情绪神经科学与改善情绪调节的工具 | 拉尔夫·阿多夫斯博士

你没有动力去走正确的人生道路，因为你对不同的选择没有感觉。

You're not motivated to take the right path through life because you don't feel one way or the other about the different options that are available.

所以很明显，没有情绪是非常糟糕的。

So it's clear that not having emotions is very bad.

当然，如果你真的遇到熊，虽然现在很少有人会遇到，那也会很糟糕。

And certainly if you were out facing the bear, which may not happen to too many people these days, that would be very bad.

另一方面，能够调节和控制情绪绝对是一项非常重要的人类技能，对你帮助很大。

On the other hand, being able to regulate them and control them is definitely a human skill that's very important and that helps you a lot.

第一部分就是你之前提到的，监控情绪、识别情绪的能力。

The first part is what you were talking about earlier, which is the ability to monitor your emotions, to identify your emotions.

我觉得丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特是第一个在这方面做主要研究的人。

I think Lisa Feldman Barrett actually first did the main work on this.

这个主题叫做情绪粒度。

It's a topic called emotional granularity.

就是说，你能多细致地理解和觉察自己的情绪。

Like at what, how fine a grain can you conceptualize and be aware of your own emotions.

然后一旦你意识到它们，你

And then once you're aware of them, you

就可以运用各种情绪调节策略，主要是认知重评类的策略，来应对这种情绪，从而在一定程度上控制你的情绪。

can bring various emotion regulation strategies, mostly cognitive reappraisal type of strategies, to bear on the emotion and thereby to some extent control your emotions.

使用语言来提供这种细腻度有多重要？

How important is it to use language to provide that granularity?

我当然经历过在某个特定情境下感受到很多情绪的情况。

I've certainly experienced like feeling a bunch of things around a particular scenario.

如果你不能把各个成分分开，就会感到不知所措。

And if you can't separate out the elements, it can feel overwhelming.

人们总是说，如果你能说出情绪的名字，但我觉得这有点难，因为有时候不是一种情绪，而是很多种。

People always say, if you can name the emotion, but I find that a little tricky because sometimes it's not one emotion, it's a bunch of things.

有困惑，有沮丧。

It's confusion, it's frustration.

这些是同一回事吗？

Are those the same thing?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我觉得很多人，包括我自己，有时候就是觉得情绪太多了，不是因为情绪本身有多大，而是因为情绪像一团乱麻，没有语言去拆解它。

And I think many people, myself included, sometimes just like, it just feels like too much, not because the emotion is so big, but because it's such a tangled jungle of where there isn't really language to disassemble it.

对，我觉得你不需要把它用语言表达出来。

Yeah, I don't think you need to put it into language.

而且我觉得每个人的策略都不一样。

And I think people's strategies vary.

有些人用语言思考，有些人用图像思考，大多数人都是混合的。

Some people think in words, some people think in pictures, most people are a mixture.

如果你看看不同的语言，比如像我是法语或德语双语者，我们对不同的情绪有不同的词汇。

And if you look at different languages, if you're French or German speaking like me, bilingual, we have different words for different emotions.

但你需要对概念有一定的理解，我觉得情绪的概念在不同语言中几乎是通用的。

But you need some sense of the concept, which I think the concepts for emotions are pretty much universal across languages.

所以，你知道，有很多来自不同语言的情绪词汇的例子，比如“幸灾乐祸”这个词现在很多人都知道了。

So you know, there are all these different examples of emotion words from different languages, like Schadenfreude is one that people know now.

这是从德语来的，指以他人的不幸为乐。

Joy at another person's misfortune from the German.

Gigel这个词，我常听到人们把它当作另一个例子。

Gigel, I think, is often trumpeted as another example.

我忘了是哪个文化里的，但这个词描述的是看到特别可爱的东西时那种控制不住的感觉。

I forget what the culture is, but this is the emotion you feel if something is just unbearably cute.

有一本很棒的书。

There's a great book.

蒂芙尼·瓦特·史密斯写了本书。

Tiffany Watt Smith has a book.

书名好像是《人类情绪之书》，就像一个小字典，按字母顺序列出了不同语言里各种情绪词汇。

I think it's called The Book of Human Emotions, which is basically like a little dictionary, an entry from A to Z, of all the different emotion words in different languages.

但在英文里，我们虽然没有gigel或schadenfreude这样的词，你完全可以理解那种感受。

But the fact that we don't have a word for gigel or for schadenfreude in English, you perfectly will have the concept.

我刚才不是给你描述了吗。

I just described it to you.

你完全能理解这种情绪是什么。

You have no problem understanding what the emotion is.

所以我觉得，只要你有某种概念，不需要用语言表达出来，只要能思考和区分自己内心的不同情绪，你就能在一定程度上评估它们，说这是我想要的情绪，或者这是我不想要的情绪。

And so I think as long as you have some concept which need not be put into words, some way to think about and differentiate the different emotions that are going on in you, that gives you a purchase on your ability to, to some extent, evaluate them and say, this is an emotion I want, or this is an emotion that I don't want.

然后通过不同的策略来应对，比如认知重评，或者接纳，取决于你的策略是什么。

And then to act on it through various strategies, cognitive free appraisal, for example, or acceptance, depending on what your strategy is.

对，心理学家们似乎意见不一，因为很多人，包括一些上过这个播客的专家，都会说，如果你不允许自己感受情绪，它就会增长，而另一些人会说，如果你关注某件事，它就会增长。

Yeah, the psychologists seem to disagree here because many people, some who've been on this podcast, all of whom are experts will say, you know, if you don't allow yourself to feel the emotion, then it grows, and other people will say, well, if you focus on something, then it grows.

我觉得神经科学在这方面能帮上大忙，因为可能两者都是对的，取决于具体情况，但是——对，完全正确。

This is where I think neuroscience can be of great help because probably both things are true, and it depends on the context, but- Yeah, that's exactly right.

也许这是个好机会来谈谈动态吸引子状态，我提这个术语不是为了吓唬人，但神经科学里确实有这个想法，对吧？

Maybe this is a good opportunity to talk about sort of a dynamic attractor states, which is, and I don't throw out that language to confuse people with, but there is this idea in neuroscience, right?

比如，如果我们俩谈论这个杯子，我把它往前推，然后我们开始盯着它看，越来越多的脑回路会投入进来，我们可以花几个小时，这不是个有趣的对话，但如果我们这样谈论一种情绪，比如因为工作或网上有人对我们说了什么而产生的情绪，我想我们都熟悉那种在脑子里钻牛角尖的感觉。

Like if we, if you and I both, talk about this cup and I slide it forward, and then we start looking at it, more and more brain circuits are going be devoted to, we could spend several hours, it's not a very interesting conversation, but if we do that about an emotion we feel because of something somebody said to us at work or online, I think we're all familiar with the idea that we can go down these rabbit holes within our own mind.

绝对，是的。

Absolutely, yes.

这是一种非常危险的生活方式。

And it's a very dangerous way to live.

确实如此。

It is.

仅仅知道它的存在也许就能有所帮助。

Just knowing that it exists perhaps can be helpful.

是的。

Yeah.

因为就像如果你沿着一条路走得足够远，就像恐怖电影一样。

Because it's almost like if you go far enough down a path, it's like a horror movie.

如果你沿着一条路走得足够远，就很难抽身出来。

If you go far enough down a path, it's very hard to extract yourself.

不，绝对是这样。

No, absolutely.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

我觉得，认知重评或者其他任何复杂的情绪重评策略，都是一把双刃剑，而且它是可以训练的。

I think, I mean, cognitive reappraisal or any other sort of complex reappraisal strategy for emotions, it is a double edged sword and it's trainable.

就像你说的，如果我特别关注，好吧，我现在开始感到悲伤了。

It's as you say, if I really focus on, okay, now I'm starting to feel sad.

我真的不想感到悲伤。

I really don't want to feel sad.

我真的不想感到悲伤。

I really don't want to feel sad.

我真的不想感到悲伤。

I really don't want to feel sad.

嗯，我越想越难过，对吧？

Well, the more I think about it, the sadder I get, right?

