社交互动与情感的生物学 | Kay Tye博士

我认为，这正是我们的大脑在处理自上而下和自下而上的信息、试图保持专注时所进行的‘舞蹈’。

I think that's sort of the dance that our brain is doing when we have top down and bottom up information that we're trying to stay focused.

对我来说，当我使用社交媒体时，有太多刺激在引发我的反应。

So for me, I think when I'm on social media, there's so many stimuli that that are evoking responses.

而且为了坦诚相告。

And to be completely transparent.

我知道这并不是每个人都会做、能做，或者一定最适合他们的做法。

And I know this is not something that everybody else does or can't do or is necessarily what's best for them.

但我非常努力地从自上而下的角度控制信息输入，因为我真的、真的限制了使用量。

But I work very hard to control input from the top down in terms of I really, really limit the amount.

我基本上不查看邮件，也不上社交媒体。

I I basically don't check email or go on social media.

我每周使用社交媒体或邮件的时间少于一小时，基本上是这样。

I would say I'm on social media or email less than one hour per week, basically.

每周？

Per week?

每周。

Per week.

对此我只能说恭喜。

All I have to say to that is congratulations.

我们一会儿再聊社交媒体，但作为同行教授，每周只看一次邮件。

We'll talk about social media again in a second, but as a fellow professor, email once a week.

我听说过有人会安排固定时间回复邮件，但每周一次，这太棒了。

I've heard of people scheduling their times for email responses, but once a week, that is awesome.

有人帮我处理，然后你就特别高效。

Have people help me get through it, and then you're so productive.

筛选出重要的内容。

Out what's important.

但其他时候，只要我亲自回邮件，就会对所有事情都说好，然后安排一堆计划，结果行程太多，回复也支离破碎。

But otherwise, I just whenever I do my own email, I say yes to all these things, then I make all these plans, and then I'm and then I'm have too many trips, and I'm responding fragmented fragmented.

这就是所谓的过度承诺。

And it's just, you know, overcommitting.

我认为我了解自己的极限。

And I think I know my limits.

有时候，很难在情绪化地应对刺激的同时，让前额叶皮层正常发挥作用。

Sometimes it's difficult for me to be in my amygdala mode responding to stimuli and yet letting my prefrontal cortex do its thing.

因此，我为自己设定了非常严格的、由前额叶主导的输入限制，以便我的大脑能够正常运作、保持清晰。

So I've set some very heavy prefrontal cortically selected limits of the input I put in so that my brain can function and be clear.

我无法发挥创造力。

I can't be creative.

如果满脑子都是回这封邮件、回那封邮件、发推文、发推文，我就无法获得灵感。

I can't have epiphanies if there's all this clutter of writing this person back and blah, blah, blah, blah, tweet, tweet.

呃。

Ugh.

你知道的，我真的很理解这种感觉。

It's just, you know, I love get it.

清理掉垃圾，把大脑擦干净，这样才能真正孕育出美丽而崭新的东西。

The trash Wipe, squeegee the brain down so that we can actually grow something beautiful and new.

嗯，我想再次强调我在开场时说过的话，那就是，你真的非常高效。

Well, and I want to reemphasize what I said in my introduction, which is that, I mean, you are oh, so productive.

当我说高效时，我指的不是那种机械式的、流水线式的高效。

And when I say productive, I don't just mean productive, like plug and chug.

你所做的工作极具创造性。

The work you've done is incredibly creative.

你彻底改变了我们对这个著名结构——杏仁核——实际功能的理解。

You transformed our understanding of what this famous structure, the amygdala, actually does.

我的意思是，你取得了许多重要的发现，这 presumably 是由于其他因素，但也包括你所说的清除所有这些外来信息和杂乱，控制自上而下的输入。

I mean, you've made so many important discoveries as a consequence of presumably other things, but including wiping away all this incoming and clutter, as you said, controlling the top down inputs.

我必须问一下，从实际操作的角度来看，在那一小时里，你是每封邮件都看，还是只是非常有选择性地看某些邮件？

I have to ask, just from a practical standpoint, during that one hour a week, are you reading every email that came in, or are you just being very selective about which emails?

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

所以你并不打开大多数邮件？

So you're not opening most emails?

对。

No.

我不打开大多数邮件。

I don't open most emails.

太惊人了。

Amazing.

对。

No.

我只是搜索我的助手标记为我需要打开的邮件。

I just I search for the ones that my assistant identifies as the one I need to open.

有一份我感兴趣的内容清单，然后我们会浏览这个清单，有时候我需要自己去找那封邮件并回复，因为确实有必要，我会每天花大约十分钟做这件事。

There's like a list of things that I'd be interested in, And then we'll go through the list and then, you know, sometimes it requires me to go and find the email and respond to it myself because it that is and then I would do that for, know, ten ten minutes a day or something.

你建议只是

Do you recommend Just

能赶紧离开那儿就赶紧离开。

get out of there as soon as I can.

太棒了。

Love it.

你会把这些建议传授给你培训的人吗？

Do you pass on this advice to the people that you train?

我觉得这取决于你有什么资源，以及你现在的职位是什么。

I think it depends on what resources and what's your job right now.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得作为学员时，我确实自己处理邮件；当我还是助理教授时，我也自己回邮件。

So I think as a trainee, I definitely did my as a assistant professor, I did my own emails.

但到了某个阶段，我根本处理不完，这让我感到压力很大，觉得不堪重负。

But at a certain point, I was just never getting to the bottom, and then it would just stress me out, make me feel overwhelmed.

那我的工作到底是什么？

And what is my job?

我的工作首先是作为一项可持续研究计划的稳定核心。

My job is to, number one, be a stable core of a sustainable research program.

这要求我拥有良好的心理健康、幸福感和清晰的思维。

And that just requires me having a lot of mental health and well-being and and and clear mindedness.

我需要能够提出创造性的想法。

I need to be able to come up with creative ideas.

我需要能够在截止日期来临时全力冲刺。

I need to be able to sprint when there's a deadline.

我不能因为一些不必要的事务——如果熟悉时间管理四象限的话，我称之为第四象限——而耗尽自己的精力。

And I just can't exhaust my system with unnecessary, I would call them quadrant four in the time management quadrant, if you're familiar with You know?

是的。

Oh, yeah.

那是什么？

What is it?

重要且紧急。

It's important, urgent.

是的。

Yes.

重要。

Important.

紧急但不重要。

Are urgent but not important.

有些事情是紧急的

Some things are urgent

比任何事都重要。

than anything.

既不重要也不紧急。

Are neither important nor urgent.

大多数邮件就是这样，如果你读过时间管理的书籍，而且你有余力请别人帮你，或者有专人受过良好训练来高效处理重要事务，那情况就不同了。

That's most emails are are and and like, if you read time management literature and you have the luxury to have someone else help you or something that's, like, so well trained to be really good at capturing things that are important.

你知道，有时候我会漏掉邮件，但邮件并不是我的学员联系我的方式。

And, you know, sometimes I miss emails, but emails are not the way my trainees would reach me.

他们会通过另一种方式联系我。

They would reach me in a different way.

而邮件则是给我那些我没有提供号码的人用的，你知道的。

And then emails are for everyone else that I didn't give my number to, you know.

能收到你的联系方式，我感到非常荣幸。

I feel so honored to have your contact.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商 Athletic Greens。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens.

Athletic Greens，现在叫 AG1，是一种含有维生素、矿物质和益生菌的饮品，能满足你所有的基础营养需求。

Athletic Greens, now called AG1, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs.

我从2012年开始服用 Athletic Greens，因此很高兴他们能赞助这个播客。

I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

我开始服用 Athletic Greens，以及至今仍每天服用一到两次的原因，是因为它能提供我肠道健康所需的益生菌。

The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health.

