罗伯特·杰克逊·班尼特访谈——《污浊之杯》作者！

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

我是科迪·特罗耶。

I'm Cody Troyer.

我是布伦特·盖斯福德。

And I'm Brent Gaceford.

我们是雨果帮。

And we are the Hugonots.

这次，我们不讲《云图》。

This time, we are not doing Cloud Atlas.

我们以后会讲的，因为我们有机会采访了作者罗伯特·杰克逊·贝内特，他刚刚凭借《被污染的杯子》获得了雨果奖最佳长篇小说奖。

We will do that sometime down the road because we got a chance to interview the author Robert Jackson Bennett, who just won the Hugo for best novel for the tainted cup.

而他

And he

在节目中吃掉任何帽子。

is eating any hats on the show.

嘿。

Hey.

布伦特没有吃任何帽子。

Brent's not eating any hats.

我们非常兴奋能和罗伯特交谈，所以我们决定改做这个。

We're so excited to talk to, Robert, and so we thought we'd do that instead.

是的。

Yes.

下一集，我们将讨论雅克琳·哈特曼的《我从未认识男人》，这是一部短小而疯狂的反乌托邦作品，我们将在Discord的读书会中讨论它。

And next episode, we'll be talking about I Who Have Never Known Men by Jacqueline Hartman, which is a short, wild dystopia that we're doing for part of the book club on Discord.

如果想在节目播出前讨论它，就去那里加入吧。

So hop on over there if you wanna talk about it before the episode comes out.

但真的很期待和大家聊聊这部作品。

But really looking forward to talking to that about that one.

它非常发人深省。

It's super thought provoking.

嗯。

Yeah.

那么，不多说了

So without further ado

非常感谢你加入我们，罗伯特。

Thank you so much for joining us, Robert.

我们对此非常期待。

We're so excited about this.

嗯。

Yeah.

欢迎来到节目。

Welcome to the show.

很高兴能来这里。

Happy to be here.

好的。

Okay.

所以首先，我们对《污染之杯》以及你的成功感到无比高兴。

So first, we are such we're so, so, so happy about the Tainted Cup and your success.

但不管怎样，告诉我们，赢得雨果奖的感觉如何？

But anyway, so tell us, what was it what was it like winning the Hugo?

你庆祝了吗？怎么庆祝的？

What did you do to celebrate?

到目前为止，我觉得我什么都没做，因为八月通常是全年最不适合做任何事的月份之一。

So far, I think I've done nothing because August is like one of the worst months to do anything.

我哥哥和他全家在这里住了差不多两周。

I had my brother-in-law and his whole family over here for like two weeks.

开学季也开始了。

We got the start of school.

这是我妻子的生日，也是我们的结婚纪念日。

It's my wife's birthday and our anniversary.

实际上，今天就是我们的结婚纪念日。

It's actually today is our anniversary.

生日快乐。

Happy anniversary.

所以，我记得那天，我根本没睡好，再加上我孩子开始在高中踢足球，这意味着我们得早上五点半、五点四十五就起床，送他去那里，六点半就得到。

And so like the day of, if I recall, I won't like, and on top of all this, my kid has been starting to play football at high school, which means we gotta get up at 05:30, 05:45 in the morning and drop him off to be there at 06:30.

真不错，你找到了

Nice, you found

第二天才得知。

out the next day.

你当时醒着吗？

Were you even awake?

是啊，没有。

Yeah, no.

所以我九点半就睡着了，直到凌晨十二点四十五分，我的经纪人给我打了个电话。

And so I passed out at 09:30, and it wasn't until I got a phone call from my agent at 12:45AM.

我错过了那个电话。

And I missed the call.

我想我当时拒接了那个电话，因为没意识到是经纪人打来的。

I think I actually rejected the call because I didn't realize it was from my agent.

因为凌晨12:45接到电话，你只会觉得生气。

Because you get a phone call at 12:45 in the morning, you're just pissed.

但我躺在床里想了一会儿，然后心想：那通电话是干嘛的？

But I lay there in bed for a bit and then I was like, what was that about?

于是我查看了一下，发现她给我留了语音留言，说我赢得了雨果奖，拿到了一个雨果奖。

And then I looked and saw that she'd left me a voicemail saying that I won the Hugo's, won a Hugo.

然后我登录了社交媒体，发现一切都炸了。

And then I logged into social media and saw things were just exploding.

