如何释放你的潜能、动力与独特才能 | 亚当·格兰特博士

为什么不是更低呢？

Why is it not lower?

我喜欢任何形式的体力活动，因为它让我能动起来，而我就是喜欢活动身体。

I like any sort of physical activity because it allows me to move and I just like moving my body.

这就对了。

There we go.

好的，你刚刚为这项活动找到了一个潜在的意义来源。

Okay, so you just identified a potential source of purpose for that activity.

我并不想强迫你去做这件事。

And I don't have a vested interest in convincing you to do this task.

我 genuinely 想知道是什么会促使你想要去做它。

I am genuinely curious about what would motivate you to want to do it.

当你开始表达出来时，哇，自我说服就开始了。

And as you start to articulate it, boom, self persuasion kicks in.

太棒了。

Love it.

我打算开始使用这些方法。

I'm going to start using these approaches.

自行尝试，风险自负。

Try it at your own risk.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商Athletic Greens。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens.

Athletic Greens，现在称为AG1，是一种包含维生素、矿物质和益生菌的饮品，能满足你所有的基础营养需求。

Athletic Greens, now called AG1, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs.

我从2012年开始服用Athletic Greens，因此很高兴它们能赞助这个播客。

I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

我开始服用Athletic Greens的原因，以及我至今仍每天一到两次服用的原因，是因为它能为我提供维持肠道健康所需的益生菌。

The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health.

我们的肠道非常重要，它寄居着与大脑、免疫系统以及身体几乎所有生物系统进行交流的肠道微生物群，对我们的即时和长期健康产生深远影响。

Our gut is very important, it's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health.

Athletic Greens中的益生菌对微生物群的健康至关重要。

And those probiotics in Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiota health.

此外，Athletic Greens含有多种适应原、维生素和矿物质，确保我所有的基础营养需求都得到满足，而且味道很好。

In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins, and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met and it tastes great.

如果你想尝试Athletic Greens，可以访问athleticgreens.com/huberman，他们会赠送你五份免费的旅行装，让你在外出、开车、乘飞机时也能轻松冲泡Athletic Greens，还会赠送你一整年的维生素D3K2。

If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, etcetera, And they'll give you a year supply of vitamin D3K2.

再次提醒，访问athleticgreens.com/huberman，即可获得五份免费旅行装和一整年的维生素D3K2。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D3K2.

我有个关于外在动机的问题。

I have a question about extrinsic motivation.

如果我们从小就被外在奖励所驱动，比如完成某事就能拿到零花钱。

So if we grow up being incentivized by extrinsic things, you'll get your allowance if you blank.

你可以用送报赚来的钱去做你真正想做的事情。

You can spend the money that you make on your paper route doing the things you really want to do.

这类基于学习的激励方式对儿童和成人是否有价值？

Is there any value in those kinds of learning based incentives for kids and for adults?

因为，毕竟现实世界就是这样。

Because, I mean, that's the real world as well.

我认识很多人，家里也有亲人，他们工作只是为了拿工资，但他们过得挺好的，因为他们喜欢花这笔钱。

I know plenty of people, I have family members that only work for a paycheck and they're pretty okay because they like spending their paycheck.

相比之下，我可能对金钱并没有太强的内在依恋。

Probably more than I'm not intrinsically attached to money.

我的确在生活中有一些需求，但我并不享受为了花钱而花钱，或者为了积累更多物品而花钱；不过我知道有些人就是如此，我当然不会评判他们。

I mean, I certainly have needs in life, but I don't enjoy spending money for the sake of spending it or for gaining more possessions, but I know people that do, and I certainly don't judge.

他们是否活在一个幸福感较低的世界里呢？

Are they somehow existing in a diminished landscape of happiness?

因为他们看起来挺快乐的，而且似乎已经找到了一种平衡。

Because they seem pretty happy to me, But they seem to have also worked out this relationship.

他们做一些事情来获得外部奖励，并且真的很享受用这些奖励能换来的东西。

They do certain things to get the extrinsic rewards, and they really enjoy what they can do with those extrinsic rewards.

关于外部奖励对动机和表现的影响，有大量的研究证据。

So there's a huge body of evidence on what are the effects of extrinsic rewards on motivation and performance.

我认为，如果查看最新的元分析，就会发现：当一项原本没有奖励的任务被加入金钱激励，或者当一份原本只有固定薪水的工作开始引入绩效奖金时，这类激励的平均效果如何。

And I think the latest conclusions, if you look at the latest meta analyses, so huge study of studies trying to accumulate what's the average effect of adding a financial incentive to a task that wasn't incentivized before, or to a job where, you know, you were paid salary and now we're gonna give you incentive compensation.

确实有提升。

There is a boost.

一般来说，当人们因产出获得激励时，生产力会更高，但这些激励更有利于提高数量而非质量。

So in general, people are more productive incentivized for their output, but these incentives are better for motivating quantity than quality.

你会看到人们完成了更多工作，但他们并不一定更仔细或更周全。

So you see people get more done, but they're not necessarily more careful or more thorough.

他们更不仔细、更不周全了吗？

Are they less careful and less thorough?

不是的。

No.

实际上，平均来看仍有积极影响。

Actually, there's still positive effects on average.

只是效果较弱。

They're just weaker.

当然，你可能会开始思考：如何激励人们既快速又细致？

And of course, you could then start to say, Well, how do I incentivize, you know, being fast and careful?

但我认为我们确实需要非常谨慎的是，外在奖励对内在动机存在一种削弱效应，你之前也提到了这一点，这可以追溯到70年代初，我们知道如果拿一项有趣的任务然后为此付钱给你，你可能会得出结论认为你只是为了结果才做这件事，从而对任务本身失去兴趣。

But I think where we do have to be really cautious is there's an undermining effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation, and you were alluding to this earlier, dating back to the early '70s, where we know that if we take an interesting task and then we pay you for it, you might conclude that you're only doing it for the outcome, and you lose interest in the task.

经典的演示来自马克·莱珀及其同事，是关于孩子们玩电子游戏的例子。

So the classic demonstration, Mark Lepper and colleagues, is kids playing video games.

他们原本因为游戏有趣而玩，然后你开始加入奖励机制，当奖励被取消后，他们就不再想玩了，因为任务的意义已经发生了改变。

And they're playing them because they're fun, and then you start to add in an incentive, and then when the incentive's taken away, they don't want to play anymore because the meaning of the task has changed.

现在我做这件事是为了从中获得某些东西，而不是因为我热爱这个过程。

And now I'm doing it because I want to get something out of it, as opposed to I love the process.

我认为那种现象并非必然存在。

I think that that phenomenon does not have to exist.

我们知道，例如在工作中，只要管理者给予员工自主权，他们就不会以控制性的方式呈现奖励。

So we know, for example, at work, if managers, as long as they give people autonomy, they don't present the rewards in a controlling way.

所以，与其说‘安德鲁，为了获得这个，你需要完成以下工作’。

So instead of saying, you know, Andrew, in order to earn this, you need to do the following work.

如果他们说的是，‘嘿，你看，如果你能交付以下内容，我会非常高兴。’

If they say, hey, look, you know, I'd really love it if you, you know, if you would deliver the following.

为了让你觉得值得，我提供了这个激励。

And in order to make that worth your while, I'm offering this incentive.

当人们拥有选择感和控制感时，他们的反应会大不相同。

People react very differently when they have a sense of choice and control.

所以我认为，这大概就是起点。

So I think that's I guess the starting point.

在有自主性的情况下，我认为外在奖励并没有什么重大弊端。

In the presence of autonomy, I don't think there's a major downside of extrinsic rewards.

我认为你还得小心，别过度合理化这个任务。

I think you also have to be careful that, yeah, I guess that you're not over justifying the task.

换句话说，别淹没了人们做这件事的内在动机，而是为尝试它增添一个理由。

In other words, you're not swamping people's intrinsic reason for doing it, but you're adding a reason to try it.

所以，如果我们暂时换个领域来看，比如那些不愿意吃蔬菜的孩子。

So actually, if we go to a different domain for a second, so look at kids who don't want to eat their vegetables.

外在激励在让孩子第一次尝试吃蔬菜时非常有效。

Extrinsic incentives are very effective to get kids to try vegetables for the first time.

但希望的是，他们能发现一两种不讨厌的蔬菜，然后找到继续吃下去的理由。

But then the hope is that they discover a vegetable or two that they don't mind, and then they find reasons to keep doing it.

我认为这就是我希望很多奖励发挥作用的方式。

And I think that's how I want a lot of rewards to work.

我不认为奖励应该是用来控制人们行为的胡萝卜。

I don't think that rewards should be carrots that we dangle to try to control people's behavior.

它们应该象征着我们对某种行为的欣赏和重视。

I think they should be symbols of how much we appreciate and value a particular behavior.