焦虑也是一样。

Or same with anxiety.

有些情绪可能比其他情绪更容易陷入这种恶性循环。

Some emotions are probably more prone to going down this rabbit hole than others.

但再说一次，这是一种可以训练的技能，还有其他处理方式，可以让你从一开始就阻止那个过程往下走。

But again, it's a trainable skill that there are other ways of dealing with it where you can kind of just stop that process from going down at all.

你想在最前端就把它拦住。

You want to stop it at the earliest front end.

我的意思是，关于什么才是成功策略，一个快速的回答是：你越早能阻止那个过程，效果就越好。

I mean, one quick answer to the question of what's successful strategy is the earlier you can stop that process, the better.

所以首先，不要让自己陷入那种会感到焦虑、内疚、悲伤或任何你想避免的情绪的境地。

And so in the first place, don't get yourself into a situation where you're going to be anxious or guilty or sad or whatever emotion you want to avoid.

所以情境回避，就是通过安排你的环境来避免触发，这是一种策略。

So situational avoidance, just in terms of structuring your environment, would be one strategy.

而一旦你身处其中，我觉得这在很大程度上是因人而异的。

And then once you're in it, I think it's idiosyncratic to a large extent.

所以你得自己摸索出什么方法对你有用。

So you would have to figure out what works for you.

但绝对是可以训练的。

But it's definitely trainable.

有两部分是可以训练的。

Two parts are trainable.

一个是具体的策略，这样你就能进行认知重评，而不会过度思考、陷入死胡同，甚至更强烈地感受到那种情绪。

One is the specific strategy so you can do cognitive reappraisal without overthinking it and going down the rabbit hole and actually feeling the emotion even more.

另一个就是你拥有的控制力的强度和自动化程度，这就让我想到了冰浴。

And the other one is just the strength and automaticity of control that you have, which brings me to the ice bath.

我简单说说冰浴好吗？因为这其实挺相关的。

Shall I briefly talk about the ice Because this is relevant actually.

所以我之前就开始做这些了。

So I started doing these a while back.

我的一位前同事，贾斯汀·费恩斯坦，他现在在毛伊岛经营一家漂浮诊所。

One of my former colleagues, Justin Feinstein, who now runs a float clinic on Maui.

我忘了是怎么开始的，但我们当时在聊漂浮和冰浴。

I forget how it came about, but we were talking about floating ice baths.

他提到了你，还提到了维姆·霍夫。

And he mentioned you and he mentioned Wim Hof.

他说，你知道吗，看看这些人。

And he said, know, take a look at these guys.

然后我看到，你知道，Wim在某个结冰的湖里游泳。

And I saw, you know, Wim swimming in some frozen lake.

看起来挺有意思的。

It looked kind of interesting.

总之，我前段时间开始洗冰浴。

Anyway, so I started doing ice baths some time ago.

那时候这还不怎么流行。

They weren't that popular yet back then.

现在我妻子在亚马逊上买了一个像马饮水槽之类的大东西。

And now my wife bought on Amazon, like a horse watering trough or some big thing.

做了保温。

Insulated it.

他们还在湖上，这故事挺多的。

Pretty on the It's a lot of story for them being out on a lake too.

放在门廊上挺好看的。

Pretty on the porch.

我们待会儿再聊这个。

We'll talk about that.

然后我每周要买四十磅的冰块。

And I get, you know, these 40 pound ice bags a week.

乔的冰店那边的人都特别熟悉我了。

They know me very well at Joe's Ice up there.

每次我去，他们就说，嘿，老板，今晚又要开派对啦。

Every time I go in, they say, Hey, boss, having a good party again tonight.

没错。

Yep.

我需要很多冰。

I need a lot of ice.

但是，有意思的是这个。

But, so this is the interesting thing.

第一周开始的时候，真的特别难受，超级痛苦。

When I start first week, it is terrible, super painful.

你进去的时候，就像全身被冷压了一样，对吧？

You you go in, it's like a whole body cold presser task, right?

第二周的时候，也是这样，呼吸会加快，心跳也会加快。

Second week, it's also, you know, your breathing goes up, your heart rate goes up.

但慢慢地，有点自动化的感觉了，现在我一进冰浴，直接就进去了。

But gradually, and kind of with some automaticity to it, now I go into the ice bath immediately.

心率会降下来。

My heart rate goes down.

呼吸也会平稳下来。

My breathing goes down.

整个人特别放松。

I get super relaxed.

所以这就是有意思的地方，跟情绪调节有关。

So this is the interesting part, apropos of emotion regulation.

对我个人来说，这种效果是通用的。

It generalizes for me.

这只是我一个人的实验案例。

This is an experiment of one.

但对我来说，确实有效。

But for me, it generalizes.

所以以前，在泡冰水之前，我在帕萨迪纳开车兜风的那一两年里，我的压力水平好像不知不觉地上升了。

So previously, prior to the ice bath, driving around Pasadena, and I don't know, the last year or two, this seems to have risen somehow.

我正试着在路边停车。

I'm trying to park on the street.

旁边有一条车道。

There's a lane next to me.

我已经打转向灯了。

I have my signal out.

那儿有个停车位。

There's a parking space.

我想做什么很明显。

It's clear what I'm trying to do.

我看到有人从我后面过来。

I see somebody come up behind me.

他们能看到。

They can see.

我在试着停车。

I'm trying to park.

他们可以绕过去。

They can move over.

不。

No.

他们直接开到我后面，按喇叭。

They come right up behind me, go on the horn.

你知道，你立刻就会感到一阵愤怒，对吧？

And you know, you immediately feel just an immediate anger response, right?

冰浴之后，情绪就平复了。

Well, after the ice bath, it's flat.

所以，当有人对我按喇叭时，我的自主神经对心理压力的反应会立即自动下降，这是通过冰浴训练并泛化出来的效果。

So there was an immediate automatic down regulation of my autonomic emotional response to a psychological stressor, to somebody honking at me, that was trained and generalized from the ice bath.

这只是一个单案例实验。

It's an experiment of one.

我不是说这是发表过的研究，但我认为，在情绪调节的强度和自动化程度上，确实有直接的自主神经训练成分，情绪可以变得自动化地调节。

I'm not claiming this as a published study, but so I think there's a direct autonomic training component as well in terms of the strength and the automaticity, the ease with which you can regulate emotions, that they can become kind of automatically regulated.

你不必过度思考。

You don't have to overthink it.

在一定程度上，它会变得平滑且不费力。

It becomes smooth and effortless to some extent.

而那就是你想要达到的状态。

And that's the place where you wanna get.

我和维姆认识很久了。

I've known Wim a long time.

虽然有时候，在我看来，我有点不公平地被贴上了“刻意冷暴露”的标签，因为我们在这个播客里聊了很多话题，不只是这个，但我确实觉得它非常有用。

And although I sometimes, in my opinion, unfairly get taxed to the deliberate cold exposure, as we call it thing a little too much, because we talk about many things on this podcast, not just that, I do find it very useful.

而且多年前，我的实验室和特种作战社区有过合作，他们会告诉你，它之所以是个绝佳工具，原因之一就是它非常可靠。

And years ago, my lab had collaborations with the special operations community, and they'll tell you that one of the reasons it's such a wonderful tool, is it's so reliable.

你总能得到肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素在大脑中的增加，而且在某种程度上，这可能让你惊讶，也许不，你经常会看到皮质醇的降低，这有点矛盾，但当人们练习时，它非常可靠，只要不是太冷，或者是在一个开放的湖里，你可以——

You always get an increase in adrenaline, norepinephrine in the brain, and to some extent, and this might surprise you, perhaps not, you get often reductions in cortisol, which is kind of paradoxical, but when people practice it, it's very reliable and provided it's not so cold, or it's an open lake where you can-

它可靠又高效。

It's reliable and super efficient.

而且安全。

And safe.

我的意思是，除非你在湖里做，或者你过度换气五分钟。

I mean, for Unless you're doing it in a lake or you're doing hyperventilation Five minutes

淋浴后，它极其高效。

after a shower, it's extremely efficient.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得五分钟挺长的，那挺好的。

I thought- Five minutes, that's a lot, that's good.

