学习与记忆的科学与工具 | 大卫·伊格曼博士

辩论。

Debate.

所以，你可以选择任何有争议的话题，比如堕胎、枪支管控，随便你选，然后和AI进行辩论。

So you take any hot button issue, abortion, gun control, whatever you want, and you debate with the A.

我。

I.

然后你会根据你论点的质量来评分。

And you get graded based on the quality of your arguments.

接着你换立场，站在另一边再次进行论证。

And then you switch sides and you take the other side and you argue again.

这种事，你永远不可能有足够的老师来做到。

This is the kind of thing you could never have enough teachers for.

他们也永远不会有足够的耐心来做到。

They would never have enough patience for.

A。

A.

我。

I.

在这方面非常出色。

Is terrific at this.

顺便说一下，这非常重要，能让学生对问题获得全方位的视角，而不是陷入意识形态的偏执。

And by the way, it's really important so that students get a three sixty view of issues instead of ideological capture.

因此，这是一种极佳的方式，可以培养每个学生的批判性思维，而不仅仅是演讲与辩论队的学生。

So this is a terrific way to teach critical thinking to every student, not just the kids on the speech and debate team.

好吧，创造力。

Okay, creativity.

这很简单。

That's easy.

这涉及到学习基础内容，然后进行重组、调整、打破、融合，创造出新的版本。

That has to do with learning the foundational stuff and then doing remixes, bending, breaking, blending, doing new versions of it.

我认为学校是可以实施这一点的。

And I think schools can implement this.

轻松实现，而且无需额外开支——你必须教授基础内容，但可以将其压缩。

Easily and without any extra expense, which is you have to teach the foundational stuff, but you compress that.

所以每个学期末可以多出一周时间。

So you have one extra week at the end of each semester.

在最后一周，可以说：太好了，把你们学到的一切都用起来，利用我们学过的所有元素，自己创作一些东西，加以改造、打破、融合，做出属于你自己的版本。

And then that last week, say, hey, great, take everything you've learned and now make your own thing with it using all the elements that we've learned, bend it, break it, blend it, make your own version of this.

这种练习就是创造力。

That kind of exercise is that is creativity.

创造力就是如此：把你积累的知识库拿出来，进行重新组合。

That's all creativity is, is taking your storehouse of knowledge and doing remixes.

我们应该教授这种能力。

We should be teaching that.

所以是批判性思维和创造力。

So critical thinking and creativity.

德国哲学家歌德曾说，父母能给予孩子的有两个宝贵馈赠。

Goethe, the German philosopher, had said there are two bequests that a that a parent can give a child.

一个是根基，一个是翅膀。

One is roots and one is wings.

我对这句话的理解一直是批判性思维和创造力。

And my interpretation of that has always been critical thinking and creativity.

非常喜欢。

Love that.

谢谢你把它变得切实可行。

And thank you for making it practical.

我认为我们所有人都可以在这方面投入更多时间。

That's something I think any and all of us could invest some more time in.

我也同意，在互联网上浪费时间非常容易。

I also agree it's very easy to waste time on on on the Internet.

我有一部专门用于社交媒体的手机。

I have a separate phone for social media.

太好了。

Oh, great.

这解决了很多问题。

That solved a lot of issues.

并不是说它真的严重污染了我的生活。

Not that it was really contaminating my life that much.

我喜欢社交媒体。

I I like social media.

我喜欢在那里教学和学习，也有些娱乐内容。

I like teaching and learning there and some entertainment there.

但通过把它放在一部旧手机上，微信和Instagram都只装在这部手机里，别人会通过短信发东西给我，我就得手动转移过来。

But by putting it on an old phone, so X and Instagram are just on that phone, it's a people send me things by text, and I I have to transfer them over.

有时候我会看到这些消息。

Sometimes I see them.

有时候我就没看。

Sometimes I don't.

我的默认设置已经不再是随手拿起手机就刷社交媒体了。

My default setting is no longer to just look at my phone and look at social media.

是的。

Yes.

它提高了我的生产力，也提升了我的幸福感和专注力。

It has increased my productivity and just my happiness and my level of attention.

另外，当我使用社交媒体时，我会像看一部剧或做其他有意识投入时间的事情那样去做，而不是总是无意识地在后台刷屏。

Also, when I do social media, that's I'm doing it like a like a like watching a show or doing something that I would devote time for is to not always just scrolling in the background.

你有没有发现自己有时会无意识地拿起手机？

Do you find yourself picking up phone sometimes accidentally?

如果我发现自己下意识地这么做，我会用一个我称之为‘超级监狱锁箱’的东西，那种东西无法自行解锁。

If I do, if I find myself doing that reflexively, I have a what I call a supermax prison lockbox, which you can't code out of.

对我来说，有趣的是，这真的很奇怪。

And the fun for me and get this is like really weird.

我不知道这反映了我什么样的心理。

I don't know what this says about my psychology.

我会把它放进去，然后设定时间，比如四个小时。

I'll put it in there and I'll dial in, you know, okay, like, four hours.

是的。

Yeah.

然后我按下超级监狱按钮，就会有一个十五秒的倒计时。

And then I hit hit the supermax button, and then there's this fifteen second countdown.

接着我会设置四小时、五小时、六小时、七小时、八小时、九小时。

And then I'll go five, six, seven, eight, nine hours.

然后我会说，好吧。

And I go, okay.

不错。

Cool.

九个小时啊。

Like, nine hours.

所以有一种奇怪的心理，让你不想放它走。

So there's this weird thing where you don't wanna let it go.

是的。

Yeah.

但随后我真的很享受从它中获得的自由，那些额外增加的、持续的时间，感觉像是送给自己的一份礼物。

But then you I really enjoy the freedom from it so much that that extra hours that I add on and that lasting, it feels like a gift to myself.

是的。

Yes.

然后我会想，今天一定会很棒。

And I'm like, I'm gonna have a great day.

当我重新回到它上面时，确实会有一种多巴胺机制的作用——哦，这太有趣了，但你必须非常小心，因为它会把你完全吸进去。

And then when I get back on it, certainly, there's this, dopamine dynamics thing where you, Oh, this is a lot of fun, but you have to be super careful because it'll suck you in.

我惊讶于时间过得如此之快，这一点我们待会儿会讨论时间感知。

I'm just amazed at how fast time goes, which we're going to talk about time perception.

不过在那之前，我有个关于可塑性的问题。

Before we do that, though, I have a question about plasticity.

我一直想问你，而且只愿意问你，因为我们有很多神经科学家朋友，但我感觉你对这个问题的思考比任何人都深入：我们有没有办法延长可塑性的窗口期？或者是否存在某些活动，比如学习乐器或某种游戏，能让我们在可塑性的‘高度’和‘宽度’上获得提升，而不仅仅是遵循同样的原则？

I've been waiting to ask you and only you because we have a lot of friends that are neuroscientists, but I have a feeling you've thought about this more than anyone, which is, are there any things that we can do to extend the window of plasticity, or are there activities like learning an instrument or some sort of game, who knows, that gives us our capacity for plasticity more height, more width, as opposed to just the same principles.

你需要专注于这件事，然后犯错，并进行错误修正。

You need to focus on the thing, then you need to make errors and you need to do some error correction.