我真的不敢相信。

And I really couldn't believe it.

然后我又得回去睡觉。

And then I had to go back to bed.

第二天我还得搬动一台佩洛顿健身车。

And the next day I had to move a Peloton.

我得起床，把一台佩洛顿健身车和一台跑步机从我岳父母家搬出去。

I had to wake up and move a Peloton and move, what is it, a treadmill out of my in law's house.

而且当时家里全是小孩子。

And I had like little, like all the toddlers over.

我的意思是，我根本没机会做太多事情。

I mean, I really didn't get chance to do a lot of stuff really.

我能理解你有和我一样的问题。

I can you have the same problem I do.

我想，对于这种问题，我也会给出类似的回答，而我妻子总想说服我，庆祝好事是可以的。

Think I this was this is the kind of answer I would also give to a question like this, and my wife is always trying to convince me that I need to like it's okay to celebrate good things.

所以，总之我要告诉你，这是一件非常好的事。

So anyway, I'm gonna tell you that, which is like, this is a very good thing.

你可以庆祝一下。

You could celebrate.

这样是没问题的。

That would be okay.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

事实上，我还要庆祝一下，因为我们太喜欢你的书了。

And in fact, I'm also gonna celebrate because we loved your book so much.

我非常喜欢你的书。

I loved your book so much.

当我们回顾所有雨果奖提名作品以及2024年我们读过的其他最佳科幻和奇幻小说时，我觉得你的书远远超越了去年出版的其他所有作品。

When we reviewed all the Hugo nominees and the other, like, best sci fi and fantasy books that we read from 2024, we you know, I thought your book was so far and above the the greatest book written last year.

真的太棒了。

I mean, so good.

是的。

Yes.

总之，我曾在我们的节目中承诺过，如果你没有赢得雨果奖，我就在节目中吃掉一顶帽子。

Anyway, so I promised on our show that if you did not win the Hugo, I was gonna eat a hat on show.

我想我在邮件里看到过。

I think I saw that in the email.

嗯。

Yeah.

而且，是的，我本来打算这么做的。

And, yeah, and I was gonna do it.

很多听众建议我可以像北极探险家一样煮皮革，那样也不会害死我。

A bunch of listeners were suggesting maybe I could, like, boil leather, like, as an Arctic explorer, and that wouldn't kill me.

总之，我不用再纠结这些了。

Anyway, I don't have to figure any of that out.

所以，我现在要穿上我的庆祝服装。

So instead, 'm I'm gonna wear my celebration outfit here.

我要尽量和‘有污渍的杯子’这个主题保持一致。

I'm gonna try to be in theme with tainted cups.

所以我选了带菠萝图案的丛林风衣服。

So I got jungle with the pineapples.

而我能接近炼金术的，大概就像巫术一样。

And then the the closest I could get to alchemy is kinda like witchcraft.

所以，无论如何，我们将以丛林炼金术士的身份来完成剩下的采访，以示庆祝。

So anyway, we're gonna do the rest of the interview as a as a jungle alchemist in celebration.

但是

But

是的。

Yeah.

戴着帽子，你就不用吃东西了。

With a hat, you don't have to eat.

是的。

Yeah.

戴着帽子，我就不用吃东西了。

With a hat, I don't have to eat.

所以，总之，恭喜你。

So anyway, yes, congratulations.

我通过不让自己消化不良来和你一起庆祝，这真是实至名归。

I'm celebrating with you by not giving myself indigestion, and it's so well deserved.

这是一本极其出色的书。

It's such an incredible book.

所以，总之，今天能和你聊天我非常兴奋。

So, anyway, really excited to talk with you today.

完全同意。

Totally agree.

完全同意。

Totally agree.

刚看完《腐败之滴2》，也特别棒。

And just finished drop of corruption two, also so good.

太棒了。

So fantastic.

谢谢。

Thank you.

关于这两本书，我们有一些具体的问题。

And and to get into those two, we had some specific questions about them.

我们第一个问题是，是什么让你选择生物学作为《染污之杯》和《腐败之滴》中卡拉姆的技术基础？

Our first one was what made you settle on biology as the technology in tainted cup, drop of corruption in Karoom?

是什么吸引你创造出植物生命，并将其作为人们的技术？

Like, what what drew you to creating plant life that becomes the technology of the people?

