营养与健身工具 | 莱恩·诺顿博士

丁酸，所以我做了一个帖子，说‘为什么你应该吃粪便来减脂’。

Butyrate and so I I did this post where I'm like, here's why you should eat poop to lose fat.

丁酸能增加脂肪氧化。

Butyrate increases fat oxidation.

我认为它能激活棕色脂肪，提高胰岛素敏感性，减少炎症。

I think it activates brown fat, increases insulin sensitivity, decreases inflammation.

研究表明，它确实能改善肥胖的发展，所以我收集了所有这些PubMed上的研究数据。

It's been shown to actually ameliorate, the development of obesity in the in studies, and I so I had all these PubMed ideas.

但我没告诉人们的是，这些研究大多是在啮齿动物身上进行的。

Now what I did didn't tell people was those are all mostly in rodents.

对吧？

Right?

而且要达到所需的丁酸剂量，你每天得吃大约50到100磅的粪便。

And it's giving an amount of butyrate that you'd need to eat about 50 to a 100 pounds of fecal matter a day in order to get.

对吧？

Right?

这想法越想越糟糕。

It sounded like a worse and worse idea by the moment.

但这和现在大量存在的内容非常相似：找出某种孤立化合物，吓唬人们，或吹捧它为最棒的东西，然后将其与某种结果联系起来。

But that is very similar to a lot of the content that is out there, which is find isolated compound, scare people, or promote it to be the best thing ever, and then link it to an outcome.

有时你还可以结合流行病学数据来支持你想要的任何说法。

And then sometimes you can tie an epidemiology with it as well to support whatever you want.

但再次强调，我并不是说我在训练和营养方面的做法都没有随机对照试验的支持。

But, again, like, I'm not saying I do things in my training and my nutrition that don't have randomized control trials to support.

对吧？

Right?

它们其实根本没有证据支持。

They don't really have anything to support.

这只是我逐渐养成的做法而已。

It's just it's how I've how I've kinda fallen into doing things.

所以这也没关系。

So that's okay.

但我不会跑出来宣称我做的就是最好的，这就是原因，尤其是当有相反的人类随机对照试验时。

But what I wouldn't do is come out and say, what I do is the best thing ever, and here's why, especially if there was human randomized control trials to the counter.

这才是最重要的事。

That is the biggest thing.

对吧？

Right?

如果我们有人类随机对照试验，而它们的结果与个案研究或观察结果相反，那就有原因了——我之所以一直强调它们，正是因为它们被视为证据的黄金标准。

If we have human randomized control trials and they're going the opposite direction of a case study or an observation, there's a reason human randomized control trials, I scream about them all the time, and why they're considered the gold standard of evidence.

当我们看队列数据时，你只是在观察人们。

When we look at cohort data, you're just observing people.

那里

There's

没有干预。

no intervention.

也许解释一下什么是队列数据。

Maybe explain what cohort data are.

好的。

Okay.

这是在比较两组人群吗？

Is it comparing two groups?

是的。

Sure.

所以队列数据是对比不同群体，但你并没有进行干预。

So cohort data, you're comparing groups, but you're you're not having an intervention.

你只是在一段时间内追踪他们。

So you're tracking them over the course of however what period of time.

很多队列研究都关注心血管疾病、癌症等。

A of lot cohort studies like looking at cardiovascular disease, cancer.

这些人决定成为素食者。

These people decided to be vegan.

这些人决定成为，比如说，杂食者。

These people decided to be, let's just say, omnivores.

是的

Yeah.

这些是一些经典的实验。

Those are some of the classic experiments.

对吧？

Right?

他们并没有被分配到这个实验中。

There was they weren't assigned to this experiment.

他们自愿参与了这个实验。

They agreed to join the experiment.

他们已经这样饮食一段时间了。

They've been eating this way for a while.

对。

Right.

你向他们提了一堆问题。

You ask them a bunch of questions.

然后你观察一下，在十多年、二十多年的时间里，谁更常或更少出现某种情况。

And you look at, okay, over 10, over twenty years, who gets whatever more often or less often.

对吧？

Right?

然后我们试图分析并计算一下，这种影响是什么，是否真实存在？

And then we try to figure out and about calculate, okay, what's the effect, and is this real?

问题是，这类研究存在很多偏差。

The problem is you're you have a lot of bias with those sorts of studies.

意思是，人们并不会只养成单一的习惯。

Meaning, people don't do single habits.

他们不会把习惯孤立开来。

They don't isolate habits.

前几天我在史蒂文·巴特利特播客上的亮相中，我提出了一个规则：如果我想改善饮食，我就去健身房。

I was I actually put up a rule the other day from my appearance on Steven Bartlett's podcast where he said, if I wanna fix my diet, I go to the gym.

因为很多人都是这样做的。

Because a lot of people do that.

如果他们去健身房锻炼，就不愿意因为饮食不佳而浪费自己的努力。

If they're training in the gym, they don't wanna waste their effort by having a subpar diet.

实际上，如果你不去健身房，健康饮食就更重要。

Now in reality, eating a healthy diet is more important if you're not going to the gym.

对吧？

Right?

因为至少你还在做点什么，但人们总是把习惯捆绑在一起。

Because at least you're getting something, but people do this habit coupling.

所以很难把这些因素分开来看。

And so it's really hard to disentangle those sorts of things.

人类随机对照试验之所以重要，是因为在设计实验时，如果你通过随机分配受试者到不同组别来控制变量，就能消除这种偏差——你可以假设那些可能与你要研究的因素相关的固有特征，会均匀地分布在各组中。

Now the reason that human randomized control trials are important is if you're designing an experiment and you randomize what you are doing by randomly assigning people to groups, you're washing out that bias because you can assume that whatever inherent characteristics that might be coupled to whatever you're gonna try are gonna be randomly distributed, evenly distributed across the groups.

因此，我们说人类随机对照试验是确立因果关系所必需的，因为通过随机化，你可以假设组间观察到的任何差异都是由你的干预引起的，而不是由随机性或数据伪影造成的。

Therefore, we say human randomized control trials are kind of what's needed to establish causation because by randomizing, you can assume whatever differences are observed between the groups are due to your treatment and not due to random chance or data artifacts.

然而，随机对照试验，尤其是在营养学领域，存在很强的局限性，因为你不可能进行一项持续三十年的随机对照试验。

Now randomized controlled trials, especially in nutrition, have very strong limitations, which is you you can't do a randomized controlled trial for thirty years.

你不可能做到啊，我的意思是，我听说过的最长的营养学随机对照试验也就两年左右。

You can't I mean, I think the longest randomized controlled trial I heard about nutrition is, like, two years long.

对吧？

Right?

即便如此，它也不会是一个高度控制的随机对照试验。

And even then, it's not gonna be a very tightly controlled randomized control trial.

