如何清晰自信地表达 | 马特·亚伯拉罕斯

如果你与听众的需求不同步，那你就有麻烦了。

And if you're not in sync with what your audience needs, then you're in trouble.

我们大多数人都是创建一个信息，然后简单地传递给多个听众，认为因为我们传达出去了就是成功了。

Most of us create one message and just deliver it to multiple audiences, and think we've been successful because we got it out.

这种思维方式是错误的。

That's the wrong way to think about it.

如果你愿意的话，我们能否花几分钟探讨一些工具和实践，然后再回到一些理论？当然可以。

So if you're willing, could we just take a couple of minutes and explore some of the tools and practices, and then go back to some of the theory, and then Absolutely.

回到工具这个话题，我特别喜欢你说的这个练习——比如我指着马克杯，尽量在说‘斗牛犬’时不评判自己，因为这感觉就像巴特·辛普森做罗夏墨迹测试时不停念叨‘黄油手指、黄油手指、斗牛犬、斗牛犬、斗牛犬’的情景。

Back to the tools and I love this exercise you said of, like, I'll point to the mug, I'll just try not to judge myself when I say bulldog, because that just is kinda like where I'm like Bart Simpson doing the Rors Rorschach test, Butterfinger, Butterfinger, bulldog, bulldog, bulldog.

但这个练习有什么用呢？

But what is that exercise good for?

在什么情况下，人们可以且应该独自或与他人一起运用这个练习？

And when could and should somebody apply it on their own or with other people?

我用这个练习有两个目的。

That's an exercise that I use for two reasons.

我用它来展示我们在交流时会产生大量主观判断。

I use it to show that we have a tremendous amount of judgment that we make when we communicate.

因为如果你问别人：为什么把某物叫作非其本名这么困难？

Because if you ask somebody, Why is it so hard to call something something it's not?

他们会说：呃，因为这不习惯，或者我想让它比我想到的其他称呼更好。

They'll say, Well, that's not what I'm used to, or I want it to be better than something else I was thinking.

另一个用途是帮助阐明我们在面对挑战性情境时如何进行启发式思考。

The other thing that I use it for is to help elucidate how we heuristically think in these challenging situations.

所以每次在课堂上做这个练习时，我都会问：你们是否借助了某些工具来决定说什么？

So invariably, when I do this in my class, I'll say, Were you using any tools to help you figure out what to say?

人们会说：是的，我用了颜色分类法，或者像你案例中的犬种分类法。

And people say, Yeah, went in the category of colors, or in your case, the category of species of dog.

这些都是启发式方法。

These are heuristics.

我们的大脑正试图帮助我们。

Our brain is trying to help us.

启发式方法非常重要。

And heuristics are very important.

如果没有它们，我们就无法做出决策。

If we didn't have them, we wouldn't be able to make decisions.

但有时启发式方法会限制你的思维方式。

But sometimes a heuristic locks you into a way of thinking.

假设我们刚开完会，你转身问我：'嘿，马特，你觉得会议进行得怎么样？'

So let's imagine you and I come out of a meeting, and you turn to me and you say, Hey Matt, how do you think that meeting went?

我立刻会说：'安德鲁需要反馈'，然后我可以列举出所有出错的地方，以及我们本可以做得更好的方面。

I immediately say, Andrew wants feedback, and I can itemize all the things that went wrong, all the things we could have done better.

但如果我真的在倾听，没有被反馈的启发式方法所束缚，我可能会注意到你低着头。

But had I been really listening, not locked into that heuristic of feedback, I might have noticed that you were looking down.

你说话比平时更慢更轻。

You were speaking more slowly and softly than usual.

也许那一刻你需要的不是反馈，而是支持，因为你已经知道会议开得很糟糕。

Maybe what you wanted in that moment was not feedback, but what you wanted was support because you knew the meeting went bad.

如果我过早地固守某种启发式方法，却没有意识到自己被它束缚，就可能把我们的沟通引向不具建设性甚至有害的方向。

So if I lock into a heuristic too soon and not understand that I lock into that heuristic, I might take our communication in a direction that isn't productive or could be harmful.

我刚才描述的情况确实在我和一位同事之间发生过，我当时列举了我们所有做错的地方。

The situation I just described to you actually happened to me with a colleague, and I itemized all the things that we did wrong.

我花了六个月才修复这段关系，因为他根本不想听那些问题。

It took me six months to repair that relationship because he didn't want to hear what went wrong.

他心知肚明。

He knew.

他希望我在那一刻给予一些支持。

He wanted me to give some support in that moment.

这个练习旨在帮助我们理解，我们做了许多不必要的评判，并且陷入了一些启发式或模式中，这些模式阻碍我们专注当下并做出恰当反应。

So that exercise is to help us understand that we do a lot of judging that we don't need to do and that we have these heuristics or patterns that we get into that don't allow us to be present and respond to what's needed.

你能定义一下启发式吗？

Could you define heuristic?

我想我明白它的意思，不过——听起来你把启发式和模式当作同义词使用，或许可以为大家解释一下。

I believe I know what it means, but- So it sounds like you mentioned heuristic and pattern as kind of synonymous, but maybe just define it for people.

对我来说，启发式是一种工具，我们常常无意识地用它来减少特定情境中的不确定性。

So to me, a heuristic is a tool that we use, often unconsciously, to help us reduce the uncertainty in a particular situation.

举个例子，假设我在超市里想挑选最好的番茄酱或番茄沙司。

So for example, imagine I'm in the grocery store and I'm trying to pick out the best tomato sauce or the best ketchup.

我可能会用‘哪个最便宜’作为启发式标准。

I might use a heuristic of which is the cheapest.

某个品牌有多少种产品在售？

How many offerings from one brand are there?

那一定是最值得购买的品牌。

That must be the best brand to buy.

这些都是我们在不确定情境中使用的心理捷径。

So these are mental shortcuts that we use to help us in uncertain situations.

我想起一个故事，那时我还是个助理教授，也就是获得终身教职之前，我的第一个研究生——她现在已经是犹他大学自己实验室的杰出教授了，抱歉。

I'm recalling a story where when I was a junior professor, meaning before I had tenure, my first graduate student, who's now a phenomenal professor in her own lab at the University of Utah, excuse me.

当时我们在我的办公室讨论她第一篇手稿的相关内容。

We were in my office and we were talking about something related to her first manuscript.

然后我详细描述了我们该如何处理这项分析以及相关事项。

And I went on this long description of what we needed to do with the analysis and this and then.

她安静地坐着，然后对我说：你能说得更具体些吗？

She sat very quietly and then she said to me, Could you be more specific?

我当时心想，天哪，我刚刚滔滔不绝讲了差不多五分钟。

And I thought, Oh my goodness, I just spoke for like five minutes.

我觉得她的潜台词是：你到底在说什么？

And I think what she's asking is, What in the world are you saying?

没错。

Right.

这很可能就是她的真实想法。

Which is probably what she was asking.

