优化线粒体功能，提升能量与长寿 | Martin Picard博士

就目前而言，我不知道有研究探讨过关于主观能量或行动力的问题——这个话题我们稍后可能会深入讨论——但科学家们已经研究过其他更易量化的问题。在生物医学领域，我们通常选择那些能够客观测量的指标，比如通过凝胶电泳分析、基因测序或临床生物标志物来具体化研究对象。

I at a given don't know of studies that have asked that question about subjective energy, or the energy to do stuff, which I think we'll talk more about, but people have looked at other more tractable, which what we do in biomedicine, we take things that we can measure objectively or run on a gel or sequence or objectify with a biomarker in the clinic.

人们研究过长寿遗传性，对吧？

People have looked at longevity, right?

如果你的母亲长寿或父亲长寿，你更可能继承哪一方的长寿基因？

Are you more likely to live long if your mom lived long or if your dad lived long?

事实证明，长寿的遗传特征更多来自母系而非父系。

Turns out the heritability of longevity is more maternal than paternal.

如果你的母亲或父亲患有精神疾病、帕金森或阿尔茨海默症，你更可能遗传哪一方的患病倾向？

Are you more likely to have a mental health disorder or to have Parkinson's or Alzheimer's if your mom or your dad had it?

有证据表明这些病症的母系遗传概率高于父系遗传。

Some evidence say it's more maternally inherited than paternally inherited.

这意味着你能否健康长寿，或你对这些疾病的抵抗力强弱，很可能确实与线粒体功能——即你转化能量的能力——密切相关。

So it could be that part of your ability to live a long, healthy life or your risk or your resilience, right, to those disorders really are conveyed or carried by mitochondria, by your ability to transform energy.

从进化角度看，线粒体需要单亲遗传（只继承母亲线粒体）的原因，学界普遍认为是为了确保母体与胎儿之间形成高度匹配的代谢能量系统。

And the reason why through evolution, you need parental inheritance, you get your mitochondria from a single parent, has developed, most people think is because there needs to be a really close metabolic energetic match between the mom and the baby.

婴儿出生后，如果母亲有某种特定的新陈代谢类型——要知道我们每个人在能量代谢方面都大不相同，这点我希望我们能详细讨论——我们在这方面都差异显著。

The baby comes out, and then if the mom has a certain type of metabolism, and we're all different, I hope we talk about how different we are energetically, metabolically, so we're all very different.

如果出生的婴儿与母亲的新陈代谢差异过大，就有可能出现不匹配的情况，对吧？

If the baby that was born was so metabolically different than the mom, there's a chance that there'd be a mismatch, right?

从历史上看，母乳喂养是婴儿存活的关键，如果母亲因此无法提供支持，那将是一场灾难。

And then the mom wouldn't be able to support through breastfeeding, historically, that's how babies survived, and that would be a catastrophe.

所以，让婴儿的新陈代谢与母亲高度匹配可能是种良好机制，因为他们继承了与母亲相同的线粒体。

So, it's probably a good system to have baby metabolism match pretty closely because they have the same mitochondria as the mom to mom metabolism.

所以我认为这是个不太严谨的假设，但确实很有道理。

So that's, I think, a loose hypothesis, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

确实很有道理。

It does make a lot of sense.

你体内的每个线粒体——无论是脑线粒体、神经元线粒体、星形胶质细胞线粒体、你最喜欢的任何细胞类型，还是心脏线粒体、肝脏线粒体、肌肉线粒体——它们都大不相同。

Every mitochondria you have in your body, like the brain mitochondria, neuron mitochondria, astrocyte mitochondria, whatever your favorite cell type is, your heart mitochondria, liver mitochondria, muscle mitochondria, they're very different.

现在我们有了新的研究方法。

And now we have a new method.

我们团队有位杰出的科学家安娜·曼齐尔，她开发了一种分析不同类型线粒体的方法。

There's a wonderful scientist in our group, Anna Manzil, who's developed a method to profile different types of mitochondria.

我们称之为线粒体分型，就像现在神经科学或免疫学中，笼统地谈论脑细胞或免疫细胞已毫无意义。

We call this mitotyping, the same way that now in neuroscience or in immunology, it makes no sense to talk about a brain cell or like an immune cell.

如果你是个有自尊的免疫学家，你会清楚细胞类型至少有30种不同分类。

If you're a self respecting immunologist, you know your cell types and there's at least 30 different types.

因此，我认为线粒体科学现在也需要达到类似的细分水平。

So, I think we're at this point in mitochondrial science where we need to adopt a similar level of specificity.

线粒体存在不同类型。

There are different types of mitochondria.

我们称这些为线粒体型。

We call those mitotypes.

它们全都源自卵子中的同一种线粒体型，对吧？

And they emerge, all of them, from the same mitotype in the egg, right?

就是母亲携带并从卵巢排出的那颗卵子。

The egg that the mother carries and releases from the ovary.

那颗卵子中大约有50万个线粒体。

There's about half a million mitochondria in that egg.

而这些线粒体最初只有单一类型。

And then those mitochondria, there's a single type of mitochondria in there.

当卵子受精后，发育过程就会以这种美妙的方式展开。

And then when it's fertilized, development happens in this beautiful process.

在这个过程中，随着心脏、大脑和肌肉开始形成，线粒体也会发生分化。

And through that process, as the heart starts to form, the brain starts to form, the muscles start to form, the mitochondria differentiate.

最终你会得到适应并匹配不同器官细胞类型需求的多种线粒体。

And then you end up with different types of mitochondria that are adapted and matched to the different demands of cell types of organs.

我们思考这个问题的一种方式是，将线粒体视为社会性生物体非常有意义。

And one way we think about this is I think it makes a lot of sense to think about mitochondria as social organisms.

线粒体生物学的多个特征都符合行为社会科学家所定义的社会性特征。

And there are multiple features of mitochondrial biology that obey what a behavioral social scientist classify as social.

比如研究蚂蚁时，我们知道它们是社会性生物，因为它们会形成群体，对吧？

If you study ants, for example, there's a few rules that we know ants are social creatures because they form groups, right?

而且它们有不同的类型。

And there are different types.

存在劳动分工。

There's division of labor.

有辛勤工作的工蚁，也有体型圆胖、专门保卫蚁巢的兵蚁。

You have worker ants that work really hard and you have warrior ants that are really chubby and they're here to defend the hive.

它们喜欢战斗。

They like to fight.

对，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

当你把这两种蚂蚁并排观察时，会看到瘦小灵活、极度活跃的工蚁和圆胖的兵蚁。

So those two types of ants, you look at them side by side, there's this little flimsy, super active worker ant and then this chubby warrior ant.

从基因上讲它们是相同的。

Genetically they're identical.

它们拥有相同的基因组。

They have the same genome.

它们作为幼虫从蚁后那里诞生，但形态结构却截然不同。

They came as little larvae from the queen, but their morphology is super different.

它们的行为模式也大相径庭。

Their behavior is very different.

但在发育过程中，不同的幼虫接收特定信号后，最终会分化成工蚁或兵蚁。

But through development, are cues that apply to the different larvae and then they end up becoming a worker or a worrier.

线粒体也存在类似的分化现象。

So the same kind of thing happens in mitochondria.

就像蚂蚁分两种类型，线粒体也有不同类型。

So there are different types of mitochondria, like the two types of ants.

它们存在分工协作。

There is division of labor.

例如肌肉表层（肌膜下方）和肌肉内部就分布着不同类型的线粒体。

There's some mitochondria, for example, in the muscle that are at the surface of the muscle, like just underneath the sarcolemma, the skin of the muscle cells, and then their mitochondria are inside.

我们知道肌动蛋白和肌球蛋白这些收缩蛋白就在那里发挥作用。

We are aware the actin myosin, the contractile proteins happen.

肌膜下线粒体和肌原纤维间线粒体，这两种群体的蛋白质组不同，或者说这些不同类型线粒体的分子构成存在差异。

Sub sarcolemma mitochondria and inter myofibrillar mitochondria, two populations, their proteome is different or their molecular composition of those different types of mitochondria are different.