你那天晚上能好好睡觉。

You get to sleep that night.

你会重新布线。

You rewire.

你继续尝试与纠错。

You keep trial and error.

我的意思是，我们现在已了解基本原理。

I mean, we know the basics now.

我认为大多数人已经听过这些了。

I think most people have heard them.

但我们能做些什么来扩大或提升获得可塑性的能力呢？

But what can we do to broaden our ability or heighten our ability to get plasticity?

两个词：追求新奇。

Two words seek novelty.

整个关键就在于不断挑战大脑。

That's the whole game is you got to continually challenge the brain.

随着我们年龄增长，这一点变得比以往任何时候都更重要。

And this is something that as we get older, it's more important than ever.

就是要寻找那些我们以前从未做过的新事物。

It's finding new things that we haven't done before.

你必须始终让自己处于既有点挫败感但又能够实现的平衡状态。

You always have to keep yourself between the levels of frustrating but achievable.

只要你一直在尝试新事物。

And as long as you're trying new things.

所以，是的，学习一种新乐器非常好。

So, yes, a new instrument is great.

学习一门新语言也非常棒。

Speaking a new language is great.

你知道，显然我们生活在一个飞速变化的世界里。

You know, obviously, we're in a world that's moving very fast.

因此，跟上技术发展，去发现这里有一个新的机会，比如这款新软件之类的。

So just keeping up with the technology and figuring out, well, there's this new opportunity here with this piece of software or whatever.

所有这些都很棒。

All that stuff is great.

这才是至关重要的部分。

This is the critically important part.

你可能了解这些研究。

You may know these studies.

有一项研究已经持续了几十年，叫什么来着？

There's been this this study going on for decades now called the what is it?

芝加哥地区的一项宗教团体研究，许多修女和神父同意在去世后捐赠大脑。

The religious order study up in Chicago area where there's a whole bunch of nuns and priests that agreed to donate their brains when they passed away.

当他们捐赠大脑后，研究人员会对其进行检查和尸检。

And then when they donate their brains, the researchers, you know, examine them, do autopsies on.

研究人员发现，有一部分修女患有阿尔茨海默病，但生前没人知道。

What the researchers found is that some fraction of these nuns had Alzheimer's disease, but nobody knew it when they were alive.

没人观察到任何认知缺陷。

Nobody saw any cognitive deficits.

为什么？

Why?

因为这些女性去世时都已九十多岁。

It's because these these women died in their nineties.

直到去世那天，她们都生活在修道院里。

And to the day they died, they lived in these convents.

在修道院里，她们有社交责任。

And in the convents, they had social responsibilities.

她们有家务要做，会和姐妹们吵架，还会和同伴们一起玩游戏。

They had chores, they were fighting with their sisters, they were playing games with their fellow sisters.

她们会唱歌。

They were singing songs.

她们总是忙个不停。

They were doing things all the time.

所以她们让大脑保持活跃。

So they kept their brain active.

所以，即使他们的大脑因阿尔茨海默病而物理性退化，他们仍在构建新的神经通路。

So even as their brain was physically degenerating with Alzheimer's disease, they were building new roadways.

他们在这些区域之上搭建了新的桥梁。

They were building new bridges over these areas.

这一点告诉我们，对比一下那些65岁退休后回家坐在沙发上看电视的人。

This is one of the big things that tells us that, you know, contrast this with with people who retire at 65 and they go home and they sit on a couch and watch the television.

他们没有那么好的结果，因为他们不再挑战自己的大脑。

They don't have as good an outcome because they're not challenging their brain anymore.

所以，不断做事非常重要。

So it is so important to be doing things.

我曾经听过一种说法，大脑最难做的事情就是应付别人。

You know, I once heard the expression that there's nothing is hard that the brain does than other people.

对于这些生活在修道院里的女性来说，她们总是要应对各种情况，因为你永远不知道别人会说什么、如何反应或做什么。

And so for these for these women living in convents that we're constantly dealing with because you never know what somebody is going to say or how they're going to react or what they're going to do.

因此，这对大脑来说是一个绝佳的挑战机会。

So this is great challenge opportunity for the brain.

总之，重点是我们需要始终为自己找到这样的机会。

Anyway, the point is we need to always find that with ourselves.

经常有人问我，比如一位年长者会说：嘿，我做填字游戏。

Oftentimes people will ask me like an older person will say, hey, I do crossword puzzles.

这有好处吗？

Is that good?

是的，这有好处，但直到你熟练了之后就该停下来，去做一些你不擅长的事情，不断寻找下一个真正有挑战性的任务。

Yeah, it's good until you get good at it and then stop and do something that you're not good at and constantly find the next thing that's a real challenge for you.

这就是大脑可塑性的关键所在。

That's the key thing about plasticity.

本质上，背景是这样的。

Essentially, the backstory is this.

正如你所知，你的大脑被困在寂静与黑暗之中。

As you well know, your brain is locked in silence and darkness.

它正在努力构建对外部世界的模型，而它的全部目标就是建立一个成功的模型。

It's trying to make a model of the outside world, and its whole goal is to make a successful model.

当它成功做到这一点并说：哦，好吧，我终于能很好地预测正在发生的事情了。

And when it succeeds at that and says, oh, okay, wait, I've got good predictions about what's going on.

然后它就停止变化了。

Then it stops changing.

我的意思是，它的目标就是停止变化。

I mean, that's its goal is to stop changing.

如果你不断用它不理解的事物去推动和挑战它，它就会持续变化。

And if you're constantly pushing and challenging it with things it doesn't understand, then it'll keep changing.

我完全同意。

Amen to that.

我一直试图强调，人在学习新事物时所感受到的焦躁感。

I've been trying to beat the drum that the agitation that one feels when trying to learn something new.

这在某种程度上其实是儿茶酚胺的反映，对吧？

It's actually a reflection in part of the catecholamines, right?

比如肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素，我们感受到的挫败和焦躁。

Like adrenaline and norepinephrine, the frustration and the agitation that we feel.

这是大脑收到的反馈信号，表明：嘿，这和你熟悉的事情不一样。

That's the feedback signal to the brain that, hey, this is different than the stuff you know how to do.

因为神经元并不是在‘思考’，而是在放电，对吧？

Because the neurons are not thinking, they're firing, right?

因此，与挫败感相关的神经化学环境是触发可塑性的一个因素，也许你能帮我解答这个问题。

And so that neurochemical milieu associated with frustration is one of the triggers that generates plasticity, which actually Maybe you can resolve this question for me.

我注意到，有大量研究表明，成年大脑是可以改变的。

I'm struck by the fact that there's so many studies showing that the adult brain can change.

是的。

Yes.

其中一些更有趣的研究涉及提升某些神经调节剂的水平，比如多巴胺、乙酰胆碱、去甲肾上腺素、肾上腺素或血清素。

And some of the more interesting ones involve boosting the levels of some neuromodulator, dopamine or acetylcholine or norepinephrine or epinephrine, serotonin.

但让我感到特别有趣的是，似乎只要提升其中任何一种物质的水平，就能引发可塑性。

But what's so interesting to me is that it seems like you can boost the levels of any of those and get plasticity.

