基于科学的冥想工具，改善你的大脑与健康 | 理查德·戴维森博士

我们只是能感受到它。

We we just see it.

我们能感觉到，而且它非常强大。

We can feel it, and it's super powerful.

是的。

Yeah.

但从表演艺术或喜剧艺术的角度来看呢。

And that's from the perspective of, you know, performing arts or comedic arts.

但对于想要练习冥想的人，你认为在开始冥想前，问自己一个问题是否有用：我此刻是在自我监控的状态中，还是更自由、更当下地去感受我正在经历的一切，而不去质疑它？

But for people who want to approach meditation, would it do you think it's useful at all to ask themselves before they go into the meditation, you know, are they in a they in a mode of self monitoring, or are they in a kind of or are they more feeling more free, more present to just whatever their it is they're experiencing it experiencing, not questioning it.

并且问他们是否

And asking them for

你认为这样有助于从冥想练习中获得最大收益吗？

Do you think it's useful in order to get the most out of a meditation practice?

我想我间接想表达的是，大多数冥想练习都涉及从一种状态转向另一种状态，比如你可能在走路，或者睁着眼睛，但通常人们要么坐着，要么躺着，闭上眼睛，开始专注于呼吸，试图所谓地‘进入当下’。

I guess what I'm getting at indirectly here is most meditation practices involve shifting from doing one thing to maybe you're walking, maybe you're open eyes, but typically I think people either sit or lie down, close eyes, and start focusing on their breathing and try and quote unquote get present.

有什么吗——

Is there anything-

我最常做的那种练习其实是睁着眼睛做的。

Well, the kind of practice that I most often do is actually with eyes open.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yeah.

哦，那你就跟我们说说吧。

Oh, well, then just tell us about that.

我们不妨用有氧运动来打个比方。

What would be a good Let's use the parallel to cardio again.

如果一个人身体很差，想变得健康，我会说第一件事是每天走两次二十分钟的步。

Would say if somebody is really out of shape and wants to get in shape, I would say the first thing is take two twenty minute walks a day.

然后我们可以讨论骑健身车，再可能做一些力量训练。

And then we could talk about getting on an exercise bike, and then maybe doing some resistance.

你会逐步增加一些内容，对吧？

You start layering things in, right?

但相当于每天两次二十分钟散步的冥想方式是什么呢？

But what would be the equivalent of the two twenty minute walks a

天。所以这是关于方法的问题，我想。

day So for this is the protocol question, I guess.

我会说，最重要的是从小处开始，我们通常会问一个人：你认为每天最少能坚持多少时间的冥想？并连续三十天都做到。

I would say it's really important to start modestly, and we often will ask a person, what's the minimum amount of meditation that you think you can commit to every single day, and do it for thirty days consistently?

五分钟。

Five minutes.

完美。

Perfect.

不管这个数字是多少，都很完美。

Whatever that number is, perfect.

就从这个开始。

Start with that.

接下来的问题是，你是否习惯以静坐的形式进行练习，还是更喜欢在走路时，或在进行其他非认知负荷高的活动时进行？

And then the next question is, are you comfortable doing it formally as a seated practice, or would you prefer to do it while you're walking or while you're doing another non cognitively demanding activity?

比如通勤时。

It could be commuting.

比如洗碗时。

It could be washing the dishes.

我们日常生活中有很多这样的活动，你完全可以有意识地在做这些事的同时，用这种方式来运用你的思维。

There are lots of those kind of activities that we often do on a daily basis that you can actually intentionally use your mind in this way while you're also doing those activities.

顺便说一下，我们已经有非常可靠的数据表明，至少对于初学者来说，无论是采用正式的冥想练习，还是在活动中进行冥想，其益处都是完全相当的。

And by the way, we've shown, we actually have really good data on this, that at least for beginning meditators, it doesn't matter if you're doing it as a formal meditation practice or as an active practice, the benefits are absolutely comparable.

那这些益处是什么？

And what are those benefits?

如果你坚持三十天，每天只做五分钟，你会明显看到抑郁、焦虑和压力症状的显著减轻。

So if you do it for thirty days and you do it just five minutes a day, you will see a significant reduction in symptoms of depression, symptoms of anxiety, and symptoms of stress.

我们在多项随机对照试验中反复验证过这一点。

We've shown that repeatedly in randomized controlled trials.

你会在幸福感或繁荣度的指标上看到提升，我们可以讨论这些指标具体意味着什么。

You'll see an increase on measures of well-being or flourishing, and we can talk about what those actually mean.

即使只进行这种程度的练习，你也能看到IL-6的降低。

You can even see, just with this amount of practice, a reduction in IL-six.

IL-6是一种重要的促炎细胞因子，与全身性炎症密切相关。

IL-six is a pro inflammatory cytokine that is important in systemic inflammation.

仅通过每天五分钟、持续二十八天的极小量练习，你就能显著降低IL-6水平。

And with just this minimal amount of practice you see a significant reduction in IL-six over the course of twenty eight days, five minutes a day.

我们甚至观察到微生物组的变化，以及仅靠这种极小量练习就带来的大脑变化。

We've actually seen changes in the microbiome, and we've seen changes in the brain with just this minimal amount of practice.

但关键在于，你要每天都坚持练习。

But the important point is that you're doing it every day.

当人们问我，如果刚开始练习，哪种冥想形式是最好的，我会说，最好的冥想形式就是你真正会去做的那种。

When people ask me what's the best form of meditation that they should do if they're just beginning, I say the best form of meditation you can possibly do is the form of meditation that you actually do.

所以，找出适合你的冥想方式，然后坚持下去。

So figure out what that form of meditation is, and then stick to it.

每天都要做。

Do it every single day.

我太喜欢这个了。

I love this.

我实际上要挑战我们播客的听众，坚持每天五分钟，持续三十天。

I I actually am going to challenge our podcast audience to five minutes a day for thirty days.

我会在社交媒体上发布一些内容。

I'll put something out on social media.

罗布，请提醒我。

Rob, please remind me.

在社交媒体上发布一个挑战，要求大家每天五分钟，持续三十天，因为你描述的这些都具有显著的健康效果。

Put something out on social media to do five minutes a day for thirty days, because what you describe are significant health effects.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, totally.

正如你所描述的，这让我想起了神经可塑性中的一组实验。

And as you describe them, it made me remember this set of experiments from neuroplasticity.

我可以分享这些吗？

Do you mind if I share these, please?

因为在我们进入这些方法之前，我有一个理论与实践相结合的问题。

Because I have a, this is a theoreticalpractical question as we move into these protocols.

但在那之前，我们应该怎么称呼这个方法呢？

But before we do that, what should we call this protocol?

这是里奇·戴维森-

It's the Richie Davidson-

每天五分钟。

Five minutes a day.

每天五分钟。

Five minutes a day.

里奇的五分法。

Richie's five.

这是里奇的五分冥想法。

It's the Richie's five meditation.

我打算从这个开始。

I'm gonna start that.

稍后我会分享我一直在做的事情，但那根本不是重点。

Later, I'll share what I've been doing, but it's not even that.

我每天醒来后会做十次呼吸。

I've been doing 10 breaths upon waking.

在下床之前做十次呼吸。

10 breaths before I get out of bed.

我想，如果我能在下床前专注地做十次呼吸，一整天都会更顺利，事实也确实如此。

I'm like, if I can just do 10 breaths of focused meditation before I get out of bed, the whole day will go better, and it and it tends to.

神经可塑性研究中有一系列惊人的发现，但大多数人不谈这些，因为这对神经科学家来说很不方便。

There's this wild set of findings in the neuroplasticity research that most people don't talk about because it's very inconvenient for neuroscientists.

我们都熟悉富集环境实验，就是给大鼠、小鼠或猴子提供大量玩具。

We're all familiar with the enriched environment thing, where you give rats a bunch of toys or mice a bunch of toys or monkey monkeys a bunch of toys.

人们认为，如果给孩子提供大量玩具或让他们听莫扎特，他们的大脑就会发育得更好，会看到更多的物理连接，认知能力也会提升，等等。

And the idea would be if you give kids a bunch of toys or listening to Mozart that their brains will develop more, you see more physical connections, you see improved cognition, etcetera, etcetera.

