基因如何影响你的冒险行为与道德观 | 凯瑟琳·佩奇·哈登博士

当你在子宫内发育时，大脑中的GABA系统（抑制性）和谷氨酸系统（兴奋性）正在被调节，就像这两者之间的平衡正在被调整。

as your brain is developing while you're in utero, the GABA system, which is inhibitory, and the glutamate system, which is excitatory, sort of being tuned, like in the balance between those two things is being worked out.

如果儿童是足月出生，这对其心理发展产生负面影响的部分原因在于它影响了抑制和兴奋之间的平衡。

If children are born free term, part of the reason that that affects their psychological development negatively is because it affects this balance between inhibition and expectation.

所以我认为我们在这方面仍处于非常初级的阶段，正在理解其生物学注释和生物学机制。

So I think we're still very at the beginning of this, understanding the bio annotation of it, the biological mechanisms of it.

但这向我们表明，有时候你会听到，比如，ADHD是一种神经发育障碍。

But what it suggests to us is that, you know, sometimes you hear, like, ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder.

我认为物质使用障碍与注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）一样，都是一种神经发育障碍。

I think that substance use disorders are every bit as a neurodevelopmental disorder as ADHD.

我认为以冲动性攻击为特征的行为障碍，与注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）一样，都是一种神经发育障碍。

I think conduct disorder, which is characterized by impulsive aggression, is every bit a neurodevelopmental disorder as ADHD.

因为如果你观察导致这些疾病的基因，它们似乎在大脑发育的极早期就影响了这种模式，以及大脑抑制与兴奋之间的平衡。

Because if you look at the genes that are causing them, they seem to be affecting this pattern of brain development very, very early in life, and this balance between the brain's inhibition and excitation.

真有意思。

Fascinating.

我的意思是，我得小心别陷入这个死胡同，但我最初是一名发育神经生物学家。

I mean, I have to be careful not to go down this rabbit hole, but I started off as a developmental neurobiologist.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，胎儿的大脑布线确实是这样。

So, know, fetal brain wiring is Yeah.

我们在这档播客里从未真正讨论过胎儿接触激素的影响，

We've never really talked about it on this podcast, but we've talked about the effect of fetal exposure to hormones

对。

Yeah.

尤其是关于大脑的性分化方面。

In the brain in particular, in terms of sexual differentiation.

但确实，胎儿期有很多事情在发生。

But yeah, there's a ton going on in there Yeah.

在这些阶段。

At these stages.

当我听到你广泛谈论兴奋与抑制之间的平衡，以及这种平衡被破坏或改变时，如何增加了某种行为障碍或行为选择出现的可能性。

And when I hear you talk broadly about the balance between excitation and inhibition, and some disruption in that, or some alteration in that setting up a probability of the expression of some behavioral disorder or choice, set of choices.

这让我更广泛地思考大脑功能：这种平衡的失调是否在某种程度上促使人们选择使用某种物质或做出冲动行为？

It makes me wonder about brain function more broadly is, does that somehow make these choices to use a given substance or to do a impulsive behavior?

我们必须小心不要妄加推测，但这是不是一种试图恢复这种平衡的尝试？

We have to be careful not to project, but is it an attempt to restore some sort of order to that balance?

还是说，这仅仅是失衡系统的一种表现？

Or is it an expression of an imbalance system?

这就像一个不会完全倾倒到一侧或另一侧的跷跷板。

It's just a seesaw that doesn't tilt all the way to one side or the other.

我觉得这是个非常好的问题，但我也不知道答案。

I think that's a really good question, and I don't know the answer to that.

当你与正在经历物质使用障碍的人交谈时，有时会听到他们讲述的故事，非常符合自我治疗的框架。

When you talk to people who are experiencing a substance use disorder, sometimes you hear narratives that are very much in this kind of self medication frame.

对吧？

Right?

比如，服用了这种物质后，我感觉正常了。

Like, took this substance and it made me feel normal.

在服用之前，我并不觉得正常。

And I didn't feel normal before I had that.

但这并不是所有人的情况。

But that's not everyone.

我的意思是，成瘾是一种非常异质性的疾病。

I mean, addiction is a very heterogeneous disorder.

因此，我认为人们对自身有害物质使用动机的认知，以及这些动机如何与大脑机制相关，又如何与早期神经发育相关，我们目前还不清楚这些联系的具体细节。

And so I think people's perceptions of their motivations to engage in substance use that's harmful for them, and then how does that relate to the brain mechanism, and then how does that relate to early neurodevelopment, I don't think we know, you know, the specifics of those links to the extent that you exist yet.

我的同事安娜·莱姆克，她写了《反常国度》。

My colleague, Anna Lemke, who wrote Tropamine Nation.

是的。

Yeah.

她曾说过，许多成瘾者——无论是行为成瘾，也就是所谓的过程成瘾，还是化学成瘾——都有一种感觉，那就是除非体验到强烈的刺激，否则生活似乎没有真正发生。

She once said that many addicts, behavioral addictions, guess they call them process addictions or chemical addictions, that they have this feeling that unless they're experiencing something really intense, like life isn't really happening.

他们渴望这种强烈的经验。

Like they crave this intensity of experience.

他们追求极致的体验。

They want peak experience.

是的。

Yeah.

要么是为了麻痹自己。

Either to numb themselves.

我的意思是，对于镇静剂来说，这可能是一种低谷体验，但这句话让我印象深刻，它暗示并非每个人都追求这种极端状态。

I mean, it could be a trough experience in the case of sedatives, but that stuck with me implied in that is that not everyone is seeking these kind of extreme states.

结合你刚才描述的兴奋与抑制的平衡，我不禁想，那些深受成瘾困扰的人，是否是在渴望摆脱过度的抑制或过度的兴奋？但这可能是一个过于简化的假设。

And so layered on what you just described in terms of excitation, inhibition balance, I kind of wonder if people who struggle with addiction are, they're craving getting out of too much inhibition or too much excitation, but this is probably an overly simplistic hypothesis.

所以，想到这种寻求感觉的倾向，那种对强度的追求，通常当我们看到有些人尽管明知这种行为对自己和他人有负面影响，却仍长期持续时。

So just thinking about that sensation seeking thing, that driving for intensity, usually when we think of people who are chronically engaging in some behavior despite it having negative consequences for themselves and other people.

这可能是药物使用，也可能是攻击行为，或是高风险的性行为。

So this could be drug use, this could be aggression, this could be risky sexual behavior.

我们通常可以想到人格和气质中起作用的三个维度。

We can typically think of three dimensions of personality and temperament that are often at play.

其中一个就是对强度的寻求驱动。

And one of them is this sensation seeking drive for intensity.

我想要。

So I want it.

我想要。

I want it.

而且我要很多。

And I want a lot of it.

对吧？

Right?

另一个是缺乏抑制，自我控制的失败。

And then one is this disinhibition, failure of self control.

我无法控制自己。

I can't stop myself.

而另一个因素，我认为研究得较少，就是人们所说的敌对性或冷漠，即我知道这对别人有负面后果，但我并不真的在意。

And then another, which I think is less well studied, is what people call antagonism or callousness, which is I know this has negative consequences for other people, but I don't really care.

比如，这对我来说没什么大不了的。

Like, that doesn't bother me.

我认为，每个人行为背后的这些因素组合其实差异很大。

And I think what you see is that the combination of factors that goes into any one person's behavior can really vary.

所以对一些人来说，这种感觉很棒。

So for some people, it's like, this feels great.

这种感觉很好。

This feels good.

我想要那种高潮感。

I want the high.

我希望它足够强烈。

I want it to be intense.

我并没有失去自控力。

I'm not disinhibited.

我是在有意识地寻求这种行为。

I'm deliberately seeking out this behavior.

你知道，我整个星期都在计划去俱乐部要用的药物，也规划了之后的一周。

You know, I plan the drugs that I'm gonna use for the club the whole week, and I plan my week afterwards.

这根本不是缺乏自控力。

It's not it's not disinhibited at all.

这是非常有目的性的。

It's very purposeful.

然后有些人是这样的：我本来没计划，但到了俱乐部，有人给了我这个，我就控制不住自己。

And then there are people that are like, I wasn't planning, but now I'm at the club and someone offered this to me and I can't stop myself.

