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在我的研究中，我们发现，如果能让人思考自己做事的初衷和背后的意义，他们就更有可能抵抗住诱惑。
In my own research, we have shown that if we can get people to think about their whys, the purposes behind their decisions, the broader purposes behind what they're doing, they're much more likely to be able to overcome the temptation.
比如面前放着一块巧克力蛋糕，我正努力不吃它，如果你说‘我不能吃，因为我在节食’，这种理由根本没什么力量。
So if there's a piece of chocolate cake in front of me and I'm trying not to eat it, if you said, oh, I'm I'm not supposed to eat that because I'm on a diet, that doesn't have much magic to it.
但要是我告诉自己，我得为家人这么做，
But if instead I'm saying things like I need to do this for my family.
我想在孩子的婚礼照片里看起来精神点，或者我的孩子正看着我，我想给他们做个好榜样——这些更高层次的理由，才是推动我健康饮食、保持身材、拒绝蛋糕的真正动力。
I wanna look good for my children's wedding photos or, know, you my children are looking at me or wanna be a good example or all these other kinds of reasons that you might these higher order reasons that you might have for getting healthier, being fitter, or whatever, not eating the cake.
我们的研究显示，这样的想法能显著提高人们避开蛋糕的可能性。
We show that that increases the odds that people will avoid the cake.
我们认为，这是因为这些理由赋予了行为更深的意义。
And we think it's because it's giving people meaning.
这些都是我真正在乎的事情。
These are higher order things that I care about.
正是这些，才让我有动力坚持下去。
And these are what's going to motivate me to hold out.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，这里我们探讨科学以及基于科学的日常生活工具。
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
今天我们的嘉宾是富士ita博士。
My guest today is Doctor.
肯塔罗·富士ita博士，俄亥俄州立大学心理学教授，自我控制与动机领域的专家。
Kentaro Fujita, Professor of Psychology at Ohio State University and an expert in the science of self control and motivation.
如果你曾经在拖延、坚持目标，或者为人生设定目标方面遇到困难，那今天的节目非常适合你。
If you're somebody who has ever struggled with procrastination, sticking to a goal, or coming up with the goals for your life, today's episode is for you.
今天我们一开始会聊到著名的棉花糖实验。
We start off today's discussion talking about the famous two marshmallow experiment.
那个实验让孩子们坐在房间里，面前放一颗棉花糖，告诉他们如果能忍住不吃，过一会儿就能得到两颗。
The one where they placed kids in a room with a marshmallow and told them that if they delayed gratification for that marshmallow, meaning they didn't eat it, they would then get two marshmallows.
这个实验当时引起了广泛关注，因为它被认为能预测一个人未来是否能取得成功。
Those experiments received a lot of attention in that they were supposed to predict whether people would be successful later in life.
我们会讨论对这些实验的批评，但也会说明其中一些结论其实是有道理的，更重要的是，无论你多大年纪，都可以培养心理韧性，学会为了目标而延迟满足。
We talk about the criticism of those experiments, but also how some of those conclusions were valid and more importantly, how people of any age, including you can build mental resilience and your ability to experience deferred gratification toward your goals.
我们还会谈到内在动机和外在动机的区别。
We also talk about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation.
这些话题在外界经常被误解，但藤田博士指出，
These are topics that are very misunderstood out there, but Doctor.
当我们因为做自己本来就喜欢的事而获得奖励时，这并不会削弱我们去做这件事的动力。
Fujita clarifies that when we receive rewards for something we are naturally inclined to do, meaning that we love, it does not reduce our motivation to do that thing.
这一点非常关键，我们会结合实际方法，聊聊如何推进并持续保持目标的进展。
And this is an important point, and we go into it in terms of the practical steps for building and maintaining your progress on goals.
我们也会分析数据，看看哪些具体步骤对启动和实现短期与长期目标最有效。
We also talk about what the data say about the specific steps that are most effective to both initiate and reach short and long term goals.
另外，我们还会讨论如何摆脱冲动状态和拖延心态。
We also talk about how to get out of impulsive states and states of procrastination.
数据是怎么说的，以及该如何做到这一点。
What the data say about how to do that.
今天的这期节目重点讲科学，更重要的是实用的收获。
Today's episode is really focused on science and more importantly, practical takeaways.
其中好几条我都打算用到自己的生活中。
Several of which I plan to incorporate into my own life.
真希望我年轻的时候就能知道这些，现在多亏了藤田博士做客播客，
I only wish I had this knowledge when I was younger, but now thanks to Doctor.
各个年龄段的人都能很好地利用他研究中的信息和数据。
Fujita coming on the podcast, people of all ages can make great use of the information and data from his studies.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客和我在斯坦福的教学与研究工作是分开的。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
但它确实体现了我想把免费的科学知识和相关工具带给大众的努力。
It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.
本着这个宗旨，今天的节目会有赞助商广告。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
接下来，让我们开始与藤田博士的对话。
And now for my discussion with Doctor.
藤田健太郎。
Kentaro Fujita.
教授。
Doctor.
藤田健太郎，欢迎你。
Kentaro Fujita, welcome.
谢谢。
Thank you.
今天能来我真的很兴奋。
Really excited to be here today.
我也特别期待和你聊聊。
I'm super excited to talk to you.
我们平时总听人说起动机、自律、意志力和韧性，但很久没看到关于这些心理机制的现代解读了——不光是在这个播客里，我想大多数人也都知道那个著名的‘棉花糖实验’，希望你能给我们讲讲。
We hear so much about motivation, discipline, willpower, tenacity, but we really haven't had a modern update on the psychology of these in a long while, not just on the podcast, but I think most people have heard of the so called marshmallow experiment, which hopefully you could explain to us.
它揭示了什么？有哪些批评？甚至那些批评的批评，你也能说说吗？因为我觉得这个‘棉花糖实验’——如果还没人知道的话，待会儿你一讲大家就明白了——它几乎成了一个象征，代表着意志力到底是天生的，还是可以后天培养的。
Tell us what it revealed, some of the criticisms, maybe even some criticisms of the criticism, because I think the marshmallow experiment, which everyone will learn about momentarily, if they don't already know what that is, sort of stands as this symbol of whether willpower is somehow innate or whether it's something that can really be cultivated.
那你能给我们讲讲，什么是棉花糖实验吗？
So if you would, what is the marshmallow experiment?
棉花糖实验其实是沃尔特·米歇尔在上世纪六七十年代到八十年代于斯坦福大学开展的一系列研究。
So the marshmallow test was actually a series of experiments that was conducted by Walter Mischel in the 60s to 70s to 80s at Stanford.
在经典的实验设计中，孩子会被带进来，坐在一张桌子前，面前放着他们特别想要的东西。
And what happens in the classic paradigm is a child comes in and is seated in front of a plate with some kind of thing that they really want.
通常情况下，那是一颗棉花糖。
Generally speaking, it was a single marshmallow.
研究人员会告诉孩子，他们会暂时离开一会儿，但如果孩子能忍住不吃这颗糖，等他们回来时糖还在，就能得到两颗棉花糖。
And the children were told that the experimenter was gonna leave for a while, but if they could avoid eating the one or basically hold out and not eat the one, and it was still there when the experimenter came back, they could get two marshmallows.
这本质上是一个自我控制的问题——你得在眼前的小奖励和未来的更大奖励之间做取舍。
So this is essentially a self control problem because you have a smaller sooner reward, and you're sort of trading that off with a larger later reward.
实验的关键指标，就是孩子能忍多久。
And the key dependent variable here was how long the child could wait.
不过棉花糖实验有个不太为人所知的细节：没有一个孩子能坚持满十五分钟，直到研究人员回来。
Now, the dirty little secret about the marshmallow experiments is that no child waited the full fifteen minutes that the experimenter was gone.
但实际操作中，门一关上，你就启动计时器，然后就盯着看孩子们能忍多久。
But what you could do is you could basically, as soon as the door closed, would start the timer and then the amount and you were just basically looking to see how long the children would wait.
这被看作是孩子延迟满足的能力，也就是自控力。
That was interpreted as the child's delay of gratification ability or otherwise self control.
后来还有一系列后续实验，我们可以聊一聊。
Now there were a series of experiments that we can talk about.
研究人员用这些实验发现了孩子们用来提升延迟满足的各种技巧和方法，但这些大多数人并不知道。
They used these experiments to learn a lot about the different tactics and skill tricks and tools that kids could learn to use to improve their delay of gratification, but that's not what everybody knows.
大家普遍知道的是，多年后他们重新分析了当年孩子们的等待时长数据。
What everybody knows about these experiments is that many years later, they analyzed data which they looked at children's delay time.
也就是说，他们到底等了多久才吃掉那颗棉花糖？
So again, how long did they wait before they indulged in the one, one marshmallow?
然后发现，这个等待时间跟很多重要的人生结果高度相关，比如学业表现、职业成就、收入水平，甚至包括入狱率、社交关系等等。
And then they saw to what extent it was correlated with important life outcomes like academic achievement, career success, income, even things like incarceration, social relationships.
而他们得出的结论，令人震惊。
And what they found was shocking.
孩子能忍得越久不吃那颗棉花糖，将来在学业上表现越好，赚的钱越多，朋友越多，身心健康状况也更佳，同时犯罪记录和社交问题的发生率也更低。
The longer children could wait before eating the single marshmallow, the more likely they were to have to do well in school, more likely to make more money, have more friends, have better physical and mental health, and also have lower incarceration and problematic social behavior reports.
这让人对自控力产生了极大兴趣，因为它似乎表明自控是一项影响人生重大结果的关键能力，也正是这一点引发了广泛热议。
And so this got people really excited about self control because it was like it suggested that it was a key skill for important life outcomes, and this is what generated a lot of that excitement.
有没有孩子真的因为忍住没吃而得到了两颗棉花糖作为奖励？
Did any of the kids actually get two marshmallows as a reward?
这要看具体的数据集。
It depends on the dataset.
现在研究已经表明，孩子在棉花糖实验中的等待时间受很多因素影响。
So research has now shown that the marshmallow test waiting times depend on a lot of things.
在最初的实验里，等待时间大概是十五分钟。
So in the original experiments, was something like fifteen minutes.
其他研究者把时间缩短到了十分钟，对孩子来说没那么难了。
Other experimenters have shortened that time to ten minutes, and that's a little easier for children to do.
棉花糖实验还有一个非常重要的点：孩子必须信任实验者。
Another really important thing about the marshmallow test is that the child has to trust the experimenter.
如果你不相信实验人员，那干嘛还要等呢？
If you don't trust the experimenter, why should you bother waiting?
对吧？
Right?
直接拿走眼前这一个，其实完全合情合理。
It's perfectly rational just to go ahead and grab the one.
如果你不信他们会真的给你两个，那还等什么？
If you don't trust, the experimenter's actually going bring you two.
有些实验会故意让实验人员在孩子面前表现得可靠或不可靠，比如忘记做事，或者记得完成承诺。
So there have been experiments in which the experimenter looks reliable or unreliable in front of the child, so they forget something or they remember to do something.
当实验人员不可信时，孩子们就不会等了。
And when experimenters are unreliable, children do not wait.
他们直接就把棉花糖拿走了。
They just go and grab the marshmallow.
有人认为，这种做法其实是一种明智而理性的选择。
And it's been argued that that's actually a sensible rational behavior.
这个实验的设计看起来很简单，但背后其实下了不少功夫，才让整个实验能按预期运行。
So the setup here, it sounds really simple, but there's a lot of art behind this to make this experiment work the way that it's supposed to.
是不是有点跳跃了？觉得孩子看到父母做他们被禁止的事，就更不容易听从指令？
Is it a leap to assume that the adage that children who observe their parents doing the thing that the kids are told not to do are less likely to follow instruction?
比如父母说：‘吃完晚饭、做完作业才能碰电子设备’，结果孩子一抬头，发现爸妈自己在刷手机，这会不会让他们对父母的话失去信任？
For instance, if parents say, listen, no electronic devices until after dinner, and you've done your homework, and then the kids see their parent looking at their phone, Does that reduce trust in the parents' advice?
我不确定这会不会削弱孩子对父母建议的信任，但关于‘社会模仿’的研究已经很多了。
I don't know if it reduces the trust in the parents' advice, but there is a lot of research on what's known as social modeling.
最著名的实验之一，是把一个充气玩偶带进来——那是个小丑，叫波波。
The most famous experiment of this, they brought in a blow up doll, which they, it was a clown, and it was referred to as Bobo.
孩子们要么看视频里大人打波波，要么看大人温柔地对待波波，然后让他们自己去玩波波。
And kids either watched a video of an adult punching Bobo or being nice to Bobo, and then were allowed to play with Bobo themselves.
结果，看过大人打波波的孩子，更可能也去打它。
And those that watched the adult punched Bobo were more likely to punch Bobo themselves.
这说明，孩子其实非常留意大人的行为。
So this suggests that children are very observant for our own behavior.
所以如果你表现出某种行为，孩子就会觉得这是正确的方式。
And so if you are acting in a certain way, children are learning that that's the appropriate way to learn.
我不确定有没有人专门针对自控力做过这类研究。
So I don't know that it's been done specific on self control.
也许有吧。
It may have.
但毫无疑问，在很多其他行为上，孩子对大人的举动观察得非常仔细。
But certainly in many, many other behaviors, children are remarkably observant of what adults do.
我不指望你为棉花糖实验辩护，但这么多年下来，这个实验确实受到了不少质疑，很多颠覆性的心理学研究都经历过类似的情况，对吧？
I won't hold you responsible for defending or holding up the marshmallow experiments, but they've received a lot of criticism over the years, as have many paradigm shifting areas of psychology, right?
比如神经科学领域。
I mean, neuroscience.
我觉得很重要的是，大家要明白，一旦有理论提出来，比如成长型思维，或者发育神经生物学家说皮层神经元都呈放射状迁移，两三年后，肯定有人会找到反例。
I think it's important for everyone to know that the moment that there's sort of a theory put forth like growth mindset, or for the developmental neurobiologist, the idea that all neurons in the cortex migrate radially, two, five years later, someone's going to find an exception to that.
然后整个理论好像就崩塌了，但过一阵子，大家又发现答案其实是两者兼有。
And then the whole thing seems to crumble, but then it sort of comes back where the answer is both.
关于棉花糖实验，我听过很多批评意见。
In terms of the marshmallow experiment, I've heard a lot of criticism.
它的预测力并没有我们原先以为的那么强。
It wasn't as predictive as we thought.
也许实验者在数据收集过程中无意中带入了偏见。
Maybe the experimenters were sort of biasing the data collection.
在你看来，哪些批评是站得住脚的？
What are the valid criticisms in your view?
那反过来，你又怎么看待对这些批评的反驳？
And what are the criticisms of the criticisms in your view?
正如我之前说的，棉花糖实验要想做准，前提条件得把握好。
So as I mentioned, the marshmallow experiments or marshmallow tests, they have to be set up right.
