最佳活力与健康方案 | 罗达·帕特里克博士

这就像你提到的冷水浸泡，对吧？

It's like you talk about with cold plunging, right?

就是，特别不舒服，你根本不想做。

Like, you you just it's so unpleasant, and you don't wanna do it.

但你还是去做了，这正是你在培养的心理韧性。

And, like, you do it, and it's like that mental toughness that you're building.

对吧？

Right?

我做这些力量训练的时候，体验的就是这种感觉。

I that's what I experience when I'm doing these, you know, strength training exercises that I'm doing.

我不知道会不会变得容易些。

And and I don't know if it's gonna get easier.

也许会吧。

Maybe it will.

但到现在还没变容易。

It hasn't yet.

我仍然很害怕，但我还是会去做。

I still I still dread it, but I do it.

我为自己坚持做这件事感到骄傲。

And I'm proud of myself for doing it.

但这确实很难。

But it is it's definitely hard.

我认为我在心理上，当然也在身体上，正在变得更强。

And I am getting stronger, I think, mentally and obviously physically as well.

但我还得加上有氧运动。

But I have to add in the aerobic as well, though.

我觉得这非常重要。

I think that's really important.

这是你的基础。

That's your base.

是的，你很喜欢。

Yeah, you love it.

我喜欢它。

I love it.

我认为心肺功能对长期健康非常重要，当然，增肌和力量训练也同样重要。

And I do think cardiorespiratory fitness is very important for long term health, well as obviously building muscle and strength.

一方面，作为朋友，我希望你能少讨厌重训。

Well, on the one hand, I want for you as a friend to fort you to hate the heavy work less.

但另一方面，我不希望这样，因为根据这些研究文献——我相信你很熟悉——前扣带回皮层这个脑区在整个生命周期中都具有高度可塑性，这在大脑区域中非常罕见，当我们做自己不喜欢的事情时，它会增大。

On the other hand, I don't because of this literature, I'm sure you're familiar with it, but the anterior mid cingulate cortex, this brain area that is hyperplastic throughout the lifespan, which is rare for a brain area, and it enlarges when we do things we don't want to do.

我的意思是，这不仅仅关乎做困难的事，而是关乎做你讨厌的那件困难的事。

I mean, it's so clear, it's not just about doing hard things, it's about doing the hard thing you hate.

对你来说，听起来像是复合力量训练；对我而言，是的，我不喜欢冷水浴，所以我才做它，我不觉得它有什么神奇之处，我只是认为它是一个明确的刺激，能让我在心理上变得更强大。我认为，拥有一件你非常讨厌但知道对你有益的事情，有助于保持前扣带回皮层的体积不减或继续增长，而这正是所谓‘超级老人’中我们所知最强的解剖学相关特征。

And for you, sounds like the heavy compound movements, for me, yeah, I don't like the cold plunge, which is why I do it, I don't think it's magic, I just think it's a surefire stimulus that I hate to get mentally stronger, And I think having something that you really despise that you know is good for you, seems to keep this anterior mid singulate cortex volume either increasing or the same, and that's actually the thing in these so called super agers that is the strongest anatomical correlate that we have.

所以一方面，我希望它能变得更容易。

So on the one hand, I hope it gets easier.

但另一方面，为了你的利益，我希望它别变得太容易，因为那样会带来更大的益处。

On the other hand, for your sake, I hope it doesn't get easier, because it's gonna be so much more beneficial.

我有一位教练，能察觉到训练变得轻松了，她一定会增加重量。

I have a coach who can tell when it's getting easier, and she will definitely up the weight.

我的意思是，重量一直在增加。

I mean, it keeps going up.

所以，从某种意义上说，它并没有变得更容易，但其实也没有变难。

And so it doesn't it gets easier in a sense, but it doesn't.

所以我认为这正是关键所在：你在增强力量，不断加重负荷，而因为重量增加了，训练又变得艰难了。

So I think that's the whole point, is you're building strength and you keep making it heavier, and it becomes harder again because now it's heavier.

太棒了。

Awesome.

而且我从来没有受伤，这也是，呃，借个吉言。

And I haven't gotten injured, that's also, know, knock on wood.

是的，借个吉言。

Yeah, no, knock on wood.

谢谢你完整地描绘了这个画面。

Thank you for rounding out that picture.

这对男性和女性都非常有启发性，你知道的。

It's super inspiring for men and women, you know, so.

在社交媒体上发帖并不容易，因为显而易见，我还是个新手。

It's not easy to post on social media, because obviously, I'm a newbie.

所以我有很多方面，你知道的，可以改进的地方。

So I have all sorts of, you know, things that I can ways I can improve.

但我还是在发帖，

But I'm posting it,

你知道的？

you know?

而且你正在训练三连、双连和单次，我觉得这是我正努力多做的一件事。我认为，通过高次数做到力竭也能获得肌肉肥大，这我完全同意，我读过相关研究，也完全认同这些数据，但并不是所有事情都关乎肌肉肥大。

Well, and the fact that you're working down into triples, doubles, and singles, I think is something that I'm trying to do more of, and I think this notion that you can get hypertrophy with higher reps if you take it to failure, sure, I totally agree, read the studies, totally agree with the data, but not everything is about hypertrophy.

我觉得人们常常忘了这一点。

I think that's what people forget.

这并不仅仅是关于长肌肉。

It's not all about growing muscle.

NVO2最大值确实很棒，但这并不仅仅是关于最高水平的指标。

NVO2 max, which is great, but it's just, it's not all about the top contour.

我喜欢你处理一切的方式，因为你深入了健康层次的多个层面。

And what I love about the way you approach everything is you go through multiple layers of the health stratus as it were.

这可能是个很好的机会来谈谈蛋白质，因为我对蛋白质有个具体的问题。

This is probably a good opportunity to talk about protein, because I have a very specific question about protein.

我们经常听到的说法是，每磅体重或瘦体重需要摄入一克优质蛋白质，这似乎是普遍被灌输的观点。

We all hear one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight or lean body weight, that's sort of what we're kind of, what's thrown at us.

通过进行重负荷训练，你有没有发现你对蛋白质食物的食欲增加了？我是说，特别对蛋白质类食物的食欲？

By doing the heavier weight training, do you notice that your protein appetite has increased, Like appetite specifically for protein foods?

我不确定我有这种感觉。

I don't know that I have.

有趣的是，我最近稍微多做了一些间歇性禁食，人们一想到间歇性禁食，就以为它只是一种单一的干预方式。

You know, I interestingly have been doing a little bit more intermittent fasting, which, people think about intermittent fasting, they think about it as just one thing, one intervention.

但我认为它其实包含两个方面。

I think it's two.

这其中有一个行为层面，它是一种减少摄入热量的工具。

There's a behavioral aspect to it where it's a tool to sort of lower the amount of calories you're taking in.

另一个则是这种代谢转换。

The other one would be this metabolic switch.

所以实际上，从去年九月，也就是2025年9月左右，我就开始更多地进行间歇性禁食。

So I've actually, since, I don't know, September maybe, last September 2025, been doing more intermittent fasting.

我所说的主要是吃得更少。

And what I mean by that is just really just eating less.

这样做的原因是，我注意到自己虽然吃得健康、运动很多，但腹部的脂肪，尤其是内脏脂肪，却在不断增加。

And the reason for that is because I noticed that everything that I was doing, which was, I eat healthy, I exercise a lot, and yet I was sort of gaining more fat in the belly section, the visceral fat.

真正帮助我遏制这一趋势、踩下刹车的，只有制造更大的热量缺口。

And the only thing that really helped me stop that, put the brakes on, was getting more in a caloric deficit.

所以，也许我这样做的动机，正在影响我是否会对蛋白质产生更强的食欲。

So maybe my drive to do that kind of is skewing whether or not my appetite for protein would go up.

但我个人的摄入量是每公斤体重1.2到1.6克蛋白质。

But I personally am on the scale of 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kilogram body weight.

每公斤，好的。

Per kilogram, okay.

每公斤，这可能比

Per kilogram, which is probably a little bit less than

每磅少一点。

the pound.

这是一种随意的说法，即每磅或每瘦体重摄入一克优质蛋白，定义为富含必需氨基酸等成分的食物。

It's a kind of a throwaway statement, a gram of quality protein as defined as something with lots of the essential amino acids and so forth, per pound or per lean pound of body mass.

