利用红光改善新陈代谢及LED的有害影响 | Glen Jeffery博士

所以它真的会穿过皮肤吗？

So it's going to literally go through the skin?

它会穿过皮肤，我们来做个简单的实验。

It goes through the skin, and let's take the simple experiment.

这个简单实验就是，让人脱掉衣服站在阳光下，然后在他们的背部放一个辐射计。

The simple experiment was, you strip people off, and you stand them in front of sunlight, and you put a radiometer on their back.

告诉我们什么是辐射计。

Tell us what a radiometer is.

辐射计是用来测量通过的能量总量的，明白吗？

A radiometer measures the amount of energy coming through, okay?

我们还会在你背部放一个光谱仪，用来测量波长。

And then we put a spectrometer on your back as well, which tells us the wavelength.

我们从中得到的数据显示，有百分之几的能量从背部透出。

So what we get from that, the reading we get from that, is that a few percent, a few percent is coming out the back.

现在我们不应该关注这个，而应该关注其余能量的去向，因为它不是从皮肤表面反射回来的，反射回来的很少。

Now we shouldn't concentrate on that, what we should concentrate on is what happens to the rest, because it's not bouncing back from the surface of the skin, very little bounces back.

它被吸收了。

It's being absorbed.

太神奇了。

Amazing.

这确实很神奇。

Which is amazing.

嗯，这非常有趣。

Well, it's very interesting.

从物理学的角度来看，这很有道理，很神奇，对吧？

It makes sense, based on the physics of it, it's amazing, right?

长波长的光实际上穿透了我们的皮肤，在内部器官中反弹，其中一部分从另一侧穿出。

That the long wavelength light is actually penetrating our skin, bouncing around in our internal organs, and some's getting out the other side.

我认为这会让很多人感到惊讶。

I think that's gonna surprise a number of people.

在任何类似的讨论中，我们都需要谈谈信息孤岛的问题。

In any conversation like this, we need to talk about silos.

人们从不同角度看待问题。

People coming from different angles at a problem.

我有鲍勃·福斯伯里与我合作的便利。

And I have the advantage of Bob Fosbury working with me.

鲍勃曾是欧洲航天局分析系外行星大气层的负责人。

Bob was lead for analyzing atmospheres on exoplanets with the European Space Agency.

他在欧洲使用哈勃望远镜方面贡献良多，他的许多光谱仪也搭载在詹姆斯·韦伯望远镜上。

He had a lot to do with the European use of Hubble, and a lot of his spectrometers were up on the James Webb Telescope.

让其他领域的人参与进来确实有极大优势。

Now, are super advantages for having someone from another silo to come in.

但也存在一些相当恼人的问题。

But there are also really annoying issues as well.

于是我说：鲍勃，我真的很想测量光是否能穿透人体。

So I said, Bob, I really want to measure whether light goes through the body.

他却回答：这我们早就知道了。

And he said, We all know that.

算了吧。

Forget it.

这是在浪费时间。

It's a waste of time.

你知道的。

You know.

我说，你以为你根据物理原理就了解这个吗？

And I said, You think you know it based on principles of physics?

我并不了解。

I don't know it.

事实上，我认为只有等它发表出来，所有人都知道并能讨论时，你才算真正了解。

And actually, I don't think you know something until it's published and everybody knows it and can talk about it.

所以鲍勃过来时说，是啊，长波长的光肯定能穿透。

So yeah, Bob came along and said, Yeah, long wavelength has to go through.

但这需要被证实。

But it needed demonstrating.

鲍勃确实注意到了这一点，并且开始对此产生了更大的兴趣，因为他随后翻遍了自己的衣柜，从里面取出不同层次的衣物，将长波光放在衣物后面，观察什么能穿透衣物。

Now the other thing that Bob did pick up on this, and did start to get a lot more interested in it, because then he went through his wardrobe, and he took different layers of clothing from his wardrobe, and put long wavelength lights behind them, so what goes through clothing?

令人惊奇的是，长波光确实能穿透衣物。

And the amazing thing is, long wavelength light goes through clothing.

它能穿透衣物。

It goes through clothing.

能穿透任何衣物吗？

Goes through Any clothing?

嗯，如果你想穿橡胶衣服，我想不行，但如果是普通的T恤，我记得他用了六层T恤做实验。

Well, you want to wear rubber, I think not, But if you want to wear your standard t shirt, I think he used six layers, t shirt.

颜色有影响吗？

And does color matter?

比如我现在穿的是黑色衬衫

Like I'm wearing a black shirt right

不，完全没有任何区别。

No, makes no difference whatsoever.

还有我们不知道的另一件事，这一点极其重要，因为我们在这里并不清楚，就是这种长波光会在各处反射。

And the other thing we do not know, and this is terribly important, as we don't know here, is this long wavelength light bounces around all over the place.

所以我们有一些长波光源，我想我正在那里照射这种长波光，对吧？

So we've got some long wavelength light sources, and I think I'm shining this long wavelength light there, right?

然后当我架起仪器时，发现它到处都是。

And then when I put my instrumentation up, it's all over the place.

在体内。

Inside the body.

在体内，在房间里。

Inside the body, inside the room.

它四处散射，我无法控制它。

It's going every I can't control it.

除非我开始用铝箔之类的材料来阻挡。所以当我们考虑长波光的优势时，你知道，我们讨论使用这个或那个设备，还需要考虑的是，好吧，你有一个小设备发出一束小光线，它会在整个房间里四处反射。

Not unless I start putting materials like aluminum foil to block So when we think about long wavelength light, its advantages, you know, we talk about using this device or that device, what we also need to think about is, okay, you've got a small device with a small beam of light going here, it's bouncing all around the room.

它会从不同角度进入你身体的不同部位。

It's coming in from a different angle, in different parts of your body.

但就能量而言，最集中的地方确实是在...不过重点在于

But certainly most concentrated in terms of energy, at But the point

你不能假设点光源是长波光的唯一来源，如果你处在一个封闭空间里的话。

you cannot assume that the point source is the only source of that long wavelength light, if you're in a confined space.

好吧，让我们借此机会讨论一个相关研究，之后我们再回到那个——暂且称之为'光线穿透身体研究'的话题。

Well, let's use that as an opportunity to talk about a related study, and then we'll circle back to the, let's call it the light passing through the body study.

我要提到的这项研究，我认为会让人非常感兴趣，甚至有点震惊，而且非常非常酷，因为它具有可操作性——你们的研究表明，即使只用长波光照射皮肤的一小部分，也会改变血糖反应。

The study I'm about to mention, I think is going to be so interesting to people and a little bit shocking and very, very cool, because it's actionable, which is you did a study showing that even if you illuminate just a small portion of the skin with long wavelength light, it changes the blood glucose response.

字面意思上，用红光照射皮肤就能改变血糖反应。

Literally blood sugar response is altered by shining red light on the skin.

多年来，网上有些角落会流传这样的说法：'哦，你知道在户外进食对身体的影响与室内不同'。

And for years, there were these, let's call them corners of the internet that would say things like, oh, you know, when you eat out of doors, it has a different effect on your body than when you eat indoors.

但那里变量太多了，对吧？

But there are too many variables there, right?

因为在户外进食通常是在野餐时，周围有绿植，人们还在社交。

Because when you eat out of doors, typically it's at a picnic, and then you have greenery, and they're socializing.

