克服内疚感与培养孩子及成人的坚韧品质 | 贝基·肯尼迪博士

我的目标不只是帮父母理解孩子的发脾气、情绪，或者家里最近的那些麻烦事。

So motivated is not just to help parents understand tantrums or emotions or, you know, the latest struggle in their house.

不过说实话，我也特别喜欢这部分。

Although I actually love that.

而是想说，等等。

It's to say, hold on.

我们一直被灌输了一种糟糕的观念，以为当父母就意味着什么，其实养育孩子首先是一场自我照顾的旅程。

Like, we've been really sold like an awful story about what it really means to be a parent and how parenting really, first and foremost, is a journey of self care.

我怎样才能让自己变得最坚强、最稳当？

How can I be the sturdiest person possible?

当事情不顺的时候，我该依靠谁？

Who do I need in my life when things go poorly?

我不会把责任推给年幼的孩子，让他们去承担本不该属于他们的负担。

I don't lean on my young children and give them a responsibility that is not theirs.

前几天我刚跟人说过，有了孩子之后，你童年时所有没处理好的伤痛，都会一下子摆在眼前。

I was just saying to someone the other day that when you have kids, all of the unhealed parts of your childhood come right before your eyes.

你的孩子会不断触发你内心的那些旧伤。

They are just triggered over and over and over with your own children.

哎，孩子又在撒娇了。

You know, oh, my kid's whining.

我真的受不了这个。

I can't deal with that.

撒娇之所以让人烦躁，大概是因为它让人联想到无助感。

Oh, well, whining is probably triggering because it's kind of representative of helplessness.

我小时候家里是怎样的？

What was it like in my family?

那时候我如果感到无助，别人允许我这样吗？

If I kind of felt helpless, was that allowed?

我是不是在一个‘你再哭，我就让你哭得更惨’的家庭里长大的？

Did I grow up in a, you know, if you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about family.

明白了。

Okay.

如果我不解决这个问题，我就会把这些情绪发泄在孩子身上，然后传给他们。

If I don't resolve that, I'm going to act that all out on my children and pass that along.

所以，当父母因为生活中的某些事被触发，产生各种情绪时，其实都属于这种情况。

So all of kind of these situations where parents are feeling all these different emotions from a trigger, from something in their life.

这正好印证了我常对父母们说的话。

I think it goes to what I always tell parents.

你最重要的事，是先照顾好自己。

You know, you have a first and foremost job of self care and taking care of yourself.

这可不是说扔下孩子，自己去欧洲玩一年。

That doesn't mean traveling to Europe for the year and leaving your kids alone.

关键是，你内心现在是什么状态？

It means what is going on inside you?

你需要哪些能力？

What skills do you need?

你需要哪些支持系统？

What networks of support do you need?

你身边有哪些支持系统，能帮你度过人生中最艰难却又最值得的旅程——为人父母？这样你就不用对孩子们说：‘你能照顾一下我吗？’

What do you have around you to help you on the hardest journey of your life and the most rewarding one of being a parent so that you don't have to say to your kids, you know, you know, can you kind of take care of me?

保罗·孔特曾来这个播客做了一系列关于心理健康的分享，不只是心理问题，还包括心理健康本身——这本身就是一个很有意思的概念。

Paul Conte, who came on this podcast to do a series about mental health, not just mental challenges, but also mental health, which is an interesting concept in its own right.

他曾经说过，如果你列出维系浪漫关系最重要的100件事，那其中50件是自我照顾，另外50件是有效沟通。

Has been quoted as saying that, you know, that if you were to list out the 100 most important things for romantic relationships, it would be self care and communication repeated 50 times.

我现在想到这句话，觉得它其实也非常适合作为几乎所有关系的模型。

And I'm thinking about that now because sounds like a pretty good model for pretty much every relationship.

没错。

Yes.

自我照顾，加上沟通。

Self care communication.

我第一次听到他说这话，其实不是在我的播客里，是在别的节目上。

And I must say the first time I heard him say that it wasn't on my podcast, it was on a different podcast.

当时还挺意外的。

Sort of surprised.

我第一个想到的就是自我照顾。

I thought self care first.

但你这么一说，我觉得如果自我照顾排在首位，或者至少是父母该做的事里非常靠前的一条，孩子就能更轻松地生活和体验人生。

But the way you're framing it, seems to me that if self care comes first, or at least very high on the list of what parents should do, it frees up the kids to live and experience life with a lot more ease.

是的。

Yeah.

更多的平静。

A lot more peace.

对。

Yeah.

还能帮他们卸下五万件不该他们扛的担子。

And to basically unburden them of about 50,000 jobs.

说得太对了。

That's exactly right.

我觉得自我照顾这个概念，其实被误解了。

And I think self care has gotten, you know, misrepresented.

这可不是每周都去做个美甲。

It doesn't mean getting a manicure every week.

如果你喜欢，当然也可以这么做。

It could, if that does it for you.

但当我想到自我照顾，尤其是我们在‘Good Inside’帮助父母时，我们总说，这个平台和我们的App，不是教你怎么当父母的。

But when I think about self care and I really think about the work we do with parents at Good Inside, we always say Good Inside and like our app, it's not parenting.

它是为父母自己准备的。

It's for parents.

它是帮你走过为人父母这一段旅程的。

It's for the journey of what it means to be a parent.

它是帮你处理自己的事的。

It's for your own stuff.

它是帮你面对那些触发点的。

It's for your triggers.

它是帮你终于学会设立界限的。

It's for finally learning how to set boundaries.

关键是终于明白，满足自己的需求是完全没问题的。

It's about finally learning that it's okay to get your needs met.

即使这会给别人带来不便，也要学会相信，你的关系足够牢固，能挺过那些别人对你生气的时刻。

Even when they inconvenience others, it's learning that your relationships are strong enough that they can get through hard moments where people are upset with you.

对吧？

Right?

比如，你真需要的时候，可以对婆婆说：星期六不能有客人来。

It's about finally saying to, if you need to, your mother-in-law, we can't have any visitors on Saturday.

我之所以现在能这么说，是因为我终于明白了自我价值，懂了这些道理。

And the reason I'm finally able to do that is because I understand my self value and all this stuff.

这跟孩子晚上睡不着根本没关系，但正是这种自我觉察，让你在凌晨两点被孩子吵醒时，能以自己感到骄傲的方式去应对。

This has nothing to do with the fact that your kid isn't sleeping at night, but that is the foundation for intervening in the way you're proud of when your kid is waking you up at two in the morning.

对吧？

Right?

