激素如何塑造性取向与行为 | 马克·布里德洛夫博士

这项研究真有趣。

Fascinating study.

我被取笑过很多次，但你知道，我觉得特别好玩。

I got made fun of quite a lot, but, you know, I I thought it was a blast.

这些年来，人们问我关于这项研究的一些最离谱的问题——顺便说一句，全都来自男性——比如，如果我切掉我的食指，会不会提高我的睾酮水平？

Mean, some of the more outrageous things that people have asked me about the study over the years were and by the way, they all came from men were if I cut off my index finger, you know, will that raise my testosterone?

真的有人问过这个问题。

Someone actually asked that.

是的。

Yep.

不，这不是反向因果关系。

No, it's not reverse causality.

我会说，那咱们试试看吧。

I would have said, well, let's try it

看看效果。

and see.

再说一遍，我现在意识到，全国各地乃至全世界对此的看法存在差异，但我认为大多数人会说，是的，性取向确实与某种生物变量有关。

Again, now most people I realize there are differences across the country and the world on this stance, but I think most people would say, yeah, like, okay, there's a biological variable associated with sexual orientation.

它与产前睾酮有关，这一点非常有趣。

The fact that it's linked to prenatal testosterone is very interesting.

那么随之而来的问题是，关于同性恋或异性恋男性、同性恋或异性恋女性的行为，是否有什么因素会独立于这一切影响激素水平？

And the question that then comes up is, is there anything about behaviors associated with gay or straight men, gay or straight women that change hormone levels independent of all this?

对吧？

Right?

因为换种说法，多年来，我们一直感兴趣的是，正如你所指出的，同性恋男性的睾酮水平是更高还是更低。

Because put differently, I think for a number of years, were interested in whether or not gay men, as you pointed out, would have higher or lower levels of testosterone.

最初的假设是，由于女性化刻板印象，他们的水平会更低。

Hypothesis was lower based on the effeminate stereotype.

结果却发现，可能恰恰相反。

Turned out probably the opposite outcome.

如果非要说的话，你说得对。

If anything, you're right.

是的

Yeah.

任何在20世纪80年代和90年代去过健身房的人都会意识到，低雄激素的说法是错误的，尽管健身房里类固醇也成了一个问题。

Anyone that went to gyms in the 1980s and '90s would also realize that the low androgen argument was wrong, although steroids become a problem in gyms too.

但你知道，这变得复杂了。

But, you know, they it gets confounded.

但我想我记得，这种效应在青蛙身上也存在，对吗？

But am I correct in remembering that this effect is also present in frogs

还是在小鼠身上？

or mice?

小鼠身上确实存在性别差异。

The sex difference is present in mice.

那是二比四指长比的差异。

That's d two d four ratio difference.

对。

Yes.

我的意思是，我觉得这太惊人了。

I mean I find that amazing.

嗯，我也是这么觉得。

Well, I I did too.

所以，我和温迪·布朗最先做了这个研究。

So so so Wendy Brown and I did that first.

你知道，我一辈子都在研究小鼠和大鼠，但我从来没注意到，它们的第一个指骨最短，第三个指骨最长，有时候第二个指骨比第四个还长——我的意思是，这就像，你知道的，进化是真实存在的，对吧？

And, you know, I'd worked with mice and rats all my life, but, you know, I'd never noticed that that that that there this is their that the first digit is their shortest and that the third digit is the longest and that sometimes the second digit is longer than I mean, I, you know, it's like I mean, it's you know, evolution's real, right?

这是真实发生的。

It happened.

所以，确实存在性别差异。

And so, yeah, there's a sex difference there.

有一组研究人员研究了小鼠，并进行了大量基因操作，结果发现，如果你让雄激素受体失效，这种性别差异就会消失。

And a group looked at mice and did lots of genetic manipulations, and it turns out that if you if you make the androgen receptor dysfunctional, the sex difference goes away.

他们证明了，在小鼠身上，至少第四指的生长骨骼中的雄激素受体比第二指的更多。

And they showed that in mice, at least, there's more androgen receptor in the growing bones of the fourth digit than the second digit.

然后他们证明了，这就是第四指比第二指长得稍长的原因。

And then they showed that that that's why the fourth digit grows a little bit more than the second digit.

太棒了。

Beautiful.

所以，呃，我本该早点说这一点的。

So the and I we I should have said this earlier.

雄激素就是像睾酮、双氢睾酮这样的物质，以及其他一些雄激素。

Androgens are things like testosterone, DHT, other other androgens.

对。

Right.

男性和女性都有雄激素。

Men and women both have them.

其他动物也有。

Other animals have them.

太不可思议了。

Incredible.

所以让我们谈谈睾酮在胎儿期的影响。

So let's talk about effects of testosterone when we're in the womb.

是的。

Yeah.

显然，它对身体结构有组织性影响，也就是这个4D:2D比例。

Obviously, it's having an organizing effect on the body plan, this d four d two ratio.

对。

Right.

那大脑呢？

What about in the brain?

关于异性恋和同性恋男性与女性之间大脑的差异，我们了解多少？

What is known about brain differences between men and women that identify as straight or gay?

在产前阶段，我们还不清楚。

Well, in in terms of prenatally, we don't know.

但西蒙·莱维——一位早已享有盛誉的神经科学家，在视觉系统发育方面发表了大量杰出论文——在我们之前就引起了广泛关注。他研究了下丘脑中的一个特定区域，称为前视区（POA），并比较了同性恋男性与异性恋男性大脑中POA的大小。

But but the very famous study from Simon Levy, who was already a highly respected neuroscientist, lots of wonderful papers in development of the visual system, Simon LeVey got everyone's attention well before we did when he looked at a brain region in the hypothalamus, a specific region called the preoptic area or POA, and he looked there and compared the the size of the POA in the brains of gay men versus straight men.

他当时会研究视前区，是因为大鼠的视前区脑细胞核存在非常显著的性别差异，也就是性别二态性，这个细胞核后来被命名为视前区性双态核，简称SDNPOA。

And he looked in the preoptic area because in rats, there's a very prominent sexual difference or sex dimorphism in a nucleus in in the rat brain in the preoptic area, and the the nucleus got named the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area, the SDNPOA.

西蒙了解大鼠的这个脑区存在巨大的性别差异，于是他研究了同性恋和异性恋男性的大脑，发现了一个核团——它和SDNPOA是否为同一结构尚无定论，但已知男性的这个核团比女性的更大。

And Simon knew there was a huge sex difference there in rats, and so he looked at the brains of gay and straight men and found a nucleus there that may or may not be the same as the SDN POA, but is larger in men than in women.

他的研究结果是：同性恋男性的这个核团比异性恋男性的更小，而且实际上，该核团的大小和女性的相比没有显著差异。

And what he found was that the the nucleus in gay men was smaller than in straight men, and in fact, not significantly different from the size of the nucleus in women.

所以这个核团的特征并不像指长比那样呈现出超雄性的特点？

So it wasn't hyper male like the finger length ratio

是？

was?

不是。

No.

不对。

No.

在他的研究结果里，该区域更小意味着要么接触到的雄激素更少，要么对身体中存在的雄激素反应更弱。

In that case, it indicated less either less androgen exposure or less of a response to the androgen that was there.

西蒙引起的争议比我更大，他的论文发表在《科学》杂志上，许多人持怀疑态度，包括一些神经科学家，但最终另一组研究人员重复了这一结果。

And Simon got even more of an uproar than I did, published his paper in Science, and there were lots of people that were very skeptical, including some neuroscientists, but but eventually another group replicated it.

