自然及其他物理环境如何影响你的专注力、认知与健康 | Marc Berman博士

欢迎来到Huberman Lab播客，在这里我们讨论科学以及基于科学的日常工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天的嘉宾是Mark Berman博士。

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Doctor. Mark Berman. Doctor.

Mark Berman博士是芝加哥大学心理学教授，并领导环境神经科学实验室。他的研究聚焦于我们身处的物理环境，尤其是自然环境，如何影响大脑功能、心理健康和认知表现。在今天的节目中，我们将探讨一个迷人且可操作的科学话题：你的室内物理环境，特别是你与大自然的关系和互动，如何塑造你的生物学和认知能力。Berman博士解释了接触自然中非常常见的特征，例如分形图案，如何提高你的专注力、减轻压力，并改善你的心理和身体健康——不仅在你身处自然时如此，在你回到室内后的数小时甚至数天内仍然有效。

Mark Berman is a professor of psychology at the University of Chicago, where he directs the Environmental Neuroscience Laboratory. His research focuses on how our physical environments, particularly natural environments impact our brain function, mental health, and cognitive performance. During today's episode, we discussed the fascinating and actionable science of how your physical surroundings indoors, and in particular your relationship and interactions with nature can shape your biology and your cognitive abilities. Doctor. Berman explains how exposure to very common features in nature, such as fractal patterns, increase your ability to focus, reduce your stress, and improve your mental and physical health And not just while you're in nature, but after you return indoors for many hours and even days afterwards.

在今天的节目中，你将了解到所谓的“注意力恢复理论”，这对于理解不同类型的室内和室外环境如何消耗或恢复你的认知资源至关重要。我们还讨论了任何人都可以实施的、基于科学的实用策略，无论你住在哪里。所以，无论你是住在公寓还是独栋房屋，无论你是否有便捷的自然接触机会，今天的节目都会解释如何设计你的室内空间、自然暴露的最佳时长和时机，以及能够为你带来最大认知和健康益处的具体视觉和听觉元素。因此，无论你是学生还是职场人士，希望提升学习能力、专注力、减少倦怠，还是仅仅对通过接触自然元素来优化身心健康感兴趣，今天的节目都提供了基于严谨科学研究的清晰可操作方案。到本期节目结束时，你将拥有一套基于证据的策略工具包，这将改变你与室内和室外环境的关系，并学会利用它们来改善你的大脑和身体。

During today's episode, you'll learn about something called attention restoration theory, which turns out to be very important for understanding how different types of indoor and outdoor environments either deplete or restore your cognitive resources. We also discuss practical science based strategies that anyone can implement regardless of where you live. So if you're in an apartment or a house, if you have ready access to nature, if you don't, today's episode explains how to design your indoor space, the optimal duration and timing of nature exposure, and the specific visual and auditory elements that will provide you with the greatest cognitive and health benefits. So whether you're a student or a professional looking to enhance your learning capacity, focus, reduce your burnout, you're simply interested in optimizing your mental and physical health through exposure to different elements of nature, today's episode provides clear actionable protocols based on rigorous scientific research. By the end of today's episode, you'll have a toolkit of evidence based strategies that will transform your relationship with your indoor environment and outdoor environments, and you'll learn to harness those to improve your brain and body.

在开始之前，我想强调，本播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究职责是分开的。然而，它体现了我希望并努力将零成本的科学及科学相关工具信息带给公众的愿望。秉承这一主题，今天的节目也有赞助商支持。现在，请听我与我与Mark Berman博士的对话。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Doctor. Mark Berman.

Mark Berman博士，欢迎。

Doctor. Mark Berman, welcome.

很高兴来到这里，Andrew。

Great to be here, Andrew.

我喜欢身处大自然。所以我对今天的对话感到兴奋——虽然是在室内进行的，但我们将讨论大脑、自然、压力、反刍思维之间的关系，以及与自然世界的互动对我们大脑产生的惊人力量。随着我们深入探讨，我想先谈谈“重获注意力能力”这个问题。因为我认为如今每个人，无论是否被临床诊断为ADHD，还是只是地球上的普通人，都感觉自己的注意力被拉向不同方向，有时我们意识到了，有时却没有。

I love being out in nature. So I'm excited about today's conversation, which is taking place indoors. But we're going to talk about the relationship between the mind, the brain, nature, stress, rumination, and this incredible power that interactions with the natural world can have on our brain. As we wade into this, I'd like to start with this issue of recapturing our attentional abilities. Because I think nowadays, everybody, whether they're clinically diagnosed with ADHD, or they are just a human being on the planet, feels as if their attention is being pulled in different directions, sometimes without our awareness, sometimes with our awareness.

“重获注意力”这个概念是什么？

What is this notion of recapturing attention?

是的，我认为这是一个非常基本的概念。表面上，人们可能只是觉得注意力就是孩子在学校专心听讲，或者是在工作中集中注意力，但实际上它比这更深层。我们认为注意力的要素几乎参与了我们所有行为的控制。当我们的注意力被耗尽时，我们的冲动控制能力就会下降，我们可能会表现出更强的攻击性，也可能无法实现自己的目标。

Yeah, think it's a really fundamental concept. And we think that attention, you know, maybe on the surface of it, people just kind of think about, oh, it's kids trying to pay attention to school or oh, it's trying to pay attention at work but it's actually deeper than that. We kind of think that elements of attention are sort of involved in controlling all of our behaviors. And when our attention is depleted, we don't have as much impulse control, we might behave more aggressively. You know, we may not be able to achieve our goals.

在现代世界的许多事物影响下，我们的注意力正被不断消耗，我们变得精疲力竭。而给这块“电池”充电，或者知道如何充电，变得非常困难。我想这就是我对此产生兴趣的切入点。我的一位导师Steve Kaplan曾谈到我们许多人面临的“定向注意力疲劳”问题。我们的祖先在几千年前并没有像我们现在这样被海量信息轰炸。如今，现代人必须挑选该注意什么，这令人不堪重负。Steve Kaplan提出，人类其实有两种不同类型的注意力。

And with a lot of things in the modern world, our attention is just being fatigued, and we're depleted. And it's really hard to recharge the battery or know what to do to recharge the battery and I think that's kind of the entry point why I sort of got into interested in this and one of my mentors, Steve Kaplan, would talk about this directed attention fatigue problem that a lot of us are facing. You know, our ancestors, you know, thousands and thousands of years ago were not bombarded with so much information like we are now. Now, the modern human has to sort of pick and choose what to pay attention to and it's kind of overwhelming. And Steve Kaplan had this idea that humans kind of have two different kinds of attention.

所以，有一种注意力叫做定向注意力。这种注意力就是我刚才一直在讲的那种，是由你作为个体来决定要关注什么的注意力。所以，假设安德鲁，你正在决定关注我说的话，尽管你可能发现还有很多其他事情比我说的话更有趣，这是一种非常独特的人类能力。也许还有其他物种也能决定自己要关注什么，但我们人类真的非常擅长。人类非常、非常擅长专注于这场讲座、阅读这篇论文、专心解这道数学题，但我们无法永远保持这种状态。

So, one kind of attention is called directed attention. That's kind of the attention that I've been talking about just recently here and that's the kind of attention where you as an individual person are deciding what to pay attention to. So, presumably, Andrew, you're deciding to pay attention to what I'm saying even though there's many other things you could find that might be more inherently interesting than what I'm saying and this is kind of a very, unique human capability. There may be other species that can kind of decide what to pay attention to, but we're really good at it. Humans are really, really good at being able to like focus on this lecture, on reading this paper, focus on trying to finish this math problem, but we can't do it forever.

我想每个人都经历过那种感觉：在漫长的工作日结束时，大概下午三四点，你可能只是盯着电脑屏幕，却再也集中不了注意力。我们称这种状态为“定向注意力疲劳”，此时你再也控制不了自己的注意力焦点。我在芝加哥大学讲课时经常见到这种情况，而且我觉得我还算是个不错的讲师。上课前五分钟，所有学生的眼睛都看着我，他们很投入，我看到他们点头回应我；但到了我讲课的第四十五分钟，我就看到人们像这样点头。

And I think everybody kind of has had that sensation where at the end of a long workday, maybe three or 04:00, you might be just staring at the computer screen and you can't focus anymore. And we call that a directed attention fatigue state where you can't really control your attentional focus anymore and I I I see this all the time when I'm lecturing at the University of Chicago and I and I think I'm a decent lecturer. First five minutes of class, all the students eyes are on me. They're engaged. You know, I see they're nodding along with me and you know, forty five minutes into my lecture, I kind of see people nodding back like this.

他们累了。让人们长时间定向注意力就是很难。所以，这就是那种特殊的注意力——定向注意力。我们认为还有另一种注意力，我们称之为“非自主注意力”。这种注意力会被环境中有趣的刺激自动吸引。

They're getting tired. It's just hard for people to direct their attention for long periods of time. So, that's that's kind of the special attention, directed attention. We think there's this other kind of attention that we call involuntary attention. And that's the kind of attention that's automatically captured by interesting stimulation in the environment.

比如明亮的灯光、巨大的声响，那些东西会自动抓住我们的注意力，我们对此几乎无法控制。我们认为这种注意力——非自主注意力——不太容易疲劳或耗尽。所以你很少听人说：“哦，我再也看不了那座美丽的瀑布了，它太有趣了，我得走开”，或者“我得停止看这部电影了”。

So bright lights, loud noises, those things automatically capture our attention, and we don't really have much control over it. And we think that kind of attention, this involuntary attention is less susceptible to fatigue or depletion. So you don't often hear people say, oh, I can't look at that beautiful waterfall anymore. It's just too interesting. I I gotta step away or, oh, I have to stop watching this movie.

“它太有趣了，我已经累坏了。”所以这是另一种不同的注意力，我们认为现代社会正在发生的是：我们的定向注意力被耗尽了。但也许我们可以通过进入那些能轻柔地吸引我们非自主注意力的环境，来恢复定向注意力。

It's just too interesting. I'm too tired out. So that's a different kind of kind of attention, and and we think what's happening in modern times is that our directed attention is being fatigued. But maybe we can restore directed attention by going into environments that can softly capture our involuntary attention.

我们知道注意力疲劳的基础吗？我的意思是，可以想象它跟去甲肾上腺素、多巴胺、儿茶酚胺那些东西有关。本播客的听众至少对这些术语略有耳闻。我也可以想象，它其实是视觉系统或听觉系统的真正疲劳。你知道，保持注视——用视觉神经科学的术语叫“维持对目标的 fixation”——是很困难的。

Do we know the basis of attentional fatigue? I mean, could imagine it's something in the noradrenergic dopamine catecholamine world. Listeners to this podcast will recognize those terms at least crudely. I could also imagine that it's literally a fatigue of the visual system and or the auditory system. You know, it's hard to maintain fixation, as we say, visual neuroscientists, to focus on a target is challenging.

如果我们让眼睛休息，再回头看目标并注视它，其实会更容易。那么，这种专注注意力——或者你所说的定向注意力——的疲劳，其基础到底是什么？

If we allow our eyes to rest, it actually gets easier to look back at it and fixate on a target. So what is the basis of the attentional fatigue for this focused attention, or what you call directed attention?

是的，这是个很棒的问题。我目前还没有很好的答案。也许安德鲁你有想法。对我来说，大脑有一点让我困惑：据我了解，无论人们在做什么，大脑代谢都占全身代谢的20%，只有在极端运动时大脑代谢才会稍微下降一点。

Yeah. It's a really great question. I'm not sure I have a great answer yet. Maybe you'd have some ideas, Andrew. You know, one thing that that sort of to me puzzles me a little bit about the brain is that from my understanding, it's kind of like brain metabolism is 20% of overall metabolism, no matter what people are doing, except for really extreme exercise where brain metabolism goes down a little bit.

但无论你是睡着还是在做高难度的微积分题，大脑仍然在用掉20%的能量。所以这就成了一个谜：为什么我们会进入这种心理疲劳状态？我觉得它一定有某种神经基础，但目前我还指不出来。

But if you're asleep or if you're doing a hard calculus problem, I think the brain is still using 20% of metabolism. So it's sort of this puzzle. Why do we get this mental fatigue state? I I'm it's gotta have some kind of neurological component. At this point, I can't point to it.

所以我更多是从心理层面来谈论它：我们有一种“再也集中不了”的感觉。如果要我谈脑区，我会说，这种定向注意的能力最有可能位于额叶皮层；而非自主注意力——有时我们称之为“自下而上”或“外源性”注意力，因为它由外部刺激激活——可能更多由顶叶皮层，甚至枕叶皮层或听觉皮层激活，具体取决于外部刺激是什么。

So I'm going to talk about it more at this psychological level. It's a sensation that we have that we can't focus anymore. If I was to talk about brain areas, I would say probably this ability to direct attention is most likely in frontal cortex. Whereas this involuntary tension, sometimes we call it more bottom up attention or exogenous attention where it's activated by external stimulation, I would say that's probably more activated by things in the parietal cortex or even occipital cortex or auditory cortex, depending on what that external stimulation is.

我不会把所有东西都压在视觉系统上，但我一直在听一本只有有声书的书，叫《Daily Rituals》，每章两分钟，讲的是作家、艺术家和创意人士的日常仪式。很有趣的是，在很多章节里都看到同一件事：几乎所有人都有一个仪式，先摄入某种刺激物，通常是咖啡因，有时是更猛的刺激剂，但主要是咖啡因，然后再想办法限制自己的视觉世界，让它变成隧道视野。实际上，有些画家——我忘了具体是哪一位——会在不顺的时候给眼镜贴上纸板做遮挡。我提这个不是为了建议，不过也算个建议吧，我以前读论文时就真的这么干过。

I'm not going to lean everything on the visual system, but I've been listening to this book that unfortunately is only available as an audiobook called Daily Rituals, which it's got two minute chapters and it describes the daily rituals of writers and artists and creatives. And it's very interesting that across many of those chapters, find the same thing, which is that almost all of these people had a ritual of taking some stimulant, typically caffeine, sometimes more aggressive stimulants, but caffeine, and then something to restrict their visual world, make it more tunnel vision. In fact, there are certain painters, I forget the particular painter that they described, who literally built cardboard blinders onto his glasses when things weren't going so well. Now, the reason I bring this up is not as a suggestion, although I suppose it could. I actually used to read papers.

也许我该回到这种做法。戴上棒球帽，套上卫衣，把视觉世界缩窄。如果非自愿注意力真的来自周边且取之不尽，那就完全说得通。——对。所以，我觉得有趣的是，我们现在所处的数字界面把整个世界的信息都直接摆到眼前——

Maybe I need to go back to this side. Put a baseball cap on, put a hoodie on, you restrict your visual world. It makes perfect sense if, in fact, involuntary attention, which presumably comes from the periphery, -is inexhaustible. -Right. So, you know, I think what's interesting about the digital interface that we exist in now is that the whole world is brought right

——对，拉到——

in -Yes. Front of

对。——所以我们大概是在进化中习惯于在空间里移动，把注意指向特定位置，让其余世界自然淡出。

Yes. -So presumably, we evolved to move through space and direct our attention to particular locations and let the rest of the world fall away.

——对。

-Yes.

——于是非自愿注意力可以抓住我们——对——来提醒我们有人靠近、有危险，或者闻到飘来的饭菜香喊我们吃饭。可现在，所有信息都被塞进中央视野。——对。——所以我们会很难在那条小隧道里维持定向注意力，也就说得通了。——对。

-And then involuntary attention could grab us -Yes. To -Alert us to people showing up or danger or the smell of something wafting by, calling us for dinner. But now, it's all placed right in our central visual field. -Yes. -So, it makes sense that we would all be very challenged with maintaining directed attention -within that small -Yes.

隧道

Tunnel

对。我还要补充一点：如果你觉得必须造一个“隔离舱”才能集中定向注意力，那大概就是信号告诉你该休息了。这时候我们建议你去大自然里走走，给这种宝贵的定向注意力资源充电。所以，如果你实在难以专注，可以硬撑，但可能效率并不高。

Yes. And I would say something else too, guess, if you felt like you had to create an isolation kind of chamber sort of thing to focus your directed attention, that's where we would say, it's probably time to take a break. That that's when, you know, we might recommend that you go for a walk in nature to recharge this kind of precious directed attention resource. So that might be a signal. If if you're just having a really hard time focusing, yeah, you can try to power through, but I think that might not be the most productive.