她听到这段估计会忍俊不禁。

She's probably gonna chuckle when she hears this.

确实。

Right.

她总是能用这种绝妙的方式提出这类问题。

And she had this amazing way of asking questions like that.

比如她会说：再详细说说。

She would say, for instance, Tell me more.

是啊。

Yeah.

或者：接下来几周你具体希望我为这些实验做些什么？

Or, What exactly do you want me to do for these experiments in the next couple of weeks?

对。

Right.

然后她通常会提出更好的想法，就像所有优秀的研究生都会做的那样。

And then she'd usually tell me a better idea, as all great graduate students do.

对。

Right.

但我觉得这有点那个。

But I feel like that's a bit of this.

问题在于我当时带着一种默契流畅的预期视角来处理这件事，以为我们双方理解一致，但实际上并非如此。

It's that I was coming to it from the perspective of kind of a fluency of the sort of expectation that we both were on the same page and we weren't.

对。

Right.

不是因为我是教授而她是学生。

Not because I was the professor and she was the student.

实际上，她比我更接近数据，因为是她收集的数据。

Actually, she was closer to the data than I was because she collected the data.

对。

Right.

但这就是那种在一对一互动中你能发现并及时纠正的情况。

But that's the sort of interaction that one on one you can catch and you can course correct.

对。

Right.

但在公开演讲中，人们往往要等到下台后才意识到效果不佳，或是通过反馈得知表现不好。

But in public speaking, oftentimes people just get off stage and they either realize it went poorly or they get feedback that it went poorly.

我的博士后导师曾说，演讲后有人提问说明你讲得好。

My postdoc advisor once said, if you get questions after a talk, it means you did well.

没错，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

如果没人提问，说明他们只想赶紧让你下台。

If you don't, it means they just wanna get rid of you and have you go off stage.

所以现在当我演讲后收到问题时，我会觉得‘很好，太棒了’。

So now when I get questions after a talk, I'm like, okay, excellent.

这意味着你吸引了听众，他们有问题要问。

That means you engaged people, they have questions.

所以要注意这一点。

So take note of that.

如果有人提问，很可能说明你正中靶心。

If people have questions, it's very likely you bullseye it.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

你还强调如果我们陷入自我思考，就无法评估当下情况。

And you're highlighting that if we get into our heads, we're not able to assess what's going on in the moment.

很多沟通都是即时反应。

A lot of communication is responding.

所以我需要保持专注，观察听众的反应。

And so I need to be present enough to see how my audience is responding.

他们看起来困惑吗？

Are they looking confused?

他们看起来不高兴吗？

Do they look upset?

那我就能调整适应。

Then I can adjust and adapt.

所以我们必须充分投入当下才能及时应对，而提前做的准备工作能让我们准备得更充分。

So we have to be in that moment enough to be present so we can respond, and the preparation work we do in advance helps us be better prepared.

现在，关于你刚才提到的那个研究生例子，我认为她遇到的部分问题可能在于：当你传达信息时，只是列了一长串事项。而我们的大脑并不擅长记忆列表。

Now, would argue that in the example you just gave with your former graduate student, part of the issue that I think she might've been having is when you relayed the information, it was just a list or litany of things, And our brains aren't very good at remembering lists.

我常跟学生开玩笑说

I mean, I I always will joke with my students.

你去杂货店时，买几样东西就需要写备忘录了？

When you go to the grocery store, how many items do you need to buy before you have to write something down?

对我来说超过三样就得记下来。

For me, it's three.

我就是记不住列表类的内容。

I just can't remember much in lists.

如果你给信息提供结构框架，理解起来就会容易得多。

If you provide a structure to the information, it makes it much easier.

这能提升信息处理能力。

It increases processing ability.

所谓结构不过就是观点的逻辑连接。

So a structure is nothing more than a logical connection of ideas.

每位听众都见过结构化表达。

Everybody listening has seen structure.

如果你看过电视广告，大多数广告都遵循问题、解决方案、好处的结构。

If you've ever watched a television ad, most ads are in the structure of problem, solution, benefit.

世界上存在某个问题或挑战，产品或服务能改善它，而你以某种方式受益。

There's some issue or challenge in the world, the product or service makes it better, and you benefit in some way.

这就是一种结构。

That's a structure.

存在逻辑关联。

There's a logical connection.

这就像一个故事。

It's like a story.

有开头、中间和结尾，我们的大脑天生就适应这种结构。

It's a beginning, middle, and an end, and our brains are wired for that.

比起随机罗列事项，我们更容易理解故事化的表达。

We understand story better than just a random list of things.

我常和学生开玩笑说，项目符号会杀人。

I'll joke with my students, Bullets kill.

别在幻灯片上堆砌大量项目符号，这只会适得其反。

Don't put a lot of bullet points on a slide because you're not helping yourself.

所以我在想，如果你当初用更有逻辑的方式组织信息，那位研究生是否能更好理解？

So in that interaction you had with your graduate student, I wonder if she would have understood it better had you structured the information in a way that's logical.

用三个问题来构建框架可能效果会很好。

A great structure for that might have been three questions.

什么？

What?

那又怎样？

So what?

现在怎么办？

Now what?

这是我要你做的事。

Here's what I want you to do.

这就是为什么它很重要。

Here's why it's important.

以下是帮助你实现目标的后续步骤。

Here's the next steps to help you accomplish it.

突然间，我就更容易消化和理解这些信息了。

All of a sudden, it becomes easier for me to digest and understand.

所以结构对于有效传达信息至关重要。

So structure is critical to helping get messages across.

是的。

Yeah.

在实验室成立的头五年里，我发现与学生和博士后互动最有效的方式，是让他们站在我办公室的白板前，边讨论项目边写下内容。

Across those first five years of having my lab, I learned that the best way to interact with students and postdocs, the most effective way was to have them stand at the whiteboard in my office and write things down as we talked about a project.

他们写下的内容，我们最终会划掉一些，可能做些修改。

And the things they would write down, we would eventually cross some things out, maybe make some edits.

但那些就是我们所说的'待办事项'，他们将把这些带到下一阶段的实验中。

But those were the, as we called the do outs that they were gonna take to the next phase of experiments.

通过让他们掌控关键信息，他们也能打断我提问：'这里会发生什么？'

By putting them in control what the critical information was, they could also stop me and say like, What would happen here?

那是一种非常动态的互动。

So that's a very dynamic interaction.

这不是典型的讲座式互动，但我发现它在其他情境下效果也非常好。

It's not a typical lecture type interaction, but I've found that that works really well in other types of situations too.

是的。

Yeah.

在这种互动中，能做笔记的人可以就模糊之处提问，同时我能清楚了解他们的收获，以及我在哪些方面没讲到位，或者极少数情况下，成功传达了要点。

Where the person that can take notes, can ask questions about things that were unclear, but where I get a strong sense of what their takeaway was and also where I fell short, or perhaps in rare cases, succeeded in communicating what Right.