对，对，对。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

而且没人会资助一项正规研究来逐一分析野餐和室内食堂的每个变量差异。

And no one's gonna fund a proper study to look at, you know, to parse every variable in a picnic versus an indoor cafeteria.

坦白说，也不值得花纳税人的钱。

And not worth the taxpayer dollars, frankly.

你们做了正确的研究，就是用光照某个部位，是背部对吧？

You did the right study, which was to shine light on, what was it, the back?

是背部的一小块区域，没错。

It was on a small area of the back, yeah.

我必须首先声明清楚，这个想法的原创者是我的同事迈克·波纳。

And I must make it very clear, first of all, the person whose idea this was, was my colleague, Mike Powner.

迈克的思维过程非常非常清晰。

And Mike's thought processes were very, very clear.

当时我们正长途驱车去伦敦郊外做研究，清晨五点就出发——这种旅程特别适合闲聊，适合天马行空的创意，适合意识流的碰撞，而这在科研中往往至关重要。

We were on a long drive to do some research well out of London, And that's a great time for, because the journey starts at five in the morning, it's a great time for gossip, it's a great time for wild ideas, for streams of consciousness, which sometimes are very important in science.

是迈克对我说，如果我们让线粒体更努力工作，它们就需要葡萄糖和氧气。

And it was Mike who said to me, you know, if we make mitochondria work harder, then they need glucose, and they need oxygen.

所以暂停一下，让开车的格伦跟上这个想法。

So pause while Glen, who's driving, kind of has to catch up on this idea.

在智力上我通常比他落后一英里。

I'm generally about a mile behind him intellectually.

然后我说，对，对。

And I went, yeah, yeah.

于是他说，我们别让自己看起来像个傻瓜。

So he said, well let's not make idiots of ourselves.

我们用大黄蜂来做实验吧。

Let's do it with bumblebees.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们第一个实验对象当然是增加大黄蜂。

So our first experiment was to increase Of course, bumblebees.

当然，

Of course,

为什么不呢？

why not?

第一个实验对象是熊蜂，因为不涉及人类。

First experiment was on bumblebees, because it didn't involve people.

操作起来很简单。

It was simple to do.

我们只是让熊蜂饿了一晚上，然后给它们做了标准血糖测试。

And all we did was, we starve bumblebees overnight, gave them a standard blood glucose test.

要知道，数量很多。

Know, a lot of them.

听起来比研究人类困难多了。

Sounds a lot harder than working on humans.

不，并不难。

No, it's not.

你只需给它们一点葡萄糖，因为那里发生反应，它们摄入后血糖就会上升。

You just give them a little bit of glucose, because happen there, and they go, and their blood glucose goes up.

我们给它们照射红光或蓝光。

We gave them red light or blue light.

当给予红光时，它们的血糖上升幅度较小。

We give them red light and their blood glucose does not go up as much.

而给予蓝光时，它们的血糖会升得很高。

We give them blue light and their blood glucose goes very high.

所以它们消耗了更多能量。

So they're using more of the energy.

没错。

Yeah.

因此在红光条件下。

So In the red light condition.

在红光条件下如此，但在蓝光条件下，我们减缓了它们线粒体的活动，导致更多葡萄糖在体内循环。

In the red light condition, but in the blue light condition, we're slowing their mitochondria down, and so there is more glucose flowing around.

我得说明一下，采集蜜蜂的血液有点困难，但基本上就是拔掉一根触角，然后挤压蜜蜂，就能得到一小块

I should say that sampling the blood in a bee is a little bit difficult, but you basically pull off one of the antennae and you squeeze a bee, and you get a little piece of

蜜蜂

the bee

爱好者们，蜜蜂爱好者们。

lovers Bee out lovers.

蜜蜂爱好者。

Bee lovers.

但你知道，我们去了药店，买了那种几美元就能买到的标准血糖检测仪。

But, you know, we went to the chemist, and we bought just the standard blood glucose test that you can get for a few dollars.

我们得到了结果。

We got a result.

因此，值得继续推进。

Therefore, it's worth moving forward.

因此，我们获得了伦理许可。

Therefore, we got the ethical permission.

因此，我们进行了专家实验。

Therefore, we did the expert.

我无法进行蓝光实验。

I can't do the experiment on blue light.

我认为那是不道德的。

I regard that as unethical.

但真的吗？

But Really?

是的。

Yeah.

我们不是整天都处在蓝光下吗？

Don't We're under blue light all day.

我完全相信，整天暴露在蓝光或短波长光线下会以有害的方式改变血糖水平。

I'm absolutely convinced that being under blue light or short wavelength shifted light all day is altering blood glucose in ways that are detrimental.

但无论如何，在我对此发表长篇大论之前，人类身上发生了什么？

But in any case, before I rant about that, what happened in humans?

那么在人类中，

So in the humans,

我们做了一个标准的血糖耐量测试，这过程相当难受。

we did a standard blood glucose tolerance test, which is horrible.

你得让人们空腹过夜，然后来实验室喝下这一大杯难以下咽的葡萄糖溶液。

So you get people to starve overnight, they come in, they drink this big sort of cup of vile glucose.

这样我们就能让他们的体内血糖水平急剧升高。

So we really pump up the glucose in their body.

然后我们定期刺破他们的手指，采集血液样本，观察他们的血糖水平如何变化。

And then we prick their fingers at regular intervals, and sample their blood, and see how their blood glucose level changes.

你的血糖水平大约会在40到60分钟内达到峰值。

And your blood glucose level will peak in about forty to sixty minutes.

这个实验很难找到受试者。

It's hard getting subjects for this one.

我们还在他们鼻子里插了根管子，以便检测他们的氧气消耗量。

And we also put a tube up their nose so we could detect how much oxygen they were consuming.

你这是在找朋友帮忙，我甚至把我儿子也拉来当实验对象了。

You're calling on friends, I mean, I even dragged my son in as a subject for that one.

结果非常明显——当我们事先用红光脉冲刺激受试者的线粒体时。

The result, when we gave people a burst of red light beforehand to stimulate their mitochondria, was super clear.

这一点毫不含糊。

It wasn't ambiguous.

血糖水平确实上升了，但峰值远不如未接受红光照射时那么剧烈。

The blood glucose levels went up, but they didn't peak anywhere near as seriously as they did without the red light.

有人告诉我，血糖水平本身并不一定是需要特别担忧的问题。

Now, I'm told that the level of your blood glucose is not necessarily a massive issue for concern.

真正值得关注的不是血糖是否会升高。

What isn't an issue for concern is it's spiking.

而是它升高的幅度。

How much it spikes.

我记得峰值降低幅度超过了20%。

The reduction in the spike was of the order of, it was just over 20%, if I remember correctly.

光线是照射在身体的哪个部位？

Where was the light shown on the body?

是照射在背部。

It was shown on the back.

覆盖的面积...我忘记具体占身体表面积的百分比了。

And it covered, I forgot what the percentage of the body area was.

这个计算我做了四五遍，因为面积小得离谱。

I did this calculation four or five times, because it was ridiculously small.

所以我们虽然只刺激了身体非常有限的区域，却得到了全身性的反应。

So we were stimulating a very limited area of the body, but we got a systemic response.

那一小块皮肤的线粒体不可能单独产生这种效果。

There was no way that the mitochondria in that little patch of skin was having that effect.