那可能就是在提醒你：嘿，得去歇会儿。而且这休息最好别是刷社交媒体。我们说的真正好的休息是去大自然散步，或跟自然互动。

That might be a signal to you to say, hey, maybe I gotta go take a break. And the break better not be scrolling on social media. We're saying a really good break is actually a walk in nature or some kind of interaction with nature.

我想先暂停一下，感谢我们的赞助商 Helix Sleep。Helix Sleep 根据你独特的睡眠需求定制床垫和枕头。我在本节目和其他播客里多次说过，优质睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和高水平表现的根基。而每晚睡得好不好，床垫影响很大——软硬程度、支撑感都得按你个人的睡眠习惯来匹配。上 Helix 官网做一个两分钟的小测验，它会问你习惯仰睡、侧睡还是趴睡等问题。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. Now the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night, how soft it is or how firm it is, all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two minute quiz and it will ask you questions such as do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?

你晚上睡觉时容易发热还是发冷？诸如此类的问题。也许你知道这些问题的答案，也许不知道。无论如何，Helix 会为你匹配理想的床垫。对我来说，那就是 DUSK 床垫。

Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night? Things of that sort. Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't. Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the DUSK mattress.

大约三年半前我开始睡 DUSK 床垫，那是我迄今为止睡得最香的一次。如果你想试试 Helix Sleep，可以去 helixsleep.com/huberman，花两分钟做个睡眠小测验，Helix 会为你量身定制一款床垫。现在 Helix 所有床垫订单最高可享 27% 折扣。再说一遍，helixsleep.com/huberman，最高省 27%。今天的节目同样由 BetterHelp 赞助。

I started sleeping on a DUSK mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had. If you'd like to try Helix Sleep, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized to you. Right now, Helix is giving up to 27% off all mattress orders. Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 27% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.

BetterHelp 提供完全在线的执业治疗师专业治疗。我每周都做心理治疗，已经坚持了三十多年。最初并不是自愿的，那是学校允许我继续就读的条件。但很快我就意识到，治疗对整体健康极其重要。

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I've been doing weekly therapy for over thirty years. Initially, didn't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school. But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health.

事实上，我把每周定期治疗看得和每周规律锻炼一样重要，当然我每周也会锻炼。优质治疗主要提供三样东西：第一，与你建立可信赖的融洽关系，可以无话不谈；第二，提供情感支持或有针对性的指导；第三，专业治疗能带来有用的洞察。

In fact, I consider doing regular weekly therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which of course I also do every week. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, great therapy provides a great rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about any and all issues with. Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance. And third expert therapy can provide useful insights.

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我想谈谈与自然的互动。我并不是要反驳你刚才说的，只是想再深入探讨一下。我觉得很多人在开始专注时会遇到困难。我自己也深有体会，坐下来工作前要热身一段时间，那种焦躁感。我总把它想象成翻越或穿过带刺的铁丝网。

I wanna talk about interaction with nature. I just want to it's not a pushback on what you just said, but maybe just a probe a little bit deeper. I think a lot of people struggle with getting into a focused state at the outset. And I myself am familiar with the sitting down to do some work and it taking some time to kind of warm up, and that agitation. Always think about it as literally climbing over or through barbed wire.

有时真的就像那样，对吧？——是的。——铁丝网两边都是陡坡。一边是来自上网或社交媒体的干扰，另一边则是各种戏剧化的事情。——是的。

Sometimes it actually feels like that, right? -Yes. -And then at either side of the barbed wire is a steep slope. On one side is distraction that can come from surfing the web or social media, and then on the other side is any sort of drama. -Yes.

——然后，我们的大脑就开始冒出各种自以为必须去做的事，目标就是穿过这道铁丝网，另一边才是专注状态。对大多数人来说，我想我刚才描述的并不离谱。我在做很多假设，但我没见过谁能一坐下工作

-And Then, of course, our mind starts creating all these things that we think we need to do, and the idea is to get through the barbed wire, and then on the other side of it is that focused state. For most people, I think what I described is not terribly different from that. I I I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but I don't know many people that can just sit down to work

就

that just

像——像一条战壕一样立刻沉浸进去。你说得对。你能做到吗？

and just drop in like a like a Yes. You know, like a trench. That's right. Can you do that?

不会。但在大自然中散步后，我能做得更好。所以我觉得散步几乎像是一种准备过程。就像你知道的，好比举重之类的。你不会一开始锻炼就说，哦，咱们直接上250磅卧推吧。

No. But I can do it better after a walk in nature. So I think almost like the walk in nature is sort of like a preparatory kind of process. Just like, know, think about, like, lifting weights or something like that. You wouldn't start off a workout and say, oh, let's put two fifty on the bench and start going.

你得热身。得先唤醒神经系统。我觉得跟大自然互动就有点类似这种唤醒。这并不是被动过程。我们不是让你去黑屋子里坐三十分钟再开始工作。

You warm up. You gotta wake up your your nervous system a little bit. And I think that's kind of a little bit what we think interacting with nature is kind of doing. I mean, it's not a passive process. We're not saying go and sit in a dark room for thirty minutes and then start to go to work.

不，我们希望你与大自然互动。我们希望你注意到自然。我们希望你的非自主注意力被自然的刺激自动吸引。等你充好电后，我们认为你就能回到桌前，重新调动注意力并专注。

No. We're saying we want you to be interacting with nature. We want you to notice nature. We want your involuntary attention to be automatically captured by the stimulation nature. And then after you've kind of been sufficiently recharged, then we think you're going to be able to go back to your desk and be able to direct attention and be able to focus.

那我们来聊聊

So let's talk about some of

关于在自然中散步以及与自然其他成分互动，对我们的认知和专注水平有什么数据支持。我觉得大家凭直觉就能体会，好吧，不刷手机地散个步很舒服、很放松，回到桌前就能真正专注。实验室或户外数据怎么支持这一点？你能挑几个你做过的精彩研究讲讲吗？它们真的很棒，还率先把真正的实验室技术搬到了大自然里。

the data around what walks in nature and interactions with other components of nature can do for our cognition and our level of focus. I think intuitively people will appreciate, okay, a nice walk in nature, not looking at one's phone, it's very pleasant, it's relaxing, and then you get back to your desk, and you can really focus. What about the laboratory data that support this, or out of laboratory data that support this? Yeah. Maybe you could describe a few of the incredible studies that you've done, because they are really incredible, and they're very pioneering in the way that you've brought real laboratory technology into nature as well.

所以挑一个你最喜欢的相关研究，然后我再问几个别的——好的。

So pick your favorite study about this, and then I'll ask you about a few others Sure. As

我觉得我们那个开创性实验是在2008年2月做的。当时人们做这种自然散步研究，只会问：散步后感觉如何？非常主观，我并不反对主观报告，大家都说：嗯，散完步感觉神清气爽。但我总觉得不够，我想看客观表现有没有变化。

Well, I think the the kind of the seminal experiment that we did was back in 02/2008. And at that time, when people did these sort of nature walk studies, they would ask people, how do you feel after the walk? And it was very subjective and I I'm not against subjective accounts and people reported, yeah, I feel much more refreshed after the walk in nature. But I always felt a little bit dissatisfied by that. Wanted to see, does objective performance change?

就像如果我给你一颗药丸说它能让你变强壮、能举更重，我们大概不会满足于人们说“我觉得我能举更重”。我们想实际看到：他们真的举得更重了吗？于是我们设计了一个实验控制的研究，用客观指标。

Just like we would probably be dissatisfied if I gave you a pill and I said, this pill is gonna get you stronger, you're gonna be able to lift more weight. And if we just had people say, Yeah, I feel like I can lift more weight. I don't think that'd be satisfying. We'd actually want to see, can people actually lift more weight? And so what we did is we designed a study that was experimentally controlled, that would have objective measures.

看人们在自然散步前后的认知表现如何。我们把人带进实验室，给他们一些挑战工作记忆和注意力的任务。其中一个叫“倒背数字广度”：每秒听一个数字，然后倒序复述。比如我说五、六、七，受试者得说七、六、五。三位数很简单，但我们会一直加到九位。

How did people perform cognitively before and after going on a walk in nature? So what we did is we brought people into the laboratory, and then we gave them some challenging working memory and attention tasks. So one of the task task was called the backwards digit span task, where you would hear digits out loud at a pace of about one digit per second, and then the participant would need to repeat them back in backwards order. So if I said five, six, seven, the participant would have to repeat back seven, six, five. Pretty easy task at three digits, but we keep increasing the number of digits all the way till about nine digits.

到五位时你就想抓狂了，很有挑战性。我们让受试者做倒背数字，然后给他们一张路线图。最早的研究是在密歇根大学心理系旁边的安娜堡植物园走自然路线，或者沿市中心繁忙的Washtenaw街走。两条路线都约2.6英里，大概要走五十分钟。

At about five digits, you're ready to pull your hair out is a challenging task. So we gave participants this backwards digit span task. And then we gave them a map of a walk. It could be the first studies were through the Ann Arbor Arboretum, which was a nature walk, kind of by the Psychology Building at the University of Michigan, or participants went for a walk on busy Washtenaw Street in downtown Ann Arbor. The walks were both about 2.6 miles, so it took people about fifty minutes to do the walk.

我们还收走了参与者的手机，因为我们不希望他们在走路时发短信或闲聊，我们希望他们的注意力完全集中在环境上。我们还做了另一件事：我们给了他们一块GPS手表。为什么给GPS手表？有两个原因：第一，我们想确保他们真的去走了那条步道。

We also took participants' cell phones, because we didn't want them texting or chitchatting on the walk, we wanted their attention to be fully focused on the environment. And we also did one other thing, we also gave them a GPS watch. Why did we give them a GPS watch? Well, we did it for two reasons. One, we wanted to make sure they went on the walk.

而不是只去了星巴克。第二，我们想看人们会不会迷路，因为如果他们在走路时迷路了，也许就无法获得恢复效果。好，人们先做了倒背数字任务。然后我们让他们去自然环境中散步，或者让他们在城市环境里散步。他们走五十分钟后回到实验室，我们再次给他们同样的倒背数字任务，看看表现有没有变化；测完以后，我们让他们一周后再来，把整个流程重复一遍。

They didn't just go to Starbucks. And two, we wanted to see the people get lost because if people got lost on the walk, maybe that wouldn't be restorative. Okay, so people do the backwards digit span task. We send them on a walk in nature or we send them on a walk through an urban environment. They go on this fifty minute walk, they come back to the lab, we give them that same backwards digit span task again, to see if there's any performance change or not, measure that, then we have people repeat the whole procedure again, they come back to lab a week later.

如果第一周走的是自然路线，第二周就走城市路线，反之亦然。所以这是被试内设计，实验控制非常严格。我们发现的结果相当惊人：在自然环境散步后，人们的工作记忆容量和定向注意力能力比在城市环境散步后提高了大约20%。有人可能会想，也许是因为自然散步更愉快，大家更喜欢。确实，人们普遍更喜欢自然散步。

So if they walked in nature the first week, they walked in the urban environment the second week or vice versa. So it's all within subject very tight experimental control. And what we found was pretty incredible that people's working memory capacity and their ability to direct attention improved by about 20% after the walk in nature versus the walk in the urban environment. And people might be thinking, well, maybe it's just because the nature walk was just more pleasant. They just liked the nature walk more and people did tend to like the nature walk more.

我们也测量了散步时情绪改善了多少，但发现情绪提升与工作记忆、注意力提升之间并没有很强的相关，说明人们不是因为心情变好才表现更好。更强的证据是，我们让人们在不同季节散步。有的在六月，气温约80华氏度，人们说：‘Mark，真不敢相信你居然付钱让我在大自然里散步。’

And we did measure improvements in mood, how much did mood improve on the walk. We didn't find very strong correlation between improvements in mood and improvements in the working memory and directed attention performance suggesting that people weren't just getting better because they're getting into good moods. But the even stronger demonstration that this wasn't mood driven is that we had people walk at different times of the year. So some of our participants walked in June when it was like 80 degrees Fahrenheit. People said, Mark, I can't believe you're paying me to go for a walk in nature.

情绪、工作记忆和注意力都显著提升。也有参与者在一月散步，只有25华氏度，他们说：‘Mark，我差点冻掉屁股，我一点也不享受。’但令人惊讶的是，那些在一月挨冻、并不享受散步的人，获得的工作记忆和注意力提升与六月散步的人完全一样。

Really healthy mood benefits, really healthy working memory and attention benefits. We also had participants walk in January, 25 degrees Fahrenheit. People said, Mark, I was freezing my butt off out there. I did not enjoy that walk. But incredibly, the people that walked in January when it was freezing cold, and they didn't enjoy the walk, obtained the same working memory and attention benefits as the people that walked in June.

所以，你甚至不必喜欢这段自然互动，也能获得定向注意力的恢复。我觉得这非常有趣且反直觉：这不仅仅是喜欢或愉快的问题。大自然在听觉、视觉甚至触觉上的某种深层刺激，似乎对我们的大脑有益，能恢复我们定向注意的能力。

So you didn't even have to like the nature interaction to get this directed attention benefit. So that I thought was pretty interesting and counterintuitive that this isn't just about liking or pleasantness. There's something deep about processing auditory, visual, maybe even tactile stimulation of nature that somehow is good for our brains and restores our ability to direct attention.

这些发现太有趣了。让我回到定向注意力这种有限资源，不管背后的网络和化学物质是什么。我们能不能推测一下，在自然散步过程中，到底是什么在增强或允许定向注意力恢复？我体内的神经生物学家想问：我在大自然里走路，那大概意味着有绿植、泥土，也许还有水。

Super interesting findings. And it leads me back to this finite resource of directed attention, whatever the underlying networks and chemicals happen to be. Could we speculate what might be occurring in the nature walks that is enhancing or allowing restoration of directed attention? And I guess the neurobiologist in me wants to say, Okay, I'm walking in nature. That probably means some greenery, some dirt, maybe some water.

我能想到的一个假设是，自然环境的那种不规则性。对吧？树木的间距并不完美，不像斯坦福Palm Drive那样整齐——那整齐到简直像在跟工程系打招呼，间隔完全一致。对吧？

And I could imagine one hypothesis that it's the kind of irregularity of nature environments. Right? I mean, maybe trees are spaced out, know, in perfect spacing, like on Palm Drive at Stanford. It's like a it looks like a it it speaks to the engineering department that they're it's set at such even intervals. Right?

但通常在森林或自然里，会有东西打破那种规律性。而室内和城市环境则充满直角，楼可以高矮不一，但给定街区的街块大小基本固定。所以这只是我临时想出的一个假设。我们有没有数据，或者你有没有更偏好的推测，关于自然在物理结构上到底有什么特别？

But typically, when you're in the forest or nature, there's also things to break up that regularity. Yep. Whereas indoor environments and city environments tend to have a lot of right angles, buildings can be different sizes, but city blocks are pretty fixed for a given neighborhood in terms of their size. So that's just one hypothesis. I'm Do coming up with this off the top of my we have any data, or do you have any preferential speculation as to what it is about nature in terms of its physical structure.

顺带一问，是因为自然让人放松，于是不必动用定向注意力，于是定向注意力得以恢复，甚至回到更高水平？我知道这两个问题缠在一起，但我就是好奇。

And as a corollary to that, is it that nature is relaxing people, and therefore they're not having to use their directed attention, and therefore directed attention capability comes back, or is set at a higher level? I realize this is two questions kind of braided together, but that's what I'm curious about.

是的，我觉得两个要素都已经摆在这儿了。也许我先从“有意识的定向注意力”这个休息环节讲起。我们假装自己在自然中散步，或者在城市场景里散步，我先说城市场景。城市场景的散步需要人们不断穿越马路。

Yeah. And I think both elements are placed. So maybe I'll start first with kind of the resting directed attention element. So let's pretend we're on these walks in nature or the walk on the urban environment and I'll start with the walk on the urban environment. The walk in the urban environment required people to cross a lot of streets.

所以你得保持警觉，仍然要用到定向注意力。还有大量车流，你会听到汽车以大概四十、四十五英里的时速呼啸而过的噪音。还有广告，你会经过商店和广告牌，这些都会占用一定的定向注意力。

So you had to be vigilant. So you still had to use directed attention. Also had a lot of car traffic. So you're hearing the noise of cars whizzing by at probably, you know, forty, forty five miles per hour. There's also advertising, you're going by shops and billboards that that kind of require some directed attention.