如果你这样看待它们，人们就更容易说，是的，你知道吗？

And if you frame them that way, it's a lot easier for people to say, Yeah, you know what?

这个奖励是我真正想要的，但我做这件事并不仅仅是为了这个奖励。

That reward is something that I really want, but I'm not only doing the task for that reward.

是的，你基本上回答了我本来要问的问题，就是，虽然这么说可能听起来有点新纪元，但我们现在可是在加利福尼亚。

Yeah, you basically answered the question I was going to ask, which is, and you know, at risk of sounding new agey, but we are sitting in California.

我可以想象，当一个人专注于外在奖励时——无论是体力任务还是认知任务——如果我只关注外在奖励，那我实际上就‘不在场’了，对吧？

I could imagine that when one is focused on the extrinsic rewards, so a physical task or a cognitive task for an extrinsic reward, if I'm focusing on the extrinsic reward, I'm also air quotes again, not present, right?

我在意的是结果，而不是过程。

I'm thinking about the outcome, I'm not thinking about process.

我认为你可以进一步阐述这一点的具体含义，但我认为有大量的数据支持这样一个观点：当我们身心都投入到正在执行的任务中时，我们的表现会更好，而且我们对这项任务的内在喜好也可能随之增加。

And I think there's perhaps you can flesh out some of what this is exactly, but I think there's a fairly extensive data to support the idea that when we are physically and mentally present to the task that we're going to perform better, and presumably our intrinsic liking of that task or performing that task increases as well.

这是真的吗？

Is that true?

是的，我认为是这样。

Yeah, I think so.

如果我们想分析内在动机为何对表现有益，其中一个机制，你之前提到过，就是注意力的集中。

I think, so if we want to break down the mechanisms for why intrinsic motivation is useful for performance, one, you touched on earlier, it's focus of attention.

当你有内在动机时，更容易进入心流状态。

It's much easier to find flow when you're intrinsically motivated.

你会进入一种深度沉浸的状态，时间仿佛消逝了。

You get into that state of deep absorption where time melts away.

你提到过，无论是加速还是减缓你对时间的感知。

So you mentioned, you know, sort of either speeding up or slowing down your sense of time.

你会忘记自己身在何处。

You forget where you are.

有时你甚至会失去对自我身份的感知，完全融入到任务中。

Sometimes you even lose track of your identity, and you're just merged into the task.

因此，这种专注是有帮助的。

And so that concentration is helpful.

此外，还有一种更强的坚持效应：当你享受所做的事情时，面对障碍时更不容易放弃。

There's also a greater persistence effect, that when you enjoy what you're doing, you're less likely to give up in the face of obstacles.

即使在没有做任务的时候，你也更可能去思考它，并产生绝佳的创意。

You're more likely to think about it when you're not doing the task and come up with great ideas.

所以，我认为这不仅涉及更努力地工作、更长时间地工作、更聪明地工作，还涉及更清晰地思考。

And so, you know, I think there's a working harder, there's a working longer, there's a working smarter, and there's also a thinking more clearly effect.

这是一个简短但相关的插话。

This is a brief but related tangent.

近年来我发现一件极其困难的事情是，我的一生，从还是个小孩子的时候起，就一直在追求各种事物。

One of the things that I've found incredibly difficult in recent years is that, you know, most of my life, really since I was small kid, I was forging for things.

然后我以前会在周一上课时讲课，只要他们允许我，直到他们最终因为我周末读的东西而禁止我这么做。

And then I used to give lectures on Monday in class if they let me until they eventually stopped me about the stuff I was reading about all weekend.

所以我在教授这条路上很早就开始了，但现在如果我读到一些东西，发现其中有一个我觉得非常有价值的信息、工具或方法，我会想，哇，这太棒了。

So got an early start in the professorial front, but now if I'm reading something and I discover what I think is a really valuable piece of information or a tool or a protocol, I'm like, wow, this is really cool.

这些发现真是太酷了。

These findings are, oh, so cool.

但这里有个问题，那就是我现在有机会通过社交媒体把这些分享给全世界。

There's a problem, which is that now I have an opportunity to cast that out to the world through social media.

我们每个人都是如此。

We all do.

这可能是个误会。

This could be Wait.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

你在用社交媒体？

You're on social media?

时不时地。

From time to time.

你们都

You're all

你们都充斥在我的动态里。

you're all over my feeds.

顺便说一下，你和我都自己运营社交媒体，我真的很感激。

You and and I both do our own social media, by the way, which I really appreciate.

我认为，别人是否在替某人运营社交媒体，总是能看出来的。

I think you one can always detect if if someone else is handling someone's social media.

所以，是的，我在社交媒体上，我很高兴能有机会既传播想法和信息，也能收到反馈。

So, yes, I'm on social media, and and I love that I have the opportunity to both send out ideas and information and also receive feedback.

我非常喜欢评论区，也总是鼓励大家留言。

I really love the comment section and always encourage comments.

说实话，我从中学到了很多。

I learned from it, frankly.

爱是个强烈的词。

Love is a strong word.

我从中学到了东西，而你和我都是在学术文化中成长起来的，坦白说，学术文化中所经历的磨砺与社交媒体上的磨砺非常不同。

I learned from it, and you and I were weaned in the academic culture where frankly, the kind of hazing that one receives in academic culture is very different than the kind of hazing that one receives on social media.

但假设你是在学术界成长起来的，你会培养出非常坚韧的心理素质。

But let's just say that if you come up through academia, you develop a pretty thick skin.

我同意。

I agree.

不过我得说，当我刚开始在社交媒体上发帖时，我真的很惊讶于自己竟然如此喜欢建设性的批评。

I do have to say though that there was a part of me that was really surprised when I started posting on social that I love constructive criticism.

我完全没有预料到会有这么多人在根本不看研究方法是否严谨的情况下就本能地批评一项研究。

I was unprepared for the number of people who will knee jerk criticize a study without even looking at whether the methods are rigorous.

没错。

Right.

我说，得了吧。

I'm like, come on.

如果我发布了这个，至少值得考虑一下背后可能存在强有力证据的可能性。

If I posted this, surely it's at least worth considering the possibility that there's strong evidence behind it.

对。

Right.

嗯，这时候只需要简短地回应一下，我不称之为修辞，而是说：你知道，你最好再仔细读一下这项研究，我觉得你会对答案感到满意，之类的，我不确定。

Well, that's where a brief, I won't call it a rhetoric, but a response of, you know, clearly you should read the study further because I think you'll be satisfied with the answer or something, I don't know.

但我同意，那里有时确实有点苛刻，但社交媒体渠道我认为是一把双刃剑。

But I agree, it can be a little bit harsh in there sometimes, but the social media channels are, I think, have, it's a double edged blade.

它们显然有其问题，但也是快速分享信息的绝佳机会。

They obviously have their issues, but can be a wonderful opportunity to share information and share it quickly.

问题是，它让我偏离了原本在做的事情——学习，寻找那些之后可以分享的珍宝。

The problem is that it takes me out of what I was doing initially, which was learning, searching for those gems with which to share later.

我认为还需要从更广阔的视角来考虑这个问题，比如人们，我昨天去了海滩。

And I think there's a broader landscape to consider this where people for instance are I was at the beach yesterday.

那天在海滩上简直太棒了，尤其是对这个季节来说。

It was just absolutely spectacular day at the beach, especially for this time of year.

每个人都在用手机拍摄这一幕，并可能将这种体验分享到社交媒体或告诉朋友。

And everyone was taking pictures of that experience on their phone and probably sharing that experience either social media or with friends.

这与拍下照片后直到 later 才看到，或根本不发送出去，是完全不同的。

This is very different than taking a photograph and not seeing that photograph until later or not sending it out.

因此，现在有近乎无限的情境让我们脱离了原本的愉悦体验。

And so there are now near infinite number of circumstances where we are taken out of the rewarding experience.

我应该重新表述一下。

I should rephrase that.

我们正在主动脱离那些内在的愉悦体验，转而关注另一种我认为本质上是外在奖励的愉悦体验。

We are taking ourselves out of the rewarding experience and focusing on a different rewarding experience that I think by definition is an extrinsic reward.

因此，我们正在主动脱离内在的愉悦体验，转而激活这些外在奖励。

So we are taking ourselves out of our intrinsically rewarding experiences and activating these extrinsic rewards.

你认为这种方式在某种程度上削弱了我们对真正享受的事物的体验吗？

And do you think in any way that's undermining our experience of things that we really enjoy?

再次强调，我不是要妖魔化社交媒体或这些渠道，但我自己发现，要克制住分享这些让我无比兴奋的知识并不容易，所以我故意延迟分享。

Again, not to demonize social media or these channels, but I've personally found it difficult to refrain from sharing this knowledge that I'm so excited to share, but I deliberately delay.