我当时正试图

I was trying to

我很欣赏你花时间进行这些能即时获得反馈的互动。

love that you are taking the time to have those interactions, where you get feedback in real time.

你可以将这些方法融入更正式或更大规模的交流场景中。

And there are things you can build into more formal or bigger types of communication situations.

我可以进行投票调查。

I can take polls.

我可以让人们结对合作，互相分享信息反馈。

I can have people partner or pair with each other and share some information back.

虚拟工具能让你实现多种功能。

Virtual tools allow you to do lots of things.

人们在交流过程中可以实时给出反应。

People can give reactions as you're communicating.

有多种方式能让你获得实时反馈，以便及时调整和适应。

There are ways to get feedback in real time that allow you to adjust and adapt.

首先，你必须在结构中构建这些机会。

But one, you have to build in those opportunities in the structure.

其次，你必须足够专注以留意正在发生的事情。

And two, you have to be present enough to pay attention to what's going on.

你建议人们录制自己的讲座然后回看这些视频吗？

Do you recommend people tape themselves giving lectures and then review those videos?

当然。

Absolutely.

我让所有

I make all of

学生作为他们工作的一部分，每当他们进行公开演讲时，无论是小组模拟、会议模拟还是演讲，都必须进行数字录制并观看三遍。

my students as part of the work that they do, they have, anytime they do a public presentation, it could be a panel simulation, a meeting simulation, a speech, they digitally record themselves and they have to watch it three times.

第一次只听声音，不看画面。

Once with sound only, no video.

第一次只看画面，不听声音。

Once with video only, no sound.

然后第三次音画同步观看。

And then once both together.

任何这样做的人都会注意到不同的细节，既有积极的也有消极的。

And anybody who does this will notice different things, both positive and negative.

我告诉所有人这就像去看牙医。

I tell everybody it's like going to the dentist.

没人喜欢去，但事后都会庆幸自己去了，因为你能看到很多并从中学习。

Nobody likes going, but everybody's really glad they've been because you you see so much and you learn.

我认识很多优秀的沟通导师。

And I I know many great communication teachers.

最好的老师就是观察自己的沟通方式。

The best teacher is watching yourself communicate.

我猜你已经观察过自己了。

I assume you've watched yourself.

当你观察自己的表现时，有学到什么吗？

Have you learned things when you watch what you see?

是的。

Yeah.

我会听有嘉宾参与的播客，也会听单人节目，试图找出可以改进的地方。

I I I will listen to podcasts with guests, and I do listen to solos to try and see where I can improve.

我会向一两个人寻求反馈，并始终尽力落实这些反馈。

I have one or two people who I seek feedback from, and I have always done my best to implement that feedback.

有些细节我不会具体分享，因为它们很微妙，我自己从未注意到，但结果证明非常有用。

I mean, I'm not gonna share what some of the things were because some of it was subtle, and I never would've observed in myself and then turned out to be very useful.

说到舞台、播客或任何形式的有效沟通，我觉得关键是要摆脱自我评判。

I mean, what when I think of effective communication on stage or in a podcast or in any form really, I feel like it's really about getting outside the self judgment.

没错。

Right.

同时，你必须与听众建立连接。

And at the same time, you have to be connected to your audience.

这在单人播客中尤其困难，我只是对着镜头说话，但我把它想象成教室里的观众。

I mean, this is especially difficult on podcasts where it's a solo podcast, I'm talking to a camera, but I just imagine it's an audience, like a classroom.

那是

That's

没错。

right.

然而当时至少没有人举手。

And yet hands aren't going up, at least not then.

当我们发布内容后，你会不时看到评论和批评，那时人们才会参与。

They go up when we post it and you see the comments and critiques from time to time as well.

这些反馈非常有用。

And those are very useful.

我的意思是，从课堂教学、大小讲座到参与同行评审的科研工作，这些经历会让你变得非常坚韧。

I mean, coming from the landscape of teaching in the classroom, large lectures, small lectures, and doing peer reviewed science, you get a very thick skin.

是的。

Yes.

但没有什么能真正让你准备好面对公众。

And yet nothing quite prepares you for being public facing.

现在每个人都在面对公众，除非他们关闭评论区。

And now everybody's public facing, unless they block their comments section.

我是说，现在几乎所有人都在面对公众——从妈妈晒给孩子做的蛋糕，到孩子发的生日派对照片。

I mean, most everybody out there, the mom posting the cake she made for her kids and the kid posting birthday party photo that everybody's public facing now.

对。

Right.

所以我认为这让人变得更坚强，但对很多人来说，也可能造成伤害。

And so I think it gives people a thicker skin, but I think for a lot of people, can be damaging for them.

我很欣赏你花时间反思并寻求反馈。

I like though that you are taking the time to reflect and seek feedback.

我常说提升沟通能力只有三个方法：重复、反思和反馈。

I often say the only way you get better at communication is three things, repetition, reflection, and feedback.

你必须练习。

You gotta practice.

没有人能仅靠思考就提升沟通能力。

Nobody has ever thought their way to better communication.

你必须付诸实践。

You have to do it.

你必须进行反思。

You have to reflect.

你知道那个关于疯狂的定义吗？就是重复做相同的事却期待不同结果——这正是很多人的沟通方式。

You know, that definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, that's how many people communicate.

每晚睡前，我都会花一分钟写下当天沟通中做得好与不好的地方。

Every night before I go to bed, I spend one minute writing down what went well and what didn't go well in my communication that day.

每周日，我会花五分钟回顾过去一周，并为接下来一周制定计划。

And every Sunday, I spend five minutes going back over the previous week, and I make a plan for the following week.

我并非说自己是个沟通高手，但我确信因为这个持续多年的习惯，我的沟通能力确实得到了提升。

I'm not saying I'm a great communicator, but I certainly believe I'm a better communicator because I've been doing that practice for years.

你每周都这样做。

You do that every week.

每天都做。

Every day.

每一天。

Every day.

每一天。

Every day.

我有一本日记。

I have a journal.

我会记下一两件我认为顺利的事情和一两件不顺利的事情，然后在周日挑选一件回顾，这对我很有帮助。

I write down one or two things that I thought went well and one or two things I thought didn't go well, and then I pick one on a Sunday, I review them, and it it has helped me.

最后一步是获取反馈。

And then the final step in that is feedback.

你需要有值得信赖的人能给你诚实的反馈。

You have to have trusted others who can give you honest feedback.

不过，是的，这个反思习惯我已经坚持很久了。

But, yeah, that reflection practice I've been doing for a long time.

多久了？

How long?

大概是从我孩子出生后开始的，所以至少有十五、十六年了。

Probably, I think it was after my kids were, so probably at least fifteen, sixteen years.

太棒了。

Awesome.

这就是为什么你能成为斯坦福教授。

Well, this is why you're a Stanford professor.

这是在斯坦福最令人愉悦的事情之一。

This is one of the great pleasures of being at Stanford.