它们的功能——ATP合成、活性氧生成、钙离子处理与释放能力——各不相同。

Their functions, ATP synthesis, reactive oxygen species production, their ability to handle calcium and release calcium is different.

它们的形态结构差异显著。

Their morphology is very different.

因此即便在单个细胞内，也存在线粒体的分工与分化现象。

So even within one cell, you get this division of labor and differentiation of mitochondria.

所有细胞中的线粒体都有生命周期，新生线粒体诞生而衰老线粒体消亡，这与群居生物的情况如出一辙。

And in every cell mitochondria have a life cycle, new mitochondria are born and old mitochondria die out, which is what happens in social creatures.

还有几个类似特征让我认为线粒体属于社会性有机体。

And there's a few other features like this that I think make mitochondria social organisms.

当你开始将线粒体视为社会性生物后，就能更好理解它们为何需要彼此融合。

And once you start to think about mitochondria as social creatures, then you understand maybe a little better why they need to fuse one another.

如果你问谷歌：线粒体长什么样？

And if ask Google, What do mitochondria look like?

无论是ChatGPT还是其他工具，展示给你的总是同一种类型的图片。

Or ChatGPT or whatever, it shows you always the same kind of images.

它就像一颗小豆子。

It's like a little bean.

你还带了一个作为礼物。

You brought one as a gift.

你刚递给我的时候，我一度以为可能是指虎，结果是个带有线粒体嵴的线粒体模型。

At one moment I thought they might be brass knuckles when you first handed them to me, it's a mitochondrion with the cristae of the mitochondria.

就是这样。

There you go.

通常看起来是这样，但你说现实中会有许多这样的线粒体紧密融合在一起。

Usually looks like this, but you're saying in reality, there'd be many of these closely fused to one another.

没错，当它们融合时，会形成豆形、肾形或花生形——随你怎么称呼——这些形状相互融合后，就形成了这些美丽的丝状结构。

Yeah, and when they fuse, you get these like bean or kidney shapes or peanut shape, whatever your preference is that fuse with one another and then they form these beautiful filaments.

所以如果你有幸在实验室工作，那里有共聚焦显微镜或光片显微镜这类高端设备，你就能让线粒体发出荧光。

So if you're lucky enough to work in a lab that has one of these cool microscopes called confocal microscope or light sheet microscopy, and then you can make the mitochondria fluorescent.

你在培养皿中加入染料，这种荧光小分子会被线粒体内部的高电荷吸引进去。

So you put a dye in the dish and then it's a little fluorescent molecule that goes inside the mitochondria, it's attracted by the big charge that mitochondria have.

然后关掉灯光，透过目镜观察，就能看到这些美丽的线粒体细丝在移动。

And then you turn out the lights, look down the eyepiece, and then you see this beautiful filaments of mitochondria moving.

它们移动得相当缓慢，有趣的是，其速度刚好处于人类感知移动的临界值。

They move pretty slowly and interestingly, they're just at the edge of human perception of how quickly we can perceive things to move.

所以它们的移动刚好快到能被看见，然后相触、完全融合。

So they move barely fast enough so you can see them, and then kiss and then confuse completely.

要么你可以邀请所有人来实验室参观，但人太多了你会忙不过来。

Either you can invite everyone to your lab to see this, but that's a lot of people, you'd be very busy.

我们会放一个相关视频的链接。

We'll put a link to a video of this.

是的，我们正在建设一个叫'线粒体生命'的网页，通过线粒体的美感帮助人们从能量角度理解自身。

Yeah, we're building a webpage called MitoLife, which is to help people understand themselves energetically through the beauty of mitochondria.

而且有各种不同类型的线粒体，它们的运动方式各不相同。

And there are all sorts of different types of mitochondria that move differently.

当线粒体不健康时，如果它们无法正常流动和转化能量，就会开始显得非常怪异。

When the mitochondria are not healthy, and if they can't flow and transform energy properly, they start to look really weird.

我突然想到，在很长一段时间里——我现在50岁了，所以可以说‘很长一段时间’了。

It occurred to me that for the longest time, I'm 50 now, so I can say for the longest time.

长久以来，我们被告知如果想要能量，就需要吃东西，对吧？

For the longest time, we heard that if we want energy, we need to eat, right?

当然我们需要睡眠，但也需要进食。

Of course we need to sleep, but we need to eat.

就像每个孩子学到的：你消耗能量是为了给身体提供燃料。

So be like And every kid learns, you're consuming energy so that you'll fuel your body.

所有这些争论——你应该吃肉，不该吃肉。

All these discussions, you should eat meat, don't eat meat.

我认为你应该适量吃肉，也要吃些蔬菜水果等等。

I believe you should eat some meat, you should eat some vegetables, some fruit, etcetera.

我觉得应该摄入脂肪。

Think you should eat fats.

是的，这是我的信念。

Some Yes, that's my belief.

但我们都明白这一点。

But we all understood that.

但后来大约十年前，人们清楚地意识到，单纯消耗更多能量并不会给你带来更多能量。

But then at some point, probably about ten years ago, it became clear to people that just consuming more energy didn't give you more energy.

这是显而易见的事情。

It was an obvious thing.

是啊。

Yeah.

但现在这一点已经非常明确了。

But it's now abundantly clear.

根据你所说的，每个人都应该清楚问题不在于系统缺乏能量输入。

And based on what you're saying, it should be clear to everyone that the issue is not lack of energy going into the system.

问题在于肥胖者或进食后感到倦怠的人群中，线粒体发生的能量转化过程出现了异常。

It's that the transformation of energy that occurs in mitochondria somehow is not happening correctly in people that are obese, or in people that are eating and feeling lethargic.

当然这其中还涉及血糖问题，我们可以讨论所有这些，但我们不会，因为这不是今天的主题。

And of course there's blood sugar aspects to this, and we could discuss all of that, and we won't, because that's not the topic for today.

但我认为至少人们可以明白，他们体内不仅有这些动力站，还有这些能量转换的发电厂，线粒体在能量如何按器官逐个转换和分配中处于核心地位，我认为这是一个有益的概念让人们理解，因为人们一直在谈论线粒体。

But I think if nothing else, that people can just understand that they have not just these powerhouses, but these power plants within their bodies that are transforming the energy, and that the mitochondria are central to how the energy is transformed and distributed on an organ by organ basis, I think that would be a helpful concept for people to get into their mind, because people are talking about mitochondria all the time.

人们总是在谈论和听说营养问题。

People are talking about and hearing about nutrition all the time.

而我们常常只考虑卡路里，你知道，大家都知道卡路里是...呃...食物燃烧时释放热量的单位，学过这些知识，但它并没有转化为良好的健康实践。

And so often we just think about calories, and you know, everyone knows that, you know, calories a unit of, you know, heat off, but when you burn a given food, learn this stuff, but it doesn't transform into good health practices.

但是

But

我认为现在人们开始了解自己身体的工作原理，而你今天补充了很多重要的细节和方面。

I think nowadays, people are starting to get a sense of how their bodies work, and you're adding a lot of important detail and aspects to that today.

所以我想先把这个框架搭好。

So I just wanted to frame that up.

嗯。

Yep.

如果你对此有任何想法，那太好了。

If you have any reflections on that, great.

如果没有，这只是我想到的一个可能有用的小观点。

If not, was just a point that came to mind that I think might be useful.

是的，这非常重要。

Yes, that's so important.

而我们本身就是能量。

And we are energy.

从根本上说，我们是流经这套生物基础设施的能量，对吧？

Fundamentally, we are the flow of energy through this biological infrastructure, right?

我们称之为身体。

That we call the body.

但你并不是那些细胞或基因，对吧？

But you are not the cells or the genes or Right?

那个东西，你更多是那股流动的能量，这就是为什么当能量停止流动时，你就不复存在了。

That thing, you are much more that energy that is flowing, which is why when the energy stops flowing, you are no longer.

当你死去时，所有物质实体依然存在，但你不再拥有体验，不再作为一个人存在。

When you die, all the physical stuff remains, but you no longer have an experience, you no longer exist as a person.

我对这个问题的思考方式是：与其用名词思考，不如用动词思考。

The way I think about this is rather than thinking in nouns, think in verbs.

