掌握创作过程 | 特怀拉·萨普

你得能告诉大家他们几点来，要带什么鞋子。

You've to be able to tell people what time they're coming and what shoes to bring.

好的，这其实已经帮你做了很多决定。

Okay, that's already actually made a lot of choices for you.

我认为这是件好事。

And that I think is a good thing.

我是说，光说'哦，你什么时候来我们就什么时候开工，随便带什么都行'是没意义的。

I mean, there's no point in just saying, Oh, we'll work whenever you get here and bring whatever.

'随便'可不是我最喜欢的词。

Whatever is not my favorite word.

所以决定要做出，日程要定好。

So choices get made and a schedule gets done.

通常来说，这还是要看具体项目。

And ordinarily, again, it depends on what the project is.

但如果是——我们尽量把范围说广些——如果是我创作新作品，我会制定时间表，舞者们会来，他们自己会上完课。

But if it's let's just give as much range here as possible if it's me making a new piece, I will set a schedule, dancers come in, they will have done class themselves.

他们会带着热身状态来

They will come warm.

那不属于我日程的一部分

That is not a part of my day.

我也有自己的工作要做——既要为排练做准备，也要尽可能保持自己的身体状态。因为我能带进工作室的能量越多，就能给予他们更多，也能期待他们带来更多

I have my own work to do in preparing for that rehearsal, in also maintaining my own physical instrument to the degree that I can, because the more I can bring into the studio, the more I can give them and the more I can expect them to bring in.

所以我与舞者们在这里是并行前进的

So I have a tandem path going on here with the dancers.

我们相遇、合作，通常我会带着预设的方向感来，然后在真实的时空里观察实际效果——这是个既实用又严苛的监工，能迅速粉碎许多幻想

And we meet up, we join, and I usually will come with a certain preset sense of where we're going with this thing and then see how it actually works in real time and real space, which is a very useful and tough mistress and eliminates a lot of fantasy very quickly.

由谁决定谁能与你合作？

Who decides who gets to work with you?

我来决定

I do.

好吧，其实也不完全是这样

Well, that's actually not true.

从某种程度上说，是他们决定的。

In a way, they do.

与我合作的舞者，我显然会进行试镜筛选，但同时也会从'谁愿意与我合作'的角度来考量。

The dancers that I work with, I obviously audition, but I also screen from the perspective of who wants to work with me.

谁会主动表示'我愿意撞穿那堵墙'？

Who's going to come and say, Yeah, I'll go through that wall.

我们是在做这样的事吗？

Is that what we're doing?

我愿意撞穿那堵墙。

I'll go through the wall.

你需要确保排练室里存在这种精神。

And you want to know that you have that in the room.

你不会总是要求他们去撞穿墙壁。

You're not going to ask them to go through the wall all the time.

但如果这种方法确实有效，你必须确保这种承诺是绝对坚定的。

But, you know, if it seemed like it was an approach that was going to be useful, you've got to know that that commitment is really solid.

这最好通过他们的意愿来体现。

That's best indicated by their desire.

不是你发现他们完全合适，而是他们的意愿。

Not you're finding them totally appropriate, but their desire.

大多数舞者是否都明白，工作时间会非常非常长，而且可能很长一段时间内报酬都很少？

Are most dancers living with the understanding that it's going to be very, very long hours and probably very little pay for a while?

报酬肯定很少，而且永远如此。

For sure very little pay and forever.

疯狂的世界。

Wild world.

太疯狂了。

Crazy.

疯狂，而且在我看来是不可接受的，因为你知道，我完全支持那些通过努力和训练取得成就的人，我不会明确区分商界人士和运动员。

Crazy and to my way of thinking, not acceptable because, you know, I'm all in favor of the folks who do the work and the training to accomplish physically, and I don't make a clear distinction between either folks who are in business or athletes.

对我来说，这都是同一回事。

To me, it is all the same enterprise.

但舞者的谋生可能性远不及优秀运动员，甚至不在同一个级别，不在同一个停车场，连通往球赛的高速公路都算不上。

But dancers have nowhere near the possibility of earning a living that a great athlete has not even sort of kind of in the ballpark, not even in the parking lot, not even on the highway to the ballgame.

这种情况是如何发生的？为何持续存在？

How did this happen and why does it continue?

我认为这引发了关于我们如何支持或不支持艺术的耐人寻味的问题。

It raises interesting questions at how we support the arts or don't support the arts, I think.

我们要接管你接下来两年半的节目吗？

Are we taking over your show for the next two and a half years?

如果必须的话，这场对话无疑会为舞蹈吸引更多关注，但更宏观的问题是艺术从业者的生存问题——不仅是作为奢侈品，而是作为文化与生活的核心组成部分。

If we must, you know, this conversation, doubt will draw some additional attention to dance, but the larger issue of, you know, people being able to make it in the arts, not just as a luxury, but as a critical piece of culture and life.

我是说，我热爱美好的事物。

I mean, I love beautiful things.

我喜欢漂亮的狗狗。

I love beautiful dogs.

几乎所有狗狗都很美，连斗牛犬也不例外。

Most all dogs are beautiful, even the bulldogs.

但我热爱美好事物，它们以超越单纯愉悦的方式丰富着生活。

But I love beautiful things and enriches life in more ways than just feeling delighted.

我认为艺术对其他文化领域有着巨大的溢出效应。

I think there's immense carryover from the arts to other areas of culture.

因此我们可以为此提出经济论据，但这也是你在此的部分原因。

And so we could make an economic argument about that, but it's part of the reason you're here.

不过还是让我们回到仪式这个话题上来。

But just sort of return to this business of ritual.

在你继续之前，我能打断一下吗？

Can I interrupt you before you go there?

因为我想探讨两个问题。

Because I'd like to take up two things.

其一是关于现实的认知：当我们完成一场成功的演出时，我的衡量标准是——观众离场时的心态是否比入场时更积极？

One is the notion of the reality being that when we do a successful performance, I measure it by: did that audience leave in a better frame of mind than it came in with?

换句话说，我们提供的是一种服务。

In other words, we provide a service.

我们提供的服务赋予他们一种乐观感，甚至可以说是一种喜悦，让他们相信自己同样拥有能创造非凡成就的身体。

And we provide a service that gives them a sense of optimism yea verily I might even go to joy to the belief that they too occupy this body that does these phenomenal things.

感谢主。

And thank you, Lord.

这就是一种服务。

That's a service.

我认为应该为这种服务支付更多报酬，并且需要得到认可。

I think the answer should be paid more for that service and that it needs to be acknowledged.

我想提出的另一点是，你已经两次提到它了。

The other point that I want to bring up is you've used it twice now.

第一次我没有打断你，那个词。

I didn't stop you, the first word.

美。

Beauty.

这是什么？

What is this?

可能是我所见所闻触动了内心某种情感，这种感受会持续发酵。

It could be something I see or hear that stirs some set of emotions in me that carries forward.

你刚才关于观众会带着不同状态离场的说法。

And what you just said a moment ago about the audience leaves in a different state.