还有些人是这样的：我不喜欢它。

And then other people are like, I'm not I like it.

明白吗？

Okay?

我能控制住自己。

And I could stop myself.

但是那些人们不断唠叨的负面后果，你知道的，比如我的伴侣不喜欢这样，或者警察不喜欢这样。

But these negative cons the consequences that people keep harping on, you know, the fact that my partner doesn't like this or the police don't like this.

就像，哦，你知道，我其实无所谓。

Like, oh, you know, I'm indifferent.

对吧？

Right?

总而言之，我认为我们需要意识到，不同的人在从事这些行为时，其动机的复杂性和异质性。

And so all that to say, I think we need to be aware of the complexity and the heterogeneity of different people's motivations when they're doing these behaviors.

是的，如今我们经常听到创伤在成瘾中的作用。

Yeah, and these days we hear a lot about the role of trauma in addiction.

我的意思是，我每次发布关于成瘾生物学的帖子或播客，都会听到有人说这与创伤有关。

I mean, I can't do a single post or podcast about addiction the biology and not hear, well, it's trauma related.

但当然，基因来自我们的父母。

But of course, genes come from our parents.

我们稍后会讨论这一点，关于易怒性。

We'll talk about that, irritability.

所以代际创伤，或者仅仅是童年创伤，甚至不必是跨代的，它可能以一种复杂的方式层层叠加。

And so generational trauma, or just childhood trauma, doesn't even have to be transgenerational, it can get layered in there in a complicated way.

是的。

Yes.

我并不是想说创伤不起作用，显然它确实有影响，但似乎基因可能是首要因素——父母的创伤、子女的创伤、造成创伤，你知道，受伤的人会伤害他人，这是少数经得起时间检验的陈词滥调之一

And I'm not trying to say that trauma doesn't play a role, clearly it does, but it seems that genes could be primary trauma in the parents, trauma in the children, traumatizing, you know, hurt people, hurt people, you know, it's the one cliche that seems to, you know, stand the test of I

我认为很难说什么是首要或次要的，因为所有因素都在相互影响

think it's very hard to say that something is primary or secondary because everything's interacting with everything else.

其中一个科学挑战，也是我们经常目睹的人间悲剧，就是那些具有遗传风险、并将这些风险传给孩子的父母，同时也是这些孩子的照料者。

One of the scientific challenges, and then also one of the very human tragedies that we often see, is that the parents who have genetic risks, who are passing those on to their kids, are also the caregivers for those kids.

因此，那些最需要坚定、温暖、稳定、滋养型养育方式的孩子，也最不可能得到它，因为父母们自己也在应对自身的问题，过着他们自己复杂的生活。

And so the kids who would most benefit from firm, warm, stable, nurturing parenting are also the least likely to get it because the parents themselves are also dealing with their own stuff and they're also leading their own complicated lives.

所以这是一幅复杂的织锦。

And so it's a tapestry.

就像一块布料有经线和纬线一样。

Like, there's a warp and a weft to a piece of cloth.

有线程是这样走的，也有那样走的。

There's the threads that go this way and this way.

我认为这就是我如何看待基因与早期创伤之间的关系：它们真正交织在一起，塑造了大脑、身体和人格，而这些后来又会让人在面对某些行为时感到挣扎。

And I think that's how I think about the relationship between genes and trauma early experience, is that really they both are woven together to build the brain and the body and the personality that then struggles with these behaviors later on in their life.

所以，如果我们能在进入青春期前获取我们的基因组，

So if we were to have access to our genomes heading into adolescence or

我们的

to our

以及孩子的基因组，根据你的研究和其他人的研究，我们大概能知道哪些基因会增加冲动行为、成瘾行为、滥交等倾向，我认为这些信息会很有用，对吧？

kids' genomes, and we know based on your work and the work of others, presumably that some of the genes that predispose to impulsive behavior, addictive behavior, promiscuity, etcetera, that would be useful information I would think, right?

那么人们就可以谨慎地选择朋友、安排环境，建立缓冲机制，听起来可能有点机械，但你知道，我可以身边围绕一些能帮助我抵御这些基因倾向的人，正如你刚才所说，这些基因倾向无疑会与环境倾向交织在一起。

Then one could think carefully about friend choices, situational choices, install buffers, you know, it sounds so mechanical, but you know, I have people around who can help buffer against these genetic predispositions, which no doubt, as you just said, weave into situational predispositions.

为什么人们不想要这些信息？还是说他们其实想要？

Why don't people want that information or do they want that information?

因为我记得在八十年代，人们常说：哦，很快我们就能知道自己的基因组，从而预知是否会有亨廷顿病。

Because I remember in the eighties hearing, oh, you know, soon we're gonna have genomes and you can know if you're gonna get Huntington's.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种极具破坏性的退行性疾病。

This, you know, a very destructive degenerative disorder.

然后人们说，我不想得知这个信息。

Then people said, well, I wouldn't wanna know.

我的意思是，我相信很多人也想了解。

I mean, I think many people would also want to know.

尤其是父母，只要他们能克服内疚感——认为这与自己有关——我认为他们会希望帮助孩子避免这些倾向，因为我们讨论的大多数都是适应不良的倾向？

And especially parents, if they can just get past their guilt that it has something to do with them, I think they'd want to help their kids avoid these predispositions, given that most of what we're talking about are maladaptive predispositions?

因此，这是一个复杂且正在迅速发展的研究领域，即当你将遗传信息返还给人们时会发生什么。

So this is a complicated and really rapidly growing area of research, which is what happens if you return people's genetic information back to them.

如果你曾经做过23andMe或某种直接面向消费者的基因检测公司，你可能会收到这样的信息：这是你患克罗恩病的遗传风险。

So if you have ever done 23andMe or some sort of direct to consumer genetics company, you might have gotten like, this is your genetic risk for Crohn's disease.

或者这是你患帕金森病或阿尔茨海默病的遗传风险。

Or this is your genetic risk for Parkinson's or Alzheimer's.

现在有更多公司正在扩展这方面的基因信息，涵盖许多基因指数，我们称之为多基因指数或多基因评分，这些指数与某人发展酒精使用障碍的风险相关。

And now there are more companies that are expanding into that genetic information around many gene indices, we call them polygenic indices or polygenic scores, that are correlated with someone's risk for developing an alcohol use disorder, say.

我认为这里有几件事需要牢记。

I think there's a couple of things to keep in mind here.

一是我们的基因信息正在迅速改进。

One is that our genetic information is rapidly improving.

它在预测个体结果方面仍然不太准确。

It's still not very good at the level of predicting an outcome for an individual.

举个例子，你可以认为海拔较高的城市往往更冷。

So as an example, you can think cities that are at higher altitude tend to be colder.

比如，这是一种相关性。

Like, that's a correlation.

这种相关性大约在0.45左右。

That's a correlation of around point 4.5.

你可以知道，如果你在思考哪些城市平均上比其他城市更冷。

You can know that if you're trying to think about, okay, well, which cities are colder on average than others?

这并不能告诉你，如果你下周二要去蒙特利尔，是否需要带毛衣？

That's not gonna tell you, do you need to pack a sweater if you're going to Montreal next Tuesday?

对吧？

Right?

这属于具体的天气情况。

Like, that's a specific weather incident.

目前的多基因评分就像是，我可以告诉你，一般来说，某些人比另一些人风险更高。

Polygenic scores right now are like I can tell you that, you know, in general, like, people have a higher risk than these people.

但它们既不是妊娠测试，也不是亨廷顿病测试。

But they're not they're not a pregnancy test or even a Huntington's disease test.

它们并不能预测，比如，

They're not prognosticators of, like,

一个

an

个体患酒精使用障碍的风险。

individual person's risk for an alcohol use disorder.

这其中存在一些不确定性。

There's some uncertainty there.

另一个问题是，告诉某人他们的遗传风险较低，尤其是在我们对此不确定的情况下，其伦理考量是什么？

The other question is what are the ethics of telling someone that they have a low genetic risk, especially if we're uncertain about that?

就像你多次谈到的，平均而言，不饮酒比少量饮酒对你更有益。

Like, you've talked a lot about how, you know, no alcohol on average is better for you than some alcohol.

我们考虑的是告诉某人他们天生倾向于负面生活结果的风险。

We think about the risks of telling someone that they're genetically predisposed towards a negative life outcome.