加州大学尔湾分校的一个非常聪明的人，罗恩·弗罗斯廷，做了一个实验，他说，也许这一切都搞反了。

A really smart guy down at University of California Irvine, Ron Frosting, did an experiment where he said, maybe this is all backwards.

也许它们生活的普通笼子，没有这些玩具，其实是一种剥夺性环境。

Maybe the normal cages they live in without all these toys are just deprived environments.

结果发现，情况很可能就是这样。

And it turns out that's probably the case.

所以所有这些丰富环境的研究，并不是说它们是胡扯，而是实验条件太过贫瘠，导致大多数动物在某种方式上处于剥夺状态，当你给它们提供原本自然需要的东西时，突然间就看到了更多的神经连接等等。

So all this enriched environment stuff, it's not that it's BS, it's just that the experimental conditions were so deprived that what you had was most animals just deprived in a certain way, then you give them what they needed naturally, and all of a sudden you saw more connections, etcetera.

如果我们把这个观点应用到冥想上，冥想我们通常认为是一种丰富的心理环境。

If we apply that to meditation, something that we think of as kind of an enriched mental environment.

好吧，我现在要进行这个练习。

Okay, I'm gonna now do this exercise.

我打算每天做五分钟、十分钟或二十分钟。

I'm gonna do five minutes a day or ten or twenty.

我们把它看作是一种额外的锻炼，但骑跑步机、做力量训练，其实我们过去只是种地、打水、做些日常活动。

We think of it as kind of adding exercise, but riding a treadmill, doing resistance training I mean, we used to just farm and go get water and do things.

所以某种程度上，所有这些都是一种对所谓剥夺性环境的替代。

So in some sense, all of that is a replacement for a quote unquote deprived environment.

没错。

Exactly.

那么，你所描述的这种现象，是否可能并不是人类逐渐发展出来的，而是人类体验中原本就核心存在、大脑所需要的，只是随着技术的发展和生活的忙碌，我们逐渐远离了它？

So is it possible that what you're describing is not something that people developed over time, but rather something that was core to our experience as humans and that the brain needed, but that with the advent of technologies and busyness or whatever we've gotten away from.

因此，当你谈到每天进行五到二十分钟的冥想并看到这些健康效益时，我们实际上只是在重新补回原本就该存在的东西。

And so when you talk about doing five or ten or twenty minutes of meditation a day and seeing all these health effects, what we're doing is we're actually just putting back what needed to be there in the first place.

这就像你多睡了三十分钟，因为两千年前根本还没有闹钟这种东西。

This is like the equivalent of you getting your thirty minutes more sleep because alarm clocks weren't really a thing two thousand years ago.

这说得通吗？

Does that make sense?

这有道理，但你知道，我认为这其中确实有几分真理，但我也觉得我们还应该就此展开更多讨论和对话。

It makes sense, but you know, and I think that there's an element of truth to it, but I also think that there's some additional discussion that we should have about it and dialogue.

首先，这些实践已经存在了两千五百年以上。

So first of all, these practices have been around for two thousand five hundred years or more.

这些实践并不是现代才发明出来，用以应对人类与自然世界之间这种明显属于现代的分离现象。

It's not like they've been invented in the modern era to deal with the separation that has occurred between humans and the natural world that is of distinctly modern kind of invention.

所以，这是第一点。

So that's one thing.

第二点是，我同意你的看法，我们所讨论的这些实践所带来的人格特质，确实有多种途径可以达到。

The second thing is that yes, I agree with you that the characteristics that we're talking about as traits that are outcomes of these practices, there are many ways to get there.

而且很可能存在一些不需要冥想的自然方式也能达成这些状态。

And there are probably natural ways to get there that don't require meditation.

事实上，在我们早期的研究中，我们曾采访过印度达兰萨拉的一些修行者，他们是达赖喇嘛推荐给我们的，已经闭关修行了三十年。

In fact, in our early days we interviewed these practitioners around Dharamsala India who were practitioners that the Dalai Lama referred us to who were spending thirty years in retreat.

他们被称为隐士僧人，你需要徒步三小时才能找到他们的山洞。

They're called hermit monks and you have to hike for three hours to find their cave.

我们采访了这些人。

And we interviewed these people.

他们告诉我们：‘我需要冥想，但很多人天生就具备这些品质。’

They told us, well, I need to meditate but many others are just born or they're just naturally have these qualities.

他们不需要像我这样频繁地冥想。

They don't need to meditate as much as me.

我只是个普通的贫穷僧人，真的需要这样做，因为我觉得自己比那些人逊色。

I'm just a simple poor monk who really needs to do this because I'm inferior to those people, if you will.

这既是一种谦逊，也可能确实有道理。

And it's kind of modesty but also there may be some truth to that.

所以我认为这是真实的，但我也认为像善良这样的品质——

And so I think that that is real but I also think that the qualities like for example, kindness.

我相信，这正是我与同事科尔特兰·达尔合著的新书《天生茁壮》的主题，像善良这样的品质是与生俱来的。

I believe, and this is the subject of this new book that I wrote with my colleague Cortland Dahl, Born to Flourish, qualities like kindness are innate.

它们是我们与生俱来的禀赋的一部分。

They are part of our innate repertoire.

但要让这些品质得以展现，就需要培育。

But in order for them to be expressed they require nurturing.

这与科学家谈论语言的方式非常相似。

And it's very similar to the way scientists talk about language.

语言是天生的，我认为大多数科学家都会同意这一点，但我们知道有一些案例研究，比如在野外长大的野孩子，他们并没有发展出正常的语言能力。

Language is innate, I think most scientists would agree with that, but we know that there have been case studies, for example, of feral children who were raised in the wild and they don't develop normal language.

因此，要使语言正常发展，需要某种形式的培养。

So in order for the language to develop normally it requires nurturing of some kind.

善良也是如此，它需要被培养才能得以表达。

And kindness is the same thing, it requires nurturing in order for it to be expressed.

同样，我们在冥想中培养的其他品质，我认为这些品质也是天生的，但需要培养。

And similarly for other qualities that we're cultivating when we meditate, I think those qualities are innate, but they require nurturing.

在某些情况下，我认为要让这些品质达到高水平，可能需要有意识的培养。

And in certain cases, I think that in order for those qualities to really be expressed at high levels, if you will, intentional nurturing may be required.

对于绝大多数人来说，可能有一些统计上极为罕见的人，从一开始就具备这样的特质，无论出于什么原因。

For at least the vast majority of people, there may be statistically very rare people who emerge who are like this from the start for whatever reason.

但对于大多数人来说，我认为这种培养是重要的。

But for most of us, I think this kind of nurturing is important.

正如你们许多人所知，我已经服用AG1将近十五年了。

As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly fifteen years now.

我早在2012年就发现了它，那时我还没开始做播客，但从那以后我每天都服用。

I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.

我开始服用AG1的原因，以及我至今仍在服用的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1是市场上质量最高、成分最全面的基础营养补充剂。

The reason I started taking it and the reason I still take it is because AG1 is to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原融合在单一勺子中，易于饮用，味道也很好。

It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink and it tastes great.

它的设计旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量水平。

It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy.

它通过帮助填补你日常营养中可能存在的缺口来实现这一点。

And it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition.

当然，每个人都应该努力食用营养丰富的天然食物。

Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods.

我每天确实都这么做，但人们经常问我，如果你只能选一种补充剂，你会选哪一种？

I certainly do that every day, but I'm often asked if you could take just one supplement, what would that supplement be?

我的答案始终是AG1，因为它对支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现至关重要。

And my answer is always AG1 because it has just been oh, so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance.

我通过自己使用AG1的经验了解到这一点，也不断听到其他每天使用AG1的人有同样的感受。

I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily.

如果你想尝试AG1，可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman获取特别优惠。

If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

限时优惠：订阅AG1，即可免费获得六份旅行装AG1和一瓶维生素D3K2。

For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription.

再次提醒，访问drinkag1.com/huberman，订阅即可免费获得六份旅行装AG1和一瓶维生素D3K2。

Again, that's drink AG1 with the numeral 1.com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription.

你认为为什么这么多人难以坚持冥想练习呢？

Why do you think it is that so many people find it challenging to maintain a meditation practice?