我们的肠道非常重要，它寄居着与大脑、免疫系统以及身体几乎所有生物系统进行沟通的肠道微生物群，对我们的即时和长期健康产生深远影响。

Our gut is very important, it's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health.

Athletic Greens中的益生菌对微生物群健康至关重要且最为理想。

And those probiotics in Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiota health.

此外，Athletic Greens含有多种适应原、维生素和矿物质，确保我所有的基础营养需求都得到满足，而且味道很棒。

In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins, and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met and it tastes great.

如果你想尝试Athletic Greens，可以访问athleticgreens.com/huberman，他们会赠送你五份免费的旅行装，让你在外出、开车、乘飞机时也能轻松冲泡Athletic Greens，还会赠送你一年份的维生素D3K2。

If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, etcetera, And they'll give you a year supply of vitamin D3K2.

再次提醒，访问athleticgreens.com/huberman，即可获得五份免费旅行装和一年份的维生素D3K2。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D3K2.

我认为这对人们来说是非常棒的建议。

I think this is wonderful advice for people to hear.

我们未来的一位嘉宾名叫卡尔·纽波特。

We have a future guest on this podcast named Cal Newport.

他写了《深度工作》这本书，还有一本名为《无邮件的世界》的书。

He wrote the book Deep Work, and he has another book called The World Without Email.

他是乔治城大学的计算机科学教授，深入探讨了你所描述的这种生活方式在职业、人际关系以及人生中的巨大价值。

He's a computer science professor at Georgetown where he talks extensively about the tremendous career, but also relationship and life value of doing essentially what you're describing.

不过，凯，我认为你代表了我所了解到的、能够将使用社交媒体和电子邮件的时间限制到极低水平的那种极端情况。

Although I do think, Kay, that you represent kind of the extreme of what I've become aware of in terms of people that can limit the amount of time on social media platforms and email.

总之，我只是想祝贺你。

Anyway, I just want to say congratulations.

我想再重复一遍。

I just want to say that again.

我认为，即使人们无法将使用时间减少到每周一小时，但努力减少信息输入——正如你所说，控制对杏仁核以及参与创造性思维的其他大脑区域的自上而下的刺激——是非常关键的。

I think even if people don't reduce to one hour per week, I think that making some effort toward reducing the amount of incoming, as you said, controlling the top down inputs to the amygdala, but also to the rest of the brain involved in creative processing, etcetera, is so key.

而且我们确实拥有自主权。

And we actually do have agency.

只是有时候，培养这种自律确实很难。

It's just as it's tough sometimes to build up that discipline.

你通过分享像你这样成功的人也这样做，实际上提供了巨大的帮助，而你的成功很可能部分正是源于这种做法。

So you're doing a tremendous service by sharing that somebody as successful as you does this, presumably is successful in part because you do this.

那么，由此延伸，我们是否可以说，由于数十亿人使用社交媒体，他们很可能不断激活自己的杏仁核，从而掩盖了大脑其他更有可能带来成效的神经回路的活动，仅仅因为自己对他人想法、言语和冲动完全敞开？

Could we, by extension, say that many people, since billions of people are on social media, are likely triggering the activation of their amygdala, clouding out other more potentially productive activation of their neural circuits by sort of just making themselves freely available to the thoughts and words and impulses of others?

我的意思是，对我来说，答案似乎是肯定的，但我很想听听你的看法。

I mean, to me, it seems the answer would be yes, but I'd like to know what you thought.

我的意思是，我认为这确实有其道理。

I mean, I think and there's something to be said.

当然，我确实有过一些时候，深深沉浸在社交媒体里，在某个时间段内花了比平时多得多的时间，这种情况是孤立发生的。

There's definitely been moments where I've I've, you know, gone deep into social media and spent more time in a certain burst, right, that is isolated.

我认为社交媒体上有很多值得学习的东西。

And I think that there's a lot to be learned from social media.

所以回到你之前提到的一点：在社交媒体上，有时人们只是想要认可，而有时则充满了摩擦。

So to actually to bring it back to one point you mentioned earlier, on social media, sometimes people just want accolades, and sometimes there's a lot of of friction.

我之所以继续留在社交媒体上，尽管我正在努力清理自己的意识，正是因为这种反馈。

One of the reasons I stay on social media, even though I'm making this big effort to sort of declutter my consciousness is because of that feedback.

尤其是对你这样的人，我想这一定特别明显。

Especially when, you know, for someone like you, I I imagine this has gotta be super true.

甚至在我职业生涯的某个阶段，我感觉人们越来越不愿意当面告诉我坏消息了。

And even for me at a certain point of my career, it just felt like people don't wanna tell me bad news to my face as much anymore.

每个人总是那么积极乐观。

Everybody's so positive all the time.

你知道吗，他们真正想的是什么？

And, you know, what they what are they really thinking?

而且

And

社交媒体让你能以匿名的方式毫无顾忌地说出真实想法。

social media allows you the protection of anonymity to say what you really think without consequence, essentially.

因此，一方面，这种可以随心所欲发言而无需承担后果的特性可能非常危险。

And so on the one hand, the consequence free nature of being able to just say things can be very dangerous.

但与此同时，对我来说，我非常珍惜能够接收到这些真实反馈。

But at the same time, for me, I really value just being able to receive it.

我是个成熟的女性了。

I I'm, you know, I'm a big girl.

当我接收所有信息时，我知道该怎么筛选出我想听的部分。

I can filter out what I want when I get the all the inputs.

但如果我收不到这些反馈，有时就很难从我未接收到的反馈中学习。

But if I don't receive the inputs, sometimes it's hard to learn from the feedback I'm not getting.

所以即使有时反馈是以不太友善的方式给出的，我仍然可以为那些持有这种观点的人构建一个模型，让我带在身边，这也能成为我未来轻松尊重的另一种视角，因为我具备了理解为什么有人会对这件事感到不安的心理理论。

So even sometimes feedback's given in a not very nice way, I can still create a model for someone else that has this perspective that I can take with me and that can be another perspective I can honor easily in the future because I have this theory of mind for someone someone would get upset about that.

你知道，这对那些具备这种心理理论的人来说，可能是一种有害的东西。

You know, that's something that could be harmful to people who are, you know, have this theory of mind.

所以从这个角度来看，我觉得它非常有价值，这也是我继续使用它的原因。

So I think it's super valuable from that perspective, and that's why I continue to use it.

很好。

Great.

是的。

Yeah.

我也非常赞赏这一点。

I I really applaud that as well.

我总是会阅读我的教学评估，因为它们是匿名的。

I I always read my teaching evals because they're anonymous.

是的，我确实会想知道，那些给出了不同评价的人分别得了什么分数。

And yes, I do wonder, you know, what grade the different people who gave different evals, you know, got.

我不了解这些信息。

I don't know that information.

我有时会想，他们是否真的来上过课，还是只是因为考试没考好而生气？

I sometimes wonder, did they attend the class or are they just angry they didn't do well on the exam?

但这些其实只是我偶尔会琢磨的那极少部分反馈。

But that really represents the small fraction of feedback that I'm that I wonder about.

对我来说最有价值的反馈是：‘老师，我喜欢这门课，但这些部分真的很差劲。’

Most of it that's valuable to me is the, hey, you know, liked the course, but these parts really sucked, professor Huberman.

或者：‘这部分完全没讲清楚’，或者‘我完全讨厌你那样如何如何’。

Or this part was completely unclear or completely hated the way you blank, blank, and blanked.

因为这类反馈是我真正可以用来改进的。

Because that feedback is something I can really work with to improve.

所以我觉得课程评价和你描述的很相似。

So I think course evals are are similar to what you're describing.

我认为那里有价值。

I think there's value there.

如果我只看正面反馈，忽略负面反馈，然后就此放弃那些人，我认为我作为教师无法进步。

If I were to just look at the the positive feedback and then ignore the negative feedback and then write those people off, then I don't think I could improve as a teacher.