这才是真正的自我关怀。

So that is the self care.

这其实不只是简单的自我照顾。

It's really like a, not just self care itself.

而是一种根本性的建立。

Establishment itself.

是成长。

Growth.

真的。

Really.

我不太了解这方面的心理学或临床研究，但我一直在想情绪转变的速度。

I don't know the psychology literature or clinical literature around this, but I'm thinking about, speed of emotional shifts.

在我自己的生活经历中，我见过情绪起伏很大的人。

In my own experience of life, I've known moody people.

也见过情绪很稳定的人。

And I've known not as moody people.

我觉得所谓情绪起伏大，就是情绪变化快，有时还来得毫无预兆。

I define moody as people that whose moods fluctuate quickly and sometimes spontaneously.

但这种说法——有些人像磐石一样稳定——真是个很好的概念。

But this, but this idea that, some people are like steady as a rock is a great concept.

但我们都知道，情绪还是得感受，也得适当表达出来。

But we also know that we need to feel our emotions, express them to some extent.

可有些人的情绪波动，如果画出来，就像高频波浪，一会儿特别沮丧，一会儿又好了。

And yet there are people where, if we were to plot this, it would look like a high frequency wave where some people are really upset, then they're feeling better again.

一会儿生气，一会儿又没事了。

They're upset, then they're feeling better again.

我不是在说严重的心理问题。

I'm not talking extreme pathology here.

就是说，比如有人开车插队，他立马火大，但转眼就又没事了。

Talking about, you know, someone cuts them off in traffic and they're pissed, but then they're fine.

看到什么开心的事，他能高兴得不得了。

They're very, very happy about something they see.

所以不一定是负面情绪，但一会儿没精打采，一会儿又陷入负面情绪。

So, it doesn't always have to be negative, but then they're kind of like flat affect and then they're into, you know, something negative.

我觉得，自己内心真实感受到的情绪，和从别人身上明显看出来的那种情绪，完全是两回事。

I think that experience of emotions is so far and away different from the experience of emotions, emitted from somebody who you can kind of see the emotion coming.

就像一种缓慢的起伏。

It's like a slow swell.

是一种扩张，然后又收缩，整个过程你都能感受到节奏。

It's like a, it's like a expansion and then a contraction again that you have time.

我总觉得，自己一直在绕回时间感知这个话题。

And I feel like I keep coming back to this theme of time perception.

不管是在佛教传统里，还是其他地方，都说要留出心理空间，要在刺激和反应之间创造一个间隙，听起来都很有道理。

Anytime we have time where we hear about like in the, all the Buddhist traditions, like space, like you're trying to create mental space and the, you know, this gap between stimulus and response.

但对有些人来说，你必须时刻保持警觉，或者干脆选择抽身退出。

It all sounds great, but with some people, you have to really be on your toes or perhaps you disengage.

我从来没听过一个让人满意的答案，可能是因为我从来没真正问出口。

And so I've never heard a satisfying answer to this probably because I've never asked it out loud.

如果你是个孩子，或者是个家长，遇到别人情绪剧烈波动的时候，比如特别生气或者特别开心。

If you're a kid or if you're a parent and somebody is experiencing something, let's say they're really angry or really happy.

你可以想象自己和他们一起乘着这波情绪起伏。

You can imagine riding that wave in with them.

你也可以选择退后一步，旁观这一切。

You could also imagine sitting back from it.

这其中一部分可能跟性格有关，但你能不能谈谈，当父母一方或双方情绪波动频繁剧烈， versus 情绪缓缓起伏、慢慢平复的时候，会有什么不同？

And some of this is probably what we'd call temperament, but maybe you could talk about this a little bit, in the context of having one or both parents, that's kind of a, like a high frequency shifts between emotions versus kind of a slow expansion and and and then settling of emotions.

因为我觉得，这两种方式带来的生活体验截然不同。

Because I feel like those are two completely different experiences of life.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得你说到重点了，我们感受情绪的方式真的天差地别。

I mean, I think you're speaking to how differently we feel emotions.

我想起我一个孩子，我叫他特别敏感的孩子。

I mean, you know, I think about one of my kids who I call a deeply feeling kid.

没错。

Right.

所以我总是觉得，她对这个世界更敏感。

So my image is always, she's just more porous to the world.

如果你想象一个人的毛孔真的更大，那外界的东西就会更容易进入。

And so if you think about someone who's more porous, that their pores are literally wider, a lot more is going to come in.

你猜怎么着？

And guess what?

同样，她也会往外释放更多东西。

A lot more is going to come out.

对。

Right.

而且她是个孩子，顺便说一下，你们在纽约市的某个区域。

And she's a kid who, by the way, you're in a certain area in New York City.

她会说：我待不下去了。

She's like, I can't be here.

那些气味对我来说，我的感官就是不一样。

The smell for me, I'm wired differently.

我当时就想，我真的一点都没闻到不一样的味道。

I was like, I literally don't smell anything different.

那这是否说明她错了？

Now, does that mean she's wrong?

不，了解她的性格，我敢打赌她真的能闻到那些气味。

No, I actually bet knowing her, she smells things.

然后她会告诉我那有多难闻，害得她根本站不住那个角落。

And then she lets me know how awful it is, and she can't stand on that corner.

而对我来说，在那一刻至少是这样，因为我们每个人敏感的地方都不一样。

And for me, in that moment, at least, because we're probably all volatile in different ways.

我看起来稳得像块石头。

I look steady as a rock.

对吧？

Right?

我还有个孩子，平时挺稳的，但一觉得自己的权威或掌控感受到威胁，就不一样了。

I have another kid who, yeah, is pretty steady until he feels like his authority and power is threatened.

那你可得当心点，你知道的。

Then you better watch out, you know?

有时候，别人可能会觉得，这孩子真容易激动。

And so in one moment, someone might see him as, wow, that kid's really volatile.

但在另外百分之九十的时间里，他其实特别淡定。

But in probably 90% of other moments, he's kind of cool as a cucumber.

所以我觉得，别把孩子简单地贴上‘总是这样’或‘总是那样’的标签，我们每个人感受情绪的方式都不一样。

So I also think it's important to categorize kids not as like always one way or another, but we all feel emotions differently.

没有谁对谁错。

None of them is wrong or right.

对我来说，关键是要别被固定在某一种模式里。

To me, the goal is to not be locked into any one thing.

对我来说，死板才是最大的敌人。

That to me, rigidity is always the enemy.

正是这种死板，拖住了我们在成年后的脚步。

That that's what holds us back in adulthood.