因此在这种环境里你没法真正走神，让思绪随意飘。你依旧得保持警觉，依旧得动用定向注意力。而在安娜堡植物园的散步就没有那么多干扰。我觉得只需穿过一两条街，就进入植物园了，之后不用再过马路，那里也没有广告。

So you can't really just mind wander and and let your mind kind of go in those environments. You still have to be vigilant, you still have to use directed attention. The walk through the Ann Arbor Arboretum, you didn't have a lot of those distractions. So I think you only had to cross one or two streets, and then you're kind of getting towards the Arboretum, you don't have to cross any more streets. There's no advertising there.

接着，我想谈另一个概念——“柔和吸引”。自然中丰富的色彩、分形结构、曲线边缘，会以我们认为“柔和吸引”的方式抓住我们的非自主注意力。再加上对定向注意力的需求很低，我们认为这就是自然能够恢复定向注意力的原因。那什么是“柔和吸引”的刺激呢？假设我们在看一道瀑布，瀑布非常美。

And then, and this is the thing I want to talk about too, this idea of soft fascination. There's all the colors, fractalness, curved edges of nature that we think sort of captures our involuntary attention in what we say is softly fascinating ways. And we think that in combination with not placing a lot of demand on directed attention is why nature is able to restore directed attention. So what do I mean by softly fastening stimulation? So let's pretend we're looking at a waterfall, and the waterfall is really beautiful.

你能听到水流倾泻的声音，能看到气泡和泡沫。它吸引了我们的注意，但我们仍能同时走神、想别的事，所以它并没有粗暴地占据全部注意力资源。如果在时代广场，同样非常有趣，刺激很多，但它会以耗尽全部注意力资源的方式吸引我们，让人无法反思或走神。因此，虽然时代广场也抓住了非自主注意，我们称之为“强烈吸引”。

You can hear the rush of the water going down, you can see all the like the bubbles and maybe some of the froth of the water going down. It captures our attention, but we can still kind of mind wander and think about other things at the same time. So it doesn't really harshly capture all of our attentional resources. If we're in Times Square, also super interesting, lots of interesting stimulation to look at, but it kind of captures all of our attentional resources in an all consuming way that doesn't allow for any reflection or mind wandering or anything like that. So, while Times Square does capture our involuntary attention, we say it does so in a very harshly fascinating way.

而瀑布则以“柔和吸引”的方式抓住非自主注意。我们认为这种方式最终能让定向注意力得到休息。因此，我们认为自然散步之所以有效，有两个关键：第一，它对定向注意力的需求更少；第二，它提供了柔和吸引的刺激，激活了非自主注意，却不是以耗尽的方式。这两点至关重要。

Whereas the waterfall captures our involuntary attention in a softly fascinating way. And we think that's the way that's going to be restful eventually of directed attention. So we think two elements created why the nature walk was a story of one, it didn't place as many demands on directed attention. And two, it had this softly fascinating stimulation that activated this involuntary attention, but not in an all consuming way. So we think those two things are critical.

你提到的另一个问题：是什么让柔和吸引得以产生？或者说，为什么有些东西能以柔和吸引的方式抓住非自主注意？这就很有趣了，我们认为可能与自然本身的结构有关。有趣的是，安德鲁，我们能看到自然提升认知表现的效果：只看自然图片而非城市图片、听自然声音而非城市声音、看自然视频而非城市视频，都能产生效果。在这些情况下，你不用担心被车撞。

The other point that you bring up about, okay, well, what causes soft fascination to be captured? Or why does something capture involuntary attention in a softly fascinating way? And that gets really interesting, where we think it could be elements of the structure of nature. So it's interesting, Andrew, that we can get these effects of nature improving cognitive performance, people just looking at pictures of nature, versus looking at pictures of urban scenes, listening to nature sounds versus listening to urban sounds, watching nature videos versus watching urban videos. So there you don't have to worry about getting hit by a car.

自然的视觉美学本身就能带来某些益处，我们的大脑处理分形刺激的方式，可能比处理那些90度直角的人造环境更高效、更省力。

There's something about the visual aesthetic of nature that we think is producing some of those benefits that somehow our brain maybe processes that fractal stimulation in more efficient or easier ways than kind of what you were talking about, the 90 degree angled built environment that we've constructed.

我得问问，如果在实验室里给人们看自然图片对比城市场景图片，也能看到一些相同效果，那你们是把图片呈现在典型的小屏幕上，还是全景呈现？我这么问是有原因的，我对自然如何不耗尽定向注意力有个个人假设。但在那之前，我只是好奇实验设置是怎样的。是的，我还担心人们会听到“太好了”。

I have to ask if you are exposing people to nature images versus urban environment images in the laboratory and seeing some of these same effects, Are you presenting that on a typical, you know, small screen right in front of somebody or is it in panorama? I'm headed in a particular direction with because this I have a pet hypothesis as to what nature could be doing to not deplete directed attention. But before I ask you about that, I'm just curious what the experimental setup is. Yeah. I'm also asking because I'm a little concerned that people are going to hear, Oh, great.

“我只需要看一张森林照片就行，不用真的出门。”正如你所说，真正的自然环境里有丰富的声景等等。那实验格式到底是什么？

I can just look at a picture of a forest. I don't have to get outside. And as you mentioned, there are so many things in an actual nature environment that provide a rich experience of soundscape, etcetera. But what's the format?

是的，所以基本格式和我描述的步行研究一样。人们来到实验室，我们给他们做倒背数字任务，然后带他们进入实验室的一个房间，里面只有一块电脑屏幕在轮播自然场景或城市场景，他们看几秒钟画面。我们还让他们用1到3分给场景打分，看看有多喜欢，只是为了确保他们清醒并投入环境。整个过程大约十分钟。

Yeah. So it's basically the same format as the walk, the walking study that I described. So people come into the lab, we give them the backwards digit spend task, but then we take them into a room in the lab where they just have a computer screen that's flipping through nature scenes or urban scenes, they look at the scene for a couple seconds. We also have them rate the scene on a scale of one to three for how much they like it, just to make sure that they're awake and they're engaged with the environment. That whole procedure takes about ten minutes.

他们走出那个看图片的实验室房间，然后再次做倒背数字任务，看看表现有没有变化。接着我们让他们一周后再来实验室，把整个流程重复一遍。如果第一周看的是自然图片，第二周就看城市图片，反之亦然。即便只是看自然图片，我们也能看到工作记忆和定向注意力的提升。不过我要提醒，效果没有真正步行那么明显。

They come out of the laboratory room that had the pictures and then they take the backwards DigiSpend task again, to see if there are changes in performance. And then we'd have them come back to the lab a week later, repeat the whole procedure again. If they saw the nature pictures the first week, they see the urban pictures the second week or vice versa. And they're even just seeing the pictures of nature, we see improvements in working memory and directed attention. However, I would caution that the effects are not as large as they are for the actual walk.

所以可以说，这种干预没有真正在自然中步行那么强，对吧？仅仅看十分钟自然图片，居然有效、能获得一些好处，这已经令人惊讶，但好处没有真实体验那么强。当我们测试自然声音与城市声音时，流程也一样：先用倒背数字任务测一遍，然后给他们戴上耳机，播放一系列自然声音或城市声音，再做一次倒背数字任务。我们发现，当人们听自然声音时，工作记忆表现和定向注意力也有提升。

So it's harder, or I would say, I guess the intervention is not as strong as actually walking in nature, right? Just seeing ten minutes of nature pictures, it's incredible that it works, you can get some of these benefits, but the benefits are not as strong as they are for the real thing. And the same procedure happens when we test sounds of nature versus urban sounds. We test people with the backwards Digisband task, then we put headphones on them, play a series of nature sounds, or play a series of urban sounds, then they do the backwards Digispan task again. And we find that when people listen to nature sounds, they also show improvements on on working memory performance and directed attention.

我们没有做什么特别的全景视角，就是在电脑屏幕上看自然图片或城市图片的幻灯片。

We don't do anything special in terms of having it being a panoramic view. It's basically just looking at a slideshow of nature pictures or urban pictures on a computer screen.

听你这么说我开始想，我们是否有专门负责自然的脑区或回路，乍一听这想法有点疯狂，因为视觉和听觉是从基本单元构建起来的——说人话就是，眼睛和低级视觉系统在乎圆形和角度，然后高级皮层把它们拼成对人或建筑的识别，等等，都是从基本单元垒起来的。在声音领域，也是由不同频率拼成的。但这个问题让我想到一件事：如果我周末走在城市街区，全是仓库、铁丝网、一些招牌，周日都关门，没有卡车进出，也没啥动静。

So I'm hearing this, I'm starting to wonder whether we have brain areas and or circuits that are devoted to nature, which, you know, first pass seems like kind of a crazy idea because visual perceptions and auditory perceptions are built up from their sort of elementary units, which is just nerd speak for, you know, your eye and low level visual system cares about circles and angles, and then your higher level cortex puts it into the recognition of a person or a building, etcetera, is literally built up from elementary units. You know, in the sound domain, it's built up from different frequencies, But, you know, there's something about this problem. Here's what's on my mind here. If I walk through a neighborhood, an urban neighborhood, where it's a bunch of warehouses with some cyclone fence, and some signs, and it's a weekend, maybe it's a Sunday, and they're all closed. There aren't trucks coming in and out, and not a whole lot's happening.

-对。-这让我想到，就像船厂区旁边的西奥克兰周日那样。-对。-对吧？不是我推荐去的地方，除非你真喜欢周日那种单调的城市环境。

-Yep. -This reminds me of, like, West Oakland near the Shipyard on a Sunday. -Yep. -Right? Not a place I recommend people go, unless you really like kind of bland urban environments on a Sunday.

是啊，因为周日船厂关门，啥事没有。相比之下，约塞米蒂的一条小径。我夏天曾在约塞米蒂打工，但说的不是最壮观的那几条步道。

Yeah. Because not much is happening to Shipyard. Sunday, it's closed. Versus a trail in Yosemite. I used to work up in Yosemite in the summers, but it's not one of the most magnificent trails.

也就是说，不是约塞米蒂瀑布、半圆顶或我最喜欢的云歇峰，而是个有点荒凉的地方，可能有一片草地和一座山。你绝不会说：我现在走的图奥勒米这条小径真无聊。-对。-它不如云歇峰顶有趣。

Meaning, it's not Yosemite Falls, Half Dome, or Clouds Rest, my favorite trail. It's a kind of barren environment, but there might be a meadow and there might be a mountain. You would never say, You know, this trail up in Tuolumne that I'm on right now is, it's kind of boring. -Yep. -It's not as interesting as the peak of Clouds Rest.

确实， arguably 它不是。-对。-等你真的登上云歇峰顶，会感叹“哇哦”。-对。-就像一种心灵体验。

And arguably, it's not. -Right. Mean, when you get to the top of Clouds Rest, it's like, Woah. -Yep. -Like, I mean, it's a spiritual experience.

-对。-可当我们在自然里，通常不会觉得“哦，这好无聊，啥也没有”。对。

-Yep. -Okay. But when we are in nature, we don't tend to think, oh, this is boring. There's nothing here. Yep.

即使视觉上相当稀疏。对。所以当我们剖析这一点时，不能只看视觉元素的密度。不。——一定还有别的什么。

Even if it's fairly sparse visually. Right. So as we dissect this, it can't just be density of visual stuff. No. -There must be something additional.

甚至我们可以说，也许是绿色植物。但你知道，不久前我在犹他沙漠，不是拱门或那些美丽的、确实存在的风景。——对。——而只是地平线天空。对。

Even And we could say, well, maybe it's the greenery. But, you know, I was out in the Utah Desert not that long ago, it wasn't arches or, you know, the beautiful, you know, landscapes that definitely exist out there. -Yep. -And it was just kinda like horizon skies. Yep.

一些沙子。对。也许一两棵仙人掌，一些但它很美。对，没错。你绝不会说，哦，这很无聊，因为没有拱门。

Some sand. Yep. Maybe a cactus or two, some But it's beautiful. Yeah, right. And you would never say, Oh, this is boring because it doesn't have arches.

对。当你看到拱门时，你会说，那就更棒了。

Right. When you get to arches, you're like, It's that much better.

对。

Right.

你明白我的意思了。对。所以不可能是视觉对象的密度。对。而且沙漠里非常安静。

You get the point here. Yeah. So it can't be density of visual objects. Right. And it's pretty quiet out there in the desert.

对。除了夜晚，如果你幸运的话，沙漠其实相当热闹，有动物之类的。那到底是怎么回事？

Right. Except at night when it's really quite noisy in the desert, actually, with animals and stuff, if you're lucky. So what's the deal?

某种程度上可能与进化有关。我的意思是，我们的大脑是在自然中进化的。对吧？所以有没有可能我们的神经机制就是更适应那种刺激？我的意思是，自然界里没有天然的直角。

Part of it could be evolution to some extent. I mean, our brains evolved in nature. Right? So is it possible that our neural machinery is just more tuned to that kind of stimulation? I mean, there's no natural right angles in nature.

直角是我们创造的。我的意思是，这很推测性，对吧？我想再深入一点，但我无法忽视它。也许我们大脑进化的方式有某种根本性的东西。我们在自然中进化，也许我们处理自然刺激更流畅，也许我们喜欢那样。

We created right angles. I mean, that's pretty speculative, right? And I'd want to dig in a little more about that but I I can't ignore it. That there's just something maybe fundamental with how our brains evolved. And we evolved in nature that there's just something maybe about we just maybe more fluently process natural stimulation, and maybe we like that.

但我们开始有了一些想法，比如软吸引，我很喜欢这个概念，但它还是有点模糊。我想给它一些定量参数。所以我们想到的一个想法是，也许自然场景其实比城市场景更可压缩。我这是什么意思？我的意思是，也许因为自然中有重复的模式，我不需要存储所有信息。

But we started to have some ideas, you know, soft fascination, I I love it as a concept, but it's still a little bit squishy. I kinda wanted to get some kind of quantitative parameters around it. So one idea that we were thinking about was that maybe nature scenes are actually more compressible than urban scenes. Now what do I mean by that? So what I mean by that is that maybe they just there's because there's repeated patterns in nature, I don't need to store all of the information.

我可以把它压缩成更少的比特。这样我的大脑处理起来可能更容易。而在很多城市场景中，它并不具备分形特征，也许我得把所有信息都存下来。所以我们实际上——这是我的一个学生，Nakwan——我们真的对成千上万张自然和城市场景图片运行了JPEG压缩算法，结果发现自然场景能被压缩成更少的比特。

I can kinda smush it down into fewer bits. And that might be easier for my brain to process. Whereas in a lot of urban scenes, it's not very fractal, and maybe I have to store all of that information. So we actually this is one of my students, Nakwan. We actually did we ran a JPEG compression algorithm on thousands of nature and urban scenes, and it turns out nature scenes get compressed down into fewer bits.

所以我们应该，不是双关，稍微展开一下

So we should, no pun intended, unpack a little bit

你刚才说的内容，因为我觉得对不熟悉神经处理的人来说，是的，以及JPEG与TIFF

of what you just said, because I think for people that are not familiar with thinking about neural processing Yes. And JPEGs versus TIFF

文件，是的。

files Yes.

如果我可以，我就简单说一下，是的，我的粗浅理解，因为多年前我对此很感兴趣，也做过相关研究。长话短说，大家大概知道有些电子文件比别的大。如果你用相机或手机拍了张照片，想发给别人，如今你会直接发彩信，但你可能想发邮件。你可以发TIFF版或Photoshop版，那会是非常大的图像，或者很大的视频，对吧。

If if I may, I'm just gonna give my Yes. Crude rendition of this, because I I was very in this, and did some work related to this years ago. But just to keep it brief, people are probably familiar with the idea that some electronic files are larger than others. So if you have a picture that you take on a camera or your phone, and you wanna email it to somebody nowadays, you would just text it, but you might wanna email it to somebody. You can send them the TIFF version or the Photoshop version, and it's going to be a very big image, or a big movie, for Right.

那还有另一种发送方式，就是分辨率低一点的文件。

That There's another way to send it, which is at a lower file resolution.

对。

Right.

因此它占用的内存更少。不会变成一个你得去第三方网站下载的超大文件，这就是JPEG。

But therefore, it takes up less memory. Doesn't come through as this massive file that you need to go to a second party site to download or something, and that's a JPEG.

对。

Right.

JPEG的根本就是把相邻像素的平均值算出来并压缩。大致猜一下，一个黑色像素旁边大概率还是黑色，或者可能是灰色，但不太可能是白色，虽然也有可能。

The whole basis of JPEG is to take the average of pixels near one another and compress them. Kind of take a best guess as to what a black pixel is probably next to another black pixel, or probably a gray pixel, but probably not a white pixel. It could.

对。

Right.