这正是我想问的，因为我记得这篇论文最主要的两个批评意见之一，在我看来是合理的。

That's what I was gonna ask because I recall that the two major critiques of the paper, one was fair in my opinion.

其中一个批评是，一些死后样本来自死于艾滋病的人。

It was that some of the postmortem samples were from people who had died of AIDS.

而艾滋病有一些已知的神经退行性影响，可能会也可能不会影响这些样本，尽管希望他们已经对此进行了控制。

And so AIDS has some known neurodegenerative effects that may or may not have impacted the samples, although hopefully they control for that.

据我回忆，他还因为公开是同性恋而遭到抵制，有人指责他带有议程导向。

And then as I recall, he also got some pushback because he is openly gay and people accused him of gen agenda ed.

我不是说性别化的。

I didn't say gendered.

我说的是带有议程导向的科学。

I said agenda ed science.

是的。

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

说他是某种同性恋阴谋的一部分，试图强迫美国人认为同性恋者是某种意义上的正常人。

That that that he was part of some conspiracy, a gay agenda to to to force Americans to regard people with same sex orientation as somehow okay.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但一个独立团队对该研究的重复实验，他们显然没有任何偏见的理由。

But a replication of the study from an independent group that presumably has no reason to be biased whatsoever.

他们对此持非常怀疑的态度。

They were very skeptical of it.

那是威廉·普莱尔，后来发生了一些有趣的事情。

So that was William Plyer, who eventually and there's an interesting aspect of it.

他花了很长时间才收集到足够多的样本，因为你知道，西蒙所处的正是艾滋病疫情最严重的时期。

It took him a long time to get a sample big enough because, you know, Simon, it was such a horrible time in AIDS epidemic.

当时有太多年轻男性去世，所以西蒙不难找到足够多的大脑样本进行研究。

There were so many young men dying that Simon had no trouble finding enough brains to do the sample.

然后随着治疗手段的改善，艾滋病的死亡率开始下降。

And and then as treatment got better, the the death rates of HIV started going down.

因此，威廉·拜尔花更长时间才收集到足够的样本，但最终还是没成功。

And so it took longer for William Bayer to gather the samples, but but eventually didn't.

尽管他对这个结果持怀疑态度，但他自己也看到了同样的现象。

And even though he was skeptical of it, he saw it too.

关于艾滋病的问题，西蒙能够加以说明，他还发现了一些患有艾滋病的异性恋男性，他们与其他异性恋男性并没有显著差异。

The the the the question about AIDS, I mean, Simon was able to address that and that he also had some straight men who had AIDS, and and he didn't you know, they didn't they weren't significantly different from other straight men.

但这一发现被广泛解读为证明性取向不是一种选择，而是一种与生俱来的特质。

But but and so it was widely interpreted as proof that sexual orientation is not a choice, that it's something that happens to you.

当然，我不认为性取向是一种选择。

And, of course, I don't think sexual orientation is a choice.

这是事实。

That's true.

但西蒙本人明确表示，他只能研究成年个体的这个核团。

But Simon himself made it clear that he could only look at this nucleus in adults.

对吧？

Right?

你只能观察，它太小了。

You can only look it's so tiny.

性二态核，也就是人类的视前区，大约有一粒沙子那么大。

The sexually dimorphic nucleus, the preoptic area in humans, it's about the size of a grain of sand.

对吧？

Right?

所以你必须使用显微镜，而且目前没有无创的方法来观察它。

So you gotta have a microscope, and you can only there there are no noninvasive way to look at it.

他指出，他并不清楚因果关系的顺序。

And he pointed out that he didn't know if what what the order of causation was.

他不知道这些男性是否天生就具有较小的SDN-POA，因此才成为同性恋。

He didn't know if those men had been born with a smaller SDN POA, and that's why they became gay.

还是其他因素导致他们成为同性恋，同时也使SDN-POA变小？

Or did something else cause them to become gay and also cause the SDN POA to get smaller?

而对于公众来说，认为一个核团在成年后可能会改变大小，这听起来似乎有点不太可能。

And and for for the public, the idea that a nucleus might change its size in adulthood, maybe that seems kind of, like, you know, unlikely.

但作为神经科学家，我们知道，成年大脑其实一直在变化。

But as neuroscientists, we know, you know, that adult brains are changing all the time.

事实上，甚至在动物身上，布拉德·库克就发现，位于内侧杏仁核的一个核团。

In fact, eve even in animals, Brad Cook showed that, you know, there's a nuclear the medial amygdala.

那里存在性别差异，但如果你剥夺雄性体内的睾酮，这种性别差异在几周内就会消失。

There's sex difference there, but if you take away the testosterone in males, sex difference goes away in just a matter of a few weeks.

所以西蒙对SDN-POA的研究，也就是INA三区。

So Simon's work on the SDN POA, also known as INA three.

就不多解释为什么了，不幸的是，

Won't bother with why Unfortunately,

我记得全名。

I remember the full name.

因为我的大脑里记的是前下丘脑间质核，我这么说可不是为了炫耀。

Because my brain it's the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus I'm subregion not saying that to impress anyone.

当你到了五十岁，我现在可以说了，你会疑惑为什么你的海马体还记得那些根本毫无用处的事情。

When you get to be 50, which I can now say that, you wonder why your hippocampus remembers certain things that are like basically totally useless to remember.

我浪费了太多突触在这些完全没用的垃圾上。

I waste so many synapses on totally useless crap.

但那些东西其实不值得记住。

But that's not that's worth holding on to.

你做得很好。

You did well.

所以我们并不知道。

So so we don't know.

这是一个鸡生蛋还是蛋生鸡的问题。

It's a chicken and egg problem.

我们不知道他们是因拥有较小的第三间核而成为同性恋，还是因为他们是同性恋才拥有较小的第三间核。

We don't know if if that happened if if they were gay because they had a small line of three, or do they have a small line of three because they're gay.

所以我喜欢丹尼斯的耳声发射研究，因为它提供了相当有力的证据，表明这种现象发生在他们形成性取向之前。

So what what I liked about Dennis' otoacoustic emissions and is pretty good evidence that that happened well before they they had a sexual orientation.

而且我一向喜欢这一点的是，你根本无法想象，这种现象会受到社会影响，而当时根本没人知道这件事。

And and the other thing I always liked about it is that what well, I mean, you can't imagine there's a social influence on on digital and and be and nobody nobody knew about this.

所以我不担心会有一些小女孩看着自己的手，心想：哎呀，这看起来有点男性化。

So I wasn't worried that there were some little girls out there that looked at their hand and say, gee, that looks kinda masculine.

我是不是该成为女同性恋？

Maybe I should be a lesbian.

对吧？

Right?

因为当时根本没人知道这件事。

Because nobody knew this.

直到你的论文

Until your paper

发表之后。

was published.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，据我回忆，当时在学校里，孩子们会互相看手，试图判断谁是同性恋、谁是异性恋。

I mean, as I recall, there there was some, like, schoolyard stuff of kids looking at each other's hands and trying to decide who was gay and who was straight.

你知道吗？

And you know what?

直到今天，我偶尔在互联网上还会看到一些小广告，声称能根据我的指长比告诉我一些关于我性格的信息。

Every once in a while, to this day on on the Internet, I'll look at it and there'll be a little ad over there claiming to to tell me something about my personality based on the on on on digit ratio length.

这简直让人无语。

And it's just like, you know, please.

对。

Yeah.

这根本毫无根据。

There's nothing to it.

别浪费钱了，朋友们。

Don't waste your money, gang.