但告诉某人他们没有遗传倾向也存在风险，因为这是否会让他们将此解读为可以喝更多的许可？

But there's also risk to telling someone that they're not genetically proposed because is that going to are they going to interpret that as license to drink more?

我不需要担心那个。

I don't need to worry about that.

我不需要担心我的饮酒量，因为这家公司告诉我我的风险很低。

I don't need to worry about my consumption because this company told me that I'm at low risk.

而你注意到的另一点是，人们在渴望某种刻意无知方面存在个体差异。

And then the other thing you're picking up on is that there are individual differences in desire for kind of deliberate ignorance.

柏林墙倒塌后，有一项出色的研究探讨了人们是否想知道自己斯塔西档案的内容。

So there's a great study after the wall came down in Berlin that was conducted on whether or not people want to know the contents of their Shtazi files.

比如，谁在报告关于他们的事情？

Like, who was reporting on them?

有些人说，我当然想知道。

And some people were like, of course I wanna know.

我当然想知道别人对我说了些什么。

Of course I wanna know who was saying what about me.

但另一些人则说，不，我不想知。

And other people were saying, no, I don't.

刻意的无知。

Deliberate ignorance.

无知是福。

Ignorance is bliss.

我想要的就是刻意的无知。

Deliberate ignorance is what I want.

这就是别人对他们所说的话。

This is what other people were saying about them.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

别看评论。

Don't read the comments.

是的。

Yeah.

刻意的无知。

Deliberate ignorance.

别看评论。

Don't read the comments.

这也是一种刻意的无知。

It's also a form of deliberate ignorance.

这就像播客主持人之间的一场热烈辩论。

This is like an avid debate between podcasters.

你知道，罗根是那种‘别看评论’的代表人物。

You know, Rogan Rogan is mister don't don't read the comments.

莱克斯、弗里德曼，我对这个问题的看法一直在变。

Lex, Friedman, I go back and forth on this.

关于对评论进行评分。

On grading the comments.

我

I

我的意思是，是的。

mean, yeah.

因为它可能很有用。

For it's it can be useful.

所以，所有这些都说明，我认为我们现在正处在一个科学迅速发展的阶段。

So all of that to say, I think we're in a situation which the science is rapidly developing.

目前还远未达到能成为高置信度预测指标的程度。

It's not nearly at a point where it's gonna be a a high confidence predictor.

此外，被告知遗传风险较低也存在风险，因为这可能会成为一种行为许可机制，最终可能被证明是危险的。

There's also risks to being told that you have a low, you know, a low genetic risk because it might act as a permission structure for behavior that might ultimately prove to be risky.

而且，人们的心理是复杂的，并非所有人都将更多信息视为好事。

And also, people's psychologies are complicated, and not everyone responds to more information as a good thing.

并非每个人都想阅读自己DNA的'评论'。

Not everyone wants to read the comments of their DNA.

这不是反驳，但我觉得大多数人，即使不了解基因和遗传性，也明白他们的基因来自父母。

This isn't a pushback, but I feel like most people, even if they don't understand genes and heritability, understand that they got their genes from their parents.

是的。

Yeah.

所以或许可以说，人们已经在这么做了。

So there is an argument to be made perhaps that people are already doing this.

比如那些父亲是酒鬼、祖父也是酒鬼的人

Like someone whose father was an alcoholic, whose grandfather was an alcoholic

是的。

Yes.

可以说，嗯，我得特别小心，因为这在我家族中是遗传的。

Could say, well, yeah, I gotta be really careful because obviously this runs in my family.

对。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

然后有人会说，你妈妈对酒精没什么问题。

And then someone say, well, your mom doesn't have an issue with alcohol.

她喝几杯酒，没什么大不了的。

She could have a couple drinks, no big deal.

所以你是有保护的。

So you're protected.

但我们不知道基因剂量是如何保护我们或让我们更容易受影响的。

And we don't know how gene dosing protects us or makes us vulnerable.

没人知道，但我们都在这么做，

No one knows, but we all do this,

是的，我认为我们确实如此。

Yes, I think we do.

我的意思是，我们会讨论基因和遗传性，但你知道，像优生学和胚胎阶段的基因选择这类话题，如今非常敏感。

I mean, we'll get into discussions about genes and heritability, but you know, like the topic of eugenics and genetic selection even within embryos is super dicey nowadays.

大家都知道，甚至讨论这些都让人害怕，但我一直说，人们确实会挑选精子捐赠者。

Everyone's, know, it's so scary to even have the discussion, but then I've always said, I mean, people do a Pick sperm kind of genetic donors.

他们挑选精子捐赠者，也挑选伴侣。

They pick sperm donors and they pick partners.

是的。

Yes.

通常基于一系列特征的组合，

Oftentimes based on a combination of traits,

这些显然都涉及其中

You which are clearly involved

要知道，所以人们在选择伴侣时，无论如何都在进行基因筛选。

know, so people are doing a genetic selection in partner choice anyway.

所以对我来说，也许只是我作为科学家的想法，我觉得这种讨论没必要这么吓人，但当涉及到像物质使用障碍这类问题时，我的意思是，如果我说错了请纠正，我认为看看你的父母然后说：听着，如果他们中有一个或两个都有酗酒问题，我必须对酒精非常小心，这是有道理的。

And so to me, maybe it's just the scientist in me, the conversation feels unnecessarily scary, but when it comes to things like substance use disorder, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, think it makes sense to look at your parents and say, listen, if one of them has an issue with alcohol or both of them have an issue with alcohol, I have to be very careful with alcohol.

对你的孩子也要这样。

And with your children too.

对吧？

Right?

我认为作为父母，至少作为母亲，我看着我的孩子们，觉得他们的气质并不相同。

I think as parents, at least as a mother, I look at my kids and I think they don't have the same temperament.

他们的个性也不一样。

They don't have the same personality.

我认为吸食大麻的风险对我儿子和女儿来说是不同的。

I think the risks of cannabis use is different for my son and for my daughter.

所以我认为一个敏锐的父母会思考，随着孩子进入青春期，我对他们了解多少？

And so I think an attuned parent is going to be thinking about, what do I know about my kid as they go into adolescence?

这如何影响我帮助塑造他们的环境的方式？

How does that inform how I'm helping shape their environment?

我认为你在这里注意到的是，人们常常把遗传信息当作一种孤立存在的东西，认为这是了解一个人的唯一依据。

I think what you're picking up here is that oftentimes people treat genetic information as if it exists in a vacuum, and it's the only thing we know about a person.

但这显然不是真的。

And that's obviously not true.

我们在家人、潜在伴侣和孩子身上都能观察到各种表型。

There are phenotypes that we see in our family members and our prospective mates and our children.

而且大多数研究似乎也假设，你会将关于孩子或某人的遗传信息直接返还给他们本人。

And most of the research can also act as if you would be returning genetic information about a child or about a person to that person.

并且这是他们唯一知道的信息。

And it's the only thing that they know.

但这并不真实。

And that's not true.

因此，我认为我们现在正处在一个需要更多元科学——即关于科学本身的科学——的阶段，我们需要探索最负责任的方式，让人们以有助于他们做出最佳选择的方式获取自己的遗传信息。

So I think that we really are at a place where we need more meta science, science about the science, and what is the most responsible way to give people access to their genetic information in a way that permits them to make the best choices.

但如果我们继续假装遗传信息存在于某种孤岛中，与人们观察自己和家人时关注的所有其他事物隔绝，那我们就无法做到这一点。

But we're not going be able to do that if we're continuing to pretend that genetic information exists somehow siloed from all the other things that people are paying attention to when they're observing themselves and their family members.

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If you're a regular listener of the Huberman Lab Podcast, you've no doubt heard me talk about the vitamin mineral probiotic drink AG1.

如果你之前还在犹豫，现在正是尝试它的绝佳时机。

And if you've been on the fence about it, now's an awesome time to give it a try.

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For the next few weeks, AG1 is giving away a full supplement package with your first subscription to AG1.

他们正在免费赠送一瓶维生素D3K2、一瓶欧米伽-3鱼油胶囊，以及一份新型睡眠配方AGZ的试用装——顺便说一句，AGZ现在是我唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。

They're giving away a free bottle of vitamin D3K2, a bottle of omega-three fish oil capsules, and a sample pack of the new sleep formula AGZ, which by the way is now the only sleep supplement I take.