我的意思是，脑海中浮现的词就像是——这堪比顶级心理治疗，但从某种角度说甚至更胜一筹，因为我突然想到，我最珍视的十大回忆中有好几个都是作为观众亲历的现场演出。

I mean, it's the word that came to mind was like, it's like really great therapy, but it's in some sense, it's better than that because I was also thinking that perhaps in the top 10 of all my favorite memories are several live performances that I in which I was the observer.

这些经历确实会在我们心中留下深刻印记。

It's like those things really stick with us.

我认为它们能以深刻的方式改变我们，特别是当我们与其他人共同在场观看，而非仅仅通过屏幕观赏时。

And I think they change us in in in meaningful ways, especially when we're in the audience with other people, not just watching on a on a screen.

这些体验无疑具有变革性的力量。

They can be transformative for sure.

现场观众当然还涉及成本支出的问题，但这印证了表演不仅能让你自我感觉焕然一新，还能让你感知到他人同样如此。

And in a live audience becomes, of course, a whole another thing about costs and expenditures, but that it confirms that not only do you feel a new righteousness for yourself by a performance, but that you sense others do as well.

这种共鸣会缔造出群体联结。

And that creates a community bonding.

你知道的，比如足球比赛，大家都会为之疯狂。

You know, okay, football games, everybody is very rowdy about it.

大多数表演不会这样，但这并不意味着它不能实时地抓住那些共同体验者的心。

Most performances people are not, but that doesn't mean that it still doesn't take that hold of people who are experiencing the same thing in real time.

我们往往会对熟悉的事物视而不见。

We tend to dismiss that which is familiar.

而这种感觉其实并不那么常见，但它让人感到非常亲密，事实也是如此。

And that sense is actually not all that familiar, but it feels very intimate and it is.

但实际上这是相当罕见的。

But it actually is quite rare.

一件艺术品越稀有——我把表演也视为一种艺术品——它的价值就越高，在文化和经济上获得的回报也越多。

And the rarer a piece of art and I will call a performance a piece of art is, the more value it has and the more that is compensated for culturally and economically.

美应该有其对应的价格。

There should be a price point on beauty.

就这么说吧。

Let's put it that way.

嗯，其他事物也是如此。

Well, is for everything else.

嗯，我知道。

Well, I know.

是啊。

Yeah.

要知道，美是有价码的——人们可以说日出是免费的，日出很美，但在某些地点观赏日出比其他地点要昂贵得多。

You know, there is a price point for beauty in terms of people could say, well, the sunrise is free and the sunrise is beautiful, but seeing it in certain locations costs a lot more money than seeing it in other locations.

这是肯定的。

That's for sure.

没错。

Right.

这引出了另一个问题，因为某种程度上这种想法挺可怕的——是的，这是一种特权。

And that brings up another thing, because in a way it's a kind of horrible thinking to go, Yeah, it's a privilege.

你知道吗？

You know what?

你无法收买我。

You can't pay me.

你买不到我。

You can't buy me.

我是无价的。

I don't have a price.

我确信这正是伟大舞者的特质之一——他们显然没有得到与伟大运动员相称的报酬，正如我之前说过，我还要再说至少三十万次那样。而我从未真正与一位杰出舞者探讨过这个问题。

And that I'm sure is one of the things in great dancers who are certainly not paid, as I've said before and I'll say at least 300,000 times more commensurate with a great athlete that is probably one and I've never actually brought it up with a great dancer.

你自身的独立与自由意识，在多大程度上塑造了你作为艺术家的特质？

How much is it your own sense of independence and liberty that makes you the artist that you are?

我想大多数人提到舞蹈时，首先联想到的名字大概是巴瑞辛尼科夫。

I think the name that most people probably associate with dance is probably Baryshnikov.

即便对舞蹈了解不多的人，也知晓或熟悉这个名字。

If they don't know much about dance, they know that name, or it's familiar to them.

米哈伊尔·巴瑞辛尼科夫究竟有何特质，能让他如此突破大众认知的界限？

What was it about Mikhail Baryshnikov that sort of had him break through the common consciousness that way?

首先，如今的米沙·摩尔（Misha Moore）实际上是被年轻一代通过他后期的文化输入——我

First of all, Misha Moore these days actually is remembered by younger generations from his later cultural input, I.

指的是

E.

《欲望都市》——而非作为古典芭蕾艺术家被记住的。

Sex and the City, than he is as a classical ballet artist.

好吧，我们就从这里开始。

All right, let's just start there.

因为他在《欲望都市》中以角色身份出现。

Because he showed up in SEX AND THE CITY as a character.

而这正是他经常被年轻观众、年轻人所认知的方式。

And that's how he is often recognized by younger audiences, younger folk.

他最初是什么身份？

What was he in the beginning?

实际上，最初是大提琴手，然后是努里耶夫（Nureyev），接着才是米沙。

Actually, was a cellist, then there was Nureyev, then Misha.

从政治角度来说，他跨越了界限。

Politically, he came across the line.

当时是俄罗斯与美国之间的选择。

It was Russia, America.

他选择了美国。

He chose America.

他是我们的英雄。

He is our hero.

更何况他英俊非凡。

Plus which he was gorgeous.

在我看来毫无疑问，他是那个时代集二十世纪芭蕾技术之大成者，其技艺将永远无人能及。

He's unquestionably, in my opinion, that era, the possessor of a technique that was a culmination of the twentieth century and that will never be matched.

能亲眼目睹他在把杆旁训练，或是完全沉浸在古典芭蕾的内在境界中，是一种难以置信的殊荣。

And to see him work at the bar or to see him in the absolute interior realm of what the classical ballet was, was an unbelievable privilege.

但亲眼见证的人并不多。

But not many people saw that.

没多少人见过他在把杆旁练习基本功的样子。

Not many people saw him at the barre, which is where you build your chops.

他还能够将这些基本功加以拓展，突破其边界，尝试不同的方式，但始终运用他从古典芭蕾基础中获得的能量向外延伸。

He also was capable of taking those chops and expanding on them, breaking through their boundaries, trying it this way, do it that way, but utilizing the power that he had from that simple classical bass to take it outward.

在这方面他极具创造力。

Lots of inventiveness in that regard.

而且这家伙帅极了。

And the guy was gorgeous.

我还能说什么呢？

What can I tell you?

那又

And what does

意味着什么？

that mean?

但这究竟意味着什么？

But what does that mean?

这意味着一种广泛的兴趣，让你作为观众也感到被包含其中。

It means a wide ranging interest that you feel includes you as you the spectator.

你能感觉到他将你纳入他广阔的视野之中。

You feel he's including you in his wideness of vision.

这种特质从何而来？

Where does that come from?

源于他的智慧、音乐天赋、训练经历、人格魅力，以及他拉脱维亚的文化熏陶——这是一种独特的商品化（我最爱用的词之一，每当我把这个词用在表演艺术上时总会让人抓狂）。

From the intellect, from his musicality, from his training, from his personality, from his cultural breeding Latvian and it is a singular commodification one of my favorite words that drives people up the walls when I use that word in relation to the arts of performing.

但他在许多领域都非常、非常、非常敏锐，从运动能力到诗性感悟力都如此。

But he was very, very, very astute in many different areas, starting from an athletic ability through to a poetic sensibility.

你说这个很有趣，正因为他的魅力，人们以非典型的方式感觉自己参与其中。

It's interesting you said that because he was attractive that people felt that they were a part of it in a way that was not typical.