我想我很久以来一直在思考，我们的许多生活实际上在很多方面仍然是生物魔法。

I think I've thought a long time about the way that a lot of our lives are actually still biological magic in a lot of ways.

比如农业本身是非常不自然的。

Like agriculture itself is a very unnatural thing.

它非常混乱。

It's very messy.

它非常困难。

It's very hard.

但如果你看看玉米最初的样子，它简直看起来像完全无关的东西。

But if you look at how corn looked when it first existed, it looks like absolutely nothing.

李子、橙子、苹果，我们花了数千年的时间才将它们培育成今天的样子。

Plums, oranges, apples, we have really worked on these things for thousands of years to make them what they are today.

但现在却出现了一种潮流，提倡要天然饮食。

And it's weird that we have this movement right now about trying to eat naturally.

我们希望过上自然的生活。

We want to be like living naturally.

我们希望尽可能贴近人类社会的原始自然状态。

We want to be as close to the like natural state of human society that we can.

但事实上，没有什么是真正自然的。

But really nothing is very natural.

我们所做的一切，都与自然界所能接受的东西相去甚远。

Nothing that we do at all is anywhere close to something that would be received by nature.

我甚至不确定‘自然’到底意味着什么。

Like I'm not even sure what that really means to be natural.

这一点困扰了我很长一段时间。

And that had bothered me for a goodish bit.

因此，当我开始思考魔法时，我希望它能涉及许多系统和环境控制，成为一个只有大规模国家才能应对的重大问题。

And so when I started thinking about magic, I wanted it be something that had to touch a lot of like systems, environmental controls, to have to be a problem that was so significant that only a large scale state could manage it.

因为在奇幻小说中，你很少看到一个非常活跃且连贯的国家。

Because that's something that you don't see a lot in fantasy fiction is like a state that's very active and coherent.

同意。

Agreed.

你确实看不到这样的国家。

You don't see that.

更有趣的是，我是一个向这位国王宣誓的国王，而这位国王又向另一位国王宣誓。

It's way more fun to be like, I'm a king with an oath to this king, who's got an oath to this king.

我们所有人都有誓言。

And we've all got oaths.

我们像交换宝可梦卡片一样交换誓言。

We're trading oaths like Pokemon cards.

拥有一个更复杂、更稳固的国家要有趣得多，这个国家正努力应对所有这些问题，并思考这些系统之间如何相互影响。

It was way more fun to have a more complex state that was very robust, that was trying to deal with all these problems, and was thinking about the way that all of these systems would touch one another.

于是这两点结合起来，形成了一种有趣的方式，让读者不得不直面这样一个观念：这既是自然的非自然，又是非自然的自然。

So those two things kind of came together, and it was sort of a fun way to kind of rub the reader's nose in the idea of this is naturally unnatural or unnaturally natural.

同时也进一步强调一个观念：自然本身并不关心其中存在的任何事物。

As well as to sort of hammer home the idea that nature doesn't really care about anything that's in it.

它可以是美丽的、震撼的、令人惊叹的，但对自然本身而言，没有任何东西是不能失去和被遗忘的。

It can be beautiful, and it can be stunning, and it can be amazing, but at the same time to nature itself, nothing is something that can't be lost and forgotten.

因此，我想重新确立我们对自然的认知：它既极其强大，又常常极其敌对。

And so I wanted to sort of reground our perception of nature as something that is immensely powerful, but also frequently immensely hostile.

尤其是当你回到瘟疫、疾病、传染病等种种灾难的时代时。

Especially if you go back to the era of plagues, sicknesses, contagion, all kinds of things like that.

这些正是我想在书中探讨的主题。

Those are all things that I wanted to hit on the book as

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得这一切都表现得极其出色。

And I think it all came through amazingly.

我觉得另一种具有现代感或与我们世界相关的是你设定的冲突阶段和角色本身。

What also feels modern, I guess, or relevant to our world is your stages of conflict and the characters themselves.

比如在《腐败的滴落》中，医疗债务是一个问题。

Like, in drop of corruption, you have medical debt is an issue.

对于丹尼斯来说，他必须承担已故父亲留下的医疗债务。

Some conflict for Denis, the the medical debt of his dead father that he has to relieve.

这感觉非常现代，而且 stakes 也显得非常当代。

And that just feels so modern, and the stakes feel very modern.