—但它的做法是，先做一个局部平均。—是的。—然后把它压缩成JPEG，再发送到另一边。—嗯。—可在另一边，你也可以把这幅图像解包回原本的高分辨率值。

-But what it does, it takes a local averaging. -Yes. -And then it compresses it into a JPEG, and you send it to the other side. -Yep. -But on the other side, you can also unpack that image to its original high resolution value.

大脑也做类似的事，我手边最好的例子就是嗅觉系统。在嗅觉系统里，你吸入大量挥发性化学物质——“挥发”听起来好像它们随时要发脾气，其实是指它们能在空气中移动——你吸入它们，激活了大概上百万种不同的气味受体。但你的大脑把这些压缩成“咖啡”。这就是咖啡。然后你再把它解包成咖啡。

The brain does a similar thing, and the best example that I have from the brain is the olfactory system. Where in the olfactory system, you're breathing in tons of volatile chemicals, meaning, volatile makes it sound like they're about to throw a tantrum, but they're moving through the air, you inhale them, and they're activating millions, probably, of different odorant receptors. But your brain compresses those down into coffee. This is coffee. And then you unpack it as coffee.

如果你是个咖啡行家，或者对葡萄酒、美食有研究，你就能分辨微妙差异，说：哦，这里多一点这个，那里多一点那个。但你不会去想单个化学分子。你会说：哦，有点樱桃味，或者这块巧克力带点柑橘味。就是这种层次。大脑对视觉图像也做同样的事。

Now, if you're a coffee connoisseur, or in the case of wine or a food connoisseur, you can get into the subtle nuance and say, Oh, you know, there's a little bit more of this and a little bit more of that. But you're not thinking about the individual chemical molecules. You'd say, Oh, it's little bit of a cherry flavor, or This chocolate has a little bit of a citrus. This is the sorts of thing. So that's essentially what the brain does with visual images as well.

是的。

Yes.

好。以上就是我对信息片段如何被压缩进大脑、再解包成你所谓的“知觉”的非常粗略且肯定不完整的描述。

Okay. So that's my very crude and certainly not complete description of how bits of information are compressed as they go into the brain, and then unpacked into what you call a perception.

没错。

That's right.

或者说“体验”。TIFF或Photoshop文件被压缩成JPEG也一样，然后你真的可以把那文件解压缩。是的，只要你有那种计算能力。

Or an experience. And the same thing is true of a TIFF or Photoshop file compressed to a JPEG, And then you can literally uncompress that file. Yes. If you have the cape the the sort of computational capability.

所以我想补充一点，我们刚才说的JPEG压缩是“有损”压缩，意思是信息被扔掉了，你没法再把它找回来。

So one thing I just wanna add to, the the kind of compression that we were doing with the JPEG compression was was lossy, meaning that the information was thrown away. You couldn't recover it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这其实并不重要。所以如果你把高分辨率的图像和压缩或低分辨率的图像拿给人们看，人眼根本看不出区别。我觉得——但在城市图像上，这招就行不通了。你得保留所有原始像素值。所以这大概就是电脑和我们的iPhone正在做的事。

But that didn't really matter. So if you showed people the image at its high resolution versus the image at its compressed or lower resolution, the human eye can't really tell the difference. And I think but for the urban images, you couldn't get away with that trick. You needed to keep all of the original pixel values. So that's kind of, that's what computers and our iPhones are actually doing.

它们之所以能这么做，是因为自然界有很多重复结构，就像你之前说的预测像素值那样，你可以利用这一点。你可以把这种冗余利用起来。也就是说，信息有很多冗余，你并不需要全部。自然图像往往也包含——这可能也有点技术了。

They're and the reason why we think they can get away with that is because nature has a lot of this repeated structure like you were talking about before about predicting the pixel's value and you can use that. You can capitalize that. That that means there's a lot of redundancy. So, you don't need all of that information. Natural images also tend to have maybe this is going get a little bit technical too.

大量高频空间内容。也就是很多我们其实并不需要的小变化、小对比度变化。而在城市环境里，有更多我们需要的大对比度变化。所以我们觉得，大脑可能就像你说的，在自然界里会丢掉很多信息，因为你在自然中行走时可以‘扔掉’大量信息。所以我们认为，这可能就是为什么自然景色更‘柔和地迷人’、更容易处理，而城市环境则相反。

A lot of high frequency spatial content. So, a lot of little changes, little contrast changes that we don't really need. Whereas in the urban environment, there's more of these big contrast changes that we do need. So we think maybe the brain is, like you're saying, there's all this evidence that the brain is basically doing that in nature because you can smack you know, you're walking through the nature, you can kinda throw away a lot of the information. And so we think that actually might be why it's sort of more softly fascinating and easier to process versus the urban environment.

这里还有另一个因素，我们还没完全搞明白，但我非常感兴趣。刚才说的是在极低层次上的图像复杂度。但你也可以从语义层面考虑，也就是我们用来描述场景的语言。当我看到自然景色时，我的词汇量并不大，我只会说湖、树、河、灌木、沙、沙漠。

There's another element here too, which we haven't got it completely yet, but which I'm very interested in. So that that's looking at sort of like complexity of the images at the very, very low level. But you could also think about semantics, like the language that we use to describe a scene. When I see a nature scene, you know, I don't have a huge language repertoire. I can say lake, tree, river, shrub, sand, desert.

但在城市环境里，我可以说大众甲壳虫、宝马M3、哥特式建筑，我的词汇对城市场景来说复杂得多。所以我们也在想，也许自然在语义上也更简单，从语言层面我可以轻松给它贴标签，于是大脑就不用存那么多信息。而在城市环境里，我可能被迫给所有这些物体打标签，占用了更多大脑空间。因此我们也做实验，给人们看一堆自然场景和城市场景，然后测试他们对这些场景的记忆。

But when I'm in the urban environment, I can say Volkswagen Beetle, you know, BMW M3, Gothic architecture, like my vocabulary is so much more complex for an urban scene. So one thing that we're also thinking about is like, maybe nature might also be more semantically simple, like from a linguistic level that I can just label it really easily. And then it allows my brain to just not have to store as much information. Whereas in the urban environment, maybe I'm forced to sort of label all of these objects and it just takes up more room in our brain. So we also do these studies where we show people a bunch of nature scenes and urban scenes, and then test their memory for the scenes.

结果发现，人们对自然场景的记忆比城市场景差。人们记住的是——

And it turns out that people's memory for the nature scenes is worse than the urban scene. So people remember

完美。

Perfect.

没错，完全吻合。你可能觉得，啊，人总希望记住东西。但其实，从某种角度看，这正是在衡量处理的难度。

Exactly. It fits. It fits. And you might think, oh, well, you wanna remember stuff. But actually, you know, in some sense, it's it's measuring how just difficult it is to process.

如果自然这么容易处理，你就不会记住它，而在这里反而是好事。所以我们认为这也是一部分原因，告诉我们处理自然刺激确实比处理城市刺激更容易，后者你得关注更多东西，它更‘黏人’。

And if it's so easy to process nature, you're just not going to remember it. And that in this case is a good thing. So we think that's also part of it, that's also saying to us that, yeah, it's just easier to process this natural stimulation versus this urban stimulation where you just have to attend to more stuff. It's more sticky.

你有没有数据说明人在自然环境和城市环境中对时间的感知更好还是更差？

Do you have any data as to whether or not people track time better or worse when they are in natural versus urban environments?

所以我并没有直接的证据，但我有一些其他零散的小证据，我觉得能帮我们接近答案。我们做过一些研究，把人们送到——这次其实是送到一个室内的自然植物园，芝加哥非常漂亮的加菲尔德温室，对比的是芝加哥水塔商场，一家很高档的室内商场。我们给参与者发了实验室里的手机，会在他们逛温室或商场时弹窗提问。我们问：你在想什么？结果发现，在自然中行走时，人们更多会回想过去，而在商场里则不会。

So I don't have direct evidence to this, but I have a few other little pieces of evidence that I think will kind of get us there. So we've done some studies where we send people, this one was actually sending people to a nature arboretum, an indoor nature arboretum, the Garfield Conservatory, a really beautiful conservatory in Chicago versus the Chicago Water Tower Mall, a very fancy indoor mall in Chicago. And we actually gave participants here cell phones that we had in the lab that would ping them and ask them questions while they were going on the walk in the conservatory, the walk in the mall. And we asked them, what are you thinking about? And it turns out when people are walking in nature, they actually think more about the past than walking in the mall.

这挺有意思。还有一点也有趣：人们说在商场里感觉更冲动，而在温室里不会，这说得通——商场设计就是希望人买东西。但“回想过去”这一点让我觉得时间可能放慢了。其他人也发现，城市越大，人走得越快，整体节奏都更快。

So that was kind of interesting. This is also kind of interesting. People also said that they felt more impulsive in the mall than in the conservatory, which makes sense that mall designers want people to be buying things. But this idea about thinking about the past to me suggested a little bit that time might be going a bit slower. Other people have found in cities that the larger the city is, people walk faster, like the pace of everything is a little bit faster.

所以我猜测，基于这两个发现，在自然里时间确实会慢下来，只是我还没有直接证据。我觉得这会是超级值得研究的问题。我的假设就是：在自然中，时间会变慢一点。

So my hunch is that based on those two findings that I think time does probably slow down in nature, but I don't have direct evidence for that. I I think that's something that'd be really super interesting to study. But that would be my hypothesis that in nature, time does slow down a bit.

如果非要下注，你觉得进美术馆更像在自然里散步，还是在城市环境里？那里信息那么丰富，有无数选择，你得拒绝某些展厅、某些画、某些雕塑，要做很多决定。

If you had to wager a guess, would you assume that going into an art gallery is more similar to taking a walk in nature or an urban environment? I mean, it's so rich with information. You have options. You have to decline certain things, certain rooms, certain paintings, certain sculptures. It's a lot of decision making.

可大多数人觉得大型画廊极其让人平静。也许是因为大家都很安静

And yet, most people find galleries, big galleries, be extremely calming. Maybe it's also because everyone's quite quiet

我觉得画廊的效果可能跟自然类似。卡普兰的“注意力恢复理论”并不只针对自然，它只说：找一个对定向注意力要求不高、同时又有柔和迷人刺激的环境。美术馆可能符合这两条——如果你不用被考艺术品，只是随意逛逛，没有任务清单，我觉得那里会有很多柔和而迷人的刺激。

in I would say the the gallery is would have a similar effect to nature, would be my guess. Because, you know, Kaplan's attention restoration theory really is not specific to nature. It basically just says, you gotta find an environment that doesn't place a lot of demands on directed attention while simultaneously having softly fascinating stimulation. And an art gallery might meet those two criteria. If you don't have to be tested on the artwork, and you can just kind of go there, and you don't have an agenda, I think there's gonna be a lot of very softly fascinating stimulation in art gallery.

所以我猜，逛美术馆可能产生类似效果。再跳一步：我们做过研究，看逛公园和逛博物馆与犯罪率的关系。很多研究指出，接触自然能降低攻击性，我们认为关键在于注意力。

So my hunch would be that, yeah, walking through an art gallery might have a similar kind of effect. I would this is gonna be a little bit of a jump. There there are some studies that we did where we were looking at the relationship between park visits and crime and going to a museum versus crime. So these were there's been a lot of actually interesting studies suggesting that interacting with nature can make people less aggressive. And we think it has to do with attention.

我们拿到了惊人的手机轨迹数据，覆盖芝加哥十万人，知道他们住哪、整整一个月去了哪。我们量化：有多少人离开社区去公园，又有多少人离开社区去博物馆？再与犯罪率关联。结果确实发现，常去公园的社区犯罪率更低，而去博物馆的次数没有预测作用。

So we had this incredible data set, the cell phone trace data set, where from 100,000 people in Chicago, we knew where they lived, and we knew where they went for an entire month. So what we did is we quantified how many times did people leave their neighborhood and go and visit a park versus leaving their neighborhood and going to a museum or something like that? And we wanted to correlate that with crime. And sure enough, we found that neighborhood where people leave their neighborhood and go and visit a park, there's actually, that predicted less crime in those neighborhoods, but the museum visits didn't predict Oh.

这个控制了社会经济背景之类的变量吗？

That. And this was controlled for, I don't know, like, socioeconomic background.

嗯，尽量控制了。毕竟是相关研究，不能断言因果，但我们把年龄、教育、收入等人口变量都控了。所以看起来，逛公园确实有点特别之处，至少在降低攻击性上。不过我还是相信，逛博物馆可能跟自然有类似效果，也许没自然强，但博物馆具备很多自然漫步拥有的元素。

Yeah. I mean, in more or less mean, again, it's a correlational study, so I can't claim causality but we also controlled for age, education, income, all those demographics. So, there, it seemed like there was something special about the park visit versus the museum visit on at least aggression. But I do believe that going through a museum might have a similar effect to nature. I'm not sure it'll be as strong, but I think it has the the museum maybe has a lot of the same elements that nature that walk might have.

我的意思是，我想我正开始不由自主地陷入这样一个深坑：到底哪些东西会消耗注意力，哪些东西又能恢复注意力。因为我个人相信，我们专注的能力是打造美好人生的标志。是的。我甚至到了这种程度：在徒步或散步时，我会听有声书和播客。对。

I mean, I think I'm just obsessively starting to drop into the trench of, you know, what sorts of things are attention depleting and what sorts of things are attentionally restorative. Because I personally believe that our ability to attend is like the hallmark of building a great life. Yes. And I've, so much so that, you know, on hikes and walks, I will listen to audiobooks and podcasts. Yeah.

—但有时候，比如我会完全在安静中锻炼。—嗯。—然后我会把音乐当作一种助推，在我锻炼特别艰难的时刻推我一把，但接着我会关掉音乐，再回到安静。不会全程都轰着音乐。有时候我会

-But there are times when, for instance, I will exercise with silence. -Yep. -And then I'll use music as something to, like, push me through some particularly hard moments in the exercise, but then I'll turn it off and bring it back. Don't just kinda, like, head out the whole time blasting music. Sometimes I'll

那样做。

do that.

但我开始把自己当成一个实验者，把“注意力”当成我们每天都会耗尽的资源。睡眠，大体上能把它恢复。再回到这个话题，我们对话的背景里一直潜伏着关于社交媒体的讨论。在深入之前，如果此刻让你给出一个重置注意力能力的最佳建议，基本要素是什么？

But I'm starting to become kind of a experimentalist with this idea of, you know, attention as this resource that we deplete each day. Sleep, it's restored, mostly. Go back again, looming in the backdrop of this conversation is a conversation about social media. Before we go there, if you were at this point to give a kind of a best recommendation in terms of how to reset one's attentional abilities, what are the basic requirements?

这里也有很多可说的。我觉得你得特别留意“定向注意力疲劳”。所以如果你正在学习或上班，却发现自己很难集中，我建议不要硬撑。如果你有那个能力和时间休息，我推荐你停下来，去休息。那我要你做什么样的休息呢？

So I think there's a lot there too. I think you have to be really mindful about directed attention fatigue. So if you're trying to study or you're at work and you're having a really hard time concentrating, I would recommend not just trying to power through. If if you have the ability and the time to take a break, I recommend that you stop and you take a break. And what kind of break do I recommend you do?

我建议你去找点自然，到自然里去走走。

I recommend that you go and try to find some nature and walk in nature.

如果你一开始就很难进入专注状态呢？—并不是你已经把它用累了—对。—你知道，很多听播客或别处来信的人会说，他们起床了，尽量睡够，早上晒了太阳，喝了水，喝了咖啡，坐到电脑前，就是无法集中。—然后他们开始想：是不是脑雾？要不要吃益智药？

What if you're you're having a hard time getting into a focus state at all? -It's not that you've fatigued it -Yeah. That -You know, so many people that I hear from who listen to the podcast and elsewhere will say, you know, they get up, they did their best to get their sleep, they get their morning sunlight, they hydrate, they drink their caffeine, they sit down to their computer, and they just can't focus. -And then they start thinking like, Do they have brain fog? Do they need nootropic?

你知道，各种疑问就冒出来了。你怎么看？

You know, all these questions start to arise. But what what are your thoughts?

某种意义上，即使你睡得很足、吃得很好，你仍可能处于定向注意力疲劳状态。所以，如果你一大早就无法集中，那就去散步。对吧？这应该成为你做的第一件事。或者，如果你接触不到自然，也许听听自然声音，或者看看自然视频之类的。

In some sense, even though you might be very well slept and very well fed, you could still be in a directed attention fatigue state. So I think, yeah, if you can't concentrate right in the beginning of the morning, then you should go for a walk. Right? That should be the first thing you should do. Or if you don't have access to nature, maybe listen to some nature sounds or or watch a nature video or something like that.