五分钟的话，你看我的身体质量指数，五分钟之后我就体温过低了。

Well, five minutes, see, you can look at my body mass index, after five minutes, I get hypothermic.

对。

Yeah.

所以我不能在里面待那么久。

So I can't stay in there

那已经是很长一段时间了，即使在冷水淋浴下。

at That's a good long while, and even in a cold shower.

而且现在有证据表明，对于你描述的那种后续压力，恢复力有所提高。

And there are, there's now evidence of improved resilience to subsequent stressors of the sort that you described.

而且有一些不错的论文。

And there are some okay papers.

我觉得这是一个很棒的工具，特别是对于这种缓冲，这种即时的压力源愤怒反应。

I think it's a wonderful tool, especially for this buffering, this immediate stressor anger response.

对。

Yeah.

非常强大。

Very powerful.

在我们开始之前，迈克，我们聊到了另一种压力源，就是你正在训练的超级马拉松，100英里的比赛，顺便说一句，光是去挑战这个就已经非常了不起了。

Before we went on, Mike, we were talking about a different type of stressor, which is the ultramarathons that you're currently training for a 100 mile race, which is by the way, super impressive, even to just to shoot for it.

我知道你已经跑过其他的了。

I know you've done others

尝试本身就是一种勇敢的表现。

Trying is proper divoge here in Okay, front

嗯，我对你有信心。

well, I have confidence in you.

两个月后再跟我说吧。

Talk to me in two months

好的，我会的，现在告诉你我有信心。

and Yes, I will, tell you have confidence now.

你一定会完成这场100英里比赛的，但我们现在要聊的这件事，我觉得现在提出来很合适。你之前说过，在这些比赛中，有时候你会觉得自己状态糟透了，但之后又会好转。

Work You're gonna finish this 100 mile race, but we were talking about something that I think is relevant to bring up now, which is, you were describing how, you know, at some points during these races, you just feel like complete garbage, but then you start to feel better.

所以下次你再觉得状态糟透的时候，你心里知道，你之前也难受过，但后来就好了。这样你就能在更长的时间跨度里整合这些经验。

And so then the next time you feel like complete garbage, you have the cognitive knowledge that you felt terrible, then better again, and so you're starting to integrate over longer periods of time.

所以这是情绪调节的另一个例子，只不过时间尺度长得多。

So here's another example of emotion regulation, but over much longer timescales.

对大多数人来说，这比冷水澡更难做到。

It's a little bit harder to access for most people than a cold shower.

没错，但我觉得这是我喜欢超级马拉松的一个原因，也是我把自己定义为超马跑者的原因之一。虽然我几十年没跑了，现在才重新开始，就是因为这种非线性。

No, but I think this is one thing, one reason, there are many but if there's one reason that I love these ultramarathons and sort of identify as an ultra runner, even though I didn't do it for decades, I'm just now getting back into it, because of that nonlinearity.

你会经历大起大落，超马圈有句话叫‘ relentless forward momentum’，就是不断向前。

You have these major ups and downs, and you know, sort of mantra that ultra running has co opted is relentless forward momentum.

但心理上的对应就是‘ relentless optimism’，就是永远乐观。

But the sort of psychological equivalent is just relentless optimism.

就像面对逆境时保持乐观。

Like optimism in the face of adversity.

你必须保持这种心态。

You have to just keep that mindset.

而且那里的每个人都是这样。

And everybody there is like that.

你知道，跑到大约40英里、50英里、60英里的时候，你转过某个弯，看起来和感觉都很糟糕。

You know, you come around like mile 40, mile 50, mile 60, you come around some curve and you look and feel like crap.

人们会说，看起来不错。

People go, looking good.

没人会说，嗯，看起来你完不成比赛了。

Nobody says, well, looks like you're not gonna make it.

不。

Nope.

没人会那么说。

Nobody says that.

对吧？

Right?

所以每个人都特别积极。

So everybody is super positive.

你在坚持，但真的很难。

You're hanging in there and it is really hard.

而且你一路都在下坡，膝盖不行了，脚上起了泡，呕吐，累得要死，然后你推算一下，觉得这肯定坚持不下去了。

And you you've just been going downhill, your knees are shot, you have blisters, you've been vomiting, super tired, and you extrapolate and you think this is not going to work.

但如果你拒绝放弃，虽然不总能成功，但大概有一半的时候，情况会稳定下来，然后又开始回升。

But if you refuse to give up, doesn't always work, but about half the time or so, it levels out and it starts going back up again.

你继续往前走。

You keep going.

我的意思是，到50英里的时候你会觉得整个人都垮了。

I mean, you feel wrecked at mile 50.

我觉得垮了，或者更早，30英里的时候。

I feel wrecked, or earlier, Mile 30.

这个我不太清楚。

I wouldn't know.

从来没有。跑到50英里的时候，试着继续前进，然后说，哇，我们还得再来一遍？

Never And run 50 trying to move forward and say, Wow, we have to do this over again?

这简直难以想象。

This is like not fathomable.

所以这真的是一次很有趣的考验，考验你永不放弃，并且能做到你认为不可能做到的事情。

So it's a really interesting exercise in not giving up and being able to do something that you think is impossible to do.

而且，你的所有听众，如果任何一个跟你一起跑步，都会得出两个结论。

For that matter, all of your listeners would think it's if any any of your listeners went running with me, would conclude two things.

第一，他们比我跑得快。

One is they're faster than I am.

第二，我肯定跑不完100英里，这意味着如果我真的完成了100英里，你们所有人也都能做到，我觉得这是真的。

And two, I'm not gonna be able to do a 100 miles, which means if I actually finished the 100 miles, all of you would be able to do so as well, which I think is true.

我觉得任何人都能做到。

I think anybody can do it.

任何基本健康的人，只要他们真的想，这是关键，就真的能做到。

Anybody who's basically healthy, if they only wanted to, which is the key, could actually do it.

所以这真的是一次很有意思的挑战。

So it's just a really interesting exercise.

你知道吗，其实只有三十个小时而已，但就是三十个小时。

You know, it's only thirty hours, only, but it's only thirty hours.

又不是说要花好几年的时间。

It's not like, you know, years.

能有多难呢？

How hard can it be?

嗯，挺难的，但也不是做不到。

Well, it's hard, but it's doable.

确实是能做到的。

It's definitely doable.

所以就正好处在一个看似不可能、又极其艰难，但偏偏还能完成的状态。

And so it's just in that sweet spot of something that seems impossible and is just unbelievably hard, but doable.

而且如果能做到的话，还挺吸引人的，当然也不是每次都能成功。

And that's attractive somehow, if you can do it, which of course doesn't happen all the time.

对，我不知道有没有相关数据，但对于那些经历过非常艰难的事情并且变得更好的人，或者那些像你描述的那样强迫自己去刻意做艰难事情的人，我确实认为那段记忆可以唤起我们身体和大脑去应对其他困难的能力。

Yeah, and I don't know if there are any data on this, but for people that have lived through really hard things and come out better, or have pushed themselves to deliberately do hard things of the sort that you're describing, I do think that the memory of that can recall our body and brain's ability to lean into other hard things.

我也这么认为。

I think so.

我是说，肯定是这样的。

I mean, it must be the case.

我不知道有没有好的实验证明这一点，但你知道，那就是所谓的创伤后成长吧，我想。有些人从非常困难的处境中走出来。

I don't know of any good experiments on that, but you know, was that post traumatic resilience, I guess they call it, you know, mean, some people come out of very difficult circumstances.

是的。

Yeah.

也许他们做了所谓的“功课”，或者没有，然后他们就说，好吧，我因为摆脱了困境而变得更好了。

Maybe they do the quote unquote, the work they need to or not, and they just say, okay, like I'm better for life because I'm out of it.

另一些人则带着那些创伤前行，他们的心理，有时还有身体健康，都呈下降趋势。

Other people carry the wounds of that forward in a way that they're, you know, their psychological, and sometimes their physical health is a downward trajectory.

关于我们应该如何理解痛苦和痛苦的终结，这真是一件非常有趣的事情。

It's a very interesting thing about like, how should we conceptualize pain and pain ending?