你的书感觉更像是一部设定在奇妙幻想世界中的新闻惊悚片或企业惊悚片，这是有意为之吗？

It feels more like your books feel more like maybe a journalistic thriller or a corporate thriller set in this awesome fantasy world, and is that is that intentional?

你在写作时是否刻意将这种现实元素带入奇幻世界？

Do you try to bring that to the fantasy realm when you're writing?

是的，有一点。

Yeah, a bit.

我认为，如果你读过18世纪英国人挣扎的故事，其中很大一部分都是关于债务管理的。

I do think if you read stories of folks struggling in England in the eighteenth century, a huge amount of it is just debt management.

每个人都欠着债，大家都在想办法摆脱债务。

Everyone's in debt, and they're all trying to figure out how to get out of debt.

你要么穷困潦倒，只为求生，要么就得不断管理自己的债务。

It's either like you are poor and just trying to stay alive, or you're trying to manage your debt constantly.

我当时就想，天啊，这听起来太熟悉了。

And I thought like, I was like, man, that sounds real familiar.

我想探讨一下这种感觉——它既如此现代，又极其古老。

And I wanted to touch upon that where it feels like something that's so modern, but is also extremely old.

像英国的大多数富人，都特别不会理财，因为他们觉得有义务维持远超自己支付能力的生活水平。

Like most of like the wealthy folks in England were terrible with money and were constantly, because they had felt obliged to maintain a level of living that was way beyond their means.

所以他们经常疯狂地缺钱。

And so they were frequently just running out of money like crazy.

这就是我想探讨的一个方面。

So that was something that I wanted to touch on.

但没错，我确实认为，无论从运作方式还是世界本质来看，这都更接近科幻而非奇幻。

But yes, I definitely think that there's a lot of ways that this is more aligned with science fiction than it is with fantasy, both in how it works and the nature of the world.

但我确实觉得我正在更多地关注我们自己的社会。

But I do think I'm trying to turn an eye a little bit more on our own society.

但我还认为，这里有一点《星际迷航》的影子，这很不寻常。

But I also think something that is unusual is that there's a little bit of Star Trek streak here too.

而不同之处在于，在这些书中，当世界和社会出现重大问题时，他们通常会真诚地努力去解决这些问题。

And that what's unusual is that in these books, when there are big problems with the world and society, they usually try and work really hard to stop them in good faith.

比如，如果有人做了错事，他们真的会试图将他关进监狱。

Like if someone is doing something wrong, they will actually try and put them in jail.

如果很多人生病了，他们就会真正努力去治愈他们。

If there are a lot of people sick, then they will actually try and heal them.

当我第一次向人们展示这一点时，这引起了一些困惑，因为他们只是假设泰坦是虚构的，不是真实的，或者是由政府造成的之类的东西。

And like that was something that received a bit of confusion when I first showed this to people, because they just assumed that like the Titans were made up, that they weren't real, or that they were caused by the government or something like that.

我说，不，我真的很想构建一个有国家、有社会的世界，而这个社会大部分时候都在努力做正确的事。

I'm like, no, I really wanted to have a world where there is a state, there is a society, and it's mostly trying to do the right thing.

想想看，我不确定你是否能写出一部……我认为你可以写一部黑色小说，但像谋杀悬疑小说，你真的无法写出一个世界崩坏、无人获得正义的故事，因为那会显得太安逸了。

Think, and I actually don't know if you can write a, I think like a noir you could write, but like a murder mystery, you really can't write where the world is broken and no one gets their justice urged, because that's a little bit cozier.

是的。

Yeah.

就像你必须让波洛找到凶手并把他送进监狱。

Like you have to have like Poirot find the killer and put them in jail.

尽管事情无法完全挽回，但凭借他非凡的智慧，还是实现了一定程度的正义。

And although things can't be put right, there is a measure of justice done due to his like how smart he is, pretty much.

对。

Right.

但你绝对不可能写出一个反乌托邦式的、温馨型的谋杀谜案，这行不通。

But you really can't have a dystopic, like cozy kind of murder mystery, you can't do that.

我认为这也是它的魅力之一：它带有一丝温馨感，即使故事中有植物从人体中长出并将其撕碎。

And I think that that's part of the appeal of this as well, is it has a touch, a dab of being a little cozy, even though it's got plants that grow out of people and rip them to pieces.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

帝国的规模以及为拯救所有人免受利维坦和疾病侵害而团结一致的凝聚力，也体现在允许对个人行为负责的司法体系中。

And the size of the empire and the cohesion in coming together to save everyone from the Leviathans and from disease, as you say, is also the system of justice that allows somebody to be held accountable for their actions.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但他们明确表示：我们这么做并不是因为这是对的事。

But they're upfront in saying like, we're not doing this because it's the right thing.