是的，所以——这是我和其他许多人追求的目标，但我很好奇你对每餐摄入特定蛋白质量有多严格。

Yeah, so- Which is something I think I and many other people shoot for, but I'm curious how religious you are about the, you know, getting a certain protein amount or per meal.

基本上，对我而言，这并不奏效，因为我确实努力追求较高水平的蛋白质摄入，对我来说，也就是每公斤体重1.6克，甚至更高一点。

Basically, it wasn't working for me in terms of like, I was really trying to get aim for like the higher end of the, for me, you know, one point six grams per kilogram body weight or even a little bit above that.

而我发现，实际情况是我体重反而增加了，因为我同时摄入了更多的热量。

And what I found, what was happening is that I was actually gaining more weight because I think I was consuming more calories at the same time.

如果你是从全食物中获取蛋白质，对吧？

If you're getting it from whole foods, right?

这会自然发生。

Like that's just kind of naturally gonna happen.

所以我不得不下调了。

And so I had to slide down.

但正如我所说，我仍然保持在每公斤体重约1.3到1.4克蛋白质的范围内。

But I'm still, like I said, I'm still getting within that range of like probably on average maybe 1.3, 1.4 grams per kilogram body weight.

这对我来说效果非常好。

And it's really worked well for me.

但每个人都不一样，目标也不同。

But like people are different and you have different goals.

对吧？

Right?

你知道的。

You know?

我在增肌，我觉得我的训练是最重要的。

Like I'm gaining muscle mass and I feel like all my training is like the most important thing.

我认为总的来说，人们应该更专注于训练，而不是过度关注蛋白质摄入。

And I think that we need generally speaking, I think people should become more obsessed with training and less obsessed with protein.

蛋白质只是对训练的一种补充。

Like the protein will complement the training.

正如你提到的，如果你在训练，你对蛋白质的食欲可能会增加，从而开始吃更多的蛋白质，减少精制碳水化合物。

And as you mentioned, if you're training, perhaps your appetite for protein will increase, and so you'll start to eat more protein and less refined carbohydrates.

我本来就不怎么吃精制的超加工食品。

I already wasn't eating a lot of refined ultra processed foods in the first place.

这可能不是你期待的答案，但对我而言，单纯增加蛋白质摄入并没有让我的身体受益，不过话说回来，我已经47岁了。

Probably not the answer you were expecting, but it's really, for me, focusing on getting more protein was not working for my body in terms of, but then again, I'm 47 years old.

你知道的，更年期前期阶段，和37岁的人情况截然不同。

You know, that perimenopause phase, very different than someone who's 37, maybe.

我不知道这个问题的答案。

I don't know the answer to that.

但我确实注意到，现在越来越多的人说，他们很难达到每磅体重摄入一克蛋白质的目标。

I do know that I hear from more and more people these days that they are having a hard time getting that one gram of protein per pound of body weight.

他们觉得这太多了，这是他们的感受。

It feels like a lot to them is what they're saying.

他们觉得自己是在强迫自己去做。

They feel like they're kind of forcing themselves to do You

不应该有这样的感觉。

shouldn't feel that way.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我其实对你的回答非常满意，不是因为我有什么议程，而是因为我和很多其他人似乎都觉得，除非有大量的抗阻训练或极高的能量消耗，比如背着背包徒步，一天走九个小时，对吧？

So I'm actually really pleased with your answer, not because I have an agenda here, but because I, and many other people seem to feel like, unless there's a lot of resistance training or tremendous demands, like hiking, you know, while backpacking, where if you burn tons of calories, you're carrying, you're basically rocking like nine hours a day, right?

对。

Right.

否则他们很难摄入那么多蛋白质。

That they have a hard time getting that much protein down.

而且我认为，如果人们吃很多淀粉类食物，比如我吃米饭、燕麦和一些面包之类的东西，情况也是如此。

And I think that's also the case if people are eating starches, like I eat rice and oatmeal and some breads and things like that.

面包吃得不多，但听起来你吃一些淀粉类食物。

Not a lot of bread, but it sounds like you eat starches.

我也吃燕麦片。

I do eat oatmeal too.

它能让你有饱腹感。

It does satiate you.

现在，我更多地关注于在不损害健康的前提下，稍微控制一下热量摄入。

These days, because I really kind of more focused a little bit on I did wanna to calorically restrict somewhat without you know, being unhealthy.

显然，你可以把每一个压力因素推向一个糟糕、不健康的方向。

Obviously, you can take every stressor to a bad, unhealthy place.

对吧？

Right?

你不想让自己挨饿。

You don't wanna starve yourself.

你也不想吃得不够。

You don't wanna, like, not eat enough food.

但我的餐食主要是健康的蛋白质。

But my meals are mostly, like, healthy protein.

所以我吃自己做的火鸡汉堡。

So I have homemade turkey burgers.

我吃很多这种火鸡汉堡。

I eat a lot of I eat a lot of those.

然后我还吃鸡肉。

And then I eat chicken.

你知道，我吃散养的鸡肉。

You know, I eat pasture raised chicken.

我确实还是会吃野生阿拉斯加三文鱼。

I do I do still eat wild Alaskan salmon.

然后我也会搭配一些菲力牛排。

And then I'll also mix in some, like, filet mignon.

我喜欢草饲牛排。

Like, I like grass fed steak as well.

真好吃。

Yum.

这些就是我的蛋白质来源。

Those are my protein sources.

而且我总是搭配绿叶蔬菜。

And always, I pair it with greens.

或者某种蔬菜。

So or, like, some sort of vegetable.

大多数时候是绿叶菜，因为它们的微量营养素含量最高。

Most of times, it's greens because they're the most micronutrient dense.

所以现在我经常吃预先做好的蒜香羽衣甘蓝。

And so these days, I'm eating a lot of sauteed collard greens that are like pre prepared, has garlic and onion.

我会把它和我的餐食一起吃，或者吃一些炒羽衣甘蓝。

And I'll have that with my meal, or I'll have some sauteed kale.

有时候我会搭配一份沙拉，但分量比较小。

Sometimes I'll have a salad with it, but the portions are smaller.

就像我说的，我还会做一些间歇性禁食。

And like I said, I also do a little bit of intermittent fasting.

我们也可以聊聊这个。

We can talk about that as well.

但这就是我目前日常饮食的大致情况。

But that's kind of these days what I'm doing for my meals.

我吃得没以前多了。

I haven't eaten as much.

有时候我会吃高蛋白燕麦。

Sometimes I'll eat the high protein oats.

有那种高蛋白燕麦，你见过吗？

They have those high protein oats that have you seen those?

它们挺不错的。

They're pretty good.

我会吃燕麦，但我喜欢高蛋白食物、蔬菜和水果。

I eat oatmeal, but I like protein foods, I like vegetables, I like fruit.

我感觉自己很幸运，主要喜欢这些食物。

I feel very lucky to like those foods mainly.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，碳水化合物必须非常纯净。

And then the starch for me has to be very clean.

我喜欢燕麦、米饭，也会吃自制的意大利面；如果外出吃饭，有时会吃自制意大利面、酸面包之类的，但我发现市面上大多数淀粉类食物都含有大量其他添加剂，吃了之后总感觉不舒服，容易犯困。看来我们的饮食还挺相似的，只是我可能比你吃更多的淀粉类食物。

I like oatmeal rice, homemade pastas I'll eat, like if I go out, I'll have, sometimes I'll have some homemade pasta or a sourdough bread or something, but I find that most starches that are out there in the world have a bunch of other junk in them, but I just feel lousy, get kind of sleepy afterwards, So it sounds like we eat pretty similarly, although I probably eat more starches than you do.

正如你所说，那些更加工的碳水化合物，吃完后通常不会让你感觉良好。

It's the more processed types of carbohydrates that, as you mentioned, it's like, typically you don't feel good after you eat them.

这部分是因为餐后炎症反应，因为一些食物具有更强的促炎性。

And part of that's the post prandial inflammatory response, because some of those foods are a little more inflammatory.

很多添加剂会影响肠道，导致肠壁通透性增加，使脂多糖渗入血液，激活免疫系统，对吧？

Mean, a lot of additives and stuff that are affecting the gut, gut permeabilization, you're leaking lipopolysaccharide into the bloodstream, right, that's activating the immune system.

