解锁持久动力与极致韧性 | 罗斯·埃奇利

那是在苏格兰的顶部。

That's in the top of Scotland.

如果顺利的话，你每小时能游十节。

You can be traveling at 10 knots if you get it right.

这几乎是海豚的巡航速度了。

That is almost the cruising speed of a dolphin.

但如果搞错了，你就以十节的速度倒退。

But you get it wrong, you're going backwards at 10 knots.

就算你是迈克尔·菲尔普斯，你也照样往后退。

You could be Michael Phelps and you're still going backwards.

所以这真的就是一个团队项目。

So it genuinely is just such a team event.

再比如育空河，那就像个迷宫，到处都是逆流、漩涡和浮木堆积。

The Yukon, for instance, as well It was a maze, just kind of these countercurrents, whirlpools, log jams.

有一次我游泳的时候，一根木头从另一边漂回来，育空河队的队员们读河读得特别准，真的非常厉害。

There was a time when I was swimming and a log came back the other way, and the team in the Yukon were just amazing at just reading the river.

所以真的，我说我们，是因为这是团队项目。

So genuinely, I say we because it's a team event.

真的，我只是那个必须下水的人。

I'm just the one who has to get in the water, genuinely.

对，因为你在水里时，不能分心去想除了当前危险之外的额外风险。

Yeah, because you can't be thinking about whether or not you're headed into certain danger beyond what you're already in.

你需要专心于划水、呼吸、心理状态，以及你的脚趾是不是快冻掉了。

You need to be able to concentrate on your stroke, your breathing, your mental frame, whether or not your toes are falling off.

这——

It's-

你游这些的时候有没有被冻伤过？

Have you been frostbitten on these?

有，我经历过很多次。

Yeah, I've picked up loads.

这说来奇怪，包括低体温症、高体温症、横纹肌溶解症、蜂窝织炎，我都得过不少。

This is strange, from hypothermia, hyperthermia, rhabdomyolysis, cellulitis, picked up a fair-

蜂窝织炎是什么？

What's cellulitis?

啊，蜂窝织炎基本上就是——

Ah, cellulitis is basically-

听起来像是感染。

Sounds like infection

……没错，就是那个。

... exactly that.

对，是一种皮肤感染，但基本上我是在尼斯湖得的，因为那是淡水。

Yeah, a skin infection, but basically, I picked that up in Loch Ness because it was freshwater.

基本上是因为潜水服摩擦。

Basically, the wetsuit was chafing.

磨得太深，结果感染了。

It got so deep it turned infected.

然后如果它进入你的淋巴系统或血液，可能会致命。

And then if that gets in your lymph nodes or your bloodstream, it can be fatal.

这个处境真的很特别，因为那是一次长达56小时的不间断游泳。

It was this really strange position to be in as well, because it was a 56-hour nonstop swim.

水温大概四度，几乎是冰点了。

The water is about four degrees, barely above freezing.

中途不睡觉吗？

No stop for sleep?

对，不间断地游。

No. So nonstop swim.

你不能碰任何人。

You can't touch anybody.

别人也不能碰你。

No one can touch you.

你也不能碰船。

You can't touch the boat.

你就这样游上56个小时。

You just swim 56 hours.

到了最后阶段，感觉特别奇怪，因为我得了低温症，能感觉到核心体温在下降，整个人从里到外都在发抖。

And towards the end, it was so strange because I had hypothermia, so my core temperature, I could feel just I was shaking from the inside.

那种冷是深入到骨头里的，但皮肤因为蜂窝织炎又像火烧一样疼。

It was in my bones, but my skin was on fire from the cellulitis.

所以那真是对我的身体机能的一种奇怪的双重打击。

So it was this strange attack on my physiology.

但是，说到你问的问题，经历了那么多次这样的挑战，真的会重新调整你对疼痛的感知。

But yeah, to answer your question, picking up a fair few of those, it's really strange that it recalibrates your perception to pain.

在冰岛周围游泳的时候，有好几次我冷得不行，但心里就想，这还没尼斯湖那次糟糕。

And swimming around Iceland, there were times when I was really cold, and I was like, "It's not as bad as Loch Ness.

我还能撑得住。

I'm still okay."

我看到脖子周围的伤口什么的，就会想，这其实还不算太糟。

I'd look at wounds around my neck and everything, and I'd go, "Oh, that's not too bad.

看起来也没有感染的那种味道。

It doesn't smell infected.

我们没事。

We're good."

奖杯——

Trophies-

……是给你这种变态的。

... for a sicko like you.

你相信尼斯湖水怪存在吗？

Do you believe in the Loch Ness Monster?

有东西碰了我的腿。

Something touched my leg.

说真的，那真的太有意思了。

Honestly, it was so interesting.

是的，很可能就是。

Yeah, it probably was.

那感觉就像一种精神体验。

It was like a spiritual experience.

而且我觉得到那个时候，是尼采说的吧，他说：“与怪物战斗的人，应当小心自己不要成为怪物。”

And I think by that point, was it Nietzsche who said, "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that he doesn't become a monster himself.

“因为当你凝视深渊太久时，深渊也在凝视你。”

For if you gaze into the abyss too long, the abyss gazes back into you."

所以对我来说，在尼斯湖里游泳的时候，我脑子里一直想着这句话，而且我真的凝视深渊太久了。

And I think for me, swimming through Loch Ness, that was going through my head, and I definitely stared into the abyss too long.

前56个小时一切都还顺利，然后，说实话，我记得，我想说那是很渐进的过程，但是你的视野变得越来越窄，直到你只能透过针眼看到东西，然后就是一片漆黑。

It was going well up until 56 hours, and then literally, I just remember, I want to say it was very gradual, but you were looking and your tunnel vision just got narrower and narrower until you were looking through the eye of a needle, and then it just went black.

我记得醒来的时候，我的女朋友和我妈妈站在病床头，我抬头看了一眼，喊了一声：“啊。”

And I remember waking up, and my girlfriend and my mum were at the head of my hospital bed, and I just looked up and I just went, "Ah.

“事情不太顺利，对吧？”

It's not gone well, has it?"

他们说：“不，罗斯。”

And they were like, "No, Ross.

“事情一点儿也不顺利。”

It's not gone well at all."

所以我觉得从那次经历中学到的，回到你刚才说的失温那件事，现在知道去冰岛游之前已经在尼斯湖毕业了，我当时就想，算了，咱们别变成怪物了。

So I think learning from that, to go back to what you were saying about hypothermia thing, it's nice now knowing that with the Iceland swim, having graduated in Loch Ness, I was like, "Look, let's not become a monster.

别盯着深渊看太久。

Let's not stare into the abyss too long."

你后来回去再游那一次了吗？

Did you go back and do that one?

尼斯湖，我想再游一次。

Loch Ness, I want to.

我在那儿还有未完成的事。

I've got unfinished business there.

我从小就一直想，为什么他们不直接把尼斯湖抽干，一次性解决这个尼斯湖水怪的事呢？

I keep wondering since I was a kid, why don't they just drain Loch Ness and solve this Loch Ness Monster thing once and for all?

就是说啊。

I know, right?

不过那样对旅游业可不太好。

It's not good for the tourist trade, though.

不。

No.

我总觉得，如果它是真的，那多酷啊？

I always think if it's real, how cool is that?

如果不是真的，那这真是个吸引游客的高招。

And if it's not, what a remarkable way to increase tourist traffic to a location.

确实。

For sure.