和很多其他心理学实验一样，心理学家们其实心里有数，知道怎么做才靠谱，但就是不擅长把这些要点清楚地写出来，让别人照着做。
And like a lot of other psychology experiments, I think the psychologists kind of intuitively understood what it took to get it right, but were not very good at articulating those for others to follow in kind of a recipe book.
最近最受关注的批评是，有人用了一个庞大的儿童数据集，这些孩子在四岁时完成了棉花糖测试，之后又追踪了他们在青春期的多种生活表现。
The most famous criticism, or the one that got the most press recently, is that there was a very large data set of children outcomes in which they completed the marshmallow test at four years old, and then a bunch of different life outcomes at adolescence.
所以他们主要是想看看能不能复现这个棉花糖实验。
And so they basically wanted to see whether they could replicate the marshmallow test.
按理说，他们应该能复现出来。
And they in principle, they should have.
但结果是，部分复现了，部分没复现。
And they did and they did not.
如果你只看延迟满足时间与学业表现、行为问题之间的简单相关性，答案是肯定的，确实能复现。
So if you looked at the simple correlation between did delay time predict outcomes like academic achievement and problematic behavior, the answer was yes, it seemed to replicate.
但后来研究者们控制了社会经济地位这些因素，而这正是对斯坦福原始研究的主要批评之一——因为参与实验的孩子大多来自斯坦福大学托儿所，家庭条件普遍优渥，并不代表普通美国家庭。
But then the researchers controlled for things like socioeconomic status, which was one of the criticisms of the original Stanford studies, because Stanford children, or at least the children that were going to the Stanford University daycare where these experiments were being conducted, were not your average American family, mostly well-to-do.
这一点很重要。
And this matters.
当研究者把三十到四十个其他变量都纳入控制后，孩子延迟满足的能力就不再能预测那些原本预期的结果了。
And so when the researchers had like 30 or 40 other covariant variables that they were controlling for, when they controlled for all these other variables, children's delay of gratification was no longer predicting these outcomes it was supposed to.
因此，这篇论文引起很大关注，基本是在说：棉花糖实验根本靠不住。
And so this paper got a lot of attention for basically saying, look, there's this the marshmallow tests are bunk.
不过，这引发了争议，关键问题是：这种统计调整真的合理吗？
Now, this has been controversial because the question is, was that statistical adjustment appropriate?
我们对这种统计调整的理解，是不是准确的？
And are we interpreting that statistical adjustment correctly?
还有其他研究者跟进做了分析，其中一位叫宗形美奈子，她带领的团队就是其中之一。
There have been other experimenters, other researchers who have come along, one of them is named Ikigai Munakata and her team.
他们用了同样的数据集，但换了一套更保守的假设重新分析。
They took the same data set, and they reanalyzed it with a different set of assumptions, a lot more conservative.
他们没有一股脑儿塞进三十个变量，而是只选了那些有理论依据、符合已有研究认知的变量，而不是什么都往里扔。
So rather than throwing in 30 covariates, they put in theory driven covariates, ones that made sense from what we know already about research as opposed to like throwing in the kitchen sink.
结果他们发现，延迟满足依然能预测孩子的问题行为，这说明原始的棉花糖实验其实得到了很好的复现。
And when they did that, they still found that delay of gratification predicted reports of problematic behavior, which suggests a very clean replication of the original marshmallow test.
有些人说，当初那些说棉花糖实验没复现成功的研究闹得挺大，但可能并不是最终结论，因为另一批研究者用完全一样的数据，得出了相反的结果。
So, you know, some people have suggested that failure to replicate the original marshmallow test, they got a lot of attention, but it may not have been the final answer because these experimenters again came along looked exactly the same data set and came to the opposite conclusion.
所以，目前学界对此还是有不同看法的。
So there's still a bit of a debate out there.
但我想强调的重点是，如何设计这个棉花糖实验非常关键。
But I think the main point to take away here again is that the way that you set up the marshmallow test is really important.
你得建立信任，要知道，那些在高社会经济地位环境中长大的孩子，生活通常很稳定，也很可预测。
You have to have trust, you know, and the argument about socioeconomic status is that kids who grow up in high SES environments, they're very stable, they're very predictable.
所以当你选择等待时，更有可能拿到那份更大但更晚的奖励。
So when you wait, you are more likely to get the larger later reward.
但如果你来自一个低社会经济地位的家庭，奖励来来去去，不确定性很高——你今天省下，不代表将来真能拿到，那他们自然就不愿意等。
But if you come from a lower SES family where rewards come and go and people and, you know, just because you save now doesn't mean it's going to pay off later, they're not going to wait.
因此，对这些孩子来说，这个测试的参考意义就没那么强。
And so it's not as indicative for them.
所以这些因素都得仔细控制，而它们其实原本就在实验设计中被考虑进去了。
So all these things have to be carefully controlled for and they were part of the original experiments.
只不过，这些条件并没有被充分明确地表达出来，以至于我们很难真正营造出一种让孩子相信‘等待会有回报’的环境。
Again, not really well articulated to the extent that you can create a situation where people do trust that they will get the larger later reward.
但这个测试确实还是有一定的预测能力。
There does seem to be some predictive ability of this test.
作为研究自我控制的学者，我觉得大家其实都抓错了重点。
Now let me just say as a self control researcher mice and myself, I think people are missing the boat.
棉花糖实验最有趣的地方，根本不是它能不能预测未来的结局。
What is most interesting about the marshmallow test is not whether or not they can predict outcomes later.
说服人们自我控制很重要，这当然不错。
And that's very nice to convince people that self control is important.
比如我要申请联邦科研经费，第一句话肯定就是‘自我控制能预测人生结果’，这种说法确实有用。
If I'm applying for federal grant money, for example, that's probably the first sentence that I write that, you know, that's that self control predicts life life outcomes.
其实早就有很多其他方法验证过这个假设了，我们没必要非得靠棉花糖实验来证明这一点。
There have been many, many other ways of testing this hypothesis, so I don't think we need to rely on the marshmallow test to make that point anymore.
但棉花糖实验真正被完全忽略的核心，其实跟你之前提到的一点有关，安德鲁。
The most important thing about the marshmallow test that gets completely overlooked refer goes back to something you said earlier, Andrew.
自我控制是天生的天赋，还是后天学会的技能？
Is it an innate talent or is it something that we learn?
沃尔特·米歇尔和他的团队真正重要的实验，是教孩子们如何掌握自我控制的策略。
The most important experiments, Walter Mischel and his team were teaching children the strategies of self control.
当孩子们学会了这些方法，他们的延迟满足能力就提高了。
And when children learn them, their delay ability got better.
这是一个非常重要的启示，因为它表明自控力并不是与生俱来的。
That is a really, really important lesson because it suggests that self control isn't something innate.
相反，它是我们在生活中慢慢学会的。
Instead, it's something that we learn over time.
我来给你举个例子。
Let me just give you an example.
他教孩子们的一件事是：盯着那颗棉花糖看更好，还是闭上眼睛更好？
So one of the things that he taught children was is it better to stare at the one marshmallow or close your eyes?
遮住它，或者闭上眼睛。
Cover it up or close your eyes.
三岁的孩子觉得盯着看更好，因为他们觉得这样能激励自己。
Three year old children believe that it's better to stare at it because they think that's how I'm going to motivate myself.
就像，如果我能看见自己想要的东西，我就更能忍得住。
Like if I can see what I want, I'm going to be able to wait.
对吧？
Right?
我能看见眼前的那颗，也能想象另一颗，所以我能等得更久。
I can see the one I can imagine the second, I can wait longer.
五岁的孩子明白了这招不管用，于是学会遮住眼睛或者闭上眼。
Five year olds learn that that's not going to work and they learn to cover it up or close their eyes.
有趣的是，你可以设计一个书面或口头测试，问孩子：你觉得怎样才能等得更久？
Interestingly, this basically you can create a written test where you can ask or a verbal test where you can ask children what do you think you should do in order to wait longer.
研究显示，孩子们的表现存在年龄差异，让我说得更准确一点。
And research shows that children who well, let me let be more careful.
研究显示，不同年龄段的孩子表现不一样。
Research shows that there are age related differences.
三岁孩子根本不懂，但五岁孩子已经学会了。
So at three year old, they don't know anything, but at five year old, they've learned.
到了十三岁，那些真正理解自控技巧的孩子，行为问题更少。
And then later on at 13 years old, those children who correctly understand the quote unquote rules of self control have less problematic behavior.
所以沃尔特·米歇尔和他的团队去了一所针对行为问题儿童的夏令营，那些懂得哪些方法有效、哪些无效的孩子，比不懂这些的孩子行为问题更少。
So Walter Mischel and his team went to a summer camp for children with behavioral problems, and those that understood the rules, the tricks that work and the tricks that don't work, were less likely to have behavioral problems at that camp than those who did not.
所以，知识真的很重要。
So knowledge matters.
自控力是可以学来的，可以被教导，也可以通过不断尝试和犯错来掌握。
Self control can be learned, it can be taught, you can learn by trial and error.
我觉得这一点特别关键，因为它说明自控力不是与生俱来的，而是可以通过努力不断提升的。
And I think that's really important because it suggests that rather than being something that we're born with, we can get better, we can grow, we can improve over time.
我觉得这个道理在这些研究中经常被忽视，但其实非常重要。
And I think this is a really important lesson that often gets overlooked with these studies.
我想先短暂休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商大卫。
I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.
大卫做的蛋白棒，和其他的都不一样。
David makes protein bars unlike any other.
他们最新推出的青铜蛋白棒，含有20克蛋白质，只有150卡路里，糖分却是零。
Their newest bar, the bronze bar has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories and zero grams of sugar.
我得说，这是我吃过最好吃的蛋白棒。
I have to say these are the best tasting protein bars I've ever had.
这些年我试过很多种蛋白棒了。
And I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years.
这些新的David蛋白棒以棉花糖为基底，外面裹着巧克力涂层，简直绝了。
These new David bars have a marshmallow base and they're covered in chocolate coating and they're absolutely incredible.
我当然也吃正常的天然食物。
I of course eat regular whole foods.
我会吃肉、鸡肉、鱼、鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等等。
I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, etcetera.
但我每天都会特意吃一两根David蛋白棒当零食，这样很容易就能达到每天每磅体重摄入一克蛋白质的目标。
But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of one gram of protein per pound of body weight.
这样我就能在不摄入多余热量的情况下，获得所需的蛋白质。
And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories.
我特别喜欢David青铜棒的所有口味，比如曲奇面团、焦糖巧克力、双层巧克力、花生酱巧克力。
I love all the David bronze bar flavors, including cookie dough, caramel chocolate, double chocolate, peanut butter chocolate.
它们吃起来真的就像糖果棒一样。
They all actually taste like candy bars.
再说一遍，简直太棒了。
Again, they're amazing.
但关键是，它们不含糖，却有20克蛋白质，只有150卡路里。
But again, they have no sugar and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories.
如果你想试试David的产品，可以访问davidprotein.com/huberman。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
目前David有个优惠活动，买四盒就送第五盒。
Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free.
你也可以在亚马逊，或者塔吉特、沃尔玛、克罗格这些商店买到David的产品。
You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger.
再次提醒，要免费获得第五盒，请访问davidprotein.com/huberman。
Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
今天的节目还要感谢Lingo的支持。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Lingo.
影响你短期和长期健康的一个关键因素，是你身体长期管理血糖的能力。
One of the most important factors in your short and long term health is your body's ability to manage glucose over time.
血糖直接影响我们的大脑功能、情绪和能量水平。
Glucose directly impacts our brain function, mood, and energy.
你希望全天血糖保持相对稳定，避免大幅波动。
You want your glucose relatively stable across the day without big peaks or valleys.
所以我才用雅培旗下的Lingo这款连续血糖监测仪和配套应用。
This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor and app from Lingo by Abbott.
Lingo会在应用里实时显示你的血糖变化，让你清楚看到食物、运动和压力如何影响你的血糖。
Lingo provides minute by minute glucose data directly within the app, showing you how your glucose responds to food, exercise, and stress.
这些数据能帮你做出更明智的选择，无论是现在还是未来，都能更好地维护健康。
This information can help you make smarter choices to support your health both now and in the long term.
美国疾控中心估计，超过三分之一的美国成年人有糖尿病前期，但很多人根本不知道自己已经处于这个阶段。
The CDC estimates that more than one in three American adults has prediabetes and that many of these people don't know they are living with prediabetes.
了解饮食和活动如何影响你的血糖，是和医生展开有根据对话、做出更健康日常决策的第一步。
Visibility about how your diet and activity affect your glucose can be the first step toward informed conversations with your doctor and making smarter daily choices.
如果你有兴趣试试 Lingo，Lingo 正为美国和英国的 Huberman Lab 听众提供四周期间九折优惠。
If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman Lab listeners in The US and UK 10% off a four week plan.
详情请访问 hellolingo.com/huberman。
Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.
具体条款请参见官网。
Terms and conditions apply.
再次提醒，网址是 hellolingo.com/huberman。
Again, that's hellolingo.com/huberman.
听你描述这些孩子用的策略，我忍不住笑了，因为我看过一些视频，节目笔记里会附上链接。
I'm smiling as you describe the strategies these children take because I've seen some of the videos and we'll provide a link to those in the show note caption.
他们太可爱了。
They're adorable.
在很多方面，他们的行为其实反映了成年人的模式，只是更纯粹一些。
And in many ways they reflect the behavior of adults, but in a much purer form.
我记得有一个视频，好像是个小男孩，他一边往棉花糖那边凑，一边假装不停地‘嗯嗯嗯嗯’，好像在尝味道，却硬是忍着不吃。
I recall one where, I think it was a young boy, where he's like leaning into the marshmallow and he's kind of doing like a yum, yum, yum, yum, like acting as if, but he's not letting himself do it.
然后他把目光移开，好像意识到自己想动。
Then he looks away and it seems to be that he's aware he wants to move.
他允许自己动了一下，但又立刻收了回来。
He's letting himself move, but then he's pulling back.
作为一个正在训练小狗的人，我可以告诉你，当你把食物或零食放在小狗面前，训练它抑制冲动——也就是神经科学家说的‘自上而下的抑制’——这件事特别有意思。虽然现在说的是狗，但我的新斗牛獒犬幼崽，它会故意把头转开，因为实在太想吃了。
And as somebody who's currently training a puppy, I can tell you that the weight with placing food or a treat in front of the puppy and getting that, what neuroscientists call top down inhibition, suppression of impulse, getting that trained up is so interesting because talking about a dog now, but my new, you know, bulldog mastiff puppy, he will intentionally look away from the food as a way to He's so tempted to eat it.
所以我会说：‘看着我’，这样反而帮了它大忙。
So I'll say, look at me, that actually makes it easier for him.
这看起来好像它很有自制力。
So it makes it seem like he's more disciplined.