我们以前

We used to

注射？我不再做任何动物实验了，实际上我很感激自己不再做这些了。

inject, I don't do any animal experiments anymore, and I'm actually grateful to not do them.

所以，我不喜欢做动物实验，但那时我们只能这么做，直到我决定转而研究人类。

So, I didn't like working on animals, but it was what we did until I decided to work on humans.

但我们过去常注射LPS来刺激炎症反应，以促进巨噬细胞等介导的再生反应。

But we used to inject LPS to stimulate an inflammatory response, to kind of prime a regeneration response that you could get through macrophages and things like that.

因此，LPS是一种非常有效的引发局部甚至全身性炎症的方法。

And so LPS is a very potent way to generate local or even systemic inflammation.

听说某些淀粉会刺激LPS产生，这挺有意思的——

Think hearing that some starches will stimulate LPS, that's interesting-

让我澄清一下——

Well, let me clarify-

这和我的经验是一致的。

It squares with my experience.

让我澄清一下。

Let me clarify.

我没有在质疑。

I'm not challenging.

不，不，不，我没有质疑，这和我的经验一致。

No, no, no, I'm not challenging, it squares with my experiences.

我就是这样的人，从不胃痛，也从不头痛。

I'm one of these, I never get stomachaches, I never get headaches.

如果我的胃或头出了问题，那一定是出了大状况。

If I do something's badly wrong with my stomach or my head.

但如果我吃了某些淀粉类食物，我会觉得不舒服，心想是不是这个原因。

But if I eat certain starches, I'll be like, Ugh, I feel lousy, and I'm wondering if it's this.

我们的肠道里大约有一克LPS。

So we have about a gram of LPS in our gut.

平均来说是这样，因为脂多糖是革兰氏阴性菌细胞膜的外层成分，对吧？

That's on average, because lipopolysaccharide is the outer component of a cell membrane of gram negative bacteria, right?

酵母。

Yeast.

我们肠道里有大量的细菌，尤其是革兰氏阴性菌，

We have a lot of bacteria in our gut, gram negative bacteria,

对吧？

right?

有数万亿的细菌。当我们进食时，通常我们的肠道上皮细胞之间有紧密连接将它们固定在一起。

Trillions of bacteria So in our when we eat food, typically, like our gut epithelial cells, we have a tight junction that's holding them together.

当我们进食时，这些连接会暂时打开，然后再次闭合。

When we eat food, they transiently open and then close.

这其实是一种正常的反应，对吧？

Like, it's kind of a normal response, right?

我认为与此相反的情况是乳糜泻，当他们摄入麸质之类的东西时，肠道会打开并持续开放，导致大量LPS渗入体内，引发严重炎症。

I would say the opposite end of the spectrum of that would be like celiac where they eat gluten or something, it opens up and stays open, and so you get like a ton of LPS leakage into the system, which causes massive inflammation.

但一般来说，每餐都会发生这种情况。

It just happens with meals in general.

进食后，你确实会引发一定程度的LPS反应。

You do get somewhat of a LPS response from a meal.

现在，餐食的类型确实很重要。

Now, the type of meal does matter.

当我提到精制碳水化合物时，并不是指蔬菜这样的健康碳水化合物。

So when I say refined carbohydrates, it's not necessarily like healthy carbohydrates like vegetables.

而是指你吃的是精制糖，通常还搭配饱和脂肪。

It's like you're eating something that is refined sugar, typically with saturated fat.

这类食物会引发强烈的LPS反应。

So those types of foods really cause LPS response.

你知道，这就是炎症。

You know, it's inflammation.

这很糟糕。

It's bad.

对肠道负担很大。

It's hard on the gut.

但餐后炎症反应本质上就是LPS进入体内，激活免疫系统，从而消耗能量。

But the postprandial inflammatory response essentially is that LPS getting into the system, activating the immune system, which draws the energy.

我的意思是，激活免疫系统是非常耗费能量的，对吧？

I mean, it's like, it's very energy consuming to activate your immune system, right?

这就是为什么你生病时也会特别困，对吧？

That's why when you're sick, you're so sleepy too, right?

但同时也有某些细胞因子具有促眠作用，能促进睡眠，不过激活免疫系统确实需要大量能量。

But there's also cytokines that are somnogenic and promoting sleep, but activating your immune system requires a ton of energy.

所以当你持续激活免疫系统时，这就成了一个能量黑洞，对吧？

And so when you're constantly activating the immune system, that's an energy sink, right?

因此你会感到疲倦，这也是为什么饭后常常会觉得昏昏沉沉。

And so you do feel tired, and that's why a lot of times after a meal, you're feeling kind of lethargic.

你之前提到的那两类蛋白质食物，会不会导致肠道紧密连接的打开程度较低？

Two protein foods of the sort that you listed off before, do they cause less opening of the tight junctions of the gut?

我认为肠道紧密连接打开的关键在于，你知道，吃一顿大餐就会导致这种情况。

I think that the big deal with the opening of the tight junctions in the gut is, you know I mean, eating eating a big meal will do it.

吃一顿高度加工的食物，也会导致这种情况。

Eating a very, like, ultra processed food meal will do it.

有趣的是，仅仅摄入大量饱和脂肪而没有纤维基质，比如黄油。

Interestingly enough, just eating a bunch of saturated fat without a fiber matrix, so, like like, butter.

你只是在吃黄油。

You're just, eating butter.

千万别这么做。

Don't ever do that.

但如果你只是吃黄油，这一点已经被研究证实了。

But like if you just eat butter, that's been shown.

我侄女小时候，现在她已经长大了，但小时候我教她吃一点凯尔盖尔黄油，她特别喜欢。

My niece, when she was little, now she's all grown up, but when she was little, I taught her how to eat like a little bit of Kerrygold butter and she loved it.

所以我们当时会做这种事。

So then we would do this thing where we'd do that.

我们不会再这么做了。

We won't do that anymore.

我的意思是，少量吃是可以的，但确实有研究显示，饱和脂肪对肠道负担很大。

I mean, a little bit's fine, but like, I'm I mean, there's there's studies showing that it does like, saturated fat is hard on the gut.

是的。

Yeah.

正如我所说，这是一个连续的范围。

Like I said, it's a sliding scale.

一般来说，饮食确实如此，但你可能会这么想。

Like, meals in general do it, but it's like you would think.

你吃的健康食品，比如全食物，会减少这种LPS反应。

The healthier foods that you're eating, like whole foods, you're getting less of that LPS response.

当然，还有麸质，这会让整个情况变得更复杂，尤其是对乳糜泻患者来说，对吧？

And then, of course, there's gluten, and that complicates the whole story, especially for people that are celiac, right?

因为那是

Because that's

实际上患有乳糜泻的人只占少数，对吧？

Which is a small percentage of people are actually celiac, right?

但很多人似乎都相信，我也相信他们，当他们吃麸质时，感觉比不吃的时候更糟。

But a lot of people seem to believe, and I believe them, that when they eat gluten, they feel worse than when they don't eat gluten.

我确信有一些对麸质敏感的人确实会感觉更糟。

I'm sure there's some people that are sensitive to gluten that do feel worse.

而且我肯定其中一部分是安慰剂反效应，对吧？

And then I'm sure some of that's the nocebo effect, right?

这一点在麸质问题上已经被证实了。

That's been shown with gluten in particular.

你看过那个研究吗？

Have you seen that study?

所以有一些人认为自己对麸质敏感。

So there were people that think they're gluten sensitive.

于是他们被纳入了一项研究。

And so they were enrolled in a study.

这些参与者被分成了两组。

And these individuals were separated into two groups.

一组被给予含麸质的面包，另一组则被给予不含麸质的面包。

One group was given the gluten bread with gluten and the other group was given the bread without gluten.

而那些吃了无麸质面包的人却出现了严重的腹部不适，他们感到腹胀。

And the people that were given the bread without gluten had a terrible abdominal Like, they were bloated.

他们感觉非常糟糕。

They felt terrible.

我的意思是，实际上面包里根本没有麸质，但他们以为有。

I mean, was all And there was no gluten in the actual bread, but they thought there was.

因此人们认为这是一种反安慰剂效应，也就是安慰剂效应的反面：你有一种心理倾向，认为负面的事情会发生，于是真的让它发生了。

So it was thought that there's a nocebo effect where it's like the opposite of a placebo effect where you've got that phenotype where you think things negative are gonna happen, and you can make them happen.