你制造一个传说和神秘感，有点危险但又不会让人害怕到不敢去。

You create a myth and a mystique, something that's dangerous but not so dangerous that people are afraid to go.

没错。

For sure.

你再放几张照片出去，全世界都知道了。

You seed the world with a few photos.

很明显，要么是真有其事，要么就是炒作，对吧？

Clearly, one or the other happened, right?

或者两者兼有。

Or some combination.

不过我也很喜欢你提到这个，因为在冰岛游泳时，一开始我就听说了精灵、巨魔，还有那些没在日出日落前赶回来的巨魔山的故事。

But I love that you brought that up as well, because swimming around Iceland, at the start, I heard about elves and trolls and mountains with trolls that didn't make it back before sunset and sunrise, all of these stories.

我当时就想，"哦，真有意思。

I was like, "Oh, that's cool.

这故事真不错。"

That's a cool story."

在那儿游泳的时候，水里确实有点什么东西。

Swimming around it, there is something in the water.

确实发生过一些事。

There were events.

所以我还参加了一个祈福仪式。

So I got a blot ceremony.

基本上，这就像是古代首领的仪式，现代版的那种。

So basically, it's almost like an ancient chief, a modern-day form of that.

他基本上给我做了一场祈神仪式，祝福我这次游泳顺利。

And he basically gave me a blot ceremony where he blessed the swim.

和他交谈真是棒极了。

And it was just amazing speaking to him.

他说：“罗斯，我觉得你会死的，但这会是个好故事。”

He said, "Ross, I think you'll die, but it'll be a good saga."

这就是冰岛式的幽默。

The Icelandic sense of humor.

那就是送别的话？

That was the send-off?

没错，那就是送别的话。

That was the send-off.

真够阴森的。

Dark.

还记得刚开始那次游泳，游完之后我一边擦干身体，一边抬头看北极光。

Even at the start as well, I remember I did a swim, and afterwards I'm looking up at the northern lights, and I'm sort of toweling myself down.

我就觉得，这也太不可思议了。

I'm like, "This is unbelievable."

然后一个冰岛老渔夫不知从哪儿冒出来，我听到他的声音，他对我说的第一句话就是：“她们可能正在决定你是死是活。”

And this old Icelandic fisherman just comes out of nowhere, and I just hear his voice, and the first thing he says to me is, "They're probably deciding if you're going to live or die."

我转过身说：“你说什么？”

And I turned around, I went, "I'm sorry?"

他说：“瓦尔基里。”

And he goes, "The Valkyries."

我说：“不好意思，我没听懂。”

I said, "I'm sorry, you've lost me.

请解释一下。

Please explain."

他说：“嗯，我们相信北极光是瓦尔基里，就是奥丁的女战士，她们骑着马飞过天空。”

And he said, "Well, we believe that the northern lights are the Valkyries, Odin's female warriors, and they're riding through the sky.

那些闪烁的光芒是她们的盾牌和剑，她们把阵亡的人带回瓦尔哈拉。”

And the shimmering is their shields and their swords, and they're taking the fallen back to Valhalla."

我当时就想，"这真是太深刻了。"

And I was like, "That's deep.

"好吧。"

Okay."

然后，就像我说的，在开始那个祭祀仪式的时候，他们又开始讲——如果你已经知道了就抱歉了——他们在讲冰岛的守护者。

Then, like I said, starting the swim on the blot ceremony, they again, and sorry if you know this, but they were talking about the guardians of Iceland.

你知道这个故事吗？

Do you know this story?

我对冰岛——我几乎什么都不了解。

I don't know anything about-- I know very little about Iceland.

哦，这个故事太精彩了。

Oh, this story was amazing.

所以我们基本上是从西海岸出发的，他们说："罗斯，你知道吗，你正在公牛之国的领海里游泳。"

So we basically started on the west coast, and they said, "Ross, you're aware that you're swimming in the Kingdom of the Bull."

我说："你这是什么意思？"

I said, "What do you mean?"

然后他们说，传说基本上是这样的：有个外国的国王派了一个打扮成鲸鱼的巫师来入侵冰岛，他来到西海岸，那里有一头巨大的公牛，他们说，'对，你不能在那里攻击。'

And they said, "Well, the story goes that basically there was a foreign king who sent a sorcerer dressed as a whale to come and invade Iceland, came over to the west coast, and there was this massive bull, and they said, 'Right, you can't attack there.'

那头公牛代表力量和权力。

And that represented strength and power.

然后他去了北海岸。

Went over to the north coast.

那里是鹰的王国。

That was the Kingdom of the Eagle.

他们到了那里。

They turned up.

老鹰老远就看到了他们。

The eagle saw them from miles off.

那个巫师就想，'你不能在那里攻击。'

The sorcerer was like, 'You can't attack there.'

然后他去了东海岸。

Went over to the east coast.

东海岸那边是龙之国度，主要是因为那里有很多瀑布，而龙喜欢湍急的水流。

Over the east coast, that is the Realm of the Dragon, mainly because there's loads of waterfalls and dragons like fast-flowing water."

然后砰的一声，南海岸是巨人的领地。

And then Bang, on the south coast, the realm of the giant.

那个巫师变成的鲸到了那里，说：“哇，这里也不能进攻，”然后就消失了。

The whale, the sorcerer came there and was like, "Whoa, you can't attack there either," and then disappeared.

所以你看冰岛的国徽上，经常有公牛、老鹰、龙和巨人。

So when you look on the crest of Iceland, so often they have the bull, the eagle, the dragon, and the giant.

听到这个故事后，我觉得这挺酷的，但其实它更深层的意思是关于尊重自然和万物。

And again, upon hearing that, I was like, "Well, that's a cool story," but it's a little bit deeper, and they're saying really it's about respecting nature and everything.

而且我觉得在冰岛旅行时，这就像一剂肾上腺素。

And I think going around Iceland, that was just a shot of adrenaline.

我觉得有点奇怪的是，我还想问问你，因为我听了这些故事后，不太确定，如果我错了请纠正我，处理策略的是不是背外侧前额叶皮层？

And I think what was weird, and I wanted to quiz you on this actually, because upon hearing stories of this, I don't know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is it the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex that deals with strategy?

这几乎是你给自己讲的故事。

And it's almost the story that you're telling yourself.

所以当我在游泳的时候，我心想：“这里是神牛的王國。”

So when I'm swimming around, I'm like, "This is the kingdom of the bull."

我几乎在脑海里把它诗意化了。

And I almost made it poetic in my head.

这确实帮我撑过了好几次游泳。

And that actually got me through a few swims.

而且，就像我之前说的要努力游回家那样，到后来也有奥丁的故事。

And then even towards the end as well, like I said about trying to make it back home, the story of Odin.

在古挪威神话中，他们相信命运。

So, in ancient Norse mythology, they believe in fate.

他们相信你无法控制自己的命运，你唯一能控制的是你面对它的态度。

They believe that you can't control your destiny, and the only thing you control is your attitude towards it.

所以奥丁，基本上，诸神黄昏是北欧的末日，就是诸神与巨人的大战，规模巨大。

So Odin, basically Ragnarok being the Norse apocalypse, where basically the gods fight the giants, this huge battle.

奥丁基本上是用他的一只眼睛换来了智慧。

And Odin basically had traded his eye for wisdom.

所以他知道，剧透警告，他会被一只巨狼吃掉，但他还是勇往直前冲进了战斗。

So he knew, spoiler alert, that he was going to be eaten by a giant wolf, but he just charges into battle anyway.