我的意思是，每天五分钟根本算不了什么。

I mean, five minutes a day is nothing.

每天十分钟，即使对最忙碌的人来说也微不足道。

Ten minutes a day is barely anything, even for the very busiest of person.

而你所描述的积极效果，我们还可以加上减轻压力、焦虑，降低静息心率，提升幸福感等等。

And the positive effects that you describe, and we could also layer it in reduced stress, anxiety, lower resting heart rate, increase feelings of well-being, and on and on.

我的意思是，现在有太多出色的研究了，包括像你说的双盲试验。

Mean, there are just so many great studies now, including, like you said, double blind trials.

我的意思是，这太惊人了。

I mean, it's incredible.

那为什么你觉得人们很难坚持这种练习，就是说：好吧，你知道吗？

So why do you think it's so hard for people to maintain this practice of just saying, okay, you know what?

我要进入一种非典型的状态。

I'm gonna just go into this atypical state.

我的环境中没有任何刺激物。

It's not being stimulated by anything in my environment.

我必须靠自己内在完成。

I have to do this internally.

这方面的锻炼并没有健身房可以去。

There there aren't gyms to go to for this.

我的意思是，有呼吸训练课程之类的东西，但人们通常坚持不下去。

I mean, there are things there are breath work classes and things like that, but people don't tend to stick to it.

这就是挑战。

That's the challenge.

所以我有一个关于这个问题的理论，现在分享一下。

So I do have a theory about it, which I'll share.

但在那之前，我想用刷牙来打个比方。

But before I do that, let me just say that I often use the analogy of brushing our teeth.

当人类最初在这个星球上进化时，没有人会刷牙。

When humans first evolved on this planet, none of us were brushing our teeth.

然而，相当大一部分人类已经学会了每天刷牙。

And somehow, a very large swath of humanity has learned to brush their teeth every day.

这并不是我们基因的一部分。

It's not part of our genome.

我认为大多数人刷牙是因为不想口气不好。

I think most people brush their teeth so that their breath isn't bad.

他们觉得牙齿更干净、牙龈疾病更少，但那些令人担忧的健康问题其实都是效果很差的公共卫生宣传。

I think they like the idea that their teeth look cleaner and they get less gum disease, etcetera, but all the scary stuff is actually very ineffective public health messaging.

我的猜测就是这样。

I mean, that's my guess.

是的，这其实挺有意思的，但回到你之前的问题，为什么人们觉得这么难呢？

Yeah, so actually that's quite interesting, But that getting back to your question, why do people find it so hard?

不久前，《科学》杂志发表了一项由一群社会心理学家进行的研究，研究主题是‘无聊’。

So there was a study published in Science not too long ago by a group of social psychologists, and it was a study of quote boredom.

在这项研究的核心部分，他们把参与者带到实验室，告诉他们：我们遇到一点小问题，你们需要等待十五到二十分钟，等我们修好设备，实验才能开始，你们将被安排在等候室里。

And what they did essentially in this study, the core of it was they took people into the lab and they said, We had a little problem and you guys are gonna have to wait for fifteen or twenty minutes before the experiment starts while we fix some piece of equipment, and they were in a waiting room.

等候室里有杂志和书籍，而且社会心理学家特别擅长设计这类情境。

There were magazines and books around, and they also said that social psychologists are really good at creating these scenarios.

于是，另一位实验人员进来表示，他们来自另一个研究团队，理解你们需要等待一段时间，并提出一个替代方案：你们可以在这段时间参与另一个实验，内容是接受电击。

And so another experimenter came in and said they're from another research group and they understand that they have to wait a little while, and we have another experiment that you can do in the meantime, and it involves receiving electric shocks.

当然，这完全是自愿的，你们可以自由选择参与或不参与。

And of course it's completely voluntary, you are free to participate or not.

关键发现是，尤其是美国的男性大学生，宁愿选择电击自己，也不愿独自坐着什么也不做。

And the bottom line is that this is particularly male undergraduates in The United States prefer to shock themselves than to sit alone and not do anything.

这是一个稳健的发现。

It's a robust finding.

归根结底，人们无法安静地坐着什么都不做。

People could not sit without doing something is the bottom line.

我认为原因在于，一旦我们真正开始审视自己的内心，大多数人会对自己看到的混乱感到恐惧。

And the reason, I think, is that once we actually begin to inspect our own minds, most people are frightened at the chaos that they see.

当我们以非常细致的方式观察时，发现的一个现象是，当人们开始冥想时，第一周的焦虑水平会出现统计上显著的上升。

One of the things we found when we look in a very granular way is that when people start to meditate, we see a statistically reliable increase, increase in anxiety in the first week.

有意思。

Interesting.

而这常常是人们说‘我做不到’的时候。

And that's often when people say, I can't do this.

这让我发疯了。

It's making me crazy.

我们告诉他们：这恰恰说明你正在做对的事情。

And what we tell them is that's exactly you're doing exactly the right thing.

你正在觉察自己内心的混乱。

You're noticing the chaos in your own mind.

这就像新健身计划带来的肌肉酸痛。

This is the soreness that comes from a new exercise program.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

但人们

But people

知道把酸痛与锻炼有效联系起来，嗯，这说明锻炼起作用了。

know to associate the soreness with, okay, the exercise was effective.

这将带来身体的适应。

It's going to lead to an adaptation.

我们还没有改变关于这一点的叙事，但我们的意思是，你感到焦虑其实很好。

And we haven't changed the the narrative yet about this, but what we're trying to, where we say, this is great that you're feeling anxious.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

这正是你该感受到的。

It's exactly what you should be feeling.

原谅我。

Forgive me.

我正在实时进行这一切，所以如果我慢了，是有原因的。

I'm I'm doing all this in real time, so if I if I'm slow, there's a reason.

现在，运动的类比显得更加重要了，因为幸运的是，人们已经接受了这样的观念：举重、骑车、跑步、划船或游泳等，都是为了激发身体的适应性变化。

The analogy to exercise feels ever more important now because, thankfully, the narrative has been embedded in people's minds that you lift objects or you cycle or run or row or swim, etcetera, to stimulate an adaptation.

我认为，运动科学、健康与保健等领域在传达‘肌肉的灼热感预示着下次跑步会更轻松、更健康、更长寿、更幸福’这一信息方面非常成功。

I think the exercise scientists, the fields of health and wellness, whatever it is, has been very effective in getting the message out that the burn in your muscles is the thing that's going to lead to an easier run the next time, to more fitness, more longevity, more well-being, etcetera.

但这种不适是当下的感受。

But it's discomfort in the moment.

长期以来，我一直试图说服人们——因为这是事实——当你试图解决问题、阅读困难的页面或书中的段落，尤其是那些你必须反复阅读三遍仍无法理解的内容时，那种内心的焦躁感，正是神经可塑性的刺激源。

For a long while now, I've been trying to convince people, because it's true, that the agitation that one feels trying to solve a problem or read a hard page or passage in a book, the one that you have to return to three times that you can't wrap your head around, that agitation is the stimulus for neuroplasticity.

如果你能轻松顺利地完成，大脑就没有理由改变。

If you could just breeze right through it, the brain has no reason to change.

不。

No.

它不会被激发去改变。

It's not stimulated to change.

毕竟，它只需要完成你试图做的事情即可。

It can, after all, just do the thing you're trying to do.

所以当你观察锻炼或认知发展时，这简直显而易见。

So it becomes sort of a duh when you when you look at exercise or you look at cognitive development.

但不知为何，当谈到冥想时，也许我们今天就能做到这一点。

But somehow when it comes to meditation, maybe we can accomplish this today.

我认为你正在为我们做这件事。

I think you're doing this for us.

仅仅知道，对我来说，在第一周，焦虑感会上升。

Just knowing, for me, just knowing that in the first week, anxiety is going to go up.

但这就像乳酸在肌肉中积累一样。

But that's the equivalent of lactate accumulating Exactly.

在肌肉中，没错。

In the muscles Exactly.

这是思维的乳酸。

It's the lactate of the mind.

那种灼烧感就是思维的乳酸。

The burn is the lactate of the mind.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢。

Thank you.

对。

Yes.

谢谢。

Thank you.

