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每个人都专注于改变行为。
Everyone's focused on changing behavior.
每个人都专注于增强意志力来克服这种倾向。
Everyone's focused on increasing willpower to overcome this tendency.
但为什么不能直接改变这种倾向呢？
And it's like, why not just change the tendency?
这听起来很简单，但这正是我们在心理治疗中每天都在做的事情——当有人患有自恋型人格障碍时。
That sounds so simple, but that's literally what we do in psychotherapy every day when we come in and someone has a narcissistic personality disorder.
这就是人格。
This is personality.
这就是他们的本质，我们可以通过心理治疗帮助他们变成另一个人，让他们的自然想法改变，让他们看待世界的方式改变，让他们的行为自然改变。
This is who they are, and we can psychotherapize them to be someone else for their natural thoughts to change, for the way that they see the world to change, for their behaviors to change on its own.
当你不再试图表现得不自恋时，就不需要意志力。
It doesn't require willpower is necessary when you are trying to not be narcissistic.
当你不再自恋时，就不需要意志力了。
It is not necessary when you are no longer narcissistic.
所以我们在心理治疗中已经做到了。
So we've done it in psychotherapy.
我们知道，如果你的自尊心发生变化，如果你的自我认知发生变化，难治性抑郁症也会随之改变。
We know that if your self esteem changes, if your sense of being changes, treatment refractory depression will change.
创伤和创伤后应激障碍也会改变。
Trauma, PTSD will change.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学及基于科学的日常生活工具。
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
今天的嘉宾是医生。
My guest today is Doctor.
阿洛克·卡诺吉亚，也被称为医生。
Alok Kanogia, also known as Doctor.
K。
K.
医生。
Doctor.
K医生是一位精神科医生和在线心理健康教育者。
K is a psychiatrist and online mental health educator.
他有着非常独特的背景，曾在美國接受培训并获得医学学位，但也曾出家为僧七年。
He has a very unique background, having trained and earned his medical degree in The United States, but also having studied as a monk for seven years.
今天，我们讨论了提升自我认知和心理健康、重塑神经系统的一些强大工具，特别是如何摆脱不健康的思想模式和行为，并用真正有益于你和你身边人的模式取而代之。
Today, we discuss powerful tools for increasing your self understanding and mental health, and for rewiring your nervous system, specifically how you can unlearn unhealthy thought patterns and behaviors and replace them with ones that truly serve you and those around you.
今天讨论的大部分内容围绕东西方在自我、自我概念等概念上的差异。
Much of today's discussion centers around differences between Eastern and Western concepts of things like the ego and what makes up our self-concept.
这部分对话无疑会让你重新思考自己在几乎所有事情中这样做的原因。
That portion of the conversation will no doubt have you rethinking why you do what you do in virtually everything.
他还提供了一条清晰的路径，帮助你明确定义最佳目标，并通过激发深层内在动机来提升能量和动力，而不是依靠捷径。
And he provides a roadmap for clearly defining your best goals and for increasing things like your energy and drive, not through hacks, but by tapping into deep intrinsic motivation.
事实上，在今天的整个节目中，医生。
In fact, throughout today's episode, Doctor.
K解释了你可以用来帮助重塑神经系统、解决创伤，并更清晰地理解如何在工作、学习和人际关系中有效投入精力的具体方法。
K explains specific practices that you can use to help rewire your nervous system, resolve traumas, and come to a much clearer understanding of how best to apply your efforts in work, school, and relationships.
我们还讨论了社交媒体、约会与人际关系、成瘾和色情内容。
We also discussed social media, dating, and relationships, addiction and pornography.
所以今天涵盖了非常多的话题。
So there are a lot of topics covered.
我必须说，这是一场我无论在播客上还是播客外都从未有过的对话。
And I have to say, this is a conversation unlike any other that I've had on or off the podcast.
医生。
Doctor.
K为我们提供了一种全新的视角，来应对我们所有人共同面临的常见困扰。
K offers a completely new perspective on how to resolve common struggles that we all face.
在此过程中，他提供了许多实用的工具。
And in doing so, he offers a lot of practical tools.
因此，对于任何希望在理论和心理层面更深入理解自己，同时又希望运用具体方法改善生活某些或全部方面的人来说，这场对话都将非常有价值。
So this should be a very valuable conversation for anyone wishing to better understand themselves at the theoretical and psychological level, but also who wishes to implement specific tools to improve some or all aspects of their life.
在开始之前，我想强调的是，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究工作无关。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
然而，它确实体现了我希望向公众免费提供科学及相关工具信息的愿望和努力。
It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.
秉承这一宗旨，今天的节目包含了一些赞助商内容。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
现在，让我们开始与医生的对话。
And now for my discussion with Doctor.
阿洛克·卡诺吉亚。
Alok Kanogia.
医生。
Doctor.
K，欢迎你。
K, welcome.
安德鲁·胡伯曼，感谢你邀请我。
Andrew Huberman, thank you for having me.
我对你的经历和你所掌握的知识非常感兴趣。
So interested in you and the knowledge you hold.
今天，我们要讨论很多话题。
Today, we're gonna talk about a number of things.
我的意思是，阿育吠陀、东西方医学、动机和多巴胺，但我想先从互联网说起。
I mean, Ayurveda and east west medicine motivation and dopamine, but I wanna start with the Internet.
好的。
Okay.
你的成长经历很特别，和我的很不一样，不仅因为年龄差距，你还从小就在互联网环境中长大。
You had an interesting upbringing, so very different than mine, not just because of our age difference, but you grew up on the Internet.
是的。
Like Yeah.
因此，你对互联网和社交媒体上的人们有着深刻的共情。
And so you really have an empathy for people on the Internet, on social media.
现在每个人都在网上。
Now everyone's on the Internet.
是什么让你如此着迷于屏幕和这种界面？
What was it that drew you to screens and that interface with such a a a degree of magnetism?
你知道吗，我小时候是个神童，我认为我们往往忽视了一点：学校总是按照最慢学生的节奏进行。
You know, I was like a gifted kid growing up, and I think that one of the things that we don't really appreciate is how school moves at the pace of the slowest kid.
所以对我来说，学校极其无聊。
So school was incredibly boring for me.
而且我当时年纪也小，还跳了一级。
And then I was also young, so I I was a year ahead.
因此，我在五岁上一年级时，就和七岁的孩子在操场上或体育课上竞争。
And so I was, like, early on when I was a five year old in in first grade, and I was competing against seven year olds, like, on the playground or in in in gym class.
我体育很差。
I sucked at sports.
所以我真正上瘾的是这种电脑游戏的概念——当你通关第一关时，第二关就出现了。
So the the one thing that I really got addicted to was this idea of, like, a computer game where, like, when you beat level one, like, level two is there.
你知道吧？
You know?
如果你通过了第二关，第三关就会出现。
And then if you beat level two, like, level three is there.
如果你在第三关失败了，你可以重新尝试第三关。
If you fail at level three, you get to try level three again.
所以这是唯一一项能跟上我思维节奏的活动。
So it was the only activity that was, like, cognitively to my pacing.
这真的深深吸引了我，但我直到多年后才意识到这一点。
And and so that really drew me in, and I didn't realize that until years later.
你知道，我父母非常支持让我们早早入学，如果能跳级，那就更好了。
You know, my parents were big fans of putting us into school, like, young, and if you can skip grades, like, that's great.
对吧？
Right?
因为人生是一场竞赛。
Because life is a race.
你完成得越快，事情就越好。
And and the faster you finish, the better things are.
但我当时没意识到，一个五岁或六岁的孩子和七岁或八岁的孩子一起上学，在发展上有多大的挑战性。
But I I didn't realize how developmentally challenging it is to be like a five year old or a six year old in in school with, like, seven year olds or eight year olds.
所以我想，这就是最初吸引我的地方。
So I think that's what originally drew me in.
如果你不介意的话，你的父母是来自印度的第一代移民吗？
If you don't mind me asking, so you were first generation immigrant parents from India?
是的。
Yep.
我是在南湾的帕洛阿尔托长大的，所以对这种高强度的学术环境很熟悉。
I mean, I grew up in the South Bay in Palo Alto, so I'm familiar with intense academic environments.
当然。
Sure.
是的。
Yeah.
尤其是在过去十年、二十年里，这种情况越来越严重。
Increasingly so in the last ten, twenty years.
但即使在我那里时，压力也非常大。
But even when I was there, it was intense.
你感受到这种压力了吗？
Did you feel that as pressure?
当然有。
Absolutely.
我的最早记忆是我祖母告诉我，总有一天我会成为一名出色的医生。
I mean, I I my earliest memories of are of my grandmother telling me I'm gonna make a great doctor one day.
当我大约15岁的时候，人们会问我，比如我和父母一起去参加聚会，他们的朋友就会问：你长大后想做什么？
And when I was, like, 15 years old, people would ask me, like, I'd go to, a party, right, with my parents and their friends, and people would ask me, what do you wanna be when you grow up?
所以我就会说：我要当医生。
And so I was like, I'm gonna be a doctor.
然后大家都说：哇。
And everyone's like, wow.
真了不起。
Impressive.
你知道吧？
You know?
所以，我15岁时的脑海里，对医生这个角色有着一种了不起的想象，而我的父母都是医生。
So my 15 year old brain was like looking at this this, like, amazing idea of what a doctor was, and both my parents are doctors.
我爸爸是一位了不起的医生。
My dad was an amazing doctor.
我妈妈应该也是，但我爸爸是移植物抗宿主病领域的奠基性研究者之一。
I suppose my mom is too, but my dad was one of the seminal researchers in, like, graft versus host disease.
这正是他能在MD安德森医院获得职位的原因。
It's how he landed his job at MD Anderson.
所以他从印度来，成为一名肿瘤学家。
So he, like, came from India and, like, was an oncologist.
我还记得，那时候HIPAA还没出台，我觉得甚至都还没有HIPAA这个法律。
And so I also remember, like, he used to back then, HIPAA wasn't I I I think there wasn't even a HIPAA law.
所以他经常会把病人请到我们家来，诸如此类的事情。
So he would have, you know, patients over to our house and stuff like that.
他每年都会举办感恩节派对，邀请他所有的病人、癌症康复者等等。
He would throw a Thanksgiving party every year where, like, he would invite all of his patients, all cancer survivors, and and things like that.
我爸爸真的就像一个传奇人物，极具魅力。
And so my dad was really, like, a mythical figure, incredibly charismatic.