我觉得听到了这个故事之后，真正让我觉得有趣的是——尤其是在114天的游泳结束后，我坐在那里想：“你必须完成。

And I think what was really interesting upon hearing this, certainly by the time I finished the swim after 114 days, I was sat there thinking, "You need to finish.

你必须回去迎接你儿子的出生。”

You need to get back for the birth of your son."

但同样，如果古老的北欧众神在天上看着，他们会希望我这样做。

But equally, if the ancient Nordic gods are watching, this is what they would want.

再说尼采，他怎么说来着？

Again, Nietzsche, what is it?

“我不知道还有什么更高的生活目标，比在尝试不可能的事情中死去更伟大。”

"I know of no greater life purpose than to perish in attempting the impossible."

所有的这些都在我脑海中盘旋。

And all of that was going through my head.

你刚才提到了背外侧前额叶皮层。

You asked about the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

所以有一系列研究，既然你对神经科学和前中扣带皮层感兴趣，我确实重新看过这些，但从来没在我播客上讲过，不过在神经科学领域这是个很扎实的研究方向，跟一个叫管道测试的实验有关。

So there is a set of studies that since you have an interest in neuroscience and the anterior midcingulate cortex that I did return to, I haven't talked about on my podcast ever, but it's a solid literature in neuroscience and has to do with an experiment called the tube test.

你知道管道测试吗？

Do you know about the tube test?

不知道。

No.

你可能会喜欢这个。

You might like this.

几年前，人们对是什么驱动了坚持和赢得竞争感兴趣，所以他们开发了一个叫管道测试的东西，是在老鼠身上做的，不过我们待会儿会聊到人类的类似版本。

Some years ago, people were interested in what drives persistence and winning in competition, so they developed something called the tube test, and it's done on mice, but then we'll talk about the human analog.

基本上，你把两只雄性老鼠放进一根管子里，它们就想打架。

And basically, you put two male mice into a tube, and they want to fight.

这就是雄性老鼠想干的事。

It's just what male mice want to do.

顺便说一句，雌性老鼠也会这样。

Female mice will do it too, by the way.

雌雄配对也会这样。

Female-male pairings will do it too.

但他们通常用雄性来做这个实验，也就是雄性配对的组合。

But they tend to do this with males, male-male pairings.

把两只老鼠放进管子里，但因为管子足够小，它们没法真正互相抓挠或撕咬。

Put them in the tube, but these fights are not such that, the tube is small enough, so they can't really scratch or bite at each other.

明白了。

Got it.

然后一只会把另一只推出领地。

And one pushes the other one out of the territory.

空间，谁获得最多的空间是动物之间竞争的一个非常原始但重要的特征，比如狗等。

Space, who gets the most space is a very primitive but important feature of competition among animals, dogs, et cetera.

谁获得空间？

Who gets space?

所以你把两只老鼠放进去，一只往往会赢，另一只往往会输。

So you put two mice in, and one tends to win, and one tends to lose.

而且有一些有趣的统计数据表明，平均来看，先前的胜利往往会带来未来的胜利。

And there's some interesting statistics that fall out whereby prior winning leads to future winning, on average.

所以时间长了，赢家总是赢，输家总是输。

So winners tend to be winners, and losers tend to be losers over time.

有意思的是，这一点与睾酮水平无关，也与营养状况等因素无关。

In a way, and this is where it gets interesting, that's independent of testosterone levels, independent of things like nutritional status.

在极端情况下，这些因素就不起作用了，比如一方被饿着，或者被阉割了，对吧。

At the extremes, these things fall away, like one is starved, or one is castrated, okay.

体重这些因素也是。

Body weight, these sorts of things.

所以这里还有其他因素在起作用。

So there's something else there.

所以多个实验室都在研究这个，他们用比较宏观的方式测量了大脑活动，并定位到前额叶皮层的一个区域，在小鼠身上虽然不能说完全等同于我们的背外侧前额叶皮层，但至少有一些类似的部分。

So a bunch of different laboratories have worked on this, measured brain activity in a broad-scale way, and pinpointed this region of the prefrontal cortex, which in mice you can't really say is equivalent to our dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, but at least has components of it.

然后他们做了下面这个实验。

And then they do the following experiment.

你选一只一直赢的老鼠，关掉它大脑的这个特定区域，或者降低它的活跃度，让它安静下来，它就会变成输家。

You take a mouse that was consistently a winner, and you silence this particular region of the brain, or you quiet its activity, you lessen its activity, and it becomes the loser.

你再选一只输的老鼠，实时增强它这个大脑区域的活动，现在它每次都能赢。

You take the loser, and you, in real-time, increase the amount of activity in this particular brain region, and now it wins every time.

接下来这个发现可厉害了。

Here's what's wild.

皮质醇的水平，睾酮的水平。

The amount of cortisol, the amount of testosterone.

这些都说明不了真正发生了什么。

None of that stuff speaks to what could really be going on.

看起来是前额叶皮层发出的自上而下的回路，连接到其他一堆区域——这明显是个回路系统，不只是大脑里的一个部位——在任何现实条件下，它都在驱动这种不断求胜的意志。

It seems that this top-down circuit from the prefrontal cortex to a bunch of other stuff, these are clearly circuits, not just one location in the brain, is driving persistence to win under any realistic condition.

但话说回来，你不可能让一只还在胎儿期的老鼠去打败成年老鼠，对吧？

But again, you can't take a fetal mouse and have it beat an adult mouse, right?

明白。

Okay.

但在其他条件大致相同的情况下，这个区域的活动会驱动坚持和获胜。

But all other things being more or less equal, activity in this area drives persistence and winning.

在人类身上也有类似的实验，用虚拟现实和脑扫描仪之类的设备。

And there are equivalent experiments in humans using virtual reality and brain scanners and this kind of thing.

做这个实验其实挺难的。

It's hard to do the experiment.

你明显比我强壮多了。

You're clearly physically stronger than I am.

我也算是挺结实的。

I'm reasonably strong.

但说实话，你确实比我强。

But, no, you absolutely are.

所以不可能说刺激一下我的前额叶皮层，我就能在硬拉上赢你。

So there's no way that you're going to stimulate my prefrontal cortex, and I'm going to beat you in a deadlift.

这点我很清楚。

I just know this.

没关系。

It's okay.

我们甚至不用考虑另一种可能。

We don't even have to entertain the other possibility.

但如果我们在某件事上的能力差距在10%或20%以内，那么谁在这个脑区的活动最活跃，谁就会一次又一次地获胜。

But there's a world where if we are otherwise within 10 or 20% of each other's abilities in something, that whoever has the most activity in this brain region wins over and over and over again.

对。

Yes.

反过来也一样。

And the converse is true, too.

所以我觉得这很神奇，因为对人类来说，这个脑区参与的是有意识的策略制定。

So I find this amazing because the analog in human is that this is a brain area that's involved in conscious strategy setting.

有意识的策略制定，具体的策略可能是愤怒——

Conscious strategy setting, and the particular strategy could be anger-

也可能是爱，或者你想赶回家看孩子出生。

... could be love, could be you want to get home to see your child born.

可能是你饿了想吃东西。

Could be you're hungry and you want to eat.

或者你想让别人吃东西，这样他们才能活下来——前额叶皮质的妙处在于，它能在各种不同的情境中学会多种不同的策略。

You want others to eat so they can survi- The beauty of the prefrontal cortex is that it can learn lots of different strategies in lots of different contexts.