这个事实有一个方面，那就是群体之间确实存在差异，但你无法通过这些差异来判断个体之间的不同，我认为这是科学家最难向公众传达的一点

And there's an aspect of this this this fact that that the group differences were there, but you can't tell about differences between individuals That that I think is the hardest thing for scientists to communicate to the public at

很大。

large.

你解释这一点的方式非常好，这在阅读统计数字和理解数据方面是一个重要的教训，我很希望你能举一个例子来说明这一点，或许用另一个例子。

You you have a really good way of explaining this to people because and it's an important lesson just in reading statistics and and making sense of data that I'd love for you to give an example how this plays out perhaps in a separate example.

心理学家喜欢用一种方法来衡量两个群体之间的差异有多大。

Psychologists, they like to talk about a way of measuring how big a difference is between two groups.

所以男性和女性在指长比上的这种差异，是一个相对较小的差异。

So this difference in digit ratios between men and women, it's it's a relatively small difference.

我们通常用两个群体平均值之间相隔多少个标准差来衡量。

It's like well, we measure it in terms of how many standard deviations apart are the two means of the populations.

两个平均值。

The two averages.

两个平均值。

The two averages.

举个例子，大家都知道成年人中性别在身高上的差异，对吧？

And to give an example of that, everyone knows about the sex difference in human height, right, among adults.

这是一个非常显著的性别差异。

So that's a huge sex difference.

这种差异是我们所有人都能察觉到的。

It's one where we're all aware of it.

即使没人告诉我们这是个现象，过一段时间我们自己也会注意到，对吧？

And if nobody told us it was such a thing, we'd notice it after a while, right?

这是因为这两个平均值所在的群体之间大约相差两个标准差，而标准差是用来衡量某种特征变异程度的指标。

And that's because those two averages and those two populations are about two standard deviations apart, the standard deviation being a measure of how much variability there is in something.

这是一个非常显著的性别差异。

So that's a huge sex difference.

为了让你理解这代表什么，假如我让你随机抽取一千个人，我只告诉你关于他们每个人的一件事，那就是他们的身高。

And to give you an idea of what that means, if I had you grab a a a sample of a thousand people, and I'm gonna tell you one thing about each one of them, and that's their height.

就这些。

That's all.

现在我来布置任务。

And now I give you the job.

你得猜出他们的性别，我可以告诉你如何最大化你的正确率。

You've gotta guess what sex they are, and I can tell you what you wanna do to to maximize your hit rate.

所有身高五英尺五英寸半的人，你都说是男性。

Everyone who is five feet, five and a half, you're gonna say those are men.

如果低于这个身高，你就说他们是女性。

And if they're less than that, you're gonna say they're women.

你的正确率大约是80%，也就是说你差不多有20%的时间会出错。

And you'll be right about 80% of the time, which means you'll be wrong almost 20% of the time.

对吧？

Right?

所以你可以看到，这里确实有一些预测能力，但远非完美。

And so everyone you can see that there's some predictive power there, but not it's far from perfect.

而这种指长比的性别差异是半标准差，也就是身高的四分之一。

Well, this sex difference in digit ratios is half a standard deviation, so a quarter of that.

这意味着两者之间的重叠要大得多。

And so that means there's much more overlap.

我们也知道，影响指节比的其他因素还有很多，不仅仅是产前睾酮。

And we know that other things influence digit ratios too, not just prenatal testosterone.

因此，这也就是为什么它没有预测价值。

And so this is why there's no predictive value.

我的意思是，任何人在我们讨论这个话题时看了自己的手并感到担心，我并不了解你具体的产前睾酮水平，无论你的指节比是多少。

I mean, so anyone who looked at their hand while we were talking about this and got worried, I don't know anything about your particular prenatal testosterone level, no matter what your digit ratio is.

那双性恋呢？

What about bisexuality?

那些自认为对男女都具有吸引力的人。

People who identify as attracted to both men and women.

也许我们可以先问一下双性恋女性，再问双性恋男性。

And maybe we ask about first bisexual women, then bisexual men.

指节比是否存在某种模式能揭示什么规律？

Is there a pattern in digit ratios that leads anywhere?

我的意思是，那时候，自我认同为双性恋的人还不够多，无法形成一个合理的样本，这很有趣。

I mean, in those days, we didn't have enough people that identified as bisexual to to have a reasonable sample, and it's interesting.

而且这种情况已经改变了。

And that and that's something that's changed.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，现在做调查，尤其是针对年轻人，自我报告为双性恋的人比以前多了。

I mean, you do surveys now, especially for among younger people, there are more people who report that they are bisexual than they were then.

所以我真的没什么可说的。

So so I I don't really have anything to say about them.

我只想说，我确信，即使在女同性恋者中，也有不止一种途径，而是多种发展路径可以成为女同性恋者或男同性恋者。

The one thing I will say is I'm sure that even among lesbians, there's more than one pathway more than one developmental pathway to to to become a lesbian or to become a gay man.

对吧？

Right?

我不认为只有一种原因。

I I don't think there's just one thing.

人类行为不是这样的，但你

That's not how human behavior But you

你确实认为这是基于数据的生物学因素。

do think it's based on the data that it's biological.

基于这些数据，我认为睾酮有一定影响。

Based on that data, I think testosterone has a say.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

那并不意味着这就是全部，产前睾酮。

That it that doesn't mean it's the whole package Prenatal testosterone.

产前睾酮。

Prenatal testosterone.

我问这个问题的原因是，有些情况并不少见，比如一个人经历了特别压力大、持续时间长的发育阶段，有充分理由相信他们的雄激素受到了负面影响。

And the reason I ask that is, I mean, there are conditions that are not uncommon where someone has a particularly stressful, long phase of development where there's every reason to believe that their androgens are impacted negatively.

是的。

Yes.

也有充分的理由相信，在某些发展阶段，雄激素水平会升高。

There's also every reason to believe that there are stretches of development where androgens are increased.

比如，我们知道那些从事接触性运动或需要刻意表现出攻击性行为的人。

Like, we know that people who do a sort of a contact sport or engage in anything that requires like deliberate aggression.

我明白，真正的竞技性攻击。

I realize that real martial Competitiveness.

不，是竞争性的攻击。

No, competitive aggression.

知道如何控制自己的攻击水平，不至于陷入狂怒，对吧？

Know how to, you know, sort of gate their levels of aggression so that they're not like in a fury, right?

但我们知道，某些类型的活动，比如竞赛等。

But we know that certain types of activities competition, etc.

我的意思是，毫无疑问，这些活动会提高雄激素水平。

I mean, there's no question that those can increase androgens.

所以你可以想象，出生后存在一定的可塑性，可能是在青春期，或者在青春期期间。

So you can imagine there's some plasticity postnatally, could be puberty, it could be during puberty.

这就是睾酮。

And so that's testosterone.

正如你所说，作为一名发育神经生物学家，我以前从未听过如此清晰的表述，但这一点至关重要：从出生到12岁，大脑发育的速度至少和出生前一样快。

The body as you said, you said something that even as a developmental neurobiologist, I don't think I'd ever heard stated so clearly, and it's so important, the rate of brain development from birth until age 12 is at least as fast as it was before we're born.

是的，真正能说明这一点的方法是比较人类和黑猩猩的大脑发育。

Yeah, I mean, the way to really bring that home is to compare human brain growth and chimpanzee brain growth.

在出生前，人类和黑猩猩的大脑尺寸相对于身体尺寸的增长速率大致相同。

So up until birth, the rate at which the brain size increases compared to body size is about the same in humans and chimps.