但我认为，所有哺乳动物，可能所有具备这种自上而下抑制能力的生物，都会发展出类似的策略。
But I think all mammals, probably all creatures that have this top down inhibition come up with these strategies.
我猜这些策略非常个性化，不仅因年龄而异，甚至因个体而异。
And I have to assume that they're pretty unique, not just by age, but to the individual.
没错。
Agreed.
我记得有个孩子在椅子上转圈。
And I remember one kid spinning around in his chair.
没错。
Agreed.
很明显，想要做某事的冲动总是伴随着动作。
And it does seem to be that the impulse to do something is obviously involves movement.
我很好奇，有没有研究探讨过，如果让人有机会活动身体，而不是僵坐着压抑动作，他们是否更能有效控制冲动行为。
And it seems, and I'm curious if there's any research looking at if people have an opportunity to actually move their body as opposed to sit rigidly and prevent movement, whether or not they're more effective in suppressing impulsive behavior.
在很多文化里，人们会用念珠之类的东西来缓解焦虑。
I mean, in cultures, many cultures you have things like worry beads to sort of dispel anxiety.
有些人一感到压力就会去散步或跑步，确实挺管用的。
Some people when they get stressed will go for a walk or a run and it does seem to work.
这简直就像引擎在空转，蓄势待发要动起来。
It's almost like that there's a revving of the engine that drives movement.
我们当然可以聊神经回路，但那些具体机制其实没那么重要。
We could talk neural circuits, but it doesn't really matter what those are.
当我们试图抑制某种行为时，能把这种能量引导到别处，似乎很有帮助。
And when we're trying to suppress any kind of behavior, being able to channel that movement elsewhere seems useful.
就像我以前当夏令营辅导员时学的：要做渠道，别当堤坝，想让一群小孩乖乖坐着，根本不可能。
Or as I was taught as a camp counselor for young kids, be a channel, not a damn, because trying to get a bunch of young kids to sit still is pretty tough.
你讲的这些真的很有意思。
What you're saying is really interesting.
在我说下面这些之前，得先说明一下，这都只是我的推测。
So let me caveat everything I'm about to say by saying this all speculation.
我自己没听说过专门研究运动的实验，但你说的每一点我都特别认同，因为‘动机’这个词的拉丁词根就是‘移动’。
I personally don't know of research studies that look specifically at movement, but everything that you're saying makes total sense to me because the root, the Latin root for the word motivation is to move.
对吧？
Right?
所以动机，本质上就是推动我们所有行动的能量。
So motivation is supposed to be the energy force behind all of our movements.
它促使我们采取行动。
It impels action.
所以我觉得，如果我想激发某种行为，能够付诸行动是很自然的，这其实就是把我的能量导向某件具体的事。
So to me it makes sense that if I'm trying to motivate a particular behavior, being able to to act would be I mean, it is essentially channeling my energy towards doing something.
我可以跟你聊聊一些实验，安德鲁，比如为了训练自控力，研究人员会让参与者用操纵杆去靠近或远离某个物体。
I mean, are experiments that I can tell you a little bit about, Andrew, where, you know, to try to train self control, they will have people quote unquote approach or avoid an object with a joystick.
对吧？
Right?
如果你看到一个不该碰的东西，就把操纵杆往回拉，这样就在心理上和诱惑保持了距离；而如果是该接近的东西，比如你该吃的西兰花，就要把操纵杆往前推。
So if you see something that you're supposed to avoid, you pull the joystick back, so you're creating psychological distance from the temptation versus on the things that you're supposed to approach, like the broccoli you're supposed to eat, you're supposed to move the joystick forward.
有些研究显示，这种看似不动、实则模拟了动作的行为，长期下来真的能提升人的自控力，帮助形成新的评价标准——比如对节食的人来说，巧克力蛋糕是坏的，西兰花才是好的。
And there's some research to suggest that this kind of automatic, you're not actually moving, but, you know, you're taking action that's often associated with movement, that that can actually help improve people's self control over time, help develop evaluations such that, okay, the for dieters, for example, the chocolate cake is bad, but the broccoli is good.
对好的东西靠近，对坏的东西远离，这种倾向确实能增强之后的自控能力。
Having these movements towards the good stuff and away from the bad stuff does seem to improve self control afterwards.
不过话说回来，这跟你所说的实际身体运动还不太一样。
Again, question is, you know, it's not quite what you're talking about in terms of actual movement.
我还记得有些研究，虽然我不太确定细节，但好像表明，爱小动作的人，学习效果可能比不动的人更好。
I think there's also some research, again, is I'm not not exactly sure, but there's some research that suggests that like if you fidget, you might learn better than when you don't fidget.
还有研究发现，用笔和纸记笔记，比用电脑学得更好。
There's also some research where if you are taking notes with pen and paper as opposed to a computer, you can learn better.
我提这些并不是觉得它们特别重要，而是觉得它们很好地说明了你刚才说的观点——运动和动机之间确实有很有趣的联系。我觉得这其实是个常识，但这些例子特别生动地展现了这一点。
And again, I'm not saying these just because I think they're so important, but rather I just think they're nice illustrations of exactly what you're suggesting, which is there's some really interesting connection between movement and motivation, which I think, I mean, I think that's a truism, but I think these are really interesting examples of that.
这几年我一直都在思考一个问题：做困难的事，会让其他困难的事也变得更容易。
One thing I've been just grappling with for a number of years now is this concept that doing hard things makes it easier to do other hard things.
一方面，这听起来挺显然的，对吧？
And on the one hand, that seems obvious, right?
因为这其实是个过程。
Because it's a process.
学会识别我所说的‘边缘系统阻力’——虽然这不是个正式的科学术语，但意思就是，当你的情绪系统被激活，心里冒出‘我不想做’‘我害怕做’这种念头，然后你得逼自己去做的那个过程。
The learning to recognize the, what I call limbic friction, that's obviously not a real scientific term, but that, you know, limbic system or more autonomically activated, we feel like, oh, we don't want do it or we're afraid to do something and we have to push ourselves to do it.
这种能力是可以迁移到其他事情上的。
That's a process translates across things.
没错，我完全认同这一点。
Sure, I fully accept that.
但我相信，早上起床、到户外晒太阳、冲个冷水澡、锻炼一下，真的能让人进入一种状态，心里会想：嘿，你知道吗？
But as much as I believe that getting up in the morning, getting outside, getting sunlight, maybe taking a cold shower, getting a workout in can deliver people to a state of mind where they say, Hey, you know what?
到早上八点，我已经做完一堆难事了。
By 8AM, I did a lot of hard things.
接下来一整天里，不管遇到什么，都会觉得轻松多了。
Anything else that I confront during the day, it's gonna be much easier.
我承认这种说法有道理，但根据我自己的经验，做太多难事反而会消耗某种心理或体力资源，导致后面更难避开麻烦，也更难坚持下去。
While I acknowledge that can be true, I also acknowledge from my own experience that doing a bunch of hard things seems to exhaust some sort of mental and or physical resource that actually makes it harder to both avoid certain things and to push through hard things later.
所以很明显，这跟锻炼的强度有关。
And so obviously this depends on how hard you exercise.
你吃够了吗？
Are you eating enough?
你睡够了吗？
Are you sleeping enough?
但如果其他条件都一样，我很好奇，人脑里真有个‘自控力资源库’吗？
But assuming all things being equal, I'm just curious, is there a self control resource center?
这可能是分散在不同的神经回路中的。
It could be distributed across neural circuits.
当然，也可能是心理层面的，但这种东西真的存在吗？
It could be psychological too, of course, But does something like that exist?
在你的研究，或者别人的研究里，有这方面的证据吗？
And is there any evidence for that in your work or the work of others?
你刚才说的这两点，我马上想到了两个想法。
There's two thoughts that immediately come to mind with what you just said.
意思是，你通过做很多难事，慢慢学会了自己能搞定难事，也能应对其他挑战。
The idea that, you know, you can learn, like by doing lots of hard things, you learn that you can do hard things and do other hard things.
从动机的角度来看，这其实挺有意思的，因为这里可能涉及一种自我效能感。
I mean, think that's really interesting from a motivation perspective, because you could argue that, you know, what's going on here is that there's some kind of self efficacy component.
当我完成了一些难事，自信心就提升了，也更相信自己能应对更难的任务。
That when I've done hard things, my self esteem goes up and my estimation and confidence to be able to do harder things increases.
而且我们确实知道，自我效能感越强，人的动力就越足，表现也会越好。
And so and we do know that as self efficacy goes up, your your your ability to do things, your motivation goes up, and your ability to perform also goes up.
我们确实知道，自我效能感是非常重要的。
So we definitely know that self efficacy is a really important thing.
你提到的另一个可能性是疲惫感。
The other thing that you mentioned is the possibility of exhaustion.
我觉得这个话题特别有意思，因为在社会心理学里它一直很有争议。
And I find this really interesting because it's a highly controversial topic in social psychology.
今年二月曾掀起一波研究热潮，支持你所说的观点，认为自控力就像肌肉一样。
There was a big boom of experiments in the February that suggested just what you're saying, that self control is kind of like a muscle.
如果我把自控力用在一件事上，它就会被耗尽，影响其他所有事。
And if I use it for one type of task, I exhaust it for all others.
我得等它恢复过来，才能再次使用，就像其他肌肉一样。
And I have to wait order for it to recharge before I can do use it again, much like any other muscle.
而且，就像肌肉一样，如果长期持续使用，它也会变得更强。
Also like any other muscle, if I keep using it over time, it should get stronger.
当时确实有一些证据支持这两种说法。
And there were some evidence for both of those.
可惜的是，这些实验和沃尔特·米歇尔的研究一样，受到了质疑，人们怀疑它们是否能被重复出来。
Unfortunately, those experiments have, much like the Walter Mischel study, come under come under attack for whether or not they can replicate.
目前的结论还比较混乱。
And the conclusions are a bit mixed.
有一些研究叫多实验室合作项目，就是很多实验室一起合作，看能不能重复出某个结果。
There are some analyses, they're called multi lab experiments, where a whole bunch of labs get together and they try to see if they can replicate something.
这样就能避免研究者自身的偏见影响。
And that way you get rid of experimenter bias.
已经有好几个多实验室项目尝试重复过这个效应。
There are some multi lab replications that have tried to replicate this effect.
在实验室里，你先让人做一件需要自控力的难事，然后再做第二件。
So what you do in the lab is you do one hard task that require self control, and then you do a second one.
按照理论，如果第一件事消耗了自控力，那第二件事的表现就应该更差。
And the prediction would be if you've done a hard thing first, then you should be worse at the second one.
有一个多实验室实验没发现这个效应，另一个却证实了确实存在。
So one multi lab experiment did not show that it was that it worked, and another one showed it did.
那个显示实验无效的研究，是由最初开展这项研究的人主导的。
The one that showed it didn't work was led by people who conducted this research in the first place.
所以这个结果被认为非常有说服力。
So was seen as very damning.
如果连他们自己都复现不了，那这个现象可能根本不存在。
Like if they can't get this experiment to work, then it doesn't exist.
所以我认为学界普遍认为，这种现象其实并不存在，或者至少在实验室里无法稳定复现。
And so I think the consensus in the field is that it doesn't actually happen, or at least we can't get it to work in the lab.
为了更清楚一点，你说到‘不存在’，具体是指什么情况？
Could you just for clarity's sake, when you say it doesn't happen, what specifically are you Sure.
你指的是
Referring
比如说，我们让你用左手写点东西。
Let's say we have you do a task where you have to write something down with your left hand.
这需要很大的精力，也需要很强的自控力
Okay, so this requires a lot of effort, requires a lot of self control to
左撇子们可能会想，
Left handers out there are like,
哎，不是，不是，不是，
all right, no, no, no,
不是换另一只手。
not opposite hand.
对，对，我只是在强调一下，
Yeah, yeah, I'm just seizing
是你的非优势手。
Right, your non dominant hand.
没错。
Yep.
然后我们会让你做一些其他特别难的任务，比如需要抑制控制的。
Then we ask you to, you know, do some other really difficult tasks like some tasks that requires inhibition.
其中一个例子就是斯特鲁普任务，对吧？
So the one example is the Stroop task, Right?
你会看到用不同颜色字体写成的单词。
So you see words in different color fonts.
你的任务是识别出字体的实际颜色。
You're supposed to identify the font color.
比如，你看到‘blue’这个词是用红色墨水写的，虽然正确答案应该是‘红色’，但你还是会下意识地读出‘blue’，就想说‘蓝’。
But if you see the word blue in red ink, although the right response is that it's red because it's written in red ink, you automatically read the word blue, so you want to say blue.
这就需要你抑制住本能反应。
This requires inhibition.
你需要控制住自己，不让自动反应主导行为。
It requires you to stop your behavior.
研究发现，如果你先用非优势手写字，再做斯特鲁普任务，表现会变差。
And research suggested if you did the non dominant handwriting first, and then you did the Stroop task, that your Stroop task should become worse.
换句话说，你会更难压住自己只想读出单词的冲动。
In other words, you should have a harder time stopping yourself from just reading the word.
也就是说，如果你先用了左手写字，做斯特鲁普任务时出错更多，反应也更慢。
Again, so if you've done the left handed writing, then you make more mistakes, and you are slower in your responses at the Stroop task.
这就是所谓的耗竭效应，对吧？因为我累了，所以自控力就变差了，得等它恢复过来。
That's what's known as the depletion effect, right, because I got tired, and so therefore my self control is worse until it recharges.
有一项多实验室的实验，他们用了不同的任务来尝试类似的做法，我刚才给你的例子，大概就是他们常做的那种研究。
So one of these multi lab experiments, they try something like this using different tasks, but I've given you a sort of an example of what kinds of experiments they run.
但他们没能重复出耗竭效应。
And they could not replicate the depletion effect.
另一次规模小一点的多实验室研究，不是原始团队做的，却成功观测到了耗竭效应。
Another multilab experiment, though smaller in scale and not by the original authors, they were able to get the depletion effect.
所以目前证据有点混乱，还说不准耗竭这事儿到底存不存在。
So there's a little bit of just mixed evidence, and it's not clear whether depletion really is a thing.
作为研究者，我现在其实挺纠结的——我个人觉得耗竭确实是真实存在的，因为我自己天天都能感受到。
Now, me say as a researcher myself, I'm in this really uncomfortable position where I actually think depletion is a real phenomenon, because I experience it all the time in my own life.
但我认为，我们在实验室里研究它的方式并不够好，就像当年米歇尔的棉花糖实验一样，我觉得原始研究者也没能说清楚，到底需要什么条件。
Yet, I think the way that we have studied it in the lab hasn't been very good, because much like the Walter Mischel studies, I don't think the original authors were very good at trying to explain what exactly you need.
他们做实验时，那些没说出来的隐含假设到底是什么？正是这些细节让实验能成功。
What are the implicit decisions that they're making to set up this experiment that makes it work?
有人质疑他们作弊，甚至篡改数据。
There have been some accusations of like cheating and monkeying with the data.