完美。

Perfect.

我相信，语言和表达对于让人们采纳那些需要长期重复这种不适适应循环的实践至关重要。

I believe that languaging and messaging is so critical to get people to adopt practices that require this discomfort adaptation loop that needs to be repeated over time.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

我知道多亏了你，我们今天一定能有所收获。

I knew we'd get someplace in that one, thanks to you.

很高兴你在这里。

So glad you're here.

第一周，每天五分钟。

So week one, five minutes a day.

预期并接纳这种焦虑。

Expect and embrace the anxiety.

这正是会带来适应变化的关键吗？

Is it the thing that's going to produce the adaptation?

我认为它确实在促成这一点。

I think it's contributing to it, yes.

而且你要意识到焦虑的存在，但不被焦虑控制，不陷入焦虑之中。

And you know, it's also being aware of the anxiety without being hijacked by the anxiety, without being lost in the anxiety.

所以能够看到焦虑的出现。

So being able to see the anxiety as it's arising.

这正是元意识的训练。

And this is training in meta awareness.

元意识非常重要。

Meta awareness is super important.

我实际上认为，元意识是任何人类转变、心理转变的必要前提。

I actually think meta awareness is a necessary prerequisite for any kind of human transformation, mental transformation.

你能为我们定义一下吗？再多讲讲它是什么？

Could you define it for us, tell us a bit more about it?

我非常好奇。

I'm very curious.

是的，我会说元意识是我们了解自己思维活动的能力。

Yeah, so I would say meta awareness is the faculty of knowing what our minds are doing.

对一些听众来说，这听起来可能有点奇怪，但你们中有多少人有过这样的经历：读一本书时，你一个字一个字地读，读完一页又一页，几分钟后却完全不记得刚读了什么？

And to some listeners that may sound a little strange, but how many of you have had the experience of reading a book where you might be reading each word on a page and you read one page, a second page, and after a few minutes you have no idea what you've just read?

你的思维迷失了，去了别的地方。

Your mind is lost, it's somewhere else.

但随后你醒过来了。

But then you wake up.

你醒来的那一刻，就是元意识的时刻。

The moment you wake up is a moment of meta awareness.

事实证明，这是一种可以训练的技能。

And it turns out that that's a trainable skill.

而这是所有其他形式训练、心理训练的重要前提之一。

And that is one of the really important prerequisites for all other forms of training, of mental training.

我们是否知道这种元意识在大脑中的哪个部位？

Do we know where this meta awareness resides in the brain?

是前额叶皮层吗？

Is it prefrontal cortex?

你知道的，这涉及前额叶皮层、前扣带回和岛叶的一个网络。

You know, it's a network of prefrontal cortex, anterior cingulate, insula.

我认为这些结构都在参与元意识。

I think those are all structures that are participating in meta awareness.

这很有趣，因为正如我们之前讨论的，人们渴望忘记自我，完全沉浸在体验中。

It's interesting because I feel like, as we were discussing earlier, people crave forgetting about themselves and just being an experience.

这确实是一种非常强大且富有吸引力的体验，我认为是积极的。

It's just such a powerfully, and I think positive seductive thing.

我经常想到，比如在派对上跳舞，有些人能尽情跳舞、享受其中，而有些人则对自己的舞姿感到拘谨。

I often think about, you know, like at a party dancing, Like people who can just dance and enjoy themselves versus people who are self conscious about how they're dancing.

即使是擅长跳舞的人也是如此。

Even people who are good at dancing.

你可以在拥有元意识的同时，不陷入尴尬的自我意识中。

You can be meta aware without being awkwardly self conscious, if you will.

你之前提到过心流，我那时没插话，但心流可以在有或没有元意识的情况下发生。

So, you talked earlier about flow, I didn't jump in then, but flow can occur with or without meta awareness.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yes.

我认为很多心流状态是在没有元意识的情况下发生的。

A lot of flow I think occurs without meta awareness.

所以最早研究心流的契克森米哈伊，他研究的是攀岩者，想想看，人们为什么要做攀岩这样的事？

So Chicksom Ahai, who first studied flow, he studied rock climbers, and like a rock climber who is I mean think about this, why do people do stuff like rock climbing?

我认为人们做这类事情的原因，是为了进入这种心流状态，而这类心流状态大多是没有元意识的，你完全沉浸在活动中。

I think that the reason why people do stuff like that is to produce this state of flow where most of those kinds of states of flow I think are states of flow without meta awareness, where you're completely absorbed in the activity.

对于攀岩者来说，哪怕只是片刻的注意力分散，都可能致命。

And for a rock climber, if there's even a momentary lapse in attention, it could be potentially lethal.

因此，通过以这种方式安排自己的物理环境，你实际上是在强制抑制默认模式网络。

And so by arranging one's physical environment in that way, you are basically forcing the default mode to be suppressed.

默认模式是一种与大量自我参照思维相关的状态，而自我参照思维常常会引发焦虑。

And the default mode is a mode that we know is associated with a lot of self referential thought, and self referential thought often is anxiety provoking.

因此，这是一种暂时抑制默认模式的方式。

And so this is a way to transiently suppress the default mode.

但流动状态也可以伴随着元意识出现。

But flow can also occur with meta awareness.

而这并不会降低流动状态的质量。

And it doesn't diminish the quality of the flow.

我们可以用电影院作为一个类比。

And one analogy that we can use is in a movie theater.

也就是说，观众都曾有过在电影院里的体验。

I mean, viewers have had the experience of being in a movie theater.

我肯定很多人都有过这样的经历：在电影院里，你完全沉浸在电影中，以至于可能根本没意识到自己身处影院，甚至没意识到自己正在看电影。

And I'm sure people have had the experience of being in a movie theater where you're so engrossed in the movie that you may actually you're not aware that you're in a theater, and you may not be even aware that you're watching a movie.

你完全沉浸在剧情里。

You're so you are totally absorbed in the plot.

我们实际上为此创造了一个术语，称之为经验融合，即你与体验完全融为一体。

And we've actually come up with a term to define that, and we call it experiential fusion, where you're fused with the experience.

这类似于没有元意识的状态下的心流。

And that is a kind of the analogous to flow without meta awareness.

但想象一下，你坐在电影院里，注意力完全集中，丝毫没有分心，但在意识的边缘，你依然意识到自己身处电影院。

But imagine being in the movie theater where your attention is riveted and there's absolutely no lapse in attention, but in the kind of penumbra of awareness, you're aware you're in a movie theater.

你意识到自己正在看电影，但这并不降低你注意力的质量。

You're aware that you're watching a movie, but that doesn't diminish the quality of your attention.

我想问一下关于混乱的问题，关于觉察内心的混乱，因为你提到，当人们刚开始冥想时，这种混乱会引发焦虑。

I wanna ask about this thing about chaos, noticing the chaos of one's mind, because you said that sits at the seat of the anxiety that people will feel when they first start to meditate.

每个人都知道，在里奇冥想中，要挺过第一周，预期会经历内心的混乱，然后克服它。

Now everyone knows in the Richie Meditation to push through the first week, expect the lactate of the mind, push through it.

我非常喜欢这个说法。

I love that so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

人们认为心灵是混乱的，学会与这种混乱共处，而不是对它做出反应，也不觉得必须逃离它。

The idea that the mind is chaotic and getting comfortable with that and not reacting to it, not feeling like we have to get away from it.

我们以前听过这种说法，但对我来说，想到冥想的目标是能够观察并安住于这种混乱，而不是一定要消除它，这还是一个相当新颖的概念。

We've heard this before, but I think it's somewhat of a novel concept to me to think that a goal of meditation is to be able to see that and sit with it, not necessarily eradicate it.

你知道，我觉得你说过你认识达赖喇嘛。

You know, I think you said you know the Dalai Lama.

对我们大多数人来说，看到达赖喇嘛和其他穿着僧袍的僧人时，你会说他每晚睡九个小时，每天冥想四小时。

Think for most of us, we see the Dalai Lama and other monks in robes, you say he sleeps nine hours per night and he's meditating four hours per day.

然后我们会想，好吧，他看起来非常安详，这对他们来说真好。

And we think, all right, he looks very blissed out, and that's great for them.