我是说，虽然我们现在不在斯坦福，但我必须承认，虽然地球上还有其他优秀的大学，但我热爱那里，因为每一位教职员工和学生——说实话学生们才是那里的明星——都对自己的专业如此投入。

I mean, we're not at Stanford at this moment, but I have to say, I mean, are other great universities on the planet, but I love it because everybody who's on the faculty there, and the students, I mean, students are really the phenoms of the place, let's be honest, but is so committed to their craft.

是啊。

Yeah.

其他地方也是如此，但斯坦福是我亲身体验过的，它真的太棒了。

Also true elsewhere, but since Stanford's the experience I know, it's it's just so awesome.

你教授沟通技巧，同时每天都在记录自己的沟通情况，并在周末进行复盘。

You teach communication and you're taking notes on your own communication every day and reviewing at the end of the week.

没错。

Correct.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

是的，我认为反馈很有价值。

Yeah, I think feedback is great.

我认为应该对反馈进行选择性过滤

I think that being a selective filter for feedback

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yes.

这很好。

Is great.

我确实喜欢听其他讲座。

I do like to listen to other lectures.

我听了很多讲座。

I listen to a lot of Yeah.

这些讲座可能其他人会觉得内容或表达方式很无聊。

Lectures that perhaps other people would find boring based on content or delivery.

但我从中学习到很多

And I learn a lot from

人们的风格。

people's styles.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道，从完全不同领域的沟通风格中汲取灵感也很有趣。

You know, it's also interesting to pull from the communication styles of people in really distant genres.

我就不具体提了，但如果你观察不同娱乐和传播领域，有些人更注重肢体语言。

I won't mention some of these, but, you know, if you look at different fields of entertainment and communication, some people use more physicality.

没错。

Yeah.

有些人则比较刻板。

Some people are are more rigid.

我认为探索这些不同的领域能学到很多东西。

I think there's a lot to be learned from exploring these other landscapes.

我百分之百同意。

I 100% agree.

我我非常幸运。

I I'm very fortunate.

在我主持的播客节目中，我有幸采访了世界上一些最优秀的沟通者。不仅能引导他们深入思考自己的技艺，还能亲眼目睹他们的实践过程，观察人们做事的不同方式，这实在是种享受。

The the podcast I host, I get to interview some of the world's best communicators, and it is such a treat to not only engage them in thinking through their craft, but seeing them do it and observing the different ways people do things.

而且这个人不一定要多有名气，也不需要有很高的知名度。

I and and it doesn't have to be somebody who's famous or or has a whole bunch of notoriety.

我儿子的一位幼儿园老师教会了我许多：如何在压力下保持冷静，如何监控、管理和促进互动。

One of my son's kindergarten teachers taught me so much about how to stay calm under pressure, how to monitor and manage and facilitate interaction.

我们只需要留心观察并保持开放心态。

We just have to pay attention to it and be open to it.

不是为了模仿，而是为了获取灵感，看看别人是怎么做的。

Not so that we copy, but so that we get ideas and we see how people do things.

你分解复杂生物过程的方式，在我看来非常了不起，因为你让它变得如此易于理解。

The way you break down complex biological processes, I find amazing in terms of the accessibility that you bring to it.

这种技能，任何编程人员都可以用来向终端用户解释系统运作原理。

That's a skill that somebody who is programming, some programmer somewhere could use to explain to their end users how this works.

我们需要借鉴并理解他人的做法。

We need to borrow and understand what people do.

我们常常固守自己的方式，而观察他人，我认为是最好的学习途径。

We get caught up in our own way of doing it, and watching others, I think, is a best way to do it.

很久以前我就意识到，当体内存在一定能量时——我们称之为自主唤醒、交感张力，或者人们常说的'战或逃'反应。

Long ago, I realized that when there's a certain amount of energy in the body, what we call autonomic arousal, sympathetic tone, whatever, people say fight or flight.

但当体内能量过高时——比如准备演讲或处于陌生环境时（不一定是在舞台上），允许自己走动、踱步、做手势，有助于释放部分能量，这比僵坐着试图把所有信息都从嘴里挤出来要轻松得多。

But when there's a lot of energy in the body, which is often the case when we're going to give a talk or we're in a novel situation, doesn't have to be on stage, that allowing oneself to physically move, to walk to pace, to gesticulate helps dispel some of that energy and makes it a lot easier to deliver the information than we're one to just sit really still and try and funnel all that through woman's mouth.

对吧？

Right?

当我们平静放松时，可以后靠坐着，只需微微动动嘴唇、眨眨眼睛，轻轻晃动头部。

When we're calm and relax, we can sit back and just move our mouth and our eyes a little bit and our head a little bit.

我注意到最优秀的公众演说家都懂得何时该踱步，何时该站定。

So I've seen that some of the best public speakers know when to pace, know when to stand rigid.

这可能是经过排练的，我不确定，但在那些时刻他们并没有违背自己的自然倾向。

And it may be rehearsed, I don't know, but they're not running against their natural tendency in those moments.

就像有位神经科学家，他其实之前就做客过这个播客节目。

And like there's one neuroscientist, he's actually been a guest on this podcast before.

我就不点名是谁让他难堪了。

I won't embarrass him by saying who it is.

他拥有惊人的精神活力和能量。

And he has so much mental vigor and energy.

我第一次看他演讲是在哈佛医学院，为一个基金会的五十周年庆典。

And the first time I saw him give a talk was actually at Harvard Medical School for the fiftieth anniversary of a foundation.

他走上台，抓起麦克风，就这样开始了演讲。

And he got up there, and he grabbed the microphone, and he gave the talk like this.

我当时心想，他怕是要把麦克风给吞下去了。

And I thought to myself, he's gonna eat the microphone.

他真的要把麦克风吃掉了。

He's gonna eat the microphone.

结果那场演讲精彩绝伦。

And he gave the most spectacular talk.

他把所有能量都倾注到了那个麦克风里。

And he was funneling all his energy into that microphone.

对。

Right.

我意识到这家伙完全没动，但我当时觉得他随时会从那东西上狠狠咬下一口，这想法很合理。

I realized this guy isn't moving at all, but I thought it was totally reasonable that at some point he was just gonna take a huge chunk out of the thing.

当然他并没有这么做。

And of course he didn't.

我当时想，哇，他把我们所有人都带到了那个特定地点。

I thought, wow, he brought us all to that one location.

显然他是个经验丰富、沟通技巧高超的人，同时也是那个领域的专家。

Now, clearly he's very experienced and skilled communicator, but he's also an expert in that topic.

这是我常提醒那些有舞台恐惧症的学生和博士后的话——在你们讨论的话题上，你绝对是房间里至少前三的专家。

And this is the thing that I always would remind my students and postdocs who had some understandable stage fright, which is there's no way that you aren't among at least the top three people in the room in terms of the knowledge of what you're talking about.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？

Right?