出生后不久，黑猩猩的大脑生长速度就放缓，并很快趋于平稳。

And shortly after birth, the chimpanzee brain stops growing as fast and eventually asymptotes right away.

而人类的大脑则持续保持着类似胎儿时期的高速生长，至少持续到六岁，甚至可能到十岁。

The human brain continues that feverish fetal rate of growth until at least six years of age, maybe out there to 10 years of age.

因此，有人指出，从某种意义上说，人类儿童就像是出生在外的胎儿，正在从他人身上学习大量东西。

So people have pointed out that in in a real sense, human beings, children are fetuses that are outside learning a whole bunch of stuff from other people.

这正是我们物种的独特之处，我们拥有漫长的童年和强烈的社会学习能力，正如你所说，即使我们已经不再是胎儿，大脑仍保持着胎儿时期的生长速度。

That's the real distinctiveness of our species is, you know, we have this protracted childhood and really intense social learning, and as you say, a fetal rate of growth even though we're not in the fetus anymore.

所以对我来说，行为、接触外界事物——我不想去讨论负面或正面的价值判断，但比如农药，还有学校里的活动，都会产生影响。

So I guess for me, the idea that behavior, exposure to things, you know, and I don't want to get into valence of negative, positive, but sure, pesticides, but also, you know, schoolyard activities.

是的。

Yep.

如果你有五个兄弟姐妹，而且竞争非常激烈，比如谁该分到多少披萨？

If you have, and we'll get to this, you know, five siblings, and it's very competitive, who gets how much pizza?

我本人只有一个兄弟姐妹，所以竞争是有一点，但情况不一样。

I've been you know, I had one sibling, so it was a little bit know, there was competition, but it was different.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，这些因素都会影响荷尔蒙。

You know, these things change hormones.

荷尔蒙会改变大脑。

Hormones change the brain.

正如你所解释的，大脑会影响性取向。

The brain, as you're explaining, can impact sexual preference.

研究激素与行为的关系有一个很棒的地方，那就是至少在动物身上，我们可以控制激素水平。

What's great about studying hormones and behavior, right, is is that sometimes you can control the hormone in animals at least.

但关于激素与行为，人们不太理解的是，行为同样会影响激素，比如在竞争中，正如你所说。

But the hard thing about hormones and behavior that people don't understand is that behavior can affect hormones, as you say, in competitions.

获胜者之后往往会有更高的睾酮水平，而失败者则会降低。

The winners afterwards are more likely to have higher testosterone and the losers will have lower.

在选举中，研究表明，支持的候选人获胜的人，其睾酮水平会略有上升，而支持的候选人落败的人则会下降。

In elections, it's been shown that people whose candidate won the presidential election, their testosterone levels went up a little bit, and the people whose candidate lost went down a little.

因此，你总会遇到这种循环：激素改变行为，而行为又反过来影响激素，你必须不断寻找方法来确定因果顺序。

And so you'll always have this cycle where the hormone alters the behavior, and then the behavior alters the hormone, and you always have to look for ways to try to pin down the order of effects.

而且，这并不总是容易的。

And, you know, not always easy.

我唯一确定的是，大脑在我们的一生中都保持可塑性。

The only thing I know for sure is that the brain remains plastic all of our lives.

这个说法很重要，因为我同样相信大脑在我们的一生中都保持可塑性。

Well, statement is a significant one because I also believe that the brain remains plastic throughout our lives.

让我总是感到惊讶的是，下丘脑在我们一生中都保持可塑性。

It's always surprising to me that the hypothalamus remains plastic throughout our lives.

我觉得这值得进一步深入探讨一下。

And I think that's worth perhaps double clicking on, so to speak.

因为，你可以学习另一种语言，从而使新皮层发生变化；或者学习杂技，让运动皮层和小脑都发生变化。

Because, the idea that you can learn another language and your neocortex changes, or you can learn to juggle and your motor cortex changes, your cerebellum changes.

好的。

Okay.

有很多精彩的研究证明了这一点。

Like there's a lot of beautiful studies demonstrating that.

但当我想到下丘脑时，我总觉得它在青春期结束时就已经基本固定了。

But when I think about the hypothalamus, I think about it as something that's pretty hardwired by time puberty wraps up.

但我了解得越多，看到的发表数据越多，就越感到惊讶。

But the more I learn and the more data that get published, the more surprised I am.

前几天我看到一篇论文，指出控制食欲抑制的神经元——弓状核中的POMC神经元——有一部分处于未分化状态，可以转变为所谓的促饥饿状态，通过表达另一种肽类物质，即神经肽Y。

I saw a paper just the other day that the neurons that control suppression of appetite, these POMC neurons in the arcuate nucleus, there's a population of them that are sort of undifferentiated that can become, let's just call it pro hunger by expressing some a different peptide, neuropeptide Y.

这表明存在大量的晚期可塑性。

And that there's a lot of late stage plasticity.

这或许能解释为什么一些达到特定肥胖程度的人，即使没有进食，也会感到更饿。

And this may explain why people who reach a certain level of obesity may actually find that they're hungrier despite not eating food.

因此，这些更深层的脑结构竟然仍保持可塑性，这让我感到非常着迷。

So it's fascinating to me how these deeper brain structures may actually remain plastic.

我认为你的两个说法都是对的。

I think both your statements are true.

我认为新皮层的可塑性确实比下丘脑更强，但这是一种相对性的说法。

I think it's probably true that the neocortex is more plastic than the hypothalamus, but it's a matter of relativity.

正如你所说，我们唯一确定的是，那里确实存在大量的可塑性。

And so as you say, the one thing we know is that there's plenty of plasticity there.

我还注意到一件事，自从1977年以来，我每年都定期参加神经科学学会的会议。

Other thing I noticed, so I've gone to Society for Neuroscience meetings pretty regularly every year since 1977.

过了一段时间，我注意到了一件事。

And after a while I noticed something.

每年我去参加神经科学会议时，大脑的可塑性似乎都比前一年更强，对吧？

Every year when I went to the neuroscience meeting, the brain was more plastic than it was the year before, right?

因为这类证据越来越多，我觉得突触几乎可以在任何地方形成或消失。

Because there are more and more of these demonstrations, and it's like I think synapses can come and go just about anywhere.

所以，如果说下丘脑的可塑性较低，这可能是真的，但这并不意味着完全没有可塑性。

And so hardwired, let's say there might be less plasticity in the hypothalamus, surely so, but that doesn't mean there's none.

正如你们许多人知道的，我几乎已经连续十五年在服用AG1了。

As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly fifteen years now.

我早在2012年就发现了它，那时我还没开始做播客，但从那以后我每天都服用。

I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast and I've been taking it every day since.

我开始服用AG1的原因，也是我至今仍在服用的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1是市场上质量最高、成分最全面的基础营养补充剂。

The reason I started taking it and the reason I still take it is because AG1 is to my knowledge, highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原融合在单一勺子中，易于饮用，味道也很好。

It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink and it tastes great.

它的设计旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量水平。

It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy.

它通过帮助弥补你日常营养中可能存在的不足来实现这一点。

And it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition.

当然，每个人都应该努力摄入营养丰富的全食物。

Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods.

我每天确实都这么做，但人们经常问我，如果你只能选一种补充剂，你会选哪一种？

I certainly do that every day, but I'm often asked if you could take just one supplement, what would that supplement be?

我的答案始终是AG1，因为它对支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现至关重要。

And my answer is always AG1 because it has just been oh, so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance.

这是我个人使用AG1的经验之谈，我也不断听到其他每天使用AG1的人有同样的反馈。

I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily.