它效果非常棒。

It's fantastic.

我服用AGZ后的睡眠质量好到不可思议。

My sleep on AGZ is out of this world good.

AGZ是一种饮品，因此无需服用大量药片。

AGZ is a drink, so it eliminates the need to take a lot of pills.

味道很棒。

It tastes great.

正如我所说，它让我睡得非常好，醒来时比以往任何时候都更精神。

And like I said, it has me sleeping incredibly well, waking up more refreshed than ever.

我非常喜欢它。

I absolutely love it.

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Again, this is a limited time offer, so make sure to go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started today.

我觉得，我们对自己父母、祖父母以及他们的正面特质和所谓的适应不良、破坏性特质了解得越多，我们的选择就会越明智。

I feel like the more information we have about our parents and their parents and their positive traits and their, let's just call them maladaptive, destructive traits to themselves or to others, the more informed our choices can be.

但我理解，这可能会在我们的脑海中建立起一些关于自身能力或无能的限制。

But I do understand that it can start to set up some constraints in our mind of what we are capable of, or not capable of.

是的。

Yeah.

但我同时也觉得，尤其是在美国，有一种观念认为我们可以成为任何想成为的人。

But I also feel like, especially in The United States, there's this notion that we can become anything.

直到我和来自南欧的人交往后，我才意识到，从小到大一直持有的这种想法，在某些人看来是多么荒谬。

It wasn't until I was in a relationship with somebody from Southern Europe that I realized that that notion growing up with that Yeah.

这在世界上许多地方的人看来是相当离谱的。

Is kind of outrageous to some people in the world.

因为世界上许多地区的人，如你所知，很早就被局限在特定的轨道上了。

Because in a lot of areas of the world, as you know, people get siloed really early on.

嗯。

Mhmm.

并不是每个人都从小认为，如果选择那条路，自己能成为出色的运动员。

And they, not everyone grows up thinking that they could be an amazing athlete if they chose that path.

是的。

Yeah.

他们也可能成为亿万富翁，如果选择那条路的话。

They could be a billionaire if they chose that path.

你知道，在美国，我们非常推崇这样一种观念：只要足够努力、相信自己，并与对的人结盟，任何人都能到达任何位置。

You know, they could but in The United States, we love this notion of anyone can get to any position if they just work hard enough and believe in themselves and align with the right people.

所以我认为你大概把它看作是另一个数据来源。

So I think that you think of it probably as, you know, another source of data.

难道更多的数据不是更好吗？

And isn't more data better?

就像，当我们掌握更多变量时，我们的决策能力不是会提高吗？

Like, isn't we improve our decision making when we have more variables at hand?

这是一种非常科学的思考基因信息的方式。

That's a very scientific way to think about genetic information.

然而我认为，对于更广泛的公众中的许多人来说，可能会倾向于将基因视为一种非常特殊的信息。

Whereas I think for many people in the broader public, there can be a temptation to see genes as a very special sort of information.

基因周围有一种神秘感，也许这是我的心率变异性数据所不具备的。

There's a genetic has a myth around it that maybe this is my data on my heart rate variability doesn't have about it.

我认为人们常常会陷入这些非常本质主义的基因叙事中，认为基因在告诉他们关于自己最深层次或最真实自我的信息。

Often I think that people can fall into these really essentialist stories about genetics, that it's telling them something about their, like, their deepest or truest selves.

而正是在这种情况下，传递基因信息时，如果没有纠正他们对基因真正告诉我们什么的认知，就可能开始变得危险。

And that's when the delivery of genetic information, without correcting their perception of what genes are really telling us, can start to be dangerous.

我是说，我想到23andMe，他们多年的标语是‘欢迎了解你自己’。

I mean, I think about 23andMe, their tagline for many years was welcome to you.

往这个管子里吐口唾沫。

Spit in this tube.

欢迎了解你自己。

Welcome to you.

对吧？

Right?

我们并不是要给你提供另一条关于你自己的信息，让你添加到所有可能使用的信息中。

That we are going to give we are not just going to give you another piece of information about yourself to add to all the things that you could be using.

我们将告诉你，你究竟是谁。

We are going to tell you who you really are.

我认为，当基因信息陷入这些更本质主义的叙事时，事情就会变得，用你的话来说，更棘手一些，风险更大一些。

And it's when the genetic information lapses into these more essentialist stories that I think things get to be, in your words, a little bit thornier, a little bit riskier.

我从未做过23andMe的基因检测，虽然他们就在附近，但不知怎么的，一直没做。

I never did 23andMe, but they were just right up the road, but somehow never did it.

但我确实听说过，23andMe及其类似公司带来的一个令人惊讶的结果是，相当一部分人发现自己有以前不知道的亲戚。

But I did hear that one of the surprising results of 23andMe and companies like it was that a not insignificant number of people discovered they have relatives that they didn't know they had.

是的，或者发现自己的父亲并非自己以为的那位。

Yes, or that their father isn't the father that they thought they had.

这真是一个相当重大的心理认知转变。

Which is a pretty major psychological frame shift.

确实如此。

Yeah.

我在一所大学——一所小型学院——做了一次演讲，那是一个写作课。

I gave a talk at a college, a small college, and it was a writing class.

他们必须写一篇关于一本书的文章，而他们选择了我的书来写，这很棒。

And they had to write about a book, and they chose my book to write about, which is great.

就像，你知道的，大一新生，他们都需要真正写点东西。

It's like, you know, freshmen, and they all have to actually write something.

他们选择了一本故意带点争议性的书，好让他们有东西可以发挥。

And they chose a book that was deliberately, you know, a little bit controversial to give them something to push off on.

我问他，我说，为什么？

And I asked him, I said, why?

你怎么知道的，你是一位写作教授。

How did you know, you're a writing professor.

你是怎么找到我的书的？

How did you find my book?

他说，嗯，我做了23andMe基因检测。

And he said, well, I did 23andMe.

我意识到抚养我长大的男人并不是我的亲生父亲。

And I realized that my the man who raised me is not my biological father.

我的父母并不知道这件事。

My parents didn't know this.

我的亲生父亲是我们的生育医生，而我大概有26个同父异母的兄弟姐妹。

It was our fertility doctor who was my biological father, and I have something like 26 half siblings.

因为这家伙在他的诊所里这么干了好多年。

Cause this guy had been doing it in his practice for years.

他现在这位医生已经去世了。

He's now the doctor is now deceased.

我当时就想，这个故事比我跟这些新生聊的任何事情都要有趣得多。

And I just was like, that's so much more interesting than I'm gonna talk about, like, anything I'm gonna talk about with these freshmen.

这个故事，还有那个，我觉得这说明他对自己的一生和家庭有一整套叙述。

This story and that and I think that speaks to he had a whole narrative about his life and his family.

然后他得到了这份基因信息，这彻底颠覆了他原有的故事，因为遗传谱系对我们自我认同的重要性不容忽视。

And then he got this piece of genetic information, and it blew that story out of the water because there was something about the genetic lineage that is really important to our sense of who we are.

他不得不在这一信息的基础上，重新构建自己的家庭故事和身份认同。

And he really had to reconstruct, you know, his family story and his identity in the light of that information.

这太有意思了，因为我听说过有人得知自己祖父母或父母的一些不幸秘密，而他们之前并不知情。

It's so interesting because I've heard of people learning something unfortunate, bad about their grandparent or parent that they weren't aware of.

然后他们潜意识里觉得，自己也变得糟糕了。

And then internalizing that somehow they are bad.

是的。

Mhmm.

尤其是小孩子，可能会把这种信息内化。

Especially young kids can internalize that message.

是的。

Yeah.

这是给所有可能最终会离婚的人的一个信息。

This is a message to all people who may end up divorced.

不要诋毁另一方父母，因为你本质上是在告诉你的孩子，他们来自不好的地方，他们身上有不好的东西。

Don't bad mouth the other parent because you're essentially telling your kids that they come from bad, there's badness in them.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，我们都认为这关乎人们的行为，我的理解是，我花了一点时间研究这方面的文献，人们如何解读信息，孩子们如何解读信息，他们会想，哦，我来自不好的东西。

You know, and we all think that this is about people's behavior, my understanding of, I spent a little bit of time with this literature, just how people interpret information and how kids interpret information is that they're like, oh, I come from something bad.