你认为他的心里也有混乱吗？

Do you think he has chaos in his mind?

极端的冥想者，或者甚至那些有丰富经验的冥想者，是完全摆脱了混乱，还是只是对混乱感到自在？

Is the idea that extreme meditators or even, you know, well practiced meditators are free of the chaos, or that they're just comfortable with the chaos?

我认为这是一个随时间发展的过程。

I would say that it's a developmental process that changes longitudinally.

最初会有大量混乱，但我觉得它会逐渐减弱。

So initially there's a lot of chaos, and I think it gradually subsides.

我不认为这是一个阶梯式的转变，而是随着时间推移逐渐发生的，混乱会自然减少。

I don't think it's like a step function, I think it really occurs gradually over time, and the chaos just sort of naturally diminishes.

但这是一个长期的过程，我认为对我们大多数人来说，总会有一些混乱存在。

But that's a long term process and I think for most of us there's always gonna be some chaos.

但混乱的一部分，我认为也是创造力的来源。当我们谈论元意识和对内心所有活动的觉察时，我常常允许我的学生——即使他们不是冥想者——每周花几个小时观察自己的内心。

But part of the chaos also is I think a source of creativity And when we talk about meta awareness and awareness of all that's going on in our mind, I often give my students the permission to, even if they're not meditators, to just spend a couple hours a week inspecting your mind.

只是观察你的内心。

Just inspect your mind.

留意你内心正在发生什么。

Pay attention to what's going on in your mind.

不要做外界的事情，如果你产生了一些有趣的想法，在观察过程中简单记下几个字，不用写很多，只是提醒自己在结束这次观察后能回想起来。

Don't do stuff outside, and if you come up with some interesting thought, write a little note to yourself as you're doing this, not a lot of words, but just a note to remind you when you're finished with this session.

我坚信，人类日常进行的大量创造性工作，某种程度上就像梦境一样。

And I have the conviction that there's a lot of creative work that humans do on a regular basis that's kind of like dreams.

大多数人不记得自己的梦，但梦会稳定地发生。我认为，日常中其实有很多创造性思维在发生，只是我们没有留意，就像我们忘记梦境一样。

Most people don't remember their dreams, but they occur reliably, And I think that there's a lot of creative thought that occurs on a regular basis, but we just don't pay attention to it and we forget it just like we forget our dreams.

但如果我们有机会以这种方式仔细审视自己的内心，我认为这种混乱常常蕴含着真正富有洞察力的创意，这些创意可能非常有价值。

But if we have the invitation to really inspect our mind in that way, I think this chaos actually often contains the seat of real creative insight that potentially could be valuable.

我也是。

I do too.

我的意思是，我每天早上醒来时，至少都会有一个从睡眠到清醒过渡过程中产生的想法。

I I mean, I wake up every morning with at least one idea from the transition from sleep to waking.

有时这想法来自梦境。

Sometimes it's from a dream.

我经常用语音备忘录记录下自己的梦境。

I often will record my dreams as voice memos.

等我死后，如果有人找到了这些语音备忘录，他们会觉得太疯狂了。

After I die, if somebody ever finds these voice memos, they're so crazy.

偶尔，我会试着听一下其中一段。

Every once in a while, I'll try and listen to one.

我觉得这太疯狂了。

I'm like, this is crazy.

但我不想忘记这些想法，有时候我不想醒来开灯，而是直接睡回去。

But I don't wanna forget things, and sometimes I don't wanna wake up and turn the lights on, and I'll go back to sleep.

所以我就会用语音备忘录录下来，有时也会写下来。

So I'll just record something in the voice memo, sometimes write it down.

我认为，从梦境中浮现的潜意识想法中，能学到很多东西，同时在白天也应有一种捕捉方式，记录下那些突然冒出来的念头。

I think there's so much learning to be had from what's coming up from the the unconscious mind in dreams, but also just having a mode of capture during the day, some way to just capture the things that spring to mind.

The Clash乐队的伟大人物乔·斯特拉默曾说过，如果你走路时突然冒出一个想法，你必须立刻记下来，因为你以为自己之后会记得，但实际上你记住的版本会远不如最初那么有力。

The great Joe Strummer from The Clash, he said this, he said, you know, if you are walking along and an idea comes to mind, you have to write it down because you think you'll remember it later, but you you will remember it in a form that is not nearly as potent.

是的。

Yeah.

他就是这么说的。

He said something like that.

这意味着，这是你的大脑在向你抛出想法，你必须抓住它们。

That this is the mind throwing you ideas that, and you gotta, you have to capture that.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

我觉得这是明智的建议。

I think it's wise advice.

我一些做歌曲创作和写诗的朋友，他们经常这么做。

Friends of mine who are songwriters, poets, they do this all the time.

他们不断记下一些可能发展成作品、也可能不会的东西，但他们明白，这些是潜意识浮上表面的信息。

They're constantly writing things down that they may or not develop something from, but they understand that there's information being thrown up to the surface for Yeah.

如果你不写下来，或者用其他方式记录下来，它就会消失。

If you don't write it down or capture it in some other way, it goes.

它是转瞬即逝的。

It's evanescent.

实际上，我虽然知道这看起来可能与人们对冥想的普遍看法相悖，但每天早上冥想时，我都会在坐垫旁放一个小本子，虽然不是每次冥想都这么做，但大概每周两次，我会在冥想过程中写下一两个词，只是为了提醒自己——因为我的练习中会冒出一些想法，我想记住它，也知道之后无法再以同样的丰富性回忆起来。

Actually have, I mean, may seem contrary to views of how meditation is done, but when I meditate every morning, I actually have a little notepad by my cushion, and occasionally, I don't do this every session, but maybe twice a week, I'll actually write down something during the meditation, one or two words just to remind me, because something comes up in my practice, maybe an idea, and I want to remember it, and I know also that I won't remember it after in the same richness.

所以我只是简单记下来，然后继续我的冥想。

And so I'll just jot it down and then go back to my practice.

冥想是孩子们可以进行并从中受益的吗？

Is meditation something that kids can do and benefit from?

这方面有没有进行过正式的研究？

Has that been studied in a formal way?

是的。

Yes.

已经有人研究过了。

It's been studied.

我们实际上为学龄前儿童开发了一种名为正念善意课程的项目。

We actually developed what we've called a mindfulness based kindness curriculum for preschool kids.

学龄前。

Preschool.

学龄前。

Preschool.

我们已经在公立学校系统中对这一课程进行了随机对照试验，并发表了相关成果。

And we've actually published a randomized controlled trial in a public school system of this curriculum.

而且这个课程在我们的网站上免费提供，有英语和西班牙语两种版本。

And the curriculum is available freely on our website in both English and Spanish.

所以，如果有老师或者认识老师的人想使用它，请随时下载并试试看。

So if any teachers are out there or you know teachers and want to use it, please feel free to download it and see how it is.

但确实，它看起来非常不同。

But yeah, so it looks very different.

例如，我们对三岁孩子做的一个他们很喜欢的练习是，在教室里敲响一个铃铛，然后让他们听声音。

So for example, what we do with a three year old, one of the exercises that they love is we ring a bell in a classroom and we have them tell them, Listen to the sound.

一旦你听不到声音了，就举起手。

And as soon as you no longer hear sound, raise your hand.

看到这一幕非常惊人，因为你可以让二十五个三到四岁的孩子安静地坐上大约十秒钟。

And it's amazing to see this because you can get twenty five three and four year olds sitting perfectly still for around ten seconds.

但他们能感受到。

But they could taste it.

那十秒钟里有一种明显的宁静感，然后他们都会兴奋地举起手。

There's a palpable sense of quiet in that ten seconds, and then they all raise their hand excitedly.

但他们真的能感受到，所以我确实认为这是可能的。

But they can really taste it, and so I do think it's possible.

另一点是，这非常重要，我们最近通过实证发现了一件事，那就是繁荣是会传染的。

The other thing is, and this is something really important, there's something we've discovered empirically recently, which is that flourishing is infectious.

繁荣具有传染性。

It's contagious.

繁荣是会传染的。

Flourishing is contagious.

你能解释一下这是什么意思吗？你们是怎么研究的？

Can you explain what that means and how you study that?

是的。

Yeah.