如果你想尝试AG1，可以前往drinkag1.com/huberman获取特别优惠。

If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

在有限时间内，AG1会为你订阅赠送六份免费的旅行装AG1和一瓶维生素D3K2。

For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription.

再次提醒，前往 drinkag1.com/huberman 可以在订阅时获得六份免费旅行装和一瓶维生素 D3K2。

Again, that's drinkag1 with the numeral1.com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription.

在人类研究中，还有哪些行为影响激素的其他效应让你印象深刻？

What are some of the other effects in human studies of behavior impacting hormones that come to mind for you?

我们已经很久没有讨论过这个话题了，而且在这档播客里也极少涉及。

I mean, it's been a while since we've touched into this and we haven't done it much on this podcast.

显然，竞争、胜者和败者，你之前解释过相关数据。

I mean, obviously competition, winners, losers, you explained the data there.

还有哪些其他情境？

What are some other scenarios?

有没有哪些研究在这些年里特别让你印象深刻或脱颖而出？

Just studies that that have been striking to you or that have stood out over the years?

没有。

No.

我认为对于睾酮来说，最重要的影响还是男性之间的竞争。

I think for testosterone, I think the big ones have been have have been competition, you know, between males.

而且确实没有别的了，我是说，确实存在压力反应，但那是完全不同的另一回事了。

And no, I don't you know, I mean, there there's a stress response, but that's a whole other thing.

那性行为本身呢？

What about sex behavior itself?

至少在动物身上是怎样的？

In animals, at least.

我们知道这两者之间存在关联，在绝大多数物种的雄性身上，就拿大鼠举例，如果你切除它们的睾酮，不出几周，它们就会彻底停止骑乘行为。

We know that that there's a relationship there, that that in in males in males of most species, let's take rats, if you take away the testosterone, within a few weeks, they'll they'll stop mounting altogether.

而如果你给它们补充睾酮，几周后它们就会重新开始骑跨行为。

And if you give them testosterone, after a few weeks, they they start mounting again.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们确认这种可塑性是真实存在的，而且它是由睾酮驱动的。

So we know that that plasticity is is there, and we know that it's driven by testosterone.

但对于那些能自主调控自身睾酮水平的动物来说，我们很早就发现：如果雄性接触到处于发情期的雌性的气味，它们的睾酮水平会骤升。

But in in animals where they're in charge of their own testosterone, we've known for a long time that if a male is exposed to the odors of a receptive female, that causes a spike in their testosterone.

所以这在某种程度上是在为可能发生的幸运事做准备。

And so that's kind of preparing them for maybe maybe some maybe I'll be lucky.

也许有什么好事即将来临。

Maybe there's something coming down the pike.

因此，当动物自身调控激素时，我们知道这是一种相互作用的关系。

And so we know that that's a reciprocal relationship when the animal's in charge of hormone.

长期以来，得益于你的教科书——顺便说一下，各位，马克撰写了一些关于激素与行为、发育神经生物学最重要的教科书。

For the longest time, thanks to your textbooks and by the way, folks, Marc has authored some of the most important textbooks on hormones and behavior, developmental neurobiology.

他是整个领域的真正学者。

He's a true scholar of the whole field.

因此，我非常感激他，因为这些教科书构成了我播客许多单集内容的基石。

And so I'm immensely grateful to him that those textbooks have formed the backbone of a lot of solo episodes of the podcast.

关于男性与女性性行为的教科书版本，一直讲述的是：女性拥有一个从大脑到身体的回路，控制着被称为‘仰卧位反应’的现象——即下背部拱起、表现出接受交配的意愿；而男性则拥有一个从大脑到脊髓再到身体的回路，涉及 arousal、勃起、交配、插入和射精。

You know, the textbook version of male versus female sexual behavior has been a story about females having a circuit that goes from brain to body to control this thing called lordosis, the arching of the lower back, the receptivity, the willingness to mate, and the males having a circuit that goes from brain to spinal cord to body involving arousal, erection, mounting, insertion, ejaculation.

我的实验室和其他团队已经将这些机制解析到了非常细致的层面。

I mean, your lab and others has really parsed this right down to the details.

但当然，人们不仅以这种方式发生性行为，还有其他方式。

And yet, of course, people have sex that way, but also other ways.

因此，对于许多不熟悉激素、神经回路和行为的人来说，这种严格的框架仍然是他们的认知基础。

And so for a lot of people who aren't familiar with hormones and neural circuits and behavior, the sort of strict context kind of is still forms the framework.

你知道的吗？

You know?

我的意思是，我已经学到了很多，而且很幸运的是，这个播客已经存在五年多了，所以我现在不必再回避这些问题了。

I mean, I've learned, and I'm now fortunate that this podcast has been around more than five years, so I no longer have to tap dance around things.

对吧？

Right?

所以人们会说，哦，你知道，雌性会有这种俯卧姿势行为。

So people will say, oh, well, you know, there's this lordosis behavior in the female.

她是否愿意接受交配。

She's she's receptive or not.

雄性则会进行攀爬等行为。

He mounts, etcetera.

还有那些同性恋男性，他们必须以某种方式发生性行为，模仿女性的行为模式。

And then there's gay men who have to have sex a certain way that mimics the female pattern of behavior.

所以人们就这样一一对应地看待。

And so people do this one to one.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，如果一个人缺乏相关教育，他们这样想是可以理解的。

And I think that it's understandable why they do that if they're not educated.

但我们该如何理解教科书中那些定义刻板化运动行为的生物回路呢？

But how should we make sense of these biological circuits that are in the textbooks that define stereotyped literally motor behavior?

这几乎就像说：女性以这种方式与男性发生性行为，男性以这种方式与女性发生性行为。

It's almost like saying like females have sex this way with males, males have sex this way with females.

但紧接着总会有个例外：哦，但在人类中，这一切都不成立了。

But then the caveat is always like, oh, but in humans, all that goes away.

还有一些像倭黑猩猩这样的动物，它们更接近人类。

And there's these like bonobos that are a little bit more like humans.

那我们是不是白费了时间研究这些东西？

So did we waste all our time studying that stuff?

我的意思是，真的吗？

I mean, really.

你正好点出了每个教科书作者都必须面对的问题。

And you're getting at exactly what every textbook author has to deal with.

对吧？

Right?

就像那个老笑话所说，你总是在有光的地方找东西。

Which is, you know, as the old joke go, you look where the light is.

对吧？

Right?

因此，我们对参与运动行为的神经回路了解得更多，因为它们相对容易追踪、操控和研究。

So we know so much more about the circuits that are involved in the motor behaviors because they're relatively easy to trace and relatively easy to manipulate and relatively easy to study.

我们对动物的运动模式了解很多。

We know lots about the motor patterns in animals.

我们对动物的动机模式了解得少得多，而在人类的性行为中，这在很多方面才是整个关键。

We know a lot less about the motivational patterns in animals, which in human sexual behavior is I mean, in many ways, that's the whole show.

你知道的吧？

You know?

那才是真正的重点，而我们其实并没有很好的动物模型来研究性欲。

That's that's really what's and and we don't really have good animal models of of libido.

对吧？

Right?

很多年前，这一点曾深深触动了我。

And this was brought home to me many years ago now.

我当时参加了一个CBS新闻节目，时长六十分钟。

I I was on a session of sixty minutes, the CBS News program.

莱斯利·斯塔尔当时在我们的实验室里。

And Leslie Stahl was there in our lab.

我的意思是，制片人给我打电话，说你能给我们展示一下，早期的睾酮暴露是如何永久改变行为的吗？

I mean, the producers had called me up and said, you know, can you show us a way that that early testosterone exposure changes behavior permanently?