你可以改变你的免疫系统。

You can change your immune system.

你可以改变你的大脑信号。

You can change your brain signaling.

在这方面，可能两者都有作用。

You know, so probably a combination of both with that regard.

除了嗜睡之外，我刚才提到的背景中，正是因为你谈到饭后感到疲倦，这才引起了我的兴趣。

In addition to the lethargy, so I was talking about in the context, that's why it sparked my interest is like you were talking about feeling tired after a meal.

我认为这确实是让人感到困倦的原因之一。

And I do think that is part of that reason for feeling sleepy.

但关于LPS，你提到注射到小鼠体内，我也做过将LPS注射到小鼠体内的实验。

But what's interesting about LPS, you talked about injecting into mice, and I've also done experiments injecting LPS into mice.

已有研究对人注射了与肠道释放到血液中相似剂量的LPS，或使用生理盐水作为安慰剂对照。

There have been studies where people have been injected with an amount of LPS that is similar to what you would find your gut releasing into your bloodstream or a placebo control, which in this case was saline.

接受LPS注射的个体，其炎症标志物如TNF-alpha显著升高，我指的是比基线水平高出高达50%，对吧？

And individuals that were injected with the LPS, high amounts of inflammatory markers like TNF alpha, I mean, we're talking like up to a 50% increase over baseline, right?

因此，出现了高水平的炎症，这很合理。

So high amounts of inflammation, which makes sense.

LPS激活了免疫系统。

LPS is activating the immune system.

这就像有外来入侵者一样，对吧？

It's like there's a foreign invader, right?

其实并不是外来入侵者，只是你吃的食物而已。

It's not a foreign invader, it's just the food you ate

那个

that

导致了肠道通透性的暂时性增加。

caused transient gut permeability.

这些个体还出现了抑郁症状和社会退缩感。

And those individuals also feel depressive symptoms and feelings of social withdrawal.

所以炎症正在影响大脑，对吧？

So the inflammation is affecting the brain, right?

这些炎症因子能够进入大脑，穿过血脑屏障，影响我们的感受。

These inflammatory factors are getting in the brain crossing the blood brain barrier and affecting the way we feel.

我们现在知道，炎症在重度抑郁症和抑郁中扮演着重要角色，并非所有病例都是如此，但确实有一部分人群，炎症似乎起着关键作用。

And we know now that inflammation plays a big role in major depressive disorder and depression, not in all cases, but there's a subset, right, where it seems to play a big role.

事实上，有趣的是，一些研究表明，对SSRI类药物无反应的人体内C反应蛋白水平非常高。

In fact, interestingly, there's been some studies showing that people that don't respond to SSRIs have very high amounts of C reactive protein.

因此，这是一种炎症的经典生物标志物。

So this was the biomarker, a classical biomarker for inflammation.

我认为它并不那么敏感，但无论如何，它确实是一个炎症的生物标志物。

I would argue it's not that sensitive, but nonetheless, it is a biomarker for inflammation.

因此，对SSRIs无反应的人体内炎症水平较高，这引发了一个问题：是否存在一种由炎症驱动的抑郁亚型呢？

And so people that don't respond to SSRIs have high amounts of inflammation, which kind of raises this question of, is there like this subset of depression that's really inflammatory driven, right?

有意思。

Interesting.

所以，LPS不仅影响我们的能量水平，还影响我们的情绪。

So the LPS is affecting not only our energy levels, but also our mood.

此外，还有证据表明，我们知道LPS通过脂质-脂质相互作用与LDL颗粒结合。

And then there's also evidence that, so we know that LPS binds to LDL particles through lipid lipid interactions.

事实上，这是一种适应性反应的一部分。

And in fact, it's kind of part of the adaptive response.

这就是为什么你绝不要在生病后或经历压力事件后立即去测胆固醇，因为那时VLDL和LDL的生成都会增加。

It's why you don't wanna ever go get your cholesterol measured, like, right after you're sick or had a very stressful event, something that causes inflammation because you will increase VLDL production increases and LDL production increases.

这是一种适应性反应，通过结合LPS来防止其造成更多损害。

And it's sort of an adaptive response to bind that LPS to prevent it from causing more damage.

因此，它实际上结合在LDL颗粒的ApoB蛋白上。

And so, it actually binds to LDL particles on the ApoB protein.

ApoB是一种存在于这些脂蛋白上的蛋白质，它非常重要，因为肝脏上的LDL受体正是依靠它来回收LDL颗粒。

So, ApoB is a protein that is on these lipoproteins, and it's a very important protein because that is what's used by the LDL receptors present on our liver to recycle LDL particles.

所以，这些LPS颗粒现在结合在我们的脂蛋白上，而脂蛋白仍然在正常发挥功能，对吧？

And so what happens is these LPS particles are now bound to our lipoproteins, and our lipoproteins are still doing their function, right?

它们在体内循环，向需要能量的细胞输送甘油三酯和脂肪酸，以及一定程度的胆固醇，对吧？

They're going around and they're giving triglycerides and fatty acids, and to some degree, cholesterol to our cells that need it, right?

我们不断生成新细胞并进行修复，细胞需要这些物质。

We're constantly making new cells and repairing, and our cells need that.

当它们捐赠甘油三酯和脂肪酸时，自身的体积会变小。

As they donate triglycerides and fatty acids, they get smaller in size.

脂蛋白，你可能听说过小而密的LDL，对吧？

The lipoproteins, you probably heard of small dense LDL, right?

那种是非常危险的LDL颗粒类型。

Like, that's a very dangerous type of LDL particle.

而这个是那种一路在捐赠、释放甘油三酯和其他物质的。

And that's one that's kind of been donating along, getting rid of triglycerides and whatever.

如果你把这想象成一列载货的火车，它正在不断卸下货物。

If think about a train with cargo, it's donating, you know, dropping off the cargo.

那么当它需要被回收回肝脏时，你猜怎么着？

And so when it's time to get recycled back into the liver, what do you know?

ApoB蛋白被LPS遮盖住了，因此无法被回收。

The ApoB protein's obscured by that LPS, and it's not recycled.

于是它就卡在了动脉壁上。

And so it gets lodged into the arterial wall.

由于LPS结合在这个小而密的LDL颗粒上，巨噬细胞——正如你提到的，它是对抗细菌入侵的第一道防线——会过来把它吞噬掉，解决这个问题。

And because there's an LPS bound to this small dense LDL particle, macrophages, which are, as you mentioned, it's like the first line of defense against something like a bacterial invader, right, comes and chews it up, right, gets rid of the problem.

所以巨噬细胞会过来，因为它们检测到LPS信号，误以为是外来入侵者，试图吞噬它，但它并不是细菌，结果巨噬细胞就被卡在这个脂蛋白-LPS复合物上，形成了泡沫细胞。

So macrophages come in because they're seeing this signal of LPS and think it's a foreign invader when it's actually just a small dense LDL particle bound to LPS that came from the gut, tries to engulf it, but it can't because it's not bacteria, and you get the macrophage stuck to that lipoprotein LPS complex, and you get the formation of a foam cell.

你可能听说过泡沫细胞。

You've probably heard of a foam cell.

这是动脉粥样硬化的开始。

It's the beginning of atherosclerosis.

因此，肠道健康和我们吃的食物与心血管健康是相关的，对吧？

And so this is where gut health and the food we eat is sort of It's linked to cardiovascular health, right?

肠道通透性导致LPS进入我们的血液循环并不是一件好事，因为这相当于缓慢地持续注入炎症和炎症信号，正在我们的动脉和大脑中造成破坏。

Gut permeability, getting that LPS into our circulation is actually not a very good thing because you're basically slow dripping in that inflammation, that inflammatory signal, and it's wreaking havoc in our arteries, on our brain.

正如你们许多人知道的，我已经服用AG1将近十五年了。

As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly fifteen years now.

我早在2012年就发现了它，那时我还没有开始做播客，从那以后我每天都服用。

I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.

我开始服用AG1的原因，也是我至今仍在服用的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1是市场上质量最高、成分最全面的基础营养补充剂。

The reason I started taking it and the reason I still take it is because AG1 is to my knowledge, highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原融合在单一勺子中，易于饮用且口感很好。

It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink and it tastes great.

它的设计旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量。

It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy.