并不是说只有某一种神经调节剂才能带来可塑性的机会。

It's not like one neuromodulator gives you the opportunity for plasticity.

许多关于致幻剂的有趣研究都使用了类似于血清素的致幻剂。

So many of the interesting studies on psychedelics are using psychedelics that are kind of like serotonin.

我的意思是，它们作用于不同的受体，但都具有很强的血清素活性。

I mean, they act on different receptors, but they're very serotonergic.

我提醒大家这一点，因为人们总是喜欢批评SSRI类药物，我同意它们确实存在一些问题和副作用，但它们也帮助了大量患者。

I remind people of this because people really like to beat up on SSRIs, I agree they have their problems and side effects, but they've also helped a great number of people.

但无论是SSRI还是裸盖菇素，它们都只是通过提升血清素来促进神经可塑性的工具。

But whether it's SSRIs or it's psilocybin, they're both just tools for plasticity that drive serotonin.

但我们知道，提升乙酰胆碱也能打开神经可塑性的窗口。

But we know you can amplify acetylcholine, get a window of plasticity.

这是一个推测性的问题，但你认为为什么各种神经调质都具有这种等效性——只要提升其中任何一种，就能开启可塑性、窗口或机会？

This is a speculative question, but why do you think it is that there's a sort of equipotential of neuromodulators where boosting any one of them can open plasticity or the window or the opportunity for plasticity.

好吧，关于这一点有几点要说。

Okay, a few things on this.

正如你所知，所有的神经调质都是相互交织、动态平衡的。

As you well know, you know, all the neuromodulators exist in a dance with each other.

从根本上说，我认为五十年后我们会明白，这其实是一种多重因素的组合锁。

And fundamentally, I think we're going to come to understand this in fifty years as, sort of combination locks of things.

而我们目前在科学中看待它的方式，往往是说，哦，这是乙酰胆碱，那是血清素。

And the way we keep looking at it in science currently is, ah, here's acetylcholine or here's serotonin.

所以，这种看待方式可能并不正确。

So it's probably not the right way to look at it.

这肯定也不是神经元看待世界的方式。

It's certainly not how the neurons are looking at it.

好的。

Okay.

不过，乙酰胆碱对我来说，似乎是参与可塑性的主要物质。

That said, acetylcholine really feels to me like the main one involved in plasticity.

当你还是婴儿时，乙酰胆碱遍布你的大脑各处。

When you are a baby, you've got acetylcholine going everywhere.

每当你试图理解这个世界，每当有什么事情与你的预期不符，乙酰胆碱就会大量释放，提醒你：我得弄清楚刚刚发生了什么，以及如何将它与我的行为联系起来，等等。

Whenever you're trying to figure out the world, whenever something's not matching a prediction and you've got acetylcholine going everywhere that says, hey, I got to figure out what just happened and how to link this with what I did and so on.

随着年龄增长，它更像是点彩派画家，只是在这里或那里轻轻点染。

As you get older, it's more like, you know, a pointillist artist who just dabs things here or there.

你体内的乙酰胆碱只在非常局部和很小的范围内释放。

You get acetylcholine is very locally and very in small places.

而正是在这些地方，你做出改变。

And that's where you make changes.

为什么？

Why?

这是因为，当你成年后，你对世界的认知模型变得越来越完善。

That's because as you get to be an adult, you've got a better and better model of the world.

你并不想改变一切。

You don't want to change everything.

你只是会调整一些细微的地方，比如，哦，我之前没注意到咖啡机上那个按钮能做这个新功能之类的。

You just change like, oh, I didn't realize there was that button on the coffee machine that did this new thing or whatever.

所以你只是在这里一点一点地做小调整。

So you just change little bits at a time here.

我们正处在一个在人类历史上非常特殊的情境中，现在我们可以做一些事情，比如：嘿，如果我们直接提高乙酰胆碱水平会怎样？

We're in this really interesting situation in in the history of our species where now we can do things like, hey, what if we just crank up acetylcholine?

或者，你知道的，我们早就对多巴胺做了很多干预。

Or, you know, obviously we've done lots of things with with dopamine.

我们总是发现，当调整这些物质时，情况会变得很复杂。

We always find when we tweak these things that it's complicated.

举个例子，帕金森病患者体内的多巴胺会减少。

Just as one example, you know, with Parkinson's, people get have less dopamine.

因此，药物的作用就是提高多巴胺水平。

And so the medications are to crank up the dopamine.

这引发了一个你可能听说过的故事，大约二十五年前，有经验的临床医生注意到，服用这些帕金森药物的人变得异常沉迷赌博。

What that led to you may know this fascinating story is probably twenty five years ago now where, you know, observant clinicians noted that people on these Parkinson's medications were becoming hyper compulsive gamblers.

他们把全家的积蓄都押在了拉斯维加斯的在线赌博上，等等。

They were blowing their family's fortune on online gambling in Las Vegas and so on.

他们意识到，当多巴胺水平升高时，会改变人的风险偏好，让人更愿意冒险。

And what they realize is when you crank up the dopamine, that changes your risk aversion such that people are taking it.

所以现在这已经成为模型上列出的禁忌症了。

So now it's a contraindication that's listed on the model.

如果你发现有人赌博，就降低这里的剂量。

You know, if you notice gambling, turn down the the the amount here.

所以无论如何，每当我们开始调整这些因素时，总会发现一些超出我们预测范围的事情。

So anyway, whenever we whenever we start dialing these around, we always find things that are a little bit out of our predictive realm.

但总体来说，你的大脑正在努力构建一个关于当前状况的模型，而且这个模型变得越来越完善。

But the general story is that your brain's trying to put together this model of what's going on as it gets better and better.

它所需的可塑性越来越低。

It's doing less and less plasticity.

不过我要指出的是，大脑的某些部分可塑性会降低，而其他部分则会终生保持可塑性。

I do want to point out, though, that parts of the brain become less plastic and others stay plastic your whole life.

例如，你的初级视觉皮层位于脑后部，很早就定型了。

As an example, your primary visual cortex is the back of the head that locks down early.

你很难再对它进行什么改变了。

You really can't do much change that.

多年前，洛戈特西斯实验室进行了一些研究，他们观察了成年猴子视网膜的变化，并预期会在猴子的视觉皮层中看到相应变化。

And, you know, there were studies by Logothetis lab years ago where they looked at changes to, let's say, the retina in an adult monkey, and they expected to see changes in the visual cortex of the monkey.

但他们根本没看到任何变化。

And they didn't see any changes at all.

这让他们感到惊讶，因为当时已有大量关于可塑性的文献。

And that surprised them, given all the plasticity literature.

但这是因为视觉皮层很早就定型了。

But it's because the visual cortex locks down.

相比之下，视觉皮层下游的那些区域，比如负责识别面孔、新快餐品牌等的区域，

In contrast, these downstream areas from the visual cortex that care about things like recognizing faces or new brands of fast food restaurants or whatever it is.

则会终身保持可塑性，因为这些领域不断有新的数据输入。

Those say plastic your whole life because there's constantly new data coming in on those.

所以总体来说，初级区域就像我所想的软件内核一样——举个例子，如果你在微软，有些代码部分从来没人碰过，因为那就像加法和乘法这样的基础功能。

So the general story is the primary areas are like the I think about it like the the software kernels where, you know, if you're at Microsoft, for example, there's parts of the code that no one ever touches because that's like how to add two numbers and multiply whatever.