我认为作为生物学家，当我们教授生物学时，必须教授一些名词，一些事物的名称。

And I think as biologists, when we teach biology, you have to teach some nouns, some names of things.

但如果你能让人们把动词作为概念来理解，那抵得上无数个名词。

But if you can get people to understand the verbs as concepts, it's worth a gazillion nouns.

所以我认为人们把自己视为能量转化的动词状态，听起来很神秘，但其实并不神秘，这是生物化学过程。

And so I think people thinking about themselves as a verb state of as energy transformation being, it sounds so mystical, but it's not mystical, it's biochemical.

确实如此。

It is.

我认为这可能会有帮助。

I think could be useful.

顺着这个思路，我想谈谈你最近发表的那篇论文，我的理解是它研究了不同脑区，发现不同脑区含有不同浓度的线粒体。

Along those lines, I do want to talk about this recent paper that you published, which essentially, my understanding is that looked at different brain areas and found that different brain areas have different concentrations of mitochondria.

我们知道身体不同部位和不同器官中的线粒体浓度各不相同。

And we know that different body areas and different organs have different concentrations of mitochondria.

但我听你在某处说过——这是个非常美妙且引人深思的话题——或许我们在生活中所做的事，无论是举重、学习生物、弹钢琴，还是某些活动的组合，都会特别丰富某些器官和大脑区域的线粒体（这些能量转化场所）的数量。

But I heard you say someplace, and this is such a beautiful sticky topic, as they say, that perhaps the things we do in life, maybe lift weights, maybe study biology, maybe play the piano, maybe some combination of things, will enrich the mitochondria, these energy transformation sites, in particular organs and areas of our brain more than others.

因此我们实际上会成为我们所关注事物的化身。

And so we really become what we pay attention to.

我们会因所做的事而得到相应强化。

We become enhanced for what we do.

这在耐力跑者身上体现得很明显：他们不断奔跑，肌肉随之改变，整个身体都为跑步而优化；举重运动员则发展出另一套适应机制。

And that makes sense at the level of endurance runners run, and their muscles become, and everything becomes optimized for running, weightlifters, something else.

但大脑层面的变化就格外有趣了。

But in the brain, this gets very interesting.

这意味着如果我们读诗或学习生物学，负责这些功能的大脑区域和回路在某种意义上会变得更擅长处理这些事务。

This means that if we read poetry, for instance, or study biology, that the areas and circuits of the brain that are responsible for that, in some sense, become better at doing that.

我认为这是个非常重要的议题，因为它直指我们作为个体的本质——这种本质正是基于我们对'做什么'与'不做什么'的选择而形成的。

And I think this is a very important topic, because it really gets to the essence of who we are as individuals based on our choices of what to do and what not to do.

基于这样的背景，如果你能给我们讲讲这篇论文，谈谈你对这些发现的看法以及它们可能意味着什么，我会非常乐意听。

So with that as the backdrop, if you could tell us about this paper and tell us about what you think about these findings and what they might mean, I would love that.

我们是能量流动的过程，对吧？

We flow as energetic processes, right?

正如你所说，我们是转化过程。

To your point, we are transformative processes.

我们转化，我们流动，我们就是流动的能量。

We transform, we flow, we are the energy that flows.

你越是把能量导向某个区域，对吧？

And the more you direct energy to one area, right?

如果你去健身房做二头肌弯举，你在收缩时就是在抵抗能量流动，然后你重复几次这个动作。

If you go to the gym and you do bicep curls, you're resisting the flow of energy while you're contracting, and then you do this a few times.

然后当你放松时，就会获得，比如说，血流增加。

And then when you let go, you get, like, blood flow.

对吧？

Right?

能量在系统中流动。

Energy flow through the system.

我们知道运动训练就是一个很好的例子。

And we know exercise training is a beautiful example.

比如，如果你接受马拉松训练，你肌肉中的线粒体数量可以翻倍。

Like, if you're trained to run a marathon, for example, you can double the number of mitochondria in your muscles.

翻倍。

Double.

对吧？

Right?

我的理解是，当能量流经现有线粒体时，你本质上是在将能量输入该系统，然后生化能量转化为分子，转化为代谢物，最终转化为蛋白质，随着能量流动，结构也随之形成。

And my understanding of this is as energy flows through the existing mitochondria, you're basically bringing your energy into that system, and then the biochemical energy get transformed into molecules, into metabolites, and then eventually into proteins, and then structure gets created as energy flows.

所以，这就是能量的流动。

So, it's the flow of energy.

首先，你要抵抗它。

First, you resist it.

我们称之为能量抵抗。

We call this energy resistance.

当你放下抵抗时，才是我们建设的时刻。

Then when you let go of resistance, that's when we build.

那是我们成长的时刻。

That's when we grow.

就是那时候，对吧？

That's when right?

阿诺德·施瓦辛格说过，肌肉在健身房被撕裂，在厨房得到喂养，在床上生长，我想是这样。

Arnold Schwarzenegger said, muscles are torn in the gym, they're fed in the kitchen and grown in bed, I think is it.

用奥地利口音说的。

In an Austrian accent.

没错。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

所以如果你将能量导向肌肉，对吧，那么引导能量的一种方式就是抵抗能量流动然后释放。

So if you direct energy towards a muscle, right, then one way to direct energy is to resist the energy flow and then to let go.

而这本质上就是锻炼的意义。

And that's what exercise fundamentally is.

你抵抗能量流动然后释放它。

You resist the energy flow and then you let go.

当你过度抵抗能量时，会感到不适，这就是那种灼烧般的疼痛。而当你释放时，成长和建设才得以发生。

When you resist energy too much, it feels uncomfortable, which is the burning pain of And then when you let go is when growth and building can happen.

我们知道同样的情况无处不在。

And we know the same thing happens everywhere.

这并非肌肉或运动生理学中神秘莫测的现象。

This is not like a mysterious thing of the muscle and of exercise physiology.

这是一条根本的生物学原理。

This is a fundamental biological principle.

如果你将能量导向某个区域，它就会成长，会变得更好，效率也会提高。

If you flow energy in one area, then it will grow, it will get better, it will get more efficient.

如果你阻断某一部位的能量流动，比如阻断血流，或者遭遇意外导致神经受损，肌肉就会停止收缩。

And if you block energy flow to one area, like you block blood flow, for example, or you get an accident and the nerve gets damaged, then the muscle doesn't contract anymore.

你基本上就是在阻断那里的能量流动。

You're basically blocking the flow of energy there.

然后会发生什么？

And what happens?

萎缩，对吧？

Atrophies, right?

当能量流动减少时，萎缩是生命活动的正常表现。

Atrophy is a normal movement of life when energy flow decreases.

如果没有能量流动，那个结构就失去了存在的意义。

And if there's no energy flow, there's no purpose for that structure.

如果你滋养、刺激那个结构，无论是肌肉还是大脑回路，对吧？

If you feed, if you stimulate that structure, be it a muscle or brain circuit, right?

大脑网络或脑区，那么自然地，该区域就会生长和发育。

A brain network or brain area, then naturally, that area should grow and build.

我们已知大脑内部以及身体不同器官之间会发生对有限能量资源的竞争，对吧？

And what we know happens in the brain and also happens between different organs of the body is there's kind of a competition for finite energy resources, right?

你之前说过，不能单纯靠多吃来获取更多能量。

What you said earlier, you can't just eat more to get more energy.

现在我们已经很清楚，如果暴饮暴食，摄入超过身体实际流动、消耗和转化的能量，就会生病。

Now we know very well, if you overeat, you eat more than your body is actually flowing, consuming in terms of energy, transforming, you get sick.

比如身体会堆积脂肪——这是应对过量饮食的良好适应性机制。

Like if you can, you put on fat, which is a good adaptive coping mechanism to eating too much.

但最终系统会不堪重负，损害线粒体功能，导致细胞产生胰岛素抵抗。

But then eventually the systems gets overwhelmed and then that hurts the mitochondria and it hurts cells to become insulin resistant.

暴饮暴食会引发各种不良后果。

And there's all sorts of consequences to eating too much.

你无法通过多吃来获得更多能量。

You cannot eat more to get more energy.