我们都想成为神圣的一部分。

We want to be godly.

我们都渴望触及崇高之境。

We all want to be a part of the sublime.

能给予我们这种感觉的人寥寥无几。

Few can give us that.

所以当人们说，艺术家——我泛指包括舞者在内的艺术家——就像是传送门。

So when they say, you know, artists or I include dancers, just broadly speaking artists are like portals.

你是这个意思吗？

Is that what you mean?

我认同这个说法。

I would accept that.

多年前，我去加州大学伯克利分校听了一场菲利普·格拉斯的音乐会。

Years ago, I went to a Philip Glass concert at UC Berkeley.

说实话，

I'll be honest.

我当时没听懂。

I didn't understand it.

离开时我处于一种困惑的状态，主要是困惑人们竟然愿意为那种演出买单。

I left there in a different state, mostly of confusion that people were willing to pay for that.

如果冒犯了菲利普·格拉斯的乐迷，我表示歉意，但这是我的播客。

I'm sorry if I'm insulting any Philip Glass fans, but this is my podcast.

我要直截了当地说。

I'm gonna be very direct.

好的。

Okay.

有人告诉我可能是我没看对菲利普·格拉斯的音乐会。

I was told I maybe hadn't seen the right Philip Glass concert.

我当时非常困惑。

I was very confused.

为什么？

Why?

要知道，我不是音乐人。

You know, I'm not a musician.

虽然我不是音乐人，但当我喜欢什么时，我知道我喜欢，而且往往会非常喜欢。

I'm not but when I like something, I know I like it and I tend to really like it.

但对我来说，很少遇到这样的作品，其中某些部分感觉极具实验性。

But it's rare for me to encounter something that's like, it just felt like it felt extremely experimental at part of it.

我无法分辨人们是否因为这是他的作品就自我暗示喜欢它，还是真的发自内心喜欢。

And I couldn't tell whether or not people were telling themselves that they liked it because it was him or whether they really liked it.

你去看的那场演出是哪一年的？

What year is this that you went to

天哪，这应该是2008年吧？

this Gosh, this must have been 2008?

2007年或2008年。

2007, 2008.

那已经是很晚的时期了。

That's very late.

好的，菲尔显然从1960年代就开始创作了，我曾与他有过一次重要合作和一次近期合作。

Okay, so Phil obviously has been working since the 1960s and I've done one major collaboration with Phil and one recent collaboration.

最初，极简主义（如Reich、Reilly、Glass）的观众是逐渐积累的，所以当早期作品《In the Upper Room》问世时，它带着一种力量和冲击力，同时也包含着探索的意味。

And in the beginning, the audience for Minimalism Reich, Reilly, Glass came gradually, and so when the initial piece called In the Upper Room was done, it had a power and a force that involved also discovery.

现在这首名为《slacktide》的轻快作品，填补了一个已知的空白，其处理方式略有不同，而非强调打击乐。

Now the lighter piece, which is called slacktide, fills a known commodity and was addressed slightly differently rather than It's percussive.

抒情元素被简化了，而你是个敏感的灵魂。

The lyric element has been reduced, and you're a sensitive soul.

当你想到'美'这个词时，它并不意味着完全剔除。

You think of the word 'beauty' and that does not mean total elimination.

它意味着包容。

It means inclusion.

因此后期的格拉斯作品是与芝加哥打击乐团'第三海岸'合作完成的，菲尔与他们合作频繁，并信任他们能在作品上进行迭代演绎。

And so the later glass work was done in conjunction with a Chicago percussion group called Third Coast, who Phil's worked with a lot and who he trusts to do iterations, if you will, on the work.

我们尝试用长笛进行了迭代。

And we iterated with a flute.

长笛不这样演奏。

Flutes don't do this.

长笛是这样演奏的。

Flutes do this.

于是我们在其上叠加了一段旋律。

So we put a stream on top of that.

那已融入音乐之中。

That's in the music.

我是说，迭代本身就是一门学问，对吧？

I mean, iterations are a study in and of themselves, right?

是什么让事物既有所不同却又保持本质相同？

What makes something different from and yet still the same as?

这个问题祝你好运。

Good luck with that one.

但那就是不同的音域范围。

But that was the different range.

我敢说，如果你去听听——因为第三海岸乐团录制了这部作品——先听《Slacktide》，然后告诉我你对格拉斯作品的感受。

I daresay if you go and look at because Third Coast produced a recording of this work you listen to Slacktide and then tell me your response to Glass.

但本质上，极简主义将抒情元素精简为纯粹的时间流逝。

But basically, minimalism took the lyric element and reduced it to just the temporal passage in time.

有趣的是，在所有我看过的音乐会中，这场音乐会仍像一种激励，促使我去了解更多。

What's interesting, because of all the concerts I've seen, this one still sticks with me as like a stimulus to learn more.

因为有一件事让我既着迷又困惑：除了喜剧之外，对某件事物了解得越多——无论是艺术家、艺术创作的过程、舞蹈的构成——通常人们就会越喜欢那件作品或那个流派。

Because one thing that I'm totally fascinated by and perplexed by is that with the exception of comedy, the more one learns about something, the artists, what went into the art, the dance, what went into it, typically, the more one likes that piece or that genre.

就像，我对某件事了解得越多，就越能以一种不同的耳朵去聆听它。

Like, the more I I learn about something, then the then I can listen to it with a different ear.

我能以不同的眼光去观看它。

I can watch it with it with a different eye.

喜剧是个例外。

Comedy is the exception.

如果不好笑，了解笑话的起源也不会让它变得更有趣。

If it's not funny, learning about the origins of the joke don't make it any funnier.

了解喜剧演员的幕后故事并不会让笑话更好笑。

Learning about the comedian doesn't make it funnier.

它只是，怎么说呢，变得越来越无趣。

It just it sort of just like falls further and further.

我觉得这对其他艺术形式也同样适用。

See, I think that's true of your other art forms too.

我想你可能把知识本能混淆了，请原谅我这么说。

I think you're confusing forgive me knowledge with instinct.

我是说，你本能地对幽默作出反应，但一件艺术品也能本能地打动你，让你感到困惑。

I mean, instinctively, you're responding to the humor, but instinctively a piece of art can reach you, you can be baffled by it.

但我们不喜欢困惑，所以可能会说需要先了解才能承认喜欢它。

But we don't like confusion, so we might call that something we should learn about before we can acknowledge liking it.

这是我认为非常困难的事情之一，也是我经常思考的问题——不仅要保护本能，还要精炼本能。

That's one of the things that is I think really difficult and something I think a lot about, which is not only protecting but refining instinct.

详细说说这个。

Tell me more about that.

这很有趣不是吗？

I know it's fascinating, isn't it?

我没法细说，因为这足够写本书了。

I can't tell you about it because I could be writing a book.

哦，里克·鲁宾虽然你们还没见过，但我感觉你们有种特殊的共鸣，他总在谈论品味这个话题，你知道的，无论是作为消费者还是创作者，培养并信任自己的品味感至关重要。

Oh, well, Rick Rubin, who I feel, even though you haven't met yet, you share a certain kinship with talks about taste all the time about this, you know, a sense of taste and trusting your own sense of taste as a consumer and as a creator is so key.