我们这么做是因为，如果你不在最高层维持秩序，一切都会分崩离析。

We are doing this because if you don't maintain order at the highest level, everything falls to pieces.

那样我们就无法遏制泰坦了。

And then we can't keep back the titans.

所有问题最终都回归到一点：国家为何存在？

That's what it all comes back to, is why does the state exist?

我们为何要作为一个社会而存在？

Why do we exist as a society?

为了做这件事，我们需要人们健康、聪明，并具有平等的意识。

Is to do this thing and to do this thing, we need folks healthy, smart, have a sense of like equality.

因此，他们必须投资于人民并保护他们，因为他们知道，如果不这样做，一切都会分崩离析。

So they are obliged to invest in their people and protect them because they know that if they don't do this, then things are gonna fall to pieces.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为就类型而言，最好直接称其为科幻小说。

And I think per the genre element, I think almost best to call this just speculative fiction, really.

我不知道你是否同意这种分类，但这种作品确实超越了奇幻范畴。

I don't know if you'd agree with that designation, but this is something that kind of goes beyond fantasy.

我知道根据《腐败之滴》的后记，你对奇幻小说整体，尤其是近期的奇幻作品有一些看法。

And I know based on the afterword of Drop of Corruption, you had some issues with fantasy in general and especially recent fantasy.

听起来你希望创作一种作品，让每个人都参与其中，帝国中的所有人都成为解决方案的一部分，就像你刚才提到的那样——不是只有一个国王、非黑即白的善恶对立，也不是只有一个英雄拯救所有人。

It sounded like you wanted to make something has an element where everyone is involved and all the people in the empire are part of a solution, like you were just alluding to, where it's not just one king, one binary good versus evil, one person who's a hero who saves everyone.

你能就此多谈一点吗？

Would speak a little bit on that?

当然。

Sure.

我认为，要写一个以王权观念为核心道德的故事非常困难。

I think it's really tough to write a story where a lot of the morals are based around the idea of kingship.

因为一方面，如果你希望故事阳光乐观，它就会显得几乎像宗教一样。

Because on the one hand you either, like if you want it to be sunny and like optimistic, then it feels very religious almost.

我们必须让正确的血脉重返王座，以拯救王国。

We've got to get the proper bloodline back on the throne to save the realm.

你可以把国王看作是神。

And that is, like you could see the king is God.

你可以把国王看作是受神祝福的。

You could see the king as blessed by God.

这有点像《魔戒》，你能看到一些类似的元素：他体内流淌着远古衰落时代的高贵血统，因此他必须重返王座，世界才会变得更好。

This is something like the Lord of the Rings a little bit, that you can see a little bit of stuff there where he's got this higher bloodline within him from the fallen days of yore, and that's why he needs to be back on the throne and things will be better.

这种设定会让人感觉有点怪异，而且很难将其转化为现代凡人的感受。

That can feel kind of weird, and it's really tough to translate that into a sense of modern mortals.

我认为，这些设定几乎可以看作是一种外星式的概念。

I think that they are kind of worth looking at almost as like an alien sort of a conceit.

我们和他们完全不一样，但很难不从你所读的故事中汲取教训。

Like we're not like them whatsoever, but it's tough not to draw lessons from the stories that you're reading.

但这是事情光明的一面。

But that's the sunny side of things.

在黑暗的一面，我们似乎非常享受观看国王通过暴力和残忍来展现王权。

On the darker side of things, we seem to really enjoy watching kings be kings through brutality and cruelty.

而我们最常说的一句话是：这些事情确实发生过。

And the thing that we love saying the most is like, well, these things actually happen.

这就是过去的样子。

This is how things used to be.

所以我们需要这样想：正因如此，我观看这些内容，对其中的乱伦、强奸等情节感到着迷，才算是合理的。

And we need to, like, that's why it's okay for me to watch this stuff and be fascinated by all the incest and rape and things like that.

这没问题，但世界上还有很多其他的历史。

And that's fine, but there's like, there's a lot of other history out there too.