所以我就想，哦，是的。
And so I I was like, oh, yeah.
我也要成为那样的人。
I'm gonna be that.
于是这成了我自我认同的重要部分。
And so it became a huge part of my ego.
但后来我发现，靠这种自尊心来驱动并不是好方法——虽然它确实能很好地激励自己。
And then it turns out that ego is not a great way to motive well, it can be a great way to motivate yourself.
但当我上大学时遇到了麻烦，因为我从没学过如何学习。
But then I ran into trouble when I hit college because I had never learned how to study.
所以要么我一下子全吸收了，考试考得很好，要么就从A直接滑到F，然后沉迷电子游戏，最终被大学退学。
So either I, like, absorbed everything and did well on the test, so I went straight from, like, As to Fs, and then got addicted to video games, failed out of college.
但你最初的问题是‘不’。
But your original question was No.
你对电脑感兴趣吗？为什么？
Was I into computers and and why?
这可能与此有关。
And that's probably has something to do with it.
听起来你对电脑如此着迷，以至于最终因为这种成瘾而失控了。
Well, it sounds like you were so into computers, you eventually went over the cliff of computers with this addiction.
但我想谈谈成瘾问题，不过我觉得这是一个完美的切入点，我们接下来可以来回切换讨论。
But I wanna talk about the addiction, but I think this is a perfect frame and maybe we'll jump back and forth as we move forward.
这完美地诠释了我经常听到和思考的问题：我是X世代。
This is a perfect frame for what I have heard and wonder about a lot, which is, you know, I'm Gen X.
好的。
Okay.
你是千禧一代。
You're a millennial.
是的
Yeah.
我听说，紧随X世代之后的那些世代，可能得到了更多爱与鼓励去感受自己的情绪，对创伤和成瘾有了更多认知，但也许并没有为他们所有人设定普遍的高标准。
And I'm told that the generations right behind Gen X perhaps had more love and encouragement to feel their feelings, notions of what trauma and addiction were, but maybe that there wasn't this universally high standards set for all of them.
这正是你如今在新闻中看到的叙事。
That's the narrative that you see in the in the news right now.
哦，知道吗，这个被宠坏的一代之类的。
Oh, know, this coddled generation, etcetera.
你被设定了很高的标准。
You had high standards set for you.
当你观察你的同龄人，观察互联网上关于千禧一代和更年轻一代的讨论时，你觉得我们能做出一个概括性的结论吗？比如，是的。
When you look out on your peers and you look out on the Internet for millennials and younger, do you think that we can make a general statement about, oh, yeah.
你知道，所有这些对成瘾、创伤和情绪的欣赏与理解，对我这一代人来说完全是陌生的，这究竟是帮助了我们，还是伤害了我们，关于自我认知以及个人需求的这些意识。
You know, all all this appreciation and understanding about what addiction and trauma and feelings are, you know, that just was foreign to my generation, frankly, that it helped or hurt to have this this awareness of of kind of self and what one needs and and all of that.
你觉得，是的。
Do do you think that it yeah.
你认为这有助于还是阻碍了发展？
Do you think it helped or or it hurt development?
嗯，安德鲁，我很高兴能和一位科学家对话，因为我认为这既有帮助也有负面影响。
Well, so, Andrew, I'm delighted to be speaking to a scientist because I think it helped and hurt.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
正如你所知，事情是多因素的。
So so this is as you know, things are multifactorial.
很少是单一因素造成的。
It's rarely one thing or another thing.
所以我认为很多人因为对情绪的觉察而有所进步。
So I think a lot of people picked up ground with awareness of feelings.
作为一名精神科医生，我知道很多人小时候对家庭动态毫无意识，对自己的情绪也一无所知，成长过程中经历了回避型依恋，难以建立联系。
I as a psychiatrist, you know, I work with people who were unaware of the family dynamics going on in in their life, in their household, unaware of their emotions, growing up with things like avoidant attachment and having difficulty forming connections.
所以我认为，更加有觉察总是好的。
So I think it is always good to be more aware.
我认为，觉察可能是与成功和幸福关联最紧密的单一因素。
I think, actually, awareness is probably the single factor that correlates the most with, like, success and happiness.
挑战在于，一个非常微妙的点是，谈论情绪并不等同于真正地觉察到它们。
The challenge, the really subtle thing, is that talking about emotions isn't the same as actually being aware of them.
所以我认为，关于创伤和情绪的大量讨论，实际上已经被我们心智的其他部分——比如我们的自我——以非常微妙的方式 hijacked 了。
So I think what started to happen is a lot of this dialogue around trauma, a lot of this dialogue around feelings has actually been hijacked in very subtle ways by other parts of our mind, other parts, like, for example, our ego.
因此，这种治疗式的话语正在发生这样的情况。
And so it's kinda like this therapy speak has, and this happens.
你可以观察任何一群人。
So you can look at any population.
如果你遇到一个反社会的人，或者一个癔症或自恋的人，而大家都在谈论情绪，他们也会这么做，但却是以反社会的方式。
And if you have someone who's, like, sociopathic or if you have someone who's histrionic or narcissistic and everyone is talking feelings, they will do that too, but in a sociopathic way.
情绪现在已经开始被用作一种操控手段。
Feelings have now started to be used as a form of manipulation.
对吧？
Right?
所以人们会用这种方式，我经常看到，尤其是在现代互联网环境中。
So people will use like, I see this all the time, speaking of the Internet in its modern incarnation.
我们都谈论界限，但人们已经开始把界限用作控制他人的手段。
We all talk about boundaries, but people have started to use boundaries as a form of control for other human beings.
你知道吗？
You know?
我的界限是，你晚上8点后不能给任何人发短信。
My boundary is that you don't text anyone after 8PM.
我的界限是，每次我给你打电话，你都必须接电话。
My my boundary is that, you know, every time I call you, you need to answer the phone.
所以，这种基本的心理机制被利用的方式真的很奇怪。
So it's really bizarre how, like, basic, like, psychological stuff can hijack.
我们的心理模式会篡改所有这些心理健康术语。
Like, our our psychological patterns can hijack, like, all this mental health speak.
另一个很好的例子是，我记得很多年前在麻省总医院急诊室见过一位性侵受害者。
Another really good example of this is so I I remember I I was seeing an assault victim in the emergency room at at Mass General Hospital many years ago.
当时麻省理工学院的安保主管就在现场。
And so the MIT chief of security was campus security was there.
于是我跟他聊了聊，因为当时还有其他学生，也就是那位受侵害学生的同伴，他们正在跟我讨论安全问题。
And so I was talking to him a little bit about, you know because there were other students with with a student who had been assaulted, and and they were kind of talking to me about safety.
我记得麻省理工学院的安保主管跟我说过一句话，我至今都忘不了。
And I I remember something that the MIT chief told me that I I've never forgotten.
我们在谈论安全，他说：我的职责不是让人感觉安全。
We're talking about safety, and he's like, my job is not to make people feel safe.
我的职责是让人真正安全，这两者之间其实有巨大区别。
My job is to make people safe, and there's actually a big difference.
于是发生了一些有趣的变化。
And so something interesting has happened.
我们都变得更加自我中心了，因为互联网就是这样影响我们的。
We have all become more narcissistic because that's what the Internet does to us.
所以现在，如果我受伤了，这不再是我的责任。
And so now if I am hurt, that is no longer my responsibility.
这是因为你做错了什么事。
That is because you did something wrong.
这说得通吗？
Does that make sense?
从根本上说，如果我感到受伤，这通常是因为你做了什么错事。
Like, fundamentally, if I feel hurt, that is oftentimes tied to you doing something wrong.
因此，出现了一种倾向于把自己当作受害者的趋势，你甚至会看到有些人故意扮演受害者，但这并不意味着我们就不该相信受害者。
So there's this tendency towards victimization where you'll see even people who are, like like, playing the victim card, which which doesn't mean that we shouldn't be believing victims.
我认为这正是发生的事情：我们开始意识到过去没有认真对待受害者，但随后社会中所有善于变通的人都注意到了这种模式，他们意识到：好吧。
I think that's exactly what happens is we started to realize that we're not taking victims seriously, but then all the chameleons in our society were looking at this pattern, and they were realizing, okay.
我最快获得优势的方式就是声称自己是受害者。
The fastest way for me to get ahead is to claim to be a victim.
因此，现在这种过分强调感受的倾向，正引发各种奇怪的演变。
So there are all kinds of weird permutations that are happening right now with this sort of emphasis on feeling.
另一个基于证据的例子是，我们正目睹情绪障碍、焦虑障碍、成瘾和身体畸形障碍的普遍增加。
One more evidence based example of this is, you know, we're seeing the prevalence of mood disorders, anxiety disorders, addictions, body dysmorphia.
基本上，一切都在变得更糟。
Basically, everything is getting worse.
因此，随着我们越来越多地谈论感受，出现了一种被称为跨诊断因素的现象，我们可以深入探讨一下。
And so one weird thing that started to happen is as we've talked more about feelings, there is something called a transdiagnostic factor, which we can get into.
我不确定你是否熟悉这些概念。
I don't know if you're familiar with these or not.
但如果你观察所有的精神疾病，会发现某些特质是多种精神疾病的危险因素。
But so if you look at, like, all of the mental illnesses, there are certain attributes that are a risk factor for multiple mental illnesses.
跨诊断因素的一个很好的例子是完美主义和反刍思维。
So a good example of transdiagnostic factors are perfectionism and rumination.
反刍思维本身并不会让你抑郁，也不会必然导致焦虑。
So rumination doesn't make you depressed, doesn't necessarily make you anxious.
但如果你反刍思维的倾向很高，你就更有可能患上重度抑郁症。
But if you have a high index of rumination, you are more likely to have a major depressive disorder.
你更有可能患上焦虑症。
You're more likely to have an anxiety disorder.
这样理解对吗？
Does that kinda make sense?
是的。
Mhmm.
如果你追求完美，你更有可能感到抑郁。
If you are perfectionistic, you are more likely to be depressed.
你更有可能感到焦虑。
You are more likely to be anxious.
因此，有一个有趣的跨诊断因素变得越来越严重，那就是所谓的痛苦耐受力。
So there's one interesting transdiagnostic factor which has gotten way worse, which is something called distress tolerance.
人类承受不舒适事物的能力正在急剧下降。
So human beings' capacity to sit with things and tolerate things that they do not find comfortable is starting to tank.