实际上，我是说，有很多电影都是关于这个的。

And there's actually, I mean, there's all these movies about this.

《星球大战》和其他电影里都有这样的情节，比如我们的基因起源以及它们在之前几代人中的表现。

Star Wars has this and other movies, like our genetic origins and how those played out in previous generations

是的。

Yeah.

会让人对自己感到恐惧。

Can frighten people about themselves.

对。

Yes.

那么回到你之前的问题，我们该如何结合这些构成我们身份一部分的表型来讨论遗传学呢？

So to go back to your earlier question about how do we talk about genetics in relation to these phenotypes that are really part of our identities?

另外一点是，我认为没有人是彻头彻尾的坏人。

Another thing is that I don't think anyone's bad.

我也不认为有人是十全十美的。

I don't think anyone's all good either.

我认为人类是复杂的，我们的行为也是复杂的，我们任何人都不能被简化为某个行为、某个基因或某个表型特征。

I think that humans are complicated and our behaviors are complicated and none of us can be reduced to one thing we've done or one gene we have or one aspect of our phenotype.

但确实存在一种普遍的看法，认为遗传学揭示了关于我们自身的一些本质性信息，而这些本质性的东西可能最终被证明是不好的。

But that is a really common perception that genetics is telling us something essential about ourselves and that it might turn out that that essential thing is a bad thing.

我在我的新书中写到了一封我收到的来自一名囚犯的信。

I write in my new book about this letter that I got from a man who is in prison.

他从16岁起就被关押，因为他犯下了一桩可怕的罪行。

He's been in prison since he was 16 for a horrific crime that he committed.

那是一起性暴力犯罪，他当时只有15岁。

It's a, you know, sexually violent crime that he committed when he was 15 years old.

所以那时他还是个青少年，大脑仍在发育，尚未成年。

So still an adolescent, still a growing brain, still not an adult.

在德克萨斯州，15岁就可以被当作成人受审，而他自那以后就一直被监禁。

In Texas, you can be tried an adult as 15, and he's been in prison ever since then.

他读到了关于我的实验室——我们德克萨斯大学的行为遗传学实验室——的一篇刊登在《德克萨斯月刊》上的文章，我想监狱里订阅了这份杂志。

And he read about my lab, my you know, our behavior genetics lab at Texas and an issue of Texas Monthly Magazine, which I guess the prison subscribes to.

他给我写了一封信，信寄到了我的大学邮箱里。

And he wrote me a letter, and it showed up in my university mailbox.

他在信里说：‘我做了这件事，让我告诉你关于我自己的事。’

And it was him singing, I've done this thing, like, let me tell you about myself.

我的整个成年生活，甚至在此之前，都是在监狱里度过的。

I've been in prison my whole adult life, even before then.

你认为是什么导致一个孩子变坏，是天性还是后天培养？

What do you think makes a child go bad, nature or nurture?

这个问题一直困扰着我，因为我可以给他一个技术性的答案，比如，我们知道天性很重要，我们知道后天培养很重要，我们知道我们所有的行为都受到天性和后天培养的共同影响。

And that question haunted me because I could give him a technical answer, which I could say, it's, we know that nature matters, we know that nurture matters, we know that all of our behaviors are influenced by both nature and nurture.

但我想，当他写信给我时，他不仅仅是在寻求一堂科学课，对吧？

But I think when he's writing me, he's not just asking for a science lesson, right?

他是一个犯下可怕罪行的人，他在信中说：我觉得自己天生就是个可怕的人，这可能与我的基因有关。

He's someone who's done something horrible, and he's saying, I feel like I'm inherently a horrible person, And that might be because of my genetics.

是基因让我变坏的吗？

Do genetics make me bad?

我认为这是一个关于遗传学的故事，虽然它没有科学依据，但在我们的文化中确实随处可见，这使得讨论变得非常困难，因为你知道，你在这里说这些基因变异在产前发育的这个阶段表达，这会增加你出现这些行为的概率。

And I think that's a story about genetics, which has no scientific basis, but really pops up in a lot of places in our culture, and it makes it very difficult to talk about because, you know, you're here saying, These genetic variants are expressed at this point in prenatal development, and that increases your probability of having these behaviors.

但如果有人将其理解为‘我可能天生就是坏的’或‘我可能天生就有缺陷’，那绝对不是我们所要表达的意思。

But if someone hears that as, I could be born bad or I could be born broken, that's absolutely not what we're saying.

但这种关于基因的故事确实深深融入了我们的文化。

But that story about genetics is really, you know, woven through our culture.

天生的恶种。

The bad seed.

天生的恶种。

The bad seed.

骨子里的坏。

Bad to the bone.

天生的杀手。

Natural born killer.

我们能如此轻松地创造出描述这种现象的英语习语和短语，这告诉我们一些关于我们如何看待行为、道德、自我与生物学的信息。

We have I think the fact that we can come up with English idioms and phrases for this so easily tells us something about the way that we think about behavior, morality, the self, and biology.

我有太多问题了，但我想第一个想问的是一个发展方面的问题。

I have so many questions, but I think the first one I want to ask is a developmental one.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，我们大多数人可能都抱有这样的观念：正是在青春期，尤其是睾酮激素的激活，让一个乖孩子变成了坏孩子。

I think most of us, presumably, carry this idea that it's during puberty and the activation of hormones, in particular testosterone, that takes a sweet kid and makes them a bad kid.

我认为这并不正确。

I think that's not true.

我不相信这是真的。

I don't believe that's true.

但在文献中，有没有关于儿童在青春期前以反社会方式具有破坏性的例子？

But are there examples of, in the literature, of kids prior to puberty being destructive in sociopathic way?

有。

Yes.

这是被称为‘终身持续型反社会行为’的最重要预测因素之一，其特征是10岁之前就开始出现。

And that's one of the biggest predictors of what people have called a life course persistent pattern of antisocial offending, which is onset before the age of 10.

这种反社会行为不仅包括破坏财产，还包括对其他儿童的攻击。

Antisocial behavior that's not just destruction of property, but also aggression against other children.

当我们思考攻击行为时，通常会区分受挑衅引发的攻击和主动的、冷酷的攻击。

And when we're thinking about aggression, oftentimes we discriminate between aggression when provoked versus proactive, kind of cold aggression.

因此，最糟糕的预后预期会是一个在10岁前就开始对其他孩子或动物表现出攻击行为，且对此毫无愧疚或悔意、带有某种冷酷无情的特质的男童，这预示着他们成年后行为调节能力较差。

So the worst prognosis anticipate would be a male child who begins to aggress against other children or against animals before the age of 10 and doesn't feel guilt or remorse around that, that has kind of this cold callousness about it, that's a poor prognosticator of having well regulated behavior into adulthood.

所以，在那些患有品行障碍的孩子中，尤其是在10岁前就表现出这些冷酷情感特征的，我们预计其中50%到75%的人在成年后会患上物质使用障碍。

So of those kids who have conduct disorder, especially before the age of 10 with these callous emotional features, we would expect that fifty to seventy five percent of them will have a substance use disorder in adulthood.

有相当一部分人会在成年后符合反社会人格或其他人格障碍的标准。

A non trivial percentage will meet criteria for antisocial personality or another personality disorder in adulthood.

所以我认为，我们看到的是一部分明显具有强烈遗传因素的儿童。

And so again, I think we're looking at a subset of children where there's clearly a heavy genetic component.

这显然有很强的后天养育因素。

There's clearly a heavy nurture component.

就其起源和早期大脑发育而言，这很大程度上是神经发育问题。

It's very neurodevelopmental in terms of its origins and early brain development.

而目前，我们几乎没有有效的治疗方法。

And currently we have vanishingly few effective treatments.

再者，我认为这是因为人们可能隐含地或无意识地将基因研究或生物学研究解读为这些孩子天生就是坏的，而不是这些孩子天生就带有一系列神经发育上的缺陷，我们真的需要想办法帮助他们。

And again, I think that's because people have maybe implicitly or unconsciously interpreted the genetic research or the biological research as these kids were born bad, not these kids were born with a set of neurodevelopmental liabilities, and we really need to figure out how to help them.

你知道，我们能为他们提供哪些治疗方式呢？

You know, what are the treatments we can offer them?