这就是我提到菲利普·格拉斯的原因，我不会因为一场音乐会就否定他。

That's why I brought up the Philip Glass thing, because I'm not writing off glass on the basis of one concert.

但我离开时并没有觉得自己像个白痴。

But I didn't walk out of there thinking like, maybe I'm an idiot.

我只是想可能我没理解到位。

Maybe I didn't get it.

我也没觉得观众都是傻子。

I thought, and I didn't think they're all idiots.

我只是觉得大概是我与众不同，因为现场其他人似乎都很享受。

I just thought, I guess I'm just different because everyone else here seems to really love this.

就像...我就是无法产生共鸣。

And this is like, I just, it doesn't hit me right.

就像我不喜欢沙丁鱼一样。

It's like, I don't like sardines.

从来就不喜欢沙丁鱼。

Never like sardines.

你给我100条沙丁鱼，我会比讨厌第一条更讨厌它们100倍。

You give me a 100 sardines, I'm going to hate them a 100 times more than the first sardine.

我保证。

I promise.

因为我吃过100条沙丁鱼。

Because I've eaten a 100 sardines.

只是我不在乎自己不喜欢沙丁鱼。

It's just but I don't care that I don't like sardines.

我已经释怀了。

I just I'm over it.

从第一条沙丁鱼开始我就释怀了。

I was over it from the first sardine.

没错。

Right.

菲尔正处于前卫艺术的边缘。

Phil's on the cusp of the avant garde.

前卫艺术是个自鸣得意的领域，可能非常恼人，有时也不那么明智且极度放纵。

The avant garde is a smug place to be and can be very aggravating and can also be not that bright and very indulgent.

这其中或许有某种道理存在。

There might have been some sense of that to it.

前卫艺术容易将自身与原创性混为一谈，反之亦然。

The avant garde can confuse itself with originality and vice versa.

你认为舞者在涉足其他舞蹈形式前接受古典训练重要吗？

Do you think it's important for dancers to be classically trained before they get into other forms?

接受古典训练？

To be classically trained?

当然重要。

Absolutely.

你难道想成为音乐家却不理解五度圈和声结构，不了解所有音乐的构造和声吗？

You want to be a musician and not understand the circle of fifths, the harmonies of construction of all music?

不。

No.

芭蕾是一种人体在空间中移动的形式，经过多个世纪的演变，它已经领先于我们。

Ballet is a format for the human body moving in space that has evolved over many centuries and has got a head start on us.

如果你想学习如何移动身体，不妨通过学习芭蕾来尝试向前跃进。

And if you want to learn about how you move, you might as well try and jump a little further forward by studying ballet.

我其实不在乎你是否能做阿拉贝斯克（即一腿在后，一腿在下的动作），对吧？

I don't care ultimately if you're arabesque, which is one leg behind, one leg under, right?

除非是纯粹的古典芭蕾，否则我不在乎你的阿拉贝斯克是否完全符合古典标准。

If your arabesque is aligned in a perfectly classical manner, unless it's a perfectly classical ballet.

但我确实在乎你是否具备这种能力，并能以此为参照来判断腿部该如何移动以及能否到达目标位置。

But I do care you have that gear and you can reference it in terms of where's the leg going to move from and does it get to that point?

它能否精准停在中心点上？

Can it stop right on its center or not?

这就是芭蕾能带来的。

That's what ballet can do.

如果一个动作有标准执行方式，肢体及其每个组成部分都必须沿特定轨迹从A点移动到B点，而人们体型各异，舞台上又有众多舞者，你如何协调这种差异？

If there's a proper way for a movement to be done, the limb, every element within the limb has to move from point A to point B in a certain trajectory, and people come in different sizes and shapes, and you've got multiple dancers on stage, how do you reconcile that?

你无法协调。

You don't.

关键词是'恰当'。

And the word is properly.

恰当。

Properly.

什么是恰当？

What is proper?

我曾有幸与圣彼得堡基洛夫芭蕾舞团合作，并参观过他们的学校。

I had the experience of working with the Kiraph in St.

孩子们列队站立时如同精确复刻的复制品，他们通过全国范围的严格选拔机制，最终选出那10到12名适龄孩子。

Petersburg, and I went to their school.

（注：此处与前文语义连贯，建议保留原文结构）

And the children are lined up and they are exact replicas, and they have a huge selection mechanism throughout the country for picking those 10 or 12 kids that are going to be in there of whatever age.

我看到一组小男孩，都不到八岁。

And I saw one group of little boys, less than eight years old.

大概有八九个孩子，穿着黑色小短裤和白色小衬衫。

There were probably eight or nine of them in their little black shorts and little white shirts.

我只是短暂地进去了一下，他们正像传统中那样——这很美妙——表现得非常恭敬。

I just came in briefly and they were being you know, as they do, it's a part of the tradition and it's wonderful, being very respectful.

当时的情况像是，哦，进来后你坐在这里，他们会继续，然后我们就被带去了下一个班级。

And it was like, oh, come in and you will sit here and they will continue and then we're getting moved to the next class.

一个小男孩站出来说，不，不，不，我们还想做更多！

And one little boy came out and said, No, no, no, we want to do more!

于是我们回去后，他们开始不按顺序跳跃，因为芭蕾课程是精心设计来热身身体并培养训练的。

So we went back and they started jumping out of sequence because the ballet class is very carefully constructed to warm up the body and also to develop the training.

所以每节技巧课上，你都在横向和纵深两个维度进行训练。

So you're working both laterally and in-depth in every technique class.

他们打乱了顺序，就为了让男孩们能跳跃，这通常要到课程快结束时才会进行。

They went out of sequence so the boys could jump, which is usually not done until the very end of class.

这个小家伙拥有我们所说的真正弹跳力。

And this little guy had real what we call ballon.

他能跳起来，有那么一瞬间仿佛能在空中停留。

He could go up and he could for a moment it seems like he's able to suspend.

他知道自己有这个天赋，也知道我在把杆练习时看不到，所以他很想展示——但他的脚存在我们所说的外翻问题。

He knew he had that and he knew I wouldn't see that at the bar, so he wanted to but he was what we call pronated.

他的脚部过度外展，不是通过跖骨垂直起跳，而是通过腿外侧发力。

His feet were hyperextended to the outside, so he's not going straight up through the metatarsal he's going up through the outside of the leg.

我把老师叫出来说：'你知道这孩子天赋异禀吧'。

I pulled the teacher out and I said, You know, that kid's phenomenally talented.

老师说：'是的，我们知道'。

He said, Yeah, we know.

我又说：'但他的脚外翻了'。

And I said, But he's pronating.

老师说：'这个我们也知道，但我们还有另外八个孩子要教'。

He said, We know that too, but we have eight other ones.

如果他不解决这个问题，就会被淘汰，我们会换其他人上。

If he doesn't figure that out, he's out and we'll bring in another one.

这可能决定一个孩子长大后是拥有事业人生，还是迷失方向。

And this can be the difference between a child who grows into an adult with a career in a life and one who's lost.

所以父母们拼命想为孩子争取这样的机会。

So parents are very protective of trying to get this opportunity for their kids.