我的意思是，如果你追求最严格的控制，比如代谢病房研究，可能也就四到六周，因为你把人关在‘食物监狱’里。

I mean, and if you're doing if you're talking about, the tightest level of control, like a metabolic ward study, four, six weeks, maybe, because you're keeping people in food jail.

我认为一些误解来源于人们以为有一大群人正等着被选入实验。

And I think where some of this confusion comes from is I think people think that there's just like this pool of people waiting around to be selected for experiments.

是的。

Like, yes.

我准备好了。

I'm ready.

我在这儿等很久了。

I've been waiting here.

不。

No.

有像你、像我、像街上普通路人这样的人，他们看到一张传单，就想：好吧。

There are people like you, like me, like just the average person walking down the street who saw a flyer and goes, okay.

我愿意参加这个。

I'll volunteer for that.

你对他们的生活控制得越严，他们就越不愿意参与，而且你可能还得付钱给他们。

And the more control you try to establish over their lives, the less likely they are to do it, and you probably gotta pay them.

你知道的。

You know?

我不认识谁会不拿报酬就去参加代谢病房研究。

I don't know anybody who would do a metabolic ward study without getting paid for it.

我的意思是，你基本上是放弃了四到六周的人生去干这事。

I mean, you're basically giving up four, six weeks of your life to go do that.

所以，虽然我非常喜欢人体随机对照试验，但有些情况下，它们并不总是合适的。

And so while I love human randomized control trials, for some things, they're not always appropriate.

例如，如果你想研究心脏病，想进行一项为期一年的人类随机对照试验，观察饱和脂肪、低密度脂蛋白胆固醇之类的因素。

For example, if you're trying to look at heart disease and you wanna do a one year human randomized control trial, looking at say, you know, saturated fat LDL cholesterol, those sorts of things.

那么，60岁以后的人在一年内发生心脏病发作的有多少呢？

Well, how many people have heart attacks within one year after age 60?

我的意思是，你得在极小的数字之间寻找极微小的差异。

I mean, it's gonna be a really you're gonna look for really small differences between really small numbers.

对吧？

Right?

而这个问题在于，你根本不知道他们在发病前四十年的饮食情况。

And the problem with that is you have no idea about their diet forty years leading up to that.

根据如今的孟德尔随机化试验，我们知道低密度脂蛋白的风险更像是一种终身暴露风险。

And we know based on now the Mendelian randomization trials that the risk of LDL is more of like a lifetime exposure risk.

它并不是仅仅局限于这短短的一段时间。

It's not just in this narrow sliver of time.

所以我喜欢人类随机对照试验，但我也试图告诉人们：永远不要关闭你的大脑。

And so I love human randomized control trials, but it's also I try to tell people, never turn your brain off.

某项研究只是发表在某个期刊上，或者某个研究者说了什么，或者研究设计如此，并不意味着它就是无懈可击的。

Just because something gets published in a certain journal, just because a certain researcher said something, just because, it was a certain design, it doesn't make it infallible.

明白吗？

Okay?

科学是完美的。

Science is perfect.

科学是完美的。

Science is perfect.

科学是事物本来的样子，但它是由人类完成的。

Science is what is, but it's done by humans.

而人类是有缺陷的、不完美的，带着自己的个人信念和偏见，所以我首先关注数据的共识，因为确实有可能某些实验被伪造了，或者存在某些问题，但当我们以肌酸一水合物为例时，

And humans are fallible, imperfect people with their own personal beliefs and biases, and that's why I look at consensus of data first because, yeah, you could maybe some experiments got faked or maybe they had but when it's done over let's take something like creatine monohydrate.

对吧？

Right?

几十年来，成千上万的实验在数百个不同的实验室、多种资金来源、不同国家、各种条件下进行。

You have thousands of experiments done over decades of time in hundreds of different labs with many different funding sources in bunch of different countries under a bunch of different conditions.

它有效。

It works.

对吧？

Right?

比如，如果你去查共识，输入‘肌酸能增肌吗？’

Like, if you go to consensus and you type in, does creatine build muscle?

大约有92%。

It's like ninety 2%

是的。

yes.

没错。

Right.

这太惊人了。

Which is crazy.

没错。

Right.

每天摄入5到10克肌酸一水合物，有助于增强力量和肌肉质量，并在一定程度上提升认知功能。

Consuming five to ten grams of creatine monohydrate per day is going to benefit strength and muscle mass and likely cognition to some extent.

哦，是的，没错。

Oh, yeah, yeah.

我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor AG1.

到目前为止，你们可能已经听过我说过，如果只能选一种补充剂，那一定是AG1。

By now, of you have heard me say that if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.

原因在于，AG1是目前市面上质量最高、成分最全面的基础营养补充剂。

The reason for that is AG1 is the highest quality and most complete of the foundational nutritional supplements available.

这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还包含益生菌、益生元和适应原，能够弥补你饮食中的任何不足，并为高强度的生活提供支持。

What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps you may have in your diet and provide support for a demanding life.

即使我大部分饮食都以全食物和低加工食品为主，但要单靠食物获取足够的水果、蔬菜、维生素、矿物质、微量营养素和适应原，仍然非常困难。

For me, even if I eat mostly whole foods and minimally processed foods, which I do for most of my food intake, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits and vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone.

因此，自2012年以来，我每天都会服用AG1，经常一天两次，一次在早上或上午，另一次在下午或晚上。

For that reason, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012 and often twice a day, once in the morning or mid morning, and again in the afternoon or evening.

当我这样做时，它明显增强了我的能量、免疫系统和肠道微生物组。

When I do that, it clearly bolsters my energy, my immune system, and my gut microbiome.

这些都对大脑功能、情绪、体能表现等至关重要。

These are all critical to brain function, mood, physical performance, and much more.

如果你想尝试AG1，可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman来领取他们的特别优惠。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim their special offer.

目前，他们免费赠送五份旅行装，外加一年份的维生素D3K2。

Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2.

再次提醒，访问drinkag1.com/huberman来领取这个特别优惠。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer.

我意识到我刚才说了一大堆话。

I realize I've been on a long diatribe.

不，不用。

No, no.

这甚至都不能算是一大堆话。

This is I wouldn't even call it a diatribe.

我认为对于正在收听的听众来说，这简直是金玉良言，因为以前绝对没有人在本播客或其他播客中如此清晰地阐述过如何辨别证据质量的差异。

I think for those listening, this is pure gold because never before, certainly on this podcast or other podcasts, has anyone ever really spelled out how to discern differences in quality of evidence?

对。

Right.

而且现在大部分地方都是自由世界，人们可以做自己想做的事，但我认为他们需要明确自己对质量的底线在哪里。

And every it's mostly a free world, most places, And people can do what they want, but I think they need to decide what their thresholds are for quality.

没错。

Yep.

我觉得我还想告诉人们另一件事，我前几天看到了。

And I think the one other thing I'll tell people is I saw this the other day.

我看到有人发了一条帖子。

I saw somebody post.