但这符合一个更广泛的观点：所有线粒体是作为一个共同体在运作。

But it fits into a wider notion that all these mitochondria act as a community.

这个原理我们现在已经知道了。

Now we now know that.

这些信号来自各个不同的角落。

That's coming all from different corners.

它们共同行动，协同工作。

They act, they do things together.

它们需要一点时间来进行交流，但最终会协同行动。

It takes them a little time to have a conversation about it, but they act together.

如果我们进行的实验持续一到两个小时，这个时间足够它们完成这种交流。

And if we're doing something which was over one to two hours, that's long enough for them to hold that conversation.

我很想了解更多关于这方面的信息。

I'd love to know more about that.

你是否记得实验对象是否能感受到红外线产生的热量？

Do you recall whether the subjects could feel heat from the infrared light?

好的，所以他们感受不到热量，这也排除了某种潜在的安慰剂效应。

Okay, so they're not feeling heat, so that removes also a potential placebo effect of some sort.

你大概记得被照射区域的面积是多少吗？

You recall just roughly what the area of illumination was?

你知道吗？

Was it, you know?

这在出版物中有记载，不过我们这样来看吧。

It's in the publication, but let's go like this.

好的，对于正在听的各位来说，大概是一个4×6的长方形。

Okay, so for those just listening, maybe like a four by six rectangle.

4×6的长方形说得通。

Four by six rectangle makes sense.

4×6英寸。

Four by six inches.

是啊，考虑到你来自英国，我们这些用公制单位的人在这里找到了共同点。

Yeah, all those metric system We're folks out on common ground here, given you're from The UK.

但我们并非唯一发现这一点的，只是其他人用红光发现了隐藏在不同障碍后的现象。

But we're not unique in finding this, it's just that other people are finding things with red light that are sitting behind different walls.

约翰·梅特拉法尼斯在澳大利亚完成了大部分研究，他通过药物几乎在一夜之间就能在灵长类动物身上诱发帕金森病。

So John Metrafanis, who did most of his research in Australia, he induces Parkinson's disease in primates, which you can do pretty much overnight with a drug.

然后他用红光照射身体的不同部位。

And then he was giving red light to different parts of the body.

帕金森病起源于脑干深处的一个非常小的核团。

Now Parkinson's disease originates from a very small nucleus deep in the brainstem.

但他通过照射腹部的光线，非常显著地减轻了这些灵长类动物的帕金森症状。

But he was reducing the symptoms of Parkinson's disease in these primates very significantly with lights that were being shone on the abdomen.

所以，单独看其中任何一个案例。

So, in any one of these you take in isolation.

这类研究有很多，你会觉得'嗯，有可能'。

And there are many of these studies, and you go, Yeah, maybe.

是啊。

Yeah.

他认为这是什么原理？

What does he think it was doing?

我的意思是，这并没有挽救帕金森病中退化的多巴胺神经元，但也许挽救了通路中的某些组成部分？

I mean, it's not rescuing the dopamine neurons that degenerate in Parkinson's, but maybe it's rescuing components of the pathway?

可能是拯救了通路中的某些组成部分。

It could be rescuing components of the pathway.

我认为我们知道红光——我们使用这个术语非常不严谨，或许我们不该这样。

I think that we know that red light, and we're using that term very loosely, and perhaps we shouldn't.

我们知道长波光能降低体内细胞死亡的规模。

We know that long wavelength light reduces the magnitude of cell death in the body.

细胞死亡通常是由线粒体启动的，即细胞凋亡。

Cell death is very often initiated, apoptosis, by mitochondria.

当线粒体受够了——我把它们看作电池——当电池电量低到一定程度时，它们就会举手示意：是时候死亡了。

When mitochondria get fed up, and I see them as batteries, when the charge on the battery goes down low enough, they put their hand up and they say, Time to die.

而且我认为它们实际上会呈现一种分子层面的'吃掉我'信号。

And I think they actually present a molecular eat me signal.

是的。

Yes.

这很有趣。

Which is interesting.

就像，当我们谈论细胞死亡时，我们通常会把它想象成从高声呐喊到低声呜咽，然后被清理掉的过程。

Like, you know, when we talk about cells dying, we think about it as a, you know, sort of, go from a shout to a whimper and then they get cleaned up.

它们不仅仅是死亡，实际上还会通过这种'吃我'信号主动请求自我消亡。

Like they just, they die, but they actually, they solicit for their own death with this eat me signal.

对，对。

Yeah, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

它们会被调理素化——对于不太了解免疫系统的人来说，调理素化是类似的过程。

They'll get opsonized, for the people that, don't think about the immune system, opsonization, similar things.

那么如果我理解正确的话，他先是对这些多巴胺神经元施加损伤，然后通过腹部照射红光来抵消部分可能发生的退化。

So if I understand correctly, he induced an insult to these dopamine neurons, and then he used red light shined on the abdomen to offset some of the degeneration that would have occurred.

好的，明白了。

Yeah, Okay.

这再次符合那些尚未被系统整合的广泛研究领域的发现。

Now that, again, fits into the wider spectrum of other research that's not put together.

这位是约翰，约翰在红光治疗痴呆症和帕金森病领域是重要领军人物，他的研究很多基于灵长类动物模型，这意味着具有很高的有效性。

So that was John, and John has been a big leader in red light dementia and Parkinson's disease, and a lot of it in primate models, which means it's got a lot of validity to it.

是的，它们和我们很相似。

Yeah, they're similar to us.

它们和人类很相似。

They're similar to them.

我们做的另一个实验是：人的一生中会失去视网膜中三分之一的视杆细胞。

Another experiment we did was, over life, you will lose a third of your rod photoreceptors in your retina.

也许该先给大家解释一下什么是视杆系统。

Maybe just explain for people what the rod system is.

好的，视杆系统是指占多数的感光细胞——视杆细胞。

Okay, rod system is the majority of photoreceptors are rods.

它们是你在暗适应状态下使用的感光细胞，不过如今我们大多数人很少处于这种状态了。

They are the receptors that you use when you're dark adapted, which a lot of us aren't very much these days.

我们还有负责色彩和强光感知的视锥细胞。

So we've got our cones, which deal with color and deal with bright light.

当我们调暗灯光时，就开始使用视杆细胞。

Then as we turn the lights down, we start to use our rods.

所以有大量的视杆细胞，相对较少的视锥细胞。

So loads and loads of rods, relatively few cones.

我通常这样告诉学生：就像过去人们床边没有智能手机时，半夜醒来需要上厕所。

What I usually tell students, this is like in the old days when everyone didn't have a smartphone near their bed, you wake up in the middle of the night and you need to use the restroom.

你能摸黑找到卫生间。

You can navigate to the restroom.

可能会开卫生间的灯（我不建议这样做，这会抑制褪黑激素分泌，除非是红灯），或者远足时不带我们称为手电筒的东西——格伦，你们叫它火炬。

You might flick the light on in the restroom, I don't recommend doing that, it'll quash your melatonin, unless it's a red light, or you go out on a hike and you don't bring what we call flashlight, Glenn, you guys call it torch.

对，没错。

Yes, yeah.

但当你返回时，眼睛开始适应黑暗，虽然天色渐暗，你仍能看到小径轮廓，虽然星光未现，但正如你所说，通过暗适应能看清必要的东西。

But as you come back, your eyes start to adapt, it's getting dark, you can still see the outline of the trail, there's not starlight yet, but you're able to, as you say, dark adapt, and you can see enough of what you need to see.