这令人心碎。

It's heartbreaking.

他们的训练方式是被强行摆成这些姿势。

And the way they are trained is they are wrenched into these positions.

我在一个高年级女生班看到阿拉贝斯克动作时，有条腿没有稍微后摆。

And I saw in an older class of young girls an arabesque, and one leg was not slightly behind.

老师走过来，用一只手臂硬把那条腿扳到后面，同时把肩膀往这边拉，推了她一下才松手。

The teacher came and literally pinned the leg behind with one arm and drew the shoulder out this way, pushed her and then released her.

他们就是这样教学的。

And that's how they teach.

你觉得这种事会在美国发生吗？

You think that's going to happen in America?

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

而这正是培养出一排能在把杆前做出完全相同的阿拉贝斯克动作的舞者所需要的。

And that's what it takes to create a line of people who at the bar hit exactly the same arabesque.

这既是极致之美，也是令人难以置信的缺乏选择——因为那个阿拉贝斯克动作将以那个特定角度定格一生。

It's both a thing of extraordinary beauty and a thing of incredible lack of choice, because that arabesque is going to be set for life in that one angular demarcation.

要知道，在西方我们总鼓励各种自由探索，这种观念很难被以这种方式训练的孩子理解，他们只会固守那些既定参数。

You know, heaven knows here in the West, we like to encourage all kinds of wanderings around, which is hard to get through the head of a child who's been trained in this way, to stay within those parameters.

这显然也反映了某种政治现状。

And it says something also obviously about the political situation.

对吧？

Right?

那些孩子并没有太多选择。

Those kids don't have a lot of choice.

他们循规蹈矩。

They toe the line.

所以目标是达到那种统一性吗？

So is the goal to get that uniformity?

完全正确。

Absolutely.

对于一个有时从事所谓'齐奏'工作的人来说，有些时候我并不常那么做。

For a person who works sometimes to what's called unison, there are times when you want I don't do it that often.

这需要大量工作，而且我不认同它对民主的隐喻。

It's a lot of work and I don't like what it says about democracy.

但如果你需要齐奏效果，你就会追求齐奏。

But if you need to have unison, you want unison.

这意味着对时间和空间的精确协调。

And that means an exact agreement on time and space.

你之前关于不同体型等问题的疑问——我可以协调这点，因为我能通过核心动作来实现齐奏效果。

Now your other question about what about different body types and so forth I can accommodate that because I can gain my unison from the center.

我们这里讨论的芭蕾舞，其魅力来源于外围，从外部视角，从广泛的延伸中获取。

What we're talking about the ballet here it gains it from the periphery, from the exterior point, from the broad reach.

我会接受我的广泛延伸实际上不会完全一致，但我的中心会保持一致，我会把这视为某种程度的妥协。

I'll accept my broad reach is not going to be actually in uniform, but my center is gonna be, and I'll make that it's a compromise of sorts.

这其实算不上妥协。

It's not really a compromise.

这是一种共识。

It's an agreement.

我要这样定义，因为我希望他们从内在目标出发工作，而视觉效果则是你们需要考虑的问题。

I'll make that definition because I want them to work from an interior purpose and the visuals of it are your problem.

现在，我相信你们很多人都听我说过，我服用AG1已经超过十年了。

By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade.

确实如此。

And indeed that's true.

我早在2012年就开始服用AG1，至今仍坚持每天服用，是因为据我所知，AG1是市场上最高质量、最全面的基础营养补充剂。

The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day is because AG1 is to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还包含益生菌、益生元和适应原，能弥补您饮食中可能存在的营养缺口，同时为高强度生活提供支持。

What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet while also providing support for a demanding life.

鉴于AG1所含的益生菌和益生元，它还有助于维持健康的肠道微生物群。

Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.

肠道微生物群由数以万亿计的微生物组成，它们分布在消化道内，影响着您的免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康等诸多方面。

The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.

持续服用AG1有助于我的消化功能，保持免疫系统强健，并确保我的情绪和精神专注力始终处于最佳状态。

Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.

AG1现已推出三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带风味。

AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical.

虽然我一直很喜欢AG1的原味，特别是加一点柠檬汁后，但我现在尤其钟爱新出的浆果口味，味道棒极了。

And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular, it tastes great.

不过话说回来，其实所有口味我都喜欢。

But then again, I do love all the flavors.

如果您想尝试AG1或这些新口味，可以访问drinkag1.com/huberman领取专属优惠。

If you'd like to try AG one and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

只需访问drinkag1.com/huberman即可开始。

Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.

我要从生物学角度提几个问题。

I'm going to ask a couple of questions in the frame of biology.

好的。

Okay.

我觉得这些问题可能会让你感兴趣，但你肯定掌握着我所寻求的信息。

That I think I'm hoping you might find interesting, but you certainly have the information that I'm seeking here.

首先，你可能知道这个，但如果你不知道的话，有位伟大的诺贝尔生理学奖得主。

First off, you may know this, but if you don't, there's a great Nobel prize winning physiologist.

他叫谢灵顿。

His name was Sherrington.

他曾说过："最终共同通路是运动"。

And he said, The final common path is movement.

基本上，生物体（尤其是哺乳动物）的运动，正是神经系统构建的目的所在。

That basically the movement of an organism, especially mammals, is really what the nervous system is constructed for.

而且，你知道，更现代的理论认为，运动先出现，然后是舞蹈，接着是歌唱，最后才是语言。

And, you know, more modern theories are that, you know, movement came and dance came, then song, then language.

但运动是一切的基础，它关系到物种的进化、寻找配偶和觅食。

But that movement is the foundation of everything as it relates to evolution of a species, finding mates, finding food.

我能打断一下吗？

Can I interrupt you?

请讲。

Please.

它甚至更基础，因为运动是我们首先要做的事。

It is even more basic, because movement is the first thing we're going to do.

在你能够移动身体部位之前，你发不出任何声音。

And you don't make any sound until you can move parts of you.

在你能够移动那只手之前，你无法自己进食。

You don't feed yourself until you can move that hand.

没有运动，你写不出任何语言、音乐或任何东西。

You don't write anything language, music or nada without movement.

那我们为何要把运动贬低到文化堆的最底层，视其为某种可耻之物？

Why do we therefore stick movement way down here under the bottom of our cultural heap as somehow shameful or what?

舞蹈的哪方面特质让它不如雕塑、绘画或音乐那样受推崇？

What is it with the aspect of dance that makes it a less kind of revered format than sculpture or painting or music?

艺术中的二等侍女吗？

A secondary handmaiden to the arts?

真的吗？

Really?

嗯，我当然很欣赏运动。

Well, I certainly appreciate movement.

而且我知道，某种程度上人们对于竞技运动的痴迷也反映了这一点。

And I know that and I like to think that people's obsession with athleticism in some sense reflects that too.

完全同意。

Totally.

自从听了你的书，尽管它不涉及创作过程，但我一直很想问你这个问题。

I've been wanting to ask you this question for a very long time since I heard your book, even though it's not about the creative process.

那么我就开始了，我会尽量简短地提供这些原始材料供你回应。

And here goes, I'm going to keep this as brief as possible just to give the raw materials for your response.

运动神经元，即控制运动的神经元，它们控制着躯干的运动。

So the motor neurons, the neurons that control movement, They control movement of the trunk.