随着这种能力的下降，我们正看到精神疾病急剧增加。
And as that starts to tank, we're seeing an just an explosion of mental illness.
葡萄糖在我们身体的功能中扮演着关键角色，不仅在长期层面，而且在我们生命的每一刻都如此。
Glucose is a key player in how our body functions, not just in the long term, but in every moment of our lives.
这是因为它是细胞的主要能量来源，尤其是脑细胞。
That's because it is the major fuel for our cells, especially our brain cells.
葡萄糖直接影响我们的大脑功能、情绪和能量水平，甚至可能影响我们的毅力和意志力。
Glucose directly impacts our brain function, mood, and energy levels, and it may even affect our levels of tenacity and willpower.
这就是为什么我使用Lingo的连续葡萄糖监测仪。
This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor from Lingo.
我非常喜欢它，也很高兴Lingo成为这个播客的赞助商。
I absolutely love it, and I'm thrilled to have them as a sponsor of the podcast.
Lingo帮助我实时追踪我的葡萄糖水平，了解我所吃的食物和采取的行动如何影响我的葡萄糖。
Lingo helps me track my glucose in real time to see how the foods I eat and the actions I take impact my glucose.
当体内的葡萄糖水平飙升或骤降时，你的认知和身体表现也会随之波动。
When glucose in your body spikes or crashes, your cognitive and physical performance do too.
事实上，葡萄糖的大幅波动会导致脑雾、疲劳、易怒和饥饿。
In fact, large glucose peaks and valleys lead to brain fog, fatigue, irritability, and hunger.
你吃的食物当然对血糖有重大影响。
What you eat of course plays a major role in your glucose.
有些食物会导致血糖急剧上升和大幅下降，而另一些则不会，但每个人对特定食物的反应并不相同。
Some foods cause sharp spikes and big crashes and others do not, but not everyone is the same in terms of how they respond to particular foods.
实时观察你的血糖水平，有助于你养成支持代谢健康、思维清晰和持久能量的饮食及其他习惯。
Seeing your glucose in real time helps you build eating and other habits that support metabolic health, mental clarity, and sustained energy.
如果你想尝试Lingo，Lingo为美国的Huberman播客听众提供四周期间10%的折扣。
If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman podcast listeners in The US 10% off a four week Lingo plan.
条款和条件适用。
Terms and conditions apply.
访问 hellolingo.com/huberman 了解更多信息。
Visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.
Lingo血糖系统适用于18岁及以上、未使用胰岛素的用户。
The Lingo glucose system is for users 18 and older, not on insulin.
该系统不用于诊断疾病，包括糖尿病。
It is not intended for the diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes.
个体反应可能有所不同。
Individual responses may vary.
今天的节目还由Juve赞助。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Juve.
Juve生产医用级红光疗法设备。
Juve makes medical grade red light therapy devices.
现在，如果有一件事是我在这档播客中一贯强调的，那就是光线对我们生理和健康产生的巨大影响。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health.
除了我在这档播客中多次谈到的阳光之外，红光、近红外光和红外光已被明确证明能对细胞和器官健康的多个方面产生积极影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near infrared, and infrared light have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health.
这些影响包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康、促进伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减轻疼痛和炎症、增强线粒体功能，甚至提升视力。
These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improvements in vision.
如今市面上有很多红光设备，但JuvLites与众不同的地方，也是我首选它的原因，在于它使用了经过临床验证的波长。
Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there, but what sets JuvLites apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths.
也就是说，它们结合使用特定的红光、近红外光和红外光波长，以触发最佳的细胞适应反应。
Meaning they use the specific wavelengths of red light, near infrared and infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
我个人每周使用Juve全身面板三到四次，每次通常持续十分钟到二十分钟。
Personally, I use the Juve whole body panel about three to four times a week, usually for about ten to twenty minutes per session.
我还在家和旅行时使用Juve手持光疗仪。
And I use the Juve handheld light both at home and when I travel.
如果您想尝试Juve，他们为本播客的听众提供最高400美元的折扣，适用于部分产品。
If you would like to try Juve, they're offering up to $400 off select products for listeners of this podcast.
要了解更多信息，请访问Juve的官网：joovv.com/huberman。
To learn more, visit Juve spelled joovv.com/huberman.
再次提醒，网址是joovv.com/huberman。
Again, that's joovv.com/huberman.
你刚说到压力耐受力下降时，我脑子里立刻响起了网上那些声音：‘所以我们的意思就是把情绪搁置一边？’
The moment you said that we're seeing a reduction in distress tolerance, I heard in my head voices on the internet saying, oh, so we're just supposed to push our feelings aside?
难道我们就该接受所有发生在我们身上的事吗？
Like, we're just supposed to accept everything that happens to us?
我们是不是就该……你知道的？
We're supposed to you know?
当然，我实际上并不这么认为，但我能稍微理解这种想法。
And and, of course, I don't actually believe that, but I can empathize a bit with that with that notion.
对吧？
Right?
就像这些事情总是处于一个连续体上。
Like there's these things are always on a continuum.
这是一种拉扯的关系。
It's a it's a push pull.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，我本来想谈谈为你设定的标准。
I mean, was gonna raise the same thing around the standards that were set for you.
有些人在成长过程中被父母、老师或教练设定了很高的标准，他们可能会因此认为：哦，这意味着我非常有能力。
Some people who grew up with very high standards set for them by parents, teachers, or coaches might internalize that as, oh, that must mean I'm very capable.
事实上，在我最喜欢的一本书《最后的演讲》中，兰迪·波许提到他曾在卡内基梅隆大学担任计算机科学家。
In fact, in one of my favorite books, the last lecture by Randy Posh, he talks about he was a computer scientist at Carnegie Mellon.
他最终去世了。
He eventually died.
他发表了这场最后的演讲，这是一场令人惊叹的演讲。
He gave this last lecture, which is an incredible lecture.
他说，当你的父母、教练和老师不再推动你时，你就该担心了，因为他们已经对你放弃希望了。
And he he said the moment that your parents, coaches, and teachers stop pushing you is the moment you should worry because they've given up on you.
如果你被推动，说明别人相信你，相信你有可能真正取得一些成就。
You if you're pushed, people believe in you that there's a chance you might actually accomplish something.
他们相信你。
They believe in you.
但你也可能将这种压力内化为不堪重负。
But you could also internalize it as overwhelm.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为，关于压力承受力这个概念，究竟什么是应有的标准？
Like and so I think this notion of distress tolerance, like, what are what are the standards?
对于承受压力、表现水平，以及在所谓‘尊重自己感受’的同时，成为一个所谓‘社会功能正常’的人，标准是什么？
What are the standards for distress tolerance, for performance, for being a, quote, unquote, functional member of society while also, quote, unquote, honoring one's feelings about feeling one feelings.
我认为，没有人能提供一条如何应对这种情况的路线图。
There's there's no road map, I believe, to how to navigate that.
你说过，没有路线图。
What you said, there is no road map.
这确实是对的，但同时也是错的。
That happens to be true, and it happens to be wrong.
我知道这听起来很混乱，让我来解释一下。
So I know that's confusing, so let me explain.
首先，你要理解这一点。
So here's the first thing to understand.
我们收集信息的方式——这就是我热爱当临床医生的原因。
The way that we collect information this is why I love being a clinician.
就像，你提到过最后一场讲座。
So, like, you know, you you talked about the last lecture.
所以这个人说，如果别人不逼你，那就意味着他们不在乎你。
So this person was saying if people don't push you, that means that they don't, you know, care about you.
他们对你没有投入。
They're not invested in you.
你放弃一个人的那一刻，就是你不再逼迫他的那一刻。
They don't the moment that you give up on someone is the moment that you stop pushing them.
对吧？
Right?
这听起来很有道理。
Makes perfect sense.
但也有一些人被逼到极限，最终在压力下崩溃了。
And then there are also people who've been pushed to the point where they, like, crack under pressure.
这种情况其实更常见。
That's actually way more common.
所以总的来说，压力就像生物学中的其他部分一样，如果我对某个关节或软组织施加压力，我们就会形成茧。
And so so generally speaking, pressure, you know, just like any other part of biology, if I exert pressure on some part on some joint, on some part of soft tissue, we'll develop a callus.
它会变得坚韧。
It'll become tough.
所以这就是为什么没有现成路线图的原因，因为每个人都不一样。
So this is where the the the reason there's no road map is because people aren't the same.
对吧？
Right?
我们都有独特的基因。
So we all have unique genetics.
我们都有独特的经历。
We all have unique experiences.
我们都有独特的内心对话。
We all have a unique internal dialogue.
因此，人格的全部意义就在于此，我们可以用专业术语来定义人格：它就是你解读信息的方式、你感知世界的方式、你的内在反应以及你所采取的行为。
And so the whole point of personality, and we can define personality, like, by the technical terms, which is it is the way that you interpret information, the way you perceive the world, your internal reactions, and the behaviors that you engage in.
所以，你完全可以想象，两个完全不同的人处于完全相同的情境中。
So you can take literally, you know, two different human beings in the exact same situation.
我曾与几位经历过种族灭绝冲突的幸存者合作过。
I've worked with a couple of survivors of, like, genocidal conflicts.
而真正有趣的是，并不是每个人都会患上创伤后应激障碍，这真的很奇怪。
And the really interesting thing about that is not everybody gets PTSD, which is, like, really weird.
对吧？
Right?
如果你想象一下，这是一场种族灭绝冲突的话。
Like, if you think about this is like a genocidal conflict.
所以有大量的人经历了完全相同的事情，但他们的反应却大不相同。
So we have tons of people who all experience the same thing, but their reactions to them are really different.
这正是当一名临床医生的有趣之处。
That's what's fun about being a clinician.
我试图去寻找的，以及我学到的是，我一直在找一条路线图。
What I try to focus on and what I learned, I looked for a road map.
而我发现，并不存在什么路线图。
And what I found is that there's not a road map.
有成千上万种路线图。
There are thousands of road maps.
而这些路线图归结起来，我认为这正是我们这个信息主导的世界中一个巨大的问题。
And those road maps come down to and this is, I think, a huge problem in the information based world we live in.
所以每个人都有问题。
So everyone has problems.
对吧？
Right?
他们都在寻找解决方案，这很好。
And they're looking for solutions, which is great.
但最大的错误，我看到人们——尤其是高绩效者——犯的，是误诊的问题。
The problem the biggest mistake that I see peep people make, especially high performers, is a problem of misdiagnosis.