这时你正在使用视杆细胞系统。

You're using your rod system.

是的。

Yeah.

关键在于视杆细胞数量极其庞大。

The key thing here is rods are very, very numerous.

视锥细胞则不然。

Cones are not so.

那么会发生什么呢？比如我们选取老年动物，每天让它们暴露在红光下？

So what happens then, for instance, if we take aging animals, and we just expose them to red light every day?

我们给它们照射一阵红光。

We give them a burst of red light.

然后统计它们年老时拥有的视杆细胞数量。

And then we count the number of rods they've got when they reach old age.

结果非常明确。

And the result is super clear.

我们减缓了视网膜细胞的死亡速度。

We have reduced the pace of cell death in the retina.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以红光正在影响线粒体。

So red light is affecting mitochondria.

线粒体具有发出细胞死亡信号的能力。

Mitochondria have the ability to signal cell death.

我们正在降低这些细胞死亡的概率。

And we're drawing back the probability of that cell dying.

我们在小鼠身上做了这个实验，用了很多小鼠。

Now, we did that in mice, we did it on a lot of mice.

这是个极其艰巨的实验，要让动物一直存活下去。

It was a killer of an experiment, to keep animals going forever.

然后我基本上强迫我的一个研究生去一、二、三、四地数感光细胞的α片段。

And then I forced one of my graduate students basically to go one, two, three, four, and count photoreceptor alpha segments.

她是个英雄。

She was a hero.

因此我们可以利用红光来减缓细胞死亡的速度。

So we can use red light to reduce the pace of cell death.

所以我对约翰·梅特罗法尼斯能够减缓黑质中细胞死亡的速度并不感到太惊讶，正是这个核团导致了帕金森病的发生。

So I am not too surprised that John Metrophanis would have reduced the pace of cell death in the substantia nigra, that nucleus that gives rise to Parkinson's disease.

我看到许多不同实验室的研究结果都支持这类观点。

I'm seeing that coming out of loads of different labs, things that are all consistent with that kind of story.

另一个我认为可以开始探讨的问题是，假设你的线粒体功能不良——这是个非常宽泛的说法。

The other thing that I think you can start to address is, if you've got bad mitochondria, say, very loose term.

就像帕金森病患者确实存在线粒体功能不良的情况。

If you've got bad mitochondria, as you do have in Parkinson's disease.

它们状态很差，功能运转不佳，正在走向死亡。

They're bad, they're not functioning very well, on their way to death.

它们是否会影响身体的其他部位？

Are they influencing other parts of your body?

说到帕金森病患者，你会认为他们都会出现运动障碍。

Parkinson's patients, you think, well okay, they're all going to have movement disorders.

但实际上，许多帕金森患者体内还伴随着许多其他问题。

But in actual fact, a lot of Parkinson's patients have a lot of other things that are going on in them.

我们倾向于认为，正如有益信息可以传递给线粒体并在群体内共享，有害信息同样可以传播。

And we're minded to think that as good information can be passed to mitochondria, and can be shared in that community, so can bad information.

要知道，如果你严重干扰了某一处的线粒体，其他部位也会随之产生变化。

You know, if you really upset mitochondria in one place, then other things are changing in different places.

所以这里的关键结论（这么说并不存在争议，我听过很多人这样表述，虽然最初并非我的观点）是：它们是一个共同体。

So the big takeaway here, and it's not controversial to say it, I've heard lots of people say it, and I didn't say it originally, is that they're a community.

你不能孤立地对待它们。

You can't deal with them in isolation.

即使跨越身体不同区域的细胞，它们也是一个共同体。

Even across cells in different areas of the body, they're a community.

它们确实是一个共同体。

They are a community.

很可能是通过分泌某些相互支持的特定物质来实现的。

Probably by secreting certain things that support each other.

也许我听说过一些证据表明线粒体实际上可以从细胞中释放出来。

Maybe I've heard some evidence that mitochondria can actually be released from cells.

哦，是的。

Oh yeah.

虽然不完全相同，但与神经递质在细胞间释放并传递信息的方式有所不同。

Different, although not entirely different than neurotransmitters are released between cells and communicate between cells.

当我们思考线粒体可能具有细菌起源时非常有趣——究竟是我们的细胞利用了它们，还是它们利用了我们的细胞，这个方向性问题至今仍未明确。

Very interesting when one thinks about mitochondria of having maybe bacterial origin, again, that our cells co opted or they co opted us, we don't know that, again, the direction there.

我想问长波长光能穿透多深以及能穿透哪些组织。

I have a question about how far long wavelength light can penetrate and through what tissues.

我意识到在我们讨论的研究中，是通过背部接受长波长光照射来降低血糖反应。

I realized that in the studies we've been talking about, it's long wavelength light exposure to the back, lowering the blood glucose response.

是的。

Yes.

或者照射腹部，可以抵消与帕金森模型相关的某些退化现象。

Or to the abdomen, offsetting some of the degeneration, as it relates to this Parkinson's model.

如果我拿一个长波长的光靠近头部，它能穿透头骨吗？

If I were to take a long wavelength light and put it close to my head, would it penetrate the skull?

哦，当然可以。

Oh, definitely.

如果你观察一个长波光源，这已经发表过了，鲍勃·福斯伯里做过实验，他把手放在光源上。

If you look at a long wave light source, and again this is published, Bob Fosbury did this, he put his hand on one.

光线直接穿透了他的手，但有趣的是你看不到骨头。

Comes straight through his hand, but the interesting thing is you can't see the bones.

它能穿透骨头。

It's passing through the bone.

这促使我找来几个头骨进行研究，确实如此。

So that led me to go into grabbing a few skulls, and yeah.

骨头对它的影响其实微乎其微。

It's really not affected that much by bone.

我曾和剑桥大学的一些听力学家讨论过，他们想用红光治疗，当时好像正在研究头颅之类的样本。

I was talking to some audiology guys at, in Cambridge, who wanted to use red light, and they were taking, I think, heads or something, and looking at them.

他们用红光照射眼睛，然后说我们能在耳朵里看到它。

And they were shining red light in the eye, and they say, we can see it in the ear.

这不是我能看到的，反之亦然。

That's not what I can see, and vice versa.

所以有些东西是红光无法穿透的。

So there are things that red light doesn't go through.

它会被脱氧血液吸收。

So it is absorbed by deoxygenated blood.

因此你能得到手上或头部静脉的绝佳图像。

So you get fantastic pictures of your veins in your hand, or in your head.

但最明显的误区是认为长波光会被像头骨这样厚的东西阻挡，答案是否定的。

But the most obvious thing that you think is that long wavelength light will be blocked by something thick, like a skull, the answer is no.

回到我们之前关于海洋呈现蓝色的例子，因为蓝光被反射回来而红光被吸收。

So going back to our example of the ocean appearing blue, because of blue light getting reflected back and red light getting absorbed.

我认为这一点在人们脑海中需要重点强调，因为人们会看到图像——我会放一个链接到你最近发表的关于红光和其他（抱歉）长波光（不仅仅是红光）照射在手上的研究成果。

I think this is very important to kind of double click on in people's minds, because people will see an image for instance, and I'll put a link to it from this recent publication of yours of red light and other, excuse me, long wavelength light, not just red light being shown on a hand.