在那方面，它是神经回路中独特的一部分。

It's a unique component of the circuitry in that way.

所以当有人告诉我，“是的，我在沙漠赛跑中跑到第200英里，我想放弃，但我就有那样一个念头，然后我就咬牙坚持下去。”

So when people tell me, "Yeah, I'm in mile 200 of a race in the desert, and I want to quit, and I just have this thought, and I push."

那显然是一种前额叶皮质自上而下控制的事情。

Clearly that's a prefrontal cortical top-down type thing.

那是真实存在的。

That's a real thing.

它有物理基础，从老鼠身上就能看到，其他物种也有类似证据，但在我们身上显然也存在。

There's a physical substrate to it from mice, and it's been shown in other species, too, but it's clearly there in us.

但你刚才说的，还有那些输的人，我很喜欢。最近有人谈到罗杰·费德勒，说如果你看他的比赛时关掉声音，也看不到比分，你根本不知道他是赢了那一分还是输了。

But what I love about what you said there, and also as well, for those losing then as well, there was somebody recently was talking about Roger Federer, and they said if you watched his matches and turned the sound off and couldn't see the score, you wouldn't know if he won the point or lost the point.

他对此非常淡定。

He was so stoic about it.

那你觉得如果比赛失利，不去理会它，是不是也能扭转颓势呢？

So do you think it's the same as well if you're losing, that if you don't react to it, you're maybe able to buck that trend?

你明白我的意思吗？

Does that make sense?

明白，非常理解。

No, it totally makes sense.

我觉得今天会涌现出几个大的主流趋势，但其中一个肯定会浮现的就是关于能量的概念。

So I think that there are several big macros today that are going to emerge, but one of them that clearly will emerge is this notion of energy.

我之所以问你十岁的罗斯·埃德格利，是因为我隐约觉得他精力很充沛。

The reason I asked about the 10-year-old Ross Edgley is I had a sneaking suspicion that he had a lot of energy.

有些人天生就精力旺盛，对吧？

Some people just have a lot of energy, right?

精力充沛是件好事。

Having a lot of energy is great.

在精力充沛的基础上进行能量管理——

Energy management on a backdrop of having a lot of energy-

……那才是真正让人佩服的地方，对吧？

... that's where things start getting impressive, right?

我觉得，精力充沛但能量管理不好，恰恰是导致“27俱乐部”的原因。

Poor energy management on a backdrop of a lot of energy is, I think, what leads to the 27 Club.

那些做了惊天动地的事却英年早逝的人。

People who do incredible things and die.

不管是因为他们从事的活动本身，还是因为——我在一部大家都该看看的精彩纪录片里听到过，片名叫《反叛者》，讲的是德雷博士和吉米·艾奥文，还有Beats耳机的创立，以及嘻哈乐的故事。里面有个NWA的成员，现在很少听到他的消息了，但当时他显然才华横溢，却遭遇了一场非常严重的意外。

Whether by virtue of their particular activity or by virtue of, I heard this in this wonderful documentary that everyone should see, which is, "The Defiant Ones," which is about Dre and Jimmy Iovine and development of Beats and the story of hip-hop and there was a guy in NWA who we don't hear about much anymore, who clearly was extremely talented, but he had a really bad accident.

他谈到那件事是怎么发生的，说起来挺疯狂的。你问他，别人也问：“你觉得那时发生了什么？”

And he's talking about how it happened, and it involved wildness and you ask him, they were like, "What do you think happened?"

他就简单说了句：“过火。”

And he just goes, "The excesses."

就是那些过火的东西——精力过旺，还有金钱、毒品之类的——

It was the excesses of all that energy pouring in, money and drugs and-

还有快车和名气，这些在他身上都没有管理好。

... fast cars and being famous, and it wasn't well managed in him.

他还活着，但那些过度放纵造成的后果。

And he's still alive, but the excesses.

所以能量管理显然是能力的一部分，让你能像十岁的自己那样，不断往背上加石头，但又不浪费多余的精力。

So energy management is clearly a piece of the ability to be the 10-year-old you and load more and more rocks, but you're not burning unnecessary energy.

所以效率这块，我觉得就是那些我们给自己讲的故事，比如“我是为了某某做这件事”，你能把其他可能的动机都排除掉，至少在一段时间内。

So the efficiency piece is, I think, where these stories that we tell ourselves, like, "I'm doing this for so-and-so," you're able to separate out all the other possible motivations, at least for some period of time.

仅仅是保持动力，就是一个失调的系统。

Just being motivated is a dysregulated system.

所以为了做某事而充满动力，因为某个原因，这才是一个管理得当的能量系统。

So motivated to do blank because blank, that's a well-managed energy system.

所以大多数人都会为你的原始能量水平而折服。

So most people would die for your levels of raw energy.

但回到你如何动态调节能量这个主题，你在这些征途中，有没有那么一刻觉得，“到此为止了”。

But in keeping with this theme about how you dynamically regulate your energy, have there ever been moments along any of your conquests when you thought, "That's it.

我说‘我不行了’，但你有没有跟别人说过‘别让我放弃’？

I'm done," but you had told somebody, "Don't let me quit"?

你把管理外包了。

You outsourced the management.

你问这个我真的很高兴，因为情况几乎相反。

I'm really glad you asked that because it's almost the opposite.

比如蒂姆·诺克斯的中枢调控理论，或者心理生物学疲劳模型，讲的是大脑和身体怎么互动，会拉下生理的‘手刹’，阻止你累到彻底虚脱。

So looking at Tim Noakes' central governor theory or psychobiological model of fatigue, this idea of how the brain and the body interact and will pull the physiological handbrake to stop you from going to complete exhaustion.

我听到这个并且研究这个的时候，是在尼斯湖之前，我还在意大利的塔西梅诺湖游过泳。

Upon hearing this and studying this, this was before Loch Ness, and also I did a swim in Lake Trasimeno in Italy.

我们遇到了罕见的酷暑，温度超过40摄氏度，水温高达34度。

We got caught in a freak heat wave, temperatures over 40 degrees Celsius, water temperature up to 34 degrees.

那水就跟洗澡水一样。

It was bath water.

那简直就是等着发生横纹肌溶解症。

It was rhabdomyolysis waiting to happen.

三十七小时后，接近一百公里时，同样的事情又发生了。

Thirty-seven hours in, approaching 100 kilometers, exactly the same happened.

身体开始罢工了。

Body just started to shut down.

我就是一直在游。

I am just swimming.

我特别固执，而且我觉得很奇怪的是，看着那个心理生物学疲劳模型。

I'm so stubborn, and I think what's really strange is looking at that psychobiological model of fatigue.

我知道一旦我脑子里那个疑病症患者开始拉生理手刹，我就会说：'不不不'，然后我就踩下油门。

I know that as soon as it's my brain that's a hypochondriac starts pulling the physiological handbrake, I just go, "No, no, no." I just put my foot down on the gas.

所以实际上，和我的团队在一起，我们讨论的是把常识外包出去。

So actually, with my team, we talk about outsourcing common sense.

我说，听着，我说这个并不是很自豪。

I say, look, and I don't say this proudly.

这是个性格缺陷。

It's a personality defect.

我很清楚这一点。

I'm well aware of that.

但我知道我会一直游到自己被送进医院，这可不是好事，特别是现在作为父亲。

But I know I will swim till I put myself in hospital, and that's a bad thing, especially now as a dad.