一个很好的例子是，我有一位病人来我的办公室，他在金融行业工作，就职于一家非常成功的公司，他进来时说：我有严重的焦虑。
So really good example of this, I had a a patient come into my office, worked in finance, was at a very, very successful firm, came in and was like, I have really bad anxiety.
真的开始影响到我了，我都吃不下饭了。
Like, it's really starting like, I can't eat.
我连觉都睡不着。
Like, I can't sleep.
我妻子非常担心我。
My wife is really worried about me.
所以他说，我真的有严重的焦虑。
So he's like, you know, I've got really bad anxiety.
于是我们开始聊这个，他说他害怕自己会被解雇。
So we start talking about it, and he's like, you know, I'm afraid I'm gonna get fired.
我们一起努力了大约十二个月，然后他意识到这个环境并不是让他开心的地方。
And we worked together for about twelve months, and then he realizes this environment is not where he's happy.
他之所以会被解雇，是因为他无法融入，于是他决定辞职。
And the reason he's gonna get fired is because he doesn't fit in, and he decides to quit.
有趣的是，如果我们只是解决了表面问题，让他的焦虑消失，他就会继续留在一个不健康的状态中。
So what's really interesting is that if we had just solved that, if we'd made his anxiety go away, he would have perpetuated in an unhealthy system.
这正是我们在谈论情绪时容易忘记的事情。
And and this is the thing that I think we forget when we're talking about our emotions.
比如，安德鲁，焦虑来自大脑的哪个部分？
Like, Andrew, which part of the brain does anxiety come from?
这是一种涉及广泛回路的现象。
It's a circuit wide phenomenon.
当然。
Sure.
如果我们得教的话，该怎么教呢？
If we had how is it taught?
如果你要给一个修读本科神经科学课程的学生讲课，也许你不会这样教，但如果你必须把它定位到某个具体部位，你会定位到哪里？
If you had to teach someone who's taking an undergraduate neuroscience class, and maybe you wouldn't teach it this way, but if you had to localize it to somewhere, where would you localize it?
一个结构？
One structure?
是的。
Yeah.
一个结构。
One structure.
每个人都会说杏仁核。
Everyone would say amygdala.
我给医学生讲授神经解剖学。
I teach neuroanatomy to medical students.
所以是对的。
So Right.
但我直到最近才这么认为。
Or I didn't till very recently.
所以我完全认同边缘系统作为一个整体。
So I'm totally with the limbic limbic system as a whole.
对吧？
Right?
但杏仁核。
But the amygdala.
当然。
Sure.
有趣的是，鳄鱼也有杏仁核。
And the really interesting thing is, like, crocodiles have amygdalas.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们有时会忘记，这些负面情绪实际上对我们非常重要。
So so we sometimes forget that these negative emotions are actually really important for us.
它们对我们其实很健康。
They're really healthy for us.
另一个非常有趣的例子是，我经常和很多网络游戏玩家打交道。
One other really ex interesting example of this is, you know, I work with a lot of, like, gamers on the Internet.
有时候他们会试图表现出求偶行为，结果让人感到不适。
So sometimes they'll try to engage in mating behaviors, and and they'll creep people out.
我意识到的一件非常有趣的事是，尴尬是避免让人感到不适的最好方式。
And one of the really interesting things that I I realized is embarrassment is the best way to not creep someone out.
所以，如果我侵犯了你的界限，然后表现出尴尬，这会向你传达我意识到自己做错了事。
So if I violate one of your boundaries and then I express embarrassment, that signals to you that I realize I did something wrong.
所以，如果我侵犯了你的界限，然后表现出尴尬，这是一种非常重要的共情信号。
So if I violate one of your boundaries and then I express embarrassment, that's a really important empathic signal.
而现在，互联网上充斥着各种内容，告诉人们要始终保持自信。
And now we have all of this, like, content on the Internet telling people to be relentlessly confident.
当他们变得极度自信时，就不再表现出尴尬了。
And when they become relentlessly confident, they no longer express embarrassment.
尴尬是一种非常重要的信号。
Embarrassment is a really important signal to send.
在你举的例子中，很明显有人侵犯了别人的界限。
In the example you gave, it's very clear that somebody violated somebody's boundary.
他们感到了尴尬。
They felt embarrassment.
表现出尴尬说明他们具备某种共情能力或意识，这让他们可能显得不那么令人不适，也更安全一些。
Showing that embarrassment shows that they have some sort of empathic attunement or awareness that makes them perhaps a little less creepy and a little bit safer.
是的
Yep.
而如果他们只是继续往前走的话。
As opposed to if they just kept going However, forward.
如果情况比较模糊，比如说他们做了一些暧昧的举动，但并不清楚具体是什么。
If it was a bit vague, like let's say that they did something of a flirtation and it wasn't really clear what it was.
另一方说：嘿。
And the other person said, hey.
这让我感觉不舒服。
Like, that doesn't feel good to me.
然后他们表现得非常尴尬。
And then they acted very embarrassed.
而那个说感觉不舒服的人很自然地会想：哦，那一定真的很糟糕。
And the person who said it didn't feel good to them would quite understandably think, oh, it must have been really bad.
对吧？
Right?
很多时候，这些动态是微妙的，人们并不清楚在极端情况下自己应该如何感受。
Oftentimes, the dynamics are subtle where people don't really know how they should feel about something at the extremes we know.
所以我在
So I'm
让我们倒着拆解俄罗斯套娃吧，因为我刚才说得太乱了。
gonna reverse Russian doll us because I I was all over the place.
你之前问过关于路线图的事。
So you asked about a road map.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后我举了焦虑的例子。
Then I gave the example of anxiety.
接着我又举了尴尬这种情绪作为另一个有帮助的例子。
Then I gave the example of of embarrassment as another emotion that's helpful.
而你现在在提问，所以我们倒着来。
And you're now you're asking a question, so we're gonna do it in reverse order.
当然。
Sure.
但我还想回到那个路线图，因为我觉得这是个很棒的问题。
But I wanna get back to that road map because I think it's a beautiful question.
我把它记下来了。
I wrote it down.
我们没忘记。
We haven't forgotten.
太好了。
Great.
我们来谈谈那些模糊的互动吧。
Let's talk about the ambiguous interactions.
这太有趣了。
This is fascinating.
我看过一个非常有趣的研究，当两个人在调情并被录像时，中立的观察者只有大约30%的时间能准确识别出他们在调情。
So I I saw a really cool study where when two people are flirting and that's taped and a neutral observer is watching it, they accurately detect flirting only about 30 of the time.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
不同的研究显示，准确率在百分之二十四到四十二之间。
Different studies show twenty four to forty two percent.
你说模糊性是个问题。
You're saying ambiguity is a problem.
不是。
No.
模糊性恰恰是应该发生的事情。
Ambiguity is is exactly what's supposed to happen.
如果你想想 flirting 是什么，flirting 就是一种保留合理否认空间的方式。
So if you think about what flirting is, flirting is a way to preserve plausible deniability.
这是一种让你感到安全的方式。
It's a way to make you feel safe.
对吧？
Right?
所以，如果我真的是安德鲁，我真的对你的身体感兴趣，老兄。
So if I if I am really Andrew, I'm really interested in your body, bro.
但如果我这么说，除非你也能回应这种氛围，否则就不会感到安全。
But if I say that, it it's it's you know, unless you are matching that energy, it's not gonna be safe.
这不会是好事。
It's not gonna be good.
这会毁掉我们的关系。
It'll ruin our relationship.
所以，调情的本质就是被误解。
So flirting by nature is supposed to be missed.
所以这是另一个你点头说‘是的’的情况。
So this is another thing where you're saying, like, yes.
这里存在模糊性。
There's ambiguity.
它可能被这样理解，也可能被那样理解。
It could be interpreted this way, and it could be interpreted this way.
这并不是坏事。
That's not bad.
这很好。
That's good.
这正是人类实际互动的方式。
That's that's how human beings actually interact.
所以温尼科特很好地描述了这一点，因为调情是一种游戏形式。
So Winnicott, you know, described this beautifully because flirting is a form of play.
这正是它的本质。
That's literally what it is.
而游戏关乎一个潜在空间。
And play is about a potential space.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当我和女儿玩娃娃时，游戏没有固定规则，而关键就在于它不该被定义。
When I'm playing, like, dolls with my daughter, it's not defined, and the whole point is for it to be not defined.
在这种缺乏明确界定的情况下，如今大家似乎都出现了社交技能退化，因此，我们大脑中解读语调、肢体语言等能力的部分正在减弱，我们正看到注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）的增加，每个人也主观上觉得自己像是自闭症患者。
So in that absence of definition, which now everyone is sort of like we're seeing a social skills atrophy, so, you know, the the parts of our brain that interpret tone, body language, things like that, like, people are are becoming like you know, we're seeing a rise of, like, ADHD, everyone also feels subjectively like they're autistic.
这是因为他们在失去某种程度的社交技能，因为我们一直在发短信交流。
It's because they're they're losing some degree of social skills because we text back and forth.
我们的大脑，我们的枕叶皮层，无法解读他人面部表情的视觉信息。
And our brains don't our our occipital cortex is not interpreting visual information of people's facial expressions.
因此，大脑的这一部分，实际上会逐渐变得不活跃。
So that part of our brain, like, literally kinda shuts off.
所以人们在面对模糊性时遇到了很大困难。
So people are having a lot of difficulty with ambiguity.
人们常说，哦，这个人发出了矛盾的信号。
You know, people are saying like, oh, this person is sending mixed signals.
这正是重点所在。
Like, that's the point.
在一段关系中，你一定会遇到矛盾的信号。
In a relationship, you are going to have mixed signals.
在一段友谊中，你也会遇到矛盾的信号。
In a friendship, you will have mixed signals.
我们每个人内心都存在矛盾。
We all have ambivalence within us.
我想在午餐时吃健康低脂的蛋白质，但同时也想吃油炸的蛋白质。
I I wanna eat a healthy lean protein during lunch, and I also wanna eat a fried protein during lunch.
对吧？
Right?
所以，模糊性其实并不需要避免。
So ambiguity is actually not something to be avoided.
真正有趣的是，另一个跨诊断因素，非常重要的一点，就是对不确定性的不容忍。
The really interesting thing, another transdiagnostic factor, really important one, the intolerance of uncertainty.