它通过帮助补充你日常营养中可能存在的不足来实现这一点。

And it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition.

当然，每个人都应该努力食用营养丰富的全食物。

Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods.

我每天确实都这么做，但人们经常问我，如果你只能选择一种补充剂，你会选哪一种？

I certainly do that every day, but I'm often asked if you could take just one supplement, what would that supplement be?

我的答案始终是AG1，因为它对支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现至关重要。

And my answer is always AG1, because it has just been oh, so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance.

这是我个人使用AG1的经验，我也不断听到其他每天使用AG1的人有同样的反馈。

I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily.

如果你想尝试AG1，可以前往drinkag1.com/huberman获取特别优惠。

If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

限时优惠：订阅AG1，即可免费获得六份旅行装AG1和一瓶维生素D3K2。

For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription.

再次提醒，前往drinkag1.com/huberman，即可在订阅时获得六份免费旅行装和一瓶维生素D3K2。

Again, that's drinkag1 with the numeral1.com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription.

谢谢你如此清晰地解释，因为我认为没有人曾经讲清楚过肠道健康是如何影响心血管健康的——是推动、拉低还是提升心血管健康。作为一个神经科学工作者，我总是把迷走神经看作是肠道与大脑之间的主要通道，我回想起，将LPS注入肠道实际上是实验性诱发发烧的方法，因为如果你切断迷走神经，就不会发烧，这表明肠道与大脑及其他器官之间的沟通方式，似乎高度依赖于某种LPS的阈值水平。

Thank you for explaining that so clearly, because I don't think anyone has ever explained how exactly gut health is signaling cardiovascular health, or pushing or pulling down on, or raising cardiovascular health, as a neuro guy, I think about the vagus nerve as the primary conduit between gut and brain, and I was recalling that LPS injected into the gut is how you actually experimentally induce a fever, because the, and if you cut the vagus, no fever, so there's this, there seems to be something about the way that the gut communicates with the brain and other organs that is critically dependent on the, some threshold level of LPS.

也谢谢你提醒我们，肠道中确实存在LPS，因为我们肠道里有一些酵母菌。

Thank you also for reminding us that LPS is present in the gut, because we have yeast in our gut, some amount of yeast.

你提到了紧密连接，我对紧密连接的理解是——请纠正我，因为我可能会部分或全部说错——它们本质上就像肠道中的一道细胞栅栏，而这些连接的暂时性或部分性开放是正常过程，但听起来，餐后有些细菌一旦你说它们‘泄漏’到我们的系统中，就是真的进入了血液循环。

You mentioned tight junctions, and the way I think about tight junctions, please correct me, because I'm gonna some or all of this wrong, is that essentially they form like a cellular fence in the gut, and that transient opening or partial opening of these is a normal process, but it sounds like after a meal, some bacteria, when you say leaks out into our system, it's literally going into the bloodstream.

所以现在我们体内有了循环的细菌。

So now we have bacteria circulating.

如果其中一些细菌足够小，能穿过血脑屏障，那就是细菌引发大脑炎症的另一种方式。

And if some of that is small enough to get across the blood brain barrier, that's another way that bacteria can start to cause inflammation at brain level.

LPS是细菌死亡后残留的外层成分。

It's LPS, which is like the outer component of bacteria that have died.

至于活细菌进入体内，我对这方面了解可能不如LPS那么深入，但我清楚的是，LPS确实会进入体内。

Actual live bacteria getting in, I don't know as much about that perhaps as well, but I know that the LPS is getting in.

我知道LPS会激活免疫系统，以及大脑中的常驻胶质细胞等，这会破坏血脑屏障。

And I do know that the LPS activating the immune system and stuff and the resident glial cells and stuff in the brain does break down the blood brain barrier.

这就像早期阶段，我们知道神经炎症是血脑屏障破坏的早期表现，而这是神经退行性疾病的早期阶段。

It's like the early Like we know neuroinflammation is really some of the early parts of breaking down of the blood brain barrier, which is the early stages of neurodegenerative disease.

这正是肠道健康与大脑以及神经退行性疾病之间的联系。

It is how the gut health is linked to the brain and to neurodegenerative disease as well.

所以我认为，正是炎症在整体衰老过程中起到了强大的推动作用。

So it's the inflammation, I think, that's really It's really powerful in terms of It's a driver of the aging process in general.

这种炎症，你听说过‘炎症性衰老’这个词吧。

Like this inflammation, inflamaging, you've heard of inflamaging.

现在对我来说已经很清楚了，如果你在思考导致这些衰老标志的分子事件，而这些标志又最终引发表型、虚弱和疾病，比如2型糖尿病、癌症、阿尔茨海默病，那就得往更上游去看。

I think now it's pretty clear to me that is if you're thinking about the molecular events that are leading to these hallmarks of aging, which lead to the phenotypes and frailty and the diseases, right, like type two diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer's disease, like go upstream of that.

而炎症正是这一切的核心。

And the inflammation is at the core of it.

所以我们经常听到‘炎症’这个词，但究竟它指的是什么？它包含了很多不同的含义。

And so we hear this word inflammation a lot, it's like, what does it And it means a lot of things.

这并不仅仅关乎肠道。

It's not just the gut.

肠道只是其中的一部分，但还有其他因素，对吧？

The gut is a component of it, but there's other things as well, right?

我的意思是，压力、任何情绪压力，比如睡眠不足，都会导致炎症。

I mean, you can have stress, any emotional stress, like that can lead to inflammation, not getting enough sleep, right?

有很多因素都会引发炎症。

There's a lot of things that can lead to inflammation.

所以这是一个很重要的观点，就是要尽量保持炎症水平低，对吧？

And so it is kind of an important point to think about, is really like trying to have your inflammation low, right?

那你怎么做到这一点呢？

And how do you do that?

我将从三个不同的角度切入，这些都与你刚才说的有关。

I'm gonna take three different jumping off points here, all related to what you said.

别以为我是在随意发散话题。

So don't think I'm a random subject generator here.

我们会回到禁食的话题上的，我保证。

We will get back to fasting, I promise.

最近，你提到过谷氨酰胺作为一种可能的工具，或许能在压力时期帮助缓冲免疫系统。

Lately, you've posted a bit about glutamine as a potential tool to perhaps buffer the immune system under times of stress.

我也一直对L-谷氨酰胺作为增强肠道紧密连接的方法感兴趣。

I've also been interested in L glutamine as a way to reinforce tight junctions in the gut.

我不确定这方面的研究是否充分可靠。

I don't know if that literature is robust or not.

我得说，几年前当我工作繁忙、睡眠不足时，我开始服用L-谷氨酰胺，因为有人告诉我它能帮助我少生病，而事实上，我生病的频率确实比那个从未实际进行的想象对照实验要低。

I have to say I started taking L glutamine years ago in times when I was working a lot and not sleeping enough, because someone told me it would help me not get sick, and indeed I didn't get sick as much as the imaginary control experiment that I never got to do.

也就是说，我不知道它是否真的有效，但当我感到疲惫时，我仍然会继续服用L-谷氨酰胺，同时也会服用其他几种东西。你能告诉我们，L-谷氨酰胺对肠道健康有多重要？它是否以及如何有助于增强免疫系统？

Meaning, I don't know if it helped or not, but I continue to take L glutamine when I'm feeling run down, I take a couple of other things too, but could you tell us about how, or if or how L glutamine is important for gut health, and if and how L glutamine might be helpful for reinforcing the immune system?

从科学文献的角度来看，支持这些说法的证据并不多，但确实有一些。

There's not a ton of evidence in terms of like what's in the scientific literature supporting these statements, but there is some.

这些证据已经足够让人觉得：不妨试着自己实验一下。

And it's enough to kind of go, Well, I'm gonna try to maybe experiment with it.

我最初对谷氨酰胺产生兴趣，是因为我在攻读研究生期间做癌症代谢研究时，经常进行营养剥夺实验，会从癌细胞中去除葡萄糖，观察会发生什么。

So, I first became interested in glutamine because when I was doing my graduate research, was doing a lot of cancer metabolism studies, I would do nutrient withdrawal, and I would remove glucose from cancer cells and see what would happen.

于是你就想，好吧，把葡萄糖从培养皿中的淋巴瘤癌细胞中移除，很多细胞会死亡，但并不是全部都会死。

And it's like, okay, well, remove glucose from lymphoma cancer cells in the petri dish, and a lot of them would die, but they wouldn't all die.