比如你提到让孩子冥想，我之所以在这个语境下提到这一点，是因为我认为父母能为孩子做的最好的事之一，不是让孩子去冥想，而是你自己冥想，然后陪伴孩子，全然在场，保持连接，真正地投入其中。

So in the example of you asked about meditating in kids, and the reason I'm bringing it up in this context is one of the best things I can think a parent can do for a kid is not to have the kid meditate, but meditate yourself and just be with the child and be fully present, be connected, and really show up in that way.

你会通过你的举止和互动，以一种完全潜移默化的方式，将这些品质传递给孩子。

And you will osmotically transmit through your demeanor and your interaction, you will transmit these qualities to the child in a completely implicit way.

这就是我们说繁荣具有传染性时的意思，也是我们研究它的方式。

And that's what we mean when we say flourishing is contagious, but how we studied it.

让我分享一个我们非常兴奋的发现，虽然这项研究尚未发表，但论文正在审稿中。

So let me actually share one of the, this is a finding that we're super excited about, and it's not yet published, but the paper is just under review.

我们目前非常关注的一个问题是：如何扩大人类繁荣的规模？

So one of the things we're deeply interested in these days is how can we scale human flourishing?

我们正在逐个领域推进，其中一个我们投入大量工作的领域是教育工作者。

So we're doing this kind of sector by sector, and one sector that we're doing a lot of work with is educators.

全球的教育工作者，尤其是在美国，但我们在墨西哥也做过类似研究，所以这并不仅限于美国。

And educators around the world, and particularly in The US, but we've done this in Mexico too, so it's not just U.

美国本土的。

S.-based.

但他们压力巨大，薪酬也不高，诸如此类。

But they're super stressed, they're not well paid and all of that.

因此，我们在肯塔基州路易斯维尔的公立学校教育工作者中开展了一项研究。我们选择路易斯维尔有很多原因，但这里的确是一个复杂的教育系统。

So we did a study with public school educators in Louisville, Kentucky, And there are many reasons why we went to Louisville, but Louisville is a complicated school system.

这个学区多元化，问题很多，是一个大型城市学区——路易斯维尔的杰斐逊县公立学校系统。

It's diverse, there are a lot of problems in it, and it's a big urban school district, the Jefferson County Public School District in Louisville.

我们在路易斯维尔对832名教育工作者进行了一项随机对照试验。

And we did a randomized controlled trial with eight thirty two educators in Louisville.

我们让他们使用我们的《健康心灵》项目，这是一个数字化项目，免费提供，名为《健康心灵》项目，帮助他们培养幸福感的四大核心支柱：觉知、联结、洞察和意义。

And we had them use our Healthy Minds program, which is a digital offering, which is freely available as the Healthy Minds program, where we had them cultivate four key pillars of well-being: awareness, connection, insight, purpose.

我们之后可以深入探讨每一个支柱。

We can take a deeper dive into each of those after.

但他们每天只练习大约五分钟。

But they practiced for around five minutes a day.

在28天的时间里，平均每天练习时间略低于五分钟。

The average was a little less than five minutes a day over the course of twenty eight days.

我们测量了抑郁、焦虑、压力和幸福感等标准指标，结果发现，和其他研究一样，抑郁、焦虑和压力下降了，而幸福感和繁荣感提升了。

And we measured standard outcomes like depression and anxiety and stress and measures of flourishing, and we find what we found in other studies, which is that depression and anxiety and stress went down and measures of well-being flourishing went up.

但真正关键的是，根据事先协议，我们获得了学校系统中学生层面的数据。

But the real kicker is that we, by prior agreement, had access to the student level data in the school system.

因此，我们能够查看由被随机分配参加正念培训的教师所教授的学生的表现，并将他们与由被随机分配到对照组的教师所教授的学生进行比较。

So we were able to look at the performance of the students who were taught by teachers randomly assigned to the well-being training and we compared them to students who were taught by teachers randomly assigned to a control group.

学生们根本不知道有任何研究正在进行。

The students had no idea that there was any research going on.

我们发现，在标准化测试中，这是针对初中生的，学生样本量约为13,000人。

And what we found is that on standardized tests, this is in middle school children, and the sample size for the students was around 13,000.

我们发现，接受过正念培训的教师所教授的学生的标准化数学成绩显著高于接受对照组教师授课的学生的成绩。

And what we found is that the standardized math scores of the students who were taught by teachers randomly assigned to the well-being training was significantly greater than the scores of the students who were taught by teachers randomly assigned to the control group.

使用的是相同的课程。

Same curriculum.

完全一样。

Identical.

那么，你认为这里传递的是什么？

So what do you think is being transmitted there?

是教师更平静了，因此学生也更平静了吗？

Is it that the teachers are calmer, therefore the students are calmer?

是老师更平静了，因此讲解更清晰，所以学生也……我的意思是，这里面有很多变量。

Is it that the teachers are calmer, therefore they're clearer, so the students are I mean, there are a lot of variables.

有很多变量。

A lot of variables.

我们不需要把它们一一隔离开来。

And we don't need to isolate them.

我的意思是，我们并不是在做药理学研究。

I mean, this isn't a I mean, we're not trying to do pharmacology here.

但你觉得可能发生了什么？

But what do you think could be going on?

是的，我认为你所说的每一点都可能发生。

Yeah, I think everything you said is likely to be going on.

我认为学生们，老师们可能更平静了，也更富有连接感。

I think the students, the teachers are likely calmer, they're more connected.

我们知道的是，这很有趣，因为我们看了阅读成绩，标准化阅读测试的数据也呈现相同趋势，但没那么显著。

What we know is that it was interesting because we looked at reading scores and the data for the standardized reading measure was in the same direction but it wasn't as robust.

最大的信号出现在数学成绩上。

The biggest signal was in math scores.

我们知道，在这个年龄段，数学表现比阅读表现更容易受到压力的影响。

And we know that math performance is degraded by stress more than reading performance in this age group.

因此，这可能很简单：接受过幸福感培训的老师所教的学生，在参加考试时更加平静、压力更小。

And so it could be something as simple as the kids who were taught by teachers that went through the well-being training are simply calmer and less stressed when they take the exam.

因此，他们的真正能力更有可能在考试中体现出来，而不会因这种额外的压力和焦虑而被削弱。

And so their true competence is more likely to be reflected in the test and not have it degraded by this kind of added stress and anxiety.

很有趣。

Interesting.

这说明了幸福在这种方式下是会传染的。

This is an illustration that flourishing is contagious in this way.

我想短暂休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商Joovvv。

I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovvv.

红光、近红外光和红外光已被明确证明对改善细胞和器官健康的多个方面具有积极效果。

Red light, near infrared, and infrared light have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health.

这些包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康、促进伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减轻疼痛和炎症、增强线粒体功能，甚至提升视力。

These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improvements in vision.

如今市面上有很多红光设备，但Joovv设备的与众不同之处在于，为什么它是我首选的红光疗法设备：joovv.com/huberman。

Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there, but what sets Joovvlites apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device joovv.com/huberman.

这太有趣了。

It's so interesting.

而且，我能想到很多可能起作用的变量。

And again, I can think of so many different variables that could be at play.

我们曾经做过一期节目，是我们最受欢迎的节目之一，嘉宾名叫詹姆斯·霍利斯。

We did an episode, one of our most popular episodes ever, with a guy named James Hollis.

你熟悉詹姆斯·霍利斯吗？

Are you familiar with James Hollis?

不熟悉。

No.

他现在大概85岁了，是一位荣格派分析师。

He's a, probably by now, 85 year old Jungian analyst.

好的。

Okay.

才华横溢的人。

Brilliant guy.

他写过好几本书。

He wrote he's written a number of books.

《伊甸园计划》，这本书探讨了在土星阴影下的关系与互动，以及创伤与疗愈。

The Eden Project, which is about relationships and relating under Saturn's shadow on the about trauma and healing.

他真是一个了不起的灵魂，一个非凡的人，也是一位杰出的教育者。

Just just an incredible soul, an incredible human, and an just an incredible educator.

我并不是唯一这么认为的人。

And I'm not alone in in believing that.

简直太棒了。

Just spectacular.