当人们把这种行为视为道德缺陷时，就不太可能把它看作是可以通过科学力量来解决的生物医学问题。

And when people see something as a moral failing, they're less likely to see it as a biomedical problem that we can, you know, throw the weight of science behind.

在10岁以下表现出这种反社会行为的孩子中，男性和女性的比例分别是多少？

What percentage of these kids younger than 10 that show this antisocial behavior are male versus female?

性别比例有所不同，有时是二比一，有时甚至高达四比一。

The sex ratio varies, but sometimes it's two to one, sometimes it's as high as four to one.

这不能用出生后的睾酮水平来解释，因为他们还没到青春期。

And that can't be explained by post utero testosterone because they haven't hit puberty yet.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这要么是胎儿期早期的组织性影响，要么是Y染色体上存在某种易感因素。

So it either is an early organizing effect in utero, or there's something on the Y chromosome that creates a susceptibility.

我们真的还不清楚。

And we really don't know.

实际上，我的一位前博士后现在正在研究这个，分析X染色体，因为大多数遗传研究只关注常染色体。

Actually, one of my former postdocs is working on this now, the analysis of the X chromosome, because most genetic studies just focus on the autosome.

所以只关注非性染色体。

So just focus on the non sex chromosomes.

另外，我们在动物中也观察到这一点，雄性豚鼠比雌性豚鼠更容易受到早产的影响。

The other thing is we also see this in animals, that male guinea pigs are much more vulnerable to the effects of preterm birth than female guinea pigs.

同样，早产会破坏那种GABA、谷氨酸、兴奋性、抑制性的平衡，我们在遗传研究中也看到这种平衡出现问题。

Again, preterm birth disrupts that same kind of GABA, glutamate, excitatory, inhibitory balance that we're also seeing popping up in the genetic research.

另外，我正好有三个孩子。

Also, I've just I have two three kids.

我有两个女儿和一个儿子。

I have two girls and one boy.

即使是人类，产房护士也会说，好吧，得让他多待一会儿。

And even with humans, the labor and delivery nurse will be like, Okay, well, got to keep him in longer.

因为那些早产的男孩，他们很吃力。

Cause those early early boys, they struggle.

他们知道，男性胎儿似乎比女性胎儿更容易受到这些伤害的影响。

They know that the male fetus seems to be more vulnerable to these insults than the than the female fetus.

那些豚鼠有反社会倾向吗？

Are the guinea pigs sociopathic?

豚鼠嘛，我是说，所有这些你都可以用来研究非人类动物模型。

Guinea pigs, I mean, all of these things you can you've used to work with nonhuman animal models.

无论好坏，我研究过很多不同的物种。

I for better or worse, I've worked with so many different species.

我得说，出于各种原因，我一点也不怀念和动物打交道的工作。

I have to say I do not miss working with animals for a variety

最终进入了临床心理学项目。

of reasons.

是的。

Ended up in a clinical psych program.

明白。

Yeah.

工作过。

Worked.

人类可以同意参与实验。

Humans can consent to be in an experiment.

作为一个动物爱好者，这最终对我的心灵造成了太大的负担。

As an animal lover, it eventually wore on my soul too much.

我理解在哪些情况下这是必要的。

And I understand where it's necessary.

我也认为存在过度的情况，特别是——这么说可能会让我失去一些朋友——但在一些大型灵长类动物研究方面尤其如此，人们确实需要给出正当理由，虽然有些情况下理由充分，但确实，我研究过很多不同的动物，不过我正想说，我知道我们都爱狗，有句俗话说，没有坏狗狗，只有坏主人。

I also think there's an excess in particular, and I'll lose some friends with this, but in particular, with some of the larger primate work, one really needs to justify, and there are instances where there's good justification, but yeah, I've worked at a lot of different animals, but I was about to say, I know we both dog lovers, there's this saying, there are no bad dogs, just bad owners.

但我们不会这样评价人类。

But we don't say that about humans.

我们不会说，哦，你知道的，他们不是坏人。

We don't say, oh, you know, they're no bad people.

每个人都是好人。

Everyone is a good person.

他们只是糟糕的父母。

They're just bad parents.

在某个时候，通常是18岁，我们会说你对自己的行为负责，无论你经历过什么，无论你带着怎样的基因来到这个世界。

At some point, usually 18, we say you're responsible for your actions, regardless of what happened to you, regardless of the genes you came into this world with.

当人们以不同方式对自己的行为负责时，情况就会发生变化，这很容易理解。

And things shift where people understandably are responsible for their behavior in a different way.

听起来在德克萨斯州，根据罪行的不同，责任年龄可能会更早确定。

Sounds like in Texas, can come in earlier depending on the crime.

但我假设所有的狗都是好狗，它们值得信赖，永远不会伤害你或其他狗，也许会伤害其他动物，因为我见过某些狗遇到特定动物时会发生什么。

But I assume all dogs are good dogs, that they're trustworthy, that they would never harm you or another dog, maybe an animal because I've seen what happens when certain dogs get ahold of certain animals.

但我不认为我们对人也做同样的假设。

But I don't think we make the same assumption about people.

我觉得我们也不会。

I don't think we do either.

我给我的新书命名为《原罪》，就是为了突出这一点。

I titled my new book Original Sin to really spotlight this exact thing.

你知道吗，在我成为科学家之前，前二十年我是一名福音派基督徒。

You know, before I was a scientist, the first twenty years of my life, I was an evangelical Christian.

所以我是在一个非常基要主义的家庭中长大的，南方的，到处赞美上帝、传递武器，方方面面都是如此。

So I was raised in a very fundamentalist household, Southern, praised God and passed the ammunition in lots of ways.

在我所成长的基督教派别中——新教、改革宗、加尔文主义——我从小就被灌输原罪的概念，即人类生来就是邪恶的，生来就是堕落的，生来就是破碎的。

And in my in my brand of Christianity that I was raised in, which was Protestant, Reformed, Calvinist, I really was raised with this idea of original sin, which is that humans are born bad, that they're born depraved, that they're born broken.

我不认为这是真的，但这是某些宗教传统明确教导的内容。

And I don't believe that's true, but that's the explicit teaching of some religious traditions.

而这种宗教传统正是我们文化和制度的基石。

And that's a religious tradition that was really foundational to our culture and our institutions.

所以我认为，我们说‘没有坏狗’，却默认人可能天生邪恶，这绝非偶然。

So I don't think it's a coincidence that we talk about how there's no bad dogs, but we assume people can be inherently bad.

因为我认为，我们很多人从小就被教导：我们所有人，或者某些人——如果你考虑加尔文主义神学，有些人是蒙拣选的，有些人则不是——有些人天生就是邪恶的。

Because I think many of us were taught that, you know, from a young age, that all of us, or some of us, you know, if you're thinking about Calvinist theology of some people are the elect and some people are that, that some of us are inherently bad.

所以你可能从小就被灌输一种宗教传统，它真正谈论的是与生俱来的堕落。

So you can be raised with a religious tradition that really is talking about inherent depravity.

然后你还有科学传统，研究基因如何影响人们所做的坏事？

And then you have a scientific tradition that's studying, well, how does genes how do genes affect bad things that people do?

然后我们就开始讨论科学应该如何被使用。

And then we have debates about how science should be used.

而我认为，这里的问题变得非常棘手和复杂：我们如何应用科学，又不至于陷入这种非常古老的思维方式——即把科学当作我们生来就有缺陷的证据。

And that's where I think things get really thorny and really tricky, which is how do we apply the science without lapsing into this really ancient way of thinking, which is interpreting the science as proof that we're broken.

人们是有缺陷的。

That people are broken.

与此同时，我想起我收到的那封信，人们确实会做出可怕的事情。

At the same time, I mean, going back to this letter that I received, people do horrible shit.

人们会彼此做出可怕的事情。

Like, people do horrible things to each other.

我想起写信给我的那个人，我认为他做了一件可怕的事。

And I think about that man who wrote me a letter and I can say, I think he did a horrible thing.

根据我所了解的所有科学知识，我认为他很可能在父母、基因、出生经历和童年经历方面遭遇了极大的不幸。

And I think he probably, everything I know scientifically, I think he probably had horrible luck in terms of his parents and his genes and his birth experiences and his child experiences.