我当时就想，为什么它们没有全部死亡呢？

And I was like, why aren't they all dying?

结果发现，哦，它们那里有谷氨酰胺。

Turns out, oh, they had glutamine there.

所以，谷氨酰胺足以维持它们的生存。

So, glutamine was enough to sustain them.

因此，谷氨酰胺可以转化为许多物质。

So, glutamine can be converted into many things.

谷氨酰胺是一种氨基酸，对吧？

So, glutamine can be an amino acid, right?

它是一种氨基酸。

It's amino acid.

谷氨酰胺可以转化为三羧酸循环。

Glutamine can be converted into the Krebs cycle.

因此，它可以被转化为线粒体用于产生能量的中间产物。

So, it can be converted into intermediates that are used to make energy by the mitochondria.

谷氨酰胺可以转化为谷氨酸，对吧？

And glutamine can be converted into glutamate, right?

神经递质，对吧？

Neurotransmitter, right?

所以，谷氨酰胺有多种代谢途径和不同的去向。

So, there's a lot of pathways and different fates for glutamine.

因此，我对这个产生了兴趣，因为谷氨酰胺对这些癌细胞的存活至关重要。

So I became interested in that because it was like, Oh, glutamine's important for the survival of these cancer cells.

然后我做了大量免疫细胞激活的研究。

Then I was doing a lot of activating immune cell studies.

我的研究生导师是免疫学家出身，所以我当时也在做这方面的研究。

My graduate advisor is an immunologist by training, and so I was also doing that.

结果发现，谷氨酰胺对免疫细胞的激活至关重要。

Turns out glutamine was essential for the activation of immune cells.

所以这一直是我脑海中的一个背景想法。

So that was kind of always in the background of my mind.

然后在我做博士后期间，我跟随艾姆斯博士做博士后研究。

And then in my postdoc, I did my postdoc with Doctor.

以及我的同事，希根纳加博士，

Bruce Ames, and my colleague, Doctor.

当时在做大量关于肠道的研究。

Mark Shigenaga, was doing a lot of gut work.

这就是为什么我对LPS和肠道了解这么多。

And this is why I know a lot about the LPS and the gut.

这些知识都是来自他，一个非常聪明的人。

Like, it's from him, like brilliant guy.

他现在是一名摄影师，完全不再从事科学工作，但确实是个天才，做了很多非常出色的实验，研究肠道通透性以及能帮助缓解肠道通透性的因素。

He's now a photographer, like not in science at all, but brilliant guy and did a lot of really amazing experiments looking at, you know, gut permeability and things that can help buffer gut permeability.

其中一种物质就是谷氨酰胺。

And one of those things were glutamine.

所以，谷氨酰胺可以转化为这些中间产物，供肠道上皮细胞中的线粒体使用。

So, glutamine can get converted into these intermediates that are used by mitochondria in the gut epithelial cells.

因此，这对肠道来说也是一种容易获取的能量来源。

And so, that's like an easy source of energy as well for the gut.

这些都是动物研究，对吧？

Now, these are all animal studies, right?

所以，对此要持保留态度，对吧？

So, take it with a grain of salt, right?

因为在我看来，动物研究对于理解事物发挥作用的机制非常重要，我们也需要人体研究。

Like, because at some point, you know, in my opinion, animal studies are really important for understanding the mechanism behind why things work, and we need human studies, you know, as well.

综合所有证据非常重要。

Looking at the totality of evidence is important.

我们缺乏的是人体研究。

It's the human studies that we're lacking.

这方面的研究并不多。

There's not a ton of them there.

我找到的更有说服力的那些研究，至少在肠道健康方面，人类研究的数据很少。

The ones that I have found more compelling, not necessarily, I mean, with the gut health, it's sparse with humans.

在人类研究中，让我觉得更有说服力的是谷氨酰胺对免疫系统的影响。

I found more compelling with respect to glutamine in human studies was the immune system.

正是在这里，我开始把各种线索联系起来，对吧？

And this is where I started connecting the dots, right?

我开始接触到一些关于耐力运动员的文献，他们更容易患上呼吸道感染。

Where I started coming across this literature of these endurance athletes who do get a higher amount of respiratory tract infections.

我说的耐力运动员，是指那些一年到头都在跑马拉松的人。

When I mean endurance athletes, I mean these guys that are like out running marathons all year.

他们就是不停地为马拉松训练，对吧？

Like they're just constantly training for a marathon, right?

所以他们真的承受着巨大的压力，对吧？

And so they're really, like, they're putting a lot of demand, right?

能量消耗以非常高的速率进行。

Energetic expenditure is happening at a really high rate.

因此他们更容易患上呼吸道感染。

So they're more prone to respiratory infections.

有一些研究显示，如果这些运动员服用较高剂量的谷氨酰胺——我认为大概是三十克或更高——他们的呼吸道感染发生率会降低；而一旦停止服用，我就回想起：哦，我知道谷氨酰胺对T细胞活化非常重要。

And there's a few studies out there showing that if these athletes take a higher dose of glutamine, I think it's like thirty grams or something high like that, that they had a lower incidence of respiratory tract infections And than once they weren't doing then I went back to my, oh, I know that glutamine is really important for T cell activation.

于是我决定试试，因为作为妈妈，孩子就像个移动病菌载体，你知道的，你简直快急死了。

And I was like, I'm gonna take this because being being a being a mom and having a child that's bringing everything home like a vector, you know, you're, like, desperate.

你就是那个实验对象。

You're the experiment.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

而且我以前从来不会生病。

And and I never used to get sick ever.

我从来不会生病。

Like, I would never get sick.

然后突然间，我每年会生病三次。

And then all of a sudden, was getting sick, like, three times a year.

我当时想，我是不是得癌症了？

And I was like, Do I have cancer?

到底发生什么事了？

Like, what's going on?

我真的非常担心。

I literally was worried.

然后我开始服用谷氨酰胺。

And then I started taking glutamine.

现在我每天只吃五克，但如果我儿子生病了，或者有接触风险，或者在流感季节，或者我旅行时，我会增加到十五克甚至二十克。

Now, I take it just I only take five grams on a daily basis, but if my son's sick, if there's any exposure, if it's like during the season, if I'm traveling, I go up to fifteen, I go up to twenty.

全部

All

一次？

once?

因为它可能会对……造成一点负担

Because it can be a No, little hard on the

不要一次性全部服用。

not all at once.

不要一次性全部服用。

Not all at once.

我通常分五克一次来吃。

I usually do it like in fives.

所以，五克，五克，再五克。

So, do five grams, five grams, five grams.

我得补充一点，我这么做，但同时也吃很多肌酸。

And I have to with a caveat of I do that, but I also take a lot of creatine as well.

所以我不知道是哪一个，还是两个都有效，但我真的很少生病。

And so I don't know which one or both, but I really don't get sick.

我根本不会生病。

I'm not getting sick.

即使它被带回家，我也不会生病。

And even if it's brought home in my house, I'm not getting sick.

也许这是一种安慰剂效应。

And maybe it's a placebo.

你知道吗？

And you know what?

我对这个挺接受的，因为只要我不生病，安慰剂效应就是真实的。

I am A okay with that because placebo effect is real as long as I'm not getting sick.

所以我认为，关于谷氨酰胺，我不会轻易说有大量确凿的证据表明它能显著改善肠道健康或增强免疫力，比如为免疫细胞提供能量，尤其是在它们需要被激活以应对病原体时。

So I do think, I think with the glutamine, it's not something that I would feel comfortable saying that there's a lot of evidence, it's overwhelming, and with confidence that it's improving gut health and it's improving immune You know, it's gonna help give your immune cells energy, particularly if they need to be activated, you know, upon exposure to any pathogen.

但我认为值得尝试一下。

But I feel like it's worth experimenting with.

也许如果有人患有结肠癌，这就更值得关注了，因为我之前提到过，癌细胞喜欢一切对你有益的东西，对吧？

Perhaps maybe if someone has colon cancer, that would be more of a concern because I did mention that cancer cells love everything, anything that's good for you, right?

叶酸，我的意思是，如果你缺乏叶酸，可能会导致DNA双链断裂，从而引发突变并导致癌症。

Folate, I mean, if you don't have enough folate, you can cause double stranded breaks to your DNA, which lead to mutations that lead to cancer.