那就是代码的内核。

That's the kernel of the code.

你从不碰它。

You never touch it.

但在其上层会构建出越来越高级的应用层。

But you get these higher and higher application layers on top of that.

这就是看待初级感觉皮层及其下游所有区域的正确方式。

That's essentially how to think about primary sensory cortices and then all the stuff downstream from there.

这个类比完美地说明了人们应当如何面对挑战。

Perfect analogy for people to understand how much challenge to embrace.

我的意思是，你并不是在试图对整个系统进行碎片整理。

I mean, you're not trying to defrag the whole system.

我提到了致幻剂。

And I mentioned psychedelics.

我认为它们确实有一些有趣的治疗潜力。

I do think they have some interesting therapeutic potential.

我也担心，我可以告诉你一些人被‘一次性击倒’的例子。

I also worry about, and I can tell you examples of people that got, I guess nowadays they call it one shotted.

他们只服用几次鸦片酊，就永久地改变了，但这种改变并不利于他们。

They take Ayahuasca a couple times and they are forever different in ways that does not serve them.

这些例子不像那些似乎从这些物质中获益的许多人那样经常被提及。

Those examples don't get talked about quite as often as the also many people who, you know, seem to benefit from these things.

所以，可塑性似乎并不是目标。

So plasticity, it seems, is not the goal.

有方向的可塑性才是目标。

Directed plasticity is the goal.

没错。

That's right.

而要实现有方向性非常困难。

And it's very hard to direct.

所以我觉得，假设你可以服用某种神经递质混合物，让你的大脑完全可塑。

So I feel like, you know, let's imagine you could take some cocktail of neurotransmitters and get total plasticity of your brain.

我不认为你会想要那样。

I don't think you'd want that.

你将不再是原来的你。

You wouldn't be you anymore.

我们是谁，是由我们的记忆和所掌握的技能共同构成的。

Who we are is the sum of our memories and the sum of our skills that we have built.

而且，你知道的，它一直在变化。

And, you know, that keeps changing.

我们始终是一个移动的目标，五年或十年后的你会变得不同。

We're always a moving target and who you will be in five or ten years will be different.

但我认为我们并不想要婴儿般的可塑性，即使当你在学习语言时，你会说：‘真希望我能像七岁时那样学得那么好。’

But I don't think we'd want the plasticity of an infant, even though when you're doing, let's say, language learning, you say, Oh, I wish I could learn this as well as I did when I was seven.

但总的来说，我认为你不会渴望这种状态。

But generally it's not a state that you would desire, I think.

如果你是《胡伯曼实验室播客》的常驻听众，你肯定听过我谈论维生素、矿物质和益生菌饮品AG1。

If you're a regular listener of the Huberman Lab Podcast, you've no doubt heard me talk about the vitamin mineral probiotic drink AG1.

如果你还在犹豫要不要尝试，现在正是绝佳的机会。

And if you've been on the fence about it, now's an awesome time to give it a try.

在未来几周内，AG1 将为首次订阅 AG1 的用户免费赠送一套完整的补充剂礼包。

For the next few weeks, AG1 is giving away a full supplement package with your first subscription to AG1.

他们将免费赠送一瓶维生素 D3K2、一瓶 Omega-3 鱼油胶囊，以及全新睡眠配方 AGZ 的试用装——顺便说一句，这现在是我唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。

They're giving away a free bottle of vitamin D3K2, a bottle of omega-three fish oil capsules, and a sample pack of the new sleep formula AGZ, which by the way is now the only sleep supplement I take.

这太棒了。

It's fantastic.

服用 AGZ 后，我的睡眠质量好得不可思议。

My sleep on AGZ is out of this world good.

AGZ 是一种饮品，因此无需服用大量药片。

AGZ is a drink, so it eliminates the need to take a lot of pills.

味道非常好。

It tastes great.

正如我所说，它让我睡得非常好，醒来时比以往任何时候都更精神焕发。

And like I said, it has me sleeping incredibly well, waking up more refreshed than ever.

我非常喜欢它。

I absolutely love it.

再次提醒，这是一个限时优惠。

Again, this is a limited time offer.

所以请立即前往 drinkag1.com/huberman 开始领取。

So make sure to go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started today.

你多次提到未来的自己。

You've mentioned a few times future self.

我认为我们所有人本质上都关心未来的自己，以及过去的经历、当下的行动，以及我们未来能掌控的事情，是否能让我们成为最好的自己，对吧？

I think all of us are inherently interested in our future selves, and whether the things of our past, present, and what we have control over going forward is going to put us in the best future self possible, right?

人类喜欢优化，或者幻想最优状态。

Humans love to optimize or fantasize about optimal.

但我们应该如何思考自己的未来自我呢？

But how should we think about thinking about our future self?

还是说我们不应该这么做？

Or should we not do that?

对吧？

Right?

我们是否应该直接避开这种循环，变得真正斯多葛一些，只活在十分钟或一分钟的时间片段里？

Should we just avoid that loop de loop and get real stoic about it and just live in ten minute time blocks or one minute time blocks.

这引发了一个非常有趣的问题：我们应该将时间视野设定在多长，才能不仅感觉最好，而且成为最好的自己，并在未来持续保持最佳状态？

It raises a really interesting question, I think, of where should we set our time horizon to not just feel the best, but to be our best and to feel our best going forward?

是的。

Yeah.

我们能够思考未来的自己，这是人类最独特的地方。

Our capacity to think about our future selves is the most special part of being humans.

如果我们不这么做，如果我们说‘我就要享受当下’，那就吃掉纸杯蛋糕，做所有那些不会有利于你未来自我的事情。

And if we didn't do it, if we said I'm going to be stoked about it, you eat the cupcake and you do what I think all the things that wouldn't serve your future self.

别像真正的斯多葛主义者那样从不吃纸杯蛋糕，然后活活饿死。

Never eat the cupcake like a real stoic and then starve to death.

对。

Right.

即使纸杯蛋糕是唯一的选择。

Even if the cupcake were the only thing.

对。

Right.

斯多葛主义者会怎么做？

What would the stoic do?

没错。

That's right.

实际上，我们大部分时间并不活在当下。

So, we actually spend most of our time not in the here and now.

我们回忆过去，同时模拟可能的未来。

We're reminiscing about the past and we're simulating possible futures.

你的大脑就像一座电影院。

Your mind is a movie theater.

我们不断思考事情的发展方向。

We're constantly thinking about where things are going.

但这很棒。

But this is great.

这正是我们能够成功完成人类所有事情的原因。

This is what makes us able to do all the things that that humans do successfully.

在我们的生活中，这一点至关重要，因为我们能够思考：我现在想成为什么样的人？

And in our own lives, this matters so much because we're able to think about who do I want to be now?

正如你所知，我们的大脑中存在着一种内在的冲突。

As you know, we've got this rivalry in the brain.

你脑海中同时有各种声音在响，多个不同的神经网络在运行。

You've got all these voices going on at the same time, all these different networks running.

所以，例如，如果我把一块纸杯蛋糕放在你面前，派对脑会想吃掉它。

So, for example, if I put the cupcake down in front of you, you know, party brain wants to eat that.