我有很多东西，存了满满一文件夹的素材想发出去，但我只是系统性地慢慢发布，因为我极力抵制这种冲动，主要是因为我希望继续享受这种学习和探索的过程。

And there's a lot, I have a deep list of folders full of things that I want to post, but I'm just doing it systematically over time because I really fight the temptation to do this mostly because I want to continue to enjoy this learning process and this seeking process so much.

是的，我也有同感，我感到很矛盾。

Yeah, I feel the same, I feel torn.

我想是E。

I think it was E.

B。

B.

怀特说过，我每天早上醒来，都在享受世界和改善世界之间挣扎。

White who said, I rise in the morning torn between the desire to enjoy the world and the desire to improve the world.

这使得规划一天变得很困难。

And this makes it difficult to plan the day.

我每天都感受到这种挣扎。

And I I I feel that every day.

我想，我甚至今天早上都感受到了。

I think I mean, I I even I felt it this morning.

我当时想，好吧。

I was like, okay.

该走了，该去听休伯曼播客了。

It's time to it's time to leave to to come to the the Huberman podcast.

我心想，等等。

I'm like, wait.

但我还没达到我的最低日照时间。

But I I I didn't hit my minimum sunlight viewing.

那我该怎么办？

So what what do I do?

我是该准时来见你，还是该满足你的要求？

Do I show up on time for you or do I meet your criteria?

我正在接受早晨的阳光照射，因此晚了几十分钟甚至几个小时，这完全没问题。

The the the explanation I was getting my morning sunlight and therefore I'm x number of minutes or even hours late would have been completely fine.

我想也是。

I figured as much.

是的。

Yes.

当然。

Absolutely.

这对你来说是一个可以接受的借口。

Built That's in acceptable excuse with you.

我认为，我的意思是，每个人都会经历某种形式的这种情况，而且随着社交媒体和智能手机的普及，这种情况确实变得更糟了。

I think, I mean, I think everybody experiences a version of this, and it's definitely gotten worse with social media and with smartphones.

我也这么认为，让我首次注意到这一点的是格洛丽亚·马克。

I think so, one of the most startling data points for me was Gloria Mark first put this on my radar.

在新冠疫情之前，普通人每天会查看电子邮件72次。

Before COVID, average the person was checking email 72 times a day.

如果你频繁地自我打断，你怎么可能集中注意力超过几分钟呢？

How do you ever concentrate for more than a couple minutes if you're self interrupting that often?

你做不到。

You can't.

布里吉特·舒尔特对这种现象有一个很好的说法。

Brigitte Schulte has a great term for this.

她称之为时间碎片。

Calls it time confetti.

她说，我们把那些有意义的时间块切成了无数细小的碎片。

And she says, we're taking these meaningful blocks of time and we're slicing them up into these tiny little dots of confetti.

不仅我们无法完成任何事情，还在侵蚀自己的幸福感，因为很难享受在一项任务上获得的那三十秒短暂时光。

And not only can we not accomplish anything, we're also eroding our own sense of joy Because it's really hard to enjoy the thirty second blip of time that you get on a task.

我认为我们对这些问题的存在了解得很多，但对如何解决它们却知之甚少，不过我们确实知道一点：预留不受打扰的、有意义的时间非常重要。

And I think we know a lot more about the existence of these problems than how to solve them, but one thing we do know is blocking out uninterrupted time meaningful.

莱斯利·珀洛做过一个很棒的实验，她让工程师们实行安静时间政策。

There's a great Leslie Perlow experiment where she takes engineers and she has them, she sets a quiet time policy.

每周二、周四和周五上午之前禁止打扰。

No interruptions Tuesday, Thursday, Friday before noon.

生产力提高了65%。

65% above average productivity.

你能再重复一遍这个流程吗？

Could you repeat the protocol again?

是的。

Yeah.

所以安静时间有几个版本，但我认为最有效的是周二、周四、周五上午之前没有会议、没有打扰、不使用Slack、不查邮件。

So quiet time, there are a couple iterations of it, but I think the most effective one was Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, no meetings, no interruptions, no Slack, no emails before noon.

在这些不受打扰的时段里，人们可以专注于自己工作中的主要任务。

And during those periods of no interruptions, one could tend to whatever their primary purpose is at work.

对。

Yeah.

你明白了。

You have it.

对我而言，可能是做播客。

So for me, might be podcasting.

显然，我从不把手机带在这里，也从不这么做，但这并不意味着我完全不与他人互动。

Obviously, don't have my phone in here and never do, but it doesn't mean no interaction with anyone else.

这仅仅意味着专注于主要任务。

It just means focusing on the major task.

任务。

The task.

没错。

Exactly.

你带着清晰的优先级和目标进入工作状态。

And you come in with a clear sense of priority and purpose.

我不认为周二、周四、周五的上午有什么神奇之处。

And I don't think there's anything magical about Tuesday, Thursday, Friday before noon.

重要的是设定界限并共同承诺遵守它。

It's just the idea of setting a boundary and collectively committing to it that that seems to be important.

而且我想，当我思考这个问题时，我非常想知道你对生物节律的看法。

And think, you know, when I think about this, I'd be really curious about your take on chronotypes here.

因为我在过去几年中学到的一点是，如果你是晨型人，你最好的分析和创造性思维都在早晨。

Because I think one thing I've learned in the last couple of years is that if you're a morning person, you do your best analytical and creative thinking in the morning.

因此，对于我这样的晨型人来说，安静时段会非常有效。

And so the quiet time block would work very well for me as a morning person.

如果你是夜猫子，你可能更希望把这个时段安排在下午晚些时候。

If you're a night owl, you probably want that block in the late afternoon.

我受到鼓舞的是，新冠疫情期间有一些证据表明，人们在午餐后开会效果最好，他们在午餐后的会议中 multitask 的可能性降低了大约百分之三十。

And I was encouraged, there was some evidence during COVID that people have their best meetings right after lunch, that they're something like thirty percent less likely to multitask in an after lunch meeting.

我想，你或许可以分析一下‘饭后困倦’的现象，比如通过与他人互动重新获得能量，但这让我开始思考：我们是否应该把一天的最初几小时和最后几小时留给深度工作，而把核心会议、互动和非核心活动安排在中间时段？

And I guess, you know, you could probably unpack the food coma, you know, getting re energized by other people, but it's led me to wonder if we should all be protecting the first few hours and the last few hours of the day for deep work, and then doing our core meetings and interactions and kind of off task activities in the middle.

你对这种时间安排顺序怎么看？

What do you think about that as a sequence?

是的，关于这一点我有很多问题想问你，但我非常喜欢这个时间序列。

Yeah, well, have a lot of questions about this for you, but I love that sequence.

这确实符合我的自然节律。

It certainly fits with my natural rhythms.

我认为，只要一个人晚上睡得好，并且大致遵循常规作息，就有充分的证据支持这一点。

I think there's ample evidence to support the fact that provided one is sleeping well at night and is on a more or less a standard schedule.

我说的标准，是指晚上9:30到11:30之间睡觉，早上6点到8点之间起床，比如5:30或7:30，类似这样的作息。

When I say standard, I mean, going to bed somewhere between, let's say 09:30 and 11:30PM, waking up sometime between, let's say 6AM and 8AM, 05:30 or 07:30, something like that.

也就是说，不是那种极端的夜猫子或超级早起者，而是遵循这种作息模式的人。

So not highly unusual night owl or super early bird for people that are following that sort of schedule.

在醒来后的前八个小时里，儿茶酚胺类物质通常会显著增加。

The first, let's just say from zero to eight hours after waking, there tends to be a fairly robust increase in all the catecholamines.

比如多巴胺、去甲肾上腺素和肾上腺素，这些物质通常会提升警觉性、注意力和专注力，非常适合进行分析性工作，也适合执行你已经理解的策略，需要高效处理大量任务时尤其有用。

So dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine, which generally, okay, generally speaking lead to increases in alertness, attention, and focus that are great for analytic work, great for implementation of strategies that you already understand, and you need to churn through a lot of stuff.

当然，尤其是在早晨，如果能接触晨光，皮质醇水平也会健康地升高。

And of course there's a big increase in the morning, especially if you view morning sunlight, a healthy increase, I should say in cortisol.

皮质醇并不是坏事，朋友们。

Cortisol is not bad folks.

你需要皮质醇，但你希望它的峰值出现在一天的早些时候。

Want cortisol, but you want that peak early in the day.

这一点我们是清楚的。

We know that.

好的。

Okay.

所以对大多数人来说，至少根据我的理解，醒来后零到八小时这段时间最适合用来处理最重要的任务。

So for most people, seems at least my understanding is that that period of time, zero to eight hours after waking or so is best devoted to the most critical tasks.