正因为如此，我总是鼓励大家在本播客的YouTube评论区留下评论、反馈和建议。

Actually, I always encourage comments and feedback and suggestions in the YouTube comments for this podcast for that reason.

我确实会阅读评论。

And I do read the comments.

我会一一浏览，读完之后，有几条确实让人难受。

I go through and I read and a few of them sting.

是的。

Yeah.

但正面反馈也非常好。

But, you know, the positive feedback is great too.

有时候更像是这种：求求了。

Sometimes it's more of this, please.

是的。

Yep.

或者少做那些事，我认为这其中也有信息。

Or less of that, I think there's information in that.

对。

Yeah.

所以我觉得听起来你一直都在自然地做这些事。

So I think it sounds like you've been doing all of these things naturally.

我

I

所以实际上，自从我组建了研究团队、我的实验室以来，我们每十八个月左右会进行一次匿名实验室调查，整个过程非常繁琐。

So so actually, in since I've had my research group, my my lab, we do an anonymous lab survey every it's supposed to be about every eighteen months, and then it's a whole long process of going through it.

而且这个流程已经不断演变了。

And it's just evolved.

我想这是我们进行的第四次或第五次了。

It's I think it's the fourth or fifth time we've done it.

所以现在我觉得有大约70个问题。

And so it's now I think it's, like, 70 questions.

问题太多了。

It's so many questions.

也许我们应该精简一下，但结果往往变成数百页的文字，你知道的，有简短回答，有时是长回答，来自我实验室里人们匿名的反馈。

Got maybe we should we should trim it down, but it it ends up being hundreds of pages of of text, you know, short answer, sometimes long answer, feedback from anonymously from people in my lab.

我的实验室挺大的，所以你知道，我根本不想猜是谁说的。

My lab is pretty big, so it's it's you know, I'm I'm not even trying to really guess who is saying it.

这纯粹是反馈，我花几个月时间来处理和整理所有反馈。

It's just feedback, and it takes me months to go through with it and and get all the feedback.

这真的非常有用。

And it is so useful.

我的意思是，在课堂上，你与学生的互动仅限于这个特定的时间和空间。

I mean, in a class, the the the amount of contact that you have is it's it's restricted to this very specific time and space.

而当你在多年间指导一个人时，会有许多不同的内容和互动点。

Whereas when you're mentoring someone over the cross course of years, there's a lot of different there's a lot of different points of of content and interaction.

而且你知道，你每周在实验室待四十个小时，或者类似的时间，还要参加各种会议。

And, you know, you're in the lab all forty hours a week or whatever and, you know, going trip meeting here.

有很多不同的改进方式，而我从未接受过如何成为一名优秀导师的培训。

There's just a lot of different different ways to improve and ways we've never you know, I I haven't had any training in how to be a really great mentor.

所以我现在正在接受这方面的培训。

And so I'm getting that training now.

我在自己设计一门课程，而我的学生就是我的老师。

I'm making my own course, and my mentees are my teachers.

我真的很感激他们在匿名实验室调查中免费给予我的指导。

And I really am grateful for the the tutelage that they provide for free in this anonymous must lab survey.

有时这让我想哭，但有时也让我对自己正在做且有效的事情感到非常欣慰。

Sometimes it makes me cry, but sometimes it makes me feel really good about something that I'm doing that's working.

无论如何，它让我觉得自己掌握了真实的情况。

And in any case, it makes me feel that I have ground truth.

我想我还是不太清楚。

I guess I still don't know.

但当人们说出一些刺耳的话时，我会觉得他们是在表达真实的想法，没有任何保留。

But when people say things that sting, it makes me feel like they're saying what they really think, and they're not holding back.

这并不意味着，你知道吗？

It doesn't you know?

坏消息让人感觉像是现实。

And bad news feels like reality.

因此，这种感觉非常特别，也很有回报。

And so that is very something about that is rewarding.

只是觉得我接触到的是真实情况，而不是其他什么，你知道吗？

Just to feel like I have reality rather than I'm getting something else, you know?

这个模型并不完全契合，当模型不够贴合时，会让人非常不满意。

The the model doesn't quite It's very unsatisfying when the model doesn't quite fit.

所以我特别喜欢‘真实数据’这个词。

So I love the words ground truth.

这个词有一种美妙的意味，我完全能理解你所说的。

There's something so beautiful to that, and I I resonate with what you're saying.

让我们回到社交互动，这是你们实验室目前大量研究的领域。

Let's go back to social interaction, something that your lab is doing lots of work on nowadays.

也许我们可以转向大多数人都熟悉的那种社交互动。

And maybe we could shift to the sorts of social interaction that most of us are familiar with.

比如面对面坐着，和某人一起喝咖啡，或者一起散步，也许打个电话。

The sitting across the table, having a coffee with somebody, that taking a walk with somebody, maybe a phone call.

是的。

Yep.

也许是一次艰难的对话，也许是一次轻松、无剧本的交谈，或者是在节日聚餐时的互动。

Maybe a tough conversation, maybe a playful, you know, you know, unscripted conversation, maybe a meal at a holiday dinner.

你知道，这其中的范围非常广泛。

You know, there's a huge range there.

关于社交互动在核心生理需求层面的价值，我们了解多少？

What what do we know about the value of social interaction at the level of sort of core biological needs?

比如，在神经回路甚至激素层面？

Like, at the level of neural circuits and maybe even hormones.

我的意思是，大多数人听说过催产素。

I mean, you know, most people have heard of oxytocin.

他们觉得它是爱的激素，但实际上它还有很多人们不了解和认识的方面。

They think the love hormone, but it's there's so much more there for people to understand and know about.

你知道，我们所说的社交互动有多重要？当我们得不到恰当的社交互动时，情况会变得多糟？

Know, how important is this thing that we call social interaction and how bad do things get when we're not getting the right kinds of social interaction?

你知道，我觉得这是个非常好的问题，我很高兴社交支持对我们福祉的重要性，现在已得到更广泛和国家级别的认可。

You know, I think this is this is a great question, and I'm glad that it's become something that has been recognized at a more global and national scale, just the importance of of having social support in our lives for help for our well-being.

但社交孤立，甚至仅仅是感知到的孤独，对所有社会性物种都有巨大的健康影响。

But social isolation or even just perceived loneliness has immense health consequences for all social species.

比如寿命缩短、情绪障碍增加，以及癌症或心脏病等疾病的发生率和死亡率上升——这些可能并不是我们通常会想到的关联。

So shortened lifespan, increased mood disorders, increased, actually, morbidity and mortality for diseases like cancer or heart disease that might not be what we would normally think.

因此，我认为理解这些过程是如何发生的，这些机制远未被完全阐明。

And so I think understanding how each of those processes is happening, those mechanisms are far from being worked out.

但相关的证据是无可否认的。

But the the correlational evidence is undeniable.

我们现在第一次真正地将这一点带入实验室研究。

We're now taking this into the lab really for the first time.

所以像社会隔离这样简单的事情，为什么我们对它的了解却如此之少？

And so something so simple as social isolation, how come we don't know way more about it?

我是在疫情之前偶然进入社会隔离这个研究领域的。

And I'm someone who stumbled into the field of social isolation by accident prior to the pandemic.

我要说的是，我们神经科学界对社会隔离知之甚少，这个问题的根源其实要追溯到哈洛的早期研究——那种母子分离的实验，其残忍程度是无可争议的。

And so I'll just say, you know, the whole story on why there's such a gaping hole in our knowledge as a neuroscience community about social isolation really comes from Harry Harlow's work, this original work of maternal separation that was undeniably cruel.

这些幼猴因此受到了不可逆转的伤害，而且从未恢复过来。

It it caused irreparable damage to these baby monkeys, and they never recovered.

抱歉，我打断一下。

And Sorry to interrupt.