我们发现所有这些方式都有好处。哪怕只是朝窗外的自然景色看一眼也有益。看张照片，你这儿就有一张自然照片。看自然图片也能带来好处。所以我想说，任何时候你难以集中，不管是一天的开始、结束还是中间，我都建议你用自然做某种休息，可以是模拟自然，比如听自然声音、看自然视频、看自然图片，或者更好的是，如果你能真的走出去与自然互动。

We find that all those things can be beneficial. Even looking out the window to nature can be beneficial. Looking at a picture, you've got a picture of nature here. Looking at a picture of nature can be beneficial. So I would say anytime you're having trouble concentrating, it doesn't have to, it doesn't matter if it's at the beginning of the day or the end of the day or the middle of the day, We, I would recommend that you take some kind of break with nature and it could be simulated nature like listening to nature sounds, watching a nature video, looking at nature pictures, or even better is if you can actually get out and interact with nature.

因为史蒂夫·卡普兰过去也常谈到这些可能对恢复性环境很重要的其他要素。其中之一是环境必须具有“广度”，也就是说它得有足够的有趣事物供人观赏。这并不意味着它非得是约塞米蒂谷那样拥有惊人空间广度的地方。我是说，那里巨大无比。但比如在我的办公室附近，芝加哥大学有一个日式花园——凤凰花园。

Because Steve Kaplan used to also talk about these other elements that might be important for a restorative environment. One was that the environment had to have extent, meaning that it had to have enough interesting things to look at. Now, it doesn't mean that it has to be Yosemite Valley, which has incredible spatial extent. I mean, it's huge, it's enormous. But, you know, like near my office the University of Chicago, we have this Japanese garden, the Garden Of The Phoenix.

它可能只有100平方米左右，非常小，但天哪，它仍然很有广度。你知道，它有一条小径，有一个小瀑布，你还能看到密歇根湖。

It might be only like a 100 square meters. It's pretty small, but man, it's still got a lot of extent. You know, it's got a walking path. It's got a little waterfall. You can see Lake Michigan.

所以这是其中一个要素。另一个关于自然的点是，它最好与你的目标相容。我什么意思呢？如果你有一场大考还没复习，我不确定去大自然散步会奏效，你最好利用那段时间学习。

So that's one element. Another thing about the nature is that you want it to be compatible with your goals. So what do I mean by that? If you've got a big exam and you haven't studied, I'm not sure going for the walk in nature is going to work. You better use that time to study.

但如果你无法集中注意力，还试图硬撑，我不认为这能与你的目标相容；我觉得去大自然散步才与目标相容。这是另一个非常重要的点。史蒂夫还常提到另一个重要概念：环境需要给你一种“远离感”，让你某种程度上脱离当前环境，几乎像是一种心态的转变。同样，这并不意味着你得跑得非常远，但你可以去一个不在你书桌旁的地方。

But if you can't concentrate, you know, trying to power through, don't think it's gonna be compatible to your goals. I think going in for the nature walk is compatible with your goals. So that's another thing that's going to be really important. And the other concept that Steve used to talk about being important is this is that the environment needs to give you the sense of being away, that you're kind of removed from your current environment, almost like a change of mindset. And again, that doesn't mean you have to go really, really far away, but you might want to go to a location that's not at your desk.

所以，也许别坐在书桌旁看自然图片，而是去别处看自然图片。我觉得这种距离感可能有益。我不知道卡尔·纽波特在《深度工作》里有没有提到这一点，但我听人说过，在办公室里可以划出一个专门用于深度工作的区域。我觉得这种“远离感”与此相关。

So maybe don't sit at your desk and look at the nature pictures. Maybe you want to go somewhere else and look at the nature pictures. And this kind of distance I think could be helpful. I don't know if Cal Newport talks about this in his deep work, but, you know, I've heard people talking about in an office, might wanna have like a separate area of your office for deep work. And I think this kind of sense of being away is related to that.

你多少想摆脱当前状态，进入另一个能补充这些资源的环境。

You kind of want to get out of your current state and go into this other environment that might be able to replenish those resources.

所以我听到的是硬币有两面。一面是划定一个专门用于深度工作的区域。是的，我采纳了卡尔的建议，现在我在地下室设了一个区域，信不信由你。而且那地下室里从来没有手机。

So I'm hearing that there are two sides of the coin. One is to designate an area for work that's truly for deep work. Yes. I followed Cal's recommendation, and now I have an area in my basement, believe it or not. And there has never been a phone in that basement.

那里没有

There are no

手机被允许进入那地下室。这不是规则，不是流程，而是一项政策。

phones allowed in that basement. That's not a rule, it's not a protocol, it's a policy.

我记得他在他的……他有一个图书室办公室，他会去那里，我非常赞同这种做法。

And I remember he talked about it in his he has this library office that he goes to, and I very much agree with that.

现在，如果我需要查论文，下面也能连一点网，但我下去工作时会把电脑的Wi-Fi关掉。我发誓，在地下三小时完成的事情，比在地面上三周还多，效果巨大。另一方面就是换个环境。听起来这些散步或走进自然的行程并不需要很长时间。

Now, do get Internet access down there a little bit if I need to look for papers, but I've been turning off Wi Fi on my computer when I go down there to work. And I get more done in three hours down there than I would in three weeks above ground. I swear, it's huge effect. The other side of the coin is this business of getting out into a different environment. And it sounds like these walks or these ventures into nature don't take terribly long.

那需要多久才能获得专注力、工作记忆的提升？数据怎么说？

How long does one need to do this in order to get the enhancement and focus and working memory? Like, what did the data say?

嗯，我们的步行研究是五十分钟，但我见过最短二十分钟的实验也能产生效果。针对认知增强。

Yeah. I mean, when we did the our walking study was fifty minutes, but I've seen other studies with as little as twenty minutes. You can get the effect. And For cognitive enhancement. For cognitive enhancement.

对。实际上有些关于多动症儿童的有趣研究，发现只要在大自然里散步二十分钟，孩子们的注意力提升效果跟服一剂利他林差不多，相当惊人。所以不必很久。我们做自然图片幻灯展示时，只持续了大约十分钟。

Mhmm. And there's actually been some interesting studies with kids with ADHD, And they find attention benefits for these kids with ADHD after just a twenty minute walk in nature that actually was similar to like a dose of Ritalin. So that was pretty incredible. So it doesn't have to be super long. And when we were doing the slideshow of nature pictures, that was only for about ten minutes.

因此不需要非常长时间的沉浸。也有研究建议，总体上每周大约接触自然两小时就好。

So it doesn't have to be a really, really long immersion. There have been other studies that have suggested like overall, you might want to get about two hours a week in nature.

我想先暂停一下，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。AG1是一款含有维生素、矿物质、益生菌的饮品，还添加了益生元和适应原。作为从事科研近三十年、同样长期关注健康与健身的人，我一直在寻找能提升身心健康与表现的最佳工具。我在2012年就发现了AG1，远在我——之前，此后每天都服用。我发现它全面改善了我的健康、精力和专注力，只要喝了就感觉好很多。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance. I discovered AG1 back in 2012, long before I ever had and I've been taking it every day since. I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it.

AG1采用最优质的原料，配比得当，并且持续升级配方却不涨价。事实上，AG1刚刚推出了最新配方。新一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微群影响的最新研究，现在添加了数种经临床验证的益生菌株，已被证明能同时支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，还能改善排便规律、减少胀气。每当有人问我如果只选一种补剂会选什么，我总是回答AG1。

AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost. In fact, AG1 just launched their latest formula upgrade. This next gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome. And it now includes several clinically studied probiotic strains shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating. Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say AG1.

想尝试AG1的朋友，请访问drinkag1.com/huberman。限时内，AG1将免费赠送一个月用量的Omega-3鱼油以及一瓶维生素D3加K2。正如我之前在节目中提到的，Omega-3鱼油和维生素D3K2已被证明有助于情绪与大脑健康、心脏健康、激素平衡等诸多方面。再次提醒，前往drinkag1.com/huberman订阅即可免费获得一个月Omega-3鱼油和一瓶维生素D3加K2。本期节目同样由Our Place赞助。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free one month supply of omega-three fish oil along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2. As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-three fish oil and vitamin D3K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health, to healthy hormone status and much more. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free one month supply of omega-three fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription. Today's episode is also brought to us by Our Place.

Our Place出品我最爱的锅具和其他炊具。令人震惊的是，80%的不粘锅以及许多厨具、小家电仍含有PFAS等“永久化学品”。正如我在节目里讨论过的，这些PFAS或像特氟龙这样的永久化学物质与激素紊乱、肠道微群失衡、生育问题等重大健康隐患相关，因此尽量避免它们非常重要，这也是我钟爱Our Place的原因。

Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware. Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of nonstick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products. As I've discussed before in this podcast, these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems. So it's really important to try and avoid them. This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.

Our Place的产品采用顶级材质，完全不含PFAS和任何毒素。我尤其喜欢他们的Titanium Always Pan Pro。这是第一口真正零化学涂层的不粘锅，采用纯钛制造，意味着不含任何有害的永久化学物质，且不会因时间推移而降解或失去不粘效果。

Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all completely PFAS and toxin free. I especially love their Titanium Always Pan Pro. It's the first nonstick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating. Instead it uses pure titanium. This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its nonstick effect over time.

它的外观也很漂亮。我几乎每天早上都会用我的钛金Always Pan Pro煎蛋。它的设计让鸡蛋受热均匀，完全不粘锅。我也会用它煎汉堡和牛排，能在肉上形成漂亮的焦痕。但同样，什么都不粘，所以清洗非常方便，甚至可以放进洗碗机。

It's also beautiful to look at. I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning. The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan. I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it puts a really nice sear on the meat. But again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean and it's even dishwasher safe.

我非常喜欢它，几乎一直在用。我们的品牌现在推出了全套钛金专业厨具，采用首创的钛金不粘技术。如果你在寻找无毒、耐用的锅具，请访问fromourplace.com/huberman，结账时使用代码Huberman。有100天无忧试用、免费送货和免费退货，你可以零风险体验这套出色的厨具。你知道，我一直痴迷于脑干中发生的这种差异，也就是你知道的，那些与唤醒水平和压力或平静相关的区域。

I love it and I basically use it constantly. Our place now has a full line of titanium pro cookware that uses its first of its kind titanium nonstick technology. So if you're looking for nontoxic long lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code Huberman at checkout. With a hundred day risk free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can experience this terrific cookware with zero risk. You know, I've been long obsessed with this difference between what happens in our brain stem, you know, the areas involved, as you know, with levels of arousal and stress versus calm.

当我们注视一个固定点与地平线时，或者当我们进入全景视觉时。现在有大量数据支持这样一个观点：当我们盯着一个小框，比如手机或电脑，或者我们专注于阅读或注意某事时，我们的自主神经唤醒水平会上升。不会无限上升，但这很有道理，对吧？视觉注意力与认知注意力匹配，你需要唤醒，也就是警觉性，来获得认知注意力。但当我们进入全景视觉时，也就是，你知道的，对于爱好者来说，可以查一下大细胞视觉。

When we look at a fixation point versus a horizon, or when we go into panoramic vision. And there are now ample data to support the idea that when we fixate on a small box, like a phone or a computer, or we're fixated on something we're reading or paying attention to it, that our level of autonomic arousal creeps up. Doesn't creep up indefinitely, but this makes sense, right? Visual attention matches the cognitive attention, you need arousal, AKA alertness, get cognitive attention. But that when we go into panoramic vision, which is, you know, for the aficionados, you can look up magnocellular vision.

你实际上是在用更大的像素获取视觉信息。当我们看向地平线时

What you're essentially doing is you're taking bigger pixels of the Yes. Visual And when we look at a horizon

对。

Yep.

我们自然会进入全景视觉，除非我们在看手机并给地平线拍照。所以请注意。我觉得很有趣的是，像自然这样的视觉环境让我们获取更大的“像素”——如果我们谈的是视觉空间——但也许我们也在，这是我痴迷的问题，也许我们在获取更大的时间“像素”。你怎么看这样一个大致观点：为了专注，我们需要让大脑进入这种时间漂移

We naturally go into panoramic vision, unless we're looking at our phone and taking a picture of the horizon. So take note. It's interesting to me to think about visual environments such as nature that have us taking larger bins, pixels, if we're talking about visual space, but that we're also perhaps, this is a question I'm obsessed with, perhaps taking larger time bins. What do you think about a kind of a general idea that what we need to do in order to be focused is to allow our mind to go into these kind of, like, time drift

状态？是的，我觉得，你知道，你是从视觉角度谈，但我认为这也涉及认知和心理层面。所以我也觉得，身处自然能拓宽你的认知视野。所以我想这就是为什么人们有时，你常听到这些轶事，人们苦思冥想一个问题，怎么也解决不了。

states? Yeah, and I kind of think, you know, you're talking about it from a visual perspective, but I think it's also from a cognitive mental perspective. So I think also too, being in nature kind of widens your cognitive, you know, landscape. And that's why I think people sometimes, you know, you hear all these anecdotes where people are struggling to solve a problem. They can't figure it out.

他们去自然里散个步，然后砰地一下，问题解决了。因为大脑其实还在处理那个问题，对吧？但也许身处自然能激发这种内在注意空间的拓宽。

They go for a walk in nature, and then boom. They they solve the problem. Because the brain is still churning on that. Right? But maybe being out in nature sort of inspires this widening of attentional space internally.

我们有一位嘉宾

We had a guest

上过这档播客，宾夕法尼亚大学的迈克尔·普拉特。他是神经科学家，他跟我们讲了一个实验，相当惊人。我——这仍让我震惊。你可能知道，但我当时不知道，也就是，如果你让实验室里的人做连点任务，一种点的排列非常紧密，另一种点之间距离远得多，然后你再给他们一个创造力任务。

on this podcast, Michael Platt from the University of Pennsylvania. He's a neuroscientist, and he told us about this experiment. It's pretty wild. I'm so this still blows me away. You're probably familiar with it, but I wasn't, which is that if you have human subjects in a lab, do a connect the dots task where the dots are placed very close together versus a connect the dots task where the dots are placed much further apart, and then you give them a creativity task.

那些执行任务的人，在良好控制条件下，能够在物理空间上连接相距更远的点，他们在解决问题时表现出显著更高的创造性洞察力。所以视觉空间和时间，以及我们在认知空间和时间中连接事物的能力，之间存在某种关联。这就是为什么你之前说，当你在自然中，没有太多词汇来描述事物时，对我而言，如果我思考普拉特提到的结果，也许并不仅仅是语言的匮乏，而是你的大脑可能开始切换到其他认知模式。我不想显得太书呆子——

The people who do the task, and it's well controlled for folks, connecting dots that are further apart in physical space show significantly elevated levels of creative insight to solving problems. And so there's something about visual space and time, and our ability to link things in cognitive space and time. This is why, when you said earlier that when you're out in nature, there aren't as many words to describe things. What that means to me, if I think about the results that Platt was talking about, is that perhaps it isn't just that there's a dearth of language, but perhaps then your brain starts to drop into other, like, modes of cognition. Don't want to sound too nerdy to sound nerdy here, but you

你知道，有

know, there

很多东西在你的大脑里是无法用语言描述的。比如你的童年。你可以讲完整的故事，但它仍然无法真正捕捉那段经历，对吧？但那里有你的创伤。

are all sorts of things in your brain that have that are can't have words assigned to them. Like, for instance, your childhood. You could give the whole story, but it still wouldn't capture it. Right? But there was your trauma.

有你的胜利。有你坠入爱河的时刻。你知道，我们有这些词，但它们无法捕捉体验本身。它们无法捕捉那种 visceral 的体验，气味，味道。所以我喜欢这个想法：在自然中，事物足够稀疏却又足够丰富

There was your wins. There were your falling in love. You know, we have these words, but they don't capture the experience. They don't capture, like, the the visceral experience, the smells, the taste. And so I love the idea that in nature, things are sparse enough yet rich enough

是的。

Yes.

也许这些网络就被触发了。

That maybe these networks get get triggered.

对。而且我想，你知道，如果我们想稍微深入一点神经科学，我们有一些关于大脑在“静息”状态下是什么样子的想法。当我们谈到分形时，大多数人会想到空间分形。比如一片雪花，它有特定的形状。如果你把雪花放在显微镜下放大，它仍然保持那种形状。

Right. And I think, you know, this is kind of another if we wanna get into the neuroscience a little bit, we have some of these ideas that for what a brain looks like when it's kind of at rest. And when we talk about fractalness, know, most of us think about like a spatial fractal. So if there's a snowflake, it's got a characteristic shape. If you put that snowflake under a microscope and zoom in, it still kind of has that same shape.

