看，其中一个迷思是关于缺失或不完整的氨基酸。因为如果你据此制作图表，你会看到所有植物都他妈的有全部20种氨基酸。它们都有赖氨酸。它们都有蛋氨酸和半胱氨酸。

And just in terms of calories. But proportion wise, one of the myths is the missing amino acids or the incomplete ones. Because if you make a graphic out of this, you will see all plants have all goddamn 20 amino acids. They all have lysine. They all have methionine and cysteine.

他们认为缺失某些氨基酸的观点是错误的。认为必须搭配豆类和谷物的想法也是错的，除非你摄入的蛋白质非常少。在那种情况下，搭配确实重要。但要获取大量氨基酸其实并不难。你提到了蛋白质的质量问题。

And the idea that they're missing is wrong. The idea that you have to complement your beans and grains is wrong unless you're getting very little protein. At that point, it is important to complement them. But it's really not hard to get a lot of amino acids. You mentioned the quality of your protein.

如果你每天摄入175克蛋白质，质量根本无关紧要——你只需要60-70克就能满足需求，我认为多余的部分都会转化为碳水化合物。所以

If you're getting a 175 grams of protein a day, quality doesn't matter who you like. You met your your needs at 60 or 70 grams, and I think you're converting the rest to carbs. So the

抱歉打断你（虽然我是故意的）。我说的质量是指：在不过度摄入热量的前提下，获取所需蛋白质。

Sorry myth to interrupt you, but I'm gonna do it intentionally. The the idea is to get when I say quality is to get the the protein that one seeks without overdoing caloric intake.

明白。

K.

这对淀粉类食物来说很难实现。

That gets tough with starches.

明白。

K.

非常难。半碗米饭——确实不太容易产生饱腹感（至少对我来说）。我宁愿选择四分之一碗牛排，而不是靠两碗米饭维持生存。

Very tough. I mean, a half a bowl of rice Yep. Is is not very satiating, at least for me. I'll take a quarter of a bowl of steak over over two bowls of rice to survive on now and forever.

是的。我不会选择谷物。谷物的蛋白质含量只有10%左右，豆类有20%，大豆能达到40%。

Yeah. And I wouldn't go with the grains. So grains are only like 10% protein. Beans are 20%. Soybeans are like 40%.

实际上大豆的氨基酸组成优于其他豆类。亚洲人长期食用豆浆、天贝和豆腐是非常明智的。但有趣的是，美国与其他国家相比，豆类摄入量少得可怜。豆类其实用途广泛——加纳有红腰豆，地中海地区有鹰嘴豆泥，拉丁美洲有墨西哥卷饼等等。

And actually the amino acid profile of soy is better than any other beans. So the Asians who were doing soy milk, tempeh tofu for so long, pretty smart. But actually there's an interesting issue in The US compared to other countries in the world is how few beans we eat. And beans are super versatile. So you got red red in Ghana, and you've got hummus in the Mediterranean, you've got tacos and burritos and things in Latin America.

印度有豆糊和扁豆等食品。整个豆科家族是素食者最优质的蛋白质来源。很遗憾有人总说'植物蛋白质量差、缺乏氨基酸'。但事实上（参考两个标准差理论），人体没有储存多余氨基酸的机制，植物蛋白比大多数人想象的更好——这就是为什么存在纯素食健美运动员。

Indian, you've got dolls and lentils and things like that. That whole legume family is the best source of quality protein for the plant eaters. And so it's really a shame that the sort of the quality thing is that, oh, plant foods don't have quality protein, they're missing amino acids. So if I can add that to the pool, so the two standard deviations, no place to store it, and plants are better sources of protein than most people think. And so that's why there are vegan bodybuilders.

你可以完全依靠植物蛋白在健美比赛中赢得金牌，因为它们并不缺乏。所以我想帮助消除这个误解，它们并不缺失。它们并非不存在。蛋白质的比例确实有讲究。稍后我会分享一张氨基酸热图网格给你看。

You can win a gold medal in a bodybuilding competition strictly on plant proteins because they're not missing. So if I could just help dispel that myth, they're not missing. They're not absent. There is something to the proportions of proteins. So if you were to see the grid of the the heat map of amino acids that I'll share with you later.

我之前看过这个，我想说比例问题——我们或许专注于亮氨酸，因为大多数听众都熟悉亮氨酸是肌肉生长的关键氨基酸（对于只听音频的听众，我做了空气引号手势）。在这种情况下，不同蛋白质来源的表现如何？

I looked at this prior to this, and I will say that the the proportions of let's just concentrate on leucine perhaps, since most listeners will be familiar with leucine as kind of the critical one for muscle building. I've got that in air quotes for those just listening. What does how do the different sources for protein play out in that case?

几乎完全相同。在我列出的所有食物中都是如此。植物性食物中亮氨酸不是问题。植物性食物的问题在于谷物缺乏赖氨酸，而豆类缺乏蛋氨酸。它们被称为限制性氨基酸，因为如果只吃谷物或只吃豆类，这些氨基酸会首先耗尽，那样就糟糕了。

Almost identical. All the way down the list of foods that I have. Leucine is not a problem in plant food. The problem in plant food is it's low in lysine for grains and it's low in methionine for beans. They're actually called limiting amino acids because they would run out for if you only ate grains or you only ate beans, they would run out first, and then you'd be screwed.

你无法用其他氨基酸替代某种激素或酶所需的特定氨基酸。你必须按所需比例拥有所有氨基酸。这就是互补性概念的来源——谷物虽然赖氨酸含量低，但蛋氨酸略高；而豆类蛋氨酸含量低，但赖氨酸略高。如果一起吃，它们的比例就更接近肉类。当然肉类仍然更好。

You can't actually substitute another amino acid for a hormone or an enzyme. You have to have all the amino acids in the proportions you want. And that's where the complementary thing came in because grains, although they're low in lysine, are a little high in methionine and beans which are low in methionine are a little high in lysine. If you ate them together, would be closer to their proportions in meat. It's still meat would still be better.

因为动物就是动物，我们曾经也是动物。动物体内的比例是完美的。但在我向厨师们做演讲的这次会议上，大多数人都惊呆了。他们简直不敢相信比例如此相似？天啊，这太令人震惊了，它们竟然如此相似。

It has like because animals are animals and were animals. The proportions are are perfect in animals. But what most people in this conference where I presented to the chefs, they're like, jaws are on the floor. Like, seriously, the proportions are that similar? God, that is mind boggling that they're that similar.

我意识到它们并不完美。

I realize they're not perfect.

这是基于等热量比较吗？是100卡路里的

Was this made equivalent for calories? Was it a 100 calories of