我对这些说法不太清楚。
I don't know about that.
但我的看法是，自我损耗确实是真实存在的。
But my own take on this is I think depletion is real.
只是我们还没找到在实验室里准确捕捉它的方法。
I just don't think we figured out how to bottle it up in the lab.
我们知道，人们普遍认为自控力会耗尽，或者说意志力会消耗。
We do know that people believe that self control is depletable, or at least willpower is depletable.
你越相信这一点，就越容易表现出这些现象。
And the more you believe it, the more you show these patterns.
维罗妮卡·乔布的研究非常出色。
So there's amazing work by Veronica Job.
她设计了一份小问卷，问人们：当你完成一项费力的任务后，会觉得精力恢复了吗？
She has this little questionnaire that she asks, you know, if you engage in a strenuous task, do you feel recharged?
还是会觉得更累？
Or do you feel more tired?
那些说自己做完高强度任务后反而更有精神的人，真的就会表现出精力恢复的样子。
And those people who say they feel recharged act recharged after doing a really hard task.
所以对某些人来说，做难事就是难上加难。
So it's hard people doing hard things.
但那些认为‘做事情真的很耗精力’的人，一参与实验，就真的出现了精力耗竭的迹象。
But for people who say that, no, you know, I think it's exhausting, then when they're asked to do the experiment, they actually show the depletion effect.
因此，有证据表明，人们对意志力的日常看法，可能在很大程度上决定：做难事是让你更累，还是让你更有劲儿。
So there's some evidence that people's lay beliefs about willpower might really play a key role in whether doing hard things makes you tired or whether doing hard things recharges you.
我会牢牢记住一点：做难事会让接下来的难事变容易，因为我确实相信你提到的这种信念效应，还有我斯坦福的同事阿里·克鲁姆研究过的各种思维和行为模式中的类似现象。
Well, I'm going to stamp the belief into my mind that doing hard things makes other hard things easier because I do believe in the belief effects that you describe and that my colleague Ali Crum at Stanford has described for a number of different categories of thinking and behavior.
而且我本人也喜欢运动，喜欢那些据说能提升意志力的活动。
I also happen to like exercise and I happen to like the sorts of things that are supposedly building up willpower.
所以我会不断提醒自己这一点，不过你的观点我完全明白——我们对意志力的叙述，确实深刻影响着：做难事到底是让下一件事更难，还是更容易。
So, I'm going to tell myself this, but your point is taken, which is that our narratives about willpower matter a lot for whether doing hard things makes subsequent hard things harder or easier.
我对这类效应的具体性很好奇。
I'm curious about the specificity of these kinds of effects.
比如，如果人们做了各种艰难的事，但被要求关注自己的内在状态——能不能感觉到压力上升又下降？
For instance, if people do any number of hard things, but they're told to pay attention to their internal process, like can they feel their stress go up and then go down?
也许他们学会用缓慢呼气来降低自主神经的活跃度，这我们都知道能减缓心率等等。
Maybe they learn to do some long exhale breathing to lower their autonomic tone, which we know slows heart rate, etcetera.
人们能不能学会一种方法，然后把它应用到不同的情境中？
Can people learn a process that then they can apply across different scenarios?
因为在我看来，无论是学校、考试、体育，甚至极端一点的特种部队选拔，都有一件特别有意思的事。
Because I think one of the fascinating things to me about school, about exams, about sports, or at the extreme about screening for special operations.
我们这个播客请过很多海豹突击队和其他特种部队的人，他们常说，真正重要的不是冷水澡、运动，还是矩阵数学。
We've had many people from the SEAL team communities and other special operation communities on this podcast is this notion that maybe it doesn't matter so much whether it's cold water or it's exercise or it's matrix math.
关键是你要进入那种充满阻力的状态，然后觉察自己的身心在那一刻发生了什么，并学会与之共处。
The point is that you have to get into that place of friction and then recognize something about where and how your mind and body go and start to work with that.
我觉得这触及了意志力和韧性的更深层本质，没有任何一种单一方法能被称为最好的工具。
And I think that because that's getting to a deeper layer of willpower and tenacity that no one thing can really, we can say is like the best tool.
比如说，你是个受过良好训练的音乐人，虽然我可能算个没成功的音乐人吧，但我现在还是算没成功。
Like for instance, you're well trained musician having been a failed musician, I suppose I'm still a failed musician.
我也是个没成功的音乐人。
I too am a failed musician.
我能
I can
听不到乐器该发出的那些音，明明知道该是那样，可就是出不来，那种挫败感真的特别强烈。
say that not hearing the notes come out of the instrument that one would want to hear and that you're told should come out of the instrument is incredibly frustrating.
我觉得这种挫败，一点都不比做不了体力活来得轻，甚至更让人难受。
I think it's every bit, if not more frustrating than the inability to do something physical.
所以，其实重点根本不是我们在做什么，对吧？
So, it's not really about what we're doing, is it?
重点是能不能忍住这种摩擦感，忍住这种挫败。
It's really about being able to tolerate that friction, that frustration.
人能不能学会识别这种状态，然后顶过去，把这种能力用到运动、乐器、学习、育儿，或者任何其他事情上？
Can people learn to recognize that state and push through that state and therefore translate it across everything from sport to instruments, to school, to parenting, to whatever.
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我觉得你讲的特别有意思，我脑子里冒出了好多想法，我会尽量有条理地一一说出来。
I what think you're saying is really interesting, and I have a whole bunch of thoughts, which I'm gonna try to get out in a systematic and organized way.
首先，我并不是这方面的专家，但我们确实知道，每个人对不适感的承受能力不一样，这因人而异。
So first, again, I'm not an expert in this area, but we do know that people have differential distress tolerance, how much unpleasantness they're willing to put themselves through, and there are individual differences.
据我所知，这种能力应该是可以通过训练提升的，通常是通过逐步接触来实现的。
As far as I know, it probably can be trained, and usually through exposure.
不过，我再次强调，我不是这方面的专家。
But again, I'm not an expert in this area.
关于意志力，我能说的是，目前那些意志力训练方法效果非常有限。
What I can speak to with respect specifically to willpower is that willpower training paradigms have shown to shown very limited success.
比如，你做斯特鲁普测试，重复成百上千次，甚至上万次。
So for example, if, again, imagine you're doing the Stroop task and you're doing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of these trials.
另一个训练方法是，回家后刻意用非惯用手做所有事，而不是用惯用手。
Another training exercise is you literally go home and you practice doing everything with your non dominant hand as opposed to using your dominant hand.
这些所谓的意志力练习，你坚持一周后再回来测试。
So these willpower exercises, you do them for a week and you come back.
一些研究认为，这些方法确实能提升自我控制力。
Some experiments have suggested that they do in fact improve self control.
但也有人认为根本没用。
Others say that they don't.
综合来看，现有文献的评估表明，尽管你付出了大量努力，效果却远没有你期望的那么明显，而且因人而异。
And on average, reviews of this literature have suggested that the effect is much smaller than you might hope despite all the work that you put in, and it's very variable.
有些人会有一点进步，但幅度很小，而很多人根本看不到任何变化。
So some people will see some gains, but they'll be small, but many people will see no gains.
以上说的是关于意志力的具体情况。
That's about willpower specifically.
接下来，我得说得更细致一点。
And and this is at the point where I have to get a little bit more detailed.
我觉得意志力和自我控制其实是两回事。
I think there's a difference between willpower and self control.
意志力只是提升自我控制能力的一种方式，但不是唯一的方式。
So willpower is one of the ways that we improve and enhance our self control abilities, but it's not the only one.
其他的那些方法，我之前已经跟你提过一些，是沃尔特·米歇尔通过延迟满足实验发现的。
And so the other ones, I've already described some of them to you that Walter Mischel discovered with the delay of gratification paradigm.
他研究的并不是意志力。
So he wasn't studying willpower.
他不是在测试孩子能不能硬撑着，靠自己的意志压制冲动。
He wasn't seeing he wasn't testing whether children could just gut it out and use their own brains to inhibit their behavior.
他关注的是孩子会用哪些办法，比如捂住眼睛、盖住盘子、转过头去，或者把棉花糖想象成蓬松的白云，又或者想象它被一个相框框起来。
Instead, he was looking at things like covering your eyes or covering the bowl or turning your head or imagining the marshmallows to be puffy white clouds or imagining that there's a picture frame around it.
那根本不是真的棉花糖。
So it's not real.
那只是个图像而已。
It's just it's just a picture.
孩子们用的这些行为和心理策略，都能提升自控力，但完全不需要依赖意志力。
All of these different behavioral and psychological strategies that children were using, these enhance self control without leveraging willpower.
这时候你可能会问，那意志力到底是什么？
At this point, you could ask, what is willpower?
在心理学里，‘意志力’到底意味着什么其实并不明确，但大多数人认为，意志力就是努力压制或抑制冲动的倾向。
And it's not actually clear in psychology what that actually means, but most people understand willpower to be the effortful inhibition or suppression of impulsive tendencies.
面前放着一块美味的蛋糕，我特别想吃。
So there's a yummy piece of cake in front of me, and I'm really tempted to eat it.
意志力或者自我控制，就是主动跟这种诱惑对抗，告诉自己：别想它，别屈服，别采取任何行动。
Willpower or inhibition is the active fighting of that temptation, telling myself, don't think about it, don't give in, don't do something about it.
我觉得，这种用心理力量强行压住冲动的想法，正是自我控制最典型的模式。
And I think this is sort of the paradigmatic sort of version of self control in which you use your mental muscles to push down those ideas.
那些训练方式，就是我之前说过的，效果并不好。
Those trainings are the ones I was telling are not very effective.
但像闭上眼睛、想象一只蟑螂爬过蛋糕，或者问自己：如果孩子看到你吃了蛋糕，而你明明说过不吃，他们会怎么想——这些其他策略，是可以训练的。
But training some of the other strategies that we might have, like closing your eyes or imagining a cockroach crawl across the cake or asking yourself, you know, what your children would say if they saw you eating the chocolate cake after saying that you wouldn't.
所有这些行为和心理上的方法，或者我们说的工具，都是可以学习的，而且确实能提升你的自我控制能力。
All these other strategies, behavioral and psychological strategies or tools as we might refer to them, those can be taught and those can in fact improve your self control.
所以，自我控制到底能不能通过学习变得更好？我觉得答案是肯定的。
So whether or not self control is something that you can learn to get better at, I think the answer there is yes.
至于意志力能不能通过练习变得更强，我就没那么确定了。
Whether willpower is something that you can get better at, there I am not so sure.
我脑子里一直有个想法，是基于神经科学的。
I have this kind of running theory in my mind, which is anchored in neuroscience.
我们知道，大脑里有些区域参与更复杂的活动，比如想象当下的自己、回忆过去、规划未来目标，这些高级策略的形成确实离不开前额叶，但这是一个分布式的系统。
We know that areas of the brain are involved in kind of more sophisticated processes where we can imagine ourself now, think about our past, think about our goals in the future, kind of a high level strategy formation, definitely involves the forebrain, but it's a distributed phenomenon.
这一点大家应该都认同。
I think everyone agrees on that.
另外，还有一些脑区，通过神经外科的电刺激、脑损伤等研究，我们知道它们就像开关一样。
And then we have brain areas that we know from stimulation during neurosurgery, brain lesions, etcetera, that they're kind of like switches.
它们会让你想吃东西。
It's like they make you want to eat.
它们会让你想发生性行为。
They make you want to mate.
它们会让你想呕吐。
They make you want to vomit.
各种各样的情况都可能触发。
Any number of things.
这些属于下丘脑，属于深层边缘系统和下丘脑的回路。
These are hypothalamic, they're sort of deep limbic and hypothalamic circuitry.
我有个很粗略的想法：当我们需要抑制某种行为，或者要推动自己长期坚持一件难事时，一旦遇到阻力——比如明明该做的事却不想做，或者很难抗拒不该做的事——我们就得往边缘系统和下丘脑更深处挖一层。
And I have this very crude idea that when it comes to suppression of behavior, or it comes to aspirational behaviors, like motivating to do something hard over time, that when we find ourselves at a friction point, like we don't wanna do something we should, or we're having a hard time resisting something that we shouldn't, that we have to go a layer deeper into the limbic system and hypothalamus.
得想出比你刚才说的‘蟑螂在棉花糖上’还要直白、更原始的应对办法。
Like we just have to come up with contingencies that are much grosser than the, like you said, like a cockroach on a marshmallow.
糖就是好东西。
It's like sugar's good.
我们天生就有对糖分和脂肪的偏好，这种反应是刻在神经回路里的。
We have an innate circuit for being drawn towards sugary things, fatty things, yum, that's like hardwired.
所以，我们得往反胃的反应那边靠一靠，对吧？
So we go towards the vomit reflex a little bit, right?
我们不想起床去上课，因为实在太累了，疲劳是真实存在的。
We don't want to get up and go to class because we're exhausted and fatigue is real.
疲劳是实实在在的。
Fatigue is real.
它会让我们的前额叶瘫痪，导致这些脑区功能受损。
It shuts down our forebrain, so the circuits are impaired.
我们的下丘脑在催我们回去继续睡觉。
Our hypothalamus is driving us to like go back to sleep.
但我们要想想，考试时迟到、啥也不会的场景，那种噩梦谁没做过几次？
But we have to think about the fear of showing up in class for an exam and not knowing, you know, it's the nightmare everybody's had at least once, right?
所以我觉得，应对策略其实是往更深层的恐惧、厌恶这些情绪里挖。
So I feel like the control strategy seems to be to go to a deeper layer of fear, disgust, etcetera.
那反过来呢？正向激励的效果怎么样？
How well does the opposite work?
就是说，对美好事物的向往有多大的驱动力？
Like how good is aspiration for good stuff?
因为这些也是推动人类行为的强大力量。
Because those are also powerful drivers of human behavior.
我很好奇，有没有人做过实验，来区分恐惧和爱这类截然不同的情绪，广义上说，帮我们应对各种情况。
And I'm curious whether experiments have been done to differentiate between sort of fear and love, if you will, to put it broadly, to allow us to navigate all sorts of circumstances.
但我特别喜欢这个想法——追逐爱，追逐渴望，这些美好的东西。
But I love the idea that chasing love, chasing desire, all these great things.
但有时候我们得提醒自己：不行，得想想那蟑螂，不然我又要躺回去，按掉闹钟了。
But there are times when we have to be like, oh no, I got to imagine the cockroach or else this whole, I'll go back to sleep, I'll hit the snooze button.
我觉得你刚才说的，安德鲁，其实比你自己意识到的还要深刻得多。
I think what you're saying, Andrew, is something super profound, more profound than you might think.
多年来，自我控制领域的研究者一直认为，自我控制的关键恰恰和你所说的相反，就是要关闭那个‘热系统’。
So for years, self control researchers have assumed that the secret to self control is actually doing exactly the opposite of what you suggested, which is turning off the hot system.