我认为这至今仍是科学界的一个重大谜题，对吧？

And that is, I think still scientifically a very big mystery, right?

那为什么我们不能直接提高能量消耗和能量转化，从而减少睡眠并每天锻炼三小时呢？

That why can't we just ramp up our energy consumption, energy transformation, and then sleep less and workout three hours every day?

即使是那些将所有精力都投入到增肌、提升技能或培养才能的职业运动员。

Even professional athletes who devote all of their energy to building muscle mass, building skills, or building aptitudes.

你的进食量是有限度的。

There's a limit to how much you can eat.

我们并不真正清楚其中的原因。

We don't really know why that is, why there's a limit to that.

因此身体运行着一套能量经济体系。

And so the body operates an economy of energy.

你拥有X数量的能量。

You have X amount of energy.

你可以在短时间内提升这个量。

You can push that up over short periods of time.

就像如果你开始锻炼并成为自行车手，参加环法自行车赛，对吧？

Like if you start to work out and you're a cyclist, you do the Tour de France, right?

那是三周时间，你每天要摄入大约五千到七千卡路里。

That's three weeks, you're going for like five, seven thousand calories a day.

你这样做三周，这就是为什么环法自行车赛不是四周或五周的原因，对吧？

You do this for three weeks, there's a reason why the Tour de France is not four weeks and five weeks, right?

存在一个上限，有漂亮的数据显示，赛事时间越长，运动员每天的最大输出就越低。

There's a cap and there's beautiful data showing that the longer the event, the athletic event, the lower the max output per day.

如果你看那条曲线，第一个点是在十秒内能产生的最大功率输出，就是你在百米冲刺中看到的那种。

And if you look at that curve, the first point max power output you can develop over ten seconds is what you see in the 100 meter sprint.

然后是400米，接着曲线下降。环法自行车赛在这里，马拉松在这里，三周的环法在这里，然后你会看到横跨美国数周的疯狂长跑。

And then you get the 400 meters and then it goes down At the very And the Tour de France is Marathon is here, Tour de France, three weeks is here, then you get crazy run across America multiple weeks.

最后是九个月的孕期。

And then at the very end, nine months, pregnancy.

孕育一个人类需要消耗能量。

And it costs energy to grow a human being.

一些数据表明，当你在九个月里孕育一个人类时，如果以九个月为周期计算，女性基本上是在以她的最大能力运作。

And some of the data suggest that when you grow a human being for nine months, the woman is basically operating at the max of her capacity if you integrate over a nine month period.

孕妇是否会积累更多线粒体，还是能量需求完全用于发育中胎儿的线粒体？

Do pregnant women accumulate more mitochondria, or the energy demands are entirely for the mitochondria of the developing fetus?

这是个好问题。

That is a good question.

我们知道怀孕期间某些脑区会增长。

We know certain brain areas grow during pregnancy.

大脑确实会重塑，没错。

That the brain remodels, exactly.

有不同的需求，对吧？

There are different demands, right?

作为母亲，怀孕后你需要开始关注不同的事情。

As a mother, if you're pregnant, now you need to start to care about different things.

这可能是适应性地开始以略微不同的方式思考世界，不再只关注自己。

Maybe it's adaptive to start to think about the world a slightly different way, and that's not just about yourself.

因此，女性大脑中确实会发生甚至持久性的脑部变化。

So there are certainly even long lasting brain changes that happen in the woman's brain.

因此，器官之间的这种能量分配机制可以解释为什么年轻女性如果运动量过大，会出现停经现象，对吧？

So, this economy of energy between organs is likely what explains if you're a young woman and you exercise a lot, you lose your menses, right?

我是闭经。

I'm inorrhea.

这并不是因为生殖系统出了问题，也不是因为卵巢生病或类似的原因。

And this is not because the reproductive system is broken or because the ovaries are sick or something like that.

我们目前最好的解释是能量不足。

The best explanation we have is there's a shortage of energy.

就像你把所有的能量预算都投入到工作肌肉中，用于在肌肉中制造更多线粒体，就没有多余的能量来维持生殖功能了。

Like you're pushing and driving all of your energy budget towards your working muscles, towards making more mitochondria in your muscles, and there's no more energy to fuel reproduction.

我有个相关的实际问题。

I have a practical question related to this.

我一直很好奇，为什么当我们感冒、流感或感染其他疾病时，会有一些生理过程让我们更加昏昏欲睡和疲惫，而这些其实是非常适应性的反应。

I have always wondered why is it that when we're coming down with a cold or a flu or some sort of other infection, that there are a bunch of processes that make us more lethargic and tired, and these are very adaptive.

没错。

Yep.

我们都知道需要休息，但这不仅仅是关于睡眠。

And we know we need to rest, but it's not just about getting sleep.

我们实际上需要减缓血液循环。

We actually need to slow our circulation down.

我们需要休息。

We need to rest.

关于感冒或流感时是该进食还是禁食，有各种理论。

And there are all these theories about do you feed or starve a cold or flu?

我在另一期节目中讨论过这个问题。

And I covered that in a different episode.

会放上链接。

Will put a link.

简而言之，虽然没有明确答案，但遵循食欲、保持水分、维持电解质平衡等是基本原则。

It's not straightforward, but follow your appetite, stay hydrated, keep your electrolytes up and so forth is the short answer.

但这是否意味着免疫系统需要更多能量，而身体作为一种保护机制、适应机制，正在告诉我们要放慢其他所有活动，专注于康复和对抗感染，而不是像平常那样消耗能量，比如上下楼梯？

But is it that the immune system needs more energy and the body as a protective mechanism, as an adaptive mechanism is saying slow down everything else and devote yourself to healing, to fighting this infection, as opposed to spending energy even walking up the stairs as much as you typically do during a day.

是这个道理吗？

Is that the idea?

是的。

Yep.

我认为这是我们目前最好的解释模型。

I think that's the best model we have.

我个人在几年前的新年期间就有过这种体验，当时我能感觉到自己在年夜饭前就要生病了。

And I had a personal experience of this over New Year's a couple years ago where I I could feel I was, you know, coming down with something before the, know, New Year's dinner.

所以那晚我早早就结束了聚会。

And so it ended up being a pretty short night.

我提前上床睡觉，但那晚非常难受。

I went to bed early, and that night was terrible.

第二天状态极差，当时我正开始写《能量》这本书。

The next day I was so off and I was starting to work on the book Energy.

然后我突然想，哦，这真是个绝佳的观察机会。

And then I thought, Oh, this is such a cool opportunity.

就像现在，我感觉精疲力竭，对吧？

Like now I'm experiencing, I'm feeling drained, right?

我躺在床上，浑身疼痛。

Like I'm in bed, everything hurts.

然后我想，我应该把这种感觉写下来，对吧？

And then I thought, I should be writing about this, right?

接着我又想，光是想到要拿电脑这个念头，其实并不需要耗费太多精力，就像动动手指敲键盘那么简单。

And then I thought, just the thought of grabbing my computer, then it shouldn't cost more It doesn't cost a lot of energy, just like wiggle my fingers on the keyboard.

但你知道，就是提不起劲。

But, you know, there was no drive.

我对自己平时在意的事情都漠不关心了。

I stopped caring about stuff that I usually care about.

对吧？

Right?

每个人真正生病时都有过这种体验。

Everyone has experienced this when you're really sick.

动力，对吧？

Motivation, right?

零。

Zero.

我作为最好的自己、保持善良的能力。

My capacity to be the best human being that I am and to be kind.

有点减退了。

A little diminished.

是啊，是啊，

Yeah, yeah,

对。

right.

就像，我只是在努力他妈地活下去，懂吗？

Just like, I was just trying to fucking survive, you know?

从生物学和线粒体角度我们知道，当你对抗这类疾病时，免疫系统会消耗大量能量。

And what we know in terms of biology and mitochondria and energy that happens when you're fighting something like this, the immune system costs a lot of energy.

所以，我认为我们对病态行为的最佳模型解释就是你描述的那样，专业术语来说，就是感觉生病了，对吧？

So, I think the best model interpretation we have of sickness behavior is what you were describing, the technical term, is you feel sick, right?