我认为，这仅仅反映了过去二十年我们对世界不公的意识——有些人可以为所欲为，有些人极其残忍，且乐在其中。

And I think that it just kind of taps into an awareness we've had in the past two decades of unfairness in the world, that there are people who can get away with anything, that there are people who are enormously cruel and they delight in it.

而我们唯一能对此获得掌控感的方式，就是想象自己成为这样的人。

And the only way that we can have a sense of control with that is to imagine ourselves as these people.

就像你打不过他们，就加入他们。

Like if you can't beat them, join them.

我认为，我们正看到这类小说的部分读者和观众开始把自己想象成的，不是受害者。

And I think that we're seeing some of the readers and the audience of this style of fiction starting to imagine themselves, not as the victims.

你从不会把自己当成受害者，而是想象自己是那个肆意放纵的暴虐王子。

You never think of yourself as the victim, but as the monstrous rich prince who gets up to all sort of like debauched things.

我认为这并不好。

And I don't think that's great.

所以我特别想写一个普通人，他并不特别，当然也有自己的问题，但在出身或行为上，都与精英阶层毫无相似之处。

So I wanted to write very much about someone who was not special, who was an average person, has his own problems, sure, but is not alike either in his birth or even kind of in what he does, someone of elite status.

而丹就是这样一个人。

And Den is that.

他是个相当聪明的23岁小伙子。

He is a reasonably smart 23 year old dude.

但他所做的并不是在与巨人搏斗。

But what he's doing is not like he's not fighting the titans.

他也没有在拯救世界。

He's not healing the world.

他只是想弄清楚是谁杀了这个人，并把他们送进监狱。

He's just trying to figure out who killed this guy and to put them in jail.

仅此而已。

And that's it.

是的。

Yeah.

正如安娜在《Drop》结尾所指出的，这很有价值。

And as Anna points out at the end of Drop, that's valuable.

这是这个世界真正需要的东西。

That's something the world really needs.

他不需要成为英雄。

He doesn't need to be heroic.

所以我觉得我特别喜欢那个场景。

So I thought I I loved that scene.

说到安娜，安娜这个角色是从哪里来的？

Speaking of Anna too, where where did Anna come from?

安娜是个非常出色的角色。

Anna's such a fabulous character.

我喜欢安娜，我觉得其他每个人也都喜欢她。

I love Anna, and I think everyone everyone else does too.

安娜·达拉布拉这个角色的灵感来自哪里？

What where's what's the inspiration for Anna Dallabra?

嗯，这有点好笑。

Well, it's kinda funny.

当我第一次写这个剧本的初稿时，疯狂的角色是丹，他是主角。

When I first wrote a draft of this, it was Den who was crazy, and he was the main character.

而安娜就像是他的控制器，她冷漠、精于算计、疏离，还很奇怪，甚至有点刻薄。

And Anna was like his controller and she was cold and calculating and aloof and very strange and kind of mean.

但丹是个醉醺醺的疯子。

But Den was the drunken nut job.

这个版本的初稿因为很多原因根本行不通。

And that draft really didn't work for a lot of reasons.

但我出去散步，试图思考该怎么做。

But I went for a walk trying to think about what to do.

然后我意识到，当这是一个侦探故事时，侦探必须是那个古怪的人。

And I realized I was like, when it is a detective story, the detective has to be the weird one.

像夏洛克·福尔摩斯之类的人，必须是那个疯子。

The Sherlock Holmes or whoever has to be the nut job.

这才是应该有的设定。

That's how that is supposed to work.

他们必须是那个古怪的人。

They have to be the quirky one.

一旦我想通了这一点，我就意识到，在我写《铸铁之地》时，书中的一个角色是个天才，年纪较大，而且有点混蛋。

And once I got that around my head, I realized when I wrote Foundryside, one of the characters in that was a genius and he was like older and sort of a shitbag.

尽管他后来努力赎罪，但让他冲着别人大喊大叫真的非常有趣。

Although he worked to redeem himself later, but it was really fun just having him scream at people.

让他训斥别人简直太爽了。

It's a lot of fun just having him ball people out.

我心想，我真想写更多这样的场景：一个年长的人，享受着惹恼每个人的快感，说出各种话，而没人能回击他。

And I was like, I really want to write more scenes where an older person who delights in upsetting everybody says all these things and like no one is allowed, can like come back at them.

没错，她就是这样的角色。

And yeah, that was her.