它们控制着手指精细动作的运动——就是我们科学上所称的'指骨'，对吧？

They control movement of the fine digits of the fingers that are the fingers, the digits as we call them in science, right?

用专业术语说，包括手腕等所有部位。

Nerd speak, the wrists, everything.

所以我们说从近端到远端，就像从中心向外延伸。

So we say from proximal to distal, like from center out.

过去二十年左右有个惊人发现：控制人类躯干前后左右运动的神经元分子特征，与鱼类控制波动游动的神经元完全一致。

There's this incredible thing that's been discovered over the last twenty years or so, which is that the molecular identities of the neurons that control the movement of my trunk and your trunk forward and back and side to side are exactly the same as the neurons that control undulation in a fish.

控制近端肢体（如上臂和大腿）运动的神经元，在分子层面上与鱼类控制鳍运动的神经元完全相同。

The neurons that control the movement of the proximal limbs, like the upper arms and the thighs, are molecularly identical to the neurons that exist to control fin movement in fish.

而进化产生的是越来越多的运动神经元，使我们这些旧大陆灵长类能够像这样灵活操控精细指骨。

And that what evolved was progressively more and more motor neurons so that we as old world primates can manipulate the fine digits in like so.

好的，这没问题。

Okay, so that's fine.

这仅仅说明存在一种从原始到更进化的神经元结构，控制着从中心向外发展的运动。

That just tells you that there's this kind of primitive to more evolved structure of neurons that control movement from center up.

让我着迷的是，虽然肯定有人能以极高频率活动躯干——你知道，像高频波动那样——但这很难做到。

What's fascinating to me is that while I'm sure there are people who can move their trunk at very high frequency, you know, undulate very high frequency, that's a hard thing to do.

这通常需要后天学习。

That generally has to be learned.

比如我可以缓慢地左右摆动躯干，但很难快速摆动，而我的手指却能快速活动。

Like I can move my trunk slowly from side to side, but it's hard to move it very fast from side to side, but I can move my fingers very fast.

因此身体上基本存在一个从中心向外延伸的频率分布图。

And so there's basically a frequency map from the center out on the body.

现在当我观察人们的动作时，由于我是神经科学家且脑中存有这些知识，我认为他们其实是在传递频率——而光子空间的视觉频率会产生非常有趣的...你知道，我们有波长概念。

So now when I look at the way people move, I think because I'm a neuroscientist and I have this knowledge in my head, like they're communicating frequency and frequency in the visual in photon space gives you very interesting, you know, we have wavelength.

我们也有频率概念，就像声音里有高低音调，从低到高的音阶。

We have also frequency like we, in sound you have high, low and high pitches, low to high pitch.

在其他领域，你也同样能看到这种现象。

And in other domains, you also have this.

所以对我来说，首先我很想听听你的想法。

And so to me, first of all, I'd love your thoughts on this.

我不是在寻求理论验证。

I'm not asking for validation of a theory.

事实就是如此。

This is just is what it is.

这不是我提出的理论。

I didn't come up with this.

但我在想，当你在编排舞蹈时，无论是有意识还是无意识，是否在用动作创造音乐，而这种创作方式恰好映射了这种从中心向外延伸的频率分布概念？

But I wonder whether or not consciously or unconsciously when you've choreographed dance, whether or not you're making music with movement in a way that maps on to this idea of a frequency map from center out?

也许某种程度上并非如此。

Maybe, in part, no.

亲爱的，我的爱人。

Sweetness, my love.

我们不是早就讨论过中心的重要性和独特性了吗？

Did we not discuss already much earlier the importance and specificity of center?

现在，你所说的关于触须、神经元、细胞的不同速率

Now, what you're saying about the different rates of the tendrils, the neurons, the cellular

是的，控制躯干与上臂的神经元

Yeah, neurons that control the trunk versus the upper arms versus

是的，这个比那个能做出更多选择

Yeah, that this has got more choice can make more choice than this can make.

我是否考虑过身体各部位的关系，比如有时腿部以一种速度运动，比如手臂速度的一半，它们基于相同的节拍基准，但以不同速度运作。

Do I think about the parts of the body as sometimes in other words, the legs can be working at one rate of speed, say half time of what the arm is doing, and they'll be on the same metronomic base, but they'll be operating at a different speed.

我当然会考虑这种情况。

Certainly I would think of that.

当我思考力量时，有时你可以通过核心来隔离动作，上半身会有巨大冲击力，而下半身则保持流畅。

When I think about power, that sometimes you can isolate through the center and there'll be like a huge impact from the top, but that the body, the lower body, will be fluid.

有时候会这样。

Sometimes.

我是说，我借鉴太极拳已经很久了。

I mean, I've ripped off tai chi forever.

这没关系。

It's okay.

所以我们练着太极，突然又回到原来的状态，对吧？

So we're doing tai chi and suddenly we're and then we're back into it, right?

就像有一股电流穿过，我想这可能是你神经结构的一种变化。

So it's just like a jolt goes through it, and I suppose that's a change in your neurological construct.

我的意思是，你所说的让我感兴趣的部分，正是我生活中的一个噩梦——舞蹈本身就很难，而在我们的文化中，它难以被许多人认可的原因之一，就是它不像音乐或语言那样容易被记录和保存。

I mean, what interests me in what you're saying is a part of the nightmare of my life, which is dance has difficulty and one of the reasons it has difficulty in being registered by many people in our culture is that it doesn't have easy access to being documented and recorded in the way that music does or language does.

我多年来一直主张，你所说的应该是一种记录动作的方式，让人们能够阅读舞蹈，从而扎根于那种传统并理解它。

What you're saying, I've argued for many years, should be a way of documenting movement that people could read and then they could read the dance and then they would feel grounded in that tradition and understanding of that tradition.

他们研究那种传统。

They study that tradition.

但目前还做不到这一点。

That's not now possible.

我想谈谈创作过程，或许能帮助人们构建自己的创作追求。

I'd like to talk about the creative process a bit in a way that perhaps people can structure some of their own creative pursuits.

你什么时候能把握住核心脉络？

At what point do you know the spine?

开头和结尾。

The beginning and the end.

好的。

Okay.

我指的是什么？

What do I mean?

最初你只是期待它，稍微尝到一点甜头，否则根本无法开始——没有最微小的迹象表明存在某种能吸引我的东西，让我能够开始构建，这时过程就变得非常令人安心。

In the beginning you hope for it and you have a little taste of it or you wouldn't be able to I wouldn't be able to start without the tiniest little indication there's something there that's actually going to hook it and it's going to allow me to start building, and this is where process becomes very reassuring.

开始砌墙时，你只是搅拌砂浆、砌砖块，重复这个过程，墙就逐渐长高，发展出各种变化，而你始终只是在处理砂浆和砖块。

Start building the wall, you're just mixing the mortar and putting the brick in, mixing the mortar and putting the bits on, and the wall grows and it develops all of this stuff happening, and you're just doing the mortar and the brick.

这既不令人生畏，又能在你渴望的领域带来非凡的回报。

And it's very not menacing and extraordinarily rewarding in the place you want to live.