确实，你看不到骨骼，而是看到了血管系统，这些脱氧的血液。

And indeed you don't see the bones and you see the vasculature, this deoxygenated blood.

当人们在特定波长的光下看到某个结构时，第一反应往往是认为这些结构正在利用光线，但实际上恰恰相反。

When people see a structure under a particular wavelength of light, the kind of reflex is to assume that those structures are the ones that are using the light, but in fact, it's just the exact Exactly the other way around.

你看不见的那些东西才是关键，对吧？

It's the stuff you don't see, right?

光线正在穿透它们。

That it's passing through.

我认为对很多人来说，这有点反直觉。

And I think for a lot of people, that's just kind of counterintuitive.

所以他们会看到静脉的图像，对吧？

So they'll see an image of the veins, right?

看到那些脱氧血液时，他们会说'红光正在影响静脉'，对吧？

During that deoxygenated blood and they'll say, oh, you know, red light is impacting the veins, right?

但有趣的是光线其实穿透了静脉，这本身就很奇妙，而且它还穿透了所有其他组织结构。

But the interesting thing is that it's passing through, that is interesting in itself, but it's passing through all these other structures.

对我来说，当我在阳光明媚的日子外出时，因为阳光包含长波长的光，或者当我靠近一个发射长波长光的设备时，光实际上正在通过头骨深入脑组织的这个概念。

And to me, the idea that when I go out on a sunny day, because the sun includes long wavelength light, or were I to be near a long wavelength light emitting device, that it's actually getting into the deep brain tissue through the skull.

我认为对大多数人来说，光以这种方式穿过固体物质的想法并不直观。

I think for most people, it's just not intuitive to think about light passing through things that are solid in that way.

是的，我也有完全相同的问题。

Yes, and I had exactly the same problem.

我也有完全相同的问题。

I had exactly the same problem.

如果你在一个人头部的一侧放置辐射计或光谱仪来测量能量和波长，在另一侧放置光源，你会得到明确的结果。

If you put a radiometer on spectrometer to measure the energy and the wavelength on one side of someone's head, and a light source on the other side of someone's head, you get a clear result.

有趣的是，这不是一个边缘问题，而是一个非常重要的问题。

Now, interestingly, it's not a sideline, it's actually a very important issue.

伦敦大学学院的生物医学工程师Ilyas Takhtanidis利用了这一点，因为他研究的一部分工作是关于遭受中风的新生儿。

A biomedical engineer, Ilyas Takhtanidis at UCL, has used this because he works on, some of his work is on neonates that have had stroke.

他会对新生儿进行实验，实际上就是做这个实验。

And he takes the neonate and actually does exactly that experiment.

他将红光和特定波长的光线穿过新生儿头部一侧，并记录下从另一侧透出的光线。

He passes red light, wavelengths of light, through the side of the neonate's head and records them coming out the other side.

他可以利用这一数据作为衡量受损大脑中线粒体功能状况的指标。

And he can use that as a metric of how well the mitochondria are functioning in that damaged brain.

他所获得的读数能够预示该新生儿的潜在存活率。

And the readouts that he gets are readouts that are indicative of the potential survival of that neonate.

哇。

Wow.

我觉得这里有很多令人惊叹的地方。

Now, I think there are lots of Wow's here.

首先，他的研究成果已经进入了伦敦一家重要的教学研究医院。

First of all, he's got his work into a major London teaching and research hospital.

他将其应用于儿童治疗，并且我们已经确认这项技术没有危险性。

He's got it into kids, and we've acknowledged that this is not dangerous.

他已经通过了大量伦理委员会的审查。

He's gone through loads of ethics committees.

长波长的光，红色及趋向红外和近红外的光，是非电离性的。

The long wavelength light, red and out towards infrared and near infrared, is non ionizing.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

它不会改变细胞的DNA。

It's not altering the DNA of the cells.

它有助于线粒体的健康功能。

It's contributing to the healthy function of the mitochondria.

请原谅我打断一下。

Forgive me for interrupting.

不，不，不，对吧？

No, no, no, Right?

因为当人们听说有光穿过婴儿的头时——是的。

Because when people hear about light passing through a baby's head- Yeah.

为了让那个孩子更健康，我是说，这太棒了。

In order to make that kid healthier, I mean, it's spectacular.

我很高兴这项研究是在如此优秀的机构中如此谨慎地完成的。

I love that this has been done at such a fine institution and so carefully.

但它之所以安全，是因为那是长波长的光。

But the reason it's safe is because that's long wavelength Long wavelength light.

如果是短波长的光，我们完全不知道会发生什么。

Were this to be short wavelength light, we have no idea what it would be doing.

我是说，婴儿的头骨很薄，紫外线的话，谁知道会怎样？

I mean, babies have very thin skulls, UV would be, who knows?

X光的话，你绝对、永远、永远都不会想这么做。

X-ray certainly you would never ever, ever want to do this.

所以是的，我认为人们必须牢记我们讨论的是长波长的光。对，对。

So yeah, I think it's important that people really remember what we're talking about passing Yeah, yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我认为这一点非常重要，因为我曾通过多个伦理委员会的审查，使用长波光进行各种实验，包括针对存在视力问题的患者群体。

I think that it's a very important point, because I have gone through so many ethics committees to shine long wavelength light, to do various things, Including on people that they've got problems, they've got sight problems, they're patients.

实际上我们也对儿童进行过相关研究。

We've actually also done it with children.

而且我们通过伦理委员会时几乎没有遇到任何质疑。

And we've got through ethics committees really with very, very little comment.

因为许多伦理委员会的成员本身就是物理学家，他们理解这个问题的本质。

Because on many of the ethics committees, they're physicists, and they understand the issue.

现在，相信你们很多人都听我说过，我服用AG1已经超过十年了。

By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade.

确实如此。

And indeed, that's true.

我早在2012年就开始服用AG1，至今仍坚持每天使用，因为据我所知，AG1是市场上品质最高、成分最全面的基础营养补充剂。

The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day is because AG1 is to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还包括益生菌、益生元和适应原，既能弥补饮食中的营养缺口，又能为高强度生活提供支持。

What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet while also providing support for a demanding life.

鉴于AG1中含有益生菌和益生元，它还有助于维持健康的肠道菌群。

Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.

肠道菌群由数万亿微生物组成，它们分布在消化道内，影响着免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康等诸多方面。

The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.

持续服用AG1有助于我的消化，保持免疫系统强健，并确保我的情绪和精神专注力始终处于最佳状态。

Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.

AG1现在推出了三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带水果味。

AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical.

虽然我一直很喜欢AG1的原味，特别是加一点柠檬汁的时候，但我现在特别享受新的浆果口味。

And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular.

味道很棒。

It tastes great.

不过话说回来，我确实喜欢所有口味。

But then again, I do love all the flavors.

如果你想尝试AG1和这些新口味，可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman领取特别优惠。

If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

只需访问drinkag1.com/huberman即可开始体验。

Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.

今天的节目也由Rora赞助播出。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Rora.

Rora生产我认为市面上最优质的水过滤器。

Rora makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market.

虽然令人遗憾，但自来水常含有危害健康的污染物。

It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health.