那么，我们该如何将这些结合起来呢？

And so how do we put those together?

对一个人的行为负责意味着什么？

What does it mean to hold someone responsible for how they behave?

我确实认为，我们对自己和彼此都有责任，同时也要牢记，没有人是从零开始创造自己的。

I do think that we are responsible for ourselves and responsible to each other, while also keeping in mind the fact that no one created themselves from scratch.

当他成年时，他已经因为童年时期所经历的事情而入狱了。

By the time he was an adult, he was already in prison for the things that had happened to him while he was still technically a child.

我写这本书——我的新书——是因为我一直在努力思考这个问题。

I wrote this book, my new book, because I was really attempting to to wrestle through that question.

我想我理解这个故事的要点了。

I think I'm getting this story right.

这是一个真实的故事，由斯坦福大学前神经科学主任比尔·纽斯姆讲述，关于那个爬上德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校塔楼并射杀多人的人——塔楼枪手。

It's a true story that was told by our former director of neurosciences at Stanford, Bill Newsome, about the guy who went up in the tower at UUT Austin and shot a bunch of people The tower shooter.

我想他最终被一名保安击毙了。

I think he was eventually taken out by a security guard.

这个故事最引人注目的是，至少按我的记忆，这个人知道自己有问题，认为问题出在大脑里，一直在请人检查他的大脑并帮助他。

The remarkable thing about the story is, at least the way I remember it, is that this guy knew something was wrong with him, thought that the site of the problem was in his brain, was asking people to look at his brain and help him.

我觉得我讲得没错。

I think I'm getting this right.

是的。

Yes.

我们再核对一下。

We'll double check.

然后他说，在意识到自己即将实施这一行为时，他希望他们检查他的大脑。

And then said, at the point where he realized he was gonna go through with this thing, with this act, that he wanted them to look at his brain.

结果发现他大脑的某个颞叶区域长了一个肿瘤——

And it turned out he had a tumor in a, I think it was some temporal lobe region that-

是杏仁核。

It was amygdala.

实际上是在杏仁核。

Was actually in the amygdala.

所以你很清楚这个故事。

So you know the story clearly.

是的。

Yeah.

这是你工作的地方。

It's where you work.

对。

Yes.

幸运的是，这件事发生在你工作之前很久。

Fortunately occurred long before you work.

真糟糕，居然发生了这样的事。

Mean, terrible that it happened at all.

但在当今校园枪手和公共屠杀频发的时代，对吧？

But in this age of school shooters and public massacres, right?

人们就是会，你知道的，跑到拉斯维加斯酒店的窗户边，朝人群扫射。

People just, you know, going up into Vegas hotel window and hosing people with bullets.

这个案例很特殊，因为这个人知道他自己有问题，某种程度上也想要帮助，但你可以想象在他的脑海中，有天使与魔鬼的对话，一边是神经回路在说：别这么做，别这么做，去求助；另一边却在说：就这么做，就这么做。

This case is a unique one because the guy knew there was something wrong with him, in some sense wanted help, but you can kind of create this picture of angel devil conversations in his head between neural circuitry that's saying, don't do this, don't do this, ask for help and do this, do this.

我的意思是，这就像是卡通或电影里，天使和魔鬼分别坐在肩膀上，或在每只耳朵里争吵的场景。

And I mean, it's like the cartoon or movie with the angel and the devil on the shoulder or in each ear.

我们该如何理解这种情况呢？

What are we to make of that?

是的。

Yeah.

天哪。

Gosh.

惠特曼这个案例非常有趣，因为他确实说过，他知道自己有问题。

The Whitman case is so it's so interesting because he did say that he there was something wrong with him.

他确实寻求过帮助。

He did ask for help.

他死后，德克萨斯州下令进行尸检，结果发现他脑内有一个肿瘤。

After he died, the state of Texas ordered an autopsy, and they found that they had this tumor.

整件事基本上被定性为，几乎就像一场自然灾害发生了伤害。

And the whole thing was basically labeled, like, almost like a natural disaster had hurt had occurred.

所以报告里谈论的是，比如这场灾难，或者你知道的，这起事件。

So the the report talks about, like, the catastrophe or the, you know, this incident that happened.

因此，他们最终为了理解惠特曼在德州塔楼枪击人群的行为，采取了一些哲学家所称的客观视角。

So they ultimately, trying to make sense of Whitman's shooting people from the tower at Texas, took what some philosophers have called this objective view.

所以基本上，他们并没有将他视为一个在善恶、道德过失领域做出选择的行动者。

So basically, like, he they weren't viewing him as an agent who's choosing, who's doing something in the realm of good or bad, a moral failing.

他们把他看作一台失控的机器。

They're viewing him as kind of a machine that's gone haywire.

对吧？

Right?

他的杏仁核长了肿瘤，如果没有这个肿瘤，他就不会这么做。

He got a tumor in his anygdala, and he wouldn't have done it if he hadn't had this tumor.

如果他没要求做脑部尸检，他们该如何解释他的行为呢？

How would they have made sense of his behavior if he hadn't asked for a brain autopsy?

如果他们不知道这个肿瘤的存在呢？

If they didn't know about this tumor?

还有多少其他人身上也存在某种特定部位的问题，如果我们了解这些，或许就能理解他们的行为是如何形成的。

How many other people have something going on with them in a specific location that, if we knew about it, might help us understand how this behavior came across.

我在书中写过一个荷兰家庭的故事，这个家庭中的所有女性都正常生活，但一半的男性却都犯下重罪：一个强奸了妹妹。

I write in my book this story of this Dutch family where basically all the women in the family were functioning Okay, But half the men in the family were one, raped his sister.

一个用干草叉刺伤了老板。

One, stabbed his boss with a pitchfork.

还有一个多次纵火。

One multiple one committed arson.

多名男性曾入狱服刑。

Multiple of the men were in prison.

后来，据我猜测，其中一位女性说：‘你们得弄清楚，我们家的男性到底出了什么问题。’

And at some point, I guess one of the women was like, Y'all, you have to figure out what's going on with the men in our family.

这种情况不可能只是巧合。

Like, this is too much to be a coincidence.

他们发现，在X染色体上，他们遗传了一种MAOA基因的罕见突变。

And what they found is that on the X chromosome, they had inherited a rare mutation in the MAOA gene.

MAOA是一种降解单胺的酶，你知道，单胺调节着神经元之间的交流。

So MAOA is an enzyme that degrades monoamines that, you know, regulate how your neurons are talking to one another.

女性有两条X染色体。

And women have two X chromosomes.

所以，即使她们遗传了一个有缺陷的版本，还有另一个版本可以起作用。

So if they inherit a bad version, there's still the other version.

而男性只有一个X染色体。

Whereas men only have one X.

所以从母亲那里，他们有50%的几率。

And so from their mom, they got a fiftyfifty shot.

我会得到突变版本还是非突变版本呢？

Am I going to get the the mutated version or the non mutated version?

我觉得这项研究在很多层面上都令人着迷。

I mean, I find this study fascinating on so many levels.

对吧？

Right?

DNA中单个字母的改变竟然能对你的行为产生如此巨大的影响。

That the single letter change in your DNA could have this massive effect on your behavior.

但同样值得注意的是，所有这些男性都身处刑事司法系统中，却未被明确标记为存在器质性、生物学或精神疾病方面的问题。

But also that all of these men were in the criminal justice system and had not been obviously flagged as something organic or biological or mental illness going on with them.

后来，另一个研究小组在几家医院转诊的几名冲动攻击性男孩中也发现了这种表面上罕见的突变。

And later, there was another group that found this, you know, ostensibly rare mutation in several other impulsively aggressive boys that had been referred to their hospital.

他们在科学论文的结尾提出了一个我认为是科学文献中最令人难忘的观点之一，那就是：这种情况真的罕见吗？

And they they ended their scientific paper on what I find one of the most haunting notes in the scientific literature, which is, is this actually rare?

还是说，当我们面对人们做出可怕行为时，我们甚至从未停下来从遗传或神经生物学、从器质性的角度去寻找可能的原因？

Or is it that when we're faced with people doing horrible things, we never even stop to look for what might be causing it from a genetic or neurobiological, from organic way?

我认为这是一个非常、非常令人不寒而栗的想法。

Which I think that's a really, really chilling thought.