如果我们总是用同一种方式反应，那遇到有人插队，我就会被情绪控制，直接路怒发作。

If we're always one way, I can never handle someone cutting me off in traffic because the emotion takes me over and I have road rage.

是啊，这确实不太好。

Yeah, that's not good.

一味地压抑情绪、从不生气，这种活法其实也很局限。

That's a very rigid, limited way of living life, but it's probably also limiting to say, I've never really gotten riled up about anything.

别说路怒了，偶尔被点燃一下、对某件事充满热情，甚至强烈到想付诸行动，其实挺难得的。

Forget road rage, but it's kind of amazing to get riled up once in a while and to feel passionately about something and to feel something enough that you want to go do something about it.

对吧？

Right?

这本身没什么对错之分。

So there's no morality on it.

我觉得难点在于，作为三个孩子的父母，我每个孩子都不同。

I think what's tricky, can even say as a parent of three kids is each of my kids.

我常常想，如果我内心有这么多不同的面向，那每个面向都需要我用不同的部分去应对。

I always kind of imagine this If I have all these different parts of me, they each need a different part of me to kind of lead.

他们简直需要不同的主要照顾者。

Like they almost need different lead parents.

对吧？

Right?

我那个情感特别细腻的孩子，我知道最重要的是要相信她的感受，还得提前准备好界限，因为她情绪特别强烈，尤其是小时候。

So my kid who is my deeply feeling kid, I know what's so important is that I believe her experience and I better be ready with certain boundaries because she feels things so intensely, especially when she was younger.

我得更频繁地介入。

I have to step in more often.

行为问题也更多。

There's more difficult behavior.

对吧？

Right?

我那个特别稳重的孩子。

My kid who's really, really steady.

我有时候会试着多关注他，虽然他特别省心，但你知道，他心里其实也有很多事。

I try to sometimes, even though it's convenient because he's so easy, you know, there's definitely a lot going on in there.

有时候我会想，他会不会觉得兄弟姐妹已经占满了所有的情感空间？

And sometimes I wonder, does he almost feel like all the emotional space is taken up by his siblings?

而留给他的，只剩下像石头一样稳定，这可能会在将来导致过于僵化。

And the only thing left for him is kind of steady as a rock, that can lead to a rigidity later in life.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得这些其实都是动态变化的系统。

So I think these are like moving systems.

我们小时候如何体验情绪，很大程度上也取决于家庭系统，以及兄弟姐妹各自扮演的角色。

So much of how we experience emotions growing up is also dictated by the system and kind of the roles our siblings play.

所以我不确定这样能不能给你一个足够的答案。

And so I don't know if that kind of gives you enough of an answer.

但我认为

But I think

这很有价值，很有启发性。

that's very, that's informative.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得父母最需要明白的是，我们往往给这些行为贴上了太多道德标签。

I think the thing I'd really want parents to know is I think we placed a lot of morality on it.

如果我们坦诚一点，其实只是在拿自己的孩子跟自己的行为方式做比较。

And if we're honest with ourselves, we're probably just comparing our kid to how we do things.

如果你自己性格比较稳重，就会觉得孩子太疯了。

So if you're someone who's pretty steady, you're like, my kid is crazy.

太情绪化了。

They're dramatic.

对吧？

Right?

如果你自己性格更外向，反而不会太在意这种表现。

If you're someone who's a little more out there, you're not as bothered by that kid.

但如果你另一个孩子性格内敛，你又会觉得他太无趣了，对吧？

And then you have another kid, you're like, that kid's kind of boring, right?

因为他们太平淡了。

Because they're so flat.

所以，我觉得这一点在伴侣之间也是一样的。

And so, I mean, I think this is true in couples too.

每次吵架的时候，我们其实都在想，你为什么不能像我这样？

Whenever we're fighting, we're probably just saying, why can't you be more like me?

当我们被孩子激怒时，心里想的也是：你为什么不能像我这样？

When we're triggered by our kid, we're like, why can't you be more like me?

对吧？

Right?

其实我们彼此之间，说的不都是这句话吗？这又回到沟通的问题上了。

That's probably what we're always saying to each other, going back to communication.

但如果你换一个角度想想，别急着下判断，情绪本身没有对错之分。

But if you take a little different perspective of hold on a second, there's no wrong or right way to feel emotions.

有些行为确实不能接受，但所有的情绪都有它的意义。

Some behaviors are not allowed, but all the emotions have information.

现在孩子真正需要的，可能不是‘天啊，我孩子是不是出问题了？’

And what might my kid need right now instead of, oh my goodness, is my kid messed up?

也不是‘为什么孩子就不能有点像我呢？’

Or why is my kid not just a little bit more like me?

在情绪没发生的时候，跟孩子聊情绪有用吗？

How useful is it to talk to kids about emotions when they're not happening?

对我来说，这其实就是我一直说的‘情绪对话’，就这么简单。

I mean, to me, this is something like, always just say, I always phrase it as emotion talk, right?

让孩子明白，情绪是自己的一部分，有名字，很正常，也说得通。

Just knowing that emotions live within you, knowing that there's names for them, that they're normal, that they make sense to me.

这简直是人生最大的优势。

It's like the ultimate leg up in life.

它能让孩子特别有韧性，因为我们根本压不住情绪。

It's like it gives your kids such resilience because we, we can't beat our emotions.

我们这一代代人，不都在拼命压吗？

I feel like we've been trying that for generations.

要是我能不再那么生气、那么嫉妒、那么难过就好了，但我们的情绪在身体里是如此原始的存在。

Like if I just only didn't feel so angry or so jealous or so sad, our emotions are so primal in our body.

我真的相信，情绪其实就是一种信息。

And I really do believe emotions, they're information.

它们的本质就是信息。

That's what they are.

既然身体在给我们传递信息，我们为什么要拒绝接收呢？

Why would we ever want to not get the information our body is giving us?

有时候，事情会以一种惊人的方式突然发生转变。

And sometimes it's almost dramatic what happens in an amazing way.

我想到很多次在治疗室里，人们一开口就忍不住哭起来。

So many people I think about so many times of people in a room for therapy, they start crying.

真不好意思。

I'm so sorry.

你感受得太强烈了，身体才会用眼泪来提醒你：该注意了。

You're feeling something so intensely that your body is producing water from your eyes to get your attention.

这肯定是非常重要的信息。

Like that's, That must be really important information.

我们为什么要说对不起？

Why are we saying sorry?