对吧？
Right?
因为他们觉得，这些边缘系统、这些‘热系统’，也就是所谓的更原始的本能系统，才是让诱惑如此强大的根源。
Because they argue that these limbic systems, these hot systems, these more quote unquote animalistic systems, are the things that make the temptation so powerful.
所以一旦激活这些系统，我们其实是在放大那些诱惑的冲动。
And so by activating those systems, all we're doing is we're upregulating the temptation impulses.
多年来，这一直是瓦尔特·米歇尔核心模型的一部分，还有很多其他人也这么讲，他们说要让自己的想法冷静下来。
And so for years, and this is part of Walter Mischel's fundamental model, for example, and many, many others, they talked about making your cognitions cooler.
也就是说，压制情绪系统，用冷静理智的态度去看待眼前的事物，这样才能做出正确的选择。
In other words, shutting down the emotional system and thinking very coolly and calmly about the thing in front of you in order to make the right choice.
我觉得你所说的特别深刻，比你自己意识到的还要深刻，因为你提出了两种不同的方式。
I think what's profound about what you're saying is that you've articulated two alternatives.
一种是以火攻火。
One is that I fight fire with fire.
如果有什么东西在拉扯我，我就找点别的东西来推我一把。
So if this thing is pulling me, I'm gonna find something that's gonna push me away.
对吧？
Right?
就像你说的例子，面前有一块巧克力蛋糕，我就想象一只蟑螂正从上面爬过。
And as you said, the example would be like, there's a piece of chocolate cake, and I imagine a cockroach crawling across it.
但其实这方面的研究并不多。
There's not actually very much research on that.
目前主流的自我控制理论，几乎都强调要让自己的思绪冷静下来。
The most most of the dominant models in self control really talk about cooling your cognitions.
人们总告诉你别以火攻火，得保持冷静和理智。
You're told not to fight fire with fire, that you need to be in a calm and collected state.
我觉得你说得对，是因为我另外一些研究关注的是另一种策略——也就是你提到的，找到热爱。
The reason why I think what you're saying is true is that I have some other work looking at the other strategy, which is, you said, finding love.
在我的研究中，我们发现，如果能让人思考自己这么做的原因，比如做决定背后的真正意义，以及更宏大的目标，他们就更有可能抵抗诱惑。
So in my own research, we have shown that if we can get people to think about their whys, you know, the purposes behind their decisions, the broader purposes behind what they're doing, they're much more likely to be able to overcome the temptation.
如果面前有一块巧克力蛋糕，而我正努力不吃它，光想着蛋糕本身，那真的很难撑住。
So if there's a piece of chocolate cake in front of me and I'm trying not to eat it, if I only think about cake related things that could be really difficult.
但如果你只是告诉自己‘我正在节食，不能吃’，这种理由其实没什么力量。
But if instead I asked myself, like, and even if you said, Oh, I'm not supposed to eat that because I'm on a diet, that doesn't have much magic to it.
听起来太枯燥了，根本打动不了我。
It's like it's kind of sterile, it doesn't move me in any way.
但如果你换种想法，比如‘我得为家人这么做’，情况就不一样了。
But if instead I'm saying things like, need to do this for my family.
我这么做是为了我的孩子们。
I need to do this to get to my children.
我想在孩子的婚礼照片里看起来好看，或者他们看着我的时候我能做个好榜样，还有其他各种更深层的理由——比如为了更健康、更苗条，或者不吃这块蛋糕，我们发现，这些理由能大大提高人们抵制诱惑的可能性。
I want to look good for my children's for my children's wedding photos or, you know, my children are looking at me or I want to be a good example or all these other kinds of reasons that you might these higher order reasons that you might have for getting healthier, being fitter, or whatever, not eating the cake, we show that that increases the odds that people will avoid the the cake.
我们认为，这是因为这些理由赋予了行为意义。
And we think it's because it's giving people meaning.
它让当下的选择充满力量，就像你说的，不是用恐惧去对抗诱惑，而是用爱去应对。
It's infusing the moment, as you say, fighting fire, like, fighting fire with fire, not with fear, but with love.
这些是我真正在乎的更高层次的目标，正是它们让我有力量坚持下去。
Like, these are these are higher order things that I care about, and these are what's gonna motivate me to hold out.
你举的最初那个例子，其实揭示了一种不太一样的方式——不是用正面的东西去对抗诱惑，而是把正面的东西转化成负面的警示。
What you're highlighting is with your original example, something a little bit different than that, which is fighting fire by taking the positive and turning it into a negative.
我的博士生保罗·斯蒂尔曼和他同事凯特琳·伍利做了一些实验，他们发现，人们通常一想到自控，就会考虑短期或长期的好处。
And my PhD student Paul Stillman and a colleague of his, Caitlin Woolley, they did some experiments in which they had people think about it's usually when you think about self control, you think about the short term or long term gains.
但他们让参与者去思考放纵行为会带来的短期损失。
They instead had people think about the short term losses of indulging.
所以，想想看，如果你吃了巧克力蛋糕，接下来会经历的血糖骤降是什么感觉？
So what are some of the things like what's the like, think about the sugar crash that you would experience if you ate the chocolate cake.
对吧？
Right?
他们发现，这种想法就像你提到的反胃反应一样，效果很强。
So and they showed that that kind of served much like you were talking about the vomit response.
足以让人远远避开。
It pushes people away far enough.
他们当时处于短期思维模式。
They're in the short term mindset.
脑子里想的都是眼前的事。
They're thinking about short term things.
短期的诱惑在拉扯着他们。
The short term is pulling them in.
所以他们用一种短期的排斥感来对抗它。
So they fight that with a short term repellent.
他们发现，这种方法对自我控制也非常有效。
And they found that that's also very effective for self control.
你的观点几乎完全颠覆了当前自我控制研究中的主流看法。
So your ideas are almost antithetical to what most people would say the status quo in self control research.
正因如此，我特别兴奋，因为我的研究已经开始挑战这个观念，保罗·斯蒂尔曼和凯特琳·威尔利的研究也是如此——我们或许能利用边缘系统。
But for that reason, I'm super excited because my own work is starting to challenge that idea as is as is Paul Stillman and Caitlin Willey's that we might be able to use the limbic system.
我们或许能借助自己的情绪化反应。
We might be able to use our hot reactions.
我们不必默认这些反应总是有害的，或者一定会让我们更容易放纵自己。
We we don't have to assume that they're gonna be bad, but or they're gonna they're gonna predispose us to indulgence, and make us susceptible to indulgence.
相反，它们反而可能激发我们，给我们动力去做正确的事。
But instead, they might be what inspires us and gives us the motivation to do the right thing.
我觉得这真的非常令人振奋。
And I think that is really exciting.
太有意思了。
Fascinating.
我很高兴你正在做这项研究。
And I'm so glad you're doing that work.
我们之前请过大卫·戈金斯来这个播客，就是《不能击垮我》那本书的作者，以整天挑战极限出名。
You know, we had David Goggins on this podcast, David, author of Can't Hurt Me, and famed for doing hard things all day long.
在他出书、还没公开露面之前，我就认识他了。
I knew David before he had a book, before he was public facing.
我记得第一次见他是在一次会议上，会后他说他得赶去机场。
And I can tell you, I met him at a meeting and afterwards he said he was running to the airport.
我当时以为他只是急着赶路，毕竟那通常就是这个词的意思。
And I thought he meant like rushing to the airport because that's what that means to me.
结果他真的是跑步去的机场。
He was literally running to the airport.
我们离圣何塞机场有16英里远。
We're 16 miles away from San Jose Airport.
他换完衣服，直接拖着行李就跑向机场了。
He went in the back change and he like ran to the airport with his luggage.
他一直都是这样，至少我认识他以来一直都是。
So he's always been that way, at least as long as I've known him.
我觉得大卫之所以能成为激励人心的典范，原因之一是他毫不避讳地提到，跑步时他会戴着耳机听社交媒体上的负面评论。
And I think one of the reasons David is such a shining example of motivation is that he is very open about the fact that he listens to negative comments from social media in his headphones when he runs.
他本人也谈过这件事。
He's talked about that.
如果他没做到，他就对自己说，自己简直一无是处。
He tells himself what a piece of garbage he is if he doesn't do this.
说白了，他就是靠自我鞭策才坚持做这些事的。
I mean, he basically flagellates himself into doing these things.
如果你劝他，说也许你可以换种温和一点的方式，
And any attempt to suggest to him like, Oh, maybe you could take like a more soft gloves approach.
他根本听不进去。
Like he's not hearing it.
但显然，这套方法对他很管用。
It clearly works for him.
他现在其实回去当兵了。
He's actually right now, I think he went back to the military.
他还在学急救护理。
He's also in paramedic school.
我觉得他很可能以后会当医生。
I think he's probably becoming a physician too.
他真是这种风格的绝佳例子。
I mean, he's a remarkable example of that approach.
这种做法对很多人来说太难了，有些人甚至说这算病态。
It's an approach that's very hard for a lot of people and some people would say it's pathological.
我不觉得是病态，毕竟对他有效，而如果不这样，情况只会更糟。
I don't believe it is because it clearly works for him and the alternative was far worse.
他自己也会这么说。
He'll tell you that as well.
我们甚至都可以聊聊饮食失调的问题，对吧？
We could even talk about eating disorders, right?
每次我们讨论克制吃蛋糕的冲动时，总有一部分人会说：哦，所以你讲的其实是饮食失调，对吧？
Anytime we have a discussion about suppression of the impulse to eat cake, there's gonna be a subset of people out there that are saying, oh, so what you're talking about is eating disorders, right?
换个条件刺激。
Switching the contingency.
如果我能躲开它，就觉得有成就感，这和某些饮食失调有关。
If I can avoid it, that's rewarding, which is associated with certain eating disorders.
我很喜欢这种观点：你可以用积极的结果来激励自己。
I love the idea that there's this other side, that you could entice yourself with the positive outcome.
我听出来你的意思是，如果是短期的挣扎，比如现在，就想想当下的利弊。
What I'm hearing you say is that if it's a short term battle, like right now, think about the downside or the upside right now.
如果是长期的斗争，就得从长远的利与弊来考虑。
If it's a long term battle, you wanna think in terms of long term outcomes both bad and good.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
我们是不是该把这些方法都纳入自己的工具箱？
Should we have all of those in our toolkit?
我完全同意你的观点。
I completely agree with you.
而且我很喜欢你用‘工具箱’这个词。
And I love the fact that you used the word toolkit.
我的同事伊桑·克罗斯和我写过一篇论文，里面提到了‘自我控制工具箱’。
My colleague, Ethan Cross and I, we wrote a paper in which we talked about the self control toolkit.
我们主要想表达的是，提升自控力其实有很多不同的方法。
Basically, we argued we have lots of different ways to enhance self control.
我们推测，某些工具可能在特定时间对特定的人更有效。
We speculate that certain tools might work better for certain people at certain times.
目前我们还没有一个很好的框架，能准确预测哪种策略最适合某类人面对某种情况。
We don't currently have a very good framework for predicting what would be the right strategy for this kind of person in this kind of situation.
如果你的听众说：‘这招对我完全没用’，我也完全能理解。
And so if your listeners are saying, Wow, that totally would not work for me, That's okay by me too.
我觉得不可能有一种方法适合所有人。
I don't think there's going to be one tool that's going to work for everybody.
自我控制工具箱的理念明确承认，不同的人适合不同的方法。
The self control toolbox approach explicitly embraces the idea that different things are going to work for different people.
如果你是个特别反感别人建议的人，总想着‘我偏要自己来’，那你可以想想别人对你有多失望，这样反而会激发你去证明给他们看。
So if you're the kind of person who's very reactant, someone who says, No, I can do it, then you might want to think about all the bad things people say about you, because you're going to react to it and say, No, I'm going to do it.
但如果你容易受别人影响，会认真听别人怎么说，而他们又在批评你，那这些话很可能让你失去动力，对吧？
But if you're the kind of person who tends to listen to what people say, and you incorporate their perspectives, and they're saying bad things about you, well then that's probably going to have a demotivating effect, right?
所以，对某个人特别有效的方法，未必适合另一个人。
So, again, the strategy that works so well for one individual may not work for another.
有些自我控制的方法，可能只在特定情境下有效，换了个环境就不灵了。
It may also be that certain self control strategies work for certain contexts and not for others.
比如对我来说，最难的不是锻炼本身，而是怎么开始。
So for example, you know, for me getting started with the workout is the hardest part.
我总能找出一堆理由，说明今天为什么不能练。
Have all a litany of reasons why I don't want to do this today.
所以对我来说，最难的只是跨上自行车，或者拿起哑铃的那一刻。
And so for me, the hardest part is just getting on the bike or starting to lift weights.
有时候， просто穿上运动服就够了。
You know, sometimes it's just putting on the workout clothes.
我常用的策略是问自己：如果是我的偶像，他们会怎么处理这种情况？
The strategies I use for that, I usually tell myself, like, you know, what would my heroes do in this situation?
就是那种所谓的‘耶稣会怎么做’的想法。
So the quote unquote, what would Jesus do?
我觉得在这种情况下面，这个方法特别管用。
I think it's a very effective strategy in those kinds of situation.
你会想象一个你特别敬佩的人，或者想象有人正以你为榜样，然后你希望自己能成为那个值得敬佩的人，或者让别人在你身上看到他们想成为的样子——对我而言，这能帮我迈出锻炼的第一步。
You imagine someone that you really admire, or you imagine someone who looks up to you, and you have you wanna be you wanna be person that you admire or you wanna be that person that people see in you, that, for me, helps me get going for the beginning of exercise.
但到了最后阶段，比如拼尽最后一组力量，或者在艰难攀爬的最后几分钟，这些方法就不太管用了。
But when it comes toward the end, when I'm, like, just pumping out that last rep or I'm just the last minute of a really hard climb, these things don't work so well for me.
那时候，我只想咬紧牙关，硬撑过去。
Like, for me, at that point, I just wanna grip my teeth and get it done.
所以，意志力可能是更有效的办法。
And so willpower might be a better strategy.
所以我们得把自我控制的整个工具箱都探索一遍。
So I think we have to explore the entirety of the self control toolbox.
必须通过不断尝试和调整，找到最适合自己的方法。
We have to and through trial and error, find what works best for us.
这也是我想对听众强调的：自我控制是一种需要量身定制的技能。
This is another reason why I would like to stress to your listeners that self control is a skill that you tailor for yourself.
而且这是一辈子的旅程。
And it's a lifelong journey.
对吧？
Right?
我没法站在这儿说，你只要做这三件事，立马就能变得超棒。
I'm not going be able to get up here and say do x, y, z, and all of a sudden people are going to be amazing.
相反，他们得去试，也得去失败。
Instead, they have to try and they have to fail.
而真正的成长恰恰来自失败——你会意识到，这招不适合我，至少现在不适合。
And it's in the failure where you actually learn the most because you say, oh, that's not for me, or at least that wasn't for me at this time.