所以我把这个决定权交给我的团队，我说：“好，伙伴们，

So I outsource that to my team, and I go, "Okay, guys.

如果你们告诉我必须把我拉出来，并且打出那张牌，我会听你们的，因为我不能老是把自己弄进医院。”

If you tell me that you need to pull me out and you play that card, I will listen because I can't keep putting myself in hospital."

我想这是其中一点。

And I think that's one thing.

现在几乎反过来了，我需要被自己拯救。

It's almost the opposite now, that I need to be saved from myself.

再次强调，我对此一点也不感到骄傲。

Again, I don't say that proudly at all.

但我现在非常清楚，从他们的血液检查和其他数据来看，我对自己说：“看，我不能再那样做了。

But I'm just very aware now, from metrics they have with my blood work and various things, I'm like, "Look, I can't do that again.

现在不行，因为我是爸爸了。

Not now as a dad.

我得更有责任感。

I need to be more responsible."

这就要信任团队了，他们也很棒，因为他们很清楚我们想做的事有多宏大，所以他们会允许我在常识和科学支持的边缘稍微试探一下。

And that's trusting the team, who are amazing as well because they are well aware that what we're trying to achieve is so ambitious, so they will allow me to sort of play with the boundaries of common sense and support science.

杰尔·肯尼迪，我的好朋友，史上最伟大的冰泳选手之一。

Jer Kennedy, great friend of mine, one of the greatest ice swimmers ever.

他对低体温症和寒冷非常了解，我们俩经常聊天，很多时候他看起来状态很好，思路也很清晰。

So he just understands hypothermia, the cold, and there's so many times me and him have conversations, and he's just like, he's still good, he's still coherent.

但有时候我真希望杰尔在场，能直接说：“罗斯，你该停了。”

But there's other times where I wish I'd had Jer there just to go, "Ross, you're done."

有意思。

It's interesting.

我们待会儿会聊聊成瘾的话题，但我有几个朋友，其中一对上过这个播客，他们公开说过自己曾经是严重的成瘾者，他们需要专门指定一个人来阻止他们说服别人让自己独处，或者阻止他们想办法拿回手机，或者阻止他们想办法回到赌场，诸如此类。

We'll talk a little bit about addiction later, but I have some friends, a couple who've been on this podcast, who've talked openly about the fact that they were bad addicts, and they needed to literally assign somebody the job of don't let them talk their way out of an isolation, or don't let them talk their way back to their phone, or don't let them talk their way back to a casino, and this kind of thing.

而且，如果对方不让他们那么做，还会给巨额现金奖励。

And, with huge cash rewards if the person doesn't allow them to do it.

你也得在另一边设立激励措施，对吧？

You have to create incentive on the other side, too, right?

因为有些人真的特别有说服力。

Because some of these folks are really persuasive.

我就是那样的人。

That's me.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

所以，对，我们可以坦诚地谈这个人，因为他也公开说过这些事。

So yeah, we can be honest about who we're talking about here because he's talked about it openly.

大卫·乔几年前来过这个播客，他是个非常有才华的艺术家，也是个很棒的人，我很庆幸能和他做朋友。他一生中多次沉迷赌博。

David Choe was on this podcast some years ago, extremely talented artist, amazing human being, blessed to call him a friend, and he's had a gambling addiction many times over in his life.

幸运的是，他现在没有在赌，希望以后也不会。但曾有那么几次，他不得不给团队很大一笔钱，让他们别听他说服他们放他出隔离小屋，或者把手机还给他。那段时间他一直在戒赌。

Fortunately, he's- He's not in it now, and hopefully never will be again, but there were times when he had to offer his team tremendous amounts of money to not let him- ... convince them to let him out of an isolation cabin for a couple months while he was sobering up or give him his phone.

那段时间，他疯狂迷上了《愤怒的小鸟》，一天玩23个小时。

In which time, he became viciously addicted to playing Angry Birds 23 hours a day.

那游戏确实不错。

It's a good game.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

或者玩《宝可梦》之类的吧。

Or Pokémon or whatever.

所以你说的这种情况，因为是个人的选择，而且只要你能活下来，顺利回到女朋友和孩子身边，那就没问题，对吧？

So what you describe, because it's a elected endeavor and because, provided you survive and make it home to your girlfriend and child, it's all good, right?

但这里面确实有成瘾的成分，不是吗？

But it has a component of addiction, right?

就像如果你没抓住那些石头，没有下一次游泳的机会。

It's like if you don't have the rocks, if you don't have the next swim.

那你觉得怎么才算过头了？

So how do you gauge what's too much?

每个追求卓越的人最终都要面对一个问题：多少钱、多少英里、多少名气——

Every high achiever has to answer at some point the question, how much money, how many miles, how much fame-

……多少成就才能让我满足？

... how many blanks before I'm satisfied?

而答案显然不是固定的。

And the answer is clearly not concrete.

它是动态变化的。

It's like a dynamic thing.

完全同意，是的。

100%, yeah.

所以你得离死亡多近，才会说，“你知道吗——

So like how close to dying do you have to get before you're like, "You know what- ...

我要去放松一下，画个画什么的？”

I'm going to chill and paint or something?"

这个问题问得太好了，因为我就是最近一年才开始思考这些的。我儿子现在一岁了，他确实让我不得不去面对这些问题。

Is such a good question, because I'm literally as of only the last year, so my son's now one year old, and so he's really kind of forced me to ask those questions.

要是搁以前，二十一岁那会儿，有人跟我说‘去南极洲游过火山吧’，我肯定立马说‘行，看我的’。

Now when on proposed swims, the 21-year-old self, if somebody said, "Oh, go swim through a volcano down in Antarctica," I'd be like, "Yeah, hold my beer.

说干就干。

Done."

但现在，我得先问问自己，这事儿值不值？

Whereas now, I've got to ask myself, is this worth it?

够不够分量？

Is it enough?

值得去做吗？

Is it worth doing?

我也不确定。

I don't know.

我只知道，维克多·弗兰克尔说生命的意义在于赋予生命意义，乔丹·彼得森说人生的目的是挑最重的担子，然后扛起来。

The only thing I know is with Viktor Frankl talking about the meaning of life is to give life meaning, Jordan Peterson saying the purpose of life is to pick up the heaviest load and carry it.

这些话特别触动我，我确实需要目标。弗兰克尔也说过，人除了名声、金钱，更需要的是每天醒来有个盼头。

All of those things resonated so much with me that I do need purpose, and Viktor Frankl says that over fame, money, just a human needs to wake up.

你早上起床的理由是什么？

What is your reason for getting up in the morning?

当我没有游泳或训练目标时，我女朋友就说我像笼子里的动物一样焦躁不安。

And when I don't have a swim or something to train for, my girlfriend just says I'm just like a caged animal.

她看到我在家时，

She sees me at home.

她非常了不起。我去冰岛时，她怀孕挺着大肚子来送我，别人问她：“你怎么让他去干这事？”

I mean, she's amazing, and when I left for Iceland, she's quite heavily pregnant, waving me off, and they said, "How are you letting him do this?"

她说：“哦，他要是在家待着，肯定会难受死了。”

And she goes, "Oh, he would be terrible if he was still at home."

所以我知道他在外面的时候最开心。

So I know he's happiest when he's out there.