但你不能这样，因为你必须完成作品并放手。

But you can't because you've got to finish the work and let it go.

一个沮丧的时刻。

A dismal moment.

或许我们可以举个例子来说明。

Maybe we put this into example.

假设我想写一个短篇故事。

Let's say I want to write a short story.

我意识到你是编舞家，不是写作导师。

I realize you're a choreographer, not a writing instructor.

但我们说，什么是...然后你会说，嗯，有人说他们想写故事或书。

But we say, what's the And then you say, well, someone says that they want to write stories or books.

那么核心是什么？

So what's the spine?

第一件事是：核心创意是什么？

The first thing is what's the idea?

首要问题是故事在哪里？

The first thing is where's the story?

我是说，有些作家必须先知道结局，才能从开头写起。

I mean, some writers have to know the end before they can start at the beginning.

另一些则至少在写到中间之前完全不想考虑结局，因为他们希望作品能自然呈现。

Others want nothing to do with the end until they've at least reached the middle, because they want the work to find itself.

这既是作为作家的特权，也是作为作家的痛苦。

That's a part of the privilege of being a writer and the pain of being a writer.

开始创作的框架有时仅仅是习惯和纪律。

The construct of starting sometimes it's simply habit and discipline.

你每天早晨6:45准时开始，只给自己一个半小时的时间。

And you are going to go in and you are going to start at, let's say, 06:45 every morning and you're going to give yourself you've only got an hour and a half.

我不是在说专业作家的情况。

I'm not talking about you're a professional writer.

我指的是那些可能想成为专业作家，但至少还有一份甚至两份工作，很可能还要照顾孩子的人。

I'm talking about you're a person who maybe wants to become a professional writer, but who's got at least one other job and maybe two and probably a kid to deal with.

在这样的生活中，一个半小时已是相当长的时间。

An hour and a half is a lot of time in that life.

所以你得从某个点开始，要么是真正激发你灵感的想法，要么就直接动笔写点什么，先在纸上留下痕迹，渐渐地这就成了习惯。

So you've got to start with something, and either there's an idea that really are energized by or just you start writing something, get something on the page and bit by bit it becomes a habit.

或许这个习惯会发展演变，或许不会。

And maybe that habit evolves and maybe it doesn't.

或许你会放弃，又或许你会发现某个不断回响的念头在吸引着你。

And maybe you give it up and maybe you find that you then you get an idea, you find something you keep returning to and it pulls you.

它让你着迷。

It hypnotizes you.

它驱使你追随其轨迹，看它将去向何方，如何展开，直到某刻终于完成。

It makes you want to follow it, see where it will go to, see how it will develop, and then at a certain point it's done.

故事就此落幕。

It's played out.

或许你能引导它变得更精彩，在创作过程中学会构建，学会掌控方向，直到抵达那个必然的惊人结局——读者会感叹‘我早该料到’，而你自己也会恍然大悟。

Maybe you can guide that so that it becomes more exciting and you learn how to build as you're going along, and you learn how to direct it so that it's going to get to either a surprising end where it has to end and the reader is going say, I should have seen that, Or you're going to say, I should have seen that.

或者你会说，不可能，你在撒谎。

Or you're going go, No way, you're a liar.

我不会买这本书的。

I'm not going to buy this book.

但坚持每天6:45出现，就像砌砖一样必不可少。

But the showing up at 06:45 consistently is the bricklaying that's essential.

是的，因为这让你相信自己能成为作家。

Yeah, because it allows you to think that you could be a writer.

某种程度上是活在一个可能成真的幻想里。

Sort of living into a delusion that could be a reality.

可能是这样。

Could be.

也许这并非幻想，因为你一开始写下的就是非常有趣的句子。

And maybe it's not a delusion because maybe what you start to write immediately is a very interesting sentence or two.

某些日子会这样。

Some days.

也许吧。

Maybe.

有些

Some

日子。

days.

是啊，你不能指望每天都过得愉快。

Yeah, you can't expect a good time every day.

你可能想引用我这句话。

You might want to quote me on that.

你以早起著称，五点前就到健身房了。

You have a reputation for having risen early and gotten to the gym by five a.

早上

M.

长时间坚持每天锻炼后吃三个水煮鸡蛋，日复一日。

For two hours, eating three hard boiled eggs post workout, day in after day out for a very long time.

跟我们说说那个例行公事。

Tell us about that ritual.

你现在还享受它吗？

Do you still enjoy it?

那不是例行公事，我也从未享受过。

It's not a ritual and I never enjoyed it.

这是现实。

It's a reality.

你这么做是因为你需要一个可以挑战的工具。

And you do it because you need an instrument that you can challenge.

要想挑战某件事，你必须先了解它的立场。

And in order to challenge something, you've got to know how it stands.

我是说，可以挑战你，你不会希望我成为这件事的中心，但只有它已经站稳脚跟，我才能尝试推翻它。

I mean, could challenge you wouldn't want me to the centering of this, but I can only do it if it's already grounded, then I can try to throw it off.

你不能随便推翻事物。

You can't just throw things off.

必须先确立规则，才能打破规则，对吧？

They've got to be set before you can throw them off, right?

所以你只是为将来不得不做的那天设定了机制。

So that is you just set the mechanism for the day you're going to have to do it.

这有点无聊，也有点令人厌恶。

It's kind of boring and it's kind of loathsome.

老实说，我宁愿去健身房也不愿刷牙。

I would rather go to the gym than brush my teeth, I'll tell you that.

能否请你分享一下，在不想去的日子里，你内心的对话是怎样的？

Could you give us a bit of insight into your inner dialogue around days when you don't want to go?

会有自我对话吗？还是你已经学会把那些'今天就算了'的声音推到一边？

Is there a self talk or have you learned to push aside the voices as maybe not today?

不不不不不。

No, no, no, no, no.

很简单。

It's simple.

如果你不想工作时就不工作，那么当你想工作时也将无法工作。

If you don't work when you don't want to work, you're not going to be able to work when you do want to work.

就这么简单。

End of story.

你一直都是这样吗？

Were you always like this?

你所谓的‘这样’是指什么？

What do mean like this?

我不是那个意思，你知道我不是。

I didn't mean that in And that you know I didn't.

我不知道。

I don't.

你知道我不是那个意思。

You know I didn't.

你知道我不是那个意思。

You know I didn't.

我是说，你一直都这么自律，对努力工作的必要性有这么清晰的认识吗？

I meant, have you always been this disciplined and had this clear view of the necessity for hard work?

我母亲对任何人的生活来说都是一股非凡的力量。

My mother was an extraordinary force in anybody's life.

她恰好出现在了我的生活中。

She happened to be in mine.

我在很小的时候就被训练要练习。

I was trained as a very young child to practice.

任何事都需要反复练习。

Anything everything had to be practiced.

必须安排好练习时间，因为时间有限，不容浪费。

It had to be scheduled to be practiced, and time is limited and you don't waste it.

你要非常努力，并尽量充分利用这段时间，否则就是在挥霍光阴。

And you work very hard and you try to maximize that period of time because otherwise you're being wasteful.

虽然我说我来自圣贝纳迪诺，确实如此，但也不尽然。

And while I said I'm from San Bernardino, I am, but I'm not.

我来自中西部。

I am from the Midwest.