一旦我脑子里有了这个想法，意识到她本来就应该这样，故事就开始朝这个方向转变了。

Once I had that sort of in my head, like I realized that that was who she was meant to be, Things started to shift towards that way.

不过，直到我试着回想时才明白，因为她是以雷克斯·斯托特的《狼》系列中的角色为原型的，那个人也是个十足的混蛋。

It really wasn't until though, like I was trying to think, because she's based off of like the Wolf books by Rex Stout, who is also a total jerk.

他是个天才侦探。

He is a brilliant detective.

他非常肥胖。

He's very obese.

他从不出门。

He won't ever leave his house.

他喜欢喝啤酒，喜欢他的花和所有兰花。

Loves to drink beer, loves his flowers and all of his orchids.

他工作只是为了钱。

And he doesn't, like he only works for money.

就是这样。

That's it.

他对待金钱是个十足的混蛋。

He's a total jerk about money.

总之，我最初把她部分设定成他那样的。

Anyway, I had her based a little bit off of him at first.

那是最初的灵感来源。

That was the first like inspiration.

但后来我意识到，如果事情稍有不同，她就会成为反派，这种设定会很有趣。

But then I realized it would be fun if you got the sense that if things were just a little different, she would be the bad guy.

因为她给人的感觉就是邪恶的。

Because she scans as evil.

当你第一次见到她时，你会觉得这个人很邪恶。

When you first see her, you're like, that person is evil.

于是我意识到，我们其实有一个刻板印象，就是那种邪恶的人被关在房间里，就像汉尼拔·莱克特那样。

And I realized that we actually have a trope for like someone who is like evil, who is trapped in a room and it's Hannibal Lecter.

一旦我意识到这一点，我就觉得安娜更像是汉尼拔·莱克特式的人物，而不是普通的侦探。

And so once I realized I was like, Oh, Anna is more of a Hannibal Lecter character than she is like a common detective.

这一切都变得很有道理了。

That all made a lot of sense.

而且汉尼拔有食人的欲望，他喜欢吞噬这些谋杀案的故事。

And also because Hannibal has the appetite, he loves to consume like the stories of all these like murders.

他似乎很喜欢生肉。

He seems to love raw meat.

而正是在这里，你开始意识到她不仅仅是个侦探，她可能是一种掠食者，几乎像一种不同的人类物种。

And like that's where you start to get the sense of that she isn't just a detective, she might be a predator of a kind, like a different species of human being almost.

没错。

Yeah.

这引发了一系列问题。

Which leads to all kinds of problems.

没错。

Yeah.

而且她也是一个极其出色的角色。

And just a fabulous character as well.

谢谢您详细说明这一点。

So thanks for outlining that.

我们知道，这个系列的第三本书，听起来会是一个三部曲。

And we know that the third book in the series, it is going to be a trilogy, sounds like.

可能会不止这些。

Might be more than that.

好的。

Okay.

嗯。

Yeah.

我觉得我们现在可能要看五本了，但我还没签完所有合同。

I think I think we're looking at five now, but I haven't written all the contracts for all

那部分还没呢。

that yet.

好的。

Okay.

很好。

Good.

我的意思是，我已经签了。

I mean, I've written signed them.

呼。

Phew.

我的笔记里写着，本来应该是三部曲。

I mean, I have in the notes here that I was like, it's supposed to be a trilogy.

你好像在做三部曲，但我能读二十本这样的书。

It seems like you do trilogies, but I could read 20 of these.

所以，是啊。

So Yeah.

请继续出新的吧。

Keep keep them coming, please.

我们在Discord上讨论了很多关于利维坦的事情。

We had a lot of talk on our Discord about the Leviathans.

嗯。

Mhmm.

随着故事推进，我们会了解到更多关于利维坦的信息吗？

Are we going to find out any more about the Leviathans as we go?

比如在这本书里，故事后半部分基本上有两个主要主题。

Like in this one, so there's basically two main themes that are happening in the back end of these stories.

泰坦是什么？它们想要什么？

What are the Titans and what do they want?

还有像卡努姆这样的人是谁？他们发生了什么事？

And who are like Canoom, and like what happened to them?

他们是从哪里来的？

Where'd they come from?

他们到底是什么？

What were they?

这本书将深入探讨后者。

This book will delve into the latter one.

下一本书将关于泰坦。

The next book will be about the titans.