据我们所知，流泪因情绪而起是人类独有的现象，我可能说错了，但我在斯坦福的一位同事、精神科医生卡尔·戴瑟罗夫提到过，人类是目前已知唯一会为情绪而流泪的物种。

And as far as we know, a uniquely human thing, I could be wrong about this, but a colleague of mine at Stanford and psychiatrist, Carl Dyseroff, talked about this, that humans are the only species that we are aware of that sheds tears for sake of emotion.

对。

Yeah.

其他动物也有泪腺，会分泌一些液体，说白了就是带盐分的水，从眼睛周围流出来，但跟情绪没关系。

Other animals, have lacrimal glands, produce, you know, water, so to speak salty water that comes out of their, their eye region, but, not as it relates to emotions.

我们不这么认为。

We don't think so.

这真是个很好的例子。

So that's a great example.

我甚至想到跟孩子聊过的一些话，我喜欢时不时创造这样的时刻。

Like I even think about a conversation I have had with my kids and I like to just have these moments here and there.

每次我跟人聊起和孩子之间的深入对话，他们总觉得我每次能聊上四十五分钟，其实不是。

Whenever I talk about good conversations with my kids, I think people think I have these forty five minute no.

通常就十秒钟而已。

They're they're usually ten seconds.

我讲一句话。

I say one thing.

孩子就问：我现在能吃点零食吗？

My kids say, can I have a snack now?

我觉得这就算很好的对话了，因为我知道话已经进到他们心里了。

And I think that's a great conversation because I know it gets in there.

你知道吗，眼泪其实传递着特别重要的信息。

Do you know that tears have really important information for us?

我可能会说：啊？

I can be like, what?

你刚说什么？

What'd you say?

我只是在想。

I'm just thinking.

很多人觉得流泪是件坏事。

So many people think tears are bad.

其实眼泪挺神奇的。

Tears are kind of amazing.

这就像我们的身体在提醒我们，要留意一些特别重要的事情。

It's like our body is trying to stop us, and it's like asking us to pay attention to something really powerful.

我觉得这是我们身体特别了不起的一种反应。

I just think it's kind of an amazing thing our body does.

我孩子接着问：我能吃点椒盐卷饼吗？

And my kid goes, Can I have pretzels?

当然可以。

Oh, sure.

我去给你拿。

I'll get you pretzels.

对我来说，这已经赢了。

That, to me is a win.

我就想跟所有人说说这事。

I just want to tell everyone.

我太喜欢了。

I love it.

这绝对是满分。

That is a 10 out of 10.

我到处跟人吹这个。

I'm bragging to people about that.

我会跟人说，我刚经历了一次特别棒的对话，因为我知道这些话正在慢慢起作用——当时孩子在哭，你可能会觉得这没什么用，但其实眼泪真的很了不起。

I'm like, I had the best conversation because I know this is seeping in because in the moment my kid is crying, you think it's going to be helpful when my seven year old is crying tears are amazing.

他们回我：‘烦死了，妈妈。’

They're like, eff you, mom.

谁也不想听这话。

No one wants to hear that.

我的第一反应是跟他们讲眼泪的生理机制。

My reflex would be to tell them, the biology of tears.

不，上节播客里的索贝尔告诉我们，眼泪里含有激素，准确说是信息素，能向周围的人传递信号，我们真的能闻到眼泪的味道。

No, Sobel, who was on the podcast, told us that tears contain hormones that signal to other people, pheromones, excuse me, that literally change the biology of the people We around can actually smell tears.

我们根本没意识到自己在这么做。

We don't realize we're doing it.

你看，我又来了。

See, here I go.

所以你跟孩子说，我跟孩子相处时间够多了，如果你跟他们讲这些，他们只会回你一句：知道了知道了。

So you tell, I realized you tell a kid, I spent enough time with, with kids that if you tell them that they're like, whatever.

但你知道吗？这其实是个很棒的晚餐话题。

But you know, and that's a great conversation around the dinner table.

而且，你孩子肯定会翻白眼。

And again, your kids will roll their eyes.

孩子对什么事都会翻白眼。

That kids roll their eyes about everything.

我觉得孩子翻白眼或者装没听见，其实是他们在说：我这边信息太多了，有点招架不住。

I always think rolling their eyes or stop is kind of a kid's way of saying there's a lot coming at me on my own person.

我需要先把它推开一点，等自己有空了、能掌控的时候，再慢慢消化。

I just need to push it away a little so that on my own time and under my own control, I can take it in.

我们总是把孩子翻白眼这类行为看得太个人化，结果反而陷入权力之争。

We take eye rolls or whatever it is so personally that then we end up getting into a power struggle.

你干嘛翻白眼？

Why are you rolling my eyes?

我们就这样错过了一个机会。

We miss this opportunity.

如果我们什么都不说，孩子其实还是会吸收刚才那些话的。

If we just say nothing, then our kid is going to take in what we just said.

你直接走开就好。

Just walk away.

让整个过程自然发生。

Let the whole process happened.

你知道吗，这就像是老板进来跟你说：哎，这个项目其实没做到最好。

You know, it's kind of like if your boss comes in and says something like, oh, look, that project really wasn't as good as it, you know, could have been.

我真的很需要这些事情尽快搞定。

And I really need these things done.

然后你冲我翻白眼，想想看那感觉多糟。

You're like, oh, and then imagine you're rolling your eyes at me.

要是老板直接转身走了，你大概会想：

If your boss just leaves the room, you probably think.

我确实没做到最好。

I didn't do that as well as I could.

我还是去好好改一改吧。

I'm going to go work on it.

对吧。

Right.

所以我觉得，不接招，是特别重要的一种育儿策略。

So I feel like not taking the bait is a very important parenting tool.

但我觉得，和孩子聊聊情绪，尤其是面对困难时，聊聊我们自己的感受，这些时刻特别重要。

But I think those moments with our kids to talk about emotions and to talk about our own, especially when it comes to struggle.

我经常在想，尤其是孩子还小的时候，我要有意识地引导他们。

One the things I think a lot about, I try to be intentional with my kids, especially when they're younger.

孩子很容易被父母的能力压得喘不过气。

I just think kids are flooded by their parents' capability.

在一个人能力远超你的情况下学习，真的特别难。

And it is so hard to learn in environments where someone's capability is so far beyond your own.

我做饭不太行，但如果真想学做饭，我宁愿跟一个会把蒜炒糊、把西兰花煮过头的人学。

I'm not a good cook, but if I was really learning to cook, I would want to learn from someone from here or there, you know, burnt some garlic or messed up the broccoli.