我出生在印第安纳州，八岁时离开了那里。

I was born in Indiana and left when I was eight.

但在那之前，我有幸长时间在祖父母的农场生活，父母不在身边，这些农场位于阿米什地区，家族是贵格会信徒。

But up until that point, I had the extraordinary good fortune of being on my grandparents' farm for long stretches of time without my parents, and these farms were in Amish territory and the family's Quaker.

土地就是土地，仅此而已。

And the land was the land, period.

那里没有电，没有电话，只有播种、培育、杀猪、拧鸡脖子，不干活就没饭吃。

There was no electricity, there were no phones, there was plant the seed, grow the seed, kill the hogs, ring the chicken's neck, and you work or you don't eat.

是啊。

Yeah.

中西部的精神风貌确实令人瞩目。

The Midwest sensibility is something to behold.

我在中西部有很多朋友。

I have a lot of friends in the Midwest.

那里的人们在相互交流方式上，以及他们的所知所不知方面，确实体现了一种真正的体面。

There's a real decency out there in terms of how people communicate with one another, what they do and don't know.

农民身上确实有种特别的东西。

And there's a real thing to farmers.

没错。

Yep.

在斯坦福做博士后时，实验室里有个MD PhD学生。

At Stanford, when I was a postdoc, there was a MD PhD student in the laboratory.

她是在一个蘑菇农场长大的——不是致幻蘑菇，是那种可食用不会产生幻觉的——位于宾夕法尼亚州的乡村。

She had grown up on a mushroom farm, not the psilocybin mushrooms, the kind you eat and don't hallucinate, on a mushroom farm in rural Pennsylvania.

她的工作态度，即便在斯坦福医学院这种人均拼命三郎的地方也显得格外突出。

And her work ethic, and this is at Stanford School of Medicine where people are very driven, not just on average.

对。

Right.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

她的工作态度简直难以置信。

Her work ethic was unbelievable.

没错。

Yeah.

而她对此的乐观态度也同样令人难以置信。

And her cheerfulness about it was also unbelievable.

是的。

Yeah.

那真是太棒了。

It was spectacular.

那种愉悦感，是啊。

The delight, Yeah.

在

In

她曾遭遇一场自行车事故，少数人可能知道她是谁。

She had a bike accident on a few people will know who this is.

她在校园里经历了一场严重的自行车事故，撞掉了所有牙齿。

She had a horrible bike accident on campus, knocked out all her teeth.

有人突然走到她车前，而她戴着假牙就回到了实验室工作，大概只用了四十八小时。

Someone stepped out in front of her with was back in the laboratory with falsies in and working, I think within like forty eight hours.

这种事搁别人身上肯定要休养更长时间。

This would have put anyone else out for a much longer time.

我后来没再关注她的消息，但我确信无论她在哪里，都已成为一位杰出的医生或科学家。

I haven't kept up with her, but I'm sure that she's a spectacular physician, scientist, wherever she is.

但农耕这部分确实有其独特之处。

But there's really something to the the farming piece.

这是集体性的，虽然这些农场很偏远——我是说，百亩地块之间用树篱隔开——但总有人在背后支持着你。

It is communal, and it is the sense that while these farms are very isolated, I mean, you know, 100 acre plots that are divided by tree barriers from one another, somebody has your back all the time.

我还保留着祖母的绗缝架，当初需要八位女性合作——四人一组，完成一床被子后要制作八床，每人分得一床。

I still have my grandmother's quilting frames and when established, it required eight women, four to a side, and the quilt gets done and then you make eight of them and each one gets a quilt.

要知道，要完成建造谷仓这样的大工程，你必须借助外界的力量才能实现，而且你欠他们这份人情。

And you know that to do the big job, the barn that's got to get up, you have to utilize forces outside yourself in order to accomplish this and that you owe them.

这不是义务，而是一种分享。

And you want to it's not an obligation, it's a sharing.

你心里明白：好吧，我得到了这座谷仓。

And you understand, Okay, I'm getting that barn.

我就得为其他七座谷仓（或类似的事）出力回报。

I owe services here for seven more barns or whatever.

这是件极好的事情。

This is an excellent thing.

我也尝试用这种方式看待舞蹈，我认为一部编排精良的舞蹈就是一个良好的共同体。

And I do try to think of dance that way, and I do think a well made dance is a good community.

这就是理想中的社会形态。

It's society as it ought to be.

它展现了人类应有的协作方式。

It works the way we should work together.

你提到了贵格会。

You mentioned Quaker.

对。

Yep.

我去参加过几次贵格会的聚会。

I've been to a couple of Quaker meetings.

静默聚会那种？

Silent meetings?

是的。

Yeah.

偶尔会有人站起来发言。

Every once in a while someone would stand up and say something.

我有位朋友——当时我快读完硕士时住的地方附近就有个贵格会之家，我和一个常在咖啡店喝咖啡聊天的哥们熟络起来。

I had a friend who was a there's a Quaker house near where I used to live when I was finishing my masters and I got became friendly with a guy outside because we would drink coffee, the same coffee shop and chat.

他就说，你应该来参加次聚会。

And he was like, you should come to a meeting.

你可能会觉得挺有意思的。

You might find it interesting.

当我走进去时，我就知道这是个充满善意的地方。

And I I knew I was in a a benevolent place when I walked in.

因为在加州伯克利，如果有人跟你说'嘿，你应该来参加个聚会'，你心里会嘀咕，不知道会碰上什么事。

Because you know, in Berkeley, California, if somebody says, hey, you should come to a meeting and you're like, you know, you're like, you don't know what you're getting into.

对吧？

Right?

不过他们墙上挂着桂格燕麦大叔的照片当玩笑。

But they had a a picture of the Quaker Oats guy on the wall as a joke.

我就知道，这些人能拿自己开涮。

I knew I was like, okay, these they can poke some fun at themselves.

所以是的，偶尔会有人站起来说点什么，大家会有些思考。

So, yeah, someone would stand up every once in a while, say something, there was some reflection.

最后大家互相道别就各自离开了。

And then at the end, everyone kind of like said goodbye and took off.

挺有意思的。

Was interesting.

是啊，对我来说那些日子是周三晚上，都是静默会议。

Yeah, those days for me were Wednesday evenings, and they were silent meetings.

有些会议全程没人发言。

And there would be meetings where no one had anything to say.

就是纯粹的静默会议。

They were silent meetings.

简单来说：你可以在这里帮帮我。

And simply: You can help me out here.

他们不用语言交流，但脑电波肯定在传递。

They were not using language, but surely neural rays were going out.

如果当时发生文化灾难，比如大火或其他可怕事件，你知道人们都在思考什么，你能感知那种思维——过去、现在乃至未来都存在一种非语言的交流方式，甚至不需要用手语，而是通过我们当年称之为'氛围'的感知。

And probably if there had been a catastrophe in the culture, some kind of huge fire or something awful, you know that people are thinking, you have a sense of what that thinking is, and that there was and is and can be a kind of nonverbal communication that's not even a physical you're not using sign language to communicate, but that you have a sense of what we called in the day in the air.

这是一种非常强大的交流形式，可惜我们现在已不再重视。

And that is a very powerful form of communication that we don't really respect anymore.