有些人似乎一直活在痛苦已经发生的不适之中。

Some people seem to live in the discomfort of the pain having even happened.

是的，如果痛苦是有期限的，你当然可以坚持并克服严重的逆境。

Yeah, you can certainly persevere and overcome severe adversity if it's time limited.

而且我觉得，正如你所说，你对自己以及自己克服逆境能力的信念，是一个重要的组成部分。

And I think just your own sort of belief in yourself and your capability to overcome adversity, as you were saying, is one important component.

另一个是感恩或敬畏之类的东西。

Another one is something like gratitude or awe.

你会去欣赏并珍视我此刻能在这里和你交谈这个事实。

And you get to appreciate and just value just the fact that I'm here talking to you.

我的意思是，我现在真的对存在本身感到感恩和某种敬畏。

I mean, I'm actually grateful and feeling some sense of awe right now at just existing.

所以，达到那种每天早上醒来都有一种感恩和敬畏交织的感觉，我认为这是从这一切中带走的非常有价值的东西。

So getting to that point where you're just, every morning you wake up and you have this sense of, I guess, gratitude and awe, some combination of those emotions, I think that's a really valuable thing to carry out of all of this.

你知道，这需要时间来积累，但我喜欢这样生活。

You know, it takes time to kind of accumulate, but I like living that way.

我想回到情绪系统的话题，但我觉得有必要提一下，我们请过达彻·凯尔特纳上节目，他谈到了敬畏。

I wanna get back to the emotion system, but I'll just, I feel inclined to mention, we had Dacher Keltner on the Oh, he's he's talking talking awe.

是的，他把敬畏定义得非常美。

Yeah, he defined it so beautifully.

他说，敬畏就是当我们的注意力从小的空间尺度转向大的空间尺度，或者从大转向小的时候。

He said, It's when we bring our attention from a small spatial scale to a large spatial scale, or from large to small.

但在我们讨论的过程中，他补充说，这在时间维度上也是如此。

But then during the course of our discussion, he added that this is also true in the time domain.

所以当我们日复一日地生活时，我们开始感到在时间中迷失。

So when we live our life day to day, we start to feel kind of lost in time.

对。

Yeah.

而敬畏就变得不那么常见了。

And awe becomes less common.

但当我们或许在三十小时内跑完一百英里的比赛时，我们会意识到三十小时内能发生多少事情。

But when perhaps we run a 100 mile race across thirty hours, we realize how much can happen in thirty hours.

有人可能会说，哎呀，那你跑完比赛之后，剩下的生活就显得微不足道了，但事实似乎恰恰相反。

One could say, Oh, well then you finish the race and the rest of life seems trivial, but it seems the opposite is true.

我们意识到时间是一种非常有弹性的东西，至少在心理上是这样。

That we realize that time is this very elastic thing, at least in our minds.

然后突然之间，我们会对未来还有那么多日子可以活而感到敬畏。

And all of a sudden we have awe for the fact that we have so many days of life to live forward.

这非常有趣，而且这几乎又回到了冰浴的话题，就像你经历了一种高度压缩、充满压力的体验，它给了你那个间隙，那个刺激和反应之间的间隙，而这个间隙似乎很难触及，除非我们让自己经历这种种……

It's very interesting and it almost speaks to the ice bath again, like you have this very compressed, stressful experience that gives you that gap, that gap between stimulus and response that seems very hard to access unless we subject ourselves to these kinds of

不，我认为这种能力，我的意思是，人们认为，你知道，黑猩猩也许能感受到敬畏，但我认为，至少就我们而言，这是一种独特的人类情感。

No, and I think that capability, I mean, people think, you know, chimpanzees maybe can feel awe, but I think I think it's a uniquely, at least as we have it, it's a uniquely human emotion.

而且它基于我们拥有的一种广泛的元认知能力，那就是将我们的意识体验从当下抽离出来，进行心理时间旅行，这相当依赖于理解他人的需求。

And it's based on a broad sort of metacognitive ability we have, which is to detach our conscious experience from the here and now and do like mental time travel, it's pretty derivative to the need to understand other people.

所以我现在就能设身处地为你着想。

So I could put myself into your shoes right now.

我能做到。

I can do that.

我可以想象坐在你现在的位置，看到拉尔夫·阿道夫斯在这里。

I could imagine sitting where you're sitting and I'm seeing Ralph Adolphs here.

你知道吗，我能想象自己在空间里转来转去，去体验另一个人的视角。

You know, I could imagine zooming around and adopting another person's perspective in space.

我们当然也会在时间上穿梭，回忆过去的事情，想象未来的情景。

We certainly zoom around in time and reminisce, you know, stuff from the past, imagine things in the future.

我觉得敬畏也是这种感觉。

And I think awe is like that too.

我们采取一种不同于当下的视角，我觉得这可能是人类意识体验的一种特质，也就是我们能对它有所控制。

We adopt a different perspective that's not just tied to the here and now, which I think is probably a crucial ability that distinguishes the nature of conscious experience in humans, which is that we have some control over it.

我能模拟成为你是什么样的。

I can simulate what it's like to be you.

我可以想象自己处于过去或未来。

I can imagine being in the past or in the future.

当我感到敬畏的时候，我可以把视野拉得很广。

I can zoom out broadly when I'm feeling awe.

我觉得动物更像是被困在感官当下传递的信息里。

And I think animals are more just stuck with whatever the senses are delivering to them right now.

那就是它们意识体验的全部内容。

That's the content of their conscious experience.

而我们可以灵活地运用这些信息。

We can use it flexibly.

我觉得这就是为什么我们能做计划、写小说、写虚构故事，而且大部分时间都在想这些，对吧？

And that's, I think, why we can plan and write novels and fiction and think about most of the time, right?

如果我问你，你的意识里有什么？

If I ask you, what's in your consciousness?

你在想什么？

What are you thinking about?

并不是眼前的东西。

It's not stuff that's in front of you.

你在做白日梦，思绪飘到各种地方去了。

You're daydreaming, you're like all kinds of places.

这确实赋予了人类心智一种力量，使其区别于其他所有动物。

And that really gives the human mind the power that distinguishes it from any other animals.

这也是我们拥有这一切、让我们如此与众不同的原因。

And it's the reason we have everything that we have that makes us so different.

所以，敬畏，我认为，是一种独特的人类情感，它源于我们能够采取宏大视角，或者说不局限于感官直接传递的信息的视角。

So awe, I think, is an example of a uniquely human emotion that derives from that that ability to adopt a vast point of view or a point of view that's not tied to just whatever the senses are delivering to you.

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I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor AG1.

我很高兴地告诉大家，AG1刚刚推出了他们的最新配方，AG1 Pro。

I'm excited to share that AG1 has just launched their newest formulation, AG1 Pro.

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AG1 Pro takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients, creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine.

每份含有五克一水肌酸，有助于增强肌肉力量和表现，同时促进大脑健康。

Each serving has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance, as well as brain health.

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Calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.

这三种成分都有充分的科学依据支持。

All three of these ingredients have compelling science to support them.

所以我很高兴看到它们被加入到现有的AG1配方中。

And therefore I love seeing them added to the existing AG1 formula.

你们大多数人都知道，我每天服用AG1已经将近十四年了。

As most of you know, I've been taking AG1 every day for nearly fourteen years now.

我早在知道播客是什么之前就开始服用它了。

I started taking it long before I even knew what a podcast was.

这是一个很棒的产品，现在新的AG1 Pro配方让它变得更好。

It's a great product and it's now made even better with the new AG1 Pro formula.

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AG1 is giving away a free bottle of omega-three coenzyme Q10 with your first subscription.

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既然我们在讨论如何评估他人的情绪或视角，你或者领域里其他人有哪些关于情绪感知和评估的经典实验？

As long as we're talking about assessing the emotions or the perspective of another, what are some favorite experiments, either yours or others in the field about perception and assessment of emotions?

你知道，我看过很多研究，比如，大脑某个部位受损的人会觉得可怕的脸没那么可怕。

You know, I've seen a number of studies like, oh, you know, people with lesions here or there see scary faces is not that scary.