你不想动弹，感觉发冷，对吗？

And you don't want to move, you feel cold, right?

这会迫使你盖上被子或穿上衣服，避开寒冷环境。

Which then forces you to put covers or to dress, to avoid cold environments.

移动身体会疼痛，比如收缩肌肉时会出现异常性疼痛，对吧？

It hurts to move your body, like to contract muscles and there's allodynia, right?

你对疼痛变得更加敏感。

You become more sensitive to pain.

所有这些现象很可能都是为了节省你宝贵的能量预算。

All of these things likely exist in service of conserving your precious energy budget.

甚至不想吃东西，对吧？

And even not eating, right?

就像跟随你的食欲走？

Like follow your appetite?

是的。

Yes.

而且进食会消耗能量。

And eating costs energy.

生物学中没有什么是免费的。

Nothing in biology is free.

每件事都有代价。

Everything costs something.

如果你进食，现在你需要咀嚼，需要蠕动，需要胃酸分泌活动，你知道的，分泌消化酶，可能还有一些胆汁，消化过程的协调运作相当耗能。

And if you eat food, now you need to masticate, need to, like, have peristalsis, you need to have gastric acidification movement, you know, secreting digestive enzymes, maybe some bile, like, they're the orchestration of digestion is pretty expensive.

这大约占你每日能量预算的10%到15%。

It's like 10%, 15% of your daily energy budget.

所以如果你处于极限状态，这10%到15%的每日能量预算就很多了。

So that's a 10%, 15% of your daily energy budget, if you're running like a limit is a lot.

我相信现在很多人都听我说过，我服用AG1已经超过十年了，这确实是真的。

By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade, and indeed that's true.

我早在2012年就开始服用AG1，并且至今仍坚持每日服用，原因在于据我所知，AG1是市面上品质最高、营养覆盖最全面的基础型膳食补充剂。

The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day, is because AG1 is to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还包含益生菌、益生元和适应原，既能填补日常饮食的营养缺口，又能为高强度生活提供支持。

What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet while also providing support for a demanding life.

鉴于AG1所含的益生菌与益生元，它还有助于维持健康的肠道菌群。

Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.

肠道菌群由数万亿微生物组成，它们遍布消化道，影响着免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康等诸多方面。

The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.

持续服用AG1有助于我的消化功能，保持免疫系统强健，并确保我的情绪和专注力始终处于最佳状态。

Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.

AG1现已推出三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带风味。

AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical.

虽然我一直钟爱AG1的原味配方——特别是加少许柠檬汁的喝法，但我现在尤其喜欢新推出的浆果口味。

And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular.

它的味道棒极了。

It tastes great.

不过话说回来，我确实喜欢所有口味。

But then again, I do love all the flavors.

如果你想尝试AG1并体验这些新口味，可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman领取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try AG one and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

只需前往drinkag1.com/huberman即可开始。

Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.

你提到如果女性运动超过某个阈值，就会停止月经。

You mentioned that if women exercise beyond a certain threshold, they stop menstruating.

这是因为基本上没有足够的能量来维持月经。

And that it's because there's not enough energy essentially to menstruate.

有人可能会想，只要吃得足够多，就能获得足够能量。

One idea would be, well, if you just eat enough, then you have enough energy.

但我们必须用动态思维而非绝对标准来思考。

But we have to think in verb states, not absolutes.

因此我意识到，虽然人们需要通过食物摄入充足能量——这个道理同样适用于生病的情况。

And so what I'm realizing is that while one needs sufficient energy input in the form of food, and this could also be true for the example of being sick.

这是必要条件，但还不够充分，因为线粒体同时在做两件事。

It's necessary, but not sufficient because the mitochondria are doing two things.

它们将食物能量转化为身体能量用于月经、运动、锻炼、思考或关注书籍等等。

They're transforming that food energy into bodily energy to menstruate, or to move, or exercise, or think, or care about a book, etcetera.

但它们的工作不仅是转化能量，还包括分配能量。

But part of their job is not just to transform the energy, it's to distribute the energy.

而且

And

所以你实际上需要满足两个条件。

so you really need two conditions.

虽然我不是计算机科学家，但我对编程和工程有足够了解，知道这个与门的概念。

And I'm not a computer scientist, but I know enough about programming and engineering that this concept of an and gate.

系统需要输入足够的能量，同时还需要能够正确分配这些能量，才能使某些事情发生。

You need sufficient energy coming into the system, and you need to be able to distribute that energy properly in order for something to occur.

这是个与门逻辑，基本上你需要同时满足这两个条件。

It's an and gate, you need both things basically.

因此从现在开始，我将永远把线粒体不仅视为能量生产器，更是能量分配器。

So I now and forever going forward will think about mitochondria as not just energy production, but energy distribution organelles.

是的。

Yes.

多亏了你的描述方式。

Thanks to the way you described it.

现在完全能理解为什么我生病时如果没食欲，在有足够体脂储备的情况下不会强迫自己进食。

And now it makes perfect sense as to why when I'm sick, if I'm not hungry, I'm not gonna force myself to eat, provided I have enough body fat stores.

我最终还是要进食的，但在那种没有食欲的情况下感受到的虚弱或疲劳，很可能不是因为热量不足导致的。

I need to eat eventually, but whatever weakness or fatigue I feel is probably in that situation where I don't have an appetite, is probably not a lack of caloric energy driving that fatigue.

这是身体在说：'你最好别让我忙着运输食物能量，这样我才能把免疫细胞输送到需要的地方'。

It's that my body is saying, you know what, you're better off just not having me shuttle that food energy through you so I can shuttle your immune cells to the proper place.

正是如此。

Exactly.

这就是当人们说身体很聪明时所指的——系统自有一套智慧。

And this is when people say the body is smart, there's an intelligence to the system.

我认为这是对的，因为我们的大脑会想着，哦不，我要往里面塞更多能量。

I think that's true because with our brains, we think, oh no, I'll just cram more energy into that.

你需要吃东西，你需要——不，也许不需要。

You need to eat, you need to No, maybe not.

而如果我有食欲，不管别人说什么感冒要多吃、流感要饿着，或者——我就按身体告诉我的做。

Whereas if I do have an appetite, I don't care what people say about feed a cold, starve a flu, or feed a I'm just gonna do what my body tells me to.

是的，是的。

Yes, yes.

我同意，身体是明智的。

And I agree, the body is wise.

其他非人类的动物，比如你的狗，它们没有会干扰其与能量状态保持一致的思维。

Animals who don't have a very other non human animals, like your dogs, they don't have a mind to distract them from living in alignment with their energetic states.

所以当它们生病时，免疫系统——你预算中被免疫系统消耗的部分就会扩大，对吧？

So, when they're sick, the immune system just The part of your budget that gets consumed by the immune system expands, right?

所以这部分能量，这些额外的能量需要从某处挪用，因为无法通过吃更多来获得无限能量。

So, this energy, this extra energy needs to be stolen from somewhere because can't eat more to have infinite energy.

那么，这些能量从何而来？

So, where's that energy coming from?

因此，因疼痛而不收缩肌肉是一种有效方式，通过盖被子避免体温调节是另一种节能方式，然后停止关注外界事物，比如变得孤僻冷漠，这些都是疾病行为或节能策略的特征，还包括不进食。

So, not contracting your muscles because you feel in pain is a good way, not having to thermoregulate because you cover up, another way to conserve energy, and then stopping to care about stuff, like becoming asocial and apathic, and all of those features of sickness behavior or energy conserving strategies, and not eating.

如果你现在能节省10%到15%的能量，就能将其分配给免疫系统，这是个非常明智的策略。

If you can have free 10%, 15% of your energy now, you can allocate it to your immune system, that is a very good strategy.

大多数人日常携带的能量储备足够维持数周甚至数月，对吧？

Most people walk around with multiple weeks, if not months worth of energy, right?

比如皮下脂肪和腰间的赘肉。

Like under the skin and their love handles.

实际上禁食纪录保持者是位苏格兰男性，长达382天。

The record actually for not eating is from this Scottish man, three eighty two days.

他开始时很胖吗？

Was he fat when he started?

他当时非常胖。

He was very fat.

他结束时还胖吗？

Was he fat when it ended?