然后我会想，好吧，下次我试试看能不能做好。

And then I was like, okay, well, guess I could do this next time.

我会对自己说，行，明白了。

I'd be like, okay.

但如果我是跟某个明星大厨学做饭，那差距也太大了，根本没法参考。

But if I'm learning to cook from someone who is whatever celebrity chef, I don't get my, that person's like way too far from me.

我甚至有点感到羞愧。

And I almost feel shame.

所以我常想，这对孩子的情绪有什么影响？尤其是他们小的时候，想想他们一天刚开始的前十分钟——怎么刷牙、怎么上厕所、怎么开水龙头、怎么洗手，全都要学。

So I think about this with our kids and how this relates to emotions where when your kids are younger, especially if you just think about the first ten minutes of their day, like they're trying to figure out maybe how to brush their teeth, how to go to the bathroom, how to turn on the sink, how to wash their hands.

他们总是把衬衫穿反。

They always put their shirt on the wrong way.

袜子也总是穿不上。

They can't get on their socks.

这种事情太多了。

There's so many things.

你一出来，打扮得整整齐齐。

You come out dressed perfectly.

可我连袜子都穿不上，你就只能这样看着我。

And then I can't get on my socks and you go like this.

一，二。

One, two.

在这些时刻，我总觉得自己好像在对孩子说：我做什么都轻而易举。

And kind of in those moments, I always think that's, I'm just kind of saying to my kid, I can do everything easily.

但他们并不了解我们的过去。

And they don't know our history.

他们根本不知道。

They don't know.

我们也是花了五年时间才学会穿袜子的。

We struggled to put on socks for five years too.

我直到上大学还经常把衬衫穿反。

I put on my shirt backward, you know, until college.

他们对这些一无所知。

They don't know that.

所以我想，在这些平静的时刻，正好可以跟他们说：这十字谜题我解不出来。

And so I think again, in these calm moments, have this opportunity to say something like, I cannot finish this crossword puzzle.

或者：我超爱《纽约时报》的那些小游戏。

Or like, love New York times games.

没错。

Right.

现在孩子大了，和他们一起做这些事特别有意思，但今天我连接网络可真够呛。

And it's so fun with my kids now that they're older, But my connections was really hard today.

我真的特别费劲。

I just, I really struggled with it.

我当时就想，唉，我搞不定。

I was like, oh, I can't do it.

我真的搞不定。

I can't do it.

后来我深吸一口气，再试了一次，说不定就说了句‘我试试看’，然后要么成了，要么没成。

And then I took a deep breath and I tried it a little more and, you know, maybe I said, and I did it or I didn't do whatever it is.

这让孩子第一次看到，原来我也会有困难。

And it gives my kid first of it gives my kid an opportunity to just notice that I struggle too.

这又给孩子讲了一个故事，关于一个我特别敬佩的人。

It gives my kid again kind of an arc and a story of, oh, someone I admire so much.

每个孩子都会崇拜自己的父母。

Every kid admires their parents.

他们也经历过困难。

They've had hard times.

现在依然会遇到难关。

They still have hard times.

他们会想办法熬过去。

They work through things.

他们也会把蒜炒糊。

They burn garlic.

他们能自己慢慢把情绪理顺。

They can kind of talk themselves through it.

这种潜移默化的示范，比直接教孩子怎么控制情绪要有力得多。

That is such a more powerful kind of lesson in emotion regulation than teaching your kid kind of directly.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这里我们讨论的并不是孩子的年龄，而是当一个人在任何关系中——无论是工作、恋爱还是育儿——都把自己塑造成完美或近乎完美时，迟早会跌下神坛，因为别人要么在找你的错，要么一旦你犯了错，就会成为你形象上无法忽视的裂痕。

It also seems that here we're not defining the age of the kids, but if one presents themselves as perfect or close to it in any kind of relationship, work, romantic, parenting, etcetera, sooner or later, you're gonna fall from grace because they're either gonna be looking for the mistake or the moment you make a mistake, it's gonna be this fracture in the picture that people had of you.

我得说，我接下来要用的词，可能有些人听了会不爽，甚至，我敢说，会感到被冒犯。

And I have to say, and I think some people might get irritated or even, dare I say triggered, by the language I'm about to use.

但我认为，真正高明的做法是，承认父母和孩子之间确实存在权力差异，然后努力去消解这种权力关系。

But I feel like the real, like, ninja move in all of this is to acknowledge that there are power dynamics between parent and child, but then to try and dissolve the power dynamics.

我这么说，是因为我长期经营一个实验室，这和抚养小孩完全是两码事。

And I say this in the context of having run a lab for a long time, which is very different than raising small children.

你面对的是不断进入实验室的人。

But you have people who are coming into your laboratory.

如果他们是你的研究生或博士后，他们的整个职业生涯都押在你能否教好、带好他们身上。

If they're your graduate student or postdoc, they're staking their whole career on your ability to teach and mentor.

这其中牵涉的分量太重了。

And a lot is at stake.

什么都是不确定的。

Nothing is for certain.

他们可能找不到工作。

They might not get a job.

论文也可能投不中。

The papers might not work out.

所以这里面的压力真的很大。

And so there's just so much tension around it.

作为实验室的负责人，我记得自己当时总觉得：这事儿必须成。

So as a PI, as a principal investigator in her lab, I remember feeling that pressure of like, it's got to work out.

我读博士时遇到的最好的一件事，就是我的第一篇论文拖了好久才被接受。

And one of the best things that ever happened to me as a graduate student was that my first paper took forever to get accepted.

我们差点就录用了，结果最后没成。

And we almost got in and then it didn't get in.

后来终于发表了，从那以后，每一篇论文都感觉轻松多了，毕竟第一篇已经熬得够久。

Then finally it got in such that every paper after that felt like a breeze because it took so damn long the first time.

我这才明白，我的导师也没法凭空变出成果。

I got to see that my advisor couldn't make magic happen.

幸运的是，科学工作的本来面貌就是这样。

And fortunately, that's the way the scientific process is supposed to work.

我常想到这一点，尤其是在为人父母的语境下——如果你被看作无所不能，我们经常听到有人说：‘我觉得我爸爸就是超人。’

And I think about this in the context of parenting, if you're seen as invincible, we hear about this, like people say, I thought my dad was Superman.

我觉得我妈妈就是超人，你知道的？

I thought my mom was Superwoman, you know?

但你可以想象，当孩子发现父母其实也有能力不足、情绪不稳这些缺点时，该有多失望。

And then, but you can imagine how disappointing it must be when they discover anything about a lack of capacity or a break in emotional stability, etcetera.