我想那是在我一条帖子下的评论。

I think it was a comment on one of my posts.

我实际上还回复了。

I actually commented back.

他们说，你知道的，我就知道可以信任你，你说什么我都信。

They said, you know, I just I know I can trust you, and I just whatever you say, I know it.

我可以把它当作铁板钉钉的事实。

I can take it to the bank.

我说，我很感激，但我也是个和别人一样有缺陷的人。

And I said, I appreciate that, but I am a flawed human like anybody else.

请不要关闭你的大脑。

Please don't turn your brain off.

在我职业生涯的这个阶段，我真正努力去做的就是教人们如何思考。

Like and one of the things I've really tried to do now in this stage of my career is I wanna teach people how to think.

因为如果我只是给你信息，相当于给你一条鱼，这固然不错，但我更希望你能理解我是如何得出这些结论的。

Because if I just give you the information and I'm giving you a fish, great, but I'd rather you understand how I came to these conclusions.

你可以看到我的逻辑是如何推演的，然后你就可以将它应用到其他地方。

You can see my logic and how it tracks, and then you can start applying elsewhere.

我常对人们说，如果你想找个快速简便的方法来判断该关注谁，那就别只听人们说了什么，而是要听他们是怎么说的。

One of the things I say to people is I'm like, if you want a quick and dirty hack for knowing who to follow, try not to listen so much to exactly the information people say, but listen to how they say it.

好吗？

Okay?

我刚才跟你说过，前几天我参加了一个播客，在那里我提到了一项研究。

I was just telling you I was on a podcast the other day where I said, you know, here's this study.

我可能会把细节说错。

I might butcher the details.

如果我算错了数学，如果有专家看到后想评论或纠正我，请尽管指出。

And if I get the math wrong, if, experts out there wanna comment and correct me, please do that.

这是一种表达方式，意思是：嘿。

Like, that is a way of talking about something where you're saying, hey.

我可能弄错了，或者：嘿。

I could get this wrong, or, hey.

我可能不确定。

I might be uncertain.

这和说‘真正的专家从不使用绝对化的词，比如最好、最差、总是、从不’是完全不同的。

That's very different than saying, you know, just hard, pure you know, real experts don't really talk like best, worst, always, never.

他们其实不会用那样的词。

Like, they don't really use words like that.

而且

And

一

one

我常对人说的一个最爱的短语，其实是来自经济学家托马斯·索维尔。

of my favorite phrases that I tell people, it's actually from an economist named Thomas Sowell.

他说，没有所谓的解决方案。

He said, there are no solutions.

只有权衡取舍。

There are only trade offs.

比如，有数据显示，如果你减少饱和脂肪的摄入，可能会降低你的睾酮水平。

And for for example, you know, there's data out there that if you lower saturated fat, it may lower your testosterone.

但也有数据显示，饱和脂肪会提高低密度脂蛋白（LDL），而这是心血管疾病的一个独立风险因素。

But there's also data out there that saturated fat raises LDL, which is an independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，那里确实有取舍。

Well, there's trade offs there.

对吧？

Right?

比如，你更看重什么？

Like, what do you value more?

我会说，对于大多数人来说，睾酮水平的下降在生理上其实并不重要。

I would argue that probably the decline in testosterone isn't really physiologically meaningful for most people.

但再说一遍，没有绝对的好坏。

But, again, there's there's not a good or bad.

只有取舍。

There's trade offs.

我觉得当人们谈论生化通路时，我特别想强调的一点是：嘿。

And I think when people get talking about biochemical pathways, one of the things I I really try to hone in on is like, hey.

其实也没有什么好或坏的生化通路。

There's not not really good or bad biochemical pathways either.

这些机制之所以存在，都有其原因。

Like, all these things exist for a reason.

比如，现在很流行的一个话题就是炎症。

Like, people like, one of the things popular is like, well, inflammation.

炎症。

Inflammation.

听我说。

Like, hey.

你知道吗，炎症其实也有些我们非常需要的功能。

You know, like, inflammation does some things that we really need too.

你只是不希望完全没有炎症。

Like, you just don't want, like, no inflammation.

它实际上是一个重要的生理过程。

Like, it's actually important physiological process.

对吧？

Right?

当然，你也不希望它失控。

Now you don't want it to run away for sure.

所以，再次强调，我要特别感谢我的博士导师，他总是说：‘你知道你所知道的，但永远要质疑一切，甚至那些你认为最根本正确的观点，因为这才是优秀科学家的职责。’

And so, again, I I just give my PhD adviser a lot of credit of he's like, know what you know, but always question everything, even the things we feel most fundamentally are true because that is the job of a good scientist.

我再给你讲一个故事，然后我们转到下一个话题。

I'll give you one more story, and then we'll move to another thing.

当我做第一个实验的时候，呃，抱歉。

When I did my first experiment well, actually sorry.

不。

No.

这其实是我第十五次实验了，因为前十四次都失败了。

This has been, like, my fifteenth experiment because my first 14 blew It didn't work.

典型的研究生生涯。

A typical graduate career.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

他是个非常有耐心、非常支持人的人。

It's and, again, very patient man, very supportive.

我真心觉得怎么称赞他都不为过。

I I I honestly cannot give him enough credit.

如果你看看那个实验室出来的人，很多都是佼佼者。

And if you look at the the people that came out of that lab, a lot of studs.

我做了一个实验，研究乳清蛋白——抱歉，是含有乳清蛋白的完整餐食，以及肌肉蛋白合成持续了多长时间。

So I I did a, an experiment looking at whey protein or sorry, complete meal with whey protein ingestion and how long the duration of muscle protein synthesis was.

因为大多数人通常只在60或90分钟时测量，也就是餐后蛋白质合成的瞬时快照，寻找峰值，而我们想的是：这真的是峰值吗？

Because we most people kinda measured at sixty or ninety minutes, like the the snapshot postprandially for protein synthesis looking for a peak, and we're like, is that really where the peak is?

我们并不确定。

We don't know.

我们这是基于一种纯化溶液进行的。

We're we're basing this off of a purified solution.

那我们来做个持续时间实验吧。

So let's do a duration experiment.

对吧？

Right?

我的假设是，亮氨酸在血液中维持多高，蛋白质合成就会持续多久。

And my hypothesis was, well, however long leucine is elevated in the blood is gonna be how long protein synthesis stays up.

当我们拿到蛋白质合成的数据时，发现蛋白质合成上升了，在九十分钟时达到峰值，到了三小时就回落到了基线水平。

And when we got the data back on protein synthesis, protein synthesis had come up, peaked at ninety minutes, and by three hours, it'd come back down to baseline.

我跑去检测血浆氨基酸，心想：好吧。

And I went to run the plasma amino acids, and I'm like, okay.

这应该就是我们会看到的结果。

Well, this is what we're gonna see.

但实际情况并不是这样。

And that's not what we saw.