他减了多少体重？

He lost How much did he lost?

大概250磅，我想。

Like two fifty pounds, I think.

我看到储存的三明治了。

I saw stored sandwiches.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以，大多数人可以整整一个月不进食。

So, most people can go a full month without eating.

这或许可以回到我们之前讨论的话题。

And this maybe goes back to what we talked about earlier.

我们感受不到能量总量，对吧？

We don't feel energy quantity, right?

如果你闭上眼睛感受自己的能量，你是感觉不到身体有多少脂肪，肝脏或肌肉里有多少糖原的。

If you close your eyes and you feel your energy, like you don't feel how much fat you have on your body, how much glycogen you have in your liver or in your muscles.

你能感受到的是能量的转化。

What you feel is the transformation of energy.

神经能量。

The neural energy.

你想做个小实验吗？

Do you want to do a little experiment?

我们可以做个小实验来感受我们的能量。

We can do a little experiment to feel our energy.

当然。

Definitely.

是吗？

Yeah?

好的。

Okay.

顺便说一句，哥伦比亚医学院的一位终身教授刚刚说，你想做个小实验感受一下你的能量吗？

By the way, a tenured full professor at Columbia School of Medicine just said, Do you want to do a little experiment to feel your energy?

然后我们都闭上了眼睛，这说明现在肯定是2025年了。

And we both closed our eyes, which tells you that it's definitely 2025.

世界上已经发生了一些好事，好吧。

Good things have happened in the world, okay.

我们之所以都闭上眼睛并停止身体动作，就像冥想时那样，是因为这样能屏蔽外界干扰。

The reason we both closed our eyes and kind of stopped moving our bodies, which is kind of what you do if you want to meditate or something like this, is because it turns off the noise.

对吧？

Right?

如果你想在一个危险的物质世界中生存，就需要对可能伤害你的东西保持警觉，对吧？

And if you want to survive in a dangerous physical world, you need to be aware of like stuff that might hurt you, right?

或者杀死你。

Or kill you.

而感知身体的本体感觉等能力都需要达到非常高的水平。

And feeling your body like proprioception and all of this needs to be very high level.

它需要优先于任何内感受信号。

It needs to be prioritized over whatever interoceptive signal there are.

存在某些内感受信号，正是我们将感知到的、能够克服那些干扰的信号。

There's some interoceptive signal, that's what we'll feel into that can overcome that.

但仅仅保持身体不动、闭上眼睛，就能帮助你调谐到自身能量。

But just not moving the body, closing your eyes, it kind of helps you to tune into your energy.

我怀疑这其中蕴藏着巨大价值。

And I suspect there's a lot of value there.

是的，稍后我们会详细讨论冥想与能量恢复方面的一些惊人成果。

Yeah, we'll talk more about some incredible results about meditation and restoration of energy.

观众朋友们可以和我们一起做这个练习吗？当然前提是他们没有在开车。

Can the audience do this along with us, provided they're not driving?

可以，可以。

Yes, yes.

好的，太棒了。

Okay, great.

要达到最佳效果，你需要舒适地坐着，如果愿意的话可以闭上眼睛。

So to do this best is you're sitting comfortably and you can close your eyes if you want to.

我认为这有助于整个过程。

I think that helps with the process.

我们先深吸一口气，然后屏住呼吸一小会儿。

We'll take one breath in and then we'll hold our breath for a little bit.

吸气，呼气，你可以完全呼出，一直到底，然后屏住呼吸。

So breathing in, breathing out, and you can breathe out all the way, all the way down and then hold that breath.

最初几秒通常不会太难受，但随着屏息时间延长，去感受你的身体、腹部、胸腔和头部——不呼吸会产生什么影响？

And for the first few seconds, it's generally not too uncomfortable, but then as you hold this, feel into your body, to your belly, your chest, into your head, What's the effect of not breathing?

然后你可能会开始感到呼吸的冲动，渴望将氧气输送到身体各处，输送到你的线粒体中。

And then you start to feel maybe this urge to breathe and this desire to bring oxygen into your body, to your mitochondria.

当你需要时，就吸气，可以睁开眼睛。

And then when you need to, you take a breath in, you can open your eyes.

如果你能屏住更长时间，那就继续。

If you can hold it longer, do.

你感受到了什么？

What did you feel?

所以当我进行

So when I went to the

完全呼气并屏住呼吸时，用我们行话来说——神经科学家称之为内感受——我对皮肤以内事物的感知变得更加明显，我能越来越清晰地感受到自己的心跳。

full exhale and held my breath, my what we geek speak, what neuroscientists call interoception, my perception of things from the skin inward became more salient and I could feel my heartbeat more and more.

心跳并没有加快，但我能真切感受到心脏在跳动。

And then it didn't speed up, but I could just feel my heart beating.

更加意识到——抱歉——我的心脏在跳动。

Was more aware, excuse me, of my heart beating.

当呼吸的冲动开始出现时，我能感觉到某种程度的加剧，这不是焦虑，而是一种紧迫感。

Then as the impulse to breathe started to kick in, I could feel a bit of ramping up of, it's not anxiety, but it's a sense of urgency.

要知道，这是与生俱来的机制，幸运的是，随着吸气，这种紧迫感就得到了缓解。

Know, hardwired, fortunately And sense of then with an inhale, there's a relaxation of that sense.

然后

And

此时会有一种能量从中心向外扩散的感觉。

there is a sense that energy moves out from the center at that point.

你会更强烈地感受到自己的身体。

You'd feel more of your body.

因为我认为任何时候当我们缺乏空气时，大脑就会立即思考：如何在此刻获取空气？

Because I think anytime we don't have air, our brain goes to, how do I bring air right here, right now?

你不会想着心跳，你只想着获取空气。

You're not thinking heartbeat, you're thinking get air.

类似这样的情况。

Something of that sort.

是的。

Yes.

我想如果你那样做，那种紧迫感，对吧？

I think if you do that and the urgency, right?

那种焦虑、压力，或者这种感觉，会让人觉得很危险。

The anxiety, the stress, or this, it feels dangerous.

对吧？

Right?

而且我认为对很多人来说，溺死或窒息是最痛苦的死亡方式之一。

And I think to many people dying by drowning or suffocation is one of the worst death.

那么为什么会这样呢？

And so why is that?

那种紧迫的焦虑感究竟是什么？

What is that sense of urgency of anxiety?

是血液中二氧化碳的积累，对吧？

It's CO2 building up in your blood, right?

二氧化碳是线粒体在转化能量时释放的产物。

CO2 is the product that mitochondria release as they transform energy.

当二氧化碳积累时，意味着氧气正在耗尽，对吧？

And then when CO2 builds up, it means oxygen is getting depleted, right?

如果氧气耗尽，你摄入食物中的电子就无法继续流动了，对吗？

If oxygen gets depleted, the electrons from the food you eat can no longer flow, Right?

如果线粒体末端没有氧气来接收流动的电子，你的能量流动就会停止。

If there's no oxygen at the end in your mitochondria to accept the electrons flowing, you stop flowing.

所以你作为能量体，面临着停止存在的风险。

So you, as a movement of energy, are at risk of ceasing to exist.

无法呼吸的感觉，对吧？

Not being able to breathe, right?

喘不过气对你的能量体来说是生存威胁。

Being out of breath is an existential threat to your energetic self.

不深入细节了，我在其他播客里讲过这件事。

Without getting into the details, I've talked about it on other podcasts.

2017年我遭遇过一次潜水事故，一开始就处于空气耗尽的糟糕处境。

I had a scuba diving accident a few years ago, 2017, ran out of air in a bad situation to begin with.

那种紧迫感来得非常直接，所幸最终没有造成心理创伤。

And I'll tell you the sense of urgency is very immediate, and fortunately didn't end up with any PTSD from that.

显然结果还算顺利。

It obviously worked out okay.

我坐在这里说话，但现在我明白了为什么，我从未对别的孩子做过这种事，也没人对我这样做过，但孩子们之间会开这种玩笑：当朋友刚从水下上来准备呼吸时。

I'm sitting here and talking, but now I understand why, and I never did this to another kid, nor did anyone ever do it to me, but there's this joke that kids play on one another where their friend is coming up from underwater, and you're ready to take a breath.