但如果你患有癌症并摄入大量叶酸，你需要叶酸来合成新的DNA，而癌细胞恰恰喜欢叶酸，对吧？

But if you have cancer and you take a bunch of folate, you need folate to make new DNA, and so they like the folate, right?

所以，这就像是

So, it's like

这是一种异常生长。

It's an abnormal growth.

因此，任何与此相关的

So, anything that's associated

是的，就像药物促进增殖一样。

Yeah, with drugs proliferating.

mTOR。

AmnTOR.

我看了最近关于牛磺酸的研究，这吓到很多人，因为牛磺酸广泛存在于能量饮料中，但那项研究是在体外进行的。

I saw the recent study on taurine, which scared a lot of people because taurine's in a lot energy drinks, but that was an in vitro study.

是的，我正想问，如果你补充谷氨酰胺，是否会增加患癌风险？因为癌细胞喜欢……

Yes, I was going to ask, is there increased cancer risk if you're supplementing with glutamine because cancer cells like So

我个人的观点，我显然不是医生。

my personal opinion, I'm obviously not a medical physician.

这并不是处方。

This is not a prescription.

这只是我的看法。

It's just my opinion.

我个人并不担心服用谷氨酰胺会得癌症。

I personally am not scared of getting cancer from taking glutamine.

如果我有结肠肿瘤，肿瘤首先接触到的可能是肝脏，因为肝脏也是下一个环节。

If I had a colon tumor, a tumor in my colon, the first sight that the glutamine is seeing maybe the liver as well, since that's also the next step.

但如果没有在肝脏或结肠中已经存在肿瘤，这些才是我会担心服用谷氨酰胺的唯一情况。

But barring having a tumor already in my liver or in my colon, those would be the only types of situations that I would be worried about taking glutamine.

我不认为它会引发癌症，对吧？

I don't think it's gonna cause cancer, right?

现在我想问的是，如果你根本不知道自己有呢？

Now I guess the question is like, what if you don't know you have?

希望全身核磁共振的费用能降下来。

Well, hopefully the cost will come down on whole body MRIs.

实际上，全身核磁共振的费用正在下降。

Actually, the cost is coming down on whole body MRIs.

希望更多人能做这些检查。

Hopefully more people are able to get those.

在未来，这将不再只是高端专属的项目。

It's not just such a high end exclusive thing in the near future.

就像抽血一样，以前做血液检测都是成套的，只有真正需要时才会做。

Kind of like blood draws, used to be like panels of blood testing, you only got them if you really needed them.

现在抽血的费用已经很低了，希望人们能更加重视。

Now the cost of blood draws is really So hopefully people will be more aware.

是的，当我感觉疲惫时，我会每天一次、两次或三次服用一汤匙谷氨酰胺。

Yeah, I will take a tablespoon of glutamine once or twice or three times a day, I'm feeling run down.

你提到过通过各种途径接触病原体。

You mentioned being exposed to pathogens from vectors of different sorts.

在我们开麦之前，我们正在讨论NAC和乙酰半胱氨酸。

Before we went on mic, we were talking about NAC and acetylcysteine.

我每天坚持服用一次，但如果我经常旅行、在旅行中接触病人，尤其是在冬天，或者感觉身体状态下滑时，我会一天服用三次。相关研究数据相当有趣，至少有一项研究显示，在人们被故意暴露于流感病毒的情况下，NAC能降低流感传播率。

I take it once a day consistently, but I'll take it three times a day if I'm traveling a lot, I'm around sick people when I travel, especially in winter, or if I feel like I'm getting run down, there the data are pretty interesting, there's at least one study showing that it reduced flu transmission, where people were deliberately exposed to flu.

我记得数据显示，与安慰剂组相比，感染流感的人数从百分之七十多下降到了百分之二十多，这非常令人印象深刻。一位急诊科医生罗杰·施韦尔特曾做客这个播客，他表示，对于经常接触病人的人，他非常推崇NAC（乙酰半胱氨酸）。

I think it took the number of people that contracted flu compared to the placebo group, somewhere from the high seventy percent area, I don't remember the exact number now, we'll put a link to the study, down to maybe high 20s, which is pretty impressive, And an ER doc came on this podcast, Roger Schweldt, and said he was a big proponent of N acetylcysteine for people that are around sick people.

你有服用NAC吗？

Do you take NAC?

我唯一担心的是，每天服用NAC，因为它是一种非常强效的抗氧化剂。

So my only concern with taking it on a daily basis is it is a pretty powerful antioxidant.

我认为我们需要理解抗氧化剂，以及与之相反的——氧化作用，对吧？

And I think that we need to understand antioxidants and the opposite, which should be generating oxidation, right?

氧化本身并不一定是坏事。

It's not like oxidation is bad.

真正有害的是持续缓慢的氧化过程，它会损害我们身体的其他部分，比如DNA、蛋白质和脂质。

It's bad when it's constant slow drip oxidation that's damaging other parts of our body, DNA, proteins, lipids.

你需要一些氧化，比如当你锻炼时，会产生一波氧化反应。

Some oxidation you want, like if you're exercising, There's a burst of oxidation.

为了获得适应性。

To get the adaptation.

为了获得适应性。

To get the adaptations.

所以我的担忧是，首先，可能要避开锻炼前后的时间，不要在锻炼前后不久服用。

And so my concern would be, for one, maybe timing it around your exercise, so not taking it close to when you're exercising.

这些研究大多来自高剂量维生素E加维生素C的研究。

And these studies come out of studies that have been done with high dose vitamin E plus vitamin C.

我还没看到很多单独使用维生素C会抑制锻炼适应性的研究。

I haven't seen a lot of vitamin C studies alone that are blunting exercise adaptations.

可能有一项高剂量的研究。

There's maybe one at a high dose.

大多数情况下，是维生素C和维生素E，也就是α-生育酚。

Most of the time it's vitamin C and vitamin E, vitamin E alpha tocopherol.

当我说到高剂量时，通常是指四百国际单位。

When I say high dose, usually it's four hundred IUs.

为了给你一个参考，每日推荐摄入量大约是二十四国际单位左右，所以我们说的是——但补充剂

Just to give you a reference point, the RDA is like twenty four IUs or something, so we're talking- But a supplement

剂量可以是两百到八百，所以不小心就很容易抑制运动带来的效果。

can be two hundred to eight hundred, so it wouldn't be hard to blunt that exercise effect by accidentally.

是的，我不吃维生素E，因为它让我前列腺特异性抗原升高了，我听说这是泌尿科医生中已知的效应。

Yeah, I don't take vitamin E, it spiked my prostate specific antigen, which I was told is a known effect among urologists.

SELECT试验已经做过。

The SELECT trial was done.

SELECT试验研究的是硒和维生素E是否能减缓前列腺癌的进展，结果却发现适得其反，这主要是由于高剂量的α-生育酚所致，它还会降低体内另一种具有抗炎作用的维生素E形式——γ-生育酚的水平。

So, the SELECT trial was looking at selenium and vitamin E, and if it could slow the progression of prostate cancer, and it turned out that the opposite was found, and it was really kind of due to this high dose of alpha tocopherol, which also has other effects of lowering another type of vitamin E in the body called gamma tocopherol, which is anti inflammatory.

我认为这可能与炎症实际上会升高PSA有关，对吧？

And I think that has something to do with inflammation actually can increase the PSA, right?

所以总的来说，关于NAC，我唯一的担忧是它可能会抑制你从有益运动中获得的氧化应激，因为我知道你非常活跃。

So anyways, the point here is that with NAC, my only concern would be blunting the oxidation that you're getting from beneficial, because I know you're highly active.

我正在高强度训练，不希望我的训练效果因为NAC而被削弱。

I'm training hard, I don't want my training to be short circuited from NAC.

如果我感觉疲惫或周围有传染病时，我只愿意服用NAC，我更觉得。

I'm perfectly happy to only take NAC if I'm feeling run down or exposed to illnesses around me, more I feel like

所以也许我是在感冒康复后才吃，但主要是因为我之前不了解流感相关的数据。

So that's maybe when coming out I take it, but it's mostly because of I wasn't familiar with the flu influenza data.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

我只是觉得它对肺部健康也有好处。

I was just It's good for lung health too.