我平时努力不打断别人。

I I'm just striving to not interrupt in my life.

但为了让大家跟上思路，你能简单描述一下哈洛的实验吗？

I but so that people are on on board, could you just briefly describe the Harlow experiments?

是的。

Yes.

这些实验非常著名，它们将小猴子与母亲分离，然后提供一个带有奶瓶的金属丝框架。

So they're very famous experiments where they separated baby monkeys from their moms and then had either a wire sort of thing holding a bottle.

好吧。

So okay.

你最想念母亲的什么？

What what do you miss most about the mom?

是金属丝框架，是食物，还是温暖的安抚？

Is it the wire is it the food, or is it the the the comfort?

他们设置了两种选择：一种是带有奶瓶的金属丝框架，另一种是毛毯和柔软舒适的物品。

And then they had so they had a wire thing with with a milk bottle versus, you know, blankets and cuddly soft things.

小猴子们会跑去拥抱那些柔软舒适的东西。

And and the the baby monkeys would go to the cuddly soft thing.

但你知道，一条毛毯并不能替代母亲。

But, you know, a blanket is not a replacement for a mother.

没有人说它是。

Nobody's saying that it is.

通过这些实验，幼猴经历了长期的母爱分离，这被认为是残忍的。

And and through these experiments, there was extended maternal separation, and it's it it was deemed cruel.

当你重新安置这些猴子时，它们会遭受永久且不可逆的伤害。

There was permanent irreparable damage when you when you rehoused these monkeys.

它们再也无法正常地重新融入社会。

They never resocialized normally.

它们出现了许多心理健康和身体健康问题。

They had lots of different mental and physical health problems.

我认为在人类身上，我们也知道，单独监禁被视为酷刑。

And I think in humans, we know that, you know, solitary confinement is considered torture.

你知道，在很多情况下，社会隔离都是很难研究的。

You know, social isolation is a difficult thing to study in in a lot of conditions.

我们通过一次完全偶然的发现触及了这一点——当时我和我实验室的一位前博士后吉莉安·马修斯合作，她当时还是研究生，正在做一项实验，只是想弄清楚这些多巴胺神经元是否也会像VTA8那样对可卡因产生反应。

And we stumbled onto it by complete accident through working with a postdoc, a former postdoc in my lab, Jillian Matthews, who was a graduate student doing an experiment on on it was just trying to figure out if these dopamine neurons would also respond to cocaine the way v t eight these sorry.

这些腹侧被盖区多巴胺神经元已知会对可卡因产生反应。

These ventral tegmental area dopamine neurons were known to respond to cocaine.

我们想看看其他多巴胺神经元是否也会对可卡因产生反应。

Wanted to see if these other dopamine neurons respond to cocaine.

所以这是一项渐进式的研究。

So sort of a incremental study.

当你进行可卡因研究时，你会给动物注射可卡因或生理盐水，然后让未处理过的动物留在笼子里。

So when you do these cocaine studies, you you inject the animal with cocaine or saline, and they'll leave the naive animal in the cage.

然后你取脑切片，记录神经元活动，并观察突触强度的变化。

And then you take brain slices, record from the neurons, and look at the synaptic strengths.

因此，预期的结果是，这些多巴胺神经元会像其他已知在单次可卡因注射后出现长期增强效应的多巴胺神经元一样。

And so, you know, the expected outcome sort of was that these dopamine neurons would would be similar to other dopamine neurons that showed in, you know, long lasting potentiation after a single dose of cocaine.

但实际发生的情况是，可卡因确实引发了增强效应。

But what happened instead was that, yes, there was potentiation of the cocaine.

但生理盐水组动物相对于对照组也出现了增强效应，这成了一个巨大的谜题。

There's also potentiation in the saline animals relative to the naive group, and this was a huge puzzle.

这是什么？

What was this?

经过大量实验后，我们发现这是因为当你给动物注射可卡因时，你把它们从群体中隔离了。

And it turned out through many, many different experiments that it's actually because when you inject animals with cocaine, you're separating them from the group.

没错。

Exactly.

我当时觉得自己疯了。

And I felt crazy.

这就是人们做实验的方式。

And this is what the way people did the experiment.

所以你给它们注射生理盐水，然后把它们分开。

So you inject them with saline, you separate them.

那些未经处理的动物就留在原地。

The naive animals just stay there.

和它们的其他同伴在一起。

So With their other litter mates.

其他同窝的幼崽。

Other litter mates.

我明白了。

I see.

所以对照组，也就是生理盐水对照组，实际上是一种社会隔离状态。

So the control group, the saline control group is actually a social isolation condition.

因此，无意中，这个原本说不通的对照组让我们发现了这一点。

So by accident, this control group that didn't make sense was how we stumbled onto.

于是我们尝试，是新笼子的原因吗？

So then we tried, is it novel cage?

不是新笼子的原因。

It's not the novel cage.

是社会隔离造成的。

It's the it's the social isolation.

因此，我们成为了研究社会隔离的实验室。

And so that is how we became a lab that studied social isolation.

这完全是偶然的。

It was complete accident.

我们当时也不确定自己在观察什么。

We weren't sure what what we were looking at.

然后我们发现了这些神经元，对它们进行操控后，它们产生的效果与其他多巴胺神经元截然不同——通常情况下，当人们提到多巴胺神经元时，指的是腹侧被盖区、中脑的这些多巴胺神经元。

And then we we found these neurons, and we manipulate these neurons, and they produced something very different than other dopamine neurons, which normally, if you stimulate dopamine neurons, these ventral tegmental area, midbrain dopamine neurons, like, 90% of the time when you you hear people talk about dopamine neurons, they mean these ones.

这些神经元的特点是，只要按下杠杆刺激它们，动物就会反复按下成千上万次。

And they're the ones where you press the lever, stimulate the neurons, well, press the lever thousands of times.

你知道吧？

You know?

而且如果

And if

它们非常喜欢被刺激。

They love to be stimulated.

是的。

Yes.

如果你是人类，服用可卡因的话，大多数人都是很喜欢可卡因的。

And if if you're a human and you do cocaine, you you most people love cocaine.

他们在吸食可卡因后会变得非常乐于社交。

They they want they're very pro social when they're okay on cocaine.

因此，人们原本以为多巴胺神经元就是做这个的。

And so that's what dopamine neurons were thought to be doing.

但这些位于背缝核的其他多巴胺神经元——我也要说明一下，它们位于脑干、靠近导水管的地方，可以接收来自身体的信号。

But these other dopamine neurons in the dorsal raphe that I will also say is in the brain stem near to an aqueduct where you could detect signals from the body.

但这些位于缝核的其他多巴胺神经元，当你刺激它们时，动物并不喜欢。

But these other dopamine neurons in the raphe, they when you stimulate them, animals don't like it.

它们不会为了奖励而努力工作。

They will not work for reward.

它们实际上会主动远离受到刺激的区域。

They actually will move away from a space that's where they're being stimulated.

你知道的，条件性位置厌恶和实时位置回避。

You know, conditioned place and real time place aversion.

我不喜欢这些神经元被激活的感觉。

I don't like the feeling of these neurons being activated.

请停下来。

Please stop it.

但它们却会让人变得亲社会。

And yet, they would be prosocial.

因此，长期以来这一直让人非常困惑。

And so for a long time, this was super confusing.

我们无法理解它。

We couldn't understand it.

恰好当时我们实验室正在进行一项关于饥饿的研究，于是我们想到：我可以因为食物美味而吃东西，想吃这种美味的零食。

And then just because at the same time we had a hunger study going on in the lab, we just thought about it, like, I can eat food because it's delicious, and I I wanna eat this yummy treat.

或者我也可以因为极度饥饿而吃东西。

Or I could eat because I'm super hungry.

我感觉浑身发抖。

I feel shaky.