能够容忍不确定性的个体，心理健康状况更好，更具韧性，生活质量也更高。
So human beings who are capable of tolerating uncertainty, better mental health outcomes, more resilient, improved quality of life.
对吧？
Right?
所以每个人都需要明确的答案。
So everyone needs defined answers.
所以我会先停一下，来回应你提到的调情例子，但你说得非常对。
So I'll pause there for a moment just to address your flirtation example, but you're spot on.
我们能分辨出这些信号，嗯。
We can tell what the signals are Mhmm.
在两端都是如此。
At either end.
人际互动的意义就在于我们可以相互适应。
The point of human interaction is that way we can adapt to each other.
你知道的吧？
You know?
如果我伸手环住你，你会怎么回应？
If I put my arm around you, then how do you respond to that?
你是会起身去洗手间，还是会靠过来？
Do you get up and go to the bathroom, or do you lean in?
这些就是人类互动真正发生的方式。
So these are how human like, these are how how human interactions actually happen.
有很多来回互动。
There's a lot of back and forth.
很有趣。
Fascinating.
很多年轻男性跟我谈论他们在约会中的困境。
A lot of younger guys talk to me about their challenges in the dating scene.
他们似乎面临的一个问题是，觉得约会中发生的一切都会被上传到互联网上。
And one of the things that they seem very challenged with is the fact that they feel like whatever happens on a date is shared on the internet.
是的。
Yeah.
当然，这与性侵或他们行为极度不当无关，而是指他们被评价为好或坏的吻技。
And this is of course not related to, you know, assault or or them acting highly inappropriate or, you know, this is really like they're reported as a good or bad kisser.
他们被评价为是否会付账。
They're reported as a they pay or they don't pay.
因此，我认为对他们来说，探索模糊性的空间——这是我听到的——感觉非常危险。
And so I think the room to explore ambiguity to them, this is what I hear, feels very dangerous.
这感觉像是一条滑坡之路
It feels like a slippery slope
是的
Yeah.
他们必须在每一个方面都表现完美。
Where they have to perform perfectly on every measure.
我相信女性也有同样的感受。
And I'm sure women feel the same way.
对吧？
Right?
我只是听到更多男性这么说。
I just hear from more more men.
是的
Yeah.
这确实非常棘手。
It's it's very tricky.
所以我认为，我们在约会世界中看到的，我想这就是我们正在讨论的内容。
So I I think what we're seeing in in the dating world, and and I guess we're this is what we're talking about.
也许这让我特别关注，因为我刚做了一系列相关内容。
Maybe it's top of mind for me because I just did a bunch of content on it.
但约会世界中有趣的是，我们现在把互联网纳入了考量，对吧？这一点你之前也提到过。
But so what's interesting in the dating world is that now we're sort of adding the Internet to the equation, right, which you'd sort sort of talked about.
所以让我们先来理解一下互联网的几个特点。
So let's just understand a couple of things about the Internet.
首先，从我的角度来看——作为一名临床工作者，我阅读了大约200篇关于互联网如何影响我们大脑和心理的论文。
So the first is what the Internet, in my opinion this is sort of like a clinician's perspective having read about 200 papers on various aspects of how the Internet affects our brains and our psychology.
首先要明白的是，互联网倾向于筛选出情绪激动的内容。
First thing to understand is that the Internet selects for emotional activation.
在我看来，这甚至不只是多巴胺的问题。
It's not even dopamine, in my opinion.
如果你看一下互联网，它远不止是娱乐和游戏那么简单。
So if you look at, like, Internet, right, so it's not just fun and games.
实际上，最具吸引力的内容是情感上令人投入的。
Actually, the most engaging content is emotionally engaging.
唤起。
Arousal.
唤起。
Arousal.
当然。
Absolutely.
肾上腺素。
Adrenaline.
另一个有趣的现象是，为了维持唤起状态，你需要情绪上的对立。
And then the other interesting thing is that in order to maintain arousal, you need a dichotomy of emotions.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我得吓你一跳，然后让你生气，接着给你看一只猫的视频，再吓你一次，然后告诉你人工智能就要抢走你的工作，接着我又想给你看一个宝宝在生日派对上做出最可爱举动的视频。
So I need to scare you, and then I need to make you angry, and then I need to show you a cat video, and then I need to scare you again, and then I need to tell you how AI is gonna steal your job, and then I wanna show you this birthday party where this baby did the cutest thing.
这正是他们维持参与度的真正方式。
So this is literally how it they maintain engagement.
这非常有趣的是，当我们边缘系统一遍又一遍地高度活跃时，这是对我们认知资源最大的消耗之一。
And so what's really interesting about this is as our as our limbic system is, like, hyperactive over and over and over again, that's one of the biggest cognitive drains that we have.
我认为，最消耗我们意志力的三件事是：压抑情绪、抑制情绪，甚至仅仅是感受情绪，都会让人精疲力尽。
So, like, I think the top three cognitive the things that drain our willpower the most, suppressing emotion, repressing emotion, even just feeling emotion is, like, very exhausting.
互联网正在筛选出最具情感冲击力的内容。
The Internet is selecting for the most emotionally activating things.
那么，哪些推文会获得互动呢？
So who which tweets get engaged with?
那些最具两极分化性质的推文。
The ones that are the most polarizing.
于是当人们约会时，问题就出现了，真正的悲剧在于，人们会认为：如果我说错了话，这件事就会被发到网上。
So then what happens is is people are dating, and now you've got a problem because, and here's the real tragedy, is people will have a perception that if I don't say the right thing, this will get posted online.
但大多数时候，并不会发生这种情况。
That is not what happens most of the time.
对吧？
Right?
但这就是我们人类存在某些认知偏见的地方，比如在医学院我们学到的：你一旦漏诊了一次癌症，并不意味着之后每个病人都有癌症。
But this is where we as human beings have certain cognitive biases where the extreme example like, we get trained in this in medical school is, you know, once you miss a cancer diagnosis once, it doesn't mean that every patient after that has cancer.
但大脑的设计就是这样。
But that's what the brain is designed to do.
我们的大脑是为了生存而设计的，这意味着即使我们只在一家餐厅一次食物中毒，大脑也不会从概率角度看待这件事。
Our brain is designed for survival, which means that if we get food poisoning from a restaurant even once, our brain doesn't look at that probabilistically.
它会记住最糟糕的例子，而我们必须以此为依据来指导行为。
It takes the worst examples, and that's what we have to base our behavior on.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我在工作中，如果我对同事有好感，即使有90%的可能性，只要我表达一点浪漫兴趣，我都会没事，但我不能基于这个概率制定策略。
Like, if I'm at work and I wanna if I'm attracted to a coworker, even though there's a 90% chance that if I express some romantic interest in them, I'm gonna be fine, I can't make a strategy based on that.
我必须以最坏的结果为依据来制定我的策略。
I have to base my strategy on the worst possible outcome.
我们在约会中看到的就是这种情况。
That's what we're seeing in dating.
你说压抑情绪在认知上会让人精疲力尽。
You said that suppressing emotion is cognitively draining.
我理解得对吗？持续处于各种情绪的兴奋状态也同样会消耗认知资源？
Did I also understand correctly that being in constant arousal through different emotions is also cognitively draining?
我不确定是否该用‘认知’这个词，但确实非常耗神。
I don't know if I would use the word cognitive there, but it's absolutely draining.
对吧？
Right?
所以长期处于兴奋状态，这就是我说的认知消耗——我指的是关于前扣带回皮层的一篇论文。
So periods of extended arousal, and this is where, like, I'm when I mean cognitive draining, I'm referring to a, you know, paper that's looking at the anterior cingulate cortex.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当我们的前扣带回皮层和额叶抑制边缘系统时，这种状态非常消耗能量。
So I and that's where when the anterior cingulate cortex and your frontal lobes are suppressing your limbic system, that's very draining.
但我认为，高水平的唤醒状态——比如通过网状激活系统之类的方式，情绪上一直处于高度活跃状态，会过度激活边缘系统，这绝对是令人精疲力尽的，这就是我想用的词。
But I think high levels of arousal, right, through the reticular activating formation and and things like that, just being on emotionally, hyperactivation of your limbic system is absolutely exhausting is the word that I would use.
你提到过，承受痛苦的能力是一项宝贵的技能。
You mentioned distress tolerance is a valuable skill to have.
我觉得可以说：好吧，承受痛苦的能力，我完全同意。
It feels appropriate to say, okay, distress tolerance, I totally agree.
能够在一定程度上承受痛苦很好，但这听起来在认知上和整体上都非常消耗精力。
Great to be able to tolerate distress to a point, but that sounds like it's very cognitively and generally draining.
那么，你会如何鼓励一个人培养健康的承受痛苦能力呢？
So how would you encourage someone to develop healthy levels of distress tolerance?
但如果这涉及持续压抑想要大喊或反应的冲动，听起来可能会变得非常不健康。
But if that involves constant suppression of an impulse to shout, to react, that sounds like it could get very unhealthy.
所以我知道我们还在这个话题上打转，但我想问，如果压抑或压制情绪反应对我们不好，那什么才是健康的承受痛苦能力呢？
So I realize we're sort of staying on this tangent, but I feel like what defines healthy distress tolerance if pushing back an emotional reaction or pushing down an emotional reaction is not good for us?
所以，承受痛苦的能力并不仅仅包括情绪压抑。
So distress tolerance doesn't only include emotional suppression.
对吧？
Right?
所以关于痛苦耐受力，真正有趣的是，其关键特征甚至不是压抑，而是接纳你的情绪。
So what's really interesting about distress tolerance is a key feature of distress tolerance is not even suppressing is the opposite, is accepting your emotions.
实际上是向前迈进
It's actually moving in
相反的方向。
the opposite direction.
感受你的情绪。
Feeling your feelings.
感受你的情绪。
Feeling your feelings.
对吧？
Right?
意识到你正在感受你的情绪。
Recognizing that you feel your feelings.
如果有人感到极度愤怒，他们想感受自己的情绪，该怎么办？
What if somebody feels extremely angry and they want to feel their feelings?
他们怎样做才是健康的表达方式？
What is a healthy way for them to do that?
有三点。
Three things.
是的。
Mhmm.
好的。
Okay.
如果你想学会控制情绪，我会说，关键是在情绪面前保持平静。
So if you want to learn how to control your emotions, you wanna be tranquil in the face of your emotions is what I would say.
你可以做三件事。
Three things you can do.