我说，当然可以。

And I said, sure.

我能做到。

I can do that.

给我点时间。

Give me some time.

于是我回到实验室，在老鼠出生当天给它们做了阉割。

So I went to the lab and castrated a bunch of rats on the day of birth.

我知道怎么做。

I know how to do that.

我不为此感到自豪，但我确实知道怎么做。

I'm not proud of it, but I I know how to do that.

三个月后他们回来了。

And they came three months later.

于是我向他们展示了你提到的那些运动模式。

And so I I showed them those motor patterns you talk about.

这是一个典型的雌性大鼠。

So here's a typical female.

我给她注射了雌激素和孕激素，所以我知道她会表现出接受行为。

I've given her hormones, estrogen and progesterone, so I know she's gonna be receptive.

这是一只我了解的、有过多次交配经验的雄性大鼠。

And here's a male rat that I know has had lots of experience copulating.

莱斯利立刻管他叫罗密欧。

And Leslie immediately dubbed him Romeo.

好的。

Okay.

这位就是罗密欧。

Well, this is Romeo.

顺便说一下，她非常讨厌老鼠。

And it it she hates rats, by the way.

所以她非常勇敢。

So she she was she was very brave.

于是我将一只雌性老鼠放在罗密欧身上，他立刻开始交配，而雌性则展现出 lordosis 姿势。

And so I drop a female on top of Romeo, and he starts mounting, and she shows the lordosis posture.

整个过程非常完美顺利。

And it's all beautiful and easy.

我们这样做了好几次。

And we do that several times.

我说，现在我要放一只雄性对照鼠进去。

I said, now I'm I'm gonna drop a male, a control male in.

而罗密欧，当然，你不试一下就不知道会怎样。

And Romeo, of course, you know, you don't know unless you try.

他多次尝试交配，但那只雄性老鼠却表现得若无其事。

He mounts several times, and the male rat acts like nothing's going on.

我的意思是，那只雄性就像个无聊的旁观者，罗密欧最终放弃了。

I mean, it's just a bored thing on earth, and Romeo eventually gives up.

现在，我把一只出生当天就被阉割、九十年前就接受过与雌性相同激素处理的雄性大鼠放进笼子里。

Now I drop into the cage of a male rat who I castrated on the day of birth ninety days before, and I've given him the same hormones I gave the female to make her receptive.

罗密欧跳了上去，果然展现出优美的后弓姿势。

Romeo hops on, and sure enough, a beautiful lordosis.

对吧？

Right?

这种行为是那只对照组雄性从未表现过的。

That of the sort that the that the control male never showed.

所以，这只出生后不久就被阉割的雄性大鼠表现出非常雌性的行为模式。

So here, this pre this this neonatally castrated male is showing very female like patterns.

斯塔尔女士不断问我：你会说这是一只同性恋大鼠吗？

And miss Stall kept asking me, would you say this is a gay rat?

我当时坐在那儿，确实很为难，因为我觉得我的大鼠并没有性取向。

And it's you know, I'm sitting there, and I'm I'm definitely in a tough spot because I don't think my rats have an orientation.

我的意思是，我们刚看到罗密欧开心地扑向我扔进笼子的任何一只大鼠，你懂的？

I mean, we we just saw Romeo happily mount any rat I threw in the cage because what do you know?

你知道的，试试运气吧。

You know, try your luck.

所以，她问我，我知道她希望我这么说，但我回答说，我记不清最终到底说了什么。

And so, you know, she asked me, said and I I knew she wanted me to say that, but I said, what I would say I don't remember exactly what ended up in the final.

我会说，这只老鼠的性行为因为早期发育阶段发生的一件事而发生了永久性改变。

What I would say is that this is a rat whose sexual behavior has been permanently changed because of something that happened to him a long time ago at the very beginning of development.

事实上，这已经是我在老鼠模型中对性取向所能做的最好解释了。

And and really, that's the best I can do in terms of any rat model of sexual orientation.

我不认为我的老鼠有性取向。

I don't think my rats have a sexual orientation.

如果我给雌鼠这些激素，她会对任何骑在她身上的老鼠表现出仰卧位。

If I give the female those hormones, she's going to show lordosis to whoever mounts her.

而我的雄鼠，只要遇到任何老鼠，都会去交配，以防错过机会。

And my male rat, he he will mount any rat he comes across just in case he gets overdoses out of him.

你没有被逼着给出特定答案，这很好。

Well, good on you for not getting corralled into giving a particular answer.

我最近加入了CBS，担任记者。

I've recently joined CBS as a correspondent.

如果我们在这期《60分钟》中讨论这个话题，我承诺不会试图强加一个答案。

If we have this conversation on sixty minutes, I promise to not, try and force an answer.

罗密欧是个有趣的案例，因为我认为对大多数人，包括我自己来说，我以为你会说罗密欧愿意尝试与雌性交配。

Romeo is an interesting case because I think for most people, including myself, I thought that you were going to say that Romeo was willing to try to mount a female.

如果

If

如果她愿意接受，他就会交配。

she was receptive, he would mate.

如果不愿意，他就不交配。

If not, he wouldn't.

但让我惊讶的是，他也会尝试与雄性交配。

But I was surprised that he would try to mount a male as well.

这至少与我所了解的男性人类行为不符。

That doesn't align, at least with my experience, of of male human behavior.

当然不是。

Well, certainly not.

没错。

That's right.

人类独特之处在于，我们其实并不特别在意自己从事的具体行为或动作模式，而更关注伴侣是谁。

This is the thing that's distinctive about humans is we're not actually that particular about what particular behaviors we engage in, what motor behaviors, and we're overwhelmingly interested in who our partner is.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

这对我来说是一个压倒性的关注点，我认为我的老鼠并没有这种倾向。

That is an overriding concern that that I don't think my rats have.

我觉得很少有动物会有这种倾向。

I think I think few animals do.

假设你是一位来自火星的人类学家，我告诉你：这里有一个人，50%的时间和这个人在一起，另外50%的时间和今年《人物》杂志评选的最性感男人在一起。

Here's the you're the anthropologist from Mars, and and I tell you, here's a person that 50% here's whoever's the sexiest man alive this year, People Magazine.

不知道这个人是谁

Don't know who that happens

是。

to be.

这整个讨论其实很有趣，因为人们一直把这些人形象化，并声称他们有点像那种娘娘腔的流浪汉。

Well, this is an interesting discussion altogether because there's this people have been lining up the images of these people and claiming that they're sort of like this like, effeminate drift Ah.

这让我们回到了九十年代初，当时人们对男性面部特征有过一番重新审视。

That takes us back to a time in the early nineties when there was this sort of revision about male male facials.

我们可以再回到那个话题。

We can get back to that.

但是，是的。

But yeah.

好的。

Okay.

重点并不是它固定不变。

It's not the point being that it's not fixed.

谁，是的。

Who yes.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧，比如说，是乔治·克鲁尼。

Well well, whoever let's say it's George Clooney.

所以，有一个人，地球上有一半的人认为他是理想的性伴侣。

So so here's someone that half the planet believes is an ideal sexual partner.

对吧？

Right?

但另一半人却觉得他完全不可接受，即使他们所从事的行为几乎是一样的。

But the other half of the planet finds him totally unacceptable even if the behaviors they engaged in would be pretty much the same.

因此，关于医生对谁的生殖器做了什么等等，对于大多数人来说，并不是必须有一种特定的行为。

And so, you know, in terms of physicians and who's doing what to whose genitalia, etcetera, I mean, for for for most people, it it isn't that there has to be one particular act.