到2026年，这些研究得出了什么普遍结论？

What's the sort of general conclusions about those studies now in 2026?

因为我觉得我读研究生时教科书里的很多内容可能已经站不住脚了。

Because I have a feeling a lot of what was in the textbooks when I was a graduate student may not still hold up.

我九十年代初在DiMaggio那里做博士后时，就是从这个课题开始的，研究了一个著名病人SM，她双侧杏仁核选择性受损，结果是她无法从面部表情中感知恐惧。

When I started as a postdoc in the early nineties with DiMaggio, I started my career on that topic by studying this famous patient, SM, who had selective bilateral amygdala lesions, and the finding was that she's unable to perceive fear in emotional facial expressions.

感知恐惧？

Perceive fear?

她能感受到恐惧吗？

Could she feel fear?

后来我们也做了那个实验。

Subsequently, we also did that.

由于某些原因，这更难做到，所以花了好几年时间。

It took for some reason, because it's just harder to do, it took some years.

贾斯汀·范斯坦，他在毛伊岛开了一家FLOAT诊所，是那篇论文的第一作者。

Justin Feinstein, who has the FLOAT Clinic in Maui, was the first author on that paper.

所以几年后，我们带同一个病人去了鬼屋。

So some years later, we took that same patient to haunted houses.

我们带她去了一个异国宠物店，那里有蛇和蜘蛛。

We took her to an exotic pet store where there were snakes and spiders.

我们给她看恐怖电影，还有一大堆别的东西，结果发现她似乎也没有有意识地体验到恐惧。

We showed her horror movies, a whole bunch of things, and found also she doesn't seem to consciously experience fear either.

所以，从这一个病人来看，似乎存在一种与杏仁核相关的非常特定的恐惧缺陷。

So there seemed to be this very specific deficit for fear tied to the amygdala from one patient.

所以这是一个很大的注意事项。

So that's a big caveat.

这能推广到其他人吗？

Does this generalize?

是的，杏仁核对恐惧很重要，但仅仅说它是恐惧中枢就太简单了。

Well, yes, the amygdala is important for fear, but just saying it's a center for fear is overly simplistic.

它嵌入在一个大的结构网络中。

It's embedded in a big network of structures.

还有个体差异等等。

There's individual differences and so on and so forth.

情绪感知已经被研究了很多，可能也是某种程度上争论最激烈的话题。

The perception of emotions has been studied a lot and probably has been the topic of the most acrimonious debates to some extent.

保罗·艾克曼在70年代，顺便说一句，他很有名，我即将出版的书就是献给他的，因为他可能对现代情绪科学的影响是最大的，超过任何一个人。

So Paul Ekman back in the 70s, famous by the way, I dedicate my forthcoming book to him because he probably had the biggest impact on modern emotion science of any single person.

但他的成名之举是去了新几内亚，去了那些非西方文化的地方，声称在所有文化中，人们都能从面部表情中识别出这些所谓的基本情绪。

But his claim to fame was he went to New Guinea and these non Western cultures and claimed that universally across all cultures people recognize these so called basic emotions from facial expressions.

如果你现在谷歌一下，你知道，情绪面部表情，你会找到情绪面部表情的图片。

If you Google this now, you know, emotional facial expressions, you will find pictures of emotional facial expressions.

很多AI公司和计算机算法都基于这样一个想法，即你可以从一个人的面部表情中读出情绪。

Lots of AI companies and computer algorithms are predicated on the idea that you can read out the emotion from somebody's facial expression.

他提出了六种基本情绪：快乐、惊讶、恐惧、愤怒、厌恶和悲伤。

He had six of them: happiness, surprise, fear, anger, disgust, and sadness.

有时还会加上轻蔑。

Sometimes contempt added in there.

但事实证明，事情比这要复杂得多。

Well, it turns out it's more complicated than that.

实际上，丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特，就是那位，几年前和我以及其他三个人合写了一篇论文，标题大概是《重新审视面部表情》。

And actually, Lisa Feldman Barrett, of all people, coauthored a paper with me and three other people a couple of years back that the title was something like Emotional Facial Expressions Reconsidered.

我们回顾了整个文献，然后问：这真的成立吗？

We took stock of the whole literature and asked, is this really true?

埃克曼的说法真的成立吗？

Is Eckman's claim really true?

你能从一个人的面部表情看出他的感受吗？

Can you tell how someone feels from their facial expression?

答案是，远没有你想的那么准，而且总的来说，不能。

And the answer is, well, not nearly as well as you would think, and in general, not.

原因在于方法上的问题。

And the reasons are methodological.

而且一旦你仔细想想，其实很有道理。埃克曼开创的那些情绪面部表情，我在1994年那篇《自然》论文里就用过，研究对象是他的杏仁核损伤病人。但这些表情并不是你在日常生活中常见的那种。

And once you think about it, make a lot of sense, which is that the emotional facial expressions that Eckman pioneered, I used them in the first 1994 Nature paper with his amygdala lesion patient, those aren't actually what you normally see walking around the world.

人们平时不会做出那些表情。

People don't have those facial expressions.

那些都是摆拍出来的表情，对，非常夸张。

They are posed facial expressions by Yeah, they're very extreme.

然后任务就是，这里有一列情绪词，比如快乐、恐惧、愤怒、厌恶等等。

And then the task is like, well, here's a list of emotion words, happiness, fear, anger, disgust, etcetera.

选出和这个面孔匹配的那个。

Pick the one that matches the face.

这就是典型的任务。

That's the typical task.

所以是选择题。

So it's multiple choice.

你看，如果我给你一堆表情符号和一堆情绪词，让你把它们配对，你很容易就能做到。

Look, if I gave you a bunch of emoticons and a bunch of emotion words and asked you to match them, you could do that very easily.

但这并不能说明情绪的本质。

It wouldn't show you anything about emotions.

它只是表明，按照惯例，这些东西和那些东西之间存在某种关联。

It shows you that there's, by convention, there's some association between these things and these things.

仅此而已。

That's it.

所以，当你真正看到现实世界中的面部表情，并且不提供列表，只是让人们自由说出一个描述性的词时，你会得到更多样、更异质的结果，这后来成为丽莎整个主张的一部分：变异是常态，情绪在某种意义上是构建出来的，而不是自然界中现成的包裹，但我不同意那部分。

So when actually see real world facial expressions, and when instead of giving a list, just ask people, just generate freely a word that describes that, you get something that has much more variation, much more heterogeneity, which then was part of the ingredient for Lisa's whole claim that variation is the norm and that in fact emotions are in some sense constructed rather than packages to be found in nature, which I disagree with that part.

但对于面部表情，对于他人和动物情绪的感知，

But for the emotional facial expressions, for the perception of emotions in others and in animals.

我进来之前还在和你的一位同事聊起你可爱的狗。

I was just talking before coming in here to one of your colleagues about your cute dog.

现在有几项研究，如果你问狗主人，你能分辨出你的狗在回家时因为做了坏事而感到内疚吗？

And they've done studies, there's several studies now, where dog owners, if you ask them, can you tell if your dog feels guilty when you come home because it did something bad?

狗主人很确信自己能看出来。

Dog owners are pretty convinced they can tell.

但如果做对照实验，结果就是碰运气。

Well, if you do a controlled experiment, there are chance.

他们以为自己能看出来。

They think they can tell.

所以我们坚信自己能通过面部表情看出人或动物的情绪状态，但这种自信远远超出了我们的实际准确度。

So our conviction that we can tell something about people or animals, their emotion states, just from looking at the facial expressions, our conviction vastly outstrips our accuracy.

我们非常确信自己能做到。

We're pretty convinced we can do it.

但大多数时候我们并不那么准确。

We're mostly not so accurate.

这很合理，因为通常来说，这不仅仅是面部表情的问题。

Which makes sense because ordinarily, it's not just some facial experience.

如果我现在看到你，你看起来很伤心，我不会就此打住。

If I see you now and you look sad, I wouldn't stop there.

会说，安德鲁·休伯曼很伤心。

Would say, Andrew Huberman is sad.