我说过，他是荣格派分析师，于是我问他，幸福生活的关键是什么？

And I said, you know, he's a Jungian analyst, so I said, you know, what's the key to a really good life?

但是，我们能谈谈协议吗？

Like but can we talk protocols?

他提到一些非常有趣的观点，我认为这会与你所说的产生共鸣，并可能揭示这些学生以及整体繁荣背后发生的事情。

And he said something really interesting that I think will resonate with what you're saying and perhaps shed some light on what happened with these students and flourishing in general.

他说，每天醒来、做好准备、现身并投入工作——无论是学校、关系还是生活——都至关重要。

He said, it's so important that we wake up each day and we suit up and we show up and we work in school, in relationships, in life, he said.

但同样重要的是，每天抽出一点时间，脱离刺激与反应的循环。

But it's also just as important that we take a short amount of time every day and get out of stimulus and response.

因为当我们脱离刺激与反应时——虽然我说得远不如霍利斯那么优雅——我们才能以某种方式真正认识自己，从而更有效地应对其他一切。

Because by getting out of stimulus and response, and I'm not being nearly as eloquent as Hollis, we come to know ourselves in a certain way that lets ourselves show up so much more effectively for everything else.

所以，也许这些老师所做到的，正是通过安坐于这种焦虑之中——因为现在我在想大脑中的乳酸。

And so maybe, just maybe, what these teachers achieve is by sitting in this anxiety, because now I'm thinking about the lactate of the mind.

他们正在实践一种方法，让自己体验焦虑，而不是对它做出反应。

They're doing a practice which lets them experience the anxiety, not respond to it.

他们正在脱离刺激与反应的模式。

They're getting out of stimulus and response.

没错。

Exactly.

也许在课堂上，他们能够教得更多、更有效，因为他们不再关注那些不重要的事情。

And perhaps in the classroom, they're able to teach more, teach more effectively because they're not paying attention to the things that don't matter.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

或者也可能是他们更关注那些真正重要的事情，他们的信号与噪声比更高。

Or maybe it's because they're also paying attention to the things that do Their signal to noise is higher.

是的。

Yeah.

这么说吧。

So to speak.

无论如何，我忍不住要提到霍利斯的观点，因为不提的话就太疏忽了。

Anyway, I couldn't help but reference the Hollis thing because to not do that would would would be remiss.

但同时，这位先生说，你每天都得去上班。

But also, here's a guy who's saying, you gotta go to work each day.

这是构建美好生活的关键，你必须做所有这些事情。

This is essential to building a good life and you have to do all these things.

他还说，摆脱刺激与反应的模式，才是让你在各方面都更有效率的原因。

And he's also saying, but getting out of stimulus response is what makes you effective in everything.

当然，这也能提升你的自我认知。

And of course, improves your self understanding.

想想你所说的，我不愿替你说话，但我觉得当你谈到冥想时，你的意思是它是一种摆脱刺激与反应的方式。

And think what you're saying, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but what I think you're saying when you talk about meditation is that it's a it's a way of getting out of stimulus and response.

是的。

Yeah.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

我觉得这个比喻非常恰当。

I think that's a great analogy.

是的。

Yeah.

他完全配得上所有这些赞誉。

Well, he deserves all the credit for all of that.

你为进行这些实验付出了全部努力，理应获得所有赞誉，因为多年来，我一直感到沮丧的是，尽管人们听说冥想效果强大，但在西方，‘冥想’这个词总让人联想到神秘主义和古老的东西，人们会觉得：‘这不适合我。’

You deserve all the credit for running all these experiments because I feel like what's been so frustrating over the years has been to hear how powerful meditation is, but that for people in the West, the word meditation brings up ideas of mysticism and ancient things, and people think, well, that's not for me.

这不会给我现在的生活带来任何好处。

That's not gonna benefit me now in this world.

但我认为，我们现在更需要它。

But I would argue we need it even more so now.

我同意。

I agree.

我认为，正在侵蚀我们社会的分裂与极化现象，凸显了这一点的极端重要性。

And I think that the divisiveness and polarization that is just eating away at our society underscores the critical importance of this.

我认为，人类历史上从未像现在这样更需要它；而且我相信，只要进行适度的练习，它就会见效——我们另一个非常重要的口号是：它比你想象的要简单。

I think it's needed now more than ever before in human history, and I think that it will, with just modest amounts of practice, and one of the other kind of slogans that we think is really important is that it's easier than you think.

确实如此。

It really is.

每天五分钟就能产生可测量的影响。

Five minutes a day has a measurable impact.

所以我认为，如果我们真正重视这一点，如果每个人每天练习五分钟，我坚信这个世界会变得完全不同。

And so I think that if we really take this to heart, if everyone practiced for five minutes a day, I have the strong conviction that this world would really be a different place.

当然。

Oh, absolutely.

我认为挑战在于说服人们，而你正在做这件事。

I think the challenge is convincing people and that's, you know, you're doing it.

我们正一点一点地努力实现这一点。

We're trying to do that little by little.

我的意思是，作为一种零成本的工具，它的正面效果却极为显著。

I mean, for a zero cost tool, it's just outsized positive effects.

我认为大多数人最初接触冥想是因为它能降低血压。

I think most people come to the table because it will lower their blood pressure.

他们听说冥想能减轻压力，或许还能提高效率、变得更聪明或改善睡眠。

They hear that it will reduce their stress, maybe make them more effective, make them smarter or sleep better.

但还有更高层次的影响，人们谈论的是对意识及其可能或不可能的本质获得某种理解。

But there are also the higher order effects that people talk about, gaining some understanding of consciousness and what it may or may not be.

这些影响通常什么时候会出现，如果它们真的会出现的话？

When do those effects tend to arrive, if they ever do?

通过冥想，脱离刺激与反应的循环，只是观察自己的想法而不去回应，保持不评判的态度，我们真的能获得关于思维如何运作的根本洞察吗？

Is it true that by meditating, by getting out of the stimulus in response and just watching one's thoughts and not responding to them and just non judgment, that we can actually gain some fundamental insight into how our minds work?

我认为这是可能的，而且确实会发生。如果我们真正成为优秀的科学家，在面对这个问题时，谦逊是非常重要的，这突显了我们实际上知道得多么少。我认为，这类实践能帮助我们触及某种我认为是人性本质的一部分的东西。

I do think that that's possible, and I think that it does occur, and I think that if we're really good scientists, there is an important element of humility as we approach this that underscores really how little we know, and I think that these kinds of practices help us tap into something that I think is part of what it means to be a human being.

其中一部分，老实说，我们可以用‘灵性’或‘超验’这样的词来形容，我的意思是某种与比自我更宏大事物相连的东西。

And part of it is honestly we can use the words spiritual in some way, or transcendent, and by that I mean something connected to something larger than oneself.

我知道这有点进入玄乎的领域了，但人们确实能体验到这种感觉，它能为生活赋予更多意义，并注入一种我认为非常有益的使命感。

And I know that this is getting into a little bit of woo woo territory, but people do have a taste of this, and it helps to give their life more meaning and to infuse it with a kind of purpose that I think is really beneficial.

我想知道，很想听听你的看法：通过冥想，看到思维是混乱的，难以控制，或许我们能做的最好的事就是观察而不回应，不去试图控制它，这是否最终会在冥想实践中让一个现实浮现出来——我们都终将一死？

I wonder, and I'd love your thoughts on this, whether by doing meditation and seeing that the mind is chaotic and that it's difficult to control and that perhaps the best thing we can do is just observe and not respond to it, but not try and control it, that inevitably in one's meditation practice that the reality surfaces that we're all gonna die.

我认为对很多人来说，对死亡的恐惧是令人毛骨悚然的。

And I think for a lot of people, the fear of death is terrifying.

我的意思是，死亡是不可避免的，而且非常可怕。

I mean, it's inevitable, and it's terrifying.

我有时觉得，世界上我们接触到的许多东西——无论是药物、酒精、过度工作还是其他任何事物——其更深层的实质都是在让我们逃避这一现实。

And I do sometimes feel that a lot of the stuff in the world that we're offered, whether or not it's drugs or alcohol or excessive work or whatever, that just all the stuff is that a deeper layer of that offering is that it distracts us from that reality.

因为这真的很可怕，对吧？

Because it's terrifying, right?