所以，血浆中的氨基酸不仅仍然处于升高状态，而且在三小时时已经达到峰值或趋于平稳，而此时蛋白质合成已经回到基线水平。

So plasma amino acids not only were still elevated, they were, like, maxed out or plateaued at the highest they would level they would be at three hours where protein synthesis was back to baseline.

于是我心想，好吧。

And so I said, okay.

那一定是mTOR信号通路在起作用。

Well, it's gotta be mTOR signaling.

mTOR信号通路一定是在关闭，或者发生了什么变化。

MTOR signaling's gotta be turning off or something's happening.

并不是这样。

Nope.

mTOR信号通路仍然处于升高状态。

MTOR signaling was still elevated.

对吧？

Right?

我们通过磷酸化结合蛋白40BP1观察到了这一点，这是mTOR激活的间接指标。

And we saw this through phosphorylation of the binding protein 40 b p one, which is a proxy for mTOR activation.

然后我说，好吧。

And then I said, okay.

也许亮氨酸没有进入细胞。

Well, maybe leucine isn't getting into the cell.

也许这就是原因。

Maybe that's why.

所以我们检测了细胞内亮氨酸，追踪了血浆亮氨酸的完全路径。

So we looked at intracellular leucine, followed the exact path of plasma leucine.

于是我不断重复分析血浆数据。

And so then I kept rerunning the plasma data over and over.

我可能跑了五遍。

I probably ran it five times.

对吧？

Right?

有一天，莱曼终于把我叫进办公室，问我：‘这个持续时间实验现在进展到哪儿了？’

And Lehman finally calls me into his office one day, and he goes, so where do we stand with this duration experiment?

我说，是的，差不多完成了。

And I said, yeah, it's almost done.

我只是得再跑一遍数据，因为血浆数据肯定出错了。

I just I I gotta run the data again because the plasma data's gotta be wrong.

我看到他眉毛微微一扬，然后问：你为什么这么想？

And he he I saw his, little eyebrow go up, you know, and he goes, why do you think that?

让我看看你的数据。

Let me see your data.

他说，你的标准曲线没问题。

He goes, your standard air bars are good.

这组数据看起来相当紧凑。

This looks to be relatively tight data.

你的操作手法怎么样？

How's your technique?

我正逐项回忆分析血浆氨基酸的每一个步骤。

And I'm going through, like, how I, you know, all the steps of to analyze plasma amino acids.

顺便说一句，这可不是《犯罪现场调查》。

It's not like CSI, by the way, everybody.

你不可能只是拿个移液管，把东西放进离心机，然后突然就得到数据了。

You don't just, take a pipette, put something in a centrifuge, and all of sudden you get back data.

这里面有很多步骤。

There's a there's many steps in here.

于是我向他展示了所有这些步骤，他说，听起来你是在试图让数据符合你的结论，而你应该做的是让结论去适应数据。

And so I I showed him all that, and he goes, you know, it sounds like you are trying to get the data to fit your conclusion, and what you need to do is change your conclusion to fit the data.

这句话，再次彻底改变了我的整个思维方式。

And that one line, again, it just opened my whole world up to one.

如果我错了，那就这样吧。

If I'm wrong, okay.

好的。

Cool.

我更在意的是得到正确的答案，而不是证明自己是对的。

Like, I care more about getting the right answer than being right.

这就是我们之前在聊的原因。

And that's why we were talking earlier.

我觉得有太多东西我根本不信。

I'm like, there's so much stuff that I just don't believe.

我要看到十项、二十项研究之后才会说，没错。

I wanna see ten, twenty studies before I go, yep.

你知道的。

You know?

我还会告诉别人另一件事，嘿。

And the other thing I'll tell people is, hey.

我很少会非常坚定地坚持某个立场。

I don't plant my flag real strong very often.

所以当你看到我这么做了，我不是说我没有犯错的可能，但如果你看到我这么做了，你最好留意一下，因为我通常不会这样做。

So when you see me do it, I'm not saying I'm not fallible, but if you see me do it, you probably should pay attention because I don't usually do that.

我喜欢这个说法，但现在我的好奇心被勾起来了，你得告诉我：如果摄入蛋白质90分钟后，蛋白质合成达到峰值，然后在三小时后回落到基线，但亮氨酸——这种关键的氨基酸和调控细胞生长与蛋白质合成的mTOR通路——在三小时后依然处于升高状态，那该如何解释这个矛盾？

I love that description, but now my curiosity has peaked and you gotta tell me, so if ninety minutes after ingesting protein, protein synthesis peaks, and then it drops to baseline at three hours, but leucine, one of the key amino acids and mTOR, which is in the pathway of cellular growth and protein synthesis are still elevated three hours, What is the conclusion that explains the discrepancy?

是的

Yeah.

所以我们实际上为此研究了多年。

So we actually looked for this for years.

所以有几点。

So a few things.

还有一些其他研究支持这一点。

There was some other studies that supported that.

我们称之为耐受反应。

We called it a refractory response.

实际上，我们并没有这样命名它。

Actually, we didn't name it that.

是另一个实验室给它起的名字。

There was another lab named it that.

基本上，蛋白质合成对蛋白质合成的信号变得不再敏感了。

Basically, that protein synthesis was becoming refractory to the signal for protein synthesis.

所以，为了简单快速地说明，我试着用容易理解的方式解释一下。

So just just for real quick, I'm gonna try and explain this easily.

蛋白质合成，你知道，这听起来可能很抽象，但它其实就是你的身体制造更多蛋白质的方式。

So protein synthesis, you know, this sounds like probably a very abstract thing, but it's how you make your body makes more protein.

无论是在骨骼肌、肝脏，还是其他任何部位，你都有DNA，也就是你的基因代码。

And whether it's in skeletal muscle, whether it's in the liver, whatever, you have your DNA, which is your genetic code.

对吧？

Right?

然后DNA会被转录成mRNA。

And then that gets transcribed to an mRNA.

顺便说一下，这里我省略了很多步骤，但请耐心一下。

By the way, I'm leaving out a lot of steps here, but just bear with me.

这个mRNA会被核糖体翻译成多肽链或蛋白质。

That mRNA gets translated by a ribosome into a polypeptide chain or a protein.

所以核糖体基本上是附着在mRNA上，然后根据mRNA的序列，将对应的氨基酸带进来进行匹配。

So a ribosome is basically attaching to the mRNA, and then based on the mRNA sequence is bringing in amino acids to match that sequence.

所以你体内的所有蛋白质都是由你的DNA编码的。

So all the proteins in your body are coded for in your DNA.

对吧？

Right?

在这一过程中，有一个被称为eIF4F的复合物，它作为支架，帮助核糖体结合到mRNA上。

So when it comes to this process, there's a complex called EIF four f, which acts as a scaffold for the ribosome to hook on to the mRNA.