我想，可能有一些。

I suppose there's some.

但对大多数人来说，他们可能希望与对方进行多种行为。

But for most people, there there may be a variety of acts that they that they want to be engaged in with that other person.

而他们最关心的是对方的性别或性别的差异。

And their overwhelming concern is the the gender of that other person or the sex of that other person.

你知道，要为这种现象建立动物模型是很困难的。

You know, it's it's hard to have an animal model of that.

我确实知道一个在羊身上的例子，如果你想聊聊的话。

I I actually do know one example in sheep, if you wanna talk about this.

真是出人意料。

Of all things.

是的。

Yes.

哦，我注意到了。

Oh, I I I noticed it.

俄勒冈州的查克·罗塞利是专门仔细研究这一现象的人。

So Chuck Roselli out at out at Oregon, he's the one that studied this very carefully.

我想牧羊人早就知道，在任何羊群中，都有一些公羊永远不会去交配母羊，而总是去交配其他公羊。当然，为了维持羊群，你并不需要每个公羊都进行繁殖。

I guess shepherds have known for ages that in any herd, there are some rams who will not mount a female ever and keep mounting other males and of course, to maintain a shepherd to maintain a herd, you don't need every male to reproduce.

所以在过去，这些公羊会被送去屠宰。

So but in the old days, they got those males got sent off to slaughter.

对吧？

Right?

听到这些传闻后，查克做了这些实验，他把一群母羊固定在支架上，让它们无法移动，而且都处于发情状态。

Well, hearing these rumors, Chuck did these tests where he would put a bunch of females that are in stocks so they can't move, and they're all ready for mating.

然后他把一只公羊放进去。

And he put a ram in with them.

当然，大多数公羊都会去交配母羊。

And most rams, of course, will mount the females.

他把那些偏好公羊的公羊放进去。

He he puts in these rams that that prefer males.

如果有各种母羊的屁股朝向他，他就会去交配公羊，有时甚至会从肛门插入直到射精，而从不交配母羊。

If there's a variety of sheep's butt sticking at him out at him, he'll mount males, including sometimes, you know, having intermission through the anus and all the way to ejaculation, and and he never mounts a female.

在某些情况下，他们会养一只这样的羊，我称之为同性恋公羊。

In some cases, they'll have one of these I'm gonna call them gay rams.

我认为它们是有性取向的。

I think I think they have an orientation.

他会把这只同性恋公羊放进一群大约十二只母羊的围栏里，它可能在围栏里待上十二个小时，却从不交配任何一只母羊。

He'll put this gay ram where there's a dozen females, and he might be in that paddock for twelve hours and never mount a single female.

这对公羊来说非常不寻常。

Highly unusual for male rams.

这些并不是普通的公羊。

And these are not typical ram.

这就像种群中的一小部分。

There's it's like a small percentage of population.

而且，我不知道该怎么解释这一点。

And, and I don't know how to explain that.

我的意思是，你可能会觉得，同性恋公羊的射精和异性交配的射精没什么区别。

I mean, you would think that the that these gay rams that well, you know, an ejaculation is an ejaculation.

对吧？

Right?

高潮就是高潮。

An orgasm is an orgasm.

我猜你会觉得，至少在这里没什么别的事可做，总该去骑一匹母羊吧。

I presume they have you would think that at some point that, well, there's nothing else to do in here.

我会去骑那些母羊，但他们从不这么做。

I'll mount one of these ewes, and they never do.

我不知道该怎么解释这一点，除了说它们对伴侣的性别有某种抵触情绪——这些同性恋公羊确实会在意伴侣的性别，对它们来说，与母羊交配会带来某种负面感受。

And I don't know how you can explain that except that there's some aversive component that that that that rams do care about the sex of their partner, and that and that for these gay rams, there's some aversive component to that.

顺便说一下，查克不久前告诉我，有一家公司已经识别出了这些同性恋公羊，决定不再把它们送去屠宰，而是剪下它们的羊毛，做成衣服出售。

By the way, Chuck told me not too long ago, there's a company that has identified these gay rams and decided that instead of sending them off to slaughter, they're gonna harvest their wool and sell them as and and make them into clothing.

所以你可以买到由同性恋公羊的羊毛制成的衣物，而且你知道。

So you you can buy you can buy wool clothing that that came from gay rams and and know

你救了它们，没让它们被送去屠宰场。

that you saved them from the slaughterhouse.

对于那个说法，没有合适的回应。

There's no response that's appropriate to to that statement.

而且，显然，他们，你知道，他们已经断货了。

And, apparently, they apparently, they they, you know, they they're out of stock.

所以这非常成功。

So it's it's been a big success.

实际上，我能想到五十种不同的回应。

Actually, can think about 50 different responses to that.

但这些回应没有一个合适，也没有任何真正的概念意义。

None none of which are are appropriate or have any real conceptual importance.

所以，我不会说。

So I I I won't I won't say.

很有趣，因为公羊当然有社会动态，但除了繁殖压力之外，似乎没有其他压力促使它们成为同性恋公羊或异性恋公羊。

Fascinating because Rams, while, of course, they have sociodynamics, presumably there isn't a pressure independent of reproductive pressure to to be a gay ram or a straight ram.

我差点忘了最关键的：查克最终解剖了这些公羊的前视区，发现同性恋公羊和异性恋公羊的前视区存在差异，它们在睾酮处理方式上有所不同。

And I I guess I I left off the kicker, which is Chuck eventually dissected the preoptic areas of these various rams, and he found a difference between the preoptic area of gay rams and and straight rams, a difference in how they process testosterone.

正是大脑中西蒙发现同性恋者与异性恋者存在差异的那部分区域，即视前区。

And and exactly that part of the brain, the preoptic area where Simon saw a difference between gay and straight men.

因此，下丘脑的视前区可能与性取向有关，如果我们讨论的是足够复杂、拥有性取向的生物，包括绵羊的话。

So there may be something about the hypothalamus, the preoptic area that has something to do with orientation, if we're talking about an organism as complicated enough to have an orientation, including sheep.

这不仅是本集的一个特别精彩时刻，更是整个播客叙事中的一个亮点。

This is a particularly nice moment, not just for this episode, but for the entire podcast arc.

因为偶尔会出现这样的时刻，某个更大的原则以一种全新的方式显现出来，我认为这对人们理解至关重要。

Because there are these moments that come up every once in a while where a larger principle shows up in a new way that I think is really important for people to understand.

在神经科学领域，我们经常看到这种相互制约的关系，对吧？

Across neuroscience we see this push pull, right?

比如肱二头肌这样的屈肌。

A flexor muscle like the bicep.

当它收缩时，肱三头肌就会放松。

When it flexes, the tricep relaxes.

当肱三头肌收缩时，肱二头肌就会放松。

When the tricep flexes, the bicep relaxes.

这些对抗性关系。

These antagonistic relationships.

你在饥饿回路中也能看到这一点。

You see this in the hunger circuit.

我之前提到过一个，比如饥饿和饱腹感就像一种推拉关系。

I mentioned one earlier, like hunger and feeling full are they're like a push pull.

它们就像跷跷板。

They're like a seesaw.

你一遍又一遍地看到这种现象。

You see this over and over and over again.

这是大脑功能中一个非常一致的主题。

It's a very consistent theme of brain function.

你提到一件事，我之前并不知道，但完全说得通。

And you said something that I was not aware of, but it makes perfect sense.

我只是不知道有像你描述的那样层面的数据，显然性行为中存在一种欲望层面。

I just wasn't aware that there were data at the level you described, which is clearly there's an appetitive aspect to sex behavior.