但一个常见的问题是，人们利用这种执行已知策略的能力，开始不停地回复所有邮件，或者与所有人交谈——顺便说一句，与同事交流很好，而且常常是必要的，但关键在于这些交流是富有成效的，还是仅仅只是闲聊。

But one of the common problems is that people take that ability to implement a known strategy and they start battering back all the emails or talking to all, by the way, talking to coworkers is great and it's often required, but the question is whether or not it's productive conversation or whether or not it's just conversation.

我们通常在一天刚开始时精力充沛。

And we tend to have a lot of energy early in the day.

我特别关注神经能量这个概念，而不仅仅是卡路里能量。

And I'm obsessed with the idea of neural energy as opposed to just caloric energy.

所以我们现在谈的是神经能量，然后是午餐后。

So there we're talking about neural energy and then post lunch.

实际上，当我们进入醒来后九到十七小时这个阶段时，自主神经兴奋性会下降，也就是白天中期的午后低谷，这种午后困倦可以通过稍微推迟早晨的咖啡因摄入来部分缓解，但有趣的是，你知道午后会议往往更高效、任务切换和分心更少，这让我觉得，也许稍微不那么警觉反而更有利于专注。

So really, as we get to this sort of nine to seventeen hours after waking, there is a dip in autonomic arousal that during the middle of the day, that post perennial dip, those are post lunch sleepiness that can be partially offset by delaying your morning caffeine a bit if you have the afternoon crash, but it's interesting that you know that more productive meetings and less task switching and distraction occurred in meetings after lunch, because that makes me think that perhaps being a little bit less alert is going to lend itself to more focus.

确实，这种理想状态是放松但专注的——你并不困倦，但也没有过多的内在能量让你去同时处理一堆事情，因为我觉得很多人都有这种感觉，你知道，我现在就在快到中午的时候喝着双份浓缩咖啡。

And indeed that's the sort of optimal state relaxed, but focused, you're not sleepy, but you also don't have so much intrinsic energy that you're tending to a bunch things of because I think a lot of people do feel that way, you know, and I'm drinking, you know, double espresso right now, late mid morning, late morning.

而且，我觉得某些Zoom会议，我该怎么说呢？

And, you know, I can sit still, I think certain zoom meetings, how do I say this?

我不想冒犯我的任何同事。

I don't want to offend any of my colleagues.

我的意思是，他们确实够无聊的。

I mean, they are boring enough.

他们的内容不够丰富，无法吸引我全部的注意力。

They are not content rich enough to grab all my attention.

而如今，当然了，有多块屏幕。

And nowadays, of course, are multiple screens.

通常我会有两部手机和一台电脑，而在开Zoom会议时，你得花不少精力来回切换这些手机。

Typically, I've got two phones and a computer and you have to really spend some work to flip over those phones while I'm on a Zoom and things like that.

抱歉，你刚才说什么？

Maybe Sorry, what were saying?

所以，也许自主神经唤醒的降低支持了你刚才描述的现象，但我不确定。

So it's maybe the reduction in autonomic arousal that supports what you just described, but I don't know.

我更准确的理解是，创造性工作和头脑风暴最适合在下午晚些时候进行。

My thinking or my understanding rather was that creative work and kind of brainstorming was best accomplished in the late afternoon.

我在讲课时注意到，想了解一下你在大学授课时的经验：当我晚上给本科生上课时，我通常喜欢安排在下午五点到七点，甚至七点到九点半，那时学生们会更放松、更自在。

I've noticed when lecturing, I'd be curious what your experience is with in university lectures when I held courses in the evening, I used to like to hold my courses five to 7PM or even seven to 09:30PM when I was teaching undergraduates, that people were much looser and more relaxed.

我一直觉得这可能与傍晚时分GABA神经传递增加有关，人们会更放松，社交焦虑也更少。

And I always thought that that might have something to do with an increase in GABA transmission that's known to happen late in late evening, that people are just kind of more relaxed and less social anxiety.

他们一整天都和别人待在一起。

They've been around people for much of the day.

我更倾向于给出反思，而不是直接的答案。

I send back more reflections than answers.

对于你描述的现象，我没有确凿的神经科学解释，但有一些新兴理论认为它可能这样运作：零到九小时是第一阶段，九到十七小时是第二阶段，而十七点到二十四点，我称之为第三阶段——这时你本该睡觉了。

I don't have any firm neuroscience explanations for what you described, but there are some emerging theories about how it might work, it has this zero to nine hours, phase one, nine to seventeen hours, phase two, and then of course, from seventeen to twenty four hours, I'll call it phase three, you should be asleep.

是的。

Yeah.

理想情况下。

Ideally.

我认为你的教学经验中存在一个混淆因素，因为本科生常常睡到中午，甚至可能熬到凌晨四点。

Well, I think there's a confound in your teaching experience, which is undergrads often sleep in until, what, noon, or they might be up until 4AM.

或者至少早上十点似乎是他们典型的起床时间。

Or at least 10AM seems to be a typical rise time

所以早上的课对他们来说可能太早了，还没完全清醒，但最近有一些全新的证据表明，至少在工作创造力方面，我最近读了三篇研究，显示早起者实际上在早晨完成的创造性工作更多。

for So the a morning class might be too early for them to be fully awake, but there's some brand new evidence that, at least on creativity at work, I read a series of, I think it was three studies recently, showing that early birds actually did do more creative work in the morning.

而且我认为，同样地，还没有神经科学家研究过其中的机制，但从心理过程来看，早期似乎存在能量水平的优势。

And in part, I think, again, don't think any neuroscientist has touched the mechanisms on this yet, but in terms of the psychological processes, early on there seems to be a benefit of the energy level.

而这种能量会促进更多的发散性思维。

And some of that energy leads to more divergent thinking.

而到了后期，如果你是早起型的人，你可能就不再那么擅长发散思维了，于是思维会变得更常规。

And later, if you're a morning person, you might lose the ability to diverge quite as much, and so you end up in a more conventional space of thought.

这和你对大脑中这种现象如何发生的理解一致吗？

Does that track at all with your understanding of how it might play out in the brain?

我的理解是，这会因人而异，但睡眠与清醒之间的临界状态确实有其意义。

My understanding is to be a little bit, it would be individual, but, you know, there is something to these liminal states between sleep and waking.

所以，我们能不能把我说的和你刚才说的总结一下：我们知道，在入睡和醒来时的过渡状态中，不一定非得是入睡或醒来后的前半小时，似乎更容易出现发散性思维，或者至少是激活了一些在执行明确任务和策略时不会那么受限的神经网络，对吧？

So maybe we can wrap a convenient bow around what I said and what you just said, which is that we know that in the transition states into and out of sleep, and it doesn't necessarily have to be within the first half hour in and out of sleep that there seems to be more divergent thinking, or at least activation of neural networks that are not as constrained as one observes when they're in a sheer task and strategy implementation mode, right?

我的意思是——

I mean, I think-

这和淋浴时的灵感效应类似吗？

Is that similar to the shower effect?

淋浴时的灵感效应？是的，人们在淋浴、跑步或入睡时会产生灵感，而我最好的想法总是在醒来后的一个小时内出现，所以我随身带着笔记本，这让我身边的人很头疼。

The shower effect, so people have ideas in the shower or while running or while falling asleep, or my best ideas always come within the first hour after waking, that's why I carry a notebook around and much to the dismay of people in my life.

通常我早上第一件事不想听任何人说话，也不想和任何人交谈，这确实是个问题，我也不得不做出调整。

Oftentimes I don't want to hear or talk to anyone first thing in the morning, this is problematic and I had to make adjustments.

我们来聊聊在提高效率、自我控制和家庭互动之间的调整。

We'll talk about adjustments between productivity and control and family interactions.

我知道你研究并写过这方面的东西，但这些过渡状态确实很有趣。

This is something I know you've worked on and written about, but those liminal states are interesting.

我很想听听你的看法。

And I'd love your thoughts on this.

我邀请过几位嘉宾在这档播客中谈论他们的创作过程，比如里克·鲁宾，他以音乐制作闻名，也有一档非常棒的播客叫《Tetra Gramaton》；还有我的同事卡尔·迪斯罗思，他是属于那0.0001%的超级天才生物工程师和神经科学家，同时还是全职临床精神科医生，而且有五个孩子。

I've had several guests on this podcast talk about their creative process, namely Rick Rubin, he's famous for his work in music producing also has a great podcast, Tetra Gramaton, as well as Carl Dysroth, a colleague of mine, who's really in the 0.0001% of super talented bioengineers neuroscientists, who also happens to be a full time clinical psychiatrist and has five children.

好的。

Okay.

我问了他们关于自己的创作过程，因为这两个人都非常有创造力。

And I asked them about their creative process because both of them are very creative.

卡尔的创作过程是这样的：对他来说，通常是在深夜——但其实任何时间都可以——刻意让身体保持绝对静止，并强迫自己用完整的句子思考。

Carl's process involves the following, late at night for him, but it could really be any time of day, deliberately making his body as still as possible and forcing himself to think in complete sentences.