这就是你从水下上来的原因。

That's why you come up from underwater.

没错。

Yep.

如果那时有人按住你的头——太可怕了。

And if someone holds your head right at that point- Terrible.

尽管只是短暂一刻，那种紧迫感瞬间袭来——

Even though it's just a moment, the sense of urgency that kicks in-

是啊。

Yeah.

非常强烈且极其迅速，这正说明了这些神经回路有多么根深蒂固。

Is very intense and very, very fast, which speaks to just how hardwired these circuits are.

因为在那时，按理说应该还有足够空气能再支撑个五秒左右。

Because at that point, presumably, there was enough air to stay under for another five seconds or whatever it is.

但当我们预期获得氧气却未能如愿时，压力会急剧增加。

But when we anticipate getting oxygen and we don't, there's a big increase in stress.

能量会直接涌向大脑特定区域，比如杏仁核等部位，它们会立即判定这是危急状况，于是调动一切资源来解决问题。

Energy goes straight to whatever areas of the brain, amygdala and other areas presumably that are like, this is a bad situation, do anything and everything becomes about resolving the situation.

没错。

Yes.

这是因为我们本身就是能量体。

And that's because we are energy.

我们是系统中流动的能量。

We are the flowing energy through the system.

一旦能量流动开始停滞，就会产生强烈的不适感。

And if energy starts to stall, it just feels so uncomfortable.

这种感知能力必定是进化而来的。

We have to have evolved to feel this.

当某些因素（比如周围缺氧）阻碍能量流动时，你必须立即逃离，这种求生本能是与生俱来的。

If something is making your energy stall, like there's not enough oxygen around, you need to get out of there and you need to have this instinct to survive.

所以试图存活的并非肉体本身，而是这股因缺氧而受到威胁的能量流动，对吧？

So what's trying to survive is not the physical body, it's this flow of energy that's being threatened right, from lacking oxygen.

你已经多次谈到能量流动这个概念，我想在我们接下来的讨论中它会贯穿始终。

Many times already, you've talked about the flow of energy, and that concept, think it's gonna be threaded through as we go forward.

当你听说太极这类练习，或是武术中人们汲取他人能量并转化的技巧时——这不仅是合气道的专利，比如拳击中你会学到出拳不只是用手臂和肩膀，你必须站稳脚跟。

When you hear about practices like Tai Chi, or when you hear like in the martial arts where people are taking other people's energy and converting, and this is not just a thing of Aikido, but the notion that like if you box, you learn that you're not just hitting with your arm and your shoulder, you have to keep your feet planted.

从某种意义上说，你是从地面汲取力量，你在传递能量，但实际上你是在对抗地面，然后能量通过身体向上传导。

You're pulling from the floor in some sense, you're transferring the energy, but you're actually pushing back against the floor, and then it's coming up through your body.

人们谈论筋膜链，你知道的，就像跑步时那样。

People talk about the fascial slings, you know, when people run.

这有无数种变化形式，但核心都是关于能量流动的概念。

There are bazillion different variations on this, but it's all about this concept of flow of energy.

我发现人类在舞蹈、歌唱、创造惊人运动壮举时，或是将全部精力倾注于某事时，这种能量引导——人类刻意通过练习将所有能量引导到某件事上的能力——正是最令我们惊叹的部分。

And I find that so much of what we find incredible when people dance, when people sing, when people do incredible athletic feats, or channel everything they've got into something, this channeling of energy, is the human animal deliberately channeling all their energy in the form of practice into something.

从很多方面来说，我们热爱这种状态。

In many ways, we love that.

是的。

Yeah.

尽管从定义上来说，这会造就一个非常不平衡的人。

Even though by definition, it creates a very lopsided person.

我并不想过多探讨其中的心理学因素，而是想回到大脑不同区域从出生起就可能拥有不同数量线粒体这个概念。

And I'm not trying to get into the psychology of this so much as I wanna go back to this notion of our brain areas having different amounts of mitochondria, probably from birth.

但如果我们踢足球、喜欢数学和陶艺，我们的大脑就会与那些喜欢阅读、戏剧和电影，虽然锻炼但不太热衷的人不同。

But then if we play soccer and we like math and pottery, we get a different brain than if we like reading and theater and movies, and we'll exercise, but we're not too crazy about it.

我们听说过，如果锻炼，我们的大脑会运作得更好。

If we exercise, our brain works better, we've heard.

但也有一种观点认为，那些把所有时间都花在锻炼上的人，他们的大脑并没有变得更好。

But there's also the notion of the person who just spends all their time exercising, and their brain doesn't get better.

我这话说得还算委婉。

I'm being gentle there.

我喜欢锻炼，也喜欢思考。

And I like exercise, and I like thinking.

这是否需要取舍？

Is there a trade off?

这是否需要取舍？

Is there a trade off?

是的。

Yeah.

因为我坚信保持健康、维持体魄和长寿很重要，但大多数人并非竞技运动员。

Because I believe in staying fit and staying healthy and living a long life, but most people are not competitive athletes.

大多数人并不想成为健身房最强壮的人或最优秀的跑者。

Most people don't want to be the strongest person in the gym or the best runner.

我相信大多数人——我也是其中之一——我们只想足够强壮，拥有耐力和一定速度，但同时希望能保持思考能力。

Most people, I believe, and I'm one of these, I want to be strong enough, I want to have endurance, I want to have some speed, but I want to be able to think.

我希望我的线粒体在所有系统中保持平衡。

I want my mitochondria balanced across all my systems.

我女友会说：'谁让你是天秤座呢，当然会这么想。'

My girlfriend would say, Well, you're a Libra, of course you do.

但我想说的是，我想要这样是因为我希望能够深入体验生活的多个不同方面。

But I'm saying, I want it because I want to be able to lean into a lot of different aspects of life.

我不想成为在某一方面萎缩，而在其他方面过度发达的人。

I don't want to become the atrophied in one area and hypertrophied to some great extent in some other area human.

那么从你最近发表的研究结果来看，你对这些有什么看法？

So what are your thoughts on these through the lens of the results that you recently published?

这是一种权衡吗？

Is it a trade off?

我不

I don't

认为我们确切知道答案，但我们最近的一项研究表明，不同系统之间可能存在权衡。

think we know exactly, but we did a study recently that points to the fact that there might be trade offs between different systems.

抱歉了，肌肉狂们。

Sorry, meatheads.

不，我只是在开玩笑。

No, I'm just kidding.

我热爱在健身房锻炼，但你也必须读书。

I love working out in the gym, but you have to read too.

我们验证了一个假设：如果你的肌肉中含有更多线粒体，那么你的大脑、心脏、肝脏和皮肤中也会更多。

We tested the hypothesis that if you have more mitochondria in your muscles, you also have more in your brain and in your heart and in your liver and in your skin.

但结果表明事实并非如此。

And the result is that's not the case.

而且，安德鲁，我认为当你能够兼顾所有这些方面时，似乎能获得很大满足感，并充分发挥你的潜力。

And, you know, you, Andrew, I think you seem to derive a lot of fulfillment and, you know, you live up to your full potential when you can do all of these things.

对吧？

Right?

你是个出色的沟通者和整合者，你的思维方式是那种美妙的整合性思维，这可能正是引导你从事现在工作的原因，对吗？

And you're a great communicator, you're a great integrator, you know, the kind of thinking you do is like this beautiful integrative thinking, which might be what has led you to do what you do now, right?

因为你大部分时间都在发挥自己的优势。

With most of your time, because this really taps into your strengths.

我猜这确实能让你充满活力地投入其中。

It really moves you, I suspect, energetically.

我很享受。

I enjoy it.

你享受其中。

You enjoy it.

这是什么意思？

What does that mean?

对吧？

Right?

享受是一种情绪状态，一种情感状态。

Enjoyment is kind of an emotional state, an affective state.

它是一种能量状态。

It's an energetic state.

我们都是不同的能量转换者，对吧？

We're all different energy transformers, right?

就像你转化能量，拥有做你所做之事的能力。

Like you transform energy and you have this ability to do what you do.