我太绝望了，所以干脆不背背包，直接吃这个难吃的纤维棒。

I'm just gonna eat this nasty fiber bar without my backpack because I'm so desperate.

我需要，我的血糖已经低到危险水平了，你知道吧？

And I need, like, I need my my blood sugar is dangerously low, You know?

所以你进食的原因有两个，其中一个让人不舒服。

And so there's two reasons that you could eat, and one of them is uncomfortable.

饥饿并不舒服。

Hunger is not comfortable.

你不会觉得饿是一种好感觉。

You don't it's not a good feeling to be hungry.

于是我们想到了这一点，就这样兜了一圈，最终意识到：我想我们发现了孤独神经元。

And so we thought about this, and that's kind of how we circularly came around to thinking I think we've discovered the loneliness neurons, essentially.

那么，孤独是什么？

And so what is loneliness?

孤独是一种令人不快的需求状态，渴望社交接触，而这种接触也会产生亲社会效应。

And loneliness is this unpleasant need state of wanting social contact that would have this prosocial effect as well.

因此，这就是我偶然发现孤独在大脑中如何被表征的曲折而幸运的路径。

And so that's basically the very serendipitous loop de loop way that I came to be studying how loneliness is represented in the brain.

太神奇了。

Amazing.

在我们进一步讨论这些孤独神经元及其在大脑中的输入和输出之前，这个发现有没有改变你安排日常生活和周计划的方式呢？

Before we talk a bit more about these loneliness neurons and some of their inputs and outputs in the brain, how has the discovery of these neurons perhaps changed the way that you organize your day and week in life, right, if at all?

例如，你现在是否更关注自己独处与社交的时间比例？

For instance, are you more aware of how much time you spend alone versus with others?

你是否更谨慎或更有选择性地决定和谁共度时光？

Are you more careful or discerning about who you spend your time with?

我这么问是因为，在神经科学文献中，我见过太多这样的例子：当我学到大脑运作的新知识时，就会想，哦，难怪我的睡眠一直不好。

You know, I I ask this because, you know, there's so many examples for me in the neuroscience literature where, you know, I learned something new about how the brain works and I think, oh yeah, you know, it makes a lot of sense why my sleep isn't great.

原来，白天特定时段眼睛接触光线，真的能调节整个身体和大脑的节律，这解释了为什么我在读研时通宵做实验、白天睡大觉，以为自己睡了八九个小时，却还是感到有点抑郁。

You know, it turns out that light exposure to the eyes at particular times of the day really sets the whole body and brain into particular rhythms that, you know, explain why I was a little depressed when I was in graduate school, staying up all night doing experiments, and I'd sleep much of the day and feel like I was getting eight, nine hours.

我现在睡不到八九个小时，但你知道的？

I don't get eight to nine hours now, but, you know?

当我早起时，对我个人而言，这有一种轻微的抗抑郁效果

And when I wake up early, for me personally, there's a bit of an antidepressant effect

嗯。

Mhmm.

只要我前一晚睡好了。

As long as I slept the night before.

季节性情绪障碍是真实存在的。

Seasonal effect disorder is real.

没错。

Right.

所以，随着新信息不断出现，至少对我来说，它已经以微妙或不太微妙的方式改变了我安排生活的方式。

So, you know, I think as new information comes online, at least for me, it's it's changed the way that I organize my life to to in subtle or or in not so subtle ways.

因此，大脑中存在编码孤独感、即社会接触缺失的神经元，这让你在管理实验室几天后产生思考吗？正如你所说，你有一个非常大的实验室，社交互动很多，但这些都是工作场景中的社交互动。

So the idea that there are neurons in the brain that encode loneliness, the absence of social contact, does that have you thinking, you know, after a few days of managing the lab with which, as you point out, you have a very large lab, lots of social interaction, but it's work context social interaction.

这是否让你想到，我们应该组织实验室聚餐，或者该去和非科学领域的人相处，又或者该独处一段时间，因为社交互动太多了？

Does that has that led you to think, hey, you know, we should go out to dinner as a lab or I should spend time with somebody who's not in science or I should spend time by myself because I've had too much social interaction.

我不是在这里要求严格的规程。

I'm not asking for strict protocols here.

我只是想知道，你是否愿意和我一起在这个领域里探索一下。

I'm just wondering if you're willing to get, like, play in the sandbox of this with me a bit.

是的。

Yeah.

这些信息是如何影响了你的一些选择的。

How this information perhaps has shaped some of your choices.

就你个人而言。

You personally.

我要说得清楚一点，我并不是在要求你规定别人该怎么做。

To be very clear, I'm not asking you to dictate what other people do.

不，当然不会。

No, of course.

它改变过你的社交生活吗？

Has it changed your social life?

你问这个问题真的很有趣。

So it's really interesting that you ask this question.

现在你这样问，我的意思是，当然，当我学到新东西时，我会把它应用到我的生活中。

And now that you for you know, now that you're asking it this way, I I mean, of course, when I learn new things, I I I take them and implement them into my life.

但说实话，在学习、研究和保持好奇心的循环中，我更多时候是当一些事情发生在我身上时，我的研究项目——你知道，研究就是我，探索。

But to be honest, in in the cycle of of, you know, learning and studying and being curious, I actually think where I reside more is when something's going on with me, my research program, you know, research is me, search.

它决定了研究项目如何演变。

It becomes what the re it dictates what the research program evolves into.

比如，我在疫情爆发前几年就开始研究孤独感。

And so for for example, so I was Justin started studying loneliness a few years before the pandemic hit.

然后疫情来了，那是一种突变式的改变。

And then the pandemic hit, and it was just a step function like change.

我以前从不独处，除非你把一个人坐优步或坐飞机也算作独处。

I went from, I'm never alone unless you call being in an Uber alone or being on a plane.

而且我办公室里总是有人，甚至我去洗手间时，外面都有人等着，你知道，我简直是在赶着上厕所。

And and and just, you know, constantly people in my office, even when I'm going to bathroom, someone's waiting for me outside like, you know, I'm not it's like I'm hurrying in the bathroom.

我从不孤单。

I'm never alone.

床上有四个人踢我的脸。

There's like four people in my bed kicking me in the face.

我只是觉得，社交互动太多了，然后突然就没了。

I'm just you know, there's just so much social contact and then boom.

有时候一整天都见不到任何人，不是完全为零，但社交接触量骤降，尤其是工作停止之后，就是那段时期。

You know, there would be a day I wouldn't see another like, you know, just the not zero, but just extremely sudden drop of social contact when there's no more work and, you know, it was just that that period of time.

那段时间非常压抑。

And it was it was very depressing.

我感觉自己在自由落体。

It was just this huge I felt like I was in free fall.

这让我一开始非常困扰，我担心自己，你知道吗？

And it made me you know, at first, it was really disruptive and I was worried about myself, you know?

但后来某一天，我适应了这种状态。

And then at some point, I adjusted to it.

然后我习惯了在家工作。

And then I got used to working from home.

我开始种菜园。

I got started a garden.

就像，我得到了这一切，你知道的，我 просто开始了一种新的生活方式，充满了独处时光，而以前根本没有空间让这种个人独处生活成长，后来我就适应了这种状态。

Like, I got all this, you know, I I got, you know, I just started a different life pattern that involved a lot of alone time and, you know, something an alone time personal life a grew where there wasn't any space for anything to grow before, and then I became comfortable with it.

于是，我开始思考，正是在这种情况下，社会稳态这个想法诞生了。

And so then I start thinking about that that's really where the idea of social homeostasis was born.

这个想法是，好吧。

This idea that, okay.

为什么在急性社交孤立的情况下，人类、猴子、老鼠，你知道的，当你把个体从社交群体中完全隔离出来时。

Why is it with acute social isolation, Humans, monkeys, mice, you know, you acutely isolate the individual from the social group.