我会问你，你感觉怎么样？

I would ask you, How are you feeling?

发生什么事了？

What's going on?

我会进一步询问你，获取更多信息。

I would probe you and get a lot more information.

也许你会说，哦不，我只是喝的这杯饮料味道不好，或者什么的，你知道，那让我做出了某种面部表情。

Maybe you would say, Oh no, I'm just this drink I had tasted bad or something, you know, that caused me to make a certain facial expression.

所以总的来说，在这些人为的实验室情境中，你只看到一张脸的照片，然后被要求判断情绪，我们在现实世界中并不会这样做。

So in general, these artificial lab situations where all you see is a picture of a face and asked for the emotion, we don't do that in the real world anyway.

我们会进一步探究，会考虑整个环境，会询问那个人，然后你就能区分这些情绪了。

We would probe further, we would take into account the whole circumstances, we would ask the person, and then you can disambiguate these emotions.

所以并不是说我们无法判断人或动物感受到什么情绪，但我们通常不会仅仅从像面部表情这样的单一信息来判断。

So it's not that we cannot tell what emotions people or animals feel, but we don't do so normally just from a single slice like a facial expression.

我觉得，至少在恋爱关系里，我们对另一个人的判断，以及他们对我们的判断，其实很大程度上是一种数学式的整合——我们会注意到对方说话或发消息的频率，是不是相对于平均水平开始往消极的方向走了，对吧？

I feel like, at least in the context of romantic partnership, so much more of our assessment of another person and their assessment of us is actually a mathematical integration of noticing when frequency of speech or frequency of text is heading in a negative direction relative to the mean, right?

对，比如在一天中的某个特定时间，我觉得大脑特别擅长做这种事——比如说，某人通常早上话挺多，晚上话少一点。

Yeah, At a particular time of day, and I think the brain is really good at saying like, normally somebody is pretty communicative in the morning, but less at night, for sake of example.

但突然有一天，早上对我们说话变得有点简短了，甚至可能算不上冷淡。

But suddenly they're like a little more terse with us in the morning, but maybe not even harshness.

只是交流的字数变少了，然后大脑不会想，哦，他们看起来生气了，或者他们看起来沮丧了。

There's just fewer words exchange, and then the brain doesn't think, Oh, like they looked angry, or they looked frustrated.

你会想，哦，他们今天早上比平时安静了一点。

You go, Oh, they were like, It's a little quieter this morning than usual.

作为一个本身就很安静的人，你能参考的数据点更少，但我们对这种变化会变得特别敏感。

And as a very quiet person, you have fewer data points to work from, but we become exquisitely tuned to this.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

比那种，哦，他们肩膀的姿势不一样了，要敏感得多。

Much more than like, oh, they're carrying their shoulders differently.

在极端情况下，我觉得我们会看到这种情况，有人走进门，你就能看出来他们要么是难过，要么是想要改变。

At the extremes, I think we see this, somebody walks in the door and you can tell like they're But sad or they're to, they're looking for change.

你在寻找改变。

You're looking for change.

这是一个时间序列，而且

It's a time series and

动态变化。

the the dynamic.

有时候，甚至就像，你可能有过这种经历，比如和同事的邮件里，我们换个领域来说。

Of times, or even just like, you probably had this experience, like in an email with a colleague, let's move it to a different domain.

邮件里使用的某种语言和平时的不一样。

There's a certain kind of language that's used in an email that's different than the usual language.

就像他们以前从没用过这些词。

Like they've never really used these words before.

你甚至不知道是哪些词。

You don't even identify which words those are.

很多年前，有个研究生或者博士后弄了个图表，说如果实验室主任在邮件末尾签上全名，那意思就不一样。

Years ago, there was this chart that some graduate student or postdoc put out that if the director of a lab signs off with their name, it means one thing.

如果他们用了标点符号，那意思就是，咱们得见个面，你知道吗，你有麻烦了。

If they punctuate their email, it means like, let's meet, know, like you're in trouble.

你知道，如果只是画个破折号加个名字首字母，你知道，就有这些讲究，你也会笑，然后你意识到，哇，他们真的很在意这些细微的线索，但这些似乎就是我们依赖的那种线索。

You know, if there's just a dash with a first initial, you know, there's all this, and you kind of, I laugh too, and then you realize, you go, wow, like, they're really paying attention to all these subtle cues, but those seem like the kind of cues that we rely on

对。

it.

他们只有这些。

That's all they had.

但这是动态的。

But it's dynamic.

这是一场对话。

It's a conversation.

就像整个转录文本一样。

It's like a whole transcript.

那么问题来了，你能从这些文字中看出一个人的什么，无论是他们稳定的性格还是当前的情绪？

And then the question is, what can you tell about a person, both in terms of their stable personality and their current mood, just from that text?

事实证明，你能看出很多。

It turns out you can tell a lot.

所以最近有人做了研究，让人们写大约一页左右的日记式文字，然后让像GPT或Claude这样的大型语言模型分析这些文字，不给他们任何其他信息，只让他们给出性格画像。

So people did the study recently where people generated, I think it's about a page or so of sort of diary type written text, and asked just large language models like GPT or Claude to analyze that text without knowing anything else and just tell me the personality profile.

结果和真实情况一样好，或者和其他人或临床医生一样好。

And it's as good as the ground truth or as another person or a clinician would be.

和临床医生一样好？

As good as a clinician?

它接近真实情况，就像好朋友或了解这个人的人一样好。

It gets close to the ground truth, it's good as like a good friend or a person who knows the person.

所以如果你用大五人格来评分，也就是他们在那个研究中做的，外向性、尽责性、神经质等等，你就能看出来。

So if you score the big five, which is what they did in that study, extroversion, conscientiousness, neuroticism, etc, you can tell that.

AI能很好地从文字记录中看出这些。

AI can tell that just from a transcript of text quite well.

所以信息其实就在那里，很明显，在我们说的话、写的东西以及这些内容展开的顺序里，都能看出很多关于一个人的信息。

So the information is there, clearly, in what we say, what we write, and the order in which that progresses, that tells a lot about a person.

已经足够让AI仅凭文字就能基本判断你的性格了。

Enough that AI can basically diagnose your personality from just text.

这几乎就像我们的大脑对互动量没有达到预期时非常敏感。

It's almost like our brain is very attuned to when we don't get what we were expecting to get in terms of the amount of interaction.

比如我住的地方，有一些人负责清理街上的涂鸦，我们之间总是会打个招呼，或者如果有人在打电话或忙的时候，也会简单说声“嗨”。

Like I have some people that clean up the graffiti on the street where I live, and there's always an exchange of hello or like a hi, if one of us is on a call or busy.

我可以肯定地说，因为前几天就发生过这样的事，如果我抬头看过去，对方看到我然后转身走开，尽管我们不知道对方的名字，也许我现在知道了，但我们之间除了总是互相确认对方的存在之外，几乎没有别的熟悉感。

And I can say with certainty, because this happened the other day, that if I looked over and the person saw me and then turned away, even though we, I don't know their name, well, maybe I do now, but there's very little familiarity except with, we always acknowledge the other's presence.

是的。

Yeah.

如果他们那样做，我会想，天哪，这个人可能有点不高兴。

If they were to do that, I would think, gosh, like this person's like, maybe upset.

这是丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特思想中的一个关键要素，尤其是在最近几年，那就是预测。

That's one of the key ingredients of Lisa Feldman Baird's thinking, certainly in recent years, which is prediction.

大部分信息来自于你对某种情况的预测与实际发生的情况之间的差异，因为差异本身就携带信息。

That most of the information comes from when there's a mismatch between what you're predicting about a circumstance and something that's just different, because that carries information.

有变化，对吧？

Something changed, right?

就像你刚才说的。

Like what you were saying.

而丽莎的工作，她关于情绪的想法，如今很大程度上融入了预测。

And Lisa's work, Lisa's thinking on emotions incorporates prediction in a big way these days.

就是说你对世界有所预测，但突然出现一只老虎或者什么意外，你需要把它纳入考虑，而这本身就携带重要信息。

That there's something that you're predicting about the world but suddenly there's a tiger or something unexpected and you need to incorporate that and that carries important information.