在游大不列颠岛的时候也是，岸上很多人都看到我。当时我已经游了100天，赫斯特来看我的时候，我看起来像海怪和狼人的结合体。

Even swimming around Great Britain as well, so many people back on land, when Hester would come and see me, and I was 100 days in, I looked like a sea yeti werewolf.

我的舌头都在脱皮。

My tongue was falling off.

我全身都磨破了。

I was chafing all over.

然后人们会说：“哦，他怎么样了？

And people would say, "Oh, how's he doing?

我看到那些伤了。

I've seen the wounds.

我看到他脖子上的伤了。”

I've seen his neck."

然后Hester总是回答：“我从没见过他这么开心。”

And Hester would just always reply, "I've never seen him so happy."

就像，“他玩得可开心了。”

Like, "He's having the best time."

而且我不是为了骄傲才这么说，我只是知道我需要目标。

And again, I don't say that necessarily in a proud way, but I just know I just need purpose.

不管是什么——

Whatever it is-

……给我点东西可以为之训练的。

... give me something to train for.

她遇见你的时候，你已经是这样了——

And she met you when you were already like this-

……而且正在做这件事。

... and doing this.

这很重要。

That's important.

这确实太重要了。

It's so important.

而且你没有在交往三年后突然把这个告诉她。

And you didn't like spring this on her three years into a relationship.

不不不。

No, no, no.

不，不。

No, no.

她太厉害了。

She's incredible.

比如育空河游泳，那次是连续510公里，游了56个小时。

Like the Yukon swim, for instance, so that was 510 kilometers nonstop, 56 hours.

虽然整个探险活动大概持续了70个小时，我们整个团队，包括我自己，70个小时没睡觉，因为我们还得把船弄到起点。

Although the entire expedition was about 70 hours, so the entire team, including myself, didn't sleep for 70 hours because we had to actually get the boat to the starting point.

我就记得一直游，然后看到我女朋友的身影，每20分钟她扔给我一根香蕉，我就说“谢谢，宝贝”。

And I just remember just swimming, and there's just the silhouette of my girlfriend, and every 20 minutes, she throws me a banana, and I'm just like, "Thanks, babe."

她就说“没事儿”。

And she's just like, "Oh, no problem."

我觉得就是那一刻，我特别感激，游的时候心里充满感恩，想着“谢谢你接受我”。

And I think it was that, I feel so fortunate just swimming with gratitude, realizing that I'm just like, "Oh, thanks for accepting me.

我知道我是个野性难驯、有点奇怪的男朋友，所以真的很感谢你。”

I know I'm a feral, weird boyfriend, so I really appreciate it."

你看起来，就像我有时候形容自己那样，只是被部分驯化了，所以……

You seem, as I would describe, and sometimes describe myself, only partially domesticated, so-

就是这样。

That is absolutely it.

真的就是这样。

That is so it.

我出现的时候，刚从冰岛回来，浑身是毛。

When I turned up as well, I was hairy from Iceland.

身上还有水母的触手。

I had like jellyfish tentacles.

我浑身都是摩擦的伤口，就那样到了医院，赶在儿子出生前三天回来了。

I was just literally chafing wounds, and I arrived at the hospital, so I made it back by three days for the birth of my son.

我走进医院的时候，护士和其他人都说：“天哪，

So as I arrived into the hospital, nurses and everyone was like, "Oh my God.

那是谁啊？”

Who is that?"

然后赫斯特就说：“哦，不不不，很不幸，那是我孩子的爸爸。”

And Hester was like, "Oh, no, no, no. Unfortunately, that is the father of my child."

“他看起来野，但很安全。”

"He's feral, but he's safe."

她天生就爱担心吗？

Is she a worrier by nature?

是的，但她说我们在一起13年了，现在她只能选择放手。

Yes, but she said since we've been together 13 years, and she says now she just has to let go.

我觉得这很有意思，因为现在她对风险的判断标准完全变了。

And I think it's really interesting because now her barometer of worrying has completely changed.

因为当你有了……

Because when you have...

育空就是个很好的例子。其实我一直想跟你聊聊这个，正好，就是你对危险的感知。

I mean, the Yukon was a great example, and I wanted to actually, this is great because I wanted to chat to you about this anyway, but just your perceptions of danger.

在育空游泳的时候，有很多次遇到黑熊都没事，在加拿大育空那边。

So there was so many times on the swim where black bears were fine in the Yukon in Canada.

它们有点胆小，会看你一眼。我能感觉到我的杏仁核或者说类似的东西在观察，然后说：“没事。”

They're a bit skittish, and they look at you, and I could almost feel my amygdala or circuitry, whatever it was, was looking and going, "That's okay."

当棕熊出现在那片区域时，它们可不会害羞。

When the brown bears appeared on the site, they are not skittish.

它们就这么看着你，好像在说：“你不是三文鱼，但也不是熊。

They're just looking at you going, "You're not a salmon, but you're not a bear.

我在想你会是什么味道呢。”

I wonder what you taste like."

而我呢，就一直在那儿游。

And I am just swimming.

我转身看向育空那边的队员们，他们真的很棒，后勤团队。

I turned to the guys in the Yukon, and they were amazing, the support team.

我就问：“各位，我在这儿没问题吧？

I said, "Guys, am I okay here?

因为那只棕熊看我的眼神，就像我在它眼里是道甜品似的。”

Because that brown bear is looking at me like I'm a dessert."

然后他们把家伙拿出来了，安德鲁，那哪儿是枪啊，简直就是一门大炮。

And they pulled out, Andrew, it wasn't even a gun, it was a cannon.

然后他们说：‘罗斯，要是它靠得太近，它就会进我的冰箱里。’

And they went, "Ross, if it gets too close, it'll end up in my freezer."

我心想：‘没错，

And I was like, "Right.

这正是我想要的回答。’

That's the response I wanted.

太好了。’

Great."

我就继续游了。

Carried on swimming.

但你在鲨鱼潜水时也有过类似的经历——

But you experienced that as well with shark diving-

也是这样。

... as well.

那改变了你，重塑了你，这么说公平吗？

That changed, that rewired you, is it fair to say?

我不想把话题转到我的任何冒险经历上，它们绝对没有你的那么大胆，也没有那么持久。

I don't want to shift this to a story of any of my adventures, and they're in no way, shape, or form as bold and as- ... enduring as yours.

不过，是的，几年前为了我的实验室，我们决定在野外录制大白鲨，然后带回VR实验室。

But yeah, a few years back for my lab, we decided to record these great white sharks in the wild, bring it to the VR lab.

我一个朋友，迈克尔·穆勒，一个非常出色的摄影师和摄像师，说服我去考潜水证，然后出笼子游向鲨鱼。

And a friend of mine, a very accomplished photographer, videographer, Michael Muller, convinced me to get dive certified and exit the cage and swim towards the sharks.

这需要技巧。

And there's a skill to doing this.

不是光靠胆大就行。

It's not like you're not just ... cowboying it.

但前一天在普孔线上，我在笼子外面遇到了气瓶故障，那又是一段故事。

But I had an air failure not out of the cage on the Pucon line the day before, and there's a whole story there.

所以2017年是我刻意结束拿身体冒险的年份。

So 2017 marked the deliberate end of me taking risks with my physical life.

但我在那里学到的，以及从像卡姆·海恩斯这样的人那里学到的，还有在澳大利亚待的时间，还有像安迪·斯图姆夫这样的蒙大拿人，都告诉我，我们对野外危险的认知往往是有点模糊的，我们很容易被误导。

But what I learned there and what I've learned from people like Cam Haynes and from spending time in Australia and from people who live in Montana, like Andy Stumpf, is that our perception of what's dangerous in the wild is often a little bit cryptic, and we can easily be misled.