那一个人该怎么展现自己既有力量，又不是那种压迫性的强大呢？

So how does one present themselves as both powerful in the positive sense of the word?

是的。

Yeah.

‘强大’这个词真够棘手的，但我说的是积极意义上的强大——既有能力，也敢于承认自己会犯错。

Such a, such a thorny word, but powerful in the positive sense of the word, but human and vulnerable to making mistakes.

是的。

Yeah.

要以一种方式，不放弃你和孩子之间那种本质的权力关系，让孩子们不至于觉得他们得反过来管着你。

In a way that you don't give up the essential, let's just call it what it is, a power dynamic with your kids so that the kid then doesn't feel they have to parent you.

我特别喜欢这个话题，因为它太有意思了。

I love this topic because it's so interesting.

现在正好是Good Inside的年度评估季，毕竟我也是这家公司的CEO。

Right now, it's kind of review season at Good Inside because I also am the CEO of a company.

我觉得，我跟孩子谈的那些育儿理念，和我带团队时用的原则，其实完全是一回事。

And to me, the things I talk about with parenting and my kids, and for other people parenting their kids, they are the exact same principles, exact as leading a team.

所以每到评估季，想到我们怎么收反馈、怎么来回沟通，就觉得这把大家都连在了一起，我来跟你解释一下。

And so when I think about review season and the way we get feedback and the right and back and forth, it brings us all together and I'll explain.

前几天我对孩子们说，我特别喜欢立新年目标。

So the other day I said to my kids, I love resolutions.

我真的挺喜欢立目标的。

I actually do love resolutions.

对吧？

Right?

因为我特别喜欢这种机会，问一句：有一件小事是什么？

Because I love just the opportunity to say, what is one small thing?

我觉得，我真的很看重这个。

I'm like, I value.

我会提醒自己，就像我对孩子们说的那样：你现在先想一件小事，就一件。

And I'm going to hold myself accountable to do what I said to my kids was, I want you to come up with one thing, just one thing for now.

这件事得是实际可行的，是我真能做到的。

And it has to be something like manageable and real that I could do.

能让我成为更好的妈妈。

Would really make me a better mom to you.

你问了你的孩子。

You asked your kids.

我问了。

I asked

我问了孩子们这个问题。

my kids this.

我其实经常问孩子们这个问题。

I actually asked my kids this relatively frequently.

这就像是个复盘。

It's like a review.

对吧？

Right?

因为我平时在工作中也总这么做。

Because it's something I do at work all the time.

在公司里，我手下的人常常什么也不说，所以我就会说：

And what I say at work is because often my direct reports say nothing.

我想告诉你一件事。

I said, I just want to tell you something.

今天结束前，我需要你告诉我一件事。

I need one thing from you by the end of the day.

我需要这个，因为我知道自己容易急躁。

I need it because like, know, I know I can get hot.

我知道我有时候反应会有点快。

I know I can get a little reactive.

对。

Right.

我知道我总是忙个不停。

I know I'm always go, go, go.

可能确实有个时候，我得停下来喘口气。

And there probably is a moment that, you know, I need to pause.

我明白，我确实有不少问题。

I know, I know I have a lot of issues.

所以如果你不告诉我一件事，我就不太信你。

So if you don't tell me one thing, I don't trust you as much.

那时候我跟孩子们发生的事是这样的。

So here's what happened with my kids at that point.

只有两个孩子。

It was only two of them.

就在前几天刚发生的事。

It just happened the other day.

我儿子，我七岁的儿子，他说：妈妈，有时候你在家忙工作，我想引起你注意，你就这样——

My son says, my seven year old son, sometimes when you're trying to get some work done at home, and I want to get your attention for something, this is what you do, mom.

一分钟，一分钟，又一分钟，可你还是不理我。

One minute, one minute, one minute, and then you still don't give me.

他可真会算时间。

He's clocked.

他可真会算时间。

He's clocked.

你不如直接说五分钟，然后专心陪我。

I'd rather you tell me five minutes and then give me your full attention.

我当时就想，这建议真不错。

That's literally what I I was just like, that is a really good suggestion.

我真需要听到这话。

And I really needed to hear that.

我可以做到。

I can do that.

这是几天前的事。

This is a couple days ago.

好的。

Okay.

我得承认，两天前。

I have to admit, two days ago.

他想给我看点东西。

He was trying to show me something.

他就说：你又这样了。

He just goes, you're doing it.

你根本没专心听我说。

You're not really giving me your attention.

我说：你说得对。

And I said, you're right.

谢谢。

Thank you.

改变真的不容易。

Change is hard.

我其实真需要大概两分钟。

I actually do need about two minutes.

这样可以吗？

Is that okay?

然后我就把电脑合上，因为有时候我会看他，盯着他看，他就说，好。

And then I'll put my computer down because I'll sometimes look at him and like, kind of look at, you know, and he goes, okay.

那场面真的很动人。

It was kind of it was so beautiful.

我女儿晚上说，当你给人们这样的机会时，他们会对你特别慷慨，这真的很有趣。

My daughter said at night, she goes, It's so interesting when you give people this opportunity, how generous they can be with you.

我觉得在工作和家里都是这样。

I think it's been true at work and home.

我听见她说，到了晚上该睡觉的时候，她总想再做一两件事。

I heard her go, I know when it's my bedtime at night, I always want to do one or two extra things.

我懂。

I know.

我也是这样。

I always have

非得喝杯水不可。

to get my water.

我这个人就是这样。

It's just how I am.

她就是这么说的。

That's what she said.

然后你就会听到催促的声音，说：快点，该睡觉了。

And you get this rushing voice, and you go, come on, it's bedtime.

那几乎是我在入睡前听到的最后一句话。

And that's like the last voice I hear before bed.

我真的不喜欢那个声音。

And I really don't like that voice.

所以你能不能明白，我总是得做那两三件额外的事，别用那种语气跟我说？

And so can you just know that I always need to do those one or two extra things and not use that voice?

而且我又说了，你知道吗？

And again, I said, you know what?

我不希望听到那个声音作为我睡前的最后一句话。

I wouldn't want to hear that as the last voice.

你知道，尤其是晚上，这其实有点多余。

You know, and I think at night, especially, it's a little digression.

我总觉得自己在赶时间。

I want I always feel like I'm in a rush.

我也不太清楚。

I don't know.

多花两分钟陪陪孩子，又有什么关系呢？

Don't know an extra two minutes with my kids.

我的孩子正在长大。

Like my kids are getting older.