而eIF4F的形成主要受限于两种蛋白质——eIF4E和eIF4G的结合。

And EIF four f, the formation of it, is basically rate limited by the association of two proteins called EIF four e and EIF four g.

eIF4E会被一种名为4E-BP1的结合蛋白所结合。

And EIF four e is bound by a binding protein four e b p one.

当亮氨酸刺激mTOR时，mTOR会促使4E-BP1发生磷酸化，使其无法再与eIF4E结合。

And when you stimulate when leucine stimulates mTOR, mTOR stimulates the phosphorylation of four e b p one, which makes it unavailable for binding with EIF four e.

它现在可以与eIF4G结合。

It can bind to EIF four g.

这样，eIF4F复合物就能形成，将核糖体带到mRNA上，从而开始读取。

That EIF four f complex can be made, brings the ribosome onto the mRNA, and now it can read.

它能进行翻译。

It can translate it.

所以这里有一个小

So there's a little

是的。

Yeah.

细胞生物学小课。

Cellular biology lesson.

如果人们

If people

没跟上也没关系。

didn't follow that, don't worry about it.

莱恩描述的是，蛋白质合成所需的一系列分子的存在是必要但不充分的条件。

What Lane's describing is that the presence of a bunch of molecules involved in protein synthesis is necessary but not sufficient for the protein synthesis.

对。

Right.

还需要发生其他一些事情。

A few other things have to happen.

对。

Correct.

而且，显然，在一百二十分钟后，这些其他事情就没有再发生了。

And, apparently, those other things are not happening after a hundred and twenty minutes.

所以另一个实验室称之为肌肉饱足效应。

So another lab called it the the muscle full effect.

基本上，这个观点是，一旦你启动了这个信号，它就会自行运行然后结束。

Basically, the the idea is, like, once you've initiated that signal, it kinda runs and then it's done.

对吧？

Right?

仅仅往系统中注入更多的氨基酸并不会进一步刺激它。

And just pounding more amino acids into the system is not gonna further stimulate.

事实上，早在2001年，由一位名叫伦尼的研究者——另一位非常著名的蛋白质实验室的专家——进行了一项研究。

In fact, there was a there was a study done back in, think it was 2001 by, I wanna say, by Renny, another very well known protein lab.

他们持续输注必需氨基酸六小时，并观察了骨骼肌蛋白质合成情况。

And they infused essential amino acids for six hours and looked at skeletal muscle protein synthesis.

他们发现，蛋白质合成在上升后，两小时内就回落了，之后再也没有回升。

And they found it went up and then came back down by by two hours and then never went back up.

对吧？

Right?

很棒的实验。

Good experiment.

是的。

Yeah.

非常有趣。

Very interesting.

所以我们研究了大量不同的因素。

So we looked at a bunch of different things.

我们唯一发现可能稍微解释这一现象的是，我肯定其他实验室会对我的观点提出异议，而且，再次说明，这是在大鼠骨骼肌中进行的实验，虽然这确实是研究人类蛋白质代谢的良好模型，但仍有局限。

The only thing we found that perhaps explained it a little bit, and I'm sure there's other labs that would argue with me on this, and and, again, this is in rat skeletal muscle, which, by the way, is a a good model for human protein metabolism, but still.

我们观察了细胞内ATP水平，发现它们的下降与肌肉蛋白质合成的下降基本同步，而肌肉蛋白质合成是一个依赖ATP的过程。

We looked at a intracellular ATP levels and actually found that they were declining kind of in concert with the decline in muscle protein synthesis, and muscle protein synthesis is an ATP dependent process.

但蛋白质周转这一过程是能量消耗巨大的。

But the the process of protein turnover is energetically expensive.

这也是为什么蛋白质的食物热效应更高的原因之一。

It's one of the reasons that protein has a higher thermic effect of food.

因此，我们的假设是，蛋白质刺激蛋白质合成以启动这一机制，其能量消耗可能足够高，以至于最终你会耗尽能量。

And so our hypothesis was perhaps by the effect of protein stimulating protein synthesis to start this machinery is energetically expensive enough that eventually you kinda run out of steam.

所以，虽然信号仍然存在，但它只是逐渐停止了。

And so you have the signal there, but it just kind of ends.

对吧？

Right?

现在，也有一些其他实验，比如乔丹·特罗梅林几个月前发表了一篇论文，让受试者在抗阻训练后摄入100克蛋白质，结果发现实际被利用的量远超我们原先的预期。

Now there have been other experiment like Jordan Trommelin just published a paper a few months ago that got a bunch of, you know you know, feedback of 100 grams of protein after a mute after a resistance training exercise and saw, you know, that it was basically like, lot more of it was used than we thought would be used.

对。

Right.

因为几十年来，人们一直认为、相信并传播着这样一个观点：餐后人体最多只能利用30克蛋白质。

Because for many decades, it has been purported, believed, and propagated that the maximum amount of protein that you can utilize after a meal is 30 grams.

是的。

Yeah.

这成了一个神圣的数字。

Became like a the holy number.

而这项研究实际上表明，超过30克的蛋白质也能被利用。

And this study essentially showed that more than 30 grams can be used.

是的。

Yeah.

不仅是作为能量来源，更是用于肌肉中的蛋白质合成。

Not just as energy, but for the sake of protein synthesis in muscle.

对吗？

Correct?

是的。

Yeah.

这项研究结果出来后，考虑到它只是单一研究，你是怎么看待的？

And it and how did that study land with you given that it's one study?

不细说所有细节了，这个研究有没有让你改变训练后的蛋白质摄入方式？

Without going into all the details, I did that inspire you to change anything about your protein intake after training?

所以我告诉人们，我不会因为单一研究就大幅改变自己的观点。

So what I tell people is I don't make big shifts in my opinions based on single studies.

是的。

Yeah.

这并不让我感到意外，为什么呢？

Why does that not surprise me?

它确实让我有一点动摇。

It shimmies me a little bit.

对吧？

Right?

甚至在那项研究出来之前，我就说过，我认为蛋白质的分布确实重要，但远不如每日总蛋白质摄入量重要。

So and what even before that study came out, what I had said is, I think protein distribution matters, but I think it matters much, much less than total protein intake per day.

因为我们只需要看看一些关于间歇性禁食的抗阻训练研究，这些研究中的人们在八小时窗口期内摄入全部蛋白质，理论上你可能会认为他们的肌肉增长会较少，尤其是基于这种不应期数据，因为刺激时间更短。

Because all we need to do is look at some of these resistance training studies with intermittent fasting where people are eating all their protein in an eight hour window, and theoretically, you would think they would get less muscle growth, especially based on this refractory data because less time to stimulate.

但在格兰特·廷斯利实验室的至少两项研究中，我认为有两项做得非常好，我们并没有看到这种情况。

But at least in the studies out of Grant Tinsley's lab, we I think there's two studies that were very well done where we don't see that.

重要的是要指出，他们在进食窗口期内进行训练，并且确保在那八小时里吃了三顿高质量、高蛋白的餐食。

Now important to point out, they trained during their feeding window, and they had three they made sure they ate three high quality, high protein meals during that eight hour time.