比如，那只小蜘蛛看起来很友好，结果那才是致命的。

Like, oh, that little spider looks friendly, and that's the deadly one.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

或者那只熊看起来很大很吓人，但其实它并不会主动追你。

Or that bear looks very large and looming, but it turns out that's not the one that will actively hunt you.

真正危险的反而是体型稍小、专门喜欢猎杀人类的那只。

It's actually the somewhat smaller one that just likes to hunt humans.

就是这类事情。

This kind of thing.

所以关键的一点是，不管是水母、蜘蛛、蛇、鸟，甚至有时候是人，当地人才是最了解情况的。

And so the key takeaway being whether it's jellyfish, spiders, snakes, birds, or in some cases, people for that matter, locals have the key knowledge.

哇。

Wow.

而我们对什么危险、什么不危险的判断往往可能是错的，所以最好还是把一切都当作危险的来对待。

And our ideas about what's dangerous or not are often wrong, so best to err on it's all dangerous.

完全同意。

100%.

我也特别喜欢你刚才说的，因为我自己也和大白鲨、虎鲨一起潜过水，它们有洛伦兹壶腹，能感知到电脉冲。

And I love what you said there as well because, again, diving with great whites and also tiger sharks myself, they have the ampullae of Lorenzini, where they pick up electrical impulses.

而且我觉得，正如你所说，最奇怪的是我第一次和它们一起潜水时，我在水里一向很自在，但奇怪的是，虎鲨和大白鲨竟然知道我是最弱的潜水者。

And I think exactly to your point, what was so strange is the first time I dived with them, I'm always comfortable in the water, but it was so strange how the tigers and the great whites knew that I was the weakest diver.

不管是因为我退缩了、表现得像猎物，还是我的心跳或者呼吸，它们都知道。

And whether that was I was flinching, I acted like prey, whether my heartbeat or whether I was breathing, it knew.

这真的特别有意思。

And it was so interesting.

在音频里，他们就说：“罗斯，控制你的呼吸。”

On the audio, they were like, "Ross, control your breathing.

罗斯，放慢你的心跳。”

Ross, slow your heart rate."

我当时就想：“它怎么知道的？”

And I was like, "How does it know?"

果然，它们全都直接朝我游过来了。

And sure enough, they just all just came straight for me.

然后它们好像在说：‘罗斯，我不是让你跟它对着干，但也不是让你退缩躲开。’

And they were like, "Ross, I'm not saying square up to it, but I'm not saying flinch and back away as well."

所以当它朝我过来时，我就说：‘嗯，有什么需要帮忙的吗？’

So as it came towards me, I was, "Well, can I help you?"

它看了我一眼，那种交流真的很特别，虽然是非言语的，它好像在打量我，然后说：‘好吧。’

And it looked at me, and there was a real form of communication that is obviously non-verbal, and it sort of looked and was like, "All right.

行。

Okay.

你知道自己在做什么。

You know what you're doing.

我不打扰你了。’

I'll leave you alone."

这种感觉真的很奇怪。

And it was so strange.

在育空地区遇到熊时也是完全一样的情况。

Exactly the same with the bears in the Yukon.

它们会观察你，如果发现你有弱点，那就是丛林法则。

That they were looking, and if there was a weakness, that is the laws of the jungle.

我可能早就被攻击了。

I would've been charged.

所有动物都有自己复杂独特的智慧形式。

All animals have their own sophisticated forms of intelligence.

在下水之前你会了解到，大白鲨会慢慢地逼近你。

What you learn with the great whites before you go down there is, they're going to come looming in slowly.

那里有很多金枪鱼。

There are a lot of tuna out there.

还有很多海豹和其他猎物可以供它们捕食，所以它们并不是主动来猎杀你的。

There are a lot of seals and other things for them to eat, so they're not actively trying to hunt you.

但如果你游开，它们就会把你当成猎物。

But if you swim away from them, they perceive you as prey.

它们在做二元决策，对吧？

They're making a binary decision, right?

这其实在脑回路方面是很重要的一点。

And this is actually an important thing in terms of brain circuitry.

我有个学生，后来去做博士后了。

Again, I had a student who then went off and did a postdoc.

她现在在瑞士有自己的实验室，叫Lindsay Sillet，发表过一些关于威胁评估和应对的论文。

She now has her own laboratory in Switzerland, Lindsay Sillet, who published some papers on threat assessment and response.

恐惧如何变成停顿，再变成攻击。

How fear can turn to pausing, can turn to aggression.

这是非常非常有趣的研究，她真的值得称赞。

It's very, very interesting work, and she really deserves the credit.

我们可以把那些论文的链接放上去。

We can put a link to those papers.

但中脑丘脑这些区域，基本上就在大脑的正中央，负责在三个选项中做决定。

But there are these areas of the midline thalamus, basically square in the middle of the brain, that basically make the decision among three choices.

你可以前进，可以原地不动，也可以后退。

You can go forward, you can stay in the same place, or you can retreat.

捕食者也在判断：它们是在朝我靠近吗？

And predators are also assessing, are they moving forward toward me?

它们是保持静止，还是在后退？

Are they staying still, or are they retreating?

所有物种的大脑都算“复杂”，但做这些决定时往往信息有限。

The brain of all species is "sophisticated" in air quotes, but it has to make these decisions often with limited amounts of information.

所以这些更像是开关，而不是连续变化。

So these are more like switches than a continuum.

Lindsay和其他人已经识别了大脑中的许多这类开关。

And Lindsay has identified a number of those switches in the brain, she and others.

所以熊可能是在关注：他是朝我走来，还是有别的意图？

And so the bears are probably paying attention to is he moving forward toward me or something else?

他是保持不动，还是在从我面前后退？

Is he staying still, or is he retreating from me?

它们得知道这是否与自己有关。

They have to know if it has something to do with them.

你也一样。

And you have to do the same.

你在路上遇到一只美洲狮。

You encounter a mountain lion along a trail.

人们会说：“嗯，别跑。

People will say, "Well, don't run.

让自己显得大些。”

Get large."

好的。

Okay.

但一旦它靠得足够近，你就得做出决定了。

But at some point, if it gets close enough, you've got to make a decision.

是的。

Yes.

你是要打还是要跑，对吧？

Are you going to fight or are you going to run, right?

或者你也可以躺下装死。

Or you could lay and play dead.

这些可以说是改变人生的决定。

So these are life-altering decisions, so to speak.

而且这些计算并不是特别复杂。

And the computations are not super sophisticated.

这无疑与我们之前讨论的所有内容都相关，无论是前中扣带皮层还是前额叶皮层，脑区会增强活动，并超过阈值，之后相关的神经回路就会被启动。

And this is no doubt relevant to everything we've been talking about, whether it's anterior midcingulate cortex or prefrontal cortex, is that brain areas will ramp up their activity and cross thresholds after which circuits are set in motion.

所以有一个这样的累积过程。

So there's this kind of buildup.

虽然这里有一些名称现在不重要，但确实有一个信号累积超过阈值的过程，然后会采取或抑制某个行动。

There's names that don't matter right now for this, but there's this buildup of chatter that exceeds a threshold, and then a certain action is taken or withheld.

所以那些念头，比如我刚刚说了我会做，所以我就要去做。

And so the thoughts about, I just said I would, so I'm going to do it.