我觉得这个方法特别令人振奋，也让人充满希望，因为很多人在自我控制上失败时，只会觉得自己是个糟糕的人。
The reason why I find this approach really exciting and also hopeful is that I think a lot of people when they fail at self control, they just say, I'm terrible person.
我永远都做不到。
I'm never gonna get this.
我就是自制力差，意志力薄弱。
I just have bad self control, bad willpower.
但如果我们把学习和工具箱的视角带进来，就会说：好吧，这次这个方法不管用。
But instead, the learning approach, the toolbox approach just says, okay, that tool didn't work this time.
失败其实是个机会，能让你自我成长、探索和发现，这样心态就积极多了，而不是想：天啊，我真是搞砸了。
And failure represents an opportunity for self growth and exploration and discovery, which makes it a lot more positively toned as opposed to wow, I really screwed up.
我是个糟糕的人。
I'm a terrible person.
我的目标彻底没戏了。
My goal is forever gone.
我认为，理解自我控制不是与生俱来的本事，而是通过不断学习和积累慢慢培养出来的，这个观点非常关键。
And I think that's a really important implication of understanding self control not as an innate skill, but something that you grow and cultivate over time with things that you learn.
你们很多人可能知道，我喝AG1已经快十五年了。
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly fifteen years now.
我早在2012年就发现了它，那时候还没做播客，从那以后每天都喝。
I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
据我所知，AG1是市面上质量最高、成分最全面的基础营养补充剂。
AG1 is to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
它把维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原都浓缩在一小勺里，冲着好喝，喝起来也方便。
It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink and tastes great.
它主要帮助支持肠道健康、免疫力，还有整体的精力水平。
It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy.
通过弥补你日常饮食中可能缺失的营养成分来发挥作用。
And it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.
当然，我们都该吃高质量的天然食物，但大多数人可能还是吃不够益生元、维生素和矿物质，AG1正好能补上这些缺口。
And of course we should all eat high quality whole foods, but most of us are probably not getting enough prebiotics, vitamins and minerals, and AG1 ensures that those gaps are filled.
经常有人问我，如果只能选一种补充剂，你会推荐哪一种？
I get asked all the time by people if they were to take just one supplement, what would my recommendation for that supplement be?
我的答案永远是AG1，因为它对我的身体健康、心理健康和表现支持至关重要，填补了那些基础营养的缺口。
And my answer is always AG1 because it's just been so critical for supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance by covering those nutritional, what we call foundational basis.
根据我自己的经验，以及所有我推荐过的人反馈，只要坚持服用，大家都会在很多方面感觉状态明显更好。
And I know from my own experience and from everyone I've heard that I recommended it to, that they simply feel much better in a number of different ways when they take it regularly.
如果你想试试AG1，可以去drinkag1.com/huberman，享受专属优惠。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
限时活动中，AG1会免费赠送你一周的AGZ睡眠补充剂，还有维生素D3K2一瓶，只要订阅就送。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a week supply of AGZ, which is their sleep supplement and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription.
AGZ是我参与设计的产品。
AGZ is something that I helped design.
味道非常好。
It tastes great.
这是我唯一在用的助眠补充剂。
And it's the only sleep supplement I take.
它含有一系列成分，极大改善了我的睡眠，无论是深度慢波睡眠，还是快速眼动睡眠。
It has a collection of different things in it that has dramatically improved my sleep, both my slow wave deep sleep and my rapid eye movement sleep.
我真的很喜欢它。
And I absolutely love it.
再次提醒，前往 drinkag1.com/huberman，订阅即可免费获得一周的 AGZ 和一瓶 D3K2。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a week supply of AGZ and a bottle of D3K2 with your subscription.
动力也需要热身吗？
Is motivation something that needs warming up?
我一直觉得好笑，我们都知道运动前得先热身。
I've long chuckled at the fact that we understand that you need to warm up before exercise.
就算是跑步，也得先慢跑一会儿，才能冲刺。
Even it's running, you got to jog a little bit before you sprint.
做正式训练前，肯定得先做几组热身动作。
Certainly, we need warm up sets before we do our work sets.
大家都明白这个道理。
Everyone understands this.
但不知为什么，很多人总觉得专注力和做困难的脑力或创意工作，应该像开关一样，一到场就能立刻进入状态。
But for some reason, I think people assume that focus and doing hard things mentally or creatively should be like a step function where you're like, show up to the work and you're like, focus.
我一向认为，得让大家明白，专注是需要热身的。
I like to think I've tried to spread the gospel of, look, it's going take a little bit of warming up.
你的思绪很可能会飘到别的地方去。
Your mind's going to flick to other things.
你完全可以进入状态，但得有个过程。
I mean, and you can drop into a groove.
我觉得特别有意思的是，关于下丘脑，还有那些更高阶的大脑状态，模型显示，你的大脑状态就像一颗钢珠在平面上滚动，四处游移。
I mean, I think the really interesting research on both the hypothalamus, but also these higher brain states, if you will, that the models say that there's sort of like an attractor model where your brain state is sort of like a ball bearing on a flat surface that's kind of moving around and the ball bearing's moving.
随着时间推移，这个平面会慢慢变成凹陷的，你最终会滑进状态，但这个过程需要时间。
And then over time it becomes more and more concave and eventually focus you drop into a groove, but that takes time.
这得靠反复练习。
It takes reps.
得一遍又一遍地拿起手机，第三次拿起的时候才突然醒悟：得把这玩意儿从眼前拿走。
It takes the mind picking up your phone again for the third time and then going, you know, just got to get this thing out of the room.
专注不是一按开关就能来的。
That focus isn't just like a switch.
动机也不是一按就开的开关。
Motivation isn't just like a switch.
我觉得很多人要么根本没听过，要么不信，但至少据我所知，每个人都亲身体验过。
And I don't think people really, they either haven't heard it or they don't believe it, but everyone at least to my knowledge has experienced it.
我们不是机器。
We're not robots.
我们不是机器。
We're not robots.
那有没有什么方法，能让人更快、更有效地进入专注状态，或者从有动力的状态中抽身出来？
And so are there tools that people can use to either embed that knowledge or to move into focus states more quickly or more effectively as well as move out of motivated states?
有没有人研究过任务之间的过渡，把它当成一种有用的技巧？
Has anything been studied about transitions between tasks as something useful?
因为我们的生活是动态变化的，对吧？
Because we have dynamic lives, right?
不只是锻炼、上课、带孩子，或者别的什么事，单一地看待问题。
It's not just about the workout or just about the class or just about you know, parenting or just about whatever it is.
我们必须从一件事切换到另一件事，而这些涉及的是完全不同的大脑回路。
We have to move from one thing to the next, and these are very different brain circuits.
我觉得你讲的这个观点特别有意思。
I think what you're saying is really fascinating.
我很喜欢‘吸引子状态’这个说法。
I love this idea of attractor states.
在我的研究里，我们没有这样的模型，也不用‘热身’这种说法。
In my own work, we don't have that kind of model and we don't use the language of warming up.
但我们确实知道，你对一件事的看法和你感受到的动机之间，存在着动态的互动关系。
But we do know that there is a dynamic interplay between how you think about something and the motivation that you're experiencing.
对吧？
Right?
如果把锻炼看成是‘又得挨一小时的苦’，那肯定提不起劲；但如果你换种想法，就像阿里亚·克鲁姆那些研究成长型思维的人说的，只要你调整了看待这件事的认知角度，就能激活另一套动机。
So if a workout is, you know, oh, another hour of pain, like we're not going get super excited about it, but if instead you change your mindset about it, and again this is the power of work that Aliyah Krum and folks who do growth mindsets think about, if you change sort of the cognitive orientation you have towards it, a different set of motivations can activate it.
我不再把它当成一小时的煎熬，而是想着‘我正在成为更好的自己’——这种想法一变，相应的动机就被调动起来了，自然就能更投入地去完成这件事。
So if I say it's not an hour of pain, but instead of me becoming the better me, that set of cognitions, that set of thoughts activates a different set of motives that comes to bear and can then be applied to the task at hand.
这算不上真正的热身，但在某种意义上确实有点像。
Now that's not quite warming up, but in some senses it is a warm up.
关键是找到一组能帮你最大化当下动力的思维方式。
It's sort of finding the right set of thoughts that are working through your maximize the motivation that you're experiencing at a given time.
还有一点值得思考：动力不仅关乎多少，还关乎类型。
Another interesting thing to think about is that there's sometimes it's not just about the amount of motivation, but it's also the type of motivation.
比如很多运动都分进攻和防守两个部分。
For example, many sports have an offense oriented component and a defense oriented component.
它们很可能需要完全不同的心理状态，也要求不同的动机取向。
And they probably require very different mindsets and they probably also require different motivational orientations.
在动机研究中，一个非常重要的区分是：追求成长与获得， versus 避免损失与保障安全。
One of the most important orientations that we know for motivation science is an orientation towards nurturance and advancement, moving forward gains, versus an orientation towards safety and security, preventing losses.
有人推测，也有研究支持这一观点：为特定任务匹配恰当的动机，能显著提升表现。
And there's been some speculation that and there's been some research to support this that having the right kind of motivation for the right kind of tasks enhances performance.
比如打进攻时，关键不是怕输，而是要赢。
So if I'm playing offense, right, there's always there's always that notion that you don't wanna play not to lose, you wanna play to win.
对吧？
Right?
这一点在进攻时尤其明显。
And that's particularly true of offense.
所以进攻时，重点应该是追求进步、提升和收获。
So in offense, wanna be about advancement, promotion, gains.
但当你防守时，有时候重点反而在于避免失误和损失。
But when you're on defense, right, at times, it might it very well might be about preventing losses.
如果真是这样——当然不是所有运动都适用，但对某些运动来说确实如此——那么你在进攻时处于追求进步的心态，防守时处于防范损失的心态，表现可能会更好。
And so if that were true, and again, not true for every sport, but if that is true for a particular sport, you might do better if you're in a more promotion motivational state when you are on offense, and a more prevention orient motivational state when you're on defense.
如果搞混了，你的表现就不会那么好。
And if you get that mixed up, you won't be as effective.
所以，当心态和任务匹配时，研究显示你的表现会提升。
So when you get the match, research suggests that you enhance performance.
但如果心态和任务不匹配，你就像是没找到节奏，表现也会打折扣。
But if you get a mismatch, you kind of have like not quite grooving, and you won't perform as well.
你不是不太对，而是根本感觉不对劲。
You're not kind of not right.
你就是感觉状态不好。
You're just not feeling right.
你觉得自己没在最佳状态。
You're not feeling fit.
其实有关调节契合的研究表明，如果你能匹配任务所需的动机状态——让自己以恰当的方式去应对当前任务，表现就会更好。
You know, there is research on regulatory fit and it suggests if you can if you can get task motivation fit, if you can find the if you can get yourself in the right motivation for the task at hand, you'll have enhanced performance.
我之所以提到这个，是因为我和同事阿比盖尔·肖勒以及戴维·米利进行的研究发现，人们其实对这一点是有一定觉察的。
Now the reason why I bring this up is because research that I've conducted with my colleague Abigail Scholler and David Mealy, we've shown that people have some insight into this.
他们知道，有些任务更适合以追求收益的心态去应对，而有些任务则更适合以避免损失的心态去处理。
They know there are certain tasks that you're better it's better to be promotion on this task, and it's better to be prevention on this task.
他们也大致明白，自己需要调动什么样的思维方式才能达到那种状态。
And they also kind of know the thought processes that they have to engage in in order to get there.
所以，你是更关注能获得什么，还是更担心会失去什么？
So are you gonna be thinking about gains or are you thinking about losses?
你是更偏向于安全型思维，还是进取型思维？
Are you gonna be more in a sort of a, you know, again, a security or advancement or security mindset?
他们能告诉我们，如果我用安全的思路想，或者用进取的思路想，就能在这项任务上表现得更好，这说明人们其实对什么类型的动机最有效是有一定觉察的，不只是动机的强弱。
They can tell us that if I think this way, if I think about security or I think about advancement, I will do better on this task, which suggests that people have some insight into what not just the amount of motivation, but the right type of motivation to do well.
所以你提到的热身，可能就是人们在努力拼凑出一套合适的思维方式，来激活正确的动机类型——不是单纯增强动机强度，而是找到最适合当前任务的那种动机。
And so part of what you're talking about warming up might be that people are sort of trying to cobble together the right set of thoughts to get the right motivational type, not just the right amount, but the right type in order to do the task at hand.
动机的强度本身也可能带来额外的复杂性，因为我们知道，动机太低不好，但动机太高也不行。
There may also be an additional complexity with the amount because we know not enough motivation is not good, but we also know too much motivation is bad.
这就有点像耶克斯-多德森定律，呈现的是一个倒U型曲线。
And so you like, Yerkesi Dobbs Datsun rule, like the the u shaped functions.
理想状态是保持在中间那个位置。
You kinda wanna be in the middle for ideal.
你需要足够兴奋，才能把眼前的任务做好。
You wanna be amped up to be able to do the task at hand.
但如果你太紧张了，反而会发挥失常，因为这件事对你太重要了，结果反而想得太多，把自己搞垮了。
But if you have too much, right, you might choke because it means so much to you that you just you just overthink things.
对吧？
Right?
所以，调节不仅是为了最大化动机，更是为了找到适合当前任务的正确类型和适当强度。
So there might also be regulation not just to maximize motivation, but the right type and at the right level for the task at hand.
你可以想象一下，你的同事大卫·格拉金斯在一场儿童足球赛上激动得不得了。
So you can imagine your your colleague David Graggins going absolutely crazy at a daycare soccer, you know, like some children's soccer game.
那样可就过头了，对吧？
That would be bad, right?
所以得把动机调低一点，找到那个最佳平衡点。
So you need to scale back motivation, find that sweet spot.
我觉得，人们其实常常在不知不觉中做这种调节。
So I think there is a lot of this regulation that people kind of do intuitively.
有些人可能比其他人做得更到位。
Some people probably do it better than others.
我特别喜欢这个观点。
And I love this idea.
我以前从来没想过这就像热身，因为要让系统在认知、动机、生理各个层面都正常运转起来，可能得花上一会儿时间，把一切都安排妥当。
I've never thought about it as sort of warming up, because it might take a couple of moments to actually get all the ducks lined up in a row so that the system is operating functionally, both cognitively, motivationally, biologically, at all levels to maximize performance.
我很喜欢这个观点。
And I love this idea.
你还提到了切换的问题，这在认知心理学里其实有大量研究。
You also mentioned this idea of switching, and there is an extensive literature in cognitive psychology.
这叫任务切换，就是从一组任务快速转向另一组，来回切换。
It's called task switching, moving from one set of tasks to the other and rapidly switching back and forth.
这里面有个概念叫切换代价。
There's something known as the switch cost.