对吧？

Right?

所以在这种情况下，间歇性禁食组与持续进食组在瘦体重增加方面并没有差异。

So at least in that context, there was no difference in the amount of lean mass gained between intermittent fasting groups versus continuous feeding groups.

那么在持续进食组中，你能记得他们是在多长时间内吃完餐食的吗？

Now And in the continuous feeding groups, do you recall what duration they were eating their meals over?

大概是十二小时左右吗？

Was it probably twelve hours or so?

我不太记得具体细节了，但我没印象他们有明确的时间规定。

I I don't recall specifically, but I I don't recall an actual defined time.

我得回去查一下

I'd have to go back

超过八小时。

to than eight hours.

当然。

For sure.

你知道，我很高兴我们谈到这里了，因为我的第一个实际问题——来自你在社交媒体上征集的问题——是很多人，如果不是成千上万的话，都在问如何确保在进行间歇性禁食时摄入足够的蛋白质。

You know, I'm so glad we're landing here because my first let's just call it sort of operational or actionable question, which came from, you know, asking on social media for questions for you was many, many people, if not in the thousands asked how to make sure that they're getting enough protein if they're doing something like intermittent fasting.

而我自己也属于这一类。

And I myself fall into this category.

我

I

我这么做并没有特定目的。

don't do it for any specific purpose.

这比Sachin Panda开始研究限时进食（即间歇性禁食）要早得多，但我通常不太想在上午11点前吃任何东西。

This was long before Sachin Panda started doing his work on time restricted feeding AKA intermittent fasting, but I don't tend to want to eat any food until about 11AM.

偶尔我会饿醒，比如今天早上，我吃了一些鸡蛋，因为特别饿，但我想这代表了很多人的情况。

Occasionally I wake up hungry like this morning and I had some eggs, was particularly hungry, but that's, I think that's representative of a lot of people.

我早上需要补水和咖啡因。

I want hydration and caffeine in the morning.

我想早上锻炼，然后锻炼完后尽快吃东西。

I want to train in the morning and then I want to eat pretty soon after I train.

但这意味着我是在八到九小时的进食窗口内进食，如果我只吃两餐加一点零食，那么每餐最多只能有30克蛋白质用于蛋白质合成。

But what that means is that I'm eating during an eight to nine hour And feeding if I only manage two meals in there and a snack, and I can only assimilate, or excuse me, I can only put 30 grams of protein per meal toward protein synthesis.

我们必须小心，不要把蛋白质用作能量，而要用于蛋白质合成。

We have to be careful not about using it for energy, but toward protein synthesis.

这意味着我无法达到每磅理想瘦体重摄入一克蛋白质的目标吗？我体重约100公斤，也就是220磅。

Does that mean that I'm not going to hit my target of one gram of protein per pound of desired lean body mass because I'm a hundred kilograms, I weigh about two hundred and twenty pounds.

在九小时的时间里，我轻松就能吃下220克蛋白质。

I can easily eat 220 grams of protein in a nine hour period.

给我三块牛排就行。

Like, give me three rib eyes.

我会把三份都吃了。

I'll eat all three.

没错。

Right.

我超爱牛里脊牛排。

I love rib eye steak.

对吧？

Right?

但问题是，我能利用好这些吗？

But the question is, can I use that?

所以，我要再回到那个实验上来。

So and I'm gonna bring this back around to that particular experiment.

随着时间推移，当我离开研究生院时，我的观点是这很重要。

So over time and and when I left grad school, my position was that it matters.

蛋白质的分布很重要。

Protein distribution matters.

所以我先给你一个直截了当的科学答案，然后再告诉你，如果给我注射了真实血清，我真正是怎么想的。

So I'll give you the straight down the line scientific answer, and then I'll give you if you inject me with true serum, what I really think answer.

所以我们做了一个实验。

And and so we did an experiment.

同样，在大鼠身上，我们给它们喂食完全相同的饮食，总热量、蛋白质、碳水化合物和脂肪都一样。

Again, in rats, we fed them, completely same diets, same total calories, protein, carbs, fats.

但其中一组的蛋白质是平均分配在三餐中，而另一组70%的蛋白质都集中在最后一餐。

But, in one group, they got that pretty much evenly across three meals, and the other group, 70% of their protein was coming at their last meal.

另外两餐则只含有大约15%的每日蛋白质摄入量。

And then the other two meals were, like, 15% protein, 15% of daily protein.

同样是十一周，对于老鼠来说，十一周占了它们寿命的很大一部分，老鼠一般能活十八到二十四个月。

And eleven weeks again, eleven weeks out of a rat's life, rodents live eighteen to twenty four months.

这占了它们生命中相当大的一部分。

That's a big chunk of their life.

对吧？

Right?

我们确实观察到后肢肌肉质量方面有大约5%到10%的差异。

And we did see about a five to 10% difference in the weights of the hind limbs in terms of muscle mass.

好的。

Okay.

是偏向哪个方向？

In what direction?

偏向均匀分布。

Favoring equal distribution.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

不过，要在人类身上重复这项研究很难。

Now, again, hard to repeat that study in humans.

对吧？

Right?

至于持续时间，已经完成了。

And for the duration, it's done.

所以我想了想，说：你知道吗？

So I came out saying, you know what?

实际上，这比我以为的要少，我以为我们会发现更大的差异。

That's actually less than I thought we were gonna I thought we're gonna find bigger differences than that.

你知道，如果你想想刺激蛋白质合成的次数，一天一次 versus 一天三次。

You know, because, I mean, if you're thinking about number of times you're stimulating protein synthesis, I mean, one per day versus three per day.

我的意思是，难道不应该有相当显著的差异吗？

I mean, shouldn't there be like a pretty significant difference there?

结果确实达到了显著水平，但again，我觉得效应量比我预期的要小。

And it was, I mean, it reached the level of significance but again, I I thought the effect size was smaller than I thought.

所以我走出来时想：你知道吗？

And so I kinda walked out saying, you know what?

每天的总蛋白质摄入量才是最重要的，如果能相对均匀地分配，那可能就只是额外的5%到10%了。

Total protein intake is the most important thing per day And then if you can distribute it relatively evenly, that's maybe the last five to 10%.

对吧？

Right?

你已经看过一些人体研究，其中似乎有影响。

And you've seen some human studies where it seems to matter.

大多数研究显示，这其实没那么重要。

Most seem to show it doesn't really matter that much.

这是我个人的看法。

Here's here's what I think.

如果你测量的指标是瘦体重，不幸的是，八周内它变化不大。

If you're measuring an outcome like lean mass, that doesn't change much in eight weeks, unfortunately.

差异非常小。

It's very small differences.

所以，我认为很难检测到这一点。

And so, I think it's gonna be hard to detect that.