当你重新将它们 reintroduce 到社交群体中时，会出现社交互动的反弹。

You reintroduce them to the social group, rebound of pro social interaction.

哦，真高兴见到你。

Oh, so happy to see you.

有大量这种亲社会互动，突然爆发出来。

There's, like, all these affiliative interactions, a huge a burst of affiliative interactions.

而在长期社会隔离的情况下，无论是人类、猴子、小鼠，甚至果蝇，当你将它们重新引入社交群体时，会出现领地行为、攻击性、回避、反社会行为，或者对群体接触产生一种截然不同的负面反应。

Whereas with chronic social isolation in humans, monkeys, mice, even flies, you reintroduce them to the social group, and you get territorial behavior, aggression, avoidance, antisocial behavior, or just, you know, sort of a very different negative valence response to the exposure to the group.

因此，长期以来，人们可能只是轻描淡写地认为：哦，这太混乱了。

And so this maybe people brushed it off for a long time as just, oh, it's confusing.

这些研究结果并不一致。

This literature is inconsistent.

或者，也许有一种模型能解释所有现象，那就是社会稳态——你知道，当你习惯在某个程度上获得这些互动时。

Or maybe there's one model that makes it all make sense that is social home homeostasis where, you know, you're used to getting this at a certain point.

于是我的效应系统就被激活了。

And so my effector system gets activated.

我察觉到自己是孤单的。

I I detect that I'm alone.

我想要更多。

It's I want more.

这种缺失被检测到了。

The deficit's detected.

然后我的效应系统被激活，接着我开始调动所有试图让我重新建立联系的系统。

Then my effector systems gets activated this and then I start spinning all the systems that try to get me back into contact.

我在给朋友打电话。

I'm calling my friends.

我在给朋友发短信。

I'm texting my friend.

如果我是一只老鼠，我会发出超声波叫声。

I'm I'm if I'm a mouse, I'm making ultrasonic vocalizations.

我在探索社区之外的地方。

I'm exploring outside of the borough.

然后，如果你的朋友没有回你，他们会说：抱歉。

And then, you know, if my friends don't call me back, they're like, sorry.

我们直到疫情结束都不想见任何人。

We don't wanna see anyone till end of COVID.

再见。

Bye.

不管是什么，你知道，它就是不管用。

Whatever it is, you know, you the it's it's not working.

我的修正努力失败了，或者可能经过了一定时间。

My correction efforts are failing or maybe a certain amount of time.

我们不知道。

We don't know.

然后我就放弃了。

Then I give up.

我不再打电话了。

I stop I stop calling.

我不再出门了。

I stop going out.

我只是过上了另一种生活。

I just make a different life.

你知道吧？

You know?

你们这些人啊，就是不出 borough，不管那是什么。

You you the the the you guys don't you don't leave the borough, whatever it is.

在动物和人类身上，至少在行为上，会有一个近乎骤降的放弃趋势——你可以看到，比如某天之后，他们就彻底放弃约会了，你知道的，不管发生了什么。

And there's in in animals and humans, at least behaviorally, there's a near step function like drop off of attempts to you know, you could see a sort of date oh, then they just give up on dating after this one, you know, whatever happens.

总有一根稻草压垮骆驼，然后这个人就不想再约会了，也不想再出门了，不管怎样。

There's some some straw that breaks the camel's back, and then this person doesn't wanna date anymore or doesn't wanna go out anymore, whatever.

那到底是什么？

And and what is that?

这种适应之后，你就达到了一个新的基准线。

So that adaptation, then you're at a new baseline.

你现在期待的是你的新常态。

You're you're expecting now your new normal.

我现在期待的是一个人在家搞园艺，谁也不见。

I'm I'm expecting to have a gardening day at home alone, not see anyone.

然后有一大群人过来。

And then and then bunch of people come over.

感觉像是过剩了。

It feels like a surplus.

所以，我以前认为最理想的社交恢复状态，现在却感觉成了过剩、超载、过度刺激。

So my previous optimum, you know, reintroduction to the social group, is now feeling like a surplus, an overload, overstimulated.

我认为，很多人在经历疫情初期和疫情结束后都感受到了这种剧烈的反差。

And that's, I think, something that a lot of people experience, this whiplash of going into the the pandemic and coming out of it.

不同的人经历的程度不同。

Different people to different levels.

这取决于你在疫情期间隔离了多少。

It depends on how much you, you know, isolated while you were in the pandemic.

但对我来说，把社交阈值看作是灵活且动态的，这是一个全新的概念。

But I think thinking about your social set point as being flexible and dynamic was a new concept to me.

然后我心里就产生了一个问题：这个过程中，究竟是哪个部分导致了这些有害的健康后果，比如寿命缩短、情绪障碍等等？

And then in my mind, the question is, what is the part of this process that is causing all these harmful health consequences, like shortened lifespan, mood disorders, etcetera?

是最初察觉到我遗漏了什么，从而激活了效应系统吗？

Is it the initial detection that I'm missing something and effector system activation?

如果是这样的话，也许我想用临时措施来应对。

Because if that was the case, maybe I wanna Band Aid that.

你知道，也许我想养只宠物，或者找个Zoom伙伴。

You know, maybe I wanna get get a pet, get a get a get a Zoom buddy.

我不确定。

I don't know.

如果真是这种情况，你给人们的建议和处方会完全不同；但如果问题出在设定点的适应上，你给出的建议几乎会恰恰相反。

What you know, you would have different prescriptions and advice to give people if that were the case versus you would give almost opposite advice if the thing that's causing it is the the set point adaptation.

如果是适应问题，你希望延缓它；而如果是想加速适应设定点，你又会希望加快它。

Then you wanna you wanna stave it versus if you wanted to accelerate getting into the set point.

哪种更好呢？

Which is better?

你知道，是适应本身的问题，还是说试图去修复它？

You know, is it the adaptation, or is it, you know, kind of trying to fix it?

所以在一种情况下，你希望放缓设定点的转变过程。

And so in one case, you would wanna ease off the the having the set point happen, the set point transition happen.

而在另一种情况下，则像撕创可贴一样干脆利落，直接调整，然后你就没事了。

And the other case, rip it off like a band aid cold turkey, just adjust, and then you'll be fine.

你知道吗？

You know?

那样你就不会为此担心了。

Then you won't worry about it.

那样你就不会再感到孤独，因为你已经能安然独处了。

Then you won't be lonely anymore because you'll just be comfortable being alone.

人们常谈论认知灵活性，我觉得这有点类似，但这是社交灵活性。

You know, people talk about cognitive flexibility, and I think it's it's sort of like that, but it's social flexibility.

我希望自己能够享受独处。

I want to be able to be alone.

我也希望能够在大型群体中感到自在。

I also wanna be able to be in a large group and be comfortable.

所以我认为，我为了适应这些新见解而对生活方式做出的改变，就是有意识地创造动态的社交体验。

And so I think what I've done, if anything, to change my lifestyle to accommodate these new insights I've had is is to consciously create dynamic social experiences.

有很多社交体验，是的，但我也开始保护独处的时间，这以前我从没做过。

Lots of social experiences, yes, but also protecting alone time, which I never did before.

我只是把一切都放弃了。

I just I just just gave it all away.

我知道，拥有独处的时间让我的社交稳态系统感觉更有弹性、更灵活、更坚韧，即使遇到什么情况，也不会像危机一样——我非常享受独处。

And, you know, I realized that having that just made my social homeostatic system feel more elastic and flexible and resilient and less like a crisis if something you know, I'm I'm very comfortable being alone.

我现在对自己非常自在。

I'm super comfortable with my own skin now.

这需要投入精力去经营这段关系。

And it requires investing in that relationship.

我喜欢你之前提出的说法。

I like how you framed earlier.