他们在我家也没多久了。

They're not even in my house for that much longer.

我得提醒自己，别那么赶时间。

I just have to remind myself, I'm not in a rush.

这才是我最该花时间做的事。

Like this is the best use of my time.

所以我就说了，这一点我确实做得不错。

And so I said, and that one I've been really good at.

那我们该怎么让孩子知道，大人也会犯错呢？

And so how do we show our kids that we're fallible?

一个办法就是主动征求他们的意见，尤其是孩子大了以后。

One way is actually like asking for feedback, especially when you have older kids.

一旦孩子到了青春期，这绝对是改变局面最关键的一件事。

When you have a teenager, this is the number one thing that can change things around.

你知道我在想什么吗？

You know what I'm thinking about?

当个青少年真不容易。

It's hard to be a teen.

我肯定不是个完美的青少年父母。

I'm definitely not a perfect parent of a teen.

我猜你有一大堆想法，但眼下，你能说一件我能做的、让你觉得我更像个好父母的事吗？

I'm sure you have a long list, but for right now, can you name one thing that I could do that would make me a better parent to you?

我想把这事继续下去，因为很多青少年的父母都会说，我孩子给我提的要求太离谱了。

And I want to follow this through because what a lot of teens will do, our parents will say, my teenager tells me something ridiculous.

他们会说，你老让我晚上九点或十点把手机拿出去充电，这事你能不能改改？

They'll say, well, you know how you make me charge my phone at nine or 10PM out of the room?

你干脆让我把手机带床上睡，虽然吧，我可能就是不打算这么做。

You could let me sleep with my phone, which maybe is like, I'm just not going to do that.

或者他们会说，你知道你还能怎么改吗？

Or they'll say, you know what you could do?

你可以每周给我一千块当零花钱。

You could give me a thousand dollars every week for an allowance.

对吧？

Right?

所以父母会说，我孩子根本当不了真。

And so parents will say my kid doesn't take it seriously.

这时候，我觉得最重要的一项生活技能——不管是管教孩子、处理友情，还是别的什么——都是要分清表面的话和背后真正的需求、感受或恐惧，别光回应字面意思，要往深处看。

This is where like, to me, one of the most important life skills, parenting management, friendships, it doesn't matter is differentiating someone's words on the surface from their needs or their feelings or their fears, whatever it is underneath, and not responding to the words, but kind of cutting under them.

就拿手机这事来说吧。

Let's even say I can said the phone thing.

你要是能随时带着手机，到底好在哪儿？

What would be so great about having your phone?

你帮我想明白一下。

Just help me understand it.

我心里清楚，这事儿我肯定不会答应，但我们常常忘了，就算不满足对方的要求，也该尊重他们想让你理解为什么这么想要的权利。

I know in my head, I'm never going to do it, but we don't realize just because we're not going to do something someone asks, it doesn't mean we don't owe that person the right to try to understand why they want it.

对吧？

Right?

所以我可能会先问几个问题。

So I might just ask questions.

最后可能还是会说：其实我听懂你讲的意思了。

It might probably end with, look, I actually hear what you're saying.

你所有的朋友都刷Instagram到半夜。

All of your friends are on Instagram until midnight.

听起来你确实错过了不少对话。

It sounds like you legitimately do miss out on conversations.

等你第二天去上学的时候，就觉得完全跟不上了。

By the time you get school, you feel out of them.

我是认真的。

Like, I'm not even joking.

我觉得要是我跟你一样大，我肯定觉得这简直是最糟糕的事了。

I feel like if I was your age, I'd be like, that's like basically the worst thing ever.

我相信你。

I believe you.

晚上某个时间之后才允许用手机，这是我绝对不能让步的原则。

Having your phone after X time, it's just one of my non negotiables.

正是因为太爱你了，我才觉得有责任保护你。

It's actually just because I love you so much that I feel like my job is to protect you.

我在想，是不是还有别的办法能解决这个问题。

I wonder if there is some other way that we can figure that out.

或者我孩子会说，一千美元。

Or my kid says a thousand dollars.

我可能会问，你要拿这一千美元做什么？

I might say, what would you do with a thousand dollars?

哦，你是想多去几场演唱会？

Oh, you'd go, oh, you want to go to more concerts?

哦，你朋友的零花钱都更多。

Oh, your friends all get more allowance.

再跟我说说。

Tell me more.

不管孩子跟你怎么说，里面都有信息。

No matter what your kid says to you, there's information.

所以我觉得，反馈就是其中之一。

So I think feedback is one.

我觉得修复关系是另一种方式。

I think repair is another way.

修复关系是最值得你掌握的相处策略。

Repair is the most important relationship strategy to get good at.

我希望每个人都能听出这句话里的双重含义，明白它真正的意思。

And I just hope everyone hears the duality in that and realizes what that means.

因为如果你想把修复关系做好，就难免会犯错。

Because if you're going to get good at repair, you have to mess up.

只有先搞砸了，才谈得上修复。

The only way to repair is to mess up.

所以当我告诉你得学会修复关系时，其实我是在说，你必须先完成第一步——冲孩子大喊大叫。

And so if I'm telling you get good at repair, I am telling you, you have to accomplish step one, which is yelling at your kid.

这是不可避免的，你迟早都会这么做。

Have to, and you're going to do it anyway.

我也会这么做。

I do it.

但如果你事后告诉自己：等等，我正在学着修复关系。

But if you then tell yourself, wait, I'm getting good at repair.

第一步就是犯错。

Step one is messing up.

我这次做得真到位。

I crushed it.

太棒了。

Amazing.

我已经走了一半的路了。

I'm half the way there.

当你去修复关系的时候，也就是你承担责任的时候，你可以说：对不起，我也像你一样大喊大叫了。

Then when you repair, which is when you take ownership, hey, I'm sorry, I yelled just like you.

我在学会控制自己的情绪。

I'm managing my emotions.

情绪这东西真的很复杂。

Emotions are really tricky.

情绪真的很难掌控。

Emotions are really hard.

你知道吗？

And do you know what?

虽然你将来成年后，相比大多数人会更有优势，因为你从小就在学怎么调节情绪，但就算到了我这个年纪，你依然得不断练习。

Even though you're going to have a leg up on this compared to most people when they're adults, because you're learning how to regulate emotions, you're still gonna be practicing that when you're my age.

这是我自己的责任，得我自己去改进。

That is my responsibility to work on.

这并不是你的错，而且我真的很爱你。

It's not your fault, and I love you.

太有力量了。

So powerful.