我想赶回去看我的孩子出生。

I want to get back and see my kid being born.

天哪，如果我不这么做，我会感到非常羞愧。

Gosh, I would feel such shame if I didn't do this.

这些都是通往同一组选择的不同路径：我是继续前进，还是停下来，还是放弃？

These are different paths into the same sets of do I go forward, do I stop, or do I quit?

在这种情况下，退缩就等于放弃。

Retreating, in this case, would be quitting.

所以有时候把那些比较复杂的东西，比如心理层面和神经生物学层面的，拆解到最后，你会发现你其实只有三个选择。

And so it's sometimes fun to break things that are somewhat sophisticated, the psychological and the neurobiological, into ultimately, you got three choices.

在人生中的任何时刻，你可以选择前进，也可以选择停下来，或者根据情况选择撤退或放弃。

You can go forward in life or at any moment, you can stop or you can retreat or quit, as the case may be.

有时候，那反而是救命的决定。

And sometimes that's the life-saving decision.

完全同意。

100%.

我想快速插个广告，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我很高兴地告诉大家，AG1刚刚推出了他们的最新配方，AG1 Pro。

I'm excited to share that AG1 has just launched their newest formulation, AG1 Pro.

AG1 Pro在原来的AG1配方基础上，也就是包含维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原的配方，添加了三种重要的新成分：一水肌酸、HMB钙和锌肌肽。

AG1 Pro takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients: creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine.

每份含有五克一水肌酸，有助于增强肌肉力量和表现，同时还能促进大脑健康。

Each serving has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance, as well as brain health.

HMB钙有助于肌肉恢复，减少肌肉流失，锌肌肽则有助于保护和改善肠道内壁。

Calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.

这三种成分都有充分的科学依据支持，所以我很高兴看到它们被加入到现有的AG1配方中。

All three of these ingredients have compelling science to support them, and therefore, I love seeing them added to the existing AG1 formula.

你们大多数人可能知道，我已经每天服用AG1差不多14年了。

As most of you know, I've been taking AG1 every day for nearly 14 years now.

我开始服用它的时候，甚至还不知道播客是什么。

I started taking it long before I even knew what a podcast was.

这是个很棒的产品，现在换了新的AG1 Pro配方就更好了。

It's a great product, and it's now made even better with the new AG1 Pro formula.

如果你想试试AG1 Pro，可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman，那里有特别优惠。

If you would like to try AG1 Pro, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

AG1会随你的首次订阅免费赠送一瓶omega-3辅酶Q10。

AG1 is giving away a free bottle of omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first subscription.

再说一次，去drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅AG1就能免费获得一瓶omega-3辅酶Q10。

Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.

我们回到刚才的辐条话题——

Let's get back on the spokes-

对

Yes

……聊一会儿，然后——

... for a moment, and then-

我们已经聊了三个辐条了，是不是？

And we've done three spokes already, haven't we?

那我们就继续往前推进。

Then we'll plow forward.

对，我说过我会做的。

Yeah, so I said I would.

我不想让人失望。

I don't want to disappoint.

是的。

Yep.

而且我确实有一件非常想参与的事。

And I've got something I really want to be there for.

所以，这就是我们到目前为止提到的内容。

So that's sort of what we touched on so far.

那如果换成这样呢：'我要做这件事，我会继续做下去，因为你觉得我做不到，因为他们觉得我做不到。'

How about, "I'm going to do this, I'm going to continue to do this because you said I couldn't, because they thought I couldn't."

我觉得这种说法在网上特别常见。

I find this one to be very prominent in the online space.

但这句话也有个特点，就是当人们变得越来越优秀、成就越来越多的时候，反而听到这种话的机会越来越少。

But it's also one that, as people get better and better and achieve more and more, they hear less and less.

所以，这对处于劣势的人来说是一份大礼。

So this is the great gift to the underdog.

你有了动力。

You have fuel.

他们亲手把动力送到你手上。

They're handing you fuel.

但当你赢了，显然做到了，那话就会变成，哎呀，他们资源充足或者什么的。

But when you win, you've obviously done it, then it turns to, well, they had all the right resources or something.

但换这个说法呢？

But how about this?

有没有人对你说过，“绝对不可能”，这反而激起了你内心的某种东西，比如，现在绝对……就像，谢谢你。

Has anyone ever said to you, "There's just no way," and that sparked something in you like, now it absolute... Like, thank you.

他们刚给了你一张空白支票。

They just handed you a blank check.

这样说最贴切了。

Is the best way to put it.

确实如此。

Exactly that.

我很喜欢你说的这一点，因为在我整个职业生涯中，这种激励越来越少了，因为怀疑我的人越来越少，我几乎有点像是，‘哦。’

And I love what you said there, because throughout my career, that's become less and less useful because less people doubt me, and I'm almost like, "Oh."

所以环绕大不列颠岛的游泳可能是最大的挑战，我很喜欢那次，因为视频被放到了YouTube上。

So the swim around Great Britain was probably the biggest one, and I loved that because it went on YouTube.

我们每周都发视频日志。

We were doing weekly vlogs.

我们发出的第一个视频日志，下面的评论我都一条条看完了，因为太兴奋了。

The very first vlog that we put out there, the comments, and I read through all of them, because I was so excited.

我当时想，‘哦，这肯定会很棒。’

I was like, "Oh, this is going to be brilliant."

评论里全都是，‘他太壮了，根本不像个游泳运动员。

Comments were just like, "He's far too big to be a swimmer.

我觉得他游到100公里就会放弃了。

I think he's going to give up after 100 kilometers.

他连南海岸都到不了。

He's not going to even make it on the south coast."

我全都看了，每条评论都读了。

All of them, and I read them.

有趣的是，大概五年前吧，我回去看，发现有人在所有评论下面回复说：'这条预言可没应验啊，对吧？'

What's actually interesting is, I think it was like five years ago, I ended up going back, and somebody had commented on all of these comments and gone, "Well, this didn't age very well, did it?"

我当时就觉得，这让我特别开心。

And I was like, that made me feel so good.

但有意思的是，环游大不列颠之后，大家就不再怀疑我了，我反而有点怀念那种感觉。

But what's so interesting is once we swam around Great Britain, people stopped doubting me, and so I missed that.

我们说要去环游冰岛的时候，大家都说：'我觉得这次你能行。'

When we said we were going to swim around Iceland, everyone was like, "I think you can do it this time."

我心想：'那些黑我的人去哪了？

And I'm like, "Where are the guys who were trolling me?

我需要那些人回来。

I need them back."

不过，是的。

But yeah.

当然，环游英国那次，百分之百，回到那些质疑的声音上，那是很重要的一次。

Certainly around Great Britain, 100%, going back to the spokes, that was a big one.

那你是不是在这些事情之间动态切换，因为某一种会慢慢失去让你坚持下去的力量？

So are you moving dynamically between these things because one sort of loses its potency to keep you going?

这正是我也用的词。

That is exactly the word I use as well.

任何能刺激你的东西，就像在脑子里过了一遍，就像换电视频道一样。

Anything that stimulates you, it's almost like going through your head, like when you're changing the TV channel.

有时候某个东西可能管用，而且变得非常有力，然后你就在游，而我在游是因为别人说我做不到。

And sometimes something can work, and it becomes so potent, and you're swimming, and I'm swimming because people said I couldn't.

这太棒了。

This is amazing.