里克的创作过程虽然包含很多不同元素，但很大程度上也涉及躺下后让自己极度安静下来。

Rick's creative process, although it includes a lot of different things, has a lot to do with also getting very still lying down.

好吧，我接触过的其他一些学者和艺术家则提到，要让身体动起来，但让思绪平静下来。

Okay, other folks that I've spoken to academics and artists have referred to getting their body into motion, but quieting their mind.

所以，这是两种截然相反的过程。

So these are two opposite processes.

一种情况是身体静止，但思维被刻意保持高度活跃。

One case, the body is still, but the mind is deliberately very active.

在另一种情况下，身体非常活跃，但他们的思维处于自由联想状态，不是静止的，也没有刻意去思考任何具体的事情。

In the other scenario, the body is very active, but they're making their mind sort of in free association, not still, but they're not deliberately thinking about any one thing.

太有趣了。

Fascinating.

我对这个着迷了。

And I'm obsessed with this.

也许你我可以一起研究这个。

Maybe you and I could work on this.

我该休个假了。

I'm due for a sabbatical.

也许我们可以弄清楚这一点，因为我从未

Maybe we could figure this out because I Never

见过有人研究过这个。

seen anyone study this before.

对，因为神经系统，不，神经系统，我也不记得有谁正式研究过这个。

Right, because the nervous system, no, the nervous system, I'm not aware of anyone who has done it formally either.

神经系统当然是一种脑与身体的现象。

The nervous system of course is a brain body phenomenon.

那么，当我们暂时停止大脑或身体的主动运作时，会发生什么？

And so what happens when we sort of cut off the deliberate operations of brain or body?

只要其中一方被刻意关闭，无论是大脑还是身体，似乎都无关紧要。

And it doesn't seem to matter whether or not it's brain or body as long as one is deliberately shut off.

所以，无论如何，我很想听听你的看法。

And so anyway, I'd love your thoughts on this.

我不觉得自己是个特别有创造力或非常有创意的人，但

I don't consider myself like a ultra creative or creative type any great degree, but

我也是。

Me neither.

这就是为什么

That's why

我开始这么做。

I started doing it.

对。

Right.

我对那些极具创造力的人为激发灵感而采取的刻意方法非常着迷。

I'm fascinated by these deliberate tactics that highly creative people have undertaken in order to bring about ideas.

我确实在跑步时产生过一些最好的想法，那时我只是在跑步，根本没在刻意思考，突然心想：天啊，这个想法真棒。

I certainly have some of my best ideas when I'm running and I'll just be running along like, my goodness, I wasn't even thinking.

现在我得赶紧记下来，好吧，然后继续跑。

Now I need to write this down, okay, and then continue.

我试过狄德罗的方法和鲁宾的方法，实际上我刚在海外和里克待了一周，他确实花大量时间只是静静地思考，但要持续坚持这种做法非常困难。

I tried the Diceroth approach and the Rubin approach, actually just spent a week with Rick overseas, and indeed he spends a lot of time just still thinking, and it's a very hard practice to get consistent with.

我想，这里是否存在个体差异，即哪种状态需要保持稳定或持续。

I wonder if there are individual differences here on which needs to be stable or steady.

我觉得创造力的很大一部分在于打破你的本能反应。

I'm thinking about a huge part of creativity is overriding your default instincts.

如果你天生就思绪不断，那么让自己安静下来，可能会让思维转向更原创或非传统的方向。

And if you're somebody whose default is to have your mind constantly going, then quieting would probably shift your train of thought to something more original or unconventional.

相反的情况可能成立。

The opposite might be true.

如果你天生心思平静，我猜想你需要通过大量自由发散的思绪来让自己摆脱这种状态。

If you have a naturally quiet mind, I would imagine you need to sort of jolt yourself out of that with lots of access to free ranging thoughts.

因此，研究我们是否能根据一个人的性格来预测他应该保持静止，这会很有趣。

And so, it'd be interesting actually to study whether we can predict what you should still based on your personality.

是的，我想我们可以用这项研究做点什么，我觉得我们正在酝酿一项合作。

Yeah, I want, and maybe what we could do with that study, I think we have a collaboration brewing.

你知道有个笑话，两个科学家走进一间房间，走出来的就是一项合作。

You know, there's a joke, you know, two scientists walk into a room and what comes out is a collaboration.

所以我想让人进入扫描仪。

So I'd want to put people in a scanner.

让人在扫描仪里跑步很难，因为运动会产生伪影，但我们可以观察静息状态下的网络激活情况，再对比人们完全静止并刻意思考时的静息网络激活情况，然后看看这两个结果的重叠部分。

It's hard to get people treadmilling in a scanner because of movement artifact, but, and just look at resting network activation and compare that to resting network activation when people are completely still and forcing themselves to think in deliberate senses, and then look at the overlap in that Venn diagram.

这正是我感兴趣的地方。

That's what's of interest to me.

它们可能是完全不同的大脑状态，但实际可能相似之处多于差异。

They may be completely different brain states, they might actually have more similarity than differences.

那么，我想知道是否能将这一点与输出的质量和数量差异联系起来。

I wonder then if you can tie that to differences in the quality and quantity of output.

因此，我推测无论是哪种活动方式，其好处之一都是能增加想法的数量，而我们知道，这有利于多样性，并最终提高偶然发现新事物的概率。

So I would imagine that one of the benefits of either kind of movement is that you end up increasing the volume of ideas, which we know is good for variety, and ultimately increases the probability that you stumble onto something new.

但我觉得，静止的状态可能更有利于筛选过程——我认为创造力中最困难的部分之一，其实是评判自己的想法。

But then I think the being still part is probably better for the filtering process of, I think one of the hardest parts of creativity is actually judging your own ideas.

大多数有创造力的人都有很多糟糕的想法。

Most creative people have many terrible ideas.

事实上，最有创造力的人往往拥有最糟糕的想法，因为他们产生的想法太多了。

In fact, the most creative people have the most horrible ideas because they just have a lot of ideas.

我认为，或许通过让身体或心灵平静下来，你能与自己的想法保持一定距离，从而判断它是愚蠢的还是有前景的。

And I think that maybe there's a way in which quieting either your body and or your mind allows you to gain some distance from the idea and see whether it's boneheaded or promising.

与此相关的是，当一个人试图评估自己想法的质量时，你如何应对，或者人们如何应对那种会带来虚假否定的评判——即你无意中抹杀了绝佳的想法？

Along those lines, when one is trying to gauge the quality of their ideas, how do you cope with, or how does one cope with not placing a judge on that that causes some, you know, false negatives where you're where you're wiping out great ideas?

因为你知道，里克·鲁宾经常谈到，不要给观众他们想要的东西。

Because, you know, Rick Rubin talks a lot about, you know, don't give the audience what they want.

他们并不知道自己想要什么。

They don't know what they want.

他们还没见过这样的东西。

They haven't seen it yet.

如果这是一个真正有创意的想法，他们就从未见过。

If it's a truly creative idea, they haven't seen it.

但当然，我们都必须培养自己的审美能力。

And, but of course we all have to develop our own sense of taste.

那么，这个过程对你来说是怎么运作的呢？

So, well, how does this process work for you?

我的意思是，你写过并研究过如此广泛的主题，而且我一直不得不说，你对这些主题的探讨既严谨又清晰，是的，确实如此。

I mean, you've written about and worked on a tremendous range of topics and always, I must say with such rigor and such clarity of communication about those Yeah, it's absolutely true.

我的意思是，百分之百正确。

I mean, like 100%.

所以我们这里常说，别来弱鸡的东西，你知道的？

So we say around here, no weak sauce, you know?

你的作品里完全没有弱鸡的东西。

There's no weak sauce in your game.

太惊人了。

It's incredible.

那你什么时候获得灵感？又是如何筛选这些想法的？

So when do you get your ideas and how do you filter those ideas?

我觉得灵感随时都可能出现。

I feel like the when could be any time.

我觉得，你也一定有过类似的经历。

I think the, I mean, you've clearly experienced this too.

对我来说，主持播客最棒的地方在于，我可以理直气壮地去学习任何我想了解的主题，向任何我想请教的人请教。

For me, the best thing about hosting a podcast is I have an excuse to learn about anything I want from almost anyone I want.

而且我把这当作我工作的一部分。

And I get to call that part of my job.

所以我觉得，这种内置的学习机制意味着灵感可能在任何时刻出现。

And so I feel like having that built in mechanism for learning means ideas could come at any moment.

对我而言，筛选想法的过程在过去几年里不断演变。

The filtering process for me it's evolved over the last few years.

我现在的方法是，比如开始写一本新书时，我会先写好第一章的初稿，然后发给五到八位我信任其判断的人。

What I do now is, let's say I'm starting a new book, I'll write a draft of the first chapter and I send it to five to eight people whose judgment I trust.