在切换的那一刻，往往会有一段延迟，表现也会下滑，因为大脑存在认知惯性。
There's a sort of delay and a decrease in performance at the very point of switching because there's kind of a cognitive inertia.
你还在沿用旧的模式，得花点时间才能适应新的任务。
You're still operating under the old set, and it takes some time to figure out how to switch into the new one.
如果放宽一点看，我觉得这和人们研究‘脱离’状态的成果也有关系。
Sort of zooming out a little bit, I think that's also related to research on disengaging.
对吧？
Right?
我一直朝着这个目标努力，现在我完全明白了。
So, you know, I've been pursuing this goal for so long, and I get it.
目标已经达成了。
Now it's done.
既然已经完成了，再继续下去就没意义了，该转向别的事情了。
It doesn't really make sense to keep going because you've already accomplished it, it's time to move on to something else.
有些研究指出，退出的过程其实非常困难。
There is some research suggests that disengagement process is very difficult.
而我们对退出的理解，远不如对坚持的理解那么深入。
And we actually don't understand it nearly as well as we understand persistence.
因为关于自我控制和毅力的研究很多，所以我们对坚持的了解远多于对退出的了解。
So because of research on self control and grit, we know a lot more about persistence than we know about disengagement.
这确实是一个非常值得深入研究的领域。
And it's an area of research that is really important for us to get into.
我们知道，当一个人再也无法追求某个目标时，适时放手反而会带来许多积极的结果。
We do know that disengagement is related to lots of positive outcomes when the person is unable to pursue a goal anymore.
比如，如果一个女性一直希望生孩子，但已经过了生育的生理年龄，那么放下这个愿望，对她的心理健康可能是有益的。
So for example, if you're a woman and you always wanted to have children but you're now past the biological age where you can have children, it's probably healthy to disengage from the desire to have children.
同样，当我们年龄增长不再适合某项运动，或者遭遇严重伤病再也无法继续，又或者机会之窗已经关闭时，研究显示，那些更擅长放手的人，心理状态更好，也能更快地投入到新的目标中。
Similarly, if we age out of a sport or we experience some kind of catastrophic injury where we just can't do it anymore or some window of opportunity has closed, right, Research suggests that for people who are more adept at disengagement, they experience better mental well-being outcomes, and they're able to re engage in a new set of goals much faster.
但除此之外，我们还需要更深入地理解放手背后的心理机制，弄清楚什么时候该坚持，什么时候该放下。
But beyond that, we have to really understand more about the psychology of disengagement and how we know when to persist and when to disengage.
这是一个非常重要的问题，但我们对它的了解还很有限，部分原因在于，我们的文化更强调坚持和毅力，而不是放手。
It's a really important question, but we don't know very much about it, partly because we tend to, in our culture, emphasize persistence and grit more than disengagement.
看起来，当我们想要激发动力或运用自我控制时，其实是在努力把心态、身体状态和观念整合在一起。
Seems like what we're trying to do when we want to get motivated or when we're engaging self control is we're trying to bring together state of mind and body and concept.
比如，我是一个即使不想锻炼也会去锻炼的人，前提是我不生病或没受伤，对吧？
So there's the thought piece, like I'm a person who works out even if he doesn't want to, provided I'm not sick or injured, right?
因为我觉得这些前提条件很重要。
Because I think it's important to have those caveats.
我不信什么一天都不能歇的说法。
I don't believe in the no days off thing.
我每周都会休息一天，训练也是有节奏地安排的，等等。
I take a day off every week, I cycle my training, etcetera, etcetera.
但我更相信心态和身体状态的重要性。
But I also believe in state of mind and body.
在顶尖人群中，有一件事其实很少被谈到——无论是在运动、学术还是音乐领域——那就是，一旦你体验过真正出色的训练，体验过心流状态，体验过神经可塑性带来的突破，当你拼尽全力学会了一样东西、掌握了它，就会忍不住想：只有在那种完美的状态里，我才算真正能做这件事。
And one of the things that's kind of, well, that just isn't discussed enough among high performers, and I think in athletics, in academics, in music, etcetera, is that once you taste a really great workout, once you taste flow state, once you taste neuroplasticity, like you grind it out and you learn something and you now have mastery of something, there's this temptation to need to be in that perfect state in order to feel like you can do it at all.
好像你往上走的时候，这种状态会越来越频繁地出现。
Like as you ascend the staircase that somehow like that's gonna happen more and more often.
很多人一辈子都在努力重现那种感觉。
And many people will assemble their entire lives trying to recreate those states.
我觉得像大卫·戈金斯这样的人，还有我们请过的科尔曼·鲁伊斯、海豹突击队一级队员DJ希夫利、乔科·威尔金克，他们身上有一件特别棒的事。
And I think one of the beautiful things again about people like David Goggins, we've also had Coleman Ruiz and other SEAL team tier one operator, DJ Shifley, Jocko Willink.
他们谈论吃苦时的方式特别真实——其实他们都是从最糟糕的状态里熬出来的，就像我朋友乔科说的：我们都是从‘真难熬’开始的。
I think what's beautiful about that community is the way that they describe doing hard things, but actually they were weaned in buds and in their other training from a place of suck, like as Jaco, who's a good friend of mine says, you know, we start where it sucks.
当你武器湿了、浑身发冷、满身沙子的时候，那才是真正的起跑线，让你彻底重新定义什么是最佳表现。
When your weapons are wet and you're cold and it's sandy, that's the starting line so that you completely recalibrate this notion of optimal performance.
我觉得在其他领域，尤其是学术圈，根本找不到类似的例子。
And I think that's something that we don't really have an analog for in the rest of the world, certainly not in academia.
就像睡个好觉，咖啡因刚好够用，处在那个U型曲线的合适位置，对吧？
It's like get great sleep, maybe caffeinate just enough, be on the right place of that U shaped curve, right?
或者说是倒U型曲线——别太兴奋，也别太没劲，诸如此类。
Or inverted U shaped curve, not too stimulated, not under stimulated and on and on.
这些当然都没错。
And I think, well, all of that's great.
这正是我不喜欢‘优化’这个说法的原因，因为优化终究只针对某一刻的状态。
It's one of the reasons I don't like the notion of optimization because ultimately optimization is about for that moment.
认为非得等到状态完美了才能开始真正做事，这种想法其实是关于动机最流行的一种误解。
And the idea that we're trying to attain a perfect state before we can do the real work, I think is one of the more popular concepts about motivation.
那我们能不能重新调整思维方式，从‘状态很差’的时候就开始行动？
So is it possible that we can rewire our thinking so that we start from a place of suck.
比如我是不是该像戈金斯那样，凌晨三点去锻炼？但我从不这么做，对吧？
Like maybe I should be doing my workouts at 3AM, la Goggins, but I don't do that, right?
我喜欢睡足了，喝点咖啡提提神。
I like being rested, caffeinated.
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you see what I'm getting at?
明白。
Yes.
真正培养心理韧性，关键在于面对重重阻力时还能坚持下去，而这往往需要在糟糕的条件下才能练出来。
Because in terms of building real mental toughness, the ability to push into something when everything is like pushing back on oneself, that seems to require crap conditions.
我觉得你说得很有意思，因为研究确实表明，人们特别擅长为自己不自律找借口。
I think what you're saying is really interesting because I do think we know from research that people are incredibly creative at coming up for justifications to not engage in self control.
比如说，我今天本来该去锻炼的。
So, you know, I'm supposed to work out today.
可我的运动服没搭配好。
My gym clothes don't match.
或者吧，我本该今天去锻炼，可太阳太毒了。
Or, you know, I'm supposed to work out today, but it's too sunny.
我本该今天去锻炼，可太阳又不够晒。
I'm supposed to work out today, but it's not sunny enough.
雨下得太多了。
It's raining too much.
雨又下得太少了。
It's raining too little.
人们真是特别擅长找理由，为自己的放纵开脱。
Like people are remarkably creative at coming up with reasons to justify their indulging in their temptations.
对。
Mhmm.
你刚才说的这点特别有意思，就是我们总觉得，呃——我不确定有没有人研究过，但好像确实存在一种偏见，觉得非得万事俱备，我才能开始做。
So what's really interesting about what you're suggesting here is that you can just like and, again, I don't know that anyone's actually studied this, but this is there might be sort of this bias, or at least we we capitalize on a bias that things have to be just right for me to do it.
就像我写东西的时候，就常有这种感觉。
Like, has like, I I think of this when I'm writing.
但我觉得很多人都有这种想法，比如今天不想写东西。
But I, you know, I think a lot of us have this idea that, like, I don't feel like writing today.
总觉得条件不够好，那就干脆不做了。
Like, the conditions just aren't right, so I won't.
干脆等灵感来了、一切都刚好合适了再说。
I'll just put it off till, like, the muses hit me and it's just right.
对吧？
Right?
但随着时间推移，你会明白，每天都不可能完美，你得学会接受这一点。
And, you know, you learn over time that, like, your every day is gonna be that not so perfect day, and so you just have to learn to deal with it.
一旦你开始做了，就像你之前说的，慢慢就会进入状态，反而变得特别顺手，但得先熬过开头那段时间。
And then once you get into it, as you were talking about earlier, you might warm up to a point where now it's actually optimal, but it takes some time to get there.
我觉得你提到的这种追求极致的文化，有意思的地方在于，我们之所以接受它，一方面是因为优化听起来很吸引人，另一方面，它也成了我们逃避真正困难事情的完美借口——反正条件还没到位。
I think one of things that's really interesting about what you're suggesting about the sort of optimization culture may be that we are embracing this partly because optimization is an exciting idea, but also it's it's a great justification for not ever doing the really hard things because the conditions aren't quite right.
人们真的特别擅长找理由，来证明自己不该去碰那些难的事。
And, I I think people are incredibly creative at coming up with reasons why they shouldn't do the the hard things.
在做决定的那一刻，这么做看起来完全合理。
In the moment of choice, it seems perfectly reasonable.
这正是自我控制让人沮丧又困难的地方，你之前提到过理念和行动要一致。
And that's one of the things that's really frustrating and challenging about self control because you mentioned the sort of idea of aligning concept with body.
当自我控制的冲突离我们还很远的时候。
When self control conflicts are far away from us.
比如我想着明年要多运动，但不是今天，是明年，那时候觉得这确实该做。
So when I'm thinking about, you know, exercising more next year, but not today, next year, it's really easy to to be able to say like, that's that's the right thing to do.
这正是我真正想做的事。
That's the thing that I really want.
可一旦明年变成了今天，我的想法就完全不一样了。
But when next year becomes today, right, all of a sudden my my mindset's in a different place.
这时候再做选择，就变得特别难。
And that choice is really hard again.
变得特别特别难。
It becomes really, really hard.
我曾经那种清晰的感觉，现在已经没了。
The clarity that I once had is gone.
自我控制的另一个让人沮丧的地方，就是它让你很难坚持自己的打算。
What's also frustrating with self control is so that makes it hard to follow through with your intentions.
但更让人沮丧的是，当那一刻过去，你回头再看的时候，对吧？
But what's also really frustrating about self control is as that moment passes and you're looking back at it sometime in the future, right?
现在数据已经过去了，你回过头来看，距离又拉开了，清晰感也重新回来了。
So now that the data start has come and gone and now you're looking back on it, you have distance again, and the clarity comes back.
然后你就想，我当初怎么就没按该做的那样去做呢？
And you're like, why didn't I do what I was supposed to do?
所以，自我控制的另一个让人头疼的地方，就是它跟距离密切相关。
So, again, one of the frustrating things about about self control is that it's distance dependent.
事情离得远的时候，该怎么做一清二楚；可一旦近在眼前，反而不知道该怎么做了。
The right thing to do is really clear when it's far away, but when it's close, it's hard to figure out what I should be doing.
我做的研究显示，这在一定程度上是因为我们的思维会随着距离变化而改变对事件的看法。
And research that I've done suggests that this exists in part because our our minds shift in how we think about the event.
当事情发生在遥远的未来时，它会显得更抽象。
When the event is in the distant future, it's more abstract.
要么是遥远的未来，要么是发生在别人身上，要么只是假设的情况。
It's or distant future or it's happening to somebody else or it's hypothetical.
当事情离我太远，不紧迫的时候，我更容易考虑它值不值得做，为什么要做。
When it's far away from me, it's not imminent, I'm more likely to think about it in terms of desirability, why I'm doing it, right?
那时候的想法会更加抽象。
It's going to be much more abstract.
但当未来变成现在，我的想法就变了，开始更关注怎么做。
But as when that future becomes now, my mindset changes, and I'm thinking now much more about feasibility.
我该怎么实现它？
How am I going to do it?
更具体地思考自己到底需要做些什么。
And much more much more concretely about what I have to do.
问题在于，很多难办的事，理由都很正面，但实际操作起来却很糟糕。
And the problem is is a lot of these things that are hard, the whys are really positive, but the hows are really negative.
对吧？
Right?
就是因为难啊。
That's because they're hard.
所以恰恰就在我要做这件难事的时候，我反而最在想它为什么这么难。
And so just at the point where I have to do the hard thing is when I'm thinking about why it's so hard the most.
这也就是为什么我说我想做它。
And then that's why I say I wanna do it.
然后时间一过，距离一拉远，事情变远了，我回头一看，就觉得那真是我特别特别想做的事，因为现在我又在想‘为什么’，而不是‘怎么做’了。
And then, again, time passes, distance passes, it gets farther away from me, I'm looking back and be like, but that was something I really, really wanna do because now I'm thinking about it in terms of why again instead of how.
为了应对这个问题，我们在实验室里做了些实验，让参与者思考自己的目标，以及他们为什么追求这些目标，或者打算怎么去实现。
So in order to try to overcome that, in in my lab, we've conducted experiments in which we have people think about we we bring them in and we have them think about their goals and why they're pursuing their goals or how they're going to pursue those goals.
然后我们给他们一个跟这些目标无关的自控冲突情境。
We then give them a self control conflict that's unrelated to those goals.
他们只是在一般性地思考‘为什么’，或者一般性地思考‘怎么做’。
So they're just thinking generally about why or generally about how.
所以，这正是我们面对遥远事物时通常的心态，也是面对近在眼前的事物时常见的思维模式。
So this is, again, the frame of mind that we generally have when things are far away or the generally have frame of mind when they're close.
你用了‘热身’这个词。
You use the word warm up.
我们实际上已经帮他们热身了，然后给他们一个自我控制的任务，结果发现，当他们思考‘为什么’时，自我控制能力明显更强。
So we've essentially warmed them up, and then we give them a self control task, and they have much better self control when they've thought about why's than how's.
我们进一步认为，这是因为我们模拟了事物在远处和近处时的不同心理状态。
And, again, we argue that this is because we're simulating the mindset of when the thing was distant and when it was close.
但这就是难事的麻烦之处。
But that's the problem with hard things.
当它们还在遥远的未来时，看起来简直是绝佳的主意。
When they're in the distant future, it seems like a really good idea.