你再放大一些，它仍然有同样的形状。所以无论你以什么尺度观察雪花，它都保持同样的形状。这被称为雪花在空间上是“无标度”的，或者换句话说，它是分形的。它在不同的空间尺度上重复这种图案，而自然中充满了分形。你能

If you zoom in some more, it's still got that same shape. So it doesn't matter at what scale you look at the snowflake, it's got the same shape. So that's called as a snowflake is sort of scale free spatially or another way to say it is that it's fractal. It's got this repeated patterning at these different spatial scales, and nature is filled with fractals. Could you

多给我们举些例子吗？我记得听过曼德布洛特的分形。是的，尽管我记得曼德布洛特的名字，这只能告诉你我的大脑里充满了无意义的信息，因为我想知道的不是谁提出了它。对吧？这就是海马体的问题。

tell us more about some of those? I I recall hearing about fractals at Mandelbrot. Yeah, Yeah, despite the fact that I remember Mandelbrot's name, all that tells you is that my brain is filled with meaningless information because what I want to know is not who came up with it. Right? This is the problem with the hippocampus.

对吧？你可以完美编码完全无用的信息。不是对曼德布洛特不敬。但在自然中，除了雪花，分形还出现在哪里？它们在树皮里吗？

Right? You can encode perfectly useless information. No discredit to Mandelbrot. But where in nature, aside from snowflakes, do fractals show up? Are they in tree bark?

到处都是。我的意思是，一棵树也很分形，对吧？你有树干，然后它分叉成树枝，再分叉成更小的树枝，再分叉成叶子，叶子上的叶脉也继续分叉。所以它非常、非常分形。在所有这些不同的尺度上，它都有相同的分支结构。

Everywhere. I mean, a tree is also quite fractal, right? So you have the trunk of the tree, and then it breaks off into branches, which breaks off into smaller branches, which breaks off into leaves, and the leaves have the veins that also branch off. So it's very, very fractal. It's got the same branching structure at all these different scales.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。所以当我看沙漠里的沙子时，是的，你告诉我这种规律性存在于每一个尺度上。

Yeah. So when I look at like sand in the desert Yeah. You're telling me that this regularity exists at every scale.

是的，差不多。我觉得沙漠在风的方面也会是分形的，因为风本身也是一种分形过程。所以沙子会在某种程度上呈分形。山景也会相当分形。

Yeah. Pretty much. I think a desert would also be fractal in terms of how the wind because the wind is also kind of a fractal sort of process. So the sand will be somewhat fractal. A mountain scape will also be quite fractal.

海岸线也会是分形的。

A coastline will be fractal.

好吧，告诉我，对于一座山来说，我在更小的尺度上看哪里？我能想象一座山。山？

Well well, tell me for a mountain. So where am I gonna look at a smaller scale? I can see can imagine a mountain. Mountain?

是的。如果你放大山的不同部分，它会具有与缩小版本相同的一些结构属性。真的吗？是的，很神奇。

Yeah. Now if you zoomed in on a different portion of the mountain, it would have some of the same structural properties as the zoomed out version. Really? Yeah. Wild.

是的。所以，再次回到压缩这个话题。如果你有这样的重复模式，这可能对我们的大脑来说更容易处理，因为你真的只需要编码一种结构，因为这种结构在所有这些不同尺度上都在重复。

Yeah. So, and again, this kind of, to return back to like compression. Again, if you have this repeated patterning, that might be easier for our brain to process because you really, you just have to only kind of encode one structure, because that structure's repeated at all these different scales.

而人类、广告等等，我们试图——你知道，科学里有这种说法，人们要么是‘归并者’，要么是‘拆分者’。是的，对吧？而且很多职业生涯都是靠拆分建立起来的。是的。

Whereas human beings and advertisements and all that, we try you know, there's this thing in science, as you know, people are either lumpers or splitters. Yes. Right? And and many a career has been made by splitting. Yep.

当归并就足够的时候，却去拆分。是的。人类行为、人类广告、音乐，我的意思是，我确信其中存在巨大的规律性。

When lumping would've been sufficient. Right. Human behavior, human advertising, music, I mean, I'm sure there's immense regularity.

是的。

Yes.

但当我们被这种信息轰炸时，我现在有点要过渡到像社交媒体这样的东西。

But when we're bombarded with that, now I'm sort of making the segue to something like social media.

嗯。

Yeah.

在那里你只是被感官信息轰炸。是的。就像，我拇指一动，就能从一个认知场景跳到完全不同的认知场景。对。我的意思是，如果按我的喜好，我整个信息流都会是狗狗。

Where you're just bombarded with sensory information. Yes. Like, one movement of my thumb takes me from one cognitive landscape to a completely different cognitive landscape. Right. I mean, if it were my preference, my entire feed would be dogs.

嗯。但我从狗狗跳到政治，再到健身，再到算法在我身上测试的内容。我的意思是，我们能做到这一点真是太神奇了。嗯。然而，我们越谈论大自然以及它如何恢复精力，或者读一本书，以及那种跟随一个共同叙事的感觉，像是深入其中，或者看一部电影，希望它的情节有一定的连续性，我就越意识到社交媒体，用一个不太好的词来说，是一种混乱。

Yep. But I'm going from dogs to politics to fitness to and then stuff that the algorithm is testing on me. I mean, it's amazing that we can do this. Yep. And yet, the more we talk about nature and how restorative it is, or reading a book and what a kind of a following a common narrative, like drilling down into that, or watching a movie, which hopefully has some continuity to the plot, the more I realize that social media is, for lack of a better word, is kind of chaos.

就像认知混乱。

It's like cognitive chaos.

或者它肯定不是分形的。它肯定不是不分形的。如果我们回到分形性，所以我们认为我们之前谈到空间中的分形性，比如有一个形状，你放大，还是同一个形状，再放大，还是同一个形状。你也可以谈到时间中的分形性。所以你可以有一个信号在时间中振荡，在时间中波动。

Or it's definitely not fractal. It's definitely It's not not fractal. And if we kind of return to fractalness too, so we think so we talked about fractalness in terms of space, like there's that this shape and you zoom in, same shape, zoom in, it's more same shape. You could also talk about fractalness in time. So you can have like a signal oscillating in time, fluctuating in time.

你也可以量化那个信号在时间中有多分形。嗯。所以就像如果你在一毫秒、十毫秒、五十毫秒、十秒、三十秒、一小时这些时间窗口看这个信号，它看起来一样还是不一样？如果这个信号在所有这些不同时间窗口看起来都一样，我们就说这个信号在时间中是分形的。你能给

And you can also quantify how fractal that signal is in time. Mhmm. So it's like if you look at the signal at one millisecond, ten milliseconds, fifty milliseconds, ten seconds, thirty seconds an hour, does that signal look the same or does it look different? If the signal looks the same at all those different temporal windows, we say the signal is fractal in time. Can you give

我一个来自自然环境的例子，再一个来自城市环境的对比？我在想城市环境里的汽车警报是最能引起注意的。我的意思是，它会抓住我们的非自愿注意力。

me an example from a nature environment and one by comparison from a urban environment? I'm thinking a car alarm in an urban environment is like the most alerting. I mean, grabs our involuntary attention.

而且它不分形。它是周期性的。它只是，你知道，一遍又一遍。像一个分形信号会低频部分会有很大能量，但它也包含所有不同频率，但它们的振幅，这会有点专业，是与频率成比例的。所以低频部分会有更高的振幅或更高的能量，而高频部分会有更低的振幅或更低的能量。

And it's not fractal. It's periodic. It's just, you know, over and over again. Like a fractal signal will kinda have low frequency stuff will be have a lot of power, but it also has all of the different frequencies are represented, but how their amplitude is, this is gonna get a little nerdy is proportional to their frequency. So low frequency stuff will have higher amplitude or higher power, and high frequency stuff will have lower amplitude or lower power.

很多自然声音之类的东西也更具有分形特征。但有趣的是，你也可以观察大脑信号。比如我可以把一个人放进核磁共振机，看看不同脑区的波动情况；或者给他们戴上脑电帽，看看他们的电活动如何波动。结果发现，当大脑在时间上更具分形特征时，它付出的努力更少，认知负荷更小。

And a lot of natural sounds and stuff are also more fractal. But what's interesting is that you can also look at brain signals. Like I can take put a person in MRI machine and look at like, how are the brain areas fluctuating? Or I can have an EEG cap on them and look at how their electrical activity is fluctuating. And it turns out when brains are more fractal in time, brains are exerting less effort, less cognitive effort.

所以，说来有点沮丧，但随着年龄增长，我们的大脑分形程度会降低。第一次学习新任务时，因为更难，大脑的分形程度比你熟练掌握这项任务时要低。做简单任务时，大脑的分形程度比做困难任务时高。因此我们推测，大自然可能正把大脑推向一种更高分形的状态，那可能是一种关键的休息态，让你真正能在需要时集中定向注意力。

So, you know, it's kind of depressing, but as we age, our brains kind of get less fractal. If you're learning a new task for a first time when it's harder, the brain is less fractal than when you're well practiced at the task. If you're doing an easy task, the brain is more fractal than when you're doing a harder task. And so we think that maybe nature is kind of pushing the brain into this like higher fractal state that might be like this sort of critical rested state that's that's kind of a really that's gonna that's gonna that's gonna allow you to actually have a lot of directed attention. When you need it.

需要时就能集中，而不是像社交媒体那样只是拉扯、抓取。它不会让你进入这种分形休息态，反而会把分形程度往下压。

When you need it versus, like, the social media stuff is just pulling, grabbing. It's it's not letting you get into this fractal rested state. It's it's it's driving fractalness down.

对。社交媒体平台——并不是要把它们描绘成邪恶，因为我也在社交媒体上教学、学习、享受——但这是一门生意，对吧？他们可不是免费做的。不是。

Right. Well, the social media platforms, not to paint them as evil because I I teach on social media, learn on social media, enjoy social media, but it's a business. Right. They're not doing it for free. No.

他们可不是出于好心。我基本上把社交媒体看作是我们所有人都选择参与的真人秀节目。——是啊。——我们把自己投了进去。——对。

They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. And I basically think of social media as the reality TV show that we've all either chosen to be a part of. -Yeah. -We've cast ourselves in it. -Yep.

——这里的要点是，它并不是为了让你放松而设计的。不是。它是为了捕获你的定向注意力。

-The idea here is that it is not designed to be relaxing. No. It's designed to capture your directed attention.

对。

Right.

如果只抓住你的非自愿注意力，它就起不了作用。现在这可能听起来有点反直觉，因为我以及所有人都有过这样的经历：拿起手机，心想我就看一分钟，我就稍微

If it just grabbed your involuntary attention, it wouldn't work. Now, that might seem a little bit counterintuitive because I and everybody else has the experience of of, picking up your phone, you're like, I'm only going to spend a minute. I'm going to just kind

看看

of check

Instagram上有什么。——结果一下子被带进兔子洞，一件事接着一件事，三十分钟后你才反应过来：天啊，我得准备工作了之类的。但你之前说的非自愿注意力，是那种先提示你某样东西，然后你就顺着那个方向走的东西。

what's on Instagram. -And all of sudden, you're taken down this rabbit hole of one thing, then, you know, it's thirty minutes later, you're like, Goodness, I got to get ready for work or something like this. But the involuntary attention that you were talking about before is the kind of thing that cues you to something, and then you go down that direction.

对。或者说，社交媒体并不是温柔地吸引你，而是粗暴地吸引你。它抓住你，不让你走神，也不让你去想别的事。它占据了你所有的注意力和资源。

Right. Or I would say that the social media, it's not softly fascinating. It's harshly fascinating. It's it's it's grabbing you and not letting you mind wander or think about anything else. It's it's grabbing all of your attention and resources.

而且我觉得它做到这一点，并不是通常那种把你带进“兔子洞”的方式，也不是说你花很多时间看一条帖子。对吧？如果你感兴趣，你可能会点进评论区

And I would say it does that not by taking us typically down rabbit holes, but it's not like you spend a lot of time on one post. Right. You might go into the comment section if you're interested

然后

in

但关键在于，你脑子里有某种资源——我把它想象成儿茶酚胺、多巴胺、去甲肾上腺素，再加上一堆神经网络代谢的东西。——对。——它永远不会是单一的东西，对吧？

that, but it's the fact that you have a I'm imagining now that there's some resource in the brain that's a combination of catecholamines, dopamine, norepinephrine, certainly. Plus a bunch of neural network metabolism stuff. -Yeah. -It will never be one thing, right?

不是

It's not

不会只是某种分子。而且，根据我们休息得如何，我们一天开始时会拥有一定数量的“定向注意力单位”可以花。

gonna be like a molecule. And that depending on how well rested we are, we go into the day with a certain amount of directed attention units that we can spend.

——对。

-Yep.

——你今天告诉我们的一切就是：走进一个分形——也就是自然环境——能让我们停止“花费”这种定向注意力。

-And everything you're telling us today is that going into a fractal, aka nature environment, allows us to come off the sort of spending -of our directed attention.

没错。

That's

而且看起来它还能重置定向注意力的“账户”。是的。有没有数据说明，它只是让我们不再花费，还是真的能补充这种定向注意力的能力？

right. And it also seems to reset the directed attention account. Yes. Are there any data that speak to whether or not it just allows us to not spend, or whether or not it actually replenishes this directed attention capability.

嗯，这是个好问题。或者它是否真的能扩展能力？它是否让你超越了自己的基线？

Yeah. It's a good question. Or does it even, like, extend capabilities? Like, does it take you above your baseline?

对。这是一种投资吗？

Right. Is it an investment?

对。

Right.

最近，我思考的不是多巴胺本身，而是你在消耗多巴胺，还是在投资多巴胺？

Lately, I think not so much about dopamine per se. I think about are you spending your dopamine down, or are you investing your dopamine?

对。我得说，不幸的是，我没有一个很好的答案。我不确定。有可能它实际上会扩展你的储备。你可能正在获得利息。

Right. And I would say, I mean, unfortunately, I don't have a good answer for it. I'm I'm not sure. It might actually it it's possible that it might expand your store. It might it might you might be getting interest.

嗯。所以我们有点纠结的一个问题是，大自然是在给我们充电，还是城市在让我们疲惫？你知道，是在消耗我们？我觉得两者都有

Mhmm. So so one of the things too that we kinda struggle with a little bit is, like, is nature boosting us a lot or is urban fatiguing us? You know, depleting us? And I think both things are kind

在起作用。我脑子里冒出一堆关于睡眠状态的问题，比如深度睡眠更像分形环境，而快速眼动更像现实，因此更具挑战性。但我会先把这些问题放一边，也许我们之后会回到它们，也许不会。我想确保我正确理解所谓的协议。走进大自然，最好动起来

of at play there. I have all set of questions popping to mind about sleep states and deep sleep being more like fractal environments and rapid eye movement being more like reality, and therefore more challenging. But I'm gonna just shelve those, and maybe we'll get back to them, maybe we won't. I wanna make sure that I understand correctly what the protocol, for lack of a better word, would be. Get out into nature, ideally move Yes.

至少二十分钟。对。而且最好把手机放下。如果你必须在这期间打电话怎么办？

For about twenty minutes minimum. Yep. And ideally, you remove yourself from phone. What if you have to make a phone call while you're doing it?

我的意思是，这就是为什么我你最好别这么做。我还得说，我知道你有时喜欢戴耳机。我会说你不想戴耳机。你希望你的全部注意力或被动注意力都被那个环境吸引。

I mean, that's why I've just You don't want to do it. And I'd even say too, I know you were saying you like to put the earbuds in sometimes. I would say you don't want the earbuds in. You want all of your attentional capacity or involuntary attention to be captured by that environment.

好的。

Okay.

很好。你知道，我有时会跟学生开玩笑说，你们有多少人边听音乐边学习？很多学生举手。是的，我边听音乐边学习。我说，好，那有多少人想边听音乐边考试？

Great. You know, it's kinda I kinda joke with my students about this a little bit where I would say, you know, how many of you study with listening to music and a lot of students raise their hand. Yeah, I study listening to music. I said, okay. How many of you wanna take the exam listening to music?

没人。没人举手，然后我说，那这不一致啊，对吧？

Nobody. Nobody raised their hand and say, well, then that's a that's not consistent. You know?

嗯。

Mhmm.