没错，我们总是在预测，同时也会注意到变化，比如面部表情，你知道，最初的研究，我博士后时开始做的那些，就是展示静态的保罗·艾克曼面部表情图片。

But absolutely, we're always predicting and we're taking into account things that change, like the facial expressions, you know, the original studies, the ones I started doing as a postdoc where you just show these static Paul Ekman pictures of facial affect.

但我们在现实中从来不会看到那样的表情。

Well, we never see that in people.

表情总是动态的。

It's always dynamic.

脸是在变化的。

The face is changing.

所以苏格兰的菲利普·辛斯、瑞秋·杰克和他们的同事，就详细研究了这个问题，他们用真人做表情的动态视频，然后问：大脑是在什么时候开始区分不同情绪的？不是根据脸长什么样，而是根据脸怎么在变。

And so Philip Shins, Rachel Jack, colleagues in Scotland, for instance, have studied this in great detail and used dynamic actual videos of people making faces and asked, at what point does the brain start to represent different emotions depending on not how the face looks, but how the face is changing.

动态变化无处不在。

Dynamics are everywhere.

这一点非常重要。

It's super important.

因为当我们看婴儿的时候，他们第一次微笑，或者展现出我们觉得是幽默或者类似的表情时，我们非常关注他们的脸，因为他们还做不了太多事情。

Because when we look at babies and they start to smile for the first time, or they express what we think is, you know, humor or something like that, we are so tuned to faces because they can't really do much.

他们是否在和我们互动，基本上取决于我们的行为。

Whether or not they're interacting with us or not, is really dependent on our behavior.

这里有很多控制的因素，是我们把他们放在我们面前的。

There's a lot of control there, we're putting them in front of us.

随着他们逐渐变得更自主，这些动态变化才真正显现出来。

As they develop more autonomy, then these sorts of dynamics really emerge.

对，脸，我是说，脸是可见的，而且人脸比其它动物有更多的肌肉和控制力。

Right, the face, I mean, the face is visible and the face, the human face has way more muscles and control than other animals do.

类人猿有相似的肌肉群，但猴子或者你的狗，你做不出那些表情。

Great apes have similar sets of muscles, but monkeys or your dog, you can't make those kinds of faces.

就是没有那种表情。

Just doesn't He's have

偶尔会斜眼看一下。

the side eyeing every once in a while.

我会猜测他那样是什么意思，但他真的很可爱。

And I project onto him what that's about, but he's a real sweetie.

还有一只斗牛犬混血，两只都是混血，那只更粗鲁，不那么亲热。

Had another bulldog mutt, they're both mutts, who was much more coarse, less affectionate.

这只就像纯黄油一样温顺。

This one is like pure butter.

但当然，我不知道他脑子里在想什么。

But of course, I don't know what's going on in his head.

他可能在想，这家伙是全世界最大的混蛋，你知道吗？

He could be thinking like, this guy's the biggest jerk in the world, you know?

比如，我真希望我们现在在散步。

Like, I wish we were walking right now.

这位病人SM，双侧杏仁核受损，她还能有自主神经反应吗？

This patient, SM, who had bilateral amygdala lesions, could she experience autonomic arousal?

她能感受到压力吗？

Could she experience stress?

她在任何情况下能感到焦虑吗？

Could she experience anxiety under any conditions?

她能。

She could.

这真的很重要。

That's really important.

所以你可能会想，整个情绪系统都没了。

So you might think that, you know, it's just like the whole emotion system is gone.

你就像是把整个自主神经系统都切断了，所以你没有情绪。

You just sort of denervated the entire autonomic nervous system, and that's why you don't have emotions.

但实际上比这更具体，这符合把情绪看作进化出来的功能模块的观点，这些模块用来处理特定类型的、在统计上反复出现的环境挑战，这些挑战有一些共同的困难特征。

But it's much more specific than that, and fits with thinking about emotions as evolved functional modules for dealing with particular types of statistically recurring environmental challenges that share some challenging feature in common.

所以她对外部压力源没有恐惧。

So she doesn't have fear to external stressors.

比如我们带她去了鬼屋。

Like we went with her into a haunted house.

她戳那些怪物，还想摸东西。

She poked the monsters and wanted to touch things.

在宠物店看到蛇和蜘蛛也一样。

Same with the snakes and spiders in the pet store.

但我们做了一个研究，还是贾斯汀·范斯坦，我想他又是第一作者，研究对象是她和另外两三个有类似损伤的病人，与德国的雷内·赫尔曼合作。我们给他们戴上口罩，让他们吸入二氧化碳。

But we did a study, again, Justin Feinstein, I think was the first author on this one as well, with her and with a couple, two maybe or three patients who had similar lesions in collaboration with Renee Herlemann from Germany, where we put a mask on them and have them inhale carbon dioxide.

如果这样做，大约一半的人会惊恐发作，因为这会让你感觉像窒息一样。

If you do that, you get a panic attack in about half the population because it makes you feel like you're suffocating.

所以一旦吸入二氧化碳，它就会改变血液中的pH值，大脑检测到这一点，你就会感到强烈的空气饥渴，就像突然无法呼吸一样。

So as soon as you get that carbon dioxide in, it changes the pH in your blood that's detected by the brain, and you get this massive air hunger like you suddenly can't breathe.

你的大脑会进入一种窒息警报模式，就像恐慌一样。

Your brain goes into this alarm mode of some suffocation, like a panic.

她和另外几位杏仁核受损的患者在吸入二氧化碳时，都经历了完全的恐慌发作。

And she and the other amygdala patients had a full blown panic attack when they inhaled the carbon dioxide.

所以这种内感受信号似乎不依赖于杏仁核，而是依赖于其他脑干回路。

So this interoceptive signal seems not to depend on the amygdala and to depend on other brainstem circuits.

因此，我们在不同类型的恐惧之间发现了非常重要的关联，我认为这对科学如何影响我们的民间心理学来说是一个核心结论，即我们拥有的这些类别，如愤怒、恐惧或厌恶。

So we had a very important association between different types of fear, which I think a bottom line story for the way that the science is informing our folk psychology, which is these categories we have like anger or fear or disgust.

这些类别有很多变体。

There are many varieties.

一旦你深入研究科学和大脑系统，就会发现它们之间的差异远不止这些。

It's much more finely differentiated than that once you look at the science and once you look at the brain systems.

在这种情况下，对于外部世界的恐惧和内部发生的事（如心脏病发作或呼吸不足）引发的恐慌，存在不同的大脑系统。

There are distinct brain systems in this instance for fear to something out there in the world versus panic of something happening inside you, like having a heart attack or not getting enough air.

明白了。

I see.

也许我们可以聊聊这些所谓情绪在身体上的表现。

Maybe we could talk a little bit about the bodily representation of these things we're calling emotions.

几年前，我在社交媒体上发了一张你论文里的图，哦不，是你和David Anderson那本书里的图，那张图描述了一项研究，人们自己描述，我记得是纯主观的报告，他们在身体的哪个部位感受到不同的情绪。

Years ago, I posted on social media, a picture of a figure from your paper with, from your book, excuse me, with David Anderson, which was describing a study where people self described, so it's purely subjective reporting, as I recall, where in their body they felt different emotions.

哦，身体

Oh, body

他们感觉，有点像

they So felt it's kind

就像

of like a

某些情绪在额头，其他情绪在全身，有很多种情绪，而且这确实是主观报告，但这靠谱吗？

heat map in the forehead for certain emotions and in the whole body for others, and there were wide range of emotions, and admittedly it's subjective report, but does this hold up?

比如我会想，我在哪里感受到悲伤，是心痛吗？

Like I think to myself, like, where do I feel sadness, like heartache?

嗯，我倾向于在心脏附近感受到它，但也许是因为它叫心痛。

Well, I tend to feel it around my heart, but maybe that's because it's called heartache.

那愤怒呢？我在哪里感受到？

Where do I feel anger?

极度的愤怒，我会感觉是全身性的体验，敬畏也是一样。

Well, extreme anger, I'm going to feel as a whole body experience, same thing with awe.