不过如果吸烟者服用，我认为会产生相反的效果，因为那些癌前细胞反而会利用它来获益。

Although if smokers take it, I think it has the opposite effect where, again, it's like the precancerous cells are using it to their benefit.

我们过去总以为抗氧化剂很好，越多越好。

You know, we used to think antioxidants, oh, it's so good, you know, just more, more, more.

但事实证明，并非如此，对吧？

And it turns out it's not the case, right?

这就是为什么许多其他类型的激素刺激物或植物植物化学物质，实际上通过激活我们体内的抗氧化通路，来内源性地产生抗氧化反应，这些反应远比你从抗氧化剂中获得的效果要强大得多，对吧？

And that's why a lot of these other types of hormetic stressors or plant phytochemicals, they're actually generating an antioxidant response endogenously in our body by activating these antioxidant pathways, which are so much more powerful than what you would get from an antioxidant, right?

所以这也就是为什么，你并不是完全不需要抗氧化剂。

And so that's kind of And it's not like you don't want some antioxidants.

只是你不希望过量摄入太多的NAC、太多的维生素C和太多的维生素E，因为还有一种叫做还原应激的现象。

It's just like you don't want to overdose on taking too much NAC and too much vitamin C and too much vitamin E because there's also something called reductive stress.

我们都知道氧化应激。

So we know about oxidative stress.

氧化应激是指你导致这些活性氧物种损伤你的DNA等物质，比如说。

Oxidative stress is when you're, know, again, you're causing these reactive oxygen species to damage things like your DNA, for example.

随着时间推移，这种损伤最终可能发生在基因的某个部位，从而具有致癌性并导致癌症。

And over time, eventually that happens in a part of the gene that can be oncogenic and lead to cancer.

而还原应激则恰恰相反。

Well, reductive stress is like the opposite of that.

它指的是过多的还原当量，比如NADH和NADPH。

So, it's like too much of the reducing equivalents, the NADH, the NADPH.

而且它也会产生负面影响。

And it also has negative effects.

所以你不想在光谱的任何一端走得太远。

So you kind of don't wanna go too far on either ends of spectrum.

但更重要的是，与其让这些促氧化剂因不良饮食、炎症等原因缓慢持续泄漏，不如采取其他方式。

But also, wanna instead of having this slow leaking effect of these pro oxidants that are happening from eating a bad diet, from inflammation, things like that.

你希望它是一次短暂的爆发：开启后产生适应性，然后关闭，对吧？

You want it to be a short burst where you switch it on, you have the adaptation, it's off, right?

而适应性发生在恢复期，对吧？

And the adaptation happens in the recovery period, right?

例如，如果你锻炼，就会产生大量活性氧。

For example, if you exercise, that's a big burst of reactive oxygen species.

这是有益的，而且你希望有这种爆发，对吧？

That is beneficial, and you want it, right?

你不希望抑制这些适应性反应。

And you don't want to blunt those adaptations.

所以，这正是我担心每天服用NAC的原因。

So that's kind of my concern with daily dosing of NAC.

很好。

Great.

我不会在抗阻训练后的六到八小时内进行冷水浴，正是因为你说的这个原因。

I don't cold plunge in the six to eight hours after resistance training for exactly the reason you're talking about.

是的，我希望有炎症，希望有血流增加，不想让这些过程被中断。

Yeah, I want the inflammation, I want the increased blood flow, I don't wanna short circuit that.

我只在感觉身体有点透支时才服用NAC，那时我也会服用谷氨酰胺。

I'm perfectly happy to only take NAC under conditions where I'm a bit run down, that's also when I'll take glutamine.

如果你长期停用谷氨酰胺，我 personally 发现，在稳定的淀粉摄入量下，我的力量会稳步提升。

If you take out glutamine regularly, I personally observed that I get stronger at a steady state of starch intake.

我不喜欢把淀粉摄入量降得太低，因为那样我会感到虚弱。

And I don't like dropping starches too low, because I get weak.

对。

Yeah.

如果我的淀粉摄入量太低，我也睡不好。

And I also can't sleep as well if my starches are too low.

我只是太兴奋了。

I just am too wired.

是的。

Yeah.

最近有一项新研究探讨了摄入淀粉对改善睡眠的影响。

There was a new study on eating starches and improving sleep.

我对此非常感激，多年来我在播客中一直谈论这一点，但人们却说：‘哦，你就是狂吃意大利面然后昏睡过去，那才是最糟糕的时间。’

And I'm so grateful for that, for several years I talked about that on the podcast, and people said, Oh, you know, he's gorging himself with pasta, then passing out, and that's the worst time.

我不是那个意思，我是说如果你疯狂运动，我会听到马拉松选手和铁人三项运动员说，他们睡不好，而他们正在疯狂锻炼。

I wasn't saying that, I'm saying that if you're running like crazy, I'll hear from marathoners and ultra people, and people are doing a million things, they'll say, I'm not sleeping well, and they're exercising like crazy.

我会问：‘你上一次吃一碗意大利面是什么时候？’

It's like, Oh, when was the last time you had a bowl of pasta?

他们说：‘哦，不，我不吃意大利面。’

Like, Oh no, I don't eat pasta.

然后他们会吃一些米饭或意大利面。

And then they'll have some rice or some pasta.

哦，我睡得像婴儿一样香。

Like, Oh, I slept like a baby.

他们是在午餐时吃的。

They were having it at lunch.

我只是觉得，当你体内皮质醇水平很高时，大脑很难平静下来。

And I just think that the brain doesn't shut down well when you have high levels of cortisol.

皮质醇和淀粉之间的关系很有趣。

And the cortisol starch thing is an interesting one.

我很高兴你提到这一点，因为这正是我想谈的，而且这与睡前三小时停止进食有关，原因就在这里。

I'm so glad you brought this up because I think this is something that I did wanna talk about, really, and it has to do with stop eating three hours before bed for that very reason.

所以，虽然最近又有一项新研究，但其实已经有多项研究明确表明，这对心血管的恢复非常重要。

So there was a new even a new study, but there's been several studies now really showing that this is important for that cardiovascular reset.

对吧？

Right?

你的副交感神经活动应该会增强。

Your parasympathetic activity is supposed to go higher.

你正处于休息和恢复阶段，对吧？

You're in your rest and recovery phase, right?

当你进食时，那是交感神经活动，对吧？

When you're eating food, that's the sympathetic activity, right?

那是在激活交感神经系统。

That's activating the sympathetic nervous system.

进食的时候。

As you're eating.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

甚至在你消化的时候也是如此。

And even as you're digesting.

所以你得想想这个问题。

So you have to think about it.

比如，你消化食物，大概需要五个小时左右才能完全完成一天的消化。

Like, you digest, and what it takes, like, five or so hours to fully finish about day.

这取决于你吃的是什么餐。

Depending on the meal.

是的。

Yeah.

这取决于你吃的是什么餐。

Depending on the meal.

对。

Right.

所以，如果你在睡觉前马上吃东西，你就没有进入那种你希望拥有的副交感神经活动阶段。

So if you're eating right before you go to bed, you are not in that parasympathetic activity, you know, part of the cycle that you wanna be in.

所以最近还有一项新研究，我几天前刚分享过，显示如果你在睡前三小时停止进食，这些人的状况其实很有趣。

So there was even a new study that I shared, like, I don't know, a couple days ago even, showing that if you stop eating three hours before bed So these people were actually It's interesting.

他们从下午中期开始，一直到整夜，持续测量血压。

They had their blood pressure measured for starting in the mid afternoon all the way throughout the night.

这是第一项真正不仅关注单一终点，而是连续监测血压的研究。

This is the first study that really not just one endpoint looking at blood pressure, but just measuring it continuously.

我不确定是不是每十五分钟测量一次，或者类似的时间间隔。

I don't know if it was every fifteen minutes or something like that.

但研究发现，在睡眠期间，那些在睡前三小时停止进食的人，相比没有这样做的群体，血压下降得更低。

But it was found that during sleep, if they had stopped eating three hours before bed versus the group that did not stop eating three hours before bed, Their blood pressure dipped, like, lower.

所以你会获得那种血压反射性下降，对吧？

So you get that baroreflex dipping, right?

这属于副交感神经激活的一部分。

So this is like part of the parasympathetic activation.

正如你所知，血压下降非常重要。

As you know, very important for the blood pressure to go down.