这并不是因为学生不聪明，而是因为学习本身很枯燥。嗯。听音乐只是让它更愉快，但你会分散注意力，这些注意力本来可以用来学习。我觉得反过来，我希望你完全沉浸在大自然中。

And and and it's it's not because, you know, the students are not smart. It's it's that studying sucks. Mhmm. And, you know, listening to music just makes it more pleasurable, but you're not you know, you're you're you're taking away attentional resources that could be used for the studying by listening to to music. And I think, you know, on the flip side, I want you to be fully engaged with nature.

我希望你的非自愿注意力能自动被大自然吸引，我不希望有任何东西干扰这一点。我觉得这样你才能获得最大的收益。事实上，我们做了一些研究，起初我也不确定效果如何。我们让一些被诊断为临床抑郁症的参与者参与实验。

I want your involuntary attention to be just automatically captured by this nature stimulation. I don't want anything else interfering with that. I think that's how you're gonna get the most bang for your buck. And in fact, you know, you know, we did these studies where I wasn't sure how it was gonna work. So we did some studies where we took participants who are diagnosed with clinical depression.

这可能有点残忍，但我觉得很重要。我们也让他们在自然中散步。但在他们去自然中散步之前，我们让他们先回想一个困扰他们的负面想法或记忆，试图诱导他们反刍，让他们陷入反复思考。我们当时想，也许如果你一个人去自然中散步，注意力得到恢复，他们可能会反刍得更厉害，那可能不太好。

And this was kind of mean, but I think important. We had them walk in nature too. But before these participants went for a walk in nature, we had them think about a negative thought or memory that's been bothering them to try to induce rumination to get them ruminating. And we thought, you know, maybe if you go for a walk alone in nature, and you're restoring your attention, maybe they're gonna ruminate even more. That is gonna be, you know, not good.

可能会影响表现。但结果恰恰相反，我们发现这些被我们诱导反刍的临床抑郁症患者，在自然中散步后，在工作记忆方面的改善甚至比非临床样本更强。在工作记忆方面。你可以想象，那些与抑郁和反刍作斗争的参与者，他们的工作记忆本来不太好，因为他们的认知资源被这些反复出现的负面想法占据了。

It's gonna maybe it's gonna hurt hurt performance. And we found just the opposite, that actually these participants with clinical depression who we had induced to ruminate got even stronger benefits walking in nature than our nonclinical sample. On working memory. On working memory. And you can imagine participants that are struggling with depression and rumination, their working memory is not as good because you've got cognitive resources devoted to these negative thoughts that just repeating over and over again.

你没有完整的注意力储备，因为你把它花在反刍上了。我们发现，对这些参与者来说，自然散步对注意力和工作记忆的改善效果更强。我觉得部分原因可能是，这实际上给了他们一些处理反刍所需的注意力资源。非常

You don't have your full bank account of attention because you're spending it on the rumination. And we found that for these participants, the effects were were stronger in improving their attention and working memory. And I think part of that might be that it's it's actually giving them some of the attention resources necessary to deal with the rumination. Super

有趣。我知道反刍是很多人，无论是否抑郁，都会挣扎的问题。我一直认为，随着我年纪增长，我越来越确信，分心才是敌人。是的。比如能够全身心投入工作、创造性工作，或者对我来说准备播客、读论文、和人一起散步、和人交谈，因为人际关系也很重要，当然，就是能够完全专注于当下。

interesting. I know rumination is something that many people, depressed or not, struggle with. And I've long thought, and I'm certainly coming to this conclusion with each successive year of my life, that distraction is the enemy. Yeah. Like the ability to drop into work, creative work, or for me prepping a podcast, or reading papers, or taking a walk with somebody, having a conversation with somebody, because relationships are important too, of course, and just being able to be fully present to that.

对。-这才是美好生活的基础。-对。-即使你正面临挑战。

Right. -Is really the basis of a great life. -Right. -Even if you're dealing with challenge.

——对。

-Right.

对。——就是当我们把自己分散到所有这些不同的媒介上时，不会有什么好结果

Right. -It's that when we spread ourselves out across all these different modalities, that no good comes of

就是这样，没错。

it. That's right.

而且就像任何真正糟糕的破坏力一样，最糟糕的是我们没注意到自己在大部分时间里是缺席的，它变得在社会中无处不在，却也没有被谴责。我真的把社交媒体装在一部旧手机里。所以我在旧手机上有社交媒体账号，那是我唯一能访问社交媒体的方式。有人通过社交媒体给我发东西，我不看，因为，嗯，我不知道最好的比喻是什么。就像一个想吃得健康的人，你却不停地递给他垃圾食品。

And like any destructive force that's really bad, it's the fact that we don't notice that we were absent for large swaths of it, and that it becomes pervasive in society that it's not also frowned on. I actually put social media on an old phone. So I have social media accounts on an old phone, and that's the only way I can access social media. Somebody sends me something by way of social media, I don't do it because, I mean, it's the, I don't know what the best analogy is. It's like someone who's trying to eat clean and that you're constantly handing them junk food.

对。你知道，我喜欢社交媒体，但我喜欢把它安排成专门的时间。所以二十分钟后出去散步。

Right. Know, and I enjoy social media, but I like to make it a designated So getting out for a walk in twenty minutes.

然后，我会说，把手机

And put the, I would say, put the phone in

把手机收起来。这里的核心似乎是让你的大脑进入，如果推到逻辑极限，进入一种必要的重置状态——对。也许吧。这种进入自然、我们称之为高维分形环境的状态——是的——应该类似于我们开始谈论睡眠的方式。

the Put the phone away. The whole basis here seems to be allowing your brain to go into, kind of, if I take it to its logical conclusion, to kind of its necessary state to reset Yeah. Maybe. This state of getting into nature, and let's call it high fractal environments Yep. Is similar, or should be similar to the way that we've started to talk about sleep.

你知道，在2015年之前，也许是2018年，观念还是“死后再睡”。加州大学伯克利分校的Matt Walker写了《我们为什么睡觉》这本书，改变了我们现在的认知。我和其他人一直在主张人们需要睡眠。如今，我想大家都明白，如果你不睡觉，你的心理健康、身体健康、表现都会急剧下降。你需要睡眠。

You know, prior to 2015, maybe it was 2018, the notion was sleep when you're dead. You know, Matt Walker, UC Berkeley, with the book Why We Sleep, transformed what we now understand. And I and others have been, you know, arguing that people need sleep. Now, I think everyone understands if you don't sleep, your mental health, your physical health, your performance drops dramatically. You need sleep.

Matt让我们知道，你需要慢波睡眠，你需要快速眼动睡眠。也许我们还需要这些高维分形环境。它们最好的形式就是在大自然中散步，当我们不做其他任何事时，就像你不会想——我不知道，你不会想把手机带进卧室那种

And Matt has educated us that you need slow wave sleep, you need rapid eye movement sleep. Maybe we also need these high fractal environments. And the fact that they come in their best form through walks in nature, when we're not doing anything else, just like you wouldn't want to I don't know, you don't want to bring the phone into the bedroom kind

感觉

of thing

深夜才睡，因为你睡得太晚就无法进入深度睡眠，于是错过了深度睡眠的机会。——我喜欢把清醒状态理解为一种需求，甚至可能是必需。我觉得我们对睡眠了解很多：慢波睡眠、生长激素、REM睡眠、情绪修复。现在大家会说：好，我们需要睡眠。

late at night because you're not gonna get your deep sleep because you're gonna go to sleep too late, then you miss out on the opportunity for deep sleep. Right. -I love the idea that these waking states become better understood as and perhaps even requirements. I feel like we understand so much about sleep, slow wave sleep, growth hormone, REM sleep, emotional repair. And everyone now is like, Cool, we need sleep.

这些是睡眠的不同阶段。但似乎我们对清醒状态知之甚少。——对。——以及对不同清醒状态的需求。——对。

Here are the different states of sleep. We actually know very little, it seems, about waking states. -Right. -And the requirement for different waking states. -Right.

——因为如果你整晚不睡——嗯。——你完全预料到第二天状态不会好。但我感觉，根据你的研究，我们做的很多事让我们远未达到自然最佳状态。没错。我们中有些人被临床诊断为某些问题，而我从未被临床诊断为ADHD。

-Because if you stay up all night -Yep. You entirely expect to not be at your best the next day. But I have a feeling that, based on your work, that we're doing all sorts of things that are making us far less than our natural best. That's right. And that some of us who are clinically diagnosed with things I haven't been clinically diagnosed with ADHD.

如果非要归类，我在工作上可能更偏向强迫症那一端。

If anything, I'd probably veer more towards the OCD side of things when it comes to work.

嗯。

Yep.

——PETER：但我猜，如果我们理解并进入正确的清醒状态，无论是否需要药物，生活都会显著改善。只有当我们做了正确的行为干预，才能判断这一点。——对。——所以你怎么看？这是个大问题，但我们该如何真正开始理解不同的清醒状态？——嗯。

-PETER: But my guess is that if we understand and engage in the proper waking states, that our lives are gonna improve markedly, irrespective of whether or not we need medication. I mean, that can only be determined, it seems, when we're doing the right behavioral things. -Right. -So what are your thoughts This is a big question, but what are your thoughts on really starting to understand what the different waking states are? -Yeah.

——以及我们对清醒状态的需求？因为我觉得这基本上就是你的研究核心。

-And our requirements for waking states? Because I feel like that's pretty much what your work's about.

——对，对，没错。社交媒体和手机上的东西就像垃圾食品，在很大程度上毁了我们的清醒状态。我们大量谈论的注意力恢复理论以及在自然中散步，就是告诉我们需要休息。

-Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. And I think, you know, the social media and things on the phone are kinda like the junk food. They're just ruining our waking states to a large extent. And I think what we're what we're talking a lot about with this attention restoration theory and walking in nature is that we need breaks.

在清醒时间里你需要休息。或者像你说的，如果想进入能高度专注的状态，也许得先走一段自然步道，给大脑“充电”，甚至就在一天开始之前。所以我认为这里有两层：一是我们清醒时做的很多事在消耗定向注意力，我们要减少这些；二是你不可能连续十小时高效工作。

You need breaks during your waking time. Or if, like you were talking about before, that if we wanna get into a state where we are going to be able to concentrate well, maybe you have to take the nature walk first to kind of recharge the battery even, you know, right at the beginning of the day. So I think there's two elements there. One is that there's a lot of stuff that we're doing during our waking hours that's depleting directed attention, and we wanna mitigate a lot of that stuff. The other thing is that you can't work ten hours straight.

我是说，也许有人声称可以，但我不认为人真的能连续十小时保持定向注意力。我觉得

I mean, I don't I mean, maybe some people say they can, but I just don't think people really can direct their attention for ten hours straight. I think

不是连续地。不是连续地。在跟很多作家聊过之后，因为我在写这本书，大多数职业作家会说，他们每天能真正专注写作的最长时间大约是四小时。

Not continuously. Not continuously. In talking to a lot of writers, because I've been working on this book, most writers who are, like, career writers will say that the most number of hours that they can do really focused writing per day on a regular basis is four.

-PETER：对。

-PETER: Yep.

有些人甚至说三小时。嗯。有些人说五小时，但四小时似乎是平均值。对。而且他们整天整夜都在为那四小时做准备，通常是在早上。

And some even say three. Mhmm. Some say five, but four seems to be the average. Yep. And that's where their entire day and night is dedicated to creating that four hours, typically in the morning.

虽然有些人晚上写，但大多数是在清晨写。对。四小时之后，他们就饱和了。大脑就是没法——

Although some wrote at night, most wrote early in the morning. Yep. And that after four hours, they are saturated. That the brain just can't

继续了。继续了。对。所以我认为在我们的清醒时间里，一方面要保护定向注意力，另一方面要把这些自然干预作为休息方式。

do it. Do it. Right. So I think there's this element of during our waking hours protecting directed attention, and then also doing these nature interventions as your breaks.

我很喜欢这个。我很重视早上晒太阳。我尽量看到地平线。我之所以不广泛讲这个，是因为很多人住的地方没法看到地平线。我会通过天窗上屋顶，你知道的，我可不想有人摔下屋顶，人们对信息的误用会让你吃惊。同时，如果我不这么做，我发现自己很难同样顺利地进入工作状态。

I mean, I love this. I mean, I'm big on getting sunlight in the morning. I try to see a horizon when I do it. The reason I don't talk about that so broadly is many people don't live in environments where they can catch a And I go up on my roof through a trap door, you know, and I don't want people falling off the roofs, and you'd amazed what people do with information. At the same time, if I don't do that, I find it very difficult to ratchet into work in the same way.

-我觉得，再退一步看，你的工作之所以重要，是你至少找出了一种，甚至几种方法，让我们可以重置注意力水平，甚至可能提升定向注意力的能力。再次强调，我不想妖魔化社交媒体。-对。-但社交媒体是一种商业产品，我们在参与。-对。

-I mean, I think, again, to take a step back, what I think is so important about your work is that you've identified at least one, and clearly several ways that we can reset our levels, maybe even improve our abilities at directed attention. And, again, I don't want to demonize social media. -Yeah. -But social media is it's a commercial product that we're engaging in. -Yeah.

-我们得到的是点赞、关注，有些人在上面赚钱。但大多数情况下，它是一门生意。对。而我们就是顾客。对。

-And we get returns in likes, follows, and some people get paid on there. But for the most part, it's it's a it's a business. Right. That and we're the customer. Right.

而他们是老板。

And they're the owner.

对。我只是说，它在使用你的定向注意力。这不是一种休息活动。基本上，你可以选择把定向注意力的配额花在那上面，但那样你就没有那么多留给工作或其他事情了。

Right. And I'm just saying it you're it's using directed attention. Like, it's not a restful activity. It's basically so you can choose to spend your directed attention allocation on that, but then you're gonna have less, you know, for your work or for other things.

那么，说低认知需求的活动并不总是具有恢复性，这公平吗？

So is it fair to say that low cognitive demand activities are not always restorative?

没错。

That's right.

我觉得人们真的需要理解这一点，而且得听进去，因为当我回想，比如昨天，我录了一期单人播客，那些内容极其——我不用提词器，除了广告部分，因为那些措辞涉及法律问题。注意力需求巨大。——对。——所以这回我没这么做，但过去我会结束后回家，然后我会，你知道，我发现刷社交媒体，它感觉……你可以躺着刷。——对。

I think people need to really understand that I and hear think because when I think about, like, okay, yesterday, I recorded a solo on the podcast, and those are extremely I don't use a teleprompter except for ads because those have proper wording for legal reasons. The amount of attentional demand is immense. -Right. -So I didn't do this, but in the past, I would finish up, go home, and I would, you know, I find that scrolling social media, it feels You can do it reclined. -Right.

对。我就是想……它是被动参与。——对。对。除非我在发帖或评论。

Right. I just want It's passive participation. -Right. Right. Unless I'm posting your commenting.

——对。就像，你知道，可能动动拇指就行。

-Right. -Just like, you know, maybe use my thumb.

——嗯。——你懂吧？

-Yeah. -You know?

——对。就像，点个赞之类的。但即使认知需求低，它也在消耗人，

-Right. Like, you know, and like some things. But even though it's low cognitive demand, it's draining,

——这就——对。你说得太对了。我的意思是，Steve 和我在 2010 年写过一篇论文，当时电视还被认为是那种低认知负荷、我们以为不具恢复性的活动。有很多关于电视的研究：人们连续看几小时后，会报告感到疲惫、烦躁。认知表现也会下降。

-That's is what right. You're Exactly. And I mean, that's, you know, Steve and I wrote this paper back in 2010, you know, then it was still television was still the kind of low cognitive load activity that we thought was not restful. And there's all these studies on television that people watching television after they watch for a couple hours, they report being fatigued and being irritable. Does cognitive performance decline after performance decline.

所以，即使认知负荷低，它也在耗竭。它在耗竭定向注意力。

So so it's just even though it's low cognitive load, it's it's depleting. It's depleting of directed attention.

我对这些事特别极端，而且我很兴奋能把更多知识用在创造更好的机会上，让定向注意力投向正确的事物，而不是被耗尽。我简直到了偏执的程度，比如在做单人节目前，我会一早告诉来家里的助理：‘今天别跟我说话，抱歉不是无礼，但我得一直排练。’

Well, I'm really extreme about this stuff, and I'm excited to be able to incorporate more knowledge toward creating better opportunities for directed attention to the right things and not depleting that. I mean, I'm so maniacal that, like, before I'll do a solo, I'll tell my assistant when he comes to the house in the morning, like, Please don't talk to me today. I'm sorry, don't want to be rude, but I need to keep rehearsing it

在我脑子里。我需要保持

in my head. I need to keep

不是具体的词句，而是概念本身。字面意义上，我会一直想着迷走神经的结构。通常在大约四十八小时前就开始，就像你会对某件事着迷一样。——一旦完成，就结束了。——对。

not the specific words, but the concepts in mind. Literally thinking about, like, the structure of the vagus nerve. Constantly, for usually about forty eight hours before, in the same way that, like, you would obsess over something. -And then once it's done, it's done. -Right.