那么，我们在身体哪里感受到情绪，这种规律性和变化，有什么重要的吗？

So, what if anything is important about the regularity and or the variation in kind of where in our body we feel emotions?

有些人会说，这就像他们整个生活的体验。

Some people would say this is like their whole experience of life.

他们总是能在身体里感受到情绪。

They feel things in their body all the time.

有些人，我觉得更偏向于思考。

Some people feel, I think are more cerebral.

他们更多是思考，而不是感受。

They kind of think things more than they feel things.

你知道吗，我觉得这是个很好的问题。

You know, I think it's a great question.

我的意思是，你提到的那个图来自一篇论文，我记得是发表在PNAS上的，作者是芬兰的Lauri Neumann，他是我的同事。

I mean, figure that you're alluding to came from a paper, I think in PNAS by Lauri Neumann, my colleagues in Finland.

他和他的同事Heeny Sarimaki，他们最近用功能性磁共振成像做了一些关于人类情绪体验的出色研究。

And he and his colleague Heeny Sarimaki, they've done some of the great recent studies also on experience of emotions in humans using functional MRI.

但你提到的那个实验，其实就是我给你一个词，对吧？

But what you mentioned, so the experiment is I just give you a word, right?

我并不是真的让你去感受那种情绪。

I'm not actually making you feel the emotion.

我只是问你，比如悲伤。

I'm asking you sadness.

然后让你画出，你觉得身体哪个部位会感受到这种情绪。

Draw, you know, where on the body you think you would feel that emotion.

所以你想一下，这肯定不是关于身体实际生理变化的。

So if you think about it, it's certainly not about actual physiological changes in the body.

身体上什么都没测量。

Nothing's measured in the body.

他们也没有在身体上贴电极什么的。

They don't have electrodes on the body or whatever.

人们只是在一个小人模型上画出他们认为自己会感受到情绪的位置。

There's people just drawing on a little mannequin where they think they would feel the emotion.

这也不是关于有意识的情绪体验。

It's also not about conscious experiences of emotion.

我没有让你看悲伤的电影片段或类似的东西。

I'm not making, I'm not showing you sad movie clips or anything like that.

我只是给你一个词，一个简单的词。

I'm giving you a word, a single word.

所以这关乎概念。

So it's about concepts.

这关乎人们对于悲伤、快乐或恐惧的概念在身体上的对应位置，以及这些位置与身体变化的关系。

It's about where in the body people's concept of sadness or happiness or fear, where that corresponds to changes in the body.

这个问题很有意思，但你必须把它缩小到这个范围，这是大多数情绪研究（包括那项研究）的一个根本问题。

Now, that's an interesting question, but you have to narrow it down to that, which is a fundamental problem with most emotion studies, including that one.

我记得标题，我忘了具体是什么，大概是《情绪的身体地图》或者《主观体验的身体地图》之类的。

I think the title, I forget what the title is, it's something like bodily maps of emotions or bodily maps of subjective experience maybe even.

它应该更像是“人们对情绪词汇在身体中对应变化的观念”之类的。

It should be something like people's concept of where in the body emotion words are associated with changes or something like that.

那项研究的有趣之处在于，Lowry 后来在不同文化中进行了研究。

What's interesting about that study is that Lowry has gone on to look at it in different cultures.

他还从发展角度研究了儿童，探讨这些概念以及身体中情绪感受的位置是如何发展的。

He's looked at it developmentally across children and asked how these concepts and where in the body would feel emotion develop.

所以这是非常有趣的工作。

So it's super interesting work.

但它最终是关于人们对情绪如何对应身体变化的观念，而不是身体中真实发生的变化。

But it's ultimately about people's concepts of how emotions correspond to changes in the body, not the real actual changes in the body.

但正如你所说，当你真正感受到情绪时，身体确实会发生真实的变化。

But then, as you were saying, of course, there are real changes in the body when you really feel an emotion as well.

这确实更难研究，但人们已经做了不少研究，重点放在大脑中接收身体大量输入的部分，即大脑皮层中叫做脑岛的区域。

And that's harder to study, but people have studied it quite a bit with a focus on the part of the brain that gets a lot of input from the body, which is a part of cortex called the insula.

所以关于脑岛的研究非常多。

And so there's lots and lots of work on the insula.

它接收来自你身体所有器官的输入，全身各处。

It gets input from all the organs in your body, everywhere in your body.

比如，从心脏、肝脏、肾脏。

So, you know, from your heart, from your liver, from your kidney.

我不久前得过肾结石。

I had a kidney stone not too long ago.

我们应该聊聊肾结石。你得过肾结石吗？

We should talk about the kidney Have you had a kidney stone?

别得。

Don't.

那真的很有意思。

It's really interesting.

你得把它排出来吗？

You have to pass it?

最后是会排出来的，但会引起一些很有意思的适应性行为。

Eventually it's passed, but evokes very interesting adaptive behaviors.

对了，趁我还没忘，顺便说一句。

Well, as an aside, before I forget it.

通常对于疼痛，比如外感受性疼痛，就像我们之前说的热板实验，你会把手缩回来，或者有某种反射。

So normally for pain, extra receptive pain, like we were talking about the hot plate before, you know, you pull your hand away or there's some kind of reflex.

但肾结石那种情况就不一样了，缩手也没用。

For the kidney stone, that's not adaptive.

没有什么可以缩的。

There's nothing to pull away.

所以，我妻子，当时在瑞士。

So my wife, this was in Switzerland.

我们住在一个偏远的小镇上，半夜的时候。

We're in a remote little town in the middle of the night.

我妻子看到我蜷缩成一团，躺在地上，只是大声呼吸，蜷缩着，还来回摇晃。

My wife sees me curl up into a ball, right, on the floor, just kind of breathing loudly and kind of curled up and making rocking motions.

我问怎么了？

I what's wrong?

我告诉她，我得了肾结石。

And I tell her, well, I have a kidney stone.

然后她问我，你不能停止那种行为吗？

And then she asked me, can't you just stop that behavior?

我们能坐飞机去美国，让你做超声波，也许能治疗肾结石吗？

Can we get on a plane and fly to The US so you can get ultrasound, maybe get treated for the kidney stone?

你能停止蜷缩成一团，还有来回摇晃吗？

Can you stop curling up into a ball and, you know, making rocking motions?

我在疼痛的迷雾中思考着这个问题。

And I was kind of thinking about that through my haze of pain.

我说，不，这有点像热板和缩手一样。

Said, well, no, it's kind of like the hot plate and pulling away.

这真的是一种非常强烈的本能反应，基本上就是想要蜷缩起来。

It's a really strongly motivated behavior to just kind of withdraw, basically.

所以这是一种非常有趣的适应性行为。

So it was a very interesting adaptive behavior.

然后她打了相当于911的电话。

And she called the equivalent of nine eleven.

半夜里，有个人过来给我打了一堆阿片类药物。

And in the middle of the night, some guy came down and put a bunch of opiates into me.

他一直在问，从0到10分，你的疼痛有多严重？

And he kept having the scale of, you know, on a scale from zero to 10, how painful is it?

我大概从10分降到9.5分，那真是极其痛苦。

And I would sort of go from 10 to 9.5, and it was extremely painful.

不过最后他们把我送到了当地的一家诊所。

But eventually they got me to a clinic there.

我排出了结石，那真是一次难忘的经历。

I passed the stone and it was an interesting experience.

我的意思是，疼痛就是疼痛，但就像我们刚才讨论情绪一样，疼痛也不是单一的。

I mean, it's pain, but just like what we were talking about for emotions, pain is not pain.

比如眼睛疼或者被热炉子烫到的疼，那是完全不同的疼痛类型。

If you have a pain in your eye or you have a pain from a hot stove, this is a very different type of pain.

而且我觉得，这种疼痛比被热炉子烫还要难受。

And one that's, I would say, worse than the hot stove.

因为你想逃都逃不掉。

It's like because you can't escape.

你没法揉它。

When you can't rub it.

你什么都做不了。

You can't do anything.

只能蜷成一团，祈祷。

You just curl up into a ball and pray.

真的，太可怕了。

I mean, it was horrible.