其中一些人是我的同行，深谙组织心理学领域。

And by design, some of those people are in my field, they're deep seated in organizational psychology.

另一些人则完全不在这个领域，但对我的研究主题充满好奇。

Others are very far outside, but curious about the topics I'm interested in.

我会请他们给出0到10分的评分。

And I asked them for a zero to 10 score.

这是我从跳水运动中学到的做法——起跳后，我在空中完成几个翻转或转体，自认为跳得不错，但因为高速旋转，根本看不清自己的动作，一切都很模糊。

This is something I learned to do as springboard diver, where I would take off and I'm doing a few flips or twists, and I think my dive is good, but I can't see it because I'm hurling in midair and everything's a blur.

所以我必须依赖教练告诉我，这一跳究竟怎么样。

So I have to rely on my coach to tell me if it was any good.

我觉得创意工作也是同样的道理。

I feel like creative work is the same way.

你离它太近了，无法知道观众会如何反应。

You're too close to it to know how the audience is gonna react to it.

是的，你不想只是为了观众而创作，但归根结底，你希望它对观众有趣或有用。

And yes, you don't wanna create it just for the audience, but at the end of the day, you want it to be interesting or useful to them.

所以我要求他们给出0到10的评分，但从来没有人给10分。

So I asked for the zero to 10, and no one ever says 10.

然后我用这个评分作为校准机制。

And then I use that as a calibration mechanism.

如果所有人都给出7分或8分，我就知道我有了一个有潜力的方向，现在需要进一步打磨。

So if everybody is in the seven or eight range, I know that I'm onto something promising and now I need to refine it.

如果我收到一堆2分、3分、3.5分，我就需要重新思考这个想法，或者彻底改写它的表达方式。

If I get a bunch of twos, threes, three and a halfs, I either need to rethink the idea or dramatically rewrite how I'm positioning it.

我认为很多人犯的一个错误是，他们知道自己需要对他人的想法获得反馈。

And I think one of the mistakes a lot of people make is they know they need feedback on their ideas.

他们只找一两个人征求意见，稍微感到有点防御或被威胁，自我就介入了，于是再也不去寻求更多反馈。

They go to one or two people and they start to feel a little bit defensive or threatened and their ego gets involved and then they don't ask for any more.

他们没意识到，其实获得更多的反馈反而没那么痛苦。

What they don't realize is it's actually less painful if you get more feedback.

因为当八个人对你的作品提出批评时，你会开始意识到，那些让你有点受伤的评论只是个人偏好，其他人根本不在意这些问题。

Because when eight different people critique your work, you start to realize that a few of the comments that sort of bruise you a little bit were just idiosyncratic and no one else cared about those issues.

但如果有五个人都提出了同样的问题，那就不只是品味差异了。

But then five people had the same problem, Like that is not taste.

那是质量上的问题。

That is a quality issue.

我必须专注于解决这些问题。

And I've got to focus on that.

因此，这真的有助于筛选出我需要做出哪些修改。

And so it really helps to filter what are the revisions I need to make?

哪些问题和抱怨是我需要重视的，而哪些我可以忽略，因为也许这个产品本来就不适合那个人？

What are the problems and complaints I need to pay attention to versus what can I ignore because maybe this product was not for that person?

我想起我做博士后的时候，有一篇论文已经完全准备好了，而我当时所在的实验室，研究内容和我的博士后导师并不一致。

I'm recalling when I was a postdoc, I had a manuscript fully prepared, and I worked in a laboratory where I didn't work on the same thing as my postdoc advisor.

他非常大度地允许我成为那个特立独行的人。

He was very gracious in letting me be the outlier.

他说：‘我对这个领域一无所知。’

And he said, well, I don't know anything about this topic.

所以在你把论文投给这家相当知名、坦白说非常知名的期刊之前，我实话告诉你，你最好去走廊那头找一下某某人。

So before you submit it to this fairly prestigious, very frankly, very prestigious journal, I'll be honest, you should probably go down the hall and hand it to so and so.

我不想点名是谁，因为我现在还在同一个系里。

I don't want to mention who it was because I'm still in the same department.

我把论文给了他，他看了看，说：‘是的，看起来挺有意思，但我认为这不会引起太多关注。’

And I gave it to him, this individual, and he looked at it and he said, yeah, you know, it looks interesting, but I don't think there's gonna be a whole lot of interest in this.

就是完全不怎么样。

It's just like not.

我当时心想：‘这怎么可能。’

I was like, no way.

我觉得这真的很酷，但我当时很沮丧。

Like this I think this is really cool, but I was pretty dismayed.

所以我心想：天哪。

So I was like, oh, gosh.

那我该怎么办？

So what do I do?

于是我回到导师那里，幸运的是，他有点特立独行，他说：你得到的这番反馈其实是最好的。

So I went back to my adviser and thankfully, he's a bit of an iconoclast, and he said, that's the best feedback you could have gotten.

一定要把论文投给那本期刊。

Definitely submit it to that particular journal.

我必须说，这篇论文的录用速度比其他任何论文都快。

And I must say that paper got accepted faster than any other paper.

我从未有过这样的经历。

I've never had an experience like that.

我的意思是，它确实需要一些修改。

I mean, it required some revisions.

我记得当时想，哇，这真是个奇怪的回应——在我被要求去请教一位资深同事之后，居然得到这样的反馈？

I remember thinking like, wow, what an unusual response to, after having instructed me to go ask a more senior colleague, right?

当时他还是助理教授，收到几乎是负面的反馈后，反而建议我一定要投稿，这给我上了一课：有时候，面对负面反馈，你反而需要反其道而行之。

He was at that time an assistant professor, and then to get the essentially negative response, and then to take that as like, you should definitely send it out, really taught me a lesson that sometimes one needs to invert their action according to the negative feedback they get.

不总是这样，但那次是个孤例。

Not always, but that was an N of one.

明白了。

Okay.

所以这不能推广到太多情境，但它让我意识到，自己在提交东西之前，不必频繁地去征求他人意见。

So it's not shouldn't be extrapolated to too many circumstances, but basically led me to not seek out feedback prior to submission of things terribly often.

我的意思是，当然在做播客前要核实信息，也要检查播客和论文中信息的准确性，但这件事让我明白，人们的观点可能非常独特，有时甚至是完全错误的。

I mean, check information obviously prior to podcasts, check the validity of the information in podcasts and papers, but it made me realize that people's opinions can be like highly idiosyncratic and in some cases outright wrong.

真正决定论文能否被接受的，其实是期刊本身的意见。

Really the opinion of the journal is what mattered most in terms of getting it accepted or not.

所以你是说，要把东西给最多的人看，但如果像社交媒体上的评论一样，负面评论往往更显眼，该怎么办？

So how do you, you said give it to the greatest number of people, but if it's anything like comments on social media, there's a salience to negative comments.

那么，我们该如何区分正面和负面的反馈呢？

So how should we filter positive versus negative feedback?

嗯，这里有一项元分析。

Well, there's a meta analysis here.

这是Kluger和Denisi对过去一百年反馈研究的分析。

This is Kluger and Denisi looking at one hundred years of feedback research.

他们发现，反馈的效用并不取决于它是正面还是负面的。

And they found that what drives the utility of feedback is not whether it's positive or negative.

而在于它是聚焦于任务本身还是聚焦于个人。

It's whether it focuses on the task or on the self.

如果我告诉你你的工作很糟糕，你会变得防御性。

So, if I tell you that your work is terrible, you're going to get defensive.

如果我告诉你你的工作很棒，你会变得自满。

If I tell you that your work is great, you're going get complacent.

如果我告诉你我具体喜欢你工作中的哪一点，你会努力学习并重复那个优点。

If I tell you here's the specific thing that I liked about your work, you're going to try to learn to repeat that.

如果我告诉你我不喜欢的地方，你会试着去修复它。

And if I tell you here's the thing I didn't like, you're going to try to see if you can fix it.

所以，我实际上认为我们不应该太在意反馈是鼓励性的还是打击性的，而应该更多地关注如何确保获得能帮助我发挥优势、克服弱点的反馈。

So I actually think we should worry less about whether the feedback is encouraging or discouraging and more about how do I make sure that I get input that's gonna allow me to learn from my strengths and also overcome my weaknesses.

事实上，我最近学到的一点是，目前越来越多的证据表明，主动寻求反馈并不是让人帮助你的最佳方式。

And actually one of the things I've learned recently is there's some I would say a growing body of evidence at this point that asking for feedback is not the best way to get people to help you.

因为当你寻求反馈时，你会得到两类人。

Because when you ask for feedback you end up getting two groups of people.

一类是为你加油的人，另一类是批评你的人。

You get cheerleaders and you get critics.

为你加油的人本质上是在为你最好的一面鼓掌。

And cheerleaders are basically applauding your best self.

批评你的人则是在攻击你最差的一面。

Critics are attacking your worst self.