你很可能就是最懂行的人，虽然现场可能有其他专家，这确实会让人有点紧张。

Like probably have the most knowledge, but maybe someone else is an expert there, which can be a little scary.

但至少你们是同一水平的。

But at least sort of their peer.

所以要提醒自己：在大多数公开演讲场合里，你就是相关领域的顶尖专家之一。

So to remind oneself that in most situations where we're public speaking, you're among the top experts in that.

至少相对于听众而言，你在这份材料上投入的时间是最多的。

You spent the most time with the material, at least compared to the audience.

嗯，我想补充一点，通常当我们处于那些情境时，观众其实是希望从我们这里学到东西的。

Well, and I would add to that, that often when we're in those situations, the audience actually wants to learn from us.

他们到场是因为想从我们这里获取价值。

They're there because they wanna take value from us.

他们不是来批评、评判或评价的，尽管这种情况也可能发生。

They're not there to critique and judge and evaluate, although that can happen.

人们不喜欢看别人失败和挣扎。

People don't like watching people fail and flail.

我们希望能获得一些价值。

We we wanna get some value.

如果你提醒自己'我能带来价值，而观众正需要这些价值'，这就能降低一些紧张感。

And if you remind yourself that I have value to bring, and the audience wants that value, that can reduce some of the temperature of that.

关于肢体动作，我认为适当的动作很棒。

With regard to movement, I think movement is great.

你只是不希望它分散注意力。

You just don't want it to be distracting.

所以关于动作有一些原则或理念。

So there's some rules or ideas around movement.

在过渡时适当地移动。

So move when appropriate during transitions.

单口喜剧演员有一条他们尽量遵循的规则：永远不要在抖包袱时走动。

Standup comedians have a rule that they try to follow, is you never wanna walk during the punchline.

你要稳稳地抛出笑点。

You wanna land the punchline.

我们每个人在交流时，都会有妙语连珠的时刻。

All of us, when we communicate, we have punchlines.

我们总有些真正希望传达的重点内容。

We have things that really we want to have land.

说到重点时要保持静止。

Stand still during that.

但在铺垫阶段，可以左右移动身体。

But as you're doing the setup, move side to side.

开场时向前迈步靠近观众。

When you start, come in, move forward.

肢体动作既能缓解紧张情绪，也能帮助观众区分内容主次。

So movement can help you with that anxiety, but it also can help your audience understand what's important and what's not important.

比如当我转换话题时，通过身体移动或转身的动作，就能向你们传递'我们要进入下一个环节'的信号。

So if I'm transitioning from one point to the next and I physically move or I turn my body at the table if I'm seated, that signals information to you that's helpful for you to know we're moving from one place to the next.

所以要让这种移动需求变得有目的性。

So use this need to move in a purposeful way.

我原来没意识到喜剧演员从不在移动时说笑点，现在想想确实很有道理。

I didn't realize that comedians don't deliver the punchline while moving, but now that makes perfect sense.

没错。

Right.

因为那样会分散观众注意力。

Because you're distracting your audience.

就连经常走动的克里斯·洛克，在抖包袱时也会突然站定。

Even Chris Rock, who moves a lot, will sometimes stop during the punchline.

我们早就知道有许多方法可以改善睡眠，包括服用苏糖酸镁、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸等成分，以及藏红花和缬草根这类不太为人熟知的成分。

We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep, And that includes things that we can take things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser known things like saffron and valerian root.

这些都是经过临床验证的成分，能帮助你更快入睡、保持睡眠状态，并醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。

These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.

我很高兴地宣布，我们的长期赞助商AG1刚刚推出了一款名为AGZ的新产品，这是一种夜间饮品，旨在帮助你获得更好的睡眠，让你醒来时感觉精力充沛。

I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor AG1 just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed.

过去几年里，我一直与AG1团队合作，共同研发这款全新的AGZ配方。

Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.

它以最完美的比例混合了多种最佳助眠成分，只需轻松饮用即可。

It has the best sleep supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy to drink mix.

这彻底解决了在众多助眠补充剂中艰难选择、还要研究合适剂量的复杂问题。

This removes all the complexity of trying to forge the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you.

据我所知，AGZ是市面上最全面的睡眠补充剂。

AGZ is to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.

我通常在睡前30到60分钟服用它。

I take it thirty to sixty minutes before sleep.

顺便说一句，它的味道很棒。

It's delicious by the way.

它显著提高了我的睡眠质量和深度。

And it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.

我之所以知道这一点，既来自我的主观睡眠感受，也因为我会追踪自己的睡眠数据。

I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep.

我期待每个人都能尝试这款全新的AGZ配方，享受更好睡眠带来的益处。

I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep.

AGZ提供巧克力、薄荷巧克力及混合莓果三种口味。

AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors.

正如我之前提到的，它们都非常美味。

And as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious.

这三款中我最喜欢的是薄荷巧克力，不过其实我都挺喜欢的。

My favorite of the three has to be, I think chocolate mint, but I really like them all.

若想尝试AGZ，请访问drinkagz.com/huberman获取专属优惠。

If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.

再次提醒，网址是drinkagz.com/huberman。

Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.

本期节目由Juve赞助播出。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Juve.

Juve生产医疗级红光治疗设备。

Juve makes medical grade red light therapy devices.

在本播客中我反复强调过，光线对人体机能有着惊人的影响力。

Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.

除阳光外，红光与近红外光源已被证实能改善细胞和器官健康的多个方面，包括加速肌肉恢复、促进皮肤健康与伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减轻疼痛炎症，甚至增强线粒体功能和改善视力。

Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function and improving vision itself.

Juve设备的独特之处在于采用临床验证的波长组合——特定比例的红光与近红外光协同作用，能触发最佳的细胞适应性变化，因此成为我的首选红光治疗设备。

What sets Juve lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.

我个人每周使用Juve全身光疗面板三到四次，便携式设备则在家和旅行时都会使用。

Personally, I use the Juve whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Juve handheld light both at home and when I travel.

目前Juve正在举行年度最大促销活动。

Right now, Juve is having their biggest sale of the year.

从现在到2025年12月1日，在Juve设备的黑色星期五促销期间，精选产品最高可节省1000美元。

From now through 12/01/2025, you can save up to $1,000 on select Juve devices during their Black Friday sale.

只需访问juve.com/huberman。

Just go to juve.com/huberman.

网址是j00vv.com/huberman。

That's j00vv.com/huberman.

部分商品不参与活动。

Some exclusions apply.

我想知道你是否在课堂上观察到，社交媒体和其他新型内容形式正在改变人们对事物吸引力的期待标准。

I wonder if you've observed in the classroom that social media and other newer forms of content are changing people's expectation of how engaging something should be.

因为社交媒体的入门门槛非常低。

Because the on ramp to social media is a very fast one.

我从未见过任何事物能如此迅速地吸引人们的注意力——除非是看到某些令人不安的画面，但没人愿意看到那些。

I've never observed anything that brings people to focus so quickly, unless it's seeing something really disturbing, which nobody wants to see.