因为我知道人们喜欢巨型怪物。

Because I know people like the giant monsters.

他们 definitely 想要看到这些。

They definitely want to have that.

但你能稍微深入一下，看看一个由聪明的外星人类种族统治了三四百年，然后突然消失的世界是多么诡异。

But you get to sort of tap in a little bit to see like how weird it was to have a race of brilliant alien humanoids rule for like three or four centuries and then suddenly vanish.

是的。

Yeah.

这本书会再稍微深入探讨一下这一点。

It's going to delve a little bit into that a bit more.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

我对这个谜团也很期待，因为你们巧妙地将安娜和丹尼斯这些更人性化的、真实的谋杀谜团融入了这个世界，展示了世界的样貌，同时抛出种种线索，却没有超越故事应有的发展节奏。

I'm excited about that mystery as well because it's fun that you've you've placed these these smaller, more human mysteries of Anna and Denis and and their actual murders murder mysteries within the world and just kind of shown what the world's like and given us all these teases without going past where the story feels like it needs to go.

做得非常巧妙。

It's artfully done.

第三本书的名字是什么？什么时候出版？

And what is the title of the third book, and when is it coming out?

明年某个时候吗？

Next year sometime?

血脉的特质。

A Trait of Blood.

故事围绕两个极其富有的家族展开。

It is about two families that are extremely like wealthy.

他们养牛，并且长期存在恩怨。

They raise cattle and they've had a long running feud.

突然发生了一起可怕的谋杀案，看起来像是一个家族的儿子杀害了另一个家族的女孩。

And then suddenly there is a horrible murder, and it looks like a son from one family has cut up a girl from the other.

事情有可能演变成战争。

And it's possible that things could break out into war.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

All right.

有意思。

Interesting.

它什么时候发布？

And when's it coming out?

我不知道。

I don't know.

这是个好问题。

That's a good question.

我正在努力完成它。

I'm working to finish it.

我写了一个完整的初稿，然后寄了出去。

I wrote like a whole draft and then I sent it in.

这是一件我不得不经常做的事情。

This is something I had to do a lot.

我意识到我其实并不太喜欢它。

And I realized I really don't like it that much.

所以我们把整个东西都扔了，尤其是因为我一直看到很多人说他们很喜欢这些书。

So we threw the whole thing away, especially because I kept seeing all these people say, love these books.

它们太棒了。

They're so good.

它们太出色了。

They're so wonderful.

我当时就想，这个作品至少得相当不错。

And I was like, well, this one's actually gotta be pretty good.

我不能让它只拿个B-。

I can't have it be like b minus.

它至少得是B+。

It's gotta be at least b plus.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，《腐败之滴》果然没让人失望。

Well, drop of corruption did not disappoint.

说到这里，我们非常喜欢这些书，但《透明度》，我们还没读过你的其他作品。

Well, on that note, so we loved these books so much, but transparency, we haven't read any of your other work yet.

我们接下来该读什么？

What should we read next?

你还有另外两部已完成的三部曲，以及几部其他作品。

You have two other finished trilogies, several other works.

嗯。

Yeah.

你觉得我们应该从你的其他作品中接着读哪一本？

What do you think we should we should read next for the back catalog?

哦，我不知道。

Oh, I don't know.

每本书都像是披着不同类型的外衣的奇幻作品。

Each book is sort of like fantasy dressed up as a different genre.

所以，所有《城市》系列的书本质上都是间谍故事。

So all of the city's books are a spy story basically.

好的。

Okay.

但神灵和魔法就像是核武器一样，你需要去掌控或使用它们。

But with gods and like magic as the nuclear like weapons that you're looking to like secure or use.

而《创始人三部曲》的所有内容都是披着奇幻外衣的赛博朋克。

And all the Founders Trilogy stuff is cyberpunk dressed up as, like, fantasy.

它从完全的科技城市，演变为使用赛博朋克工具的后末日战争。

And it goes from the full, like, you know, the tech city to, you know, post apocalyptic warfare with cyberpunk tools.

有意思。

Interesting.

好的。

Okay.

我们确实是赛博朋克的忠实粉丝，但我也很喜欢间谍小说。

Well, that's we're certainly big cyberpunk fans, but I really like a spy novel too.

所以，看来我们有不少书要读了。

So anyway, sounds like we've got some reading to do.

是的。

Yeah.