第一件事是给你的情绪命名。
The first thing is putting words to your emotion.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，此刻，如果你——我不知道这样说是否合理。
So the moment that so right now, if you I don't know if this kinda makes sense.
你越生气，你的杏仁核就越活跃，几乎压制了大脑的其他所有部分。
The more angry you are, right, the more your amygdala is, like, hyperactive, it is drowning out every other part of your brain.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以你首先要做的是，给情绪命名。
So the first thing that you have to do is put words to it.
当你给情绪命名时，你不能只说‘啊’。
And when you put words to it, you can't put words to ah.
那里没有一个词。
There's no word there.
所以，当你试图给情绪命名时，它就必须平静下来，这样你的语言中枢——布洛卡区等等——才能表达出来，你才能真正理解它。
So the moment that you try to put words to it, it has to calm down in order for your linguistic centers, Broca's area, all these in order for them to, like, articulate it, you have to understand it.
所以弗洛伊德早在一百多年前就明白了这一点，通过语言表达情绪具有强大的力量。
So Freud understood this, like, over a hundred years ago, and there's something powerful about processing emotions by putting them into words.
为了用语言表达出来，我们必须先让情绪平复一些。
In order to put words to it, we have to tone it down some.
所以这是第一步。
So that's the first thing.
但问题是，人们常常认为这已经足够了。
The problem is that people oftentimes think that that is sufficient.
对吧？
Right?
所以人们会说：写日记、去看治疗师、谈谈你的感受。
So people will say journal, go see a therapist, and talk about your feelings.
天啊，我遇到过太多这样的情况了，比如我有个病人来就诊，我可以讲个故事吗？
Man, the number of times that I've had like, I had this patient who came in, if I can tell a story.
请说。
Please.
你知道吧？
You know?
所以，我当时是第三年的住院医师。
And so, like, I was a third year resident.
我已经做了大约一百到两百小时的心理治疗了。
I'd done maybe, like, a hundred hours or two hundred hours of psychotherapy.
所以有个人来找我。
So I I I had a guy come in.
他在诊所待了八年，患有抑郁症，是个四十多岁的男人。
He'd been in the clinic for eight years, had depression, was a dude in his forties.
他每天来都会告诉我他为什么难过。
He came in, he would tell me about why he was sad every day.
每周他都会来一次。
Like, every week he'd come in.
他说：我工作上被记过处分了。
He's like, I got I got written up at work.
人们抱怨我冲他们发脾气。
People are complaining because I snapped at them.
你知道吗，有个病人抱怨我没给他们苯二氮䓬类药物。
You know, one of the patients is complaining because I didn't give them benzos.
所以他每周都会来。
And so he'd come in every every week.
他会跟我讲他为什么感到沮丧。
He'd talk about why he was depressed.
我会说：‘兄弟，你为啥这么沮丧啊？’
I'd be like, why are you depressed, bro?
然后他会给我讲一些他生活中发生的糟糕事情。
And he'd like, tell me some story about something bad that happened in his life.
我们就这样持续了六个月。
And then we did this for six months.
我当时其实并不懂，因为我还在学习心理治疗。
And, like, I didn't know because I'm, like, learning psychotherapy.
对吧？
Right?
所以呢，我本该支持他，本该说：‘哦，这对你来说一定很难吧。’
So I'm, like, I'm supposed to be supportive, and I'm supposed to be like, okay, like, that must be hard for you.
这让你有什么感受？
How does that make you feel?
这对你来说一定很难吧。
That must be so hard for you.
这让你有什么感受？
How does that make you feel?
这对你来说一定很难吧。
That must be so hard for you.
我们就这样反复折腾了六个月。
We do this dance for, like, six months.
然后有一天，他来了，我有点不耐烦了。
Then one day he comes in, and I'm kinda getting frustrated.
我跟他说，嘿。
I'm like, hey.
这有帮助吗？
Is this helping?
他问我，你这话是什么意思，有帮助？
And he's like, what do you mean is it helping?
我问，这有帮助吗？
I'm like, is it helping?
你觉得自己比六个月前刚来的时候好一点了吗？
Do you feel any better than when you came in six months ago?
他却说，我以为这就是我们该做的。
And he's like, I thought this was what we're supposed to do.
我只是每周来一趟而已。
I'm just supposed to come in every week.
我告诉你我有多难过，然后你就说这一定很难受，这不就是心理治疗该做的吗？
I tell you about how I'm sad, and then you tell me it must be like, isn't that what psychotherapy is?
对我来说，这是一个巨大的顿悟时刻，因为谈论你的感受——尤其是对男性而言——往往远远不够。
It was a huge light bulb moment for me because talking about your feelings, especially for men, is not enough much of the time.
这其中有着令人着迷的神经科学和内分泌学原理。
Fascinating neuroscience and endocrinology behind that.
给这些感受命名，只是第一步。
Putting words to it is just step one.
第二点，培养更多的情绪是一种非常重要的能力。
Second thing, this is a really important skill, cultivating additional emotions.
如果你观察那些有韧性的人都会发现，深入他们的内心对话，你会注意到他们做了一些其他有趣的事情。
So if you look at people who are resilient, if you tunnel down into the internal dialogue of people who are resilient, you'll notice that they do something else some some interesting things.
我的一些病人病情非常严重，而我花数周时间试图对他们做的就是：这件事发生了，我感到无比羞愧。
So my patients who are very severely ill, right, and literally what I try to do with them over the course of weeks is this thing happened, and I feel overwhelming shame.
当你开始培养更多的情绪时，比如我被男朋友或女朋友甩了。
The moment that you start cultivating additional emotion so I I've been dumped by my boyfriend or my girlfriend.
我感到非常、非常沮丧。
I'm really, really depressed.
我这一生都要一个人了。
I'm gonna be alone for the rest of my life.
他们开始往最坏处想。
They start to catastrophize.
他们充满了负面情绪。
They have a lot of negative emotion.
在那一刻，很容易就忘了，好吧。
And it's really easy in that moment to forget that, okay.
在情况变糟之前，我和这个人有过三年美好的经历。
I had three years of wonderful experiences with this person before things went downhill.
很容易就忘了所有积极的一面。
It's really easy to forget all of the positives.
很容易意识到，三年的美好经历，再加上一年的有毒关系，实际上会保护你免受下一段有毒关系的伤害。
It's really easy to realize that three years of experience followed by, let's say, one year of a toxic relationship is gonna actually protect you from the next toxic relationship.
因此，培养更多的情绪是情商中非常重要的一部分。
So cultivating additional emotions is a huge fundamental part of EQ.
而且你不能只是容忍或压抑它。
And it's you don't just have to tolerate it or suppress it.
这些是你能做的其他事情。
These are the additional things that you can do.
这非常重要。
And this is really important.
当你感到负面情绪时，不仅仅是培养积极情绪。
It's not just cultivating positive emotions when you're feeling negative emotions.
反过来也是如此。
It's the other way around as well.
我见过更多关系因为陷入爱河而破裂，而不是其他任何事情，你只是爱上了错误的人。
I've seen more relationships ruined by falling in love than anything else, and you just fall in love with the wrong person.
你正在一段关系中，却爱上了别人。
You're in a relationship, and you fall in love with somebody else.
我接触过的很多人，你知道，他们有一个很棒的商业点子，对此充满激情，然后说：我要创办一家人工智能公司。
So many people I've worked with, you know, I have this great business idea, and I get so excited about it, and they're like, I'm gonna start this AI company.
这正是你真正需要培养负面情绪的时候。
That's the time that you actually wanna cultivate negative emotion.
稍微培养一点焦虑感。
Cultivate a little bit of anxiety.
可能会出什么问题？
What could go wrong?
确保你问自己这个问题。
Make sure you ask yourself that question.
比如在成瘾精神病学中，我们曾有一种很酷的技术，用来帮助人们，虽然现在效果没那么好了，但我们还是会告诉人们：把剧情演到结局。
Like literally in addiction psychiatry, we we have a cool technique that we use with people where it doesn't really work so much anymore, but we tell people to play the tape through to the end.
你现在非常兴奋，想做这件事，但请把剧情演到结局。
You're really excited right now and you wanna do this thing, but play the tape through the end.
可能发生的所有负面情况是什么？
What are all of the negative things that could happen?
因此，这种认知灵活性和情绪灵活性非常重要。
So that cognitive flexibility, that emotional flexibility is really important.
我们必须理解情绪是什么。
We have to understand what emotions are.
很多时候，网上流行一种说法，比如‘感受你的情绪’。
So a lot of times, you know, this is going around on the Internet where, like, feel your feelings.
对吧？
Right?
比如，我要真实地、诚实地面对我的情绪，今天我就要坦率地说：你真是个混蛋，安德鲁，这就是我的真实想法。
Like, I'm just gonna authentically I'm gonna be authentic with my feelings today, which means that you're an asshole, Andrew, and I'm just this is my truth.
对吧？
Right?
于是我们开始把‘表达真实想法’当作当混蛋的借口。
So we've started, like, speaking our truths as excuses to being assholes.
这正是网上发生的事。
Like, that's what's happening on the Internet.
现实关系中也是如此，因为人们在看社交媒体，觉得‘我应该表达我的真实想法’。
It's what's happening in in real relationships because people are watching social media, and they're like, I should speak my truth.
对吧？
Right?
所以另一件非常重要的事情是，要明白情绪不是行为。
So the other thing that's really important is to understand that an emotion is not a behavior.
从进化角度来看，情绪本质上是信息和动力，这一点你可能比我更清楚。
An emotion is literally from an evolutionary perspective, and you may know this better than I do, is information and is motivation.
这就是情绪存在的目的。
That's what emotions are for.
所以当你感到恐惧时，比如半夜独自去厕所，那种恐惧感，所有这些感官输入都在你无法有意识察觉的大脑区域中被处理。
So when you feel fear, when you're walking outside, going to the walking to the outhouse in the middle of the night and you feel fear, that is all this all this sensory input is being processed in parts of your brain that you have no conscious awareness of.
最先发生的是，你在清楚自己究竟害怕什么之前，就已经先感受到了情绪。
The first thing that happens is that you feel emotion before you have any logical idea of what are you even scared of.
这是你的大脑在向你传递信息。
That is your brain telling you something.
另一点是，情绪也是一种动力。
The other thing is its motivation.
对吧？
Right?
我想逃跑。
I feel like running away.