那时我们能清楚地想到为什么要这么做。
But and we can think about why we wanna do it.
但真到了必须动手的时候，我们就不再想‘为什么’了。
When it's when we actually have to do it, we don't think about why anymore.
我们只想着怎么做，可这过程真的让人提不起劲。
We think about how, and the how just sucks.
随着时间推移，我们回头一看，完全想不通自己当初为什么没行动——明明那时候很清楚，这正是自己最想做的事。
And then again, as time passes on, we look back, we're completely perplexed as to why we didn't do the thing when it was so clear to us that that was the thing that we really wanted to do.
我还想补充一点，你也可以不同意：真正有价值的回报，其实是克服挑战之后才得到的那些。
I would also add, and feel free to disagree, that the rewards that come after challenges to meet those rewards are the real rewards.
这几年我一直都在说，像多巴胺这类不费力气就能获得的化学奖励，虽然有些例子还算健康无害，但大多数其实很有害；可没有任何一种奖励，能比得上经过漫长艰苦努力后换来的成果。
You know, I've been going on and on and online for a few years now that, you know, dopamine and other forms of chemical reinforcement that come without effort, While there are examples of those that can be healthy or innocuous, most of them are pretty detrimental, but there's nothing quite like rewards that follow intense prolonged effort.
你提到这点特别有意思，因为我觉得，说到自控力，我们总把它当成非黑即白的事。
It's really interesting that you mentioned this because I think when we think about self control, we tend to think about it as a binary.
还是拿蛋糕举个例子吧。
You know, so again, if we're going to use, you know, cake as an example.
比如我打算减肥，面前放着一块蛋糕，通常就只有两种选择。
So if I'm trying to lose weight, and there's a piece of cake in front of me, usually it's a binary.
我有个目标，就是要减重。
I have this goal to lose weight.
我也想吃这块美味的蛋糕。
I also have this goal to eat the yummy cake.
对吧？
Right?
这两个目标互相冲突，我只能选一个。
And those two goals are in conflict, and I have to choose one of them.
这就让决定变得挺难的，因为是两个一比一的选项。
And that makes the decision actually kind of hard because it's one against one.
我觉得你提到的做难事这一点特别有意思，因为这些动机跟减肥本身没关系。
One of the things I think really interesting about what you're saying about doing hard things is that those are additional motivations that have nothing to do with losing weight.
对吧？
Right?
这些额外的动机能推动你坚持长期目标。
Those are additional motivations that fuel the long term goal.
我之前说过，搞清楚自己的‘为什么’特别重要。
So I was mentioning before, it's really important to think about your your whys.
我这里用的是复数形式。
I'm using that in plural.
不只是为了减肥这个原因，我还想更健康。
It's not just the one why I want to lose weight, but it's I want to I want to be healthier.
我想给孩子们做个好榜样。
I want to be a good example for my kids.
我想证明自己能做到。
I wanna show that I can do this.
我想成为更好的自己。
I wanna become the better me.
你懂的，这些不同的动力。
You know, what all these different motivations.
没有理由说，解决自我控制的冲突就必须公平对决。
When it there's there's no reason why resolving a self control dilemma should be a fair fight.
为什么你要给诱惑一个公平的单挑机会呢？
Like, why should you give the temptation a a fair one on one challenge?
相反，我觉得你其实是在强调成长、自我探索、自信和自尊这些方面——如果我们能善用它们，就能更有力地抵抗诱惑，因为我们会找到更多动力去克服那些原本不想做的事。
Instead, I think you're you're kind of highlighting that growth, self discovery, confidence, self esteem, you know, all of these other things can also if we can leverage them, we can become much more powerful against the temptation because we just find additional sources of motivation to push through the things that we really don't want to do.
讽刺的是，这其实是个良性循环——你做得越多，感受到的正面情绪也就越多。
And ironically, it's a self it's an upward cycle because the more you do it, right, the more positivity you experience.
所以这就像一个正向循环。
And so it's sort of a virtuous cycle.
但你也可以想象相反的情况。
Whereas you can also imagine the opposite.
如果你放弃了，就会想：‘我做不到’，那些原本的动力也开始瓦解。
If you give up, right, then you say, I'm not capable, and all those motivations start to collapse.
我成不了那样的人。
I'm not gonna become that person.
我不会成长了。
I'm not gonna grow.
我就是那个我曾经担心会变成的人。你能听到这种消极的自我对话，也能看到它一步步滑向负面的深渊。
I I am the person I was worried I was and all these, you can just sort of hear this negative self talk, and you can see it becoming a negative downward spiral.
你这么说真的让我觉得特别有意思。
So I really find what you're saying really interesting.
不只是这个现象本身，更重要的是你特意去关注它，意识到自己做这件难事，不光是为了达成某个目标，更是为了享受那种多巴胺带来的快感。
Like, not just the phenomenon, but to really focus on it and say, like, I'm doing the hard thing not just for the one goal, but because I want that dopamine rush.
我想让自己的系统学会应对这种挑战，也想证明给自己看，我真的能做到。
I want my system to learn how to take this on, and I want to prove to myself that I can do it.
就像我说的，这本来就该是一场不公平的较量。
As I said, it shouldn't be a fair fight.
我们得想办法让自己占尽优势。
We should stack the deck in our favor.
没错，如果诱惑来自本能，那我们就用更强烈的本能反应去对抗，同时结合长远的思考，慢慢培养这种意识。比如，现在做这个选择有什么好处？
Yeah, if the temptation is limbic, come in with more limbic, as well as high level concepts, them out over time is what Like, I'm what's the benefit now?
现在做错决定会有什么代价？
What's the drawback now of making the wrong decision?
然后把这种思考延伸到明天、后天，甚至更远。
And then extend that out to like tomorrow, the next day.
花点时间做这些事，意义可能远超你的想象。
Spending a little bit of time on these things can mean a lot.
说到底，我们讲的很多时间，其实就相当于短短一分钟。
And in the end, what we're saying is a lot of time is really like a minute.
没错。
Yes.
对吧？
Right?
不是说你非得坐下来写什么日记练习不可。
Like, it's not like you just have to sit down and do a journaling exercise.
不过从你的研究来看，这种做法确实有帮助。
Although I think from your work, it's clear that that can be beneficial.
我也觉得，随着时间推移，这件事会越来越轻松。
I do also think that like, it should get easier over time.
因为你说了，我们心里头其实有那种吸引人的惯性状态。
Because as you said, we have these attractor states in our mind.
第一次试着把这些想法整理起来的时候，简直像在赶羊。
And, you know, the first time we try to pull these thoughts together, it's herding sheep.
对吧？
Right?
你要把所有的想法、动机、还有那些生物系统、动力系统、认知系统全都协调一致。
So you're trying to get all these ideas and these motivations and these thoughts and these biological systems, motivational systems, cognitive systems all lined up.
第一次做这些，肯定得花不少力气。
The first time you do that, that might take more work.
但你做得越多，对吧？
But the more you do it, right?
我们知道，大脑喜欢重复，喜欢待在熟悉的地方。
We know the mind likes to practice and be in the same places.
我觉得，随着时间推移，这件事会越来越快。
I think more over time, it should become faster and faster.
所以你之前提到的‘热身’这个说法，我特别认同——你做得越多，热身就会变得越来越轻松。
So this idea of warming up, which I really like that you mentioned before, the warm up might get easier and easier and easier the more I do it.
这个热身的概念，是我多年前在记录清醒动物或人类大脑神经活动时想到的。
Well, the concept of warming up came to me years ago when we would record neural activity in the brain of either awake animals or in some cases, had the benefit of seeing this in humans.
我有个朋友是神经外科医生。
I have a friend who's a neurosurgeon.
如果你观察动物或人在执行任务，可以用功能成像——这种更无创的方法，也可以用电极或钙成像，监测大量神经元的活动。
And if you look at an animal or a person doing a task and you could use functional imaging, so it's more non invasive, or you could use electrodes, you could use calcium imaging and monitoring the activity of lots and lots of neurons.
你不会看到，人或动物一做这个感知任务，相关的神经回路就突然全亮了。
You don't see that like the person or the animal like does this perception exercise and all of a sudden like the circuit that's involved like lights up.
你看到的其实是很多噪音，我们叫它‘杂波’，不是人抽烟的那种，而是像音频监测器里那种沙沙声。
What you see is there's a lot of noise, what we call a lot of hash, not the kind of people smoke, but it's like, it sounds like down the audio monitor.
当他们反复做这个任务时，信号会变得越来越清晰，而你根本没调整过设备。
As they repeat the task over and over, the signal becomes very, very clear and you haven't made any adjustments to the equipment.
有时候你确实调过，但信号噪声比突然变好，是因为大脑进入了那些稳定的吸引状态，信号强度大幅提升。
Sometimes you have, and you start getting great signal to noise because the surrogate just is these attractor states and that the signal of noise goes way, way up.
我看着这些现象就想，这些其实都是很简单的行为或感知任务，比如让人判断点是向上动还是平均向下动。
And I was watching this and going, well, these are like simple behavioral tasks or perceptual tasks of like telling, you know, a person trying to say, oh, you know, the dots are moving up or the dots are moving, you know, on average down.
你就看到大脑经历了一个过渡状态。
And you just see like the brain goes through this like transition state.
当人开始犯困时，信号又会变得杂乱一些，然后再次变得清晰。
And then as people get sleepy, it gets a little noisier and then it comes back again.
我当时就想，这其实很好地解释了我平时学习或做事时的很多体会。
I was like, well, this kind of like explains a lot of my experience trying to study or to do things.
对。
Yeah.
我想分享一个让我特别兴奋的发现。
One piece of knowledge that I'm really excited about that I'll just pass along.
匹兹堡大学有个叫彼得·斯特里克的人，他特别爱运动。
There's a guy down at University of Pittsburgh, Peter Strick, who's an exerciser.
他不仅喜欢锻炼，还研究神经回路。
He happens to like doing exercise, but he also maps neural circuits.
他发现，控制大块肌肉运动的大脑区域一旦活跃，就会触发肾上腺素的释放，而肾上腺素又会反过来作用于这些回路。
And he discovered that the brain areas that control movement of the large musculature, when those become active, they actually activate the release of adrenaline when we move and the adrenaline then feeds back on those circuits.
所以这是给那些不想锻炼的人的一个提醒。
So this is reminder to anyone that doesn't feel like working out.
热身的作用是提升这些化学物质，从而让控制运动的神经回路信号更清晰、噪音更少。
The warmup serves to increase these chemicals that then bring more signal to noise in the neural circuits that control movement.
所以你就能理解，为什么热身五分钟后，你会感觉更有动力了。
So it makes sense why like after five minutes of warming up, you're like, you're more motivated.
这不完全是心理作用。
It's not purely psychological.
总之，我就随便提一下。
Anyway, I just kind of throw that out there.
我对竞争的作用挺好奇的。
I'm curious about the role of competitiveness.
我做博士后的时候，正好赶上一个工具大量涌现的科学领域。
When I was a postdoc, I was confronted with being in an area of science where a lot of tools were coming in.
那地方竞争特别激烈，基本上是先到先得。
It was super competitive and it was kind of a first come first serve.
当时确实有些创造性的工作，但大家都清楚那些工具是什么，个个都像饿极了的河马一样争着抢。
There was some creative work involved, but like we all knew what the tools were and we were all like going hungry hippos for these.
我当时要跟好几个大实验室竞争。
And I was in competition with really big labs.
这种竞争给了我一种前所未有的动力。
And that competition fueled me in a way that I wasn't familiar with.
我平时并不算个特别好胜的人。
I don't consider myself an innately competitive person about most things.
我可不会非得在乒乓球上赢过别人，对吧？
I won't like be the guy who has to win at ping pong, right?
有些事我会较真，但不是所有事都这样。
Certain things I'm competitive about, but not others.
但我发现，有个对手居然特别能激发我。
But what I noticed was having an enemy was incredibly motivating.
最后，他们拿到了一些成果，我们也拿到了一些，到头来反而成了差不多的朋友。
And in the end, they got some and we got some and we ended up being more or less friends at the end.
这让我们发挥出了最好的一面。
And it brought out our best.
我愿意相信，它确实让我们发挥出了最好的一面。
I like to think that it brought out our best.
人们在竞争性上是呈正态分布的，还是非黑即白的二元分布？
Do people tend to kind of distribute along a normal distribution or is it a binary distribution in terms of competitiveness?
那些有竞争心的人，比如迈克尔·乔丹，据说他连什么都想争个高低，这种情况到底有多普遍？
And to what extent are people that are competitive, like we have the example of Michael Jordan, who apparently was like, he was competitive about everything apparently.
我们常说的那些有动力的人，到底有多大的成分是源于竞争心？
To what extent are those people, the people we call motivated?
他们只是特别特别好胜吗？
Are they just really, really competitive?
生活中很多事其实并不竞争，但也有不少是竞争性的，对吧？
Because a lot of endeavors in life are not competitive, but a lot of them are, right?
比如打分数曲线，班里只有那么一两个学生能拿A+，你上过哈佛，我在斯坦福，那环境竞争得厉害着呢。
Setting the curve, being the one student or two students who can get A plus in the class, you and I, you went to Harvard, I'm at Stanford, and it's a very competitive environment.
可以说是竞争最激烈的学术环境了。
Sort of the apex of competitive academic environments.
那么，竞争感是如何影响一个人的意志力、毅力和自控力的呢？
So how does competitiveness play into willpower and tenacity and self control over time?
是这些人天生更擅长这些吗？
Are those people just better at it?
但如果你把对手拿掉了，竞争对象没了，会发生什么？
But what happens when you remove the enemy, you remove the competitor?
我觉得你讲的特别有意思。
I think what you're saying is really interesting.
我也听过很多这样的故事，一直觉得特别有意思。
And I too have heard a lot of these stories and I've always thought they were very interesting.
我自己还没见过直接研究竞争和自控力之间关系的成果。
I personally don't know of any direct work looking at competitiveness and self control.
在我熟悉的领域里，最接近的其实是成就动机方面的研究，当然，可能还有其他领域在研究竞争，只是我平时不太接触。
The closest work that I can think of in my sphere, and there might be other research on competitiveness outside of the work that I typically read, mostly has to do with achievement motivation.
对吧？
Right?
所以成就动机和这种竞争性其实很相似。
So achievement motivation is a lot like competitiveness in this.
我觉得竞争性往往是从成就动机里产生的。
I think competitiveness actually often comes out of achievement, achievement motivation.
成就动机就像是对某件事做得特别特别出色的一种认可。
Achievement motivation is sort of like a recognition for doing really, really well on something.
而且这种出色通常是相对于别人而言的。
And it's usually really, really well relative to other people.
对吧？
Right?
所以成就动机，就是你特别想成为那个站在最顶端的人。
So, like, achievement motivation, you really wanna be the person all the way at the top.
如果你是第一名，那就是成就动机得到最大满足了。
Like, that's maximal achievement motivation satisfaction if you're number one.
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