——但任何在那里引入的东西，比如必须决定早餐吃什么，——嗯。——都是干扰。

-But anything that's introduced there, like having to make a decision about what to eat for breakfast, -Yeah. -is interference.

——对。

-Right.

大脑很神奇，但我们并不总能把大脑用到极致。——是啊，或者说我们的身体。——说得好。我想确保我们回到关于反刍的讨论。所以，你发现抑郁的人会以一种能把问题“倒掉”的方式，在自然中反刍他们的问题。

The brain is amazing, but we're not that great at using our brain to its best advantage always. -Yeah, or our bodies. -Well put. I want to make sure that we get back into this discussion about rumination. So, you discovered that depressed people ruminate about their problem in nature in a way that allows them to dump the problem.

我们并不知道抑郁患者是否真的会反刍他们的问题。在实验里，我们其实是强迫他们去反刍，想看看如果人处于这种反刍状态，自然是否仍然有益。结果确实有益。现在，我们有点好奇的是，也许人们只是在自然里比在城市环境里更少去想他们的问题？我们发现并不是这样。

We don't know if people with depression ruminate about their problems. We, in the experiment, we kind of force them to to ruminate, to see if people are in this ruminant state, would nature still have a benefit? And it turns out that it did. Now, one thing that we were kind of wondering about is like, do people just maybe they just think less about their problems in nature than the urban environment? And we found that wasn't true.

我们还在——这其实是和伊桑·克罗斯一起做的研究，我妻子凯瑟琳·克平也是这篇论文的作者之一——我们也在想，也许与自然互动会让人进入一种更第三方的距离感状态。也就是说，不是“我好难过”，而是“马克好难过”，你知道，是一种抽离的状态。我们也没有找到这方面的证据。人们在自然中并没有以更抽离的视角去思考他们的问题。

We were also kind of this is actually work that we did with Ethan Cross and actually my my wife, Katherine Kerpin, was also an author on the study. We also thought maybe that maybe interacting with nature might put you in this more third party distance kind of state. So instead of saying, you know, Mark is so unhappy, or instead of saying, I'm so unhappy, you'd say Mark is unhappy, you know, it's a distant state. We didn't find evidence of that too. It wasn't that people thought about their problems from a more distanced perspective in nature either.

所以，我认为发生的是：我们只是提升了他们的定向注意力。当你提升定向注意力时，你就能做很多事。也许他们能更好地处理这些反刍，因为他们有更多的认知资源来应对这些问题。

So so what I think is happening is I think we just increase their directed attention. And when you increase directed attention, you're able to do lots of things. And and maybe they could just deal with the ruminations better because they had more cognitive resources to deal with those problems.

我想稍作休息，并感谢我们的一位赞助商——Element。Element 是一种电解质饮料，含有你所需的一切，不含你不需要的东西。这意味着含有正确比例的电解质：钠、镁和钾，但不含糖。适当的水分补充对大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。即使是轻微脱水也会削弱认知和身体表现。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.

获得足够的电解质也很重要。电解质——钠、镁和钾——对你体内所有细胞的功能都至关重要，尤其是你的神经元或神经细胞。将 Element 溶于水后饮用，能非常轻松地确保你获得充足的水分和电解质。为了确保我摄入足够的水分和电解质，我每天早上醒来第一件事，就是把一包 Element 溶解在约 16 到 32 盎司的水里，然后基本上第一时间喝掉。

It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking Element dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of Element in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning. And I drink that basically first thing in the morning.

在任何运动时，尤其是在炎热天气大量出汗、流失水分和电解质的时候，我也会把 Element 溶解在水里喝。Element 有很多好喝的口味。我喜欢树莓味，也喜欢柑橘味。现在 Element 推出了一款限量柠檬水味，简直美味到爆。虽然我不想偏心，但这柠檬水味绝对能排进我最爱的口味之一，和树莓或西瓜味并列。

I'll also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. I love the raspberry, I love the citrus flavor. Right now Element has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious. I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, which is raspberry or watermelon.

再说一次，我选不出唯一的最爱，我全都喜欢。如果你想试试 Element，可以去 drinkelement.com/huberman（拼写：drinklmnt.com/huberman），购买任意 Element 饮料包即可免费领取一份试用装。再次强调，是 drinkelement.com/huberman 领取免费试用装。你提到了冲动、攻击性以及犯罪概率。

Again, I can't pick just one flavor. I love them all. If you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/hubermanspelleddrinklmnt.com/huberman, to claim a free Element sample pack with a purchase of any Element drink mix. Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. You mentioned impulsivity, aggression, and the probability of committing a crime.

你有一些数据表明，存在能更广泛降低冲动性的方法。没错。对吧？我觉得大多数人并不觉得自己有冲动问题。但我要说，如果你曾因为别人拿起手机就跟着无意识地掏手机，那就是冲动。

You have some data that there are these ways of reducing impulsivity more broadly. Yep. Right? I don't think impulsivity is something that most people think they deal with. But I'll tell you, if you've ever found yourself picking up your phone just because everyone else did, that's impulsivity.

顺便说一句，我可能有点冤枉社交媒体了，我还放过了现代生活里同样甚至更毒的东西——短信。——是啊。——在飞机上我惊讶地发现，人们很难停止发短信。更神奇的是，我们能同时开启三四段对话，甚至跟同一个人在一条短信线程里来回跳三四件事。要是把这些转成真正的对话，

And by the way, I think perhaps I've been a little bit unfair to social media, and I've spared that equally or maybe even more pernicious thing of modern life, which is texting. -Yeah. -I mean, it's amazing to me on a plane how hard it is for people to disengage from texting. And it's also amazing to me how we can all get into, like, three or four conversations over text, or three or four conversations with one person within a text thread. I mean, if that were converted into, like, actual dialogue,

那简直疯了。

it'd be crazy.

你知道，就像在四段对话之间疯狂切换。那种聚会绝对乱套。对。但换成短信形式，我们居然照做不误。有研究说明短信对定向注意力有什么影响吗？

You know, it'd be like switching back and forth between four different conversations. I mean, that party is nuts. Right. But in the form of texting, it's like we're doing it. Are there any data on what texting is doing to directed attention?

我没看到专门针对短信的研究，但同样，我认为它肯定在消耗注意力。其实有你斯坦福的同事 Anthony Wagner 做过有趣的研究，对象是多媒体多任务者。那些一边发短信、一边回邮件、一边刷社交媒体、一边用电脑的人——同时使用多种媒体设备。这到底训练还是耗散注意力？那些研究很明确：它在耗散注意力。

I haven't seen any on it, but again, I would say it's got to be depleting. There were some interesting work, actually, I think by one of your colleagues at Stanford, Anthony Wagner, who did work on these multimedia multitaskers. So, people that text and are doing Email or social media and you know, something on the computer like you're using multiple media devices simultaneously. Does that train attention or does it deplete attention? And I think those studies is quite evident that it depletes attention.

它并没有训练人们的注意力，只是不断消耗。所以我想说，同时打理那么多对话，对定向注意力是极大的负担。再说一次，我并非完全反对智能手机，我自己也有。

It's not training people's attention. It's just depleting their attention. So I would say, yeah, I I, you know, managing all those conversations is gonna be very taxing of of directed attention. Again, I'm not somebody who's totally against smartphones. I have a smartphone.

我不上社交媒体，但短信发得很多。我尽量别总秒回。有时候我会告诉自己：这是我的时间，别急着回复。但这很难，非常难。

I don't do social media, but I do text a lot. I guess I try not to always be so fast. You know, I say sometimes I'm just gonna have my time and not always be so fast to respond. But it's hard. It's very difficult.

你得真正留心并刻意保护自己的注意力

You have to be really mindful and protective

关于你的定向注意力。如果人们对回复延迟有某种预期，而你偏离了这种预期，他们就会生气。——对。——用极客的话说就是，有时我秒回，有时几周才回，或者我觉得这种情况现在开始有点被外界正常化了，因为人们接收到的信息量实在太大。——几年前，这还被认为是失礼的。

of your directed attention. And people get angry if they have kind of an expectation of response latency, and then you depart from that. -Right. -Which is just nerd speak for, sometimes I'll text back fast, sometimes it will take me several weeks or I think that's starting to normalize a little bit out there because of the sheer volume of communication that people are getting. -A few years ago, that was considered rude.

——对。——我越来越多地听到

-Right. -I've heard more

一些讨论，我其实并不了解这些讨论的具体内容。但有一个非常受欢迎的播客，尤其是面向女性的，主持人前几天就在聊这个。有人发给我，说“哦，那种三周后才回短信的事正在变成常态”。我觉得有些人真的被短信轰炸了。我猜我们人类真的很擅长发明技术，然后又发现，哎呀，我们得稍微往回退一点。

and more discussions that I have no, you know, no real knowledge of what the discussions were. But there's a very popular podcast, in particular for women, where the host was talking about this the other day. Someone sent it to me, and they're like, Oh, it's the texting three weeks later thing is becoming a norm. I think some people are just bombarded with text messages. I guess our species is really good at creating technologies and then figuring out, like, darn, we need to backtrack a little bit.

——说得好，对。

-Good, right.

——因为所有那些程序，比如 Freedom，它会在设定的时间内关闭你电脑的网络。

-Because all the programs to, like the program Freedom, instance, which shuts down the Internet for a certain interval of time on your computer.

那很棒

That was

但几乎没人用它。是的。我认识的人里，以前用的现在也基本不用了。Freedom 的设计师们，请原谅我。

great. Hardly anyone uses it. Yeah. And hardly any of the people I know who used to use it use it anymore. Forgive me, Freedom designers.

但它就像慢慢消失了，因为文化在漂移——对。新人比如 Cal Newport，或者你没有社交媒体的你，或者我把社交媒体放在另一部手机上、一个月才回一条短信的我。——除非紧急。——对。——我们被视为怪人。

But it's like it starts to just disappear because the culture drifts in a -Right. New people like Cal Newport, or you who don't have social media, or me who put social media on a separate phone and takes a month to reply to a text. -Unless it's urgent. -Right. -We're considered the weirdos.

是的。所以这很难，但再说一次，你知道，我见过有人发邮件时会设自动回复，说“我不会很快回复”或者“我只在某个时间段回邮件”，我觉得这说得通，你知道，因为我们必须保护我们的定向注意力。如果我们一直被耗尽，就无法成为正常运作的人类。

Yeah. So it's hard, but again, it's You know, I've seen people that, like, on email where they'll have an auto reply that just says, I'm not gonna respond really quickly or I only respond to email, you know, at this time and this time, you know, and I think that makes sense, you know, again, because we have to protect our directed attention. We're just not gonna be good functioning humans if we're just constantly being depleted.

几年前我读过纽约大学 Wendy Suzuki 实验室的一项研究：那些每天做 13 分钟正念冥想的人——基本就是坐着或躺下，闭眼专注呼吸，注意力飘走时不断把它拉回到眉心位置——他们在记忆任务上表现提升了。但实际上也提到对睡眠有负面影响，尤其是如果太晚做。对我来说冥想一直像是一种专注训练。虽然它让人放松，因为你没在跑步也没在社交，但它在认知上很费力，因为你得不断把注意力拉回来。

I read a study from Wendy Suzuki's lab at NYU a few years ago that people that do thirteen minutes a day of mindfulness meditation, so basically sitting or lying down, closing one's eyes, focusing on their breathing, and constantly refocusing their attention as it drifts back to a location kind of like right in the middle of their forehead. They observed improvements in memory tasks. But actually, decrements in sleep were mentioned there, especially if they did it too late in the day. And meditation to me always seemed like a focusing exercise. And so while it's relaxing because you're not jogging or socially engaging, it's cognitively demanding because you have to constantly bring your attention back.

所以

So

多年来，我们一直把冥想当作一种重置。我认为冥想是专注训练，而不是重置。你说的在自然中散步才是一种重置。

for many years, we thought of meditation as a reset. I think of meditation as focus training, Not a reset. What you're talking about with nature walks is a reset.

重置。对。嗯。有趣的是，确实有一篇论文，Tang，我记不清她名字了，还有Michael Posner。他们研究了一些冥想结果，发现冥想后注意力有所改善，然后他们联系我，因为我当时在研究自然相关的东西，他们问我，你觉得机制一样吗？

Reset. Yeah. Mhmm. And it's interesting because, yeah, there was a paper, Tang, I can't remember her first name, and Michael Posner. They did some meditation results, and then they and they found these kind of improvements in attention after meditation and they're kind of contacting me because I was doing this nature stuff and they're asking me, do think it's the same mechanism?

我说，不，我觉得机制不一样，正如你所说，Andrew，冥想是非常专注的，需要大量定向注意力，对吧？而我说的在自然中则更像是完全不需要定向注意力，只是随意地神游、被动地注意。所以，尽管最终结果可能相似，我认为它们的机制非常不同。我觉得有趣的是，很多古老的冥想练习往往是在美丽的自然环境中进行的，我怀疑他们是不是早就知道在美丽的自然中冥想效果更好，因为虽然冥想需要定向注意力，但沉浸在美丽的自然中同时也能恢复定向注意力。

And I was saying, no, I don't think it's the same mechanism that that as you're saying, Andrew, that this meditation is very, very focused, lots of directed attention, right? Whereas what I'm talking about in nature is sort of like eliminating the need for any directed attention that it's all just kind of mind wandering and involuntary attention. So I think even though maybe you can get some of the same results at the end, I think they're very different mechanisms. What I do find fascinating is that I think in a lot of ancient meditation practices, often they try to do it in beautiful nature. And I wonder if they knew something that actually they could meditate better in this beautiful nature, because while they were using directed attention to meditate, being immersed in the beautiful nature was also sort of restoring directed attention at the same time.

所以我有时会想，如果把两者结合起来，可能会得到非常有趣的结果。但确实，在自然中——

So I do kind of wonder sometimes if maybe combining them, you could get some really interesting results. But exactly, you know, being a nature to

对我来说并不是一个冥想过程，而是一种更被动的认知过程。所以，我认为我们需要区分被动且恢复性的、被动但耗竭的。哪些属于哪一类应该很明显。然后还有一些可能是被动且恢复性的，但不仅仅是恢复。

me is not a meditative process. It's a much more passive kind of cognitive process. So, think we need to distinguish between passive and restorative, passive and depleting. And it should be obvious which things fall into which categories. And then there are things that are perhaps passive and restorative, but go beyond restorative.

它们甚至可能是被动、恢复性的，还能在你回到工作、回到对真正事情的专注注意力时提升认知。而一个可怕但可能真实的想法是，基于现实观察，被动且耗竭的活动，如果你长期重复，不仅会在当天或第二天削弱你后续投入定向注意力的能力，而且大脑中定向注意力的回路可能也会受到双向可塑性的影响。这是我长期着迷的一点。你知道，我们了解的每一个神经回路都具有可塑性。对。它需要专注、警觉和睡眠。

They might even be passive, restorative, and cognitive enhancing when you get back to work, back to focused attention on the real stuff. And then the scary thought, which is probably true, based on just real world observation, is that passive and depleting activities, when you repeat them over time, aren't just taking away your ability to engage directed attention later that day or the next day, but that over time, the circuitry for directed attention in the brain is probably subject to plasticity in both directions. This is something that I've long been obsessed You know, every neural circuit that we are aware of is available for plasticity. Yeah. It requires focus, it requires alertness, and it requires sleep.

这些是必要条件，对吧？但同样可能的是，专注的回路可以变强，所以你可以通过——对，我确实看到这一点。我做的专注工作越多，我就越擅长，能持续更久。我知道这里有个阈值。

Those are the requirements, right? But it's also possible that the circuits for focus can strengthen, so you can get better at focusing by Right. -I certainly see that. The more I do focused work, the better I get at it, the longer I can do it. I know there's a threshold there.

但如果我一段时间不做，确实可以恢复，但就像锻炼一样，最终你会开始萎缩。

But also if I take time away from it for a while, it gets, yes, I can replenish, but just like exercise, eventually you start to atrophy.

——对。

-Right.