它太美味了。

It's delicious.

它是一种富含能量的来源。

It's a rich energy source.

派对脑却说：别吃它。

Party brain says, don't eat it.

你知道，我想保持健康。

You know, I want to stay fit.

所以我参与其中。

And so I'm part of it.

没关系。

It's okay.

也许我会吃一点，但稍后我会去健身房。

Maybe I'll eat part of it, but I'll go to the gym later.

或者，我向女朋友保证我会去做这件事。

Or, you know, I promise my girlfriend that I'll go do this thing.

你看，我们有这么多声音。

Like, we've got all these voices.

你可以责骂自己。

You can cuss at yourself.

你可以控制自己。

You can control yourself.

你可以和自己签订契约。

You can contract with yourself.

问题是，哪个部分在和哪个部分对话？

And the question is, who's talking to whom?

这都是你，但你内心有不同的部分，各自有不同的驱动力。

It's all you, but it's parts of you that have these different drives.

我们真正了不起的地方在于，虽然我们有很多短期的欲望，但我们也具备展望未来、思考自己想成为什么样的人的能力。

Now, the part that's really amazing about us is we've got lots of short term drives, but we also have this capacity to look into the future and think about who we want to be.

这种能力主要依赖于我们的前额叶皮层，正如我们之前提到的，它的大小在人类中是独一无二的。

And that is essentially subserved by our prefrontal cortex, which, as we mentioned earlier, is something that is, know, the size of it is unique to humans.

我们所有最接近的动物近亲都没有前额叶皮层。

All of our closest cousins in the animal kingdom don't have a prefrontal cortex.

它们的前额叶皮层只有我们的很小一部分。

That's a fraction of what we have.

这正是让我们能够脱离当下、超越即时冲动的原因。

That's what allows us to unhook from the here and now.

好吧，现在来说重点。

Okay, now here's the thing.

我长期以来一直对这一点感到着迷：我们有时明明知道，未来的自己在这种情况下面临诱惑时会做出糟糕的决定。

I have been fascinated by this for a long time about how we sometimes know, Okay, my future self is going to act badly in this situation.

所以我现在就要采取行动，让未来的自己无法做出糟糕的选择。

So I'm going to do something now so that my future self can't act badly.

这正是我下一本著作的主题。

So this is the topic of my next book.

这本书叫《尤利西斯契约》。

It's called The Ulysses Contract.

这个术语的来源是《奥德赛》。

And where this term comes from is in the Odyssey.

奥德修斯，也就是尤利西斯，从特洛伊战争后回家途中，意识到前方即将经过塞壬岛。

Odysseus, otherwise known as Ulysses, is coming home from the Trojan War, and he realizes that way up ahead, he's going to pass the Island Of The Sirens.

那里有美丽的女性生物，唱着极其动听的歌声。

We've got these beautiful female creatures who sing these songs that are so beautiful.

这令水手们无法抗拒，所有人都撞上岩石丧命。

It beggars the mind of the sailors and and everyone crashes into the rocks and dies.

尤利西斯非常想听这首歌，但他知道，像任何凡人一样，他会因此着迷并撞上岩石。

Ulysses really wants to hear the song, but he knows, like any mortal man, he's going to fall for this and crash the rocks.

那么他做了什么？

So what does he do?

他让手下把他绑在桅杆上，这样他就无法动弹。

He has his men lash him to the mess so he can't move.

他让手下用蜂蜡堵住他们的耳朵，这样他们就听不见任何声音。

He has them put beeswax in their ears so they can't do anything.

他告诉他们，无论我做什么，无论我如何尖叫，都继续前进。

And he tells them, no matter what I do, no matter how much I'm screaming, just keep going.

继续说‘明智’。

Just keep saying smart.

对。

Right.

这很聪明，因为处于清醒状态的奥德修斯正在为未来的自己制定契约，而他知道未来的自己会做出不理智的行为。

It's smart because what is happening is the Ulysses of sound mind is making a contract for the future Ulysses, who he knows is going to behave badly.

所以他把自己绑在桅杆上。

So he's lashing him to the mess.

让我着迷的是，我们在生活中经常以各种方式这样做。

And what I've been fascinated by is the ways that we do this in our lives all the time.

你几分钟前举的例子——把手机锁在那种锁箱里——就是一个完美的例子，因为你确保了两小时后的安德鲁无法做出错误的决定，因为你知道，他可能会受到诱惑。

So the example you gave a few minutes ago about locking up your phone in one of these lock boxes is a perfect example, because what you're making sure is that the Andrew of two hours from now can't do the wrong thing because, you know, he might you know, he's going to be tempted.

所以你消除了这种诱惑。

So you take away that temptation.

顺便说一下，我最近遇到一位年长的先生，他告诉我，多年前他曾认识一位女士，她会把现金冻在冰箱里的冰块中，这样除非真的急需用钱，否则她就花不了。

By the way, I recently met an older gentleman who told me about an older woman that he'd met years ago who used to take her money, her cash, and freeze it in a block of ice in the freezer so that she couldn't spend the money until she really needed it.

是的，我在花钱方面没什么问题。

Yeah, I don't have a money spending thing.

而且我在手机和社交媒体方面的自控力其实挺好的。

And I actually have pretty good control with with the phone and with social media.

对我来说，这也不算是一种病态的愉悦。

For me, there's also a I don't want to call it a sick pleasure.

知道某件事完全被禁止，反而带来一点快感，因为这意味着我连看上十秒都不行。

There's a bit of a pleasure in knowing that it's completely off limits because it means I can't even look at it for ten seconds.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我觉得这涉及到一种对那些试图控制我的事物的掌控感。

I think it involves something over control of things that I feel like are trying to control me.

是的，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

不喜欢。

Do not like.

没错。

Exactly.

因为你关心未来的自己，希望未来的安德鲁能做出正确的选择。

Because you care about your future self and you want future Andrew to do the right thing.

所以，实现这些尤利西斯契约的方式有无数种。

So there are a million ways to make these Ulysses contracts.

我研究这个已经好几年了，而且。

I've been studying this for years and I.

所以我决定写一本关于这个的书，因为我们对待未来自我的方式实在太有趣了，因为你的未来自我和现在的你并不完全一样。

So I decided to write a book on this because the way that we deal with our future selves is just this fascinating thing because your future self is a little different than who you are now.

但随着时间推移，我们逐渐明白，未来自我在不同情境下会做出糟糕的行为。

But with time, we come to understand that our future self will behave badly in different situations.

因此，我们只是试图切断这些可能性。

And so we just try to to cut those off.

我来举几个例子。

I'll give I'll give a couple of examples.

其中一个方法是巧妙地利用社会压力，这非常有效。

One is it's super useful to get social pressure involved.

所以，我猜你和我都这么做。

So, for example, I'm guessing you and I both do this.

你知道，去健身房是我们喜欢做的事，但找一个伙伴一起约定好‘明天早上八点健身房见’会非常有用。

You know, going to the gym is something we enjoy, but it's really useful to have a buddy where you say, hey, I'll meet you at the gym at eight tomorrow morning.