事实上，环境工作小组2020年研究估计，超过两亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触PFAS化学物质（即永久性化学物质）。

In fact, a 2020 study by the environmental working group estimated that more than two hundred million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals through drinking of tap water.

这些永久性化学物质与激素紊乱、肠道菌群失调、生育问题等诸多健康问题相关。

These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues, such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.

环境工作小组还指出，超过1.22亿美国人饮用的自来水含有高浓度致癌化学物质。

The environmental working group has also shown that over one hundred and twenty two million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer.

正因如此，我非常高兴Roora能成为本期播客的赞助商。

It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Roora as a sponsor of this podcast.

我使用Roora的台面净水系统已近一年。

I've been using the Roora countertop system for almost a year now.

Roora的过滤技术能去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留镁、钙等有益矿物质。

Roora's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium.

无需安装或管道改造。

It requires no installation or plumbing.

采用医用级不锈钢材质，流线型设计完美适配您的台面空间。

It's built from medical grade stainless steel and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop.

事实上，我认为它是厨房里令人愉悦的添置。

In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen.

外观精美，水质甘甜。

It looks great and the water is delicious.

若想尝试Aurora产品，请访问rora.com/huberman获取专属折扣。

If you'd like to try Aurora, you can go to rora.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount.

再次强调，网址是rorra.com/huberman。

Again, that's rora, rorra.com/huberman.

我们来谈谈年龄的两个极端阶段。

Let's talk about the two sort of bookends of age.

你刚才提到了婴儿，我们稍后会再讨论婴儿、儿童和青少年。

You just mentioned babies, and we'll return to babies, children, and youth.

让我们聊聊你在视网膜老化及使用长波光方面的研究。

Let's talk about some of the work you've done on retinal aging, and using long wavelength light.

我在这里用词非常谨慎，因为如果说红色，人们会以为必须看见它，但实际上还有近红外和红外光，通常显示为红外线。

I'm being very careful with my language here, because if I say red, people think you have to see it, but there's red near infrared, and IR, it's typically shown as an IR infrared light.

我认为当我们说长波光时，指的是大约650纳米到900纳米之间的红光波段

And I think we batch those when we say long wavelength light, it's going what, six fifty nanometers would be red, out to, I guess as far as 900 nanometers or

是的，超过900纳米就是红外线了。

Yeah, and then beyond 900 is infrared.

所以我们有近红外和红外两个区间。

So we've got the near infrared, and we've got the infrared.

你说得对，我们需要更清晰地定义这些术语。

Now, you're right, we've got to start defining these terms a little bit more clearly.

但我想我们讨论的几乎所有研究，都涉及视觉终止的波段——大约700纳米附近，而我们所说的近红外波段，出于实际应用考虑，大约延伸到900纳米左右。

But I think for nearly all of the research we're talking about, we're talking about where vision stops, which is around 700, and we're talking about the near infrared, which is, for practical purposes, is going up to around 900.

不过你知道吗，我记得曾用紫外线做过一次实验，那是个非常怪诞的实验，试图验证驯鹿是否能看见紫外光。

But you know, I remember doing an experiment with UV once, and it was an experiment, bizarre experiment, trying to work out if a reindeer could see UV light.

它们能看见吗？

Do they?

是的，实际上它们确实能看见。但在实验过程中我开始不断念叨：我根本不相信这些数据，因为我现在都能看见这些闪光了。

Yeah, they do actually, but then while we were doing the experiment, I was beginning to say a lot, I'm not believing any of this data, because I can see this flashing now.

正如有人向我指出的那样，如果你单纯提高能量，你会看到本不该看到的光波波长。

As was pointed out to me, you will see wavelengths of light that you shouldn't see if you just turn the energy up.

所以如果我让你待在一个充满紫外线的房间里，并往其中注入大量能量，你会看到本不该看到的东西。

So if I put you in a room with UV, and I pump loads of energy into that UV, you'll see things that you shouldn't.

同样地，对于红光，你实际上不应该看到超过700纳米的光。

And likewise, with the reds, you shouldn't really see much above 700.

如果我稍微提高能量，就能让你看到150纳米的光，你会看到这些微小的红色光斑。

I can get you to see a 150 if I just turn turn the energy up a bit, and you see these little red clothes.

是的。

Yeah.

这解释了许多人关于是否见过鬼魂的想法，不过那是另一个话题了——鬼魂与UFO，适合另一期播客。

This explains a lot of people's ideas about whether or not they've seen ghosts, but that's a different that's a different podcast, ghosts and UFOs.

虽然是个有趣的讨论，但留待以后再说吧。

But an interesting discussion, but for another time.

我忍不住要提一下，或许我们稍后再回到这个话题，但格伦和我多年来都研究过多种物种。

But and I can't help but mention that, okay, maybe we'll return to this later, but Glenn has worked on a variety of species as have I over the years.

所以最后我们可能会快速盘点一下这些年研究过的物种。

So maybe at the end, we'll do a quick catalog of the species that we've worked on over the years.

鉴于你研究过的其他物种，得知你研究过驯鹿我并不意外。

So I'm not surprised to learn that you worked on reindeers given the other species you've worked on.

回到人类研究上，你过去五六年发表了一些论文，探讨眼睛暴露于长波光时如何有效保护视力或补偿部分视觉功能损失。

But returning to the human, you published some papers over the last five, six years or so, looking at how when the eyes specifically are exposed to long wavelength light, it can do excellent things for preserving vision or offsetting some loss of visual function.

你能详细讲讲那些实验吗？

Could you detail those experiments

好的，首先让我们来看两条信息。

for Yeah, so let's take two pieces of information first.

衰老的主要理论之一是线粒体衰老理论。

So one of the main theories of aging is the mitochondrial theory of aging.

线粒体调控着衰老的进程。

Mitochondria regulate the pace of aging.

所以如果能调控线粒体的健康状态，就能调控衰老。

So if you can regulate mitochondrial health, you can regulate aging.

这相对容易理解。

That's relatively clear.

这是第一点。

So that's the first thing.

其次要记住的是，视网膜中的线粒体数量比身体其他任何部位都多。

And then the second thing to remember is that there's more mitochondria in your retina than there is in any other part of your body.

视网膜在人体中代谢率最高，老化速度最快，我一直认为它就像跑车。

Your retina has got the highest metabolic rate in the body, ages fast, and my argument always is it's the sports car.

就像跑车冲出车库，但跑了几千英里后就得保养，否则就会散架。

Bangs out of the garage, you know, but after so many thousand miles, you've to service it, otherwise it falls apart.

因此，有充分理由尝试调控视网膜中的线粒体——这对我很有利，因为我专攻视网膜领域，是个视觉研究者。

So, there was a very strong argument for trying to manipulate mitochondria in the retina, which is great for me because I'm a retinal person, I'm a visual person.

所以我具备相关研究工具。

So I had the tools to do it.

我们做的第一个实验是测量人们辨别颜色的能力，结果非常令人振奋。

So the first experiment we did, which was very gratifying, was to actually measure people's ability to see colours.

我们首先采用了相当精密的测试方法。

Now we used a rather sophisticated test first of all.

具体操作是：在高分辨率显示器上显示蓝色字母T，然后在背景中添加大量视觉噪点；或是显示红色字母F并叠加视觉噪点。

And that was, we'd put on a very high resolution monitor, say the letter T in blue, and then we'd add loads and loads of visual noise to it in the background, or we'd have an F in red visual noise.