我想我们当时还没开始录音，但你把与自己的关系视为一种非常重要的关系，这一点我很认同。

I I think we were not not recording yet, but the relationship with yourself as being a very important relationship.

当我思考大脑状态时，你知道，我们目前还不清楚，但我的初步模型是，不同个体代表了他们的自我身份。

And when I think about brain states, you know, we don't know this yet, but my working model would be that different individuals represent their identities.

每当这些人出现时，就会形成一个由在场者组合而成的独特整体。

And whenever they're present, it creates a unique ensemble of that combination of people being present.

独处也是一种独特状态，无法通过其他方式实现。

And being alone is also a unique state that cannot be achieved.

我拥有独处时的大脑状态。

I have the brain state of being alone.

如果身边有其他人，我就无法进入这种状态。

I cannot achieve it if anyone else is around.

这其实就是你知道的，我目前的初步模型。

And that's just what you know, that's kind of the working model I have.

我认为你所说的对人们来说至关重要，因为孤独带来的痛苦是合情合理的。

I think what you're saying is essential for people to hear, because it makes sense that loneliness would hurt.

有些人更外向，这很合理——外向被定义为从社交互动中获得能量，并通过社交互动恢复精力，而内向则恰恰相反；顺便说一句，像我这样的内向者其实也享受社交互动。

It makes sense that some people are more extroverted, which I think is defined as getting energy from social interactions and resetting energy through social interactions as opposed to introverted, which by the way, folks introverts like myself do enjoy social interaction.

只是我们通过更多独处或一对一的时间来恢复，而不是在大型群体中。

It's just that we reset through more solo or one on one time than we do in larger groups.

这是我对接纳内向与外向文献的理解。

That's my understanding of the introversion, extroversion literature.

我们可以回头再讨论这一点。

We can revisit that.

但这种社会稳态的概念我认为至关重要，重要到我们可能需要反复重新定义或重述它，直到足够清晰为止。

But this notion of social homeostasis is I think so key, important enough that I think we probably want to redefine it as many times or restate it rather as many times as is necessary.

因为我相信你所描述的，和人们在饮食上所经历的是同一种情况。

Because I believe what you're describing is the same thing that one would experience with food.

如果我们每天摄入3500卡路里，然后突然只能获得每天1800卡路里。

If we eat a lot, we're consuming, I don't 3,500 calories a day, and then suddenly we only have access to 1,800 calories a day.

这会让人感觉是一种匮乏，而事实也确实如此。

There's, it feels like a deficit because indeed it is.

但经过一段时间每天摄入1800卡路里后，每天2200卡路里就会让人感觉相对充裕，相对充裕。

Whereas after some period of time at 1,800 calories a day, 2,200 calories a day feels like relative abundance, relative abundance.

疫情爆发时，我当然对世界现状感到不安。

When the pandemic hit, I certainly was unhappy about the state of affairs in the world, of course.

但我记得当时心想：天啊，我终于不用每天花九十分钟往返斯坦福了，因为那时我住在东湾。

But I recall feeling like, oh my goodness, I finally don't have to commute ninety minutes in each direction to Stanford because I lived in the East Bay at that time.

我感觉自己有了时间去做一些很久没做的事情。

I felt like I had time to do things I hadn't done in a long time.

多亏了Zoom，我得以完成某些事情，但不是所有事情。

And thanks to Zoom, I was able to get certain things done, not others.

大约六到八个月后，当我意识到这种情况会持续很久时，我感到非常孤独，并努力去修复这种状态。

Then after about six to eight months, when I realized that this is going to carry on for a while, I remember feeling quite lonely and making some efforts to repair that.

我认为社交媒体——我不是要反复批评它——在社会稳态的语境下，可能起到两种作用中的任意一种，但我也不确定是哪一种。

I think social media, not to harp on social media, could do either one of two things, and I don't know which in the context of social homeostasis.

要么是在Instagram上看到很多熟悉的面孔、评论和账号，让我感觉获得了某种社交互动，这样当我关闭应用、回到书桌前工作时（如今这些工作大多是独自完成的），我会觉得自己已经有过社交互动了。

Either going on Instagram and seeing a lot of familiar faces and comments and accounts could make me feel like I'm getting some social interaction such that then when I close that app and move to my work at my desk or something, which these days is mostly done solo, that I would feel like I had social interaction.

或者，它可能就像卡路里一样，反而让我在不使用应用时感到更加孤立。

Or perhaps it's the equivalent of calories that then makes me feel more isolated when I'm not in the app.

也许吧。

Perhaps.

我发现这与昨晚和一位我很熟悉的人共进晚餐的经历截然不同——我们坐下来进行了一场开放式的对话，直到意识到明天还得上班，才各自回家。

I find it to be distinctly different than, like, the experience I had last night of going to dinner with someone I know quite well, sitting down and having a open ended conversation, and deciding to close out the night only when we realized, you know, we gotta get up tomorrow for work, so went our separate ways.

那种感觉非常满足。

There's something that felt very sating about it.

所以在社会稳态的背景下，我把社交互动比作热量摄入，但是否还有另一个维度——不仅关乎社交互动的总量，更关乎其质量与类型？那种真正能带来滋养感的社交，而非仅仅是‘热量’？

So I wonder in this context of social homeostasis, whether or not the analogy of social interaction to caloric intake, we could is there another dimension to it where it's not just the total number of calories or the total amount of social interaction, but the quality of social interaction, the type of social interaction that actually feels like nourishment as opposed to just calories?

我喜欢你这个思路。

I love where you're going with this.

当我们第一次撰写这篇综述时，我们在思考这样一个概念：你的社交设定点会因急性孤立或慢性孤立而发生变化。

And and so when we wrote this review the first time, we're, you know, we're we're conceptualing this idea of of how your social set point can change based on if if you're acutely isolated or or chronically isolated.

纵轴是检测到的社交接触的质量与数量，这非常模糊。

And the y axis is the quality slash quantity of detected social contact, which is so fuzzy.

而且，这再次成为该领域最具挑战性的前沿之一，因为即使我们测量了大脑能感知的社交接触的每一个组成部分，其中很大一部分仍关乎预期。

And, you know, there's it's it's, again, one of the most challenging frontiers of this field because how even if we measured every single component that the brain can detect of the social the social contact, so much of it is about expectation.

你知道吗？

You know?

比如，如果我觉得我得到了一个示意，如果总统朝我点头，我会想，天啊。

Like, if I think I got a gesture, if if I get a nod from the president, I'm like, oh my god.

总统刚刚朝我点头了吗？

Did the president just nod at me?

这太令人兴奋了。

That's so exciting.

但如果是我的伴侣朝我点头，我会想，天啊。

Versus if I get a nod from my partner, I'm like, oh my god.

他们生我气了吗？

Are they mad at me?

发生什么事了？

What's going on?

为什么我刚刚得到了一个点头？

Why why did I just get a nod?

对吧？

Right?

这真的很重要。

It totally matters.

这个手势，你需要知道身份。

The gesture, you would need the identity.

有很多不同的认知系统需要协同作用，才能让这个机制运转起来。

There's many different cognitive systems that need to all plug in to this wheel to make it spin.

所以我认为，这将是让我们忙上一阵子的事情之一。

So I think that that is one of the the I I think that's gonna keep us busy for a while.

但关于你提到的社交媒体问题，当你从获取社交媒体反馈转向工作时，我认为这真的因人而异。

But in terms of your question about social media and when you switch from, you know, getting social media feedback and then doing work, I think I think it really depends.

我的意思是，社交媒体是一个非常宽泛的类别。

I mean, social media is such a large category.

你可能会有各种不同的反应。

You can have many different types of responses.

一般来说，我认为界限在于，当你说到社交媒体和现实生活中与人互动的区别时，你可能在接触对方，也可能没有接触。

Generally, I think the bounds so, you know, when you say social media versus a real life interaction where you're with someone, maybe you're touching, maybe you're not touching.