其他人拥有截然不同的技能，对吧？

Other people have very different skills, right?

还有天赋。

And gifts.

我认为我们与生俱来的某些特质，似乎并不能完全归因于人类的基因组编码。

I think we were born with something that doesn't seem to be fully just encoded in people's genomes.

即使是基因完全相同的同卵双胞胎，也会展现出截然不同的天赋与性格——我们至今无法解释这种差异的起源。

They're genetically identical twins that have very different aptitudes and personalities, and we don't know where this comes from.

而后天的成长过程中，我们又被不同的事物所滋养、触动和启发。

Then we are fed, we're moved and inspired by different things.

当人们追随这种内在指引时，似乎就能获得源源不断的能量。

And when people seem to follow that, it appears to bring them energy.

从生物学层面来说——比如线粒体活动水平——我们的研究正逐渐揭示：当你投身于赋予人生意义的事业时...我们另一项针对芝加哥同事的研究也印证了这点。

What this means biologically, the level of mitochondria, I think our research is starting to point in a direction that says, if you're engaged in things that bring you purpose and fulfillment, there's another study we did.

我们在临终关怀调查中询问受访者：你对自己人生的意义感打几分？

We ask people or colleagues in Chicago, ask people before they died, how much sense of purpose do you have in your life?

社交关系的意义有多大？

How meaningful social connections?

幸福感，对吧？

Well-being, right?

然后是负面因素，抑郁、孤独、焦虑。

And then the negative stuff, depression, loneliness, anxiety.

然后他们每年都填写这些问卷。

And then every year they answered those questionnaires.

我们了解人们对自己、对生活、对某种更高力量的感受深度。

We knew how deep people felt about themselves, about life, about some greater power beyond them.

然后他们去世了，将大脑捐献给科学。

And then they died, gave their brain to science.

我们获取了一小块脑组织，现在正在测量线粒体。

We got a little piece of brain, and now we're measuring the mitochondria.

还有卡尔文和特朗普，我们团队中的一位研究员，他在研究一种真实的线粒体心理生物学。

And Calvin and Trump, researcher who works in our group, who's a bonafide mitochondrial psycho biologist.

因此她提出了关于心理与线粒体生物学之间关系的问题。

So she asked questions between the psyche and the biology of mitochondria.

所以她询问，是否可能在人们去世前的感受与他们大脑中的线粒体及前额叶皮层有关，即背外侧前额叶皮层（DLPFC）。

So she asked, could it be that how people felt before they died relates to the mitochondria in their brain and the prefrontal cortex, the DLPFC, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

而她发现，那些在生活中感受到更多目标感、与他人联系更紧密、无论什么带来幸福感的人，似乎这些就足以提升他们大脑中线粒体的能量转换能力。

And what she found is that people who felt more purpose in life and who felt more connected to others and who felt well-being for whatever was bringing them well-being, it seemed like that was sufficient to increase the energy transformation capacity of the mitochondria in their brain.

那么这是因为他们有幸拥有的经历，还是他们积极培养的生活实际上改变了他们大脑中的线粒体？

So is this because of the experiences that they're fortunate to have or that they're actively fostering in their life that's actually transforming the mitochondria in their brain?

也许吧。

Maybe.

或者情况恰恰相反。

Or it's the other way around.

出于某些我们尚不理解的原因，他们大脑线粒体具有更强的能量转换能力，这导致他们以更积极、更有目标和更有意义的方式体验世界。

For some reason that we don't understand, they have more of the energy transformation capacity in their brain mitochondria, and that is leading them to experience the world as more positive and as more purposeful and as more meaningful.

动物研究表明，这两种方式可能都存在。

Animal studies say it probably goes both ways.

所以如果你调整老鼠大脑中的线粒体，就能改变该动物的行为，使其从更顺从变为更强势，或从更强势变为更顺从。

So if you tweak the mitochondria in a rat brain, you can change the behavior of that animal from more submissive to more dominant or from more dominant to more submissive.

瑞士洛桑联邦理工学院的卡门·桑迪展示了这项漂亮的研究成果。

Beautiful work by Carmen Sandi at EPFL in Switzerland that showed this.

反过来讲，如果长期对动物施加压力，剥夺它们选择不同选项的自由。

And then the other way around, if you chronically stress animals, you deprive them of kind of freedom of choosing different options.

长期的压力实际上会损害大脑中的线粒体。

So chronically stressful things actually damage the mitochondria in the brain.

在某些脑区，线粒体数量更少且能量转化效率也更低。

And in some brain areas, there are fewer mitochondria and they don't transform energy as well.

因此线粒体似乎会对我们的心理状态做出反应，而大脑中的线粒体也能影响我们的心理状态。

So the mitochondria are responsive, it seems, to our state of mind and that the mitochondria in our brain can also influence our states of mind.

如果我们想探讨其中的哲学意义，纠结因果关系可能并非关键问题——但浮现的结论正与你的疑问相关。

And if we want to talk about the philosophy of this, thinking about like what's causing what maybe isn't, you're really the right question to ask, but what's emerging is that's relevant to your question.

我们主观体验之间存在明确联系，这种第一人称视角的体验意义不言而喻，对吧？

There's a clear connection between the subjective experiences that we have, that we know from first person to be meaningful, right?

因为这是我们主要能接触到的——我们的感受、我们体验世界的方式，在某种程度上与大脑中能量转化单元、能量处理单元的生物学特性相关。

Because that's what we have access to primarily is how we feel, how we experience the world, somehow is related to the biology of the energy transforming units, energy processing units in our brain.

天啊。

Man.

也许还包括我们的免疫系统。

And maybe also in our immune system.

所以我们已经在免疫细胞和脑组织方面做了研究，目前正在分析来自5000个人类大脑样本的线粒体。

And so we've done work in immune cells and brain tissue, and we're currently analyzing mitochondria from 5,000 human brain samples.

这是来自500个人的10种不同脑组织和肌肉样本。

That's 10 different brain and muscle samples from 500 people.

你们有这些人的历史记录吗？比如他们的人生目标、从事的职业、生活满足感程度？

Do you have histories on these people as to how much purpose, what they did, how much life fulfillment they had?

我真的很庆幸有你这样的生物学家存在。

I'm so glad that biologists like you exist.

我想特别说明这一点，不仅仅因为你同意成为公共卫生教育者，更因为过去几年公众对生物学和心理学的认知发生了惊人的变化。

I just wanna say that, not just because you're agreeing to be a public health educator, but just it's incredible how much things have changed in the last few years in terms of the public awareness about biology and psychology.

但我真切感受到，通过你所做的这类研究，我们将不再只是常春藤医学院实验室里讨论东方哲学的能量观与线粒体的对立，而是用真实数据融合这些理念。

But I have the genuine sense that with you doing the kind of work that you're doing, that no longer are we going to be talking about the Eastern philosophy of energy versus mitochondria in a laboratory at some medical school, at an Ivy League medical school, but you're merging these ideas in real data.

我认为这将把长期相互配合却未意识到的理念统一起来。

And I think it's gonna bring together ideas that have been in cooperation for a long time, but didn't realize it.

我相信这会彻底改变人类健康。

And I think it's gonna transform human health.

因为如果我们把自己视为能量转化体，就会更审慎地思考如何投入时间和精力。

Because if we think about ourselves as energy transformation beings, we're gonna think pretty carefully about where we invest our time and energy.

而且我确实认为我们应该开始更多地倾听身体信号，当我们感到疲惫时，这意味着什么？

And also I do think start to listen to our bodies more when we're feeling shut down, like what does that mean?

现在我们不能再简单地用'这件事给我能量还是不给我能量'来应对一切，因为生活中我们还需要建立某些即使不便也必须掌握的技能回路。

Now we can't respond to everything as just a, does it give me energy, not give me energy, because we also have to build up some circuits to be proficient in life that perhaps are inconvenient for us to build up.

但与此同时，我认为从'这件事是否给我能量'这个概念中我们能获得很多启示。

But at the same time, I think there's a lot to be gained from this idea of does something give me energy?

我认为人们常常混淆戏剧性和人际摩擦——这些其实都是能量消耗。

I think people confuse like drama and friction with certain people is like, that's energy expenditure.