接着我们测试出他们能清晰辨认并准确识别该字母的视觉阈值。

And then we found the threshold at which they could see that letter and happily identify it.

通过这种方式，我们掌握了受试者对颜色的视觉辨识能力。

So we found out what their visual ability was for colours.

然后我们给他们照射了一束红光，以改善那些高度依赖线粒体的细胞中的线粒体功能。

We then gave them a burst of red light to improve their mitochondria in cells that are very mitochondrial dependent.

之后我们再次测试他们，发现视觉阈值发生了变化。

And we then brought them back, and we found the threshold had changed.

除一人外，所有受试者的视觉阈值都得到了改善。

That threshold had improved in every one of those subjects, bar one.

他们能看到之前看不到的东西了。

They could see something they couldn't see before.

之前看不到的。

See before.

说到这个1，我觉得很难界定，具体是什么量级呢？

By one, I think it's hard, what scale is it on?

其中一些测试，比如这个是Triton色觉测试。

Some of these tests, like this is the Triton test.

我们测试了Tritan和Proton两种色觉类型，所以

Well, we tested Tritan and Proton, so

所以这是针对不同视觉测试的专业术语。

So this is nerd speak for the different visual tests.

大多数人熟悉斯内伦视力表。

Most people are familiar with the Snellen chart.

当你去考驾照时，你必须阅读不同大小的字母。

When you go to get your driver's license, you have to read the letters of different sizes.

非常不同。

Very different.

这是在测量你能看见与看不见之间的阈值差异。

This is measuring the just noticeable difference between you can see something, you can't see something.

当你说只有一个例外时，能否为不熟悉视觉心理物理学的人用现实场景说明？

When you say there was an improvement of but one, could you frame that in real world context for people who are not thinking about visual psychophysics?

好的，这很简单。

Okay, it's very simple.

在我们测试的所有人中，除一名受试者外，其他人都取得了进步。

Of all the people we've tested, we've got an improvement, and there's very large numbers of them, except one subject.

啊，你是说'除了一人'。

Ah, you're saying but one.

我还以为你是指那个数字'不'，表示'不'的数量，不。

I thought you meant that was the numerical No, size of the no, no.

如果你

If you

纵观整个群体，效果规模大约在百分之二十左右。

look over the population, the size of the effect is around twenty percent.

这是非常显著的。

It's very substantial.

我们改善视觉功能的能力在个体间差异巨大。

Our ability to improve visual function varies enormously between individuals.

你刚才说'除了一人'。

You said but one.

这是英美用词差异的时刻。

This is a UK, US moment.

不，但不用道歉，应该是我道歉。

No, but don't apologize, I should apologize.

好的，阈值提高了20%的改善。

Okay, an improvement of 20% improvement in threshold.

所以人们现在的视力比之前更好了。

So people are seeing better than they did prior.

你能解释一下他们采取了什么干预措施吗？

Could you explain what they did for the intervention?

每周几次，每天几次，他们用红光照射眼睛多长时间？

How many times a week, a day, how long are they shining red light in their eyes?

那个，不好意思，长波长光是什么？

What's the, excuse me, long wavelength light?

那种光的性质是什么？

What's the nature of that light?

也许还可以告诉我们距离光源有多远

Maybe even tell us how far away from it

好的，在我们最初的实验中，我们使用的是670纳米的波长，对吧？

they Okay, so in our first experiments, we used six seventy nanometers, right?

这是一种偏深红色的光。

Which is a deepish red light.

我们之所以使用这个波长，是因为之前所有进行不同研究的人都采用了670纳米。

The only reason we use that is because all the studies before us doing different things had used six seventy.

因此，已经存在一个数据库。

Consequently, there was a database.

这就是我们选择它的原因。

So that's why we did it.

而我们确实

And we did

用了一个小手电筒放在人眼前照射——为记录明确，我解释一下，这里的torch指的是手电筒。

it with a little torch that we put in front of someone Flashlight, that's, I'll translate for the record, the flashlight.

不是那种带火焰的、靠近眼睛的火炬。

Not a torch with fire near the eye.

不，绝对不是。

No, definitely not.

我们这样做了三分钟。

And we did that for three minutes.

最初我们每天这样做一小时。

And originally we did that every day for an hour.

我本来不会，不会，

I would have been not, not,

我

I

会让眼睛闭上

would Makes have close

几乎没有差别，因为长波光能穿过眼睑而不受太大影响。

very little difference, because the long wavelength light passes through the lid without it being affected very much.

所以我告诉人们，怎么舒服怎么来。

So I said to people, whatever you're comfortable with.

你这是在帮我一个忙。

You're doing me a favor.

你是我实验中的受试者。

You're being a subject in my experiment.

我不会为此付钱给你。

I'm not paying you for it.

你想一直闭着眼睛吗？

You want to keep your eyes closed?

你就一直闭着眼睛。

You keep your eyes closed.

那些人的色觉都有所改善。

And those people all had an improvement in their color vision.

然后我们逐步减少了剂量。

Now, we then titrated that down.

所以我们没有连续多天进行，只做了一天。

So instead of doing it every day for so many days, we just did it for one day.

只需一天接受三分钟的光照，我们让他们回来，大约一小时后，他们的视力就全部改善了。

And three minutes of that light, one day, and we brought them back, and I think it was an hour later, that it all improved.

这种效果有多稳定？

How stable was the effect?

我是说，他们是否只需要进行一次治疗？

I mean, did they have to only do one treatment ever?

不是。

No.

我希望是这样。

I wish that was the case.

在所有这些人中，我必须说明我们在果蝇、小鼠和人类身上做过类似实验，都需要五天。

In all of those people, and I have to say we've done similar experiments on flies, on mice, on humans, it's five days.

效果能持续五年。

It lasts five years.

五天，这是一个确凿的五天效果。

Five days, it's a solid five day effect.

因此，这里起作用的是一种在进化过程中高度保守的基本机制。

So something very fundamental that is conserved across evolution is playing a role here.

我必须说，粗略来看，我在果蝇中发现的现象，在小鼠中也能发现。

And I have to say that, to a first approximation, anything I find in a fly, I find in a mouse.

我在小鼠中发现的现象，在人类中同样存在。

Anything I find in a mouse, I find in a human.

我找不到这些物种之间存在重大差异的证据。

I can't find a big disjuncture between those things.

所以效果持续了五天。

So it lasted five days.

真正需要理解的关键点是：这是一个开关机制。

And the real big point to take on board is it's a switch.

这里不存在剂量反应曲线。

There's not a dose response curve here.

这就是一个开关。

It is a switch.

当你以特定波长的光输入足够的能量时，它就会发出'砰'和'咔嗒'声。

You put enough energy in at a certain wavelength of light and it goes bang and click.

然后五天后，发出'咔嚓'声并停止。

And then five days later, goes chunk and stops.

我对这些研究有很多疑问。

I have a lot of questions about these studies.

所以我会尽量准确地提出这些问题。

So I'm going to try and be as precise about them.

我知道大家心里在想什么。

I know what's on people's minds.

如果人们要使用长波长发光设备，你认为必须精确到670纳米吗？还是说650到800纳米都可以？

If people are going to get in front of a long wavelength light emitting device, do you think it's critical that it'd be six seventy nanometers or could it be six fifty out to 800?