但即使只是在交谈，你也会产生脑间同步。

But even if you're just having conversation, you have interbrain synchrony.

你会有大量的脑间同步。

You are having a lot of interbrain synchrony.

你们身处同一个地方。

You're in the same place.

但即使在电话里，你也能产生脑间同步。

If if but you can have interbrain synchrony even on the phone.

对吧？

Right?

仅仅一个语音通话，其脑间同步程度其实远高于文字信息。

Just a voice call is actually a lot more interbrain synchrony than than messages.

我认为文字信息会带来很多焦虑，这方面已经有很多讨论了。

I think I think text messages can bring a lot of anxiety, and there's been a lot of commentary about that.

社交媒体也是同样的情况。

And same thing with with with social media.

我认为社交媒体最有害、最负面的地方在于，当我思考社交滋养时——虽然我这里临时造了这个词——它几乎像是一种 Withdrawal（ Withdrawal）。

I think the the thing about social media that is perhaps the most harmful or net negative, I think, in terms of I when I'm thinking about social nourishment, if I you know, sort of making that term up on the fly here, but it's it's almost a withdrawal.

当社交媒体发布内容时，它并不是发给你的。

When social media is posted, it's not to you.

它是发给所有人的。

It's to everyone.

你可能是收到这条信息的人之一，但它根本就不是发给你的。

And you could be one of the people that receives this message, but it's not even to you.

我根本不是在跟你说话。

I'm not even talking to you.

我正在做一件没有你的事。

And I'm doing something that's without you.

否则，你就会出现在这张照片里，而不是在社交媒体上刷着、听着什么。

Otherwise, you'd in this picture and not reading on social media listening to whatever.

所以，你几乎只在发布那些你被排除在外的活动，而且除非对方直接给你发私信，否则根本不是在跟你说话。

So it's like by almost exclusively, you're you're posting about activities that you're being excluded from and someone's not even really talking to you unless they're d that that, you know, direct messaging you.

但如果是一对一的沟通，我会觉得这是另一种情况。

But then I call I kind of consider that different category if it's like a one to one communication.

对我来说，社交媒体就像一场狂欢。

Social media to me is is a blast.

对吧？

Right?

在社交媒体上跟人保持联系，这根本不是真正的联系。

It's not it's just, you know, catching up with someone on social media.

我看不出这有什么意义，因为我反正迟早会当面跟他们聊的。

I I don't really see the merit of it because I'll just catch up with them when I catch up with them.

等我真见到他们时，他们的孩子都长得大得多，但说实话，我也说不准。

And their kids will just be like way older, but, you know, I don't know.

我宁愿真正地跟他们聊聊，而不是光看一些不知道什么的照片。

I'll actually really catch up with them than just see pictures of know, I don't know.

我对它感觉很矛盾，因为这并不是真正的联系。

I I feel mixed about it because it's not a real connection.

对我来说，浏览别人在社交媒体上的个人资料并不能满足我的社交需求。

And it doesn't for me sate my social appetite to catch up with to to look at someone else's profile on on social media.

这实际上对建立联系没有任何帮助。

That doesn't actually do anything for the the connection.

我不知道，但我 seriously 怀疑当我关注别人关于度假的动态时，会释放大量的催产素。

I I don't know, but I seriously doubt tons of oxytocin is released when I, you know, follow someone's feed about their vacation.

所以我也说不准。

So I don't know.

我认为质量确实很重要。

I would I think that it definitely matters the quality.

社交媒体与现实生活中的互动在很多方面都不同。

And social media is is different than real life interactions for many reasons.

我很欣赏你愿意在这个情境下深入探讨。

I really appreciate your willingness to explore in this in this context.

我认为你提到的现实生活中互动涉及大脑同步，这一点可以通过文字、电话、FaceTime或类似的视频聊天来扩展。

I think your mention of the fact that real life interaction involves interbrain synchrony, could be by text, scaling up from that by phone, FaceTime, or something akin to that, video chat.

在社交媒体上，虽然有评论来回互动，但这很耗时，而且因为匿名性而变得困难。

On social media, there is comments back and forth, although that's time consuming and it's difficult because there's anonymity.

人们身处不同的地方，不同的时区。

People are in different places, different time zones.

如果你不认识某人，情境就不同了。

If you don't know someone, it's different context.

所以，多亏了你的描述，我开始真正思考社交媒体与面对面社交互动、电话或视频聊天社交互动之间的巨大差异，以及它们如何对社交稳态产生不同的影响。

So I'm really, thanks to what you're describing, I'm really starting to think about social media as so different than in person social interactions or by phone or video chat social interactions, and how those would differentially impact social homeostasis.

这至少让我得出结论：对我而言，大多数社交媒体互动会加剧渴望。

And it's leading me at least to conclude that at least for me that most social media interactions would create more hunger

是的。

Mhmm.

而不是满足社交互动的需求。

As opposed to a seeding of the need for social interaction.

我在这里必须谨慎使用类比，但既然我能这么说，我几乎想把色情内容与面对面的性亲密做类比。

I have to be careful with the analogies here, but since I can do this, I was almost gonna make an analogy between pornography, in person sexual intimacy.

我想中间存在某种中间状态，比如人们通过电话交流，但我们不希望以任何低俗的方式探讨这一点。

I suppose there's something in between where people could talk by phone, we don't want to explore this in any kind of salacious way.

然后是带有情感、积极情感的性亲密。

And then sexual intimacy with emotion, with positive emotion.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

那里有一个程度上的递进。

Those there's a scaling factor there.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我并不是在做出任何评判或价值判断。

And I'm not I'm not putting judgment or valence.

嗯嗯。

Uh-huh.

我当然不是。

I'm I'm certainly not.

这不是我的职责。

That's not my place.

正如我一位好朋友说的，我不是警察。

As a good friend of mine says, I'm not a cop.

你知道的。

You know?

我不是在告诉人们哪些事不能做。

I'm not telling people what to do they can't do.

但想想我们内心那些创造出所谓趋近性（渴望）或回避性（想要远离）反应的神经回路，这非常有趣，这些正是你我在本领域所称的。

But it's so interesting to think about these circuits within us that create these, what you and I in our field call appetitive, the desire for or aversive, the desire to move away from type responses.

而如今，除了你之外，因为你在管理自己的社交媒体和邮件摄入量，但生活中大部分时候都在提供机会，去轻轻刺激这些回路，甚至用大锤狠狠击打它们。

And how so much of our life, aside from you because you're regulating your social media and your and your email intake, but so much of life now is offering us the opportunity to tickle these circuits or even hit them hard with a sledgehammer.

但我们并没有思考这些稳态机制，它们究竟是加剧了渴望还是带来了满足。

But we're not thinking about these homeostatic mechanisms of whether or not they're creating more hunger for or more satisfaction from.

是的。

Yeah.

我再怎么强调这一点的重要性都不为过。

And I I I cannot emphasize enough how critical this is.

我想这是因为，你知道，我本人确实花了不少时间在社交媒体上。

And I think it's because, know, I'm somebody who does spend a fair amount of time on social media.

我的很多工作都存在于社交媒体、YouTube等平台上。

A lot of my my work exists on social media, YouTube, etcetera.

我希望我们通过这个播客向世界传递的内容能带来满足感或对信息的渴求，而不是加剧对更多内容的欲望。

And I would hope that the work that we're putting into the world with this podcast is creating a satiation or the desire for information rather than a hunger for more.

我确实希望如此，但我意识到，社交媒体上的教育内容只占了其中极其微小的一部分。

I do hope that, but I recognize that educational material on social media represents the tiny, tiny fraction of what's there.

所以，社交稳态这个概念，如果人们还没有深深印在脑海里，现在就应该刻进去。

So social homeostasis, I think is a term that if people haven't already stamped into their mind, they should be stamping into their mind.