但我会告诉人们的是，如果你问，间歇性禁食能长肌肉吗？

But what I'll tell people is can't if you're asking, can you build muscle on intermittent fasting?

当然。

Absolutely.

你能长很多肌肉吗？

Can you build a lot of muscle?

可能吧。

Probably.

如果你是个健美运动员，属于特定人群，或者你的目标是成为尽可能最肌肉发达、最强壮的人，我认为你最好别进行间歇性禁食，因为那最后的5%可能会带来很大差异，而你不可能在八周的人类随机对照试验中检测出这一点。

If you are a bodybuilder, specific population, or if your goal is to be the most muscular, strongest human being you can possibly become, I think you're probably better off not doing intermittent fasting just because those last that last 5% may make a big difference, and you're never gonna be able to pick that out of a human randomized control trial in eight weeks.

至少，我不认为你能做到。

At least, I don't think you will.

所以，再次说明，我没有人类数据来真正支持这一点，但基于我对信号通路和动物实验中观察到的效果的了解，这就是我的建议。

And so, again, I don't have any human data to really back that up, but just based on what I know about signaling and the effects we saw on animals, that's kind of my recommendation.

但大多数人并不属于这一类。

But most people don't fall in that category.

大多数人只是担心，嘿。

Most people are just worried about, hey.

我想看起来好看，稍微练点肌肉。

I wanna look good, build a little bit of muscle.

间歇性禁食是实现这个目标的完美工具。

Intermittent fasting is perfectly fine tool for doing that.

我要说，显然，我们还没有研究过一些更极端的禁食方式对增肌的影响。

I will say, you know, obviously, we haven't studied some of the more extreme forms of fasting in terms of building muscle.

对吧？

Right?

比如，16:8禁食法已经被研究过了。

Like, the sixteen eight has been studied.

但我想到一项研究，是在没有抗阻训练的情况下，比较隔日禁食和持续正常饮食的效果。

But, like, I'm thinking of a study that was done without resistance training, alternate day fasting versus continuous kind of normal feeding.

所以一天不吃，第二天吃。

So one day, no eating, next day eat.

对。

Right.

所以他们做得非常严苛。

So they did brutal.

他们这么做，至少对我来说是这样。

They did Or at least for somebody like me.

我想不出还有什么比这更糟的了。

I can't think of anything worse.

我宁愿连续禁食三天，然后连续吃四天，因为我知道到了第二天，情况可能会变轻松，而不是更难；但这种交替禁食和进食的方式肯定折磨人。

I'd rather fast for three days in a row and then eat for, you know, four days in a row simply because I know that by day two, it's probably gonna get easier, not not harder, but on off fasting eating's gotta be just torturous.

他们的方式是，连续组每天摄入维持热量的75%，也就是处于热量赤字状态。

So the way they did it was they did, the continuous group was getting 75% of their maintenance calories per day, so in a deficit.

而交替日组则是有一天摄入150%，另一天则完全不摄入。

And then the alternate day of group was doing a 150% and then zero.

对吧？

Right?

所以平均下来是75%。

So you're getting an average of 75.

在那项研究结束时，他们确实观察到瘦体重的差异，连续进食组损失的瘦体重比交替禁食组更少。

And they actually saw differences in lean mass at the end of that study, the continuous feeding group, lost less lean mass than the alternate fasting group.

所以我要说，这只是一个研究，而且没有包含抗阻训练。

So what I'll that's only one study and it had didn't have resistance training.

有可能抗阻训练可以减轻其中一些影响。

It's possible that the resistance training could attenuate some of that stuff.

但我想说的是，更极端的禁食形式可能并不利于维持瘦体重。

But what I'll say is, you know, the more extreme forms of fasting probably aren't optimal for a lean mass.

对吧？

Right?

而且，你能想象在完全禁食的一天训练吗？三小时后，你肯定会虚脱。

Also, can you imagine training complete on a day of complete fasting after three hours after that, you're gonna be dying.

你可能会说，那你可以只在进食的日子训练。

And you could say, well, you could just train on the days when you eat.

但如果你经常大力训练腿部——我知道你确实会——然后第二天却什么都不吃，会怎么样？

But then if you ever train legs hard, which I know you do, or if anyone does, and then the next day, you're not gonna eat anything.

对。

Right.

好好练完腿的第二天，我的食欲会增加。

The day after training legs properly, my appetite's increased.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为，这正是理论与实践产生分歧的地方：随机对照试验这么说，但我自己还是做了一点不一样的事。

So I think this is where the rubber kinda meets the road in terms of straight down the line, the randomized control trials say this, but I still do something a little bit different.

对吧？

Right?

因为随机对照试验说，蛋白质的分布其实并不太重要。

Because the randomized control trials say, yeah, protein distribution doesn't really seem to matter.

对吧？

Right?

但话说回来，你要是给我注射真血清。

But, again, you inject me with true serum.

我认为它可能还是有点影响的。

I think it probably does matter a little bit.

对吧？

Right?

但它的重要性有总蛋白量那么大吗？

Now does it matter as much as total protein?

绝对没有。

Absolutely not.

那才是最大的关键因素。

That is by far the biggest lever.

但再说一次，如果我的目标是成为我能达到的最肌肉发达、最强壮的人——而我确实如此，因为这就是我参赛的原因——我会把蛋白质分配到每天四到五餐中。

But, again, if my context is I wanna become the most muscular, strongest human being I can be, which I do because that's where I compete, I'm gonna distribute my protein probably over four to five meals per day.

对吧？

Right?

所以对你个人而言，

And so for for you, just personally

是的

Mhmm.

你通常几点起床？第一餐是什么时候？

What what time of day do you wake up and when's your first meal?

现在是夏天。

So, well, it's summer right now.

孩子们放暑假了。

So kids are off of school.

所以我们通常早上七点半到八点左右起床。

So we're usually getting up around like 07:30, 08:00 in the morning.

我的第一餐通常在一个小时内吃。

And my first meal is usually within an hour.

然后我睡觉前大约一小时内也会吃一顿，中间再吃两到三餐。

And then I usually eat within an hour of going to bed, and then I'll have two or three meals in between those.

所以我一般一天吃四餐。

So I usually, I have about four meals a day.

有时候我会吃五顿。

Sometimes I'll have five.

如果那天特别长，或者我的时间安排就是这样，或者其他原因。

If it's just a longer day or just how my timing kinda goes or whatever.

你每顿饭都包含大约30克以上的优质蛋白质吗？

And does each one of your meals include approximately 30 plus grams of quality protein?

是的。

Yeah.

一些淀粉类碳水化合物、纤维类碳水化合物，还有一些脂肪。

Some starchy carbohydrate, fibrous carbohydrate, and and some fat.

我的一些餐食可能主要是蛋白质之类的，但大多数情况下每顿都包含混合成分。

I mean, sometimes they end up being, like, mostly protein or or whatnot, but for the most part, there's a mix in each one.