就波长而言，光实际上需要多窄的波段？

How narrow band does the light actually have to be in terms of wavelength?

基本上在670纳米以上，任何波长的效果都相当类似。

Pretty much anything works to a rather similar extent at six seventy going upwards.

当波长从670纳米降至650纳米时，效果往往会有所减弱。

When you go below six seventy towards six fifty, the effects tend to be somewhat reduced.

如果这种变化发生得非常快，你说一小时后视力就改善了，阈值发生了变化，而且效果持续五天。

If this is happening very quickly, you said an hour late, the vision is better, thresholds have changed, and it lasts five days.

你认为我们能否从阳光中获得同样的效果？

Do you think we can get the same effect from sunlight?

考虑到阳光中含有这些长波长的光，还是说阳光对大多数人来说能量不足？

Given that sunlight contains these long wavelengths of light, or is it that the sunlight isn't of sufficient energy for most people?

我的意思是，用你所说的手电筒（我称之为闪光灯）这种光源，就像你描述并用手势向听众展示的那样，你需要相当靠近眼睛——可能是闭着眼睑，或者如果受试者能忍受的话睁着眼睛——然后将光线照射进他们眼睛几分钟。

I mean, with this, what you call torch, I call flashlight, light source, you know, the way you described it and showed it with your hand for those listening, is you're fairly close to the eye, maybe, you know, eyelids closed or maybe open if people can tolerate that, and you're shining that light in their eyes for a couple of minutes.

这与在非常晴朗的日子走到户外，如果我朝向太阳就闭上眼睛（因为这很舒适），或者仅仅是在阳光下行走获得长波长光照，有什么本质区别？

How different is it than stepping outside on a really bright day, closing my eyes if I look in the direction of the sun, because that's pleasant or just walking in the sunlight and getting long wavelength exposure?

嗯，我是自然阳光的超级拥趸，因为生命在阳光下已经进化了数十亿年。

Well, I'm a big, big fan of natural sunlight because you've evolved, life's evolved for billions of years under sunlight.

这种变化只是最近才发生的。

It's only recently changed.

我不知道那个分界点在哪里，但手电筒发出的光和阳光之间有着巨大差异。

I don't know that cut off point, but there's an enormous difference between the light produced by a flashlight and sunlight.

阳光是极其宽广的光谱，而手电筒只是其中恰好也存在于阳光中的一小段光波。

Sunlight is an enormous broad spectrum, and that flashlight is just a little window of light that happens also to be present in sunlight.

我认为这两种情况可能根本无法相提并论。

Now, I think the two situations are probably incomparable.

对吧？

Right?

我不打算用职业生涯剩余的时间去追查这个问题。

And I'm not going to spend whatever is left of my career hunting that down.

我们知道——这也是我的一个全局性观点——我们可以用单一波长的长波光做很多事情。

We know, and I think this is a global concept I've got, which is that we can do much with single wavelengths of long wavelength light.

比如850或670纳米波长的这种手电筒光。

Like a flashlight, which is eight fifty or six seventy.

我们能做的很多。

We can do a lot.

但我们永远无法达到阳光所能带来的效果。

But we can never do the same as you can get from sunlight.

但你无法用阳光进行那些精确控制的实验，而我用特定波长能更容易做到。

But you can't do those tight controlled experiments with sunlight, that I can do much more easily with specific wavelengths.

是啊，而且你在英国，会有很多天根本做不了实验，我开玩笑的。

Yeah, and you're in The UK, so you'd have a lot of days where can't do experiments at all, I'm just kidding.

必须承认，当我告诉人们早上要让眼睛接触阳光来调节昼夜节律时，我就像个复读机一样反复说这个。

Must say, oftentimes when I tell people to get sunlight in their eyes in the morning to set their circadian rhythm, I'm like repeating record with that.

我会一直说到死的那天。

And I will be till the day I die.

人们会说，我住的地方没有阳光。

People will say, there's no sunlight where I live.

我提醒他们，即使在非常阴沉的天气里，仍然有大量光子能量穿透云层，只是长波光被阻断了。

And I remind them that even on a very overcast day, there's a lot of photon energy coming through, but the long wavelength light is cut off.

所以他们仍然能获得大量光子。

So they're still getting a lot of photons.

我是说，比较一下早上9点和前一天午夜的亮度差异，他们看不到太阳轮廓这个事实才是关键

I mean, compare how bright it is at 9AM versus midnight the night before, their sun is that they can't see the outline of the sun as an object is what

我认为他们想表达的重点是长波长的光会被水散射

I they're referring think the important point there is that long wavelength light gets scattered by water.

它会被水吸收和散射

It gets absorbed and scattered by water.

所以，在冬日里，我们有云层，而云层中含有水分

So, on a winter's day, we've got a cloud, and that cloud contains water.

长波长光线会有一定程度的衰减

There will be an attenuation of the longer wavelength light.

衰减幅度不会很大，但确实存在衰减

It won't be vast, but there will be an attenuation.

更重要的是光线会以不同角度向你射来

But more it will start coming at you in different angles.

所以当你在晴天走路时，沿着街道前行，太阳在你前方，即使穿着衣服也能感到胸前温暖

So when you're walking on a sunny day, and you're walking down the road, sun's in front of you, you feel warm on your chest when you've got clothes on.

而这是长波长光线的作用，因为它相对集中。

And it's longer wavelength light doing it, because it's relatively focused.

在那个冬日里，你仍然会接收到大量长波长光线，但它们以各种不同角度照射而来，并略有衰减。

On that winter's day, you're still getting a lot of long wavelength light, but it's coming at you in a lot of different angles, it's slightly attenuated.

所以我的观点——某种程度上已成为实验室的新信条——就是养条狗。

So my argument, which is the new mantra of the lab to some extent, is get a dog.

对吧？

Right?

养条狗，因为你每天将不得不在白天外出两三次。

Get a dog, because you'll have to go out in daylight two or three times a day.

我完全赞同。

You'll get no argument from me.

你让我很开心，格伦。

You're making me very happy, Glenn.

我爱狗狗。

I love dogs.

本播客的听众都知道我超级爱狗。

Listeners of this podcast will know I absolutely love dogs.

我上一只狗是英国斗牛犬，混了一半獒犬血统。

And my last dog was an English bulldog, half English bulldog, half mastiff.

所以下一只还会是英国斗牛犬。

So the next one will also be an English bulldog.

再问几个问题，因为我知道大家都好奇用于眼睛和其他组织的长波光发射设备。

Couple more questions, because I know people are curious about long wavelength light emitting devices for their eyes and other tissues.

你提到有位受试者没反应，如果我没记错的话——至少对眼睛的效果（不确定对血糖等其他方面的影响）——对视觉功能的效果似乎与年龄有关，对吧？

You mentioned that one subject did not respond, and if I'm not mistaken, these effects, at least on the eyes, I don't know about the other effects on blood sugar, etcetera, but on the eyes, and visual function, seem to be gated by age, right?

我记得40岁以下的人群效果不太明显。

If I recall people younger than 40, you saw less of an effect.

总体而言，从统计学上看效果确实较弱。

Overall, statistically, we saw less of an effect.

你知道的，有些人反应非常强烈，比如我最小的儿子——当时他大概25岁。

You know, some people, my youngest son responded very, very strongly, and at the time, I think he was about 25.