但如果你突然看到两辆车相撞，你会立刻全神贯注。

But if you suddenly see two cars crashing over, you're completely focused on that.

你不会再回到之前在做的事情上。

You're not gonna go back to what you were doing.

但是

But

抛开负面事件和创伤性事件不谈，社交媒体有着异常顺畅且快速的注意力聚焦通道，能立刻把你锁定在信息茧房里。

setting aside bad events, traumatic events, social media has an incredibly smooth and fast on ramp to a focal point, which has got you in the box.

没错。

Yeah.

书籍通常不会为人们做到这一点。

A book doesn't typically do that for people.

没错。

Right.

那么根据你观察到的，当前人们对内容吸引力的期待发生了什么变化？

So what's happening now in terms of what you observe with people's audience's expectation of how engaging something

是的，我看到这体现在几个方面。

needs Yeah, so I see this play out in a couple ways.

首先，当你考虑多代同堂的职场或不同世代共处的环境时。

One, when you think about a multigenerational workforce or a place where multi generations are together.

像我们这样年纪的人——虽然我比你年长——期待人际关系和沟通以某种特定方式展开。

People of our vintage, although I'm older than you are, expect relationships and communication to unfold in a certain way.

而我认为年轻一代期望事情能更快、更具事务性。

And I think younger generations expect things to be quicker and more transactional.

当我们相遇时，这种差异可能导致误解甚至冲突。

And when we come together, that can breed misunderstanding and sometimes conflict.

所以我观察到这种现象，觉得非常有趣。

So I see it play out there and I find it really interesting.

我尝试教导我的学生要理解人们建立联系的方式，以及他们接收信息的习惯。

And I try to coach the students I have that they have to be appreciative of the ways in which people connect, and the ways in which people expect information to come in.

你知道，如果你只是不停地给我发短信，而我其实希望你打电话让我听到你的声音，这就会产生问题。

You know, if you're just going to keep texting me things, and I actually want you to pick up the phone so I can hear it in your own voice, that's going to cause some issues.

所以我们必须理解他人有各自不同的信息接收方式。

So we have to appreciate that others have different ways of taking in information.

我发现与我交流的许多年轻学生很难完成我们在建立关系和信任初期必须做的一些工作，因为他们期望事情能快速发生或已经习惯了快节奏。

I find that many of the younger students that I communicate with, it's hard for them to do some of the initial work that we have to do in relationship building, trust building, just because they expect things or are used to things happening really fast.

很多沟通和连接，至少在初期，都需要时间。

And a lot of communication, a lot of connection, at least at first, takes time.

所以帮助人们理解前期投入的时间可以带来后期令人兴奋且深入的连接是很重要的。

So it's helping people appreciate the time spent upfront can lead to the exciting and in-depth connection that comes later.

所以这确实在改变。

So it is changing for sure.

在我们谈话前我一直在思考，应该给人们什么建议才能让他们在陌生环境中，无论是在台上还是台下，都能更自在地沟通。

I was trying to think before our conversation, what would be the one piece of advice to give people so that they are more at ease with communicating in novel environments, on stage or off stage.

我脑海中突然闪现的建议是：对人友善。

And what popped to mind for me was be friendly with people.

我天生就比较友善。

I'm naturally pretty friendly.

比如买咖啡时，我会问'今天过得怎么样？'

Like if I'm getting a coffee, I'll be like, how's your day going?

或者说，我会这样问。

Or like, I will ask that.

而且我是真心好奇'你今天过得怎么样？'

And I'm genuinely curious, how's your day going?

现在很少有人会说'今天糟透了'。

Now it's rare that somebody says like today sucks.

偶尔确实有人会这么说。

Occasionally they do.

通常他们会说，哦，还不错。

Usually they say, oh, it's pretty good.

比如，你最近怎么样？

Like, how are you doing?

但在优步车里时，我发现自己经常和人聊天。

But in an Uber, for instance, I often find myself in conversation with people.

对我来说交谈是很自然的事。

Like conversation is pretty fluid for me.

我意识到对其他人来说并非如此。

I realize for other people, it's not.

人们可能不信，但我其实非常内向。

People won't believe this, but I'm actually very introverted.

我经常独处，但我喜欢和人相处，还算友善，他们也对我很友好。

I spend a lot of time by myself, but I like people, and I'm reasonably friendly, and they're friendly with me.

所以我认为友善能帮助你提升沟通能力。

So I think being friendly helps you get good at communication.

是啊。

Yeah.

你不这么觉得吗？

Wouldn't you say?

没错，完全同意。

Yeah, absolutely.

我对这个问题的答案会是：保持好奇心。

My answer to that question would be curiosity.

以好奇心为引导。

Lead with curiosity.

提出问题，观察事物，指出它们。

Ask questions, observe things, point them out.

很多人讨厌闲聊，因为他们不知道该如何进行。

A lot of people hate small talk, because they don't know how to do it.

但如果你以好奇心为引导，提出问题并观察，我认为这样能让交流更流畅，让人感到更自在。

But if you lead with curiosity, if you ask a question and you observe, that's where I think we can can, one, make it move forward in a way that's more fluid and more comfortable for people.

坦率地说，人们在谈论自己时最放松。

And quite frankly, people are most at ease talking about themselves.

所以如果你能让人们谈论对他们重要的事情。

And so if you can get people talking about something that's important to them.

然后，你知道，对话背后有一整套科学，研究对话的人会关注话轮转换。

And then, you know, there's there's a whole science behind conversation, and people who study conversation look at turn taking.

因为仔细想想，对话就是轮流发言。

Because if you think about it, conversation is just taking turns.

有些话轮是支持性的，你说些什么，我支持你说的内容。

There are turns that are supportive, where you say something and I support what you say.

比如你可能会说，嘿，马特。

So you might say, hey, Matt.

我刚从毛伊岛回来。

I just got back from Maui.

我可以说，哦，太棒了。

And I could say, Oh, that's great.

你住在哪里？

Where'd you stay?

你做了什么？

What did you do?

或者我可以说，这是另一种类型的转换，即话题切换。

Or I could say, which is the other type of turn, which is switching.

我可以说，哦，我刚从哥斯达黎加回来。

I could say, Oh, I just got back from Costa Rica.

而好的对话需要两者兼备。

And a good conversation does both.

保持好奇心，然后管理话题切换并支持话轮转换，不仅能让对话深入发展，还能让你在信任建立和关系发展方面变得更加亲密。

So being curious and then managing the switching and supporting turns allow for that conversation not only to develop, but it allows you to get closer and more intimate, if you will, that is closer in terms of trust building and the relationship you have.

是啊。

Yeah.

在洛杉矶时，我几乎每次都会问优步司机他们来自哪里，因为他们常常有口音而我听不出来。

Almost always in Los Angeles, I ask my Uber driver where they're from because oftentimes it seems they have accents and I can't place the accent.