即使你早上醒来觉得有点累，肩膀疼或者别的什么原因，你也得去，因为他会等你——所以利用社交压力是个好主意。

And then even if you wake up, you're a little tired, your shoulder hurts or whatever, you got to go because he's going be So getting social pressure involves a good idea.

我发现了一个这样的健身营，你报名参加后，

I found this thing where it's a boot camp where you sign up for it.

每天早上大家一起慢跑、做俯卧撑之类的。

And every morning, you know, go jogging together and do push ups or whatever.

但如果你没出现，整个小组就会跑到你家，站在你前院做开合跳，大声喊你的名字，直到你出来为止。

But if you don't show up, the group jogs to your house and they stand on your front lawn and they do jumping jacks, jumping jacks, they scream your name until you come out.

太惊人了。

Amazing.

是的。

Yeah.

承诺参与这类事情真的很有帮助，这样你才会真正去参加。

It's really good to get that to commit to that sort of thing so that you're really going to show up.

有一种方法是把钱押上去。

There are ways to do this where you put money on the line.

比如，有一位女士试图戒烟，她多年来一直努力戒烟。

So you can say, for example, there was a woman who was trying to quit smoking and she tried for years to quit smoking.

于是她写了一张一万美元的支票，交给朋友，并说：如果你发现我吸烟，就把这张支票捐给三K党，这在她看来是用她的钱所能想到的最令人厌恶的事。

So what she did is she wrote a $10,000 check and gave it to her friend and said, if you catch me smoking, I want you to donate this check to the KKK, which to her was the most aversive thing that could ever happen with her money.

正是这种知道自己的钱会被捐给三K党的痛苦，阻止了她吸烟，因为这简直是最糟糕的想象。

And that's what prevented her from smoking, because the sting of knowing that she gave her money to KKK was the worst thing that she could imagine.

因此，实现这种尤利西斯契约的方式有成千上万种。

So there are million ways to do these Ulysses contracts.

但它们的共同点是：你如何把自己绑在桅杆上，以维持你想要的良好行为？

But what they have in common is how do you lash yourself to the mask so you'll keep the good behavior you want?

是的。

Yeah.

这位女士写支票的例子很有趣，因为我会问，为什么她不能依靠内心的意志力呢？

The example of this woman writing the check is interesting because I could ask why couldn't she access her inner clearly has a lot of inner fight.

对吧？

Right?

比如，她如此坚定地站在某一立场上，我同意，三K党这个可怕的组织根本不可能希望得到她的任何支持。

Like, really stands so strongly in one camp, which I agree the KKK horrible organization would never want to support them in any way whatsoever.

但她还是需要这么做。

And and yet she needed to do that.

对吧？

Right?

她需要一种惩罚，一种潜在的惩罚。

She needed a punishment, a potential punishment.

这说明了，即使我们在当下清楚地知道并强烈感受到某件事，要做出最好的选择依然非常困难。

And so it speaks to how even if we know something and feel something so strongly in the present, it still becomes very hard to access our best choices.

但关于未来的自己，我们尚未成为的那个自己，我们对未来的自己感到如此恐惧，以至于无法忍受当前自我的不适。

But there's something about the future self that we're not even in yet, that we fear our future self so much more than than we can't handle the the discomfort of our present self.

这几乎就像是，我们通过这种尤利西斯契约将两者绑定在一起。

It's almost like and so we tether those in this Ulysses contract.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种智慧，让我们明白自己在非当下、非清醒理性状态时会如何行为。

It's a kind of wisdom that we come to understand how we will behave when we're not in our present, you know, sober, rational moment.

比如，那些试图戒酒的酗酒者。

Come to understand, for example, people who are trying, who are alcoholics and they're trying to break that.

他们在匿名戒酒会得到的第一个建议是：把家里所有的酒都清掉，因为你可能会想，好吧，我已经戒了。

The first thing they're told at Alcoholics Anonymous is clear all the alcohol out of your house because you might think, Okay, I'm done.

我坚决不会再喝酒了。

I'm firmly going to not drink anymore.

于是你把酒放在高架子上。

So you put the alcohol away up in a high shelf.

但在某个庆祝的周五晚上，或孤独的周日晚上，你可能会去拿它。

But on a festive Friday night or a lonely Sunday night or something, you might go up there.

你的未来自我可能会这么做。

Your future self might do that.

所以你要做的是消除诱惑。

So what you do is you get rid of the temptation.

对于试图戒除药物成瘾的人也是如此。

Same thing with people who are trying to battle drug addictions.

他们被告诫随身不要带超过20美元的现金，因为某时某刻你可能会跑去找一个卖毒品的人。

They're told never carry more than $20 of cash in your pocket because at some point you're to run to some guy who's trying to sell you drugs.

如果你身上有钱，那钱就会让你坐立不安。

And if you got the money, it's burning a hole in your pocket.

去买毒品吧。

Buy the drugs.

当我们处于反思时刻时，我认为我们不能信任未来的自己。

I don't think we can trust our future selves when we're in a moment of reflection.

我们能思考

We can think

自己想成为怎样的人。

about who we want to be.

值得设立一些界限。

It's worth setting into place some walls.

所以这主要是关于避免不良行为。

So that's about avoiding bad behaviors.

那么，关于朝着更好的自我前进呢？当我们试图构想一个更优秀的自己，并且需要主动去做一些事情时，情况又是怎样的？

What about building toward future self where we're trying to envision a better version of ourselves as it involves actively doing things?

因此，要成为更好的自己，总有一些该做和不该做的事。

So there's always do's and don'ts in order to become our better self.

当乌利西斯契约不涉及塞壬，而是关于我们希望成为这样的人、拥有这些品质，或者已经完成某些事，并试图将未来的自己与当下的行为联系起来时，它又如何发挥作用？

How does Ulysses Contract play in when it's not about the sirens, when it's about knowing that we want to be this person or have these attributes or having done something and trying to tie our future self to our present behavior?

总的来说，我们在这一点上做得怎么样？

How good are we at that in general?

是的。

Yeah.

是更好还是更差于避免不良行为？

Better or worse than avoiding bad behavior?

我们在这方面简直糟透了。

Oh, we're terrible at all this stuff.

拿新年决心来说吧。

I mean, take New Year's resolutions.

每个人都会立新年决心。

I mean, everybody makes New Year's resolutions.

但这些决心很少能撑过一两周就放弃了。

They rarely last a week or two before they drop off.

人们忙起来，累了，或者各种原因。

People get busy, people get tired or whatever.

所以对于积极的事情，同样重要的是要把它们和这些机制联系起来。

So it's just as important with the positive things to hook things to that.

比如，把钱押上这个想法，就有一些网站可以做到这一点。

For example, this idea of putting money on the line, there are various websites where you can do this.

你说：好吧，我押50美元，赌自己到某个日期前能卧推50磅，类似这样的事情。

You say, Okay, look, I'm going to put, you know, $50 on the line that I want to be able to bench to 50 by this date, something like that.

然后你就把钱交给这家公司，你必须达到那个目标。

And then you've given your money to this company and you have to get to that point.

这样你才能拿回你的钱。

So you get your money back.

有很多方法可以做到这一点。

There are lots of ways to do this.

你知道，我猜你不久前请过詹姆斯·克利尔做客。

You know, obviously putting you know, I think you had James Clear on a little while ago.