我先休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

AG1是一种含有维生素、矿物质、益生菌，还添加了益生元和适应原的营养饮品。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.

AG1的设计是为了满足你日常所需的全部基础营养，而且味道很好。

AG1 is designed to cover all of your foundational nutritional needs, and it tastes great.

我从2012年就开始喝AG1了，那时候我的补充剂预算非常紧张。

Now, I've been drinking AG1 since 2012, and I started doing that at a time when my budget for supplements was really limited.

那时候我手头的钱只够买一种补充剂，我很庆幸自己选了AG1。

In fact, I only had enough money back then to purchase one supplement, and I'm so glad that I made that supplement AG1.

虽然我一直尽量吃天然、少加工的食物，但光靠饮食很难摄取足够的水果、蔬菜、维生素、矿物质、微量营养素和适应原。

The reason for that is even though I strive to eat most of my foods from whole foods and minimally processed foods, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits, vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone.

我必须确保这些营养充足，这样才能整天保持精力，晚上睡得好，免疫力也维持在良好状态。

And I need to do that in order to ensure that I have enough energy throughout the day, I sleep well at night, and keep my immune system strong.

但每天服用AG1后，我发现自己的整体健康状况——包括身体、心理，以及认知和体能表现——都有明显提升。

But when I take AG1 daily, I find that all aspects of my health, my physical health, my mental health, and my performance, both cognitive and physical are better.

这一点我深有体会，因为曾经有段时间我没坚持服用，身体的差异真的非常明显。

I know that because I've had lapses when I didn't take AG1 and I certainly felt the difference.

如果你也想试试AG1，可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman，领取专属优惠。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

仅限今年一月，AG1会免费赠送10份便携装，外加一整年的维生素D3和K2补充剂。

For this month only January 2025, AG1 is giving away 10 free travel packs and a year supply of vitamin D3K2.

再次提醒，访问drinkag1.com/huberman，即可领取这10份免费便携装和一整年的维生素D3K2。

Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the 10 free travel packs and a year supply of vitamin D3K2.

今天的节目还要感谢Joovvv的支持。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovvv.

Joovvv生产的是医用级红光治疗设备。

Joovvvv makes medical grade red light therapy devices.

我无论是在家还是出门旅行，都会用这款Joovvv手持设备。

And I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.

如果你想试试Joovv，可以访问joovv.com/huberman。

If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled joovv.com/huberman.

Joovv正在为所有《休伯曼实验室》的听众提供专属折扣，部分产品最高可减400美元。

Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off select Joovv products.

再次提醒，访问joovv.com/huberman，就能享受最高400美元的优惠。

Again, that's Joovv, joovv.com/huberman to get up to $400 off.

我特别特别喜欢这种主动提出请求的做法。

I love, love, love this thing about asking for a request.

这跟要反馈不一样，反馈很容易变成一份全是缺点的清单，而请求关注的是怎么才能做得更好。

It's different than asking for feedback, which could quickly lead to a list of all the things that one does wrong as opposed to a request for how one could do better.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我觉得这里面有个很重要的区别。

So I think there's an important distinction there.

然后，父母、上司，或者任何关系中的人，可能都需要问自己一个问题：这个请求背后真正想表达的是什么？

And then it seems that the question that, the parent or who knows the boss or whatever, maybe it's with a romantic partner needs to ask themselves is, what is this request really about?

那背后真正的原因是什么？

Like what's underneath it?

我 basically 就是复述一下你刚才说的意思。

I'm just paraphrasing essentially what you said.

那它到底想表达什么？

And what's it really about?

是想要更多的自由，还是想跟别人多些联系？

Is it a request for more autonomy, for more social connection with other people?

当你仔细想想，比如你提到的那个孩子晚上想多玩会儿手机的例子，其实根本不是关于你和他之间的关系。

And then one starts to realize it, certainly in this example that you gave of a child asking for more time with their phone late at night, is that it actually has nothing to do with your relationship to them.

而是关于他和朋友之间的关系。

It's really about their relationship to their friends.

是的。

Yeah.

有可能。

Could be.

而且他们可能会觉得错过了什么。

And the fact that they might feel as if they're missing out.

对。

Yeah.

这就引出另一个问题：如果你作为父母、伴侣或上司，一直把手机放在身边，直到午夜，那会怎样？

And, that leads me to another question, which is what if you, the parent, partner, boss, etcetera, keep your phone close to you until midnight.

他们心里是清楚的。

And they know that.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为最糟糕的一句话就是：‘我说了算，你照做就行，别学我。’

So one of the worst things that I believe anyone can say is, you know, do as I say, not as I do.

这分明就是一种傲慢的态度——你得听我的，因为我这么说，但我自己才不这么做，因为我懒得。

It's just such an, a, like, blatantly arrogant stance of you're supposed to do what I say because I say so, but I'm not going to do it because I don't want to.

但在亲子关系或上下级关系中，确实常有这种情况：你要求别人做某事，自己却并不做，或者不再做，或者故意不做。

And yet there are times, in parent child relationships or boss employee relationships, where you're telling somebody to do something and you yourself are not going to do it or no longer do it or choose not to do it.

其实，你没必要这么做。

In reality, you don't have to.

也许你没必要做，或者不该做，是有道理的。

And maybe there's a good reason why you don't or don't have to.

这就是为什么我用‘权力关系’这个词，每次一说，大家都会叹气：‘哎呀，又来了。’

That's the nature of that's why I use these words, power dynamics, which which everyone hears and goes, oh, boy, here we go.

但这确实是个权力关系的问题。

But but it is an issue of power dynamics.

你比孩子更有话语权。

You have more power than the than the kid.

所以你这么做，其实是给了孩子表达他们想要更多自主权的机会。

So what you're doing is you're giving the kid power to express where they want more agency.

我更喜欢用‘自主权’这个词，而不是‘权力’。

I like the word maybe agency more than power.

对。

Yeah.

你有没有允许你儿子在晚上更晚的时候用手机？

Did you grant your son the, the right to use his phone later into the evening?

我儿子，我儿子

My son, my son

我并不是想打探你的私事

had Not to pry into your personal

我儿子没问过我这件事。

My son did not ask me that.

他知道我们的手机规定是不能商量的。

And he knows that our phone rules are non negotiable.

不，我不是想打探你们家的事。

No, I didn't mean to pry into your family.

但要是真有这条规矩，你根本就不会答应他。

No, but that kid, if that's a rule, you would never give it to them.

但我觉得很多时候，我们又绕回到权力这个问题上了。

But I think so many times, and then we'll go back to power.