几乎每次我都能根据他们的族裔发现一家很棒的餐厅。

And almost always I learn about a great restaurant based on their ethnicity.

因此一次愉快的优步乘车经历，让我找到了我认为洛杉矶最棒的亚美尼亚餐厅。

I found what I think is the best Armenian restaurant in Los Angeles as a consequence of a great Uber ride.

所以没错，以好奇心为先导。

So yeah, leading with curiosity.

我不会直接问'最好的餐厅在哪里'。

I don't say where's the best restaurant.

我觉得这似乎不可避免地会引向食物这个话题。

I think it inevitably leads to food, it seems.

狗是食物。

Dogs are food.

我对叙事中的线性与非线性格外好奇。

I'm curious about linearity versus nonlinearities in storytelling.

有些人的风格能同时兼顾多个方面。

Some people have a style where they can spin a lot of plates simultaneously.

我能想象那种场景。

I imagine it.

他们可以先开启一个话题，或许再展开几个其他话题。

They can start one thread, maybe open up a couple other threads.

有些人采用非常线性的叙事方式。

Some people have a very linear style.

有些人不会提及他们之前说过的话。

Some people won't reference things they said earlier.

有些人则会不断引用他们之前的言论。

Some people will constantly reference things they said earlier.

我想这取决于具体情况。

I suppose it depends.

但一般来说，如果想传达信息，什么方式最好呢？

But in general, if one is trying to communicate information, what's best?

从学习者获取信息的角度来看。

From the standpoint of people learning the information.

作为一名教师，一个试图向人们传递重要信息的人，我认为采用线性方法清晰地奠定基础并逐步构建，可能是帮助人们真正理解的最佳方式。

So as a teacher, as somebody who's trying to convey information that's important to people, I believe a linear approach that clearly lays out the foundations and builds is probably best to help people really understand.

在教育过程中，你往往是在搭建层次分明的脚手架，这自然导向一种线性方法。

Often in educating, you're layering your scaffolding, and that leads to a linear approach.

话虽如此，那种更具探索性的方法，包含多种路径的方式，往往更能吸引人，也同样可以取得成功。

That said, the more spurious approach, the approach that has lots of different avenues, can be much more engaging and can also be successful.

实际上并不需要非此即彼。

It really doesn't have to be either or.

我认为你可以采用高层次的线性视角带领听众完成这段旅程，但在不同节点上，你可以分支出一些有趣的信息点。

I think you can have a high level linear view that you're taking your audience on that journey, but at different points, you can branch off and share some interesting information.

我觉得优秀的演讲者就像出色的导游，事实上我人生中确实曾当过导游。

I see being a good speaker as like being a good tour guide, and I actually was a tour guide at one point in my life.

好的导游会非常出色地设定行程预期。

A good tour guide does a really nice job of setting expectations of where you're going.

如果不知道目的地在哪里，大多数人都不愿意参加旅行。

Most people won't go on the tour if they don't know where they're going.

如果我突然出现说'我是你的导游，我们走吧'，你可能会说'我都不知道要去哪儿'。

If I showed up and said, I'm your tour guide, let's go, You might say, I don't know where we're going.

但如果我说'嘿，我们要做这个和那个，不会做那些'，你就能放松心情，安心跟我走。

But if I say, hey, we're gonna do this and this, and we're not gonna do that, then you can relax and feel comfortable and come with me.

我会在每个节点都告诉你我们将前往下一站。

And I let you know at each point where we're moving to the next place.

但沿途我们可以徜徉，可以闲逛，可以去探索一些事物再回来。

But along the way, we can meander, we can wander, we can go check out some things and come back.

只要人们有方向感，并且所有内容都能构成一个更大的叙事框架，我认为你可以灵活运用这两种方式。

So as long as people have directionality and everything fits as a larger narrative, I think you can play with either of these.

但在严格的教育方面，我们有充分证据表明，采用循序渐进、搭建框架的线性方法才是最有效的。

But when it comes to strict education, I think we've got good evidence that a linear approach that scaffolds is really what's most helpful.

你认为如果人们想提高沟通能力，他们应该练习当导游吗？

Do you think that if people wanna get better at communication, they should practice being a tour guide?

我认为应该采用这种思维模式：嘿，就像导游一样带你了解我的内容素材。

I think adopting that mindset that, hey, taking you through my material, I'm like a tour guide.

导游会怎么解释这个？

How would a tour guide explain this?

他们会在开始时进行介绍，设定预期。

They would introduce at the beginning, set expectations.

他们会确保你理解为什么我们要从一个地方转移到下一个地方。

They'd make sure that you understand why we're moving from one place to the next.

结束时，他们真心希望你能带走有价值的东西。

And when you're done, they really want you to take something away of value.

我是说，大多数旅行团最后都会带游客去礼品店。

I mean, most tour tours end up in the gift shop.

对吧？

Right?

你给听众的礼物应该是他们能带走并付诸实践的东西。

Your gift to tell your audience is something they can take away and do something with.

所以我认为使用这个类比，用这种视角来看待你的工作会非常有帮助。

So I think using that analogy, seeing what your job is through those that lens can be really helpful.

我回想起小学时，老师让我们带一件对自己很重要的物品，然后孩子们要在教室前面展示。

I'm remembering back to grade school where we were asked to bring an object that was really important to us, and then kids would get up in front of the classroom.

是啊。

Yeah.

当然，这对孩子们来说是多么美好的一个练习啊。

And of course, what a what a beautiful exercise for kids to Yeah.

参与其中，因为他们自然比任何人都更了解那件物品。

Partake in, because, of course they know more about that object than anybody.

但我记得看到或听到不同的表现风格。

But I remember seeing or hearing different styles.

有些人会直接说，这是我的某某东西。

Some people get in there and be like, This is my whatever.

我的变形金刚，他们真的能放得开。

My transformer, and they're really out there with her.

这是我的金鱼，你知道的。

This is you know, my goldfish.

我养过几条金鱼。

I have some for a goldfish.

偶尔——其实也不算偶尔——会遇到一个孩子说，呃，这是我的笔，然后你期待他继续说下去，但他就是很不自在

And then occasionally not so occasionally, you get this kid that would say, well, this is my pen, and then and then you're like and you're like to speak up, and then and and they're just not comfortable

没错。

Right.

分享他们的

Sharing their

对。

Right.

他们显然对这个物品及其重要性了如指掌。

Their clearly intimate knowledge about this object and why it's important.

我是说，你能明显感觉到他们...他们很封闭。

They I mean, you could just tell, like, they're they're closed up.

没错。

Right.

所以你让他们大声点说，他们就会提高音量——但我觉得很多人都是这样。

And so you tell them to speak louder and then they'd speak louder, but I think that's a lot of people.

他们就是不太习惯把自己的想法大声表达出来。

Like they're just not comfortable projecting their thoughts out into the room.

所谓的'解决方案'是什么？或者说我们如何为这些人创造表达空间？

What is the quote unquote solution, or how do we make space for these people?