他提出了很多好主意，比如把跑鞋放在门口之类的，让事情变得更容易。

And there there's all kinds of good ideas that he's got about, you know, put your running shoes near the door or whatever so that it's easy.

你通过消除障碍来促成这些行为。

You get the you get rid of the friction to go do things like that.

但所有这些举措都是为了未来的你。

But all of those moves are for your future self.

当你在睡觉前把鞋子放在门口时，你这么做是因为你知道未来的你会比较懒惰和疲惫。

When you put your shoes near the door before you go to sleep that night, you are doing something because you know your future self is going to be a little bit lazy and tired.

我有一些朋友，我就直接当面这么叫他们了，因为是友好的交流，他们有点神经质。

I have friends that are I'll just call them what what I would call them to their face because it's a friendly exchange are kind of neurotic.

对吧？

Right?

他们容易想太多。

They tend to overthink things.

如果他们打算早上八点去跑步，但到了八点零二分，他们就会觉得不行，因为现在是八点零二分，不是整八点。

If they're going to go running at 8AM and it's 08:02, they're like, can't go because it's 08:02, not eight.

我九点再去。

I'll go at nine.

必须得在整点做，诸如此类。

Got to do it on the hour, this kind of thing.

而我知道有些人就是直接去做，不太去纠结，他们擅长压制内心的声音。

And then I know people who are like, you just do things and you don't think about it as much, and they're good at suppressing that voice.

我们以为他们内心没有那种杂念和焦虑，但我认为其实还是有的。

I think we assume that the chatter, the neuroses doesn't exist for them, but I think it does.

他们只是更擅长忽略内心的声音。

They're just better at saying like ignoring that inner voice.

我们从未被教导过如何做到这一点。

We're never trained how to do this.

我们小时候从未有人教过我们，什么时候需要认真思考和斟酌，什么时候只需要直接去做。

We're never taught as kids, here's when you need to really think and deliberate, and here's when you just need to just do it.

是的。

Yeah.

想想不同的职业道路、不同的生活需求等等，这很有趣。

And it's interesting to think about, okay, different career paths, different life requirements, and so forth.

但我觉得人们在这一点上大致可以分为两类。

But I feel like people fall into kind of two camps with this.

有些人需要少思考、多行动，而有些人可能确实还需要多做，但或许应该更多地反思自己的行为，他们俩大概都会说：‘我在这方面有点疯。’

Some people need to think and analyze less and do more, and some people actually need to probably still do, but maybe think a little bit more about their behavior and reflect a bit more, and they would probably both say, I'm crazy about this.

我不会告诉你我属于哪一类。

I won't tell you where I land.

我觉得我处于中间位置。

I think I'm kind of in the middle.

不。

No.

我开玩笑的。

I'm just kidding.

这取决于手头的事情。

It it depends on on what's at hand

是的。

Yeah.

我认为对大多数人来说是这样。

For for most people, I think.

你觉得这背后的原因是什么？

What do you think that's about?

是能够抑制各种版本的自己，还是不能？

The ability to suppress the various versions of oneself or not?

是的。

Yeah.

内在的声音。

The inner voice.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗，我认为神经科学中对我们来说最令人着迷的发现之一，就是无论我们测量什么，都存在一个连续谱。

You know, I would say one of the most fascinating things we've discovered in neuroscience to for my money is is just this issue that along anything we measure, there's a spectrum.

所以，就拿内在声音来说吧。

So just take something like the internal voice.

比如我妻子，她形容它就像她内心的收音机。

For my wife, for example, she describes it as her inner radio.

她总是能听到自己的内心声音。

She's always hearing her inner voice.

我其实没有这种声音。

I don't really have one.

我就是从来听不到那个声音。

I just never hear that.

所以我们在这一点上处于光谱的两端。

So we're on opposite ends of the spectrum that way.

但我研究过从无相症到超相症的整个范围。

But, you know, one of the things I've studied is aphantasia all the way to hyperphantasia.

意思是，如果我让你想象一只蚂蚁正爬过桌布朝一个紫色果酱罐子前进，有些人会在脑海中看到像电影一样的画面，这叫超相症。

That means when, you know, if I ask you to visualize an ant crawling on a tablecloth towards a jar of purple jelly, some people see it like a movie in their head that's called hyperphantasia.

有些人脑海中完全没有任何画面，这叫无相症。

Some people have no picture at all in their head that's called aphantasia.

而每个人都在这个光谱上的某个位置。

And everywhere is everyone is somewhere in between on the spectrum.

中间状态是什么样的？

What does it the middle look like?

如果我这么做，也许现在每个人都可以试试。

So if I do that, if I maybe everyone can do this right now.

所以这是一个有趣的实验。

So a fun experiment.

如果你在开车，别闭上眼睛。

If you're driving, don't close your eyes.

我脑海中浮现出太阳从山后升起，阳光穿透云层的画面。

I picture a sun coming over the mountain and the rays of the sun poking through the clouds.

然后开始下雨，雨点倾盆而下。

And then it starts raining and rains coming down.

所以问题是，你看到的画面是否像电影一样清晰，还是完全没有任何视觉图像，或者介于两者之间？

So the question is, do you see it as clearly as a movie or do you have really no visual anything in your head or you somewhere in between?

通常，这会用一到五分的量表来评估，五分代表像电影一样清晰。

Typically, is judged on a scale from one to five or five is a movie.

一分代表完全没有视觉图像。

One is no visual at all.

而三分则是介于两者之间。

And, you know, three is in between.

你在这个尺度上处于什么位置？

Where do you stand on that?

我觉得我能在心里‘看到’它，但那几乎像是在看它的剪影。

I feel like I can see it, quote, unquote, in my mind's eye, but it's almost like I'm looking at a silhouette of it.

所以，尽管我想看到明亮的、阳光洒下的光芒——这是我生活中最喜爱的景象之一，我知道它们存在，但实际呈现的却是淡淡的淡黄色。

So even though I wanna see bright, you know, rays of sun sunshine, one of my favorite things in life, I know they're there, but they're actually pale pale yellow.

这几乎像是比现实中的情况更不透明。

It's almost as if it's more opaque than it would be in real life.

是的。

Yeah.

你是说，那些具有超强想象力的人，看到的画面至少和我用手机看到的一样清晰？

You're saying people with it with hyper hyperphantasia see it as a at least the same way I would on on my phone.

基本上，是的。

Essentially, yes.

他们看到的就像真正的视觉一样。

They're seeing it like like vision.

事实上，我是个非常棒的倾听者，所以这非常困难。

Now, I happen to be a fantastic, so it's very hard.

你知道，我研究这个已经很多年了。

You know, I've studied this for years.

我为此采访过数百人。

I've interviewed hundreds of people on this.

所以我能听到他们的描述，但我自己却无法在脑海中描绘出那样的画面。

And so I get their description, but I can't I can't picture that myself.

顺便说一下，这有个有趣的短暂插曲。

By the way, it's an interesting quick tangent.

多年来，我一直和埃德·卡特穆尔讨论这个问题。

For years, I've talked with Ed Catmull about this.

埃德·卡特穆尔就是创立皮克斯的人。

Ed Catmull is the guy who started Pixar.