而不幸的是，我们的大脑是在一个我们早已不再生活的世界中进化出来的。
And this is where, unfortunately, our brain evolved for a world that we don't live in anymore.
所以，当我过去因为被老虎追捕而感到恐惧时，恐惧促使我们产生的自然冲动，在你需要支付月底房租、偿还房贷或在绩效评估中表现优异时，就完全不管用了。
So, you know, back when I used to feel fear because I was being hunted by a tiger, the natural impulses that our fear encourage us to do don't work when you've got to pay rent at the end of the month or you've gotta pay your mortgage or you've gotta do well on your performance review.
因此，我们常常误以为真实地感受情绪就意味着让情绪主导一切。
So oftentimes, what we do is we think that feeling authentically means letting our emotion run the show.
我们不希望那样做。
We don't wanna do that.
我们应当问自己：这种情绪在告诉我什么？
We wanna ask ourselves, what is this emotion telling me?
我为什么感到恐惧？
Why do I feel fear?
我到底在怕什么？
What am I, you know, what am I afraid of?
而且我甚至觉得‘我怕什么’这个问题并不对。
And I don't even think what am I afraid of is the right question.
这太像自助书籍里的说法了。
It's way too, like, self help.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这对我来说太像心理治疗了。
It's it's way too psychotherapy for me.
我的恐惧想告诉我什么？
It's what is my fear telling me?
它在传递什么信息和动力？
What is the information and motivation that it's signaling?
然后，它想让我做什么？
And then what is it what is it telling me to do?
就像你那位总是感到极度焦虑的客户。
Like your client who was feeling very anxious all the time.
通过探索这种情绪，最终似乎他意识到这份工作并不适合他。
By exploring that emotion, eventually, it sounds like, came to the understanding that it wasn't the job for him.
完美。
Perfect.
对吧？
Right?
这根本不是他该做的，所以他才那么拼命。
That this is not the and and so he's trying so hard.
对吧？
Right?
所以焦虑感就像紧紧抓住他的工作不放。
So the anxiety is, like, clinging on to his job.
但事实上，一旦你理解了这种情绪，它实际上是在引导你离开。
But, actually, once you understand the emotion, it's actually walking away.
一旦你以这种方式掌握了情绪，我认为‘掌握’这个词可能更合适，它会让生活变得好很多。
And so once you have mastery over your emotions in this way, and I think mastery is maybe a better word, it makes life, like, so much better.
对吧？
Right?
当我们谈到痛苦耐受力时，说的就是这个意思。
That that's when we talk about distress tolerance, like, that's what I'm talking about.
这不仅仅是压抑。
It's not just suppression.
太棒了。
Wonderful.
我非常感谢你的回答。
I I so appreciate your answer.
你的回答非常全面、清晰，关于痛苦耐受力、为情绪命名、丰富表达语言，以及探索相反的情境——包括正面情绪的负面方面和负面情绪的正面方面。
The thoroughness of it, the clarity of it, distress tolerances, putting words to emotion, adding additional language to it, and exploring the the reverse context, the the as well, the negative aspects of positive emotions, the positive aspects.
所以听起来，你是在扩展时间维度，思考这件事在过去的、现在的和未来的含义？
So it sounds like it's broadening the time domain, like thinking about this and going forward, what does this represent in the past, present and future?
然后认真思考这种情绪在传递什么信号。
And then really thinking about what the emotion is signaling.
对压力耐受力的这个描述真是太棒了，因为它也是可操作的。
What a beautiful description of distress tolerance because it's also operational.
人们可以将它付诸实践。
People can put this to to work.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这太棒了。
That's fantastic.
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If you're a regular listener of the Huberman Lab Podcast, you've no doubt heard me talk about the vitamin mineral probiotic drink AG1.
如果你还在犹豫要不要尝试，现在正是绝佳的时机。
And if you've been on the fence about it, now's an awesome time to give it a try.
在未来几周内，AG1将为你首次订阅赠送一套完整的营养补充剂套餐。
For the next few weeks, AG1 is giving away a full supplement package with your first subscription to AG1.
他们正在赠送一瓶维生素D3K2、一瓶Omega-3鱼油胶囊，以及新推出的睡眠配方AGZ的试用装，顺便说一下，这现在是我唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。
They're giving away a free bottle of vitamin D3K2, a bottle of omega-three fish oil capsules, and a sample pack of the new sleep formula AGZ, which by the way is now the only sleep supplement I take.
这太棒了。
It's fantastic.
服用AGZ后，我的睡眠质量好得不可思议。
My sleep on AGZ is out of this world good.
AGZ是一种饮品，因此无需服用大量药片。
AGZ is a drink, so it eliminates the need to take a lot of pills.
味道非常好。
It tastes great.
正如我所说，它让我睡得非常好，醒来时比以往任何时候都更精神焕发。
And like I said, it has me sleeping incredibly well, waking up more refreshed than ever.
我非常喜欢它。
I absolutely love it.
再次强调，这是限时优惠，请立即前往drinkag1.com/huberman注册参与。
Again, this is a limited time offer, so make sure to go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started today.
路线图。
The roadmap.
如果我们能回到路线图上。
If we could go back to the road map.
是的。
Yeah.
你能为我们详细说明一下，你认为在我们现在所处的这个极其复杂的环境中，应该如何规划前进的方向吗？
If you could spell out for for us, what do you think of as the road map to to navigate this very complex landscape that we exist in now?
好的。
Okay.
这可能关乎你与这个人的关系。
And this could be relationship with this person.
也可能是医生、上常春藤盟校还是成为艺术家，或者任何其他例子，我们需要区分哪些是别人希望你做的、期待你做的，哪些才是你内心真正想要的。
It could be be a doctor, go to an Ivy League school versus be an artist or, you know, any number of different examples where we have to make the distinction of what's wished for us and expected of us versus what is true to us on the inside.
这似乎对我来说是关键所在
That's that seems to be where to me where
好的。
the Okay.
生活的摩擦就存在于这里。
Where the friction of life exists.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
这无疑是生活中最有趣的问题，坦白说。
That's what the most interesting question in life, frankly.
你知道的。
You know?
让我确认一下我是否理解了你的问题。
Let me just make sure I understand your question.
生活的摩擦与喜悦在于，外部世界希望我去做所有这些事情。
The friction and joy of life is the rest of the world wants me to do all of these things.
但有时候，我内心并不想做这些事。
And sometimes this doesn't wanna do those things.
有时候我确实想做这些事。
Sometimes it does wanna do those things.
我什么时候该听从这种声音，什么时候又该听从其他所有声音呢？
When do I listen to this, and when do I listen to everything that?
是的。
Yes.
对吧？
Right?
好的。
Okay.
精彩的问题。
Beautiful question.
所以接下来我要稍微转向东方的智慧。
So this is where I'm gonna lean into the eastern stuff for a second.
我花了七年时间学习成为僧人。
So I spent seven years studying to become a monk.
然后我去上了医学院，成为了一名精神科医生。
And then I I went to medical school, and I became a psychiatrist.
在精神科培训期间，我经历了一件非常奇特的事，因为每个人都教我大脑是如何运作的。
And the really interesting I had a really weird experience of training in psychiatry because everyone was teaching me how the mind works.
明白吗？
Okay?
这可是哈佛医学院的优秀教师们教的。
And this is, like, good teachers at, like, the Harvard Medical School.
他们说，这是大脑的工作方式，这是潜意识，还有认知行为疗法等等。
And they're like, here's how the mind works, and this is what the subconscious is, and, like, there's cognitive behavioral therapy.
对吧？
Right?
比如，埃伦巴克教我们，思想、情绪和行为之间是相互关联的。
So, like, Ehrenback taught us that there's, like, thoughts, emotions, and behaviors, and all these things these things connect.
最让我本能反应的是，当别人告诉我事情是这样的时候，我总是觉得：不，不是这样的。
And the really fascinating thing, my most instinctive response when people would tell me how it is, is no, it's not.
在东方，他们对心灵有着完全不同的理解。
So in the East, they have a completely different conception of mind.
而西方对心灵的观念有一个大问题。
And here's the big problem with the Western conception of mind.
你是个科学家。
You're a scientist.
对吧？
Right?
你是怎么了解一件事的，安德鲁？
How do you learn about something, Andrew?
你提出一个问题。
You have a question.
好的。
Okay.
很好。
Good.
你提出一个假设。
You pose a hypothesis.
很好。
Excellent.
你设计一个实验。
You design an experiment.
不错。
Good.
在这个过程中，你隔离变量。
Where you isolate variables.
好的。
Okay.
然后你要么反驳，要么在某种意义上支持你的假设。
And you either refute or you, in some sense, support your hypothesis.
好的。
Okay.
然后你设计另一个实验。
And then you design another experiment.
然后你提出另一个问题。
And you and ask another question.
你就一直这样继续下去。
You just you just keep going.
而且这是对的。
And true.
你获得终身教职，然后开始做播客。
You get tenure, and then you start a podcast.
太棒了。
Beautiful.
对吧？
Right?
所以，是的。
So so Yeah.
开玩笑的。
Just kidding.
不。
No.
不。
No.
所以，让我问你一个问题。
So so let me ask you this.
你如何研究心智？
How do you study the mind?
是的。
Yeah.
真正有趣的是这个。
Here's what's really interesting.
对吧？
Right?
所以，真正有趣的是这一点。
So so here's what's really fascinating.
比如，我们有没有关于思想存在的科学证据？
Like, do we have any scientific evidence of the existence of thought?
我们可以把思想定义为某种模式的
We could define thoughts as some pattern of
网络活动。
network network activity.
活动。
Activity.
我的意思是，如果我们直接观察，根本没有任何仪器能检测到思想。
What I mean is, like, if we literally look at it, we have no instrument that can detect a thought.
没错。
That's right.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们没有任何证据。
So we have we have no proof.
我们无法测量思想。
We cannot measure a thought.
换句话说，这实际上是不可能的。
Like, it is, like, literally impossible.
我们可以测量大脑的血流。
We can measure blood flow to the brain.
我们可以测量大脑的电活动。
We can measure electrical activity in the brain.
我们可以诱发思想。
We can induce thoughts.
是的。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
我们可以做到这一点，但我们完全不知道思想是否存在。
We can we can do that, but we have we have no idea that a thought exists.
所以，精神病学很奇怪，因为医学和科学的其他所有领域，我们都能测量我们所研究的对象。
So, like, psychiatry is weird because every other part of medicine and science, we can measure what we are studying.