异性男性希望与女性发生性关系。

Heterosexual males wanting to have sex with females.

异性女性希望与男性发生性关系，等等。

Heterosexual females wanting to have sex with males, and so on.

所有这些衍生表现都存在。

Every derivation there.

这是一种欲望。

There's a desire.

在那些依赖信息素和气味决定接受性的物种中，这种行为表现得比较直接。

In species where there's strong pheromone and odor determination and receptivity stuff gets played out that way, it looks one way.

在人类中，虽然可能也存在一些类似机制，但表现方式却不同。

In humans, it may have some of that, but it plays out different way.

接受性的表达方式也不同。

Receptivity is communicated differently.

尽管气味在我们尚未完全理解的方面可能非常重要。

Although odor may be very important in ways we don't quite fully understand.

但这种认为其中带有厌恶成分的观点。

But this idea that there's an aversive aspect to it.

对吧？

Right?

我认为这一点很重要，而且是我以前从未听人讨论过的。

I think this is important, and it's something that I have not heard discussed before.

我认为这在社会学上具有相关性，因为我认为关于人类有同性恋、异性恋以及可能的双性恋这些不同类别，其中包含着许多不同的层面。

And I think that sociologically it has relevance, because I think that there's so many different aspects to the notion that our species, humans, come in gay and straight and perhaps bisexual varieties.

我们知道这是事实。

We know that's true.

显然。

Clearly.

但有一种并不罕见的现象，即许多人——我只能说许多人，不是所有人——对与同性发生性关系这一概念感到厌恶。

But there is this not uncommon theme whereby many people, I can only say many people, right, not all, that the concept of mating with same sex is aversive to them.

而这塑造了围绕这一问题的许多现状。

And that has shaped a lot of the landscape around this.

我并不是想在这里谈政治。

And I'm I'm not trying to get political here.

我只是觉得，这可能确实是一个真实的现象，值得承认。

It's just I think it's it's worth acknowledging that that may be a real phenomenon too.

我并不是想为任何人的虐待行为辩护，但我认为，除非我们真正理解生物学机制并学会与之共处，否则我们作为社会性物种永远无法达到我们想要的目标。

I'm not trying to justify mistreatment of anybody, but I think that we're never gonna get where we wanna go as a as a species societally, until we really at least understand the biology and how to work with it.

所以，同性性行为这个概念对某些人来说可能是令人反感的。

And so the idea that same sex sex, right, would be aversive as an idea to people.

有些人会说，哦，那是他们没受过教育。

Some people are like, oh, well, they haven't been educated.

好吧。

Okay.

也许吧。

Perhaps.

但这种现象背后可能存在生物学基础。

You know, but there may be a biological basis for that.

我认为数据仍然不明确，但对我来说，至少对男性而言，这里存在一种不对称性。

I think the data are still out, and I but I think it's to me at least, it's pretty clear that for men, at least, for there's an asymmetry here.

就是那个实验，我说，你知道，谁愿意和乔治·克鲁尼发生关系？

That that experiment where I said, you know, who wants to have sex with George Clooney?

一半的人说，当然愿意。

Half the population says, sure.

另一半人则说，绝不可能。

The other half population, never.

如果我们反过来做这个实验，有多少人想和玛格特·罗比发生关系？

If we reverse the experiment, what percentage wanna have sex with Margot Robbie?

是的，一半的人口，也就是男性，会把她视为非常有吸引力的性伴侣。

And, yeah, half the population, the men would see her as a very desirable sexual partner.

但你知道，很多女性也会至少考虑和她发生关系的可能性。

But, you know, the women too would many women would also would at least consider the idea of having sex with her.

而且我们知道，不少女性在生命中的某个阶段是异性恋，后来却爱上了女性，于是觉得自己是同性恋。

And and we know there are plenty of women who are straight in one part of their lives, and later they fall in love with a woman, and now they feel like they're they're gay.

对吧？

Right?

所以女性在性渴望和性取向上比男性更具可塑性。

So females, women, are more plastic in terms of their sexual longings and sexual orientation than men are.

我再具体一点。

I'll I'll be a little more specific.

我认为在男性中，对许多男性（并非所有）来说，与同性发生性关系的想法是令人反感的。

I I think it's among males where sometimes, for many males, not all, there's an aversive idea that that the idea of having sex with the same sex partner is aversive.

当然，情境很重要。

Now, of course, context matters.

对吧？

Right?

在监狱里，同性行为经常发生，你知道，当环境条件足够极端时。

There's same sex happening in prisons all the time when you know, if the conditions are are enough.

我不清楚这种反感的根源来自哪里。

And and I don't know where that aversive component came from.

这可能是我们的社会通过后天灌输形成的，你知道的，早在我们意识到之前就已经如此了。

It could be that our society maybe it's all socially inculcated, you know, again, before we're aware of it at all.

但我认为至少存在一种可能性，那就是这背后有生物学因素，我认为查克所指的就是大脑中的这种差异。

But I I think there's also at least the possibility that there's a biological component to it, and I and I think that's what Chuck was getting at in that here's this difference in the brain.

他并不知道前视区的这种差异是什么时候发生的，但似乎与这样一个观点相关：这些公羊可能知道自己对与母羊交配毫无兴趣。

He he doesn't know when the difference happened in the preoptic areas, but it seems to correlate with this idea that maybe these gay rams know they they they're not interested in having sex with her.

对他们来说，这仅仅是令人反感的。

They're, you know, only aversive to them.

这让人反感。

It's aversive.

是的。

Yeah.

我想不到其他任何方式来解释，为什么它们从不、一次都没有去交配过母羊。

There's no other way to I can't I don't know any other way to explain, how they choose never to never once mount a female.

我认为，承认性伴侣选择中存在反感路径，与承认同性恋的生物学关联同样重要。

I feel like that the acknowledgment of a aversive pathway for sexual partner choice is as important as the acknowledgment of biological correlates of homosexuality.

是的。

Yeah.

因为如果这种对话变得过于超前，超出了我们现在愿意谈论的范围，人们对科学的信任就会消失。

Because if this sort of conversation is ever too advanced, past the sort of like, okay, what's okay to say now that we're willing to say now, trust in science disappears.

我真的这么认为。

I really believe that.

当然，问题是人们会利用他们听到的片段，来支持自己持有的任何立场。

Now, of course, the problem is that people leverage fragments of what they hear in order to make arguments in favor of whatever stance they have.

这就是复杂的部分。

And that's the complication.

这就是为什么我喜欢长篇对话，因为无论提取出什么内容，我们都可以回到完整的对话中。

That's why I like long form because no matter what gets pulled out, we can go back to the full conversation.

对。

Right.

这让你显得过时了，因为这并不是我们所处的世界——我们的世界似乎正飞速朝着这种‘是的’前进。

And this makes you old fashioned, because this that's not the world I mean, our world seems to be hurtling towards this Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，一个由碎片组成的世界。

I mean World of snippets.

人们会注意到，我们没有使用‘性别’这个词。

People will notice that we have not used the word gender.

我们谈论的是生物性别和性行为，以及男性与女性伴侣的选择。

We're talking about biological sex and sex the act, And we're talking about male versus female partner choice.

我们谈论的是对其中一方的渴望和对另一方的排斥。

And we're talking about a desire for one or the other and an aversion to one or the other.

我认为‘排斥’这一点是一个重要的主题。

And I think the aversion piece is an important theme.

所以这里有一个假设。

So here's a hypothesis.

如果我能去休个学术假。

I If can come do a sabbatical.