我说这些不是出于政治正确，而是真心认为这些人掌握着大量有价值的知识。

I'm not saying this for like politically correct reasons, but I wholeheartedly believe that these people harbor tons of useful knowledge.

噢，当然。

Oh, absolutely.

也许他们想分享这些知识，只是当前场合不适合他们。

Maybe they want to get that knowledge out, but maybe that's just not the medium for them.

也许他们更擅长写作，或者就是不想分享自己最喜欢的物品。

Maybe they write, or maybe they just don't wanna share their favorite object.

所以我确信你遇到过这类人。

So I'm I'm sure you encounter people like this.

哦，完全同意。

Oh, absolutely.

但鉴于他们即将从事的职业或工作领域，被告知必须擅长在众人面前演讲。

But by virtue of the fact that they're going into a particular job or or line of work that they they're told they have to get good at speaking to a whole room.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得当人们说'你必须在这方面做得更好'时，这很不幸。

And I think that's unfortunate when people say you must be better at this.

沟通方式多种多样，每个人都应该找到适合自己的途径。

There are lots of ways to communicate, and everybody should find a vehicle in a way that's helpful for them.

有些岗位确实需要特定类型的沟通能力。

There are some roles that require certain types of communication.

如果这让你感到不适，或许可以考虑换个岗位。

And if that isn't something you're comfortable with, maybe you look at a different role.

但我相信我们都能学习和提升沟通技巧。

But I believe we can all learn and develop our communication skills.

我职业生涯的大部分时间都在帮助人们更自如自信地公开演讲，克服相关焦虑，让人们明白沟通方式其实有很多。

I've spent much of my career helping people feel more comfortable and confident speaking in front of others, working on anxiety that goes around it, Helping people to see that there are lots of ways to communicate.

或许我不必举着这个物件让焦点集中在我和物件上。

Maybe I don't have to hold this object up and make it about me and my object.

我可以讲述关于这个物件的故事，或者我是如何得到它的经历。

Maybe I tell a story about the object, or I tell a story about how I came to have the object.

这样重点就不是我，而是故事本身了。

So it's less about me and it's more about the story.

如果我们能让人们有时与恐惧本身保持距离，并让他人参与进来，效果会非常好。

If we can get people to distance themselves sometimes from the fear itself and get others engaged, it can work really well.

我曾指导过一家知名大公司的一位非常资深的高管，他当时非常非常紧张。

I coached a very senior leader at very big company everybody's familiar with, And he was really, really nervous.

随着他获得晋升，面对的观众规模也越来越大。

And as he got promoted, he had larger and larger audiences.

我们重点训练的方法是：在开场时分散观众的注意力。

And what he would do, what we worked on doing is in essence distracting the audience right at the beginning.

他会这样开场：我们先看一段30秒的视频。

He would start by saying, let's watch this thirty second video.

视频结束后，他就转为引导大家讨论刚才的内容。

And then when the video was over, he became a facilitator of what just happened.

你们觉得怎么样？

So what did you think?

这说明了什么？

What does this mean?

比起成为焦点人物，他更适应引导互动的角色。

And he was much more comfortable facilitating interaction than actually being the center of attention.

其实有很多方法可以达成信息传递的目标，而不必让我站在聚光灯下。

So there are a lot of things we can do that accomplish the goal of communicating the information that's not about the spotlight being on me communicating it.

我想分享一个例子，或者讲讲孩子们展示演讲的故事。

And I wanna share one example of or take the the story about the kids doing show and tell.

我以前在本科课堂上也会这样做，但加入了一点小变化。

I used to do that in my undergraduate classes that I taught, but I would I had a wrinkle on it.

我会让人们带一件物品来，他们必须分享这件物品。

I'd have people bring in an object, they'd have to share it.

我让他们使用那个'是什么，为什么，怎么办'的结构。

I had them use that what, so what, now what structure.

然后我让他们讲述一件他们考虑过要带来但最终没带的物品。

And then I had them tell about an object that they thought about bringing in, but they didn't.

所以他们必须说明那是什么物品以及为什么选择不带它来。

So then they had to say what that object was and why they chose not to bring it in.

而这更能揭示一个人的本质。

And that was far more illuminating about the person.

我们谈到真实性。

And we talk about authenticity.

人们以一种前所未有的方式流露真情，当他们不再纠结于'我精心准备了这个话题，它能让我看起来很棒，我为这件物品设计了整套说辞'时。

People just emoted in a way that they didn't when they had this thing that I've I've made sure to think about this, and it's gonna make me look good, and I've I've architected my conversation about this one object.

但当他们谈论另一件物品时，他们的热情自然流露，交谈的本性得以展现。

When But they talked about the other object, their passion came out, their conversational nature came out.

这样做真的很有启发性。

It was really illuminating to do that.

我的研究生导师告诉我，她宁愿对着满屋子的人或空无一人的房间演讲，也不愿只对一个人讲。

My graduate adviser told me that she'd much rather give a talk to an entire room full of people or an empty room than one person.

是啊。

Yeah.

对一个人演讲确实很难。

It's hard to do it for one person.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为她在这方面很独特。

I think she's unique in that sense.

我觉得大多数人都会害怕在满屋子人面前讲话。

I think most people are terrified of giving a talk to a room full of people.

我还是不知道为什么，但那不是因为这对我来说很容易。

I'm still don't know why, but that's not because it's easy for me.

我想知道原因是什么。

I wonder what it is.

我是说，你提到过这在进化上

I mean, you said there's this evolutionary

我认为是有基础的。

basis I think for it's that.

我觉得当面对更多人时，后果会显得更真实。

I think the consequences seem more real when you're in front of more people.

就我个人而言，最让我焦虑的群体规模大约是10到12人。

For me personally, the group size that's most anxiety provoking is between like 10 or 12.

一旦超过12人，比如20人、100人甚至1000人，对我来说反而更匿名化，但10到12人这个范围是最困难的。

Once you get above twelve, twenty, 101,000 people, it becomes to me more anonymous, but it's that 10 to 12 range that's most difficult.

所以关于如何最好地练习，发声是最重要的部分。

So in terms of how you can best practice, vocalizing it is the most important part.

大声说出来。

Say it out loud.

大声说出来。

Say it out loud.

我在脑海中口若悬河。

I'm amazingly eloquent in my mind.

但当我开口时却未必能如此幸运。

I'm not always as lucky when I open up my mouth.

所以你必须真正大声说出来。

So you have to actually say it out loud.

我们在脑海中做了太多假设和联想，直到真正说出口时才发现它们并不成立。

We make so many assumptions in our mind and connect dots that when we actually speak it, we realize they don't do that.

显然要录音自听，并寻求可信之人的反馈。

Recording yourself, obviously, and listening, getting trusted others.

你必须先表达出来。

You just have to get it out.

这不仅适用于大型公开演讲。

And this isn't just for a big public speaking.