你需要的是一位教练，一个能帮助你成为更好自我的人。

What you want is a coach, which is somebody who helps you become a better version of yourself.

让人愿意指导你的方法，不是说‘给我一些反馈’，因为那样他们会回顾过去，告诉你哪里做错了或哪里做对了。

And the way you get people to coach you is not to say give me feedback because they will then look at the past and tell you what you screwed up or what you did right.

你真正应该说的是：‘下次你能给我一些建议吗？’

What you want is to say can you give me advice for next time?

这样他们就会着眼于未来，给你一些关于该延续或该改进的建议。

And then they look at the future and they'll give you either a note on something to repeat or something to correct.

这种转变非常微妙，却能带来巨大差异。

And this is such a subtle shift that it can make a big difference.

安德鲁，我发现我自己经常把这种方法用在演讲之后。

Andrew one of the things I guess I found myself applying this to a lot is after giving speeches.

我以前下台后会说：‘我很想听听你的反馈。’

I used to get off stage and say I'd love some feedback.

然后你会得到一堆‘哦，我真的很喜欢那次演讲’这样的回应。

And you get back a bunch of oh you know I really enjoyed that.

谢谢。

Thanks.

我该怎么利用这些信息呢？

What do I do with that information.

我正努力学习如何变得更好。

I'm trying to learn how to get better.

当我把问题改成‘下次我该怎么做才能更好’时。

And when I shift the question to say what's the one thing I could do better next time.

他们会说：哦，别一上来就讲笑话。

It's like oh don't open with a joke.

观众根本没意识到你在开玩笑。

The audience couldn't tell you were joking.

经常他们会说：给我更多一条清晰的主线。

Frequently it's give me a little bit more of a through line.

你讲了很多有趣的点，但我失去了其中的连贯性。

You focused a lot on a bunch of interesting points, but I lost the connective tissue.

当你只是请求一个建议，而不是要求评价时，这些可操作的建议更有可能出现。

And those actionable suggestions are much more likely to come when you just ask for a tip as opposed to evaluation.

哦，这太棒了。

Oh, that's so good.

我想我得暂停一下。

I think I'm going to just pause for a second.

我从来没停过。

Never taken a pause.

说实话，我偶尔会暂停，但非常罕见，观众都知道。

I've taken occasional pause, to be honest, but they're very rare as the audience knows.

哦，这简直是价值连城的建议，因为我觉得每个人都有自尊心。

Oh, that's just gazillion dollar advice because I think that everyone has an ego.

我们都希望表现得好。

We all want to perform well.

我们都希望随着时间推移表现得更好，而负面反馈会让人受伤，根据我们防御心理的强弱，伤痛程度也有所不同，但你刚才描述的这种工具，能帮我们卸下一些与生俱来的防御盔甲，真正以建设性的方式接纳信息，这真是太好了。

We'd like to perform better over time and negative feedback hurts and it can hurt a little or a lot depending on how defensive we are, but a tool like you just described to remove some of that defensive armor that we all have and actually let the information in in a way that's constructive is really great.

你所描述的，我认为是一种创造建设性批评的方式，但真正的建设性其实源自内心。

What you described, I think is a way to create constructive criticism, but the constructive part is really coming from within.

是的

Yeah.

而不是说，我希望得到一些建设性的批评，然后指望这些批评真的具有建设性。

As opposed to saying, I'd like some constructive criticism and then hoping that the criticism is actually constructive.

所以你以一种健康、善意的方式掌握了这个过程。

So you're taking control over the process in a healthy way, in a benevolent way.

这就是目标。

That's the goal.

我认为这时候很多人会提出一个大问题：好吧，我让别人给我建议，但这些建议可能还是很糟糕。

And I think the big question that comes up for a lot of people at this point is, okay, so I get somebody to give me advice, but it might still stink.

我该如何更好地以建设性的方式接受它呢？

How do I get better at taking it constructively?

我认为我最喜欢的一个技巧是向希拉·基恩学到的。

And I think probably my favorite technique on this I learned from Sheila Keen.

她称之为‘第二轮评分’。

She calls it the second score.

这个想法是，当别人给你一些建议时，那就是你的第一分。

And the idea is that when somebody gives you a piece of criticism, that's your first score.

比如说，在我的世界里，他们给了我3.5分，我想知道下次怎么才能做得更好。

So let's say, in my world, they gave me a 3.5, and I want to know how I can do better next time.

我该怎么让自己专注于这一点呢？

How do I get myself to focus on that?

我做的方法是：我要为我如何接受这3.5分打一个10分。

What I do is say, I want to get a 10 for how well I took the 3.5.

这就是第二分。

And that's the second score.

我想评估的是自己如何很好地接受了第一分。

I want to evaluate myself on how well I took the first score.

我几乎每天都会想到这一点。

I think about this almost every day.

其实，我可以给你讲个小故事吗？

There was actually, can I tell you a quick story?

我刚拿到博士学位时，被邀请去为空军将军和上校们讲授一门关于动机的课程。

So, when I was right out of my doctorate, I got asked to teach a motivation class for Air Force generals and colonels.

我当时25岁，我想。

I was 25, I think.

二十五六岁吧。

Twenty five, twenty six.

你知道，他们年龄都是我的两倍。

You know, they're all twice my age.

他们都有数千小时的飞行经验。

They've got thousands of flying hours.

他们掌管着数十亿美元的预算。

They've got billion dollar budgets.

他们对这个圈子很熟悉，他们的绰号叫‘斯特赖克’和‘沙丘’。

They've got, Well you know this community well, their nicknames are Stryker and Sand Dune.

我当时非常紧张。

And I was extremely intimidated.

所以我走进去的时候，以为必须让他们对我印象深刻，于是开始谈论我的资历和研究经验。

So I walked in there and I thought I had to impress them and I started talking about my credentials and all my research experience.

四小时课程结束后的反馈非常严厉。

And the feedback at the end of the four hour session was brutal.

我记得看过反馈表，有一个人写道：‘台下观众的知识比台上讲师还多。’

I remember reading the feedback forms and one person had written, more knowledge in the audience than on the podium.

确实如此。

True.

我无法反驳这一点。

I can't argue with that.

还有一个人写道：‘我从这堂课里一无所获，但我相信讲师自己获得了有用的洞察。’

And then another wrote, I gained nothing from this session, but I trust the instructor gained useful insight.

这让我深受打击。

And that was devastating.

我当时想，我真希望能变成一只真正的熊，躲起来冬眠四个月，然后再从洞里出来，准备好重新面对这一切？

I was like, can I I would really like to transform into an actual bear and hibernate for the next four months and then maybe I'll come out of a hole ready to hear this?

我没有这个选择。

I didn't have that option.

我已经承诺了要在一周后再次授课。

I had committed to teach a second session a week later.

所以我只能想办法去认真倾听这些反馈。

So all I could do was figure out how am I going to hear this feedback and really take it seriously.

我想我采用了第二种评分方式，心想：好吧，肯定会有几位将军回来再看我，我必须让他们知道我愿意接受反馈。

And I guess I applied a version of the second score and I said, alright, there's some generals that are going to come back and see me again and I've got to prove to them that I was open to feedback.

我清楚地听到的一点是，他们看重谦逊，而我一开始表现得过于自信，那其实只是掩饰内心的不安全感。

And one of the things I heard loud and clear was that they valued humility, and I had led with too much confidence, which was just insecurity masked.

于是我心想：好吧，我该怎么改变这个局面？

And so I thought, Okay, how do I change the equation?

我走进教室，环顾四周，说：我知道你们现在都在想什么。

And walked in, looked at the room, and I said, I know what you're all thinking right now.

一个才12岁的教授，我能从他身上学到什么？

What could I possibly learn from a professor who's 12 years old?

一片死寂。

Dead silence.

天哪。

Oh no.

这下要搞砸了。

This is going to go horribly wrong.

然后观众中一个人插话说：‘这太荒谬了。’

And then one of the guys in the audience jumps in and he's like Oh that's ridiculous.

你至少得13岁。

You've to be at least 13.

大家都笑了起来。

Everybody started laughing.

气氛一下子缓和了。

It broke the ice.

我想我当时想做的，是把自己从神坛上请下来，说：听吧，我听到了你们的反馈。

And I think what I was trying to do was to take myself off the pedestal and say look I heard your feedback.

你告诉我，你觉得我没什么可以教你的，我必须一开始就承认这一点。

You told me that you didn't think I had anything to teach you and I've got to acknowledge that right up front.

并且坦然接受这个事实是真的。

And be open to the fact that that's true.

所以我希望来到这里向你们学习，并且看看能否促成一场让我们所有人都能有所收获的对话。

And so I want to come in here and learn from you and I want to see if I can curate a conversation where we all end up learning.

而反馈的差异简直是天壤之别。

And the feedback was night and day different.