任何一个健康的人都不想死。

Any healthy person doesn't want to die.

不过我认为，并不是所有人都觉得死亡可怕，而且我确信，长期的冥想实践确实会改变这一点。

Although I don't think it's terrifying for all people, and I think that this is actually one of the dimensions that is shifted by long term meditation practice, unquestionably.

这种改变是因为人们逐渐理解了能量，认为自己可能会融入某种更宏大的存在，还是你觉得这是因为人们只是接受了‘我们存在，然后就不再存在’这一现实？

Is it shifted because people come to some understanding of energy and the fact that they will likely become part of something else, or do you think it's that they can just accept the reality that we're here than we're not here?

我认为是后者。

I think it's more the latter.

而且，想象一下，今天就是我们活着的最后一天。

And, also, imagine that this is the last day we're living right now.

偏偏还是13号星期五。

Friday the thirteenth of all days.

就是这一天。

Of all days.

偏偏是13号星期五。

It happens to be Friday the thirteenth.

我们是否以让自己感到安心的方式出现，充分利用生命，不浪费我们拥有的机会？

And are we showing up in a way that feels right for us and making the most of our lives and not squandering the opportunity that we have.

如果我们能每天都这样生活，我相信这真的会改变我们对待死亡的方式。

And if we can live every day in that way it really will change, I think, how we approach our mortality.

就我个人而言，我确实觉得，今天我对死亡的感受和十五年前截然不同。

And I know for me personally, I mean, I feel very differently about dying today than I did like fifteen years ago.

这是其中一个发生巨大变化的方面。

That's one dimension where there's been a dramatic shift.

你能详细说说吗？

Would you mind elaborating on that?

怎么说呢？

How so?

十五年、二十年前，你是怎么想的？

How did you feel about it fifteen, twenty years ago?

是的，我当时也一样害怕。

Yeah, I was terrified in the same way.

我有家庭，有两个孩子，还有这么多责任。

I had a family, I have two kids, I have all these responsibilities.

请好好想想这一点，我真的希望你能想想。

Reflect on this, I really do.

如果我今天去世，我会觉得自己过了一段非常充实的人生。

If I died today, I would feel like I've lived a very fulfilling life.

对此，我心安理得。

And I'm fine with that.

能这样说真是太好了。

That's a great thing to be able to say.

能这样说真是太好了。

That's a great thing to be able to say.

我认为大多数人可能无法如此真心地这么说。

I don't think most people would probably be able to say the same wholeheartedly.

你知道的。

You know?

你把这种感觉部分归因于冥想。

And you attribute some of that sense to meditation.

当然。

Definitely.

但这是一个渐进的过程。

But it's been gradual.

你知道，我第一次参加冥想静修是在1974年，从那以后我每天都坚持练习。

You know, I've been at this my very first meditation retreat was in 1974, and I've been practicing daily ever since.

每天都是吗？

Every single day?

嗯，每年可能有一两天我因为六小时的航班而错过。

Well, I may have missed one or two days a year when I had a six a.

嗯。

M.

飞行，但除此之外，是的。

Flight, but other than that, yes.

那么，你的修行，你最持续的修行方式是什么？

And what has your practice, your most consistent practice been?

你知道，这些年来我的修行方式改变了很多，我实践过非常不同的传统。

You know, my practice has changed many times over these the course of these years and very different traditions in which I've practiced.

所以

So

那关于一天中的时间呢？

What about time of day?

通常是早上吗？

Is it typically Morning.

哦，对我来说一直都是早上。

Oh, it's always been morning for me.

你起床后上厕所、喝点水，然后再开始，还是直接就开始？

You get up, you use the bathroom, have a drink of water, and start, or you go right into it?

不。

No.

我起床后，现在会给自己泡一杯浓黑茶，嗯。

I get up, and I make myself, these days, a cup of strong black tea Mhmm.

然后我喝茶，大概需要十五分钟，之后就开始冥想。

And I drink the tea, which takes maybe fifteen minutes, and then I meditate.

明白了。

Got it.

你会设个计时器或铃声吗？

Do you set a timer or a chime?

是的

Yeah.

我会设置计时器，你知道的，我冥想的时间长短不一，但我最常做的时长是每天大约四十五分钟。

I do set a timer, and, you know, I meditate at various lengths, but I my modal time sitting is about forty five minutes a day.

有时会更长，有时会更短，但通常每天大约四十五分钟。

Sometimes it's longer, sometimes it's shorter, but usually around forty five minutes a day.

也许每周有三四天，我会在晚上睡觉前做一次很短的冥想，大概五分钟。

And maybe three or four days a week, I do a really short practice at night, maybe five minutes before I go to sleep.

既然每个参加‘每天五分钟、持续三十天’冥想挑战的人都会完成，那么当他们达到三十天后，是否应该把冥想时间延长，还是你建议人们尽可能长时间保持五分钟？

Since everyone that takes on the five minute a day, thirty day meditation challenge will do it, Once they reach thirty days, does it make sense to update that to a longer meditation, or would you just suggest that people stay with that as long as possible?

我建议你定期检视自己，看看你对冥想的感受如何，它是否与你产生共鸣。

What I would suggest is check-in with yourself and see how you're feeling about it and how it's resonating with you.

如果你觉得再延长有困难，那就坚持每天五分钟，继续做下去。

And if you feel like you can't really do much more, just stick with five minutes a day and keep doing that.

最重要的是坚持每日练习。在我们新书《天生茁壮》中提到，很多人很难真正坚持每天冥想。我们根据研究发现，在初期阶段，无论你是进行正式的冥想练习，还是在做其他不费力的日常活动时进行冥想——比如走路或通勤——都没关系。关键是把冥想与你每天固定进行的活动绑定在一起，无论那些活动是什么。

The important thing is to stick with the daily practice, and one of the things that we talk about in this new book Born to Flourish is a lot of people have a really difficult time coming up really being able to do this daily, And one of the things that we talk about based on our finding that it doesn't matter, at least in the early stages, whether you're meditating as a formal practice or doing it while doing other activities of daily living that are not demanding, like walking or commuting, you tie this to regular activities that you do every day, whatever those activities are.

我们还谈到了社会时间线索这个概念。

And we talk about this idea of social zeitgebers.

你知道，时间线索是一种环境事件或信号，在经典文献中，它标志着生物节律，比如光线就是设定我们生物节律的时间线索。

A zeitgeber, as you know, is an environmental event, a signal that marks a, in the classical literature, a biological rhythm, like light is a zeitgeber to set our biological rhythms.

但在现代社会，我们有了由人类创造的社会时间线索。

But in the modern world we have social zeitgebers that are human created zeitgebers.

比如，进食就是一种时间线索。

So eating, for example, is a zeitgeber.

我们通常每天在差不多相同的时间进食，至少大多数人是这样，这提供了一个机会。

We eat typically at roughly similar times every day, at least most people, and that's an opportunity.

你每天都会进食，可以将一小段练习与之结合。

You do that every day, you compare a little practice with that.

你可以尝试的一种练习，我几乎每次吃饭时都会做，除非我正在和别人见面而显得尴尬，但在家里我都会做：进行一段感恩练习。

And one of the practices that you can do, which I do every time I eat virtually, unless I'm meeting with someone and it's awkward, but I do it at home, is do a little appreciation practice.

花三十到九十秒的时间，反思让你的盘子里有食物所涉及的每一个人。

Spend just thirty to ninety seconds reflecting on all the people it took to have food on your plate.

这还让你感受到相互依存，当我坐下来吃早餐时，这对我来说是一个提示。

And it also gives you a sense of interdependence, and when I sit down and have my breakfast, it's a cue for me.

这是一种社会性时间线索。

It's a social zeitgebber.

我每次都会进行感恩练习。

I do my appreciation practice every single time.

你还可以做一些疯狂的事情，比如我家里养了一只猫。

And then there's crazy things you can do, like I have a cat at home.

每天晚上都是我来清理猫砂。

I'm the one who scoops the litter every night.

我实际上把这当成一种练习。

I actually do that as a practice.

这实际上并不需要额外的时间。

And it literally takes no extra time.

我在清理猫砂的时候就顺便做了。

I do it while I'm doing the scooping of the litter.