是的。
Mhmm.
但在精神病学中，我们做不到这一点。
In psychiatry, we can't do that.
于是弗洛伊德出现了，他做出了一个惊人的发现：当人类说话时，我们可以了解他们内心的一些东西。
So along came Freud, and he made a fascinating discovery, which is when a human being speaks, we understand something about what's in their mind.
而我们接受训练的全部原因，以及我们能够测量你思维的原因，就在于此。
And the whole reason we get trained and the reason that we we can measure mental we can meant measure your mind.
对吧？
Right?
因此，我们通过因素分析等方法验证了科学工具，比如贝克抑郁量表，它可以告诉你你有多抑郁。
So we have validated scientific instruments using things like factor analysis and stuff like that where we can use the Beck Depression Inventory, which will tell you how depressed you are.
我们有很好的方法来测量这些事物。
We have good ways to measure stuff.
所以精神病学中有很多科学成分。
So there's a lot of science in psychiatry.
但基本问题是，我们面临一个根本性难题。
The basic problem, though, is that we have a fundamental problem.
我们无法。
We cannot.
我们无法洞察一个人内心的想法，虽然我们能了解一个人的思维，却无法检测到思维本身。
We have no insight into what is in someone's oh, we have insight into someone's mind, but we can't detect the mind.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这是科学的一个根本性问题。
That is a fundamental problem with science.
明白吗？
Okay?
有趣的是。
Here's the cool thing.
我们没有对思维的科学测量方法，但作为人类，我们能够感知自己的思想。
We have no scientific measurement of thought, but we as human beings have measurement of thoughts.
我能否用任何科学仪器知道你在想什么？
Can I ever know what you are thinking using any instrument of science?
你是精神科医生，所以我本想说是的，但其实不是。
You're the psychiatrist, so I'm tempted to say yes, but no.
不是。
No.
对吧？
Right?
你能知道你在想什么吗？
Can you know what you're thinking?
我希望能这样，但我猜是肯定的。
I would like to think so, but I'm guessing Yes.
我猜我是说，我可以问自己脑子里在想什么，但我未必能用语言准确表达出来，捕捉到那些想法的全部内容
I'm guessing I mean, I I can ask myself what's going on in there, but I don't necessarily have the ability to put language to it in a way that captures what what
我在思考。
I'm thinking.
你有能力观察自己的想法。
Capable of observing your thoughts.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你有能力观察，而我没有能力观察你的想法。
You are capable of I'm not capable of observing your thoughts.
但你是否能察觉到所有的想法，无论对错，那是另一个问题。
But you can whether you detect all of them, whether they're right or wrong, that question is separate.
仅仅从基本概念来说，你可以测量一个轴突。
Just the fundamental idea of, like, you can measure an axon.
你可以察觉到自己的想法。
You can you can detect your thought.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们都以这种方式生活。
We all live in this way.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
这样我们之后可以探讨边缘情况。
So that we can get to the edge cases later.
这里有个有趣的地方。
So here's the cool thing.
当我去印度并学习了七年时，由内省传统发展出来的心理学，其基础是内在观察。
So when I went to India and I I studied for seven years, the difference between the psychology that was developed from the contemplative traditions is its its foundation is internal observation.
所以瑜伽修行者具备这种能力——我们其实都有，这不是什么特殊天赋，但他们对心智的理解基于自身的内观体验。
So yogis are capable we're all it's not like some special ability, but they base their theory of mind on what they could observe.
而在西方，我们并不具备这种途径。
Whereas in the West, that is not something we have access to.
因此，他们对心智的理论非常不同。
So their theory of mind is very different.
当我接受精神科医生训练时，人们总是说：‘这就是心智的工作方式。’
So when I was training to become a psychiatrist, people were like, this is how the mind works.
而我却说：‘不。’
And I'm like, no.
这并不对。
That's not true.
对吧？
Right?
还有另一种方式。
There is a different way.
所以这里有一个例子，可以帮我们理解这个路线图。
So here's one example getting to the road map.
所以我认为最大的不同在于自我。
So the biggest thing that I think is different is the ego.
在东方，他们有一个概念，认为我们心智中有一部分是自我。
So in the East, they have the concept of a part of our mind that is the ego.
而在西方，我们使用‘自我’这个词。
And in the West, we use the word ego.
弗洛伊德对此有某种定义。
Freud defined it in some way.
我们所有人都有一种对身份的直觉感受。
We all have this intuitive sense of identity.
但就像逻辑和情感以非常机械且明确的方式相互作用一样，西方的模型并未包含这一部分。
But in the same way that logic and emotions interact in a very mechanistic and defined way, in the West, our model does not include this piece.
而你所说的路线图，正是与这一部分相关的。
And the road map that you're talking about has to do with that piece.
所以如果世界其他地方因为事情变得复杂而...
So if the rest of the world because things get complicated.
对吧？
Right?
这正是对你来说如此令人兴奋又具有挑战性的原因。
That's why it's so exciting for you and so challenging.
当每个人都希望你成为某种样子时，事情就会变得复杂。
Things get complicated as everyone wants you to be something.
然后我们犯了一个大错误，那就是我们做了被称为‘内化’的事情。
And then we make a big mistake because we do this thing called internalize.
一旦你内化了，这种想法是来自外界，还是来自你自己？
And the moment that you internalize, now is it coming from the outside, or is it coming from you?
这是我被灌输后想要的，还是我真正想要的？
Is this something that I've been conditioned to want, or is it something that I truly want?
这就引出了一个问题：什么才是真正的想要？
Which then begs the question, what the hell is truly want?
这里的‘想要’和那里的‘想要’有区别吗？
Is there a difference between want from over here and want from over there?
瑜伽修行者会说，答案是肯定的。
And the yogis will say that the answer is yes.
一旦你理解了自我，以及自我是如何以几种方式运作的。
So once you understand the ego and the ego functions in a couple of ways.
如果我问你，安德鲁，你是谁？
If I ask you, Andrew, who are you?
你会怎么回答？
What would you say?
安德鲁。
Andrew.
好的。
Okay.
就这样吗？
Is that it?
我的意思是，我有一份我在生活中所扮演角色的清单。
I mean, I have a list of roles that I occupy in life.
非常好。
Very good.
那些就是你吗？
Are those you?
它们是我各个方面的体现。
They're facets of me.
好的。
Okay.
没错。
Right.
所以，任何你能用来描述斯坦福大学终身教授的词。
So anything that you can use to describe tenured professor at Stanford.
对。
Right.
我不会把这一点放在第一位，但事实确实如此。
I wouldn't put that first, but that happens to be true.
我是个哥哥。
I'm a brother.
哥哥。
Brother.
我是个
I'm a
男朋友。
boyfriend.
滑板手？
Skater?
一旦是滑板手，永远是滑板手。
Once a skater, always a skater.
但是，
But,
是的。
yes.
对吧？
Right?
我是一名公立教育工作者。
I'm a public educator.
太好了。
Great.
我是个儿子，也是个朋友。
I'm a son, a friend.
所有这些都只是自我。
All of that stuff is ego.
嗯。
Mhmm.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以，自我就是当你说到‘我是……’时，任何之后定义你的东西，实际上都是你自我的一部分。
So ego is anything when you say I am dot dot dot, anything that defines you after that is actually part of your ego.
嗯。
Mhmm.
有趣的是，自我本身并不是坏的。
And and the interesting thing is that it's not that the ego is bad.
这是一种常见的误解。
This is a common misconception.
但事实上，我们都需要自我才能在这个世界上正常运作。
But, like, ego, we all need ego to function in in the world.
如果你并不在意是否在这个世界上正常运作，而是在走向觉悟，那么你就不再需要自我了。
If you are okay not functioning in the world and you're moving towards enlightenment, then you no longer need ego.
但一般来说，我们是需要自我的。
But generally speaking, we need ego.
所以，如果你正在寻找一条指引你真正想要什么、什么对你健康、什么对你不健康的路线图，当你说到‘我是安德鲁’时，确实有很多人也可以自称是安德鲁，但他们并不是你。
So, you know, if you're looking for a road map of what you truly want in life and what is healthy for you and not healthy for you, when you say you're Andrew, right, there's a lot of other people who can claim to be Andrew, but they're not you.
你谈论的是自我的一种根本内在体验。
You're talking about a a fundamental internal experience of the self.
在你成为男朋友之前，你已经是Andrew了。
And you were Andrew before you were a a boyfriend.
你就是Andrew。
You were Andrew.
你一直是个儿子。
You've always been a son.
但事实上，在你知道自己是儿子之前，你已经是Andrew了。
But you actually you were Andrew before you even knew you were a son.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
你仍然是安德鲁。
You were still Andrew.
所以，有一种根本的、类似体验的集合。
So there's a fundamental, like, bundle of experience.
那才是真正意义上的你。
That's really what you are.
我认为，如果你试图弄清楚人生该做什么，最好的方法就是剥开你自我 ego 的层层外衣。
And I think that the best road map, if you're trying to figure out what to do in life, try to peel away the layers of your ego.
我知道这变得复杂了。
And I know that's getting complicated.
但如果我们想想，到底是什么在现实中让我们在生活中陷入困境，那就是当我试图成为某种人的时候。
But if we sort of think about, like, you know, what is it that, like, practically gets us jammed up in life is when I try to be something.
是的。
Mhmm.
我知道这听起来可能有点奇怪。
I know this is gonna sound weird.
我确信你有抱负，但我不认为你现在的位置是因为你的抱负。
I'm sure you have ambition, but I don't think you are where you are because of your ambition.
我认为你现在的位置是因为你倾听内心的声音，而不是试图满足外界的期望。
I think you are where you are because you listen to this internal voice, not try to live up to external expectations.
完全正确。
100.
我真可以说，我从小到大每一个选择——无论是对鱼和动物的痴迷，还是滑板，再到生物学和科学，以及我现在所处的位置——都源于一种内在的热情，一种来自外部的牵引力。
I I can truly say that every choice I've made to get into, you know, fish and animals when I was a kid obsessed with birds and fish and then skateboarding and then biology and science and where I'm at now has has been some sense of an internal passion and something pulling me from the outside.
我只是顺其自然地前行。
And it's just a I just go.
对。
Right.
这些选择之所以做出，是因为我心底深处知道，别无他选。
Those choices were always made because I knew in my heart's heart, there was no other option.
从积极的意义上来说。
In in the positive sense.
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