通常每餐大约有50克蛋白质。

And usually around 50 grams of protein at a meal.

我每天摄入大约235克蛋白质。

I eat about 235 of protein a day.

有些人会认为，哦，这比你需要的要多。

Some people would argue that, oh, that's more than you need.

研究表明，每公斤体重1.6克是反应达到上限的量。

The research is showing that 1.6 grams per kg maxes out the response.

关键是这样。

Here's the thing.

而且，这正是科学实验像大锤一样粗暴的地方。

And, again, this is where, like, scientific experiments are big blunt instruments.

明白吗？

Okay?

它们更常告诉你不该做什么，而不是该做什么。

They they will tell you what not to do more often than they will tell you what to do.

明白吗？

Okay?

关于蛋白质，我个人的看法——这大概是我研究这门学问二十年后的一点直觉——我不确定是否存在一个真正让蛋白质合成反应达到上限的精确量。

When it comes to protein, my personal opinion, and this is just, I guess, a little bit of intuition based off of twenty years of studying this stuff, is that I don't know if there's an actual amount of protein that maxes out the protein synthesis response.

如果我要打赌的话，我会赌这是一个渐近线。

I would bet if I was a betting man that it's kind of an asymptote.

你熟悉这个概念。

You're familiar with yep.

所以你的意思是并不是每个人都在看。

So your Not everyone's watching.

我只是提了一下渐近线。

I just threw an asymptote.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

一个渐近线图。

An asymptote plot.

但对于那些没在看的人，想象一下一个图表迅速上升到很高，然后基本稳定在那个高水平。

But for those not watching, just think about a a plot quickly rising very, very high and then essentially stay stable at the high level.

是的。

Yep.

也许稍微有点渐变。

Maybe with a slight bit of taper.

对。

Yeah.

所以如果它趋向于零，就很容易解释。

So it's it's so it's easy to explain if it's going towards zero.

所以一个渐近线可能是：你一开始有10，然后是5，再是2.5。

So an asymptote might be, okay, you start out, you have 10, then five, then two and a half.

你正在朝相反的方向前进。

You're running in the opposite direction.

对。

Right.

仍然是从高到低的渐近线。

Still asymptote going from high to low.

对。

Right.

所以渐近线可以从低到高。

So asymptote can go from low to high.

它也可以从高到低。

It can go from high to low.

正确。

Correct.

所以我正在试着解释，因为当人们这样理解时会更清楚。

So I'm I'm trying to explain it because it makes more sense when people kinda go this way.

你永远达不到零，但它会越来越接近。

You never reach zero, but it keeps getting incrementally closer.

在另一端，我认为蛋白质合成永远不会达到极限。

On the other end, I don't think protein synthesis ever maxes out.

我只是觉得增加的幅度变得如此之小，以至于实际上没有区别，你也看不到结果上的差异。

I just think the increment of increase becomes so small that practically there's no difference, and you wouldn't see a difference in outcome.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为，你知道，目前存在争议，到底是每公斤1.6克还是2.4克？

And so I think that, you know, one you know, there's debate over is it 1.6 grams per kg, 2.4 grams per kg?

甚至有一项元回归分析显示，高达每公斤3.3克也有益处。

I and there's even been a meta regression that showed up to 3.3 grams per kg.

它确实有好处。

It had benefits.

我认为在蛋白质合成方面，你是在观察极小数字之间的微小差异。

I think a lot of this is with protein synthesis, you're looking before small differences between small numbers.

说实话，这种分析并不够敏感。

It's not a very sensitive analysis, to be quite honest with you.

而且，我们根本不可能分辨出这些差异；我想起斯图·菲利普斯的一项研究，如果你不知道他是谁，他是目前蛋白质代谢领域最顶尖的研究者之一，我可不想漏掉任何人。

And, again, we would never be able to pick out those different and I'm thinking about there was a study by Stu Phillips who if people don't know who Stu Phillips is, this is he's the best researcher going in protein metabolism right now, but one of the best, so I don't wanna take anybody off.

他大约十五年前做过一项研究，给受试者不同剂量的鸡蛋蛋白，观察了五克、十克、二十克和四十克鸡蛋蛋白的效果。

And he he did a study probably fifteen years ago where they gave, people different levels of egg protein, and they looked at five, ten, twenty, and forty grams of egg protein.

他们的结论是，20克鸡蛋蛋白能最大化蛋白质合成反应。

And their conclusion was that 20 grams of egg protein maximized the protein synthesis response.

但这是因为如果p值大于0.05，你就不能说存在差异。

But that's because straight down the line, if there's a p value of more than point zero five, you can't say there's a difference.

对吧？

Right?

但如果你看20克和40克之间的绝对差异，我认为大约是11%。

But if you looked at the absolute difference between twenty and forty grams, I think it was, 11%.

如果你看那个图表，它几乎像是趋于渐近线的开端。

And if you look at the the the graph, it almost looks like the start of an asymptote.

对吧？

Right?

这只是一个研究，样本量也不大，但这就是我个人的观点：这也支持了这种看法，比如一餐吃100克蛋白质，可能仍然能被利用，因为我也不确定是否存在一个上限。

Now this was one study, wasn't a huge subject number, but that's kind of where my personal thoughts land on it, that there's that kind of also support this, okay, 100 grams in a meal, you know, could still be utilized, because I'm not sure if there's a max out.

我认为存在一个实际的上限，当你达到某个点时，比如说。

I think there's a practical max out where you get to a point where, hey.

你明明在一次性摄入多50克蛋白质，却只换来百分之零点零零零一的蛋白质合成提升。

You're, like, slamming down 50 grams more protein for point 0001% more protein synthesis.

这毫无意义。

It doesn't make sense.

但，是的，我怀疑我们实际在科学实验中根本无法精确区分这些数值。

But, yeah, we'll never be able to I doubt we'll be able to pick those numbers out in actual scientific experiments.

关于整个蛋白质代谢的图景，还有一点需要记住：我们实际上只讨论了这个等式的一侧。

And the other thing to keep in mind with this whole protein metabolism picture is we're really only talking about one side of this equation.

因此，骨骼肌质量的净增加或减少，是蛋白质合成与蛋白质降解之间的平衡。

So net gain or loss of skeletal muscle mass is the balance between protein synthesis and protein degradation.

而我们大多数蛋白质研究者一谈到蛋白质降解，就会捂住耳朵，假装听不见，因为这实在太难测量了。

And most of us protein researchers just kind of stick our fingers in our ears and go la la la la when it comes to protein degradation because it's so incredibly hard to measure.

所以，是的，当我们把这些因素都综合起来看时，整个图景就变得极其复杂了。

And so, yeah, like, when we start to put all that stuff together, it's like now this picture gets really complicated.

因此，当人们问到这类问题时，我会说：听好了，你真的可以在这上面深挖到没完没了。

So what I tell people when it comes to that kind of stuff is, listen, you could really get into the weeds on this stuff.