之后有一个人写道：尽管这位教授年轻且缺乏经验，但他处理证据的方式很有意思。

Afterward one person wrote although junior inexperienced the professor dealt with the evidence in an interesting way.

我说：好吧，我接受这个评价。

I said all right I'll take it.

当我坦诚地说：你知道，我无法改变他们讨厌我讲座的事实时，这背后有一种强大的力量。

And there was something really powerful about saying look you know I can't change the fact that they hated my session.

我能做的，是让他们相信我确实有意愿从他们的批评中学习。

What I can do is convince them that I was motivated to learn from their criticism.

我非常喜欢‘第二分数’这个概念，感谢你分享这个故事。

I love this concept of the second score, and thank you for sharing that story.

我想，我们经常听到像你这样的人的故事，如果你没注意到前面提到的数学细节，你25岁就拿到了博士学位。

I think, you know, very often we hear about people like you who, if people didn't catch the math in there, you were a PhD by age 25.

据我所知，你28岁就成了宾夕法尼亚大学最年轻的终身教授。

And as far as I know, the youngest tenured professor at Penn at 28.

这些成就的指标确实惊人、令人惊叹，但你愿意分享自己表现不佳的经历，以及如何调整并接纳你所说的‘第二分数’，这真的非常宝贵，因为尽管我们经常听到，比如乔丹投进了多少次罚球，大家只记得他命中的那些球。

So, are outrageous, outrageously impressive metrics of accomplishment, but for you to share a story about less than optimal performance and how you adjusted to it and the incorporation of the second score that you're referring to, think is really appreciated because I think that as much as we hear, you know, oh, you know, Jordan, you know, took many more, you know, free throws and everyone just thinks about all the ones he made.

人们只记得他命中的那些球。

You know, people think about all the ones he made.

这就是比赛的运作方式。

That's the way the game works.

我该说，这就是人类思维的运作方式。

That's the way the mind works, I should say.

所以，我很感谢你用个人经历把这个概念具体化了。

So it's, I appreciate that you've fleshed it out with a personal example.

我也想变成一只熊躲起来，但你所做到的真的令人印象深刻。

I too would want to turn into a bear and disappear, think but that it's really impressive what you did.

这让我想到，把三分半提升到十分的第二分数，对吧？

And it makes me think that the second score of getting a 10 at bringing the three and a half up, right?

换句话说，这实际上是把分数转化为一个动态的过程。

As it were, is really about turning a score into a verb process.

在我做这个播客以及在课堂上教学的过程中，我反复回到这样一个想法：我们应该更多关注动词，而不是名词。

Over and over again, as I do this podcast and as I've taught in the classroom, what I keep coming back to is this idea that we should be focusing more on verbs and less on nouns.

我们喜欢给事物命名和分类，但当我们开始以动词的过程来生活时，比如不再只是‘保持健康’，而是真正去‘跑步’，对吧？

We love to name things and categorize them, when we start living life through a lot of verb processes, so instead of being fit, and we think about that, you know, or running as a thing, we really think about like just running, right?

这样就会显得不那么令人生畏，我们也能取得更多成就。

It becomes less daunting and we accomplish far more.

但这个想法——我知道肯定有数学模型可以描述它——你实际上是在谈论一种积分，而不是某个静态的数值，对吧？

But the idea that, you know, and this has, there are mathematical models of this, I'm sure, but where you're basically talking about, you know, like an integral, right, as opposed to just some value, right?

你谈论的是这条线的斜率，对吧？

You're talking about the slope of the line, right?

所以你是一个3.5分，你打算怎么达到10分呢？

So you're a three and a half, how are you going to get to a 10?

天啊，这个差距太大了。

Gosh, that's a huge gap.

你还要应对来自这些成就卓著的人的大量负面反馈，心理上处于被动状态，他们还几乎把所有这些头衔和成就都戴在身上。

And you're dealing with being back on your heels psychologically from getting all this battering feedback from these highly accomplished individuals, all these accoutrements and literally wearing them presumably on their body.

所以你要看到，关键在于从3分开始掌控这条线的走向。

So you to see, and it's really about creating, it's about taking control of the slope of that line from the three onward.

这是一种面向未来的视角。

And it's really a forward looking perspective.

我认为我们在这里并没有过度心理化或过度分析。

So I don't think we're being unduly psychological here or analytic.

我的意思是，这其实关乎将一个瞬间的状态和名词转化为一个动词。

I mean, I think it's really about taking a moment state and a noun and turning it into a verb.

是的，我认为这是对的。

Yeah, I think that's right.

我想到伟大的哲学家荷马·辛普森，他曾说过，把名词变成动词会让语言变得奇怪。

I'm reminded of the great philosopher Homer Simpson, who said that verbing weirds language.

所以用语言来讨论这件事变得困难。

So it's harder to talk about I this stuff in

我发誓我没从《辛普森一家》里抄的，但如果真是荷马·辛普森说的，那也完全没问题。

swear I didn't steal it from the Simpsons, but if it came from Homer Simpson, like, all for it.

你有

You you have

要我说，那就是

to I mean, that's

小脑。

the Small brain.

不可思议。

Incredible.

小脑，但你知道，考虑到他的大脑尺寸——人们都见过那个图，他的知识量其实相当丰富。

Small brain, but, you know, given the size of his brain and people have seen the image, you know, fairly robust knowledge.

不。

No.

我觉得你抓住重点了。

Think I think you're onto something.

我觉得动词是主动的，我们会被它们吸引。

I think verbs are active, and we're we're drawn to them.

我觉得是的。

I think yeah.

很多时候，人们回顾自己过去的作品时，会羞辱过去的自己，并沉溺于反复思虑。

A lot of times people review their past work, and they just like they end up shaming an earlier version of themselves and they wallow in rumination.

在这种情况下，我们试图做到的是——虽然说起来容易做起来难——告诉自己：获得反馈或建议的目的不是羞辱过去的自己，而是教育未来的自己。

And what we want to try to do in that situation which is easier said than done is to say, alright, the purpose of getting feedback or advice is not to shame my past self, it's to educate my future self.

我认为这与你一直谈论的大量成长型思维研究密切相关。

Which I think is very connected to a lot of the work on growth mindset that you've been talking about.

最近，关于我们是否能在学校教授成长型思维，引发了巨大的争议。

And there's been a firestorm of controversy around can we teach growth mindset in schools lately?

我认为这让我深刻认识到，你不能指望别人听一期播客节目，或参加一次研讨会，就能神奇地相信自己随时都能学会任何东西。

And I think what that has underscored for me is, look, you can't expect someone to listen to one podcast episode, or go through one workshop, and magically believe that they're capable of learning anything at any moment.

这是我们必须每天积极努力的事情，而做到这一点的一部分，正如你所说，就是要思考这种失误并告诉自己，我要超越的是过去的自己，我希望今天能比昨天进步一点点。

This is something we have to actively work on on a daily basis, and part of doing that, exactly as you said, is thinking about this slip and saying, all right, the person that I'm, you know, I'm competing with is my past self, and I want to get a little bit better today than I was yesterday.

是的，关于成长型思维，我们都知道卡罗尔·德韦克，并且非常尊敬她。

Yeah, I think along the lines of growth mindset, obviously we both know Carol Dweck, and respect her tremendously.

我也意识到，现在围绕如何有效教授或融入成长型思维存在一些争议。

And I I realized there is some controversy now around how, you know, readily one can teach growth mindset or incorporate growth mindset.

我的理解是，当德韦克的研究与阿里·克拉姆的一些工作相结合时——也就是成长型思维与知识相结合，仅仅是对压力和焦虑、紧张感实际上能提升表现这一基本且真实的理解——我很想听听您对此的看法。

My understanding, and I'd love to know your thoughts on this is that when the Dweck work is combined with some of the Ali Crum work that is growth mindset is combined with knowledge, just a basic and true understanding that stress and the feelings of anxiety and tension that can actually be performance enhancing.

当这两者结合时，我认为这正是德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校的大卫·耶格尔及其同事的研究所表明的，成长型思维确实在我们的心态和表现中变得更加显著。

When those two things are combined, I think this is the work of David Yeager and colleagues at UT Austin, that indeed growth mindset becomes more visible in our mindsets and performance.

那么，成长型思维以及其他现在被纳入该框架的心态，是否还有其他方面能带来帮助呢？

And are there other aspects to growth mindset and other mindsets that are now being woven into that framework that can be helpful?

因为我知道，天哪，如果说心理学领域有什么绝佳的名称，'成长型思维'就是其中之一——它仅凭名称就告诉了你想要的一切、需要的一切，以及你大致需要了解的一切，但我们所有人都发现难以付诸实践。

Because I know, gosh, if ever there was a great name for area of psychology growth mindset, it tells you everything you want, everything you need and everything you sort of need to know in just the name, but we all find it difficult to implement.