那么，在缺乏确凿证据的情况下——我想你提出的问题很重要——也就是在没有确凿证据（比如突变基因、杏仁核肿瘤）的情况下，我们如何整合我们作为科学家、作为阅读科学的人所掌握的知识，即：是的，是基因；是的，是环境；是的，这最终导致了行为。

So how do we, you know, in the absence, I think the question that you're asking is an important one, which is in the absence of some smoking gun, you know, the mutated gene, the amygdala tumor, how do we put together our knowledge as scientists, as people who read the science, that, yes, it's genes, yes, it's environment, yes, it goes into the behavior.

而且，我们是人类。

And also, we're humans.

我们对伤害他人的人自然会产生愤怒和责备。

We have this outrage and this, naturally, this blame towards people that harm each other.

作为人类，我们如何同时接受这两种真相？

How do we, as humans, hold both of those truths at the same time?

我认为这才是真正的挑战。

I think that's the real challenge.

我认为一旦有人受到伤害，我们的同情心就会转向受害者。

I think once somebody is harmed, our empathy shifts to the victim.

是的。

Yes.

或者说是受害者们。

Or victims.

对。

Yes.

某种程度上，这会遮蔽我们的认知——尤其当我们与受害者关系密切，或与他们有强烈认同感时，甚至会让我们忽视了这样一个事实：这位仁慈的关心者——我这是从历史角度描述——他登上塔楼，杀害了那些人，最终安保人员制服了他，但那个只是去上课的孩子的父母，或者那位刚上大一、如今已离世的年轻女性，她们的生命已经终结。

In a way that occludes our, maybe even at times, depending how close we are to the victims, or how much we identify with it, occludes our, even care that like, okay, this Our benevolent concern- I'm describing it historically, this guy went up on this tower, killed his people, that security guard eventually got him, but the parent of that kid that was just walking to class, or, you know, the young woman who was, you know, freshman year or whatever, you know, she's dead now.

是的。

Yeah.

她已经不在了。

She's gone.

对。

Yes.

因此，我认为，以一种健康的方式——不是‘某种’健康，而是真正健康的方式——我们会觉得那个家伙活该。

And so I think that in a kind of healthy way, not kind of, in a healthy way, we think the hell with that guy.

少了一个，真高兴他死了。

One less, glad they killed him.

人们会这么说，对吧？

People will say that, right?

人们确实会这么说。

People will say that.

我并不一定这么认为，但某种程度上，如果我退后一步，我的本能反应是：这家伙杀了很多人。

I'm not necessarily, yeah, guess in some sense, if I just stand back and my reflexive response, it's like, this guy killed a lot of people.

我理解他是被逼到这个地步的，他遭受了某种疾病。

I understand he was driven to it, he was stricken with something.

但我很难接受这样的说法：好吧，他天生就有基因缺陷，偏偏在杏仁核里长了胶质瘤，真是倒霉透了。

And I, but it's hard for me to get to, okay, well, there's a genetic thing that set him up from a glioma in the amygdala of all places, like he bad luck.

但因为我们普遍认为人能够干预自己的行为，这就牵扯到自由意志这类问题了。我的同事罗伯特·萨波尔斯基会坚持认为根本不存在自由意志，这让我们很多人很头疼，但他确实是个极其聪明的人。

But because we assume that people can intervene in their own behavior, this gets down to kind of free will type stuff that my colleague, Robert Sapolsky, he'll argue to the end of time that there's no free will, which is a frustrating one for many of us, but he's a hell of a smart guy.

我认为对很多人来说，问题在于基因离行为实在太远了。

I think that the issue for many people is that genes are fairly far upstream from behavior.

是的。

Yes.

比如说，假如我说，有个家伙住在洛杉矶，他为了救一只掉进洛杉矶河里的狗，结果被狗传染了狂犬病。

You know, if I said, okay, there's this guy down in Los Angeles, and you know, he, got rabies from a dog he was trying to save from the LA River.

三天后，他突然随机犯下罪行，杀了一个人。

And then three days later, he randomly committed this crime, he killed somebody.

他会说，嗯，他得了狂犬病，他当时是狂犬病发作。

He'd say, well, he had rabies, he was rabid.

就像我们可以很容易地建立联系，但你知道，那是一种神经病毒，会攻击杏仁核等部位，导致人们变得非常有攻击性。

Like we can make the connection very easily, but that's you know, a neural virus that hits the amygdala, among other things, and causes people to get very aggressive.

我们会说，好吧。

We'd go, okay.

你明白吗？

You know?

嗯，你可以想象他没有得狂犬病的样子。

Well, you can imagine him without the rabies.

所以，这里存在一个距离，即在道德评判的对象自我与你所定位的导致此行为的关键原因之间。

So there's there's you're you can you there's some distance between the self that is the object of moral judgment and the cause that you're locating as the salient cause for this behavior.

如果这两者之间存在间隙，那么你就可以说，好吧。

And if there's daylight between those, then you can say, okay.

我可以想象他在得狂犬病之前是什么样子。

Well, I can imagine what he was like before the rabies.

是的

Mhmm.

基因使这变得更加困难。

Genes make it harder to do that.

是的

Mhmm.

因为当我们认为基因对于构成道德判断对象的自我是如此根本时。

Because when we think of them as so essential to the making of the self that is the object of moral judgment.

那个拥有不同基因的人是谁？

Who is the person that has different genetics?

对吧？

Right?

我们可以想象，如果惠特曼没有那个肿瘤，他会是什么样子。

We can imagine what Whitman would have been like if he didn't have the tumor.

我们可以想象，如果那个人没有感染狂犬病，他会是什么样子。

We could imagine what the guy would be like if he didn't get with rabies.

但是，拥有不同基因型的人又是谁呢？

But who is the person who has a different genotype?

很难构想出一个不同的自我。

It's very difficult to cast a different self.

因此，我们很难将那个自我从我们的谴责中解救出来。

And so it's very difficult to rescue that self from our condemnation.

在你刚才所说的基础上，我要说一些可能有争议的话，我在这里只是推测，甚至可能……

I'll say some something controversial on the on the back of what you just said, which is there may even be I'm speculating here.

你是遗传学家。

You're the geneticist.

我甚至可能有一些根深蒂固的无意识观念，围绕基因，我们知道基因是可以遗传的。

I'm there may even be some deeply hardwired unconscious notion around genes that we know that genes can be inherited.

如果某人有一个基因，这使他们成为坏种，或者使他们容易做出非常恶劣的行为，然后他们真的这么做了。

That if somebody has a gene, which makes them a bad seed or predisposes them to a really bad behavior, and then they engage in it.

然后他们会在监狱里度过余生，或者被保安开枪打死。

And then they're in jail for the rest of their life, or they get shot by the security guard.

我们听到‘再见，活该’这种说法。

We hear the words good riddance.

‘再见，活该’意味着，很好，这些基因现在被终止了。

Good riddance implies, good, those genes were now stopped.

我们并不知道他们在此之前是否繁殖过。

We don't know if they reproduced before that.

所以，你之前提到的那个体外受精医生的例子，显得格外诡异——他 literally 把自己的基因植入这些卵子，而有人却说，我的意思是，这暗示的并不是那个人在自杀，而是那个医生本人。

So there's something, which makes the example you gave before, eerie of the IVF doc that was literally seeding these eggs with his own genes, and then somebody is like, I mean, the implication is not that that person was killing themselves, but whoever that physician was.

我的意思是，这绝不是某个人A的问题，它在每一个层面上都极其不道德。

I mean, not somebody, A, it's terribly unethical at every level.

而且他在不断复制。

And he's replicating.

他在复制自己的不良基因，对吧？

He's replicating his bad genes, right?

而如果一个具有反社会或极具破坏性遗传倾向的人被消除——姑且这么说——或被社会清除，我的意思是，当然，我能理解人们对这个深感痛苦的人所抱有的同情，但我认为，我们可能比自己意识到的更根深蒂固地在思考基因的遗传与延续。

Whereas if somebody who has a genetic predisposition to be sociopathic or really destructive is eliminated, for lack of a better word, or taken out of society, I mean, sure, I you know, orient to the empathy around this person who just feels stricken, but I think we are, I believe we are more hardwired to think about, you know, inheritance and propagation of genes than maybe we are consciously aware of.