皮克斯制作了这么多出色的动画电影等等。

Pixar with all these terrific animated films and so on.

埃德拥有大量关于如何进行光线追踪的专利，让这些动画角色看起来如此惊艳。

Ed has all these patents on like how to do ray tracing to get the, you know, to get these animated characters looking as amazing as they do.

当他发现自己患有心像缺失症时，他感到非常惊讶。

He was surprised when he discovered that he was a Fantasia.

他在脑海中无法形成任何图像。

He doesn't picture anything in his head.

因此，他最终给皮克斯的每个人发了一份问卷。

So he ended up giving this questionnaire to everybody at Pixar.

结果发现，他最优秀的导演和动画师中，大多数都是心像缺失症患者。

And it turns out most of his best directors and animators are aphantasia.

他们在脑海中看不到任何东西。

They don't see anything in their head.

我想，没有人会预料到这一点，因为这似乎很奇怪——皮克斯如此依赖视觉想象力。

And nobody, I think, would have predicted that because it seems so strange, this visual, you know, magisterium of of Pixar.

但我对为什么会这样有一个假设。

But I have a hypothesis about why this is.

这是因为，一个患有想象障碍的孩子在被要求画一匹马时，旁边那个视觉想象力丰富的孩子会直接画出来，因为他脑子里清楚马长什么样。

It's because the kid who grows up, who's aphantasia, when they're asked, Okay, draw a horse, you know, the kid sitting next to them who's hyperphantasia, because I know what a horse looks like.

但那个患有想象障碍的孩子却必须仔细观察，慢慢琢磨：哦，原来是这样。

Just draws But the poor aphantasia kid has to really stare and figure out like, oh, that okay.

这到底是怎么运作的？

How does that work?

以此类推。

And so on.

因此，他们反而因此画得越来越好。

And and they get better at drawing as a result.

这就是为什么他最优秀的动画师和画师都是从小患有想象障碍的人。

And that's why all his best animators and drawers are people who grew up aphantasia.

有意思。

Interesting.

我刚刚在想那部电影。

I'm just thinking about that movie.

你看过那部电影《百变星君》吗？

Have you seen that movie Bowfinger?

没有。

No.

就是史蒂夫·马丁和埃迪·墨菲主演的那部？

With with Steve Martin and Eddie Murphy?

Bowfinger，对于只听的人而言，就是你把两个L形拼成一个反L形的样子。

Where is Bowfinger is the you know, for those just listening, it's where you put kinda make two, you know, l an l and a and a sort of a reverse l.

这部电影讲的是在洛杉矶拍电影的故事，特别搞笑。

And it's like how you know, it's about making a movie in LA, and it's it's hilarious.

简直笑到爆。

It's it's spectacularly funny.

里面有我刚提到的那两位，还有希瑟·格拉汉姆，以及一堆其他演员。

It's got those two folks I just mentioned, Heather Graham, bunch of other people.

但他一直在四处奔波，想象着这就是那部电影。

But but he's constantly going around and kind of envisioning, you know, that this This is the movie.

所以我一直觉得，拍电影的人在生活中总是想着：好吧，这是镜头，那是镜头。

And so I always thought people that make movies are going through life thinking, okay, like there's the shot and there's the shot.

但我觉得你意思是，在两者之间，人们有一种幻想生活，比如：这是剧本。

But I think what you're saying is that there's somewhere in between where people have this kind of fantasy life of like, okay, here's the script.

然后他们真的无法想象出来。

And then they can't really imagine it.

所以他们必须付出更多努力来将其实现。

And so they have to put more work into materializing it.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Okay.

他们是在与页面对话。

Well, they have a dialogue with the page.

所以如果你是个画图的人，嗯。

So if you're a guy drawing Mhmm.

而且，你知道，当你看着马，或者想象爱丽儿美人鱼长什么样，你都在尝试线条、涂改、不断尝试。

And, you know, you're looking at the horse or you're picturing what, you know, Ariel the mermaid looks like or whatever, you're you're trying lines and scratching and doing things.

你不会直接坐下来就说：‘我知道美人鱼长什么样’，然后画出来。

You don't come to the table or say, oh, I know what a mermaid looks like, and you draw it.

所以他们只是获得了更多练习，也因此变得更好。

So they just end up getting more practice and they get better at it.

我特别喜欢这部分内容，因为我们在讨论的其实是——正如你提到的，每个人都有各自独特的‘硬件’和‘软件’，但也存在一些共性。

I love this stuff because what we're really getting at here is, know, I think, as you mentioned, everyone has kind of individualized hardware and software, but there are some commonalities.

如果我们能像了解宏量营养素那样，知道哪些能力是通用的，而每个人根据自身情况需要不同比例的训练，那该有多棒。

And wouldn't it be spectacular if we knew which, just like we learn, okay, here are the macronutrients and you perhaps want them in different proportions depending on who you are and what you need.

作为孩子，你应当学习如何攀爬、奔跑，假设有条件的话，还要稍微跳一跳。

And you need to, as a kid, you should probably learn how to climb and run and assuming you have access to all of that and jump a little bit.

但你可能不会成为运动员，不过你总得在某个阶段保持活跃。

But maybe you won't be an athlete, but you need to be active at some point.

我们往往发现自己擅长什么，然后就一头扎进那些领域里深耕。

We tend to figure out what we're good at and then really lean into those trenches.

到那时，我们就开始为此接受评估了。

And then by then we're getting evaluated for it.

而我们的评估方式决定了我们的职业轨迹。

And the way we're evaluated puts us on a career track.

几乎没有机会回去补上遗漏的部分。

There's very little opportunity to go back and fill in blanks.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，我——

There's, you know, I-

没错。

That's right.

我永远不会成为音乐家，部分原因是我根本不愿意投入那么多精力，因为还有其他事情我更愿意用我的可塑性去追求，对吧？

I'm never gonna be a musician in part because I'm just not willing to put in the work, because there are other things I'd rather do with my plasticity, right?

所以，也许这样最好。

So, and maybe that's best.

所以，从宏观角度来看。

So big picture question.

你认为人类的进化和科技的发展，是否反映了人们被固化在不同职业轨道上，而总体而言，这正在推动我们物种的进步，对吧？

Do you think that human evolution and the progress of building technologies reflects the fact that people get siloed into different tracks, and on the whole, that's advancing our species, right?

有些人仍然是出色的猎人和采集者，有些人制造武器，还有些人开发人工智能技术。

You've got people that are hunter gatherers still very good at that and building And other people building weaponry and other people building AI technologies.

如果每个人都接受核心神经可塑性训练，学习一点各种技能，反而会对我们的物种造成损害。

That it would be detrimental to our species if everybody got sort of a core neuroplasticity training, learning how to do a little bit of everything.

对吧？

Right?

还是说，我们所看到的偶然性，正是人类成为地球守护者的原因之一——不仅因为前额叶皮层，也不仅因为延长的可塑期，更因为我们被赋予了不同的机会来利用这种可塑性？

Or is that what we see as chance actually part of the reasons why humans are the curators of the earth, not just the prefrontal cortex, not just the extended window of plasticity, but how we are afforded different opportunities to work with that plasticity.

是的。

Yeah.

我想说几点

I'd say a couple