比无聊更精彩：与丹佛斯Vic Marinich一起学习热交换器101

这绝对比你舒适冷却时的温度要高。

It's definitely higher than what you have on comfort cooling.

我我想说，是的。

I I wanna say, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

可能是75降到68左右，在工艺侧大概是这样。

75 driven down to 68 or something like that maybe on on the process side.

所以关于数据中心，我认为有几件事需要注意。

So, so a few things, I think, on the data centers.

首先，你肯定不想让冷水机的蒸发器管线直接接入数据中心。

So first, right, you don't wanna run your chiller evaporator line directly into the the data center.

对吧？

Right?

因为你知道，考虑到清洁度等各种因素，我猜想进入的管道必须符合标准——据我所知数据中心内部都是不锈钢这类材质。

Because, you know, with all the cleanliness and everything, I imagine, right, that that piping coming in is gonna be, you know, everything I know inside the data center, it's stainless steel and all that kind of stuff.

对吧？

Right?

所以我明白了。

So I see.

你们想要一个现成的，如果有这种东西的话，一个冷水机组，对吧，然后把它与数据中心所谓的白空间——内部洁净区域隔离开来

You want you wanna have a off the shelf, if there is such a thing, a a chiller, right, and then isolate it from the the data center where what they call the white space, the clean space inside

白空间是一个专用回路，通过热交换器连接到冷水机组，而冷水机组如果是水冷的，则通过另一个热交换器连接到冷却塔。

the white space is a dedicated loop with a heat exchanger that goes out to the chiller, and then the chiller has a heat exchanger if it's water cooled that goes out to the cooling tower.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yep.

没错。

Yep.

而且在那里的白空间里，我们看到市场要求使用钎焊式热交换器。

And and so and then the white space in there, we're seeing the market is demanding a brazed heat exchanger.

对吧？

Right?

所以完全没有泄漏的机会。

So no no opportunities for leaks.

我是说，当然，任何东西都有可能泄漏，但相比垫片式的。

I mean, mean, of course, everything has an opportunity for leak, but compared to a gasketed.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们想要钎焊式热交换器。

So they want a brazed heat exchanger.

所以他们需要在这些所谓的CDUs中使用密封式热交换器，对吧？

So a hermetic heat exchanger in what they call these, the CDUs, Right?

冷却分配单元基本上会将从冷水机到芯片的冷却回路与冷水回路隔离开来。

Cooling Distribution Units that will separate basically the chilled water loop from the chiller to the the cooling loop to the chip.

而且，没错，清洁度也超级关键。

And and, right, cleanliness is is super critical too.

对吧？

Right?

因为芯片上的那些热交换器，你看，里面的通道非常非常细小。

Because those heat exchangers on the chips, right, I mean, it it's tiny tiny passages across those chips.

对吧？

Right?

所以如果有任何焊接残留物，或者你的40号管道开始有点弯曲，管道里积了各种碎屑，这些热交换器立刻就会被堵塞。

So if you have any, you you know, weld flag and you you you know, your sched 40 piping is starting to curl a little bit and getting all kinds of chunk in the line, and and you you will instantly plug those heat exchangers on the chip.

所以他们希望这些循环回路尽可能纯净干净，这就是为什么他们要用CDU来隔离。

So they want those loops, you you know, as as pure and clean as possible, and that's why they wanna isolate it with a with a CDU.

这样一来，热交换器就只是作为冷水循环和室内循环之间的隔离层。

And so then there, the heat exchanger just acts as a break, right, between your chiller loop and your indoor loop.

而且这种情况适用于所有热交换器。

And and and this is the case with all heat exchangers.

对吧？

Right?

那么问题就来了，你想要热交换器的效率达到多高？

The the question is then, how efficient do you want the heat exchanger?

对吧？

Right?

这实际上是在资本支出和运营支出之间做权衡。

And it's really a trade off between CapEx and OpEx.

对吧？

Right?

要知道，热交换器的效率是通过接近温度来衡量的。

You know, you measure, the heat exchanger efficiency in approach temperature.

对吧？

Right?

如果我想把水冷却到，比如说68度，相比用67.5度的水来冷却，用40度的水来做这件事要容易得多。

If I wanna cool water down to, let's say, 68 degrees, it's a lot easier to do that if I have, you know, I don't know, 40 degree water to do that as opposed to if I have 67 and a half degree water to do that.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

So Mhmm.

所以水温越高，温差就越接近。

So the the warmer the water gets, the closer that approach gets.

随着水温升高，我的冷却器工作量会减少，对吧，因为我不需要在那么低的温度下运行。

As the water gets warmer, my chiller has to work less, right, because I'm not running, at such a low of that.

这样我节省了运营成本，但需要一个能处理极小温差的换热器，而这会让换热器变得非常庞大。

So I'm saving operating expense, but then I need a heat exchanger to handle a super close temperature approach, and and that's gonna make that heat exchanger huge.

这实际上是一种指数级的关系。

And it's really an exponential relationship.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，如果温差在10度到9度或8度之间，你几乎察觉不到区别。

I mean, if you're at 10 to nine to eight degrees, you kinda don't even notice the difference.

但如果温差从4度降到3度再到2度，换热器的尺寸就会呈指数级增长。

But if you're down from four to three to two, right, degrees, you're gonna have an exponential growth in the size of the heat exchangers.

所以这取决于数据中心的所有者去找到那个合适的平衡点。

So it it's up to the the data center, owners to kinda find that good balance.

那个最佳点。

That sweet spot.

是的。

Yeah.

在冷却器的运营成本和CDU及其所有组件的初始投资之间。

Between the operating expense of the chiller and the first cost of the of the CDU and all the components.

所以你刚才提到热交换器。

So when you said heat exchanger.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Right.

所以你说的CapEx和OpEx，指的是资本成本和运营成本吗？

So when you said CapEx and OpEx, that's capital cost and operating cost?

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

抱歉。

Sorry.

是的。

Yeah.

是这个意思吗？

Is that what that is?

正确。

Right.

所以这是CDU的初始成本。

So it's the first cost of the CDU.

你们可以买一个超大型的热交换器，顺便说一句，你和保尔斯肯定会喜欢。

You could buy a mega big heat exchanger, which you and Pauls would love, by the way.

对吧？

Right?

但是，当然

But, of course

没错。

That's right.

你知道，买一个巨大的热交换器可能并不划算，虽然在运营方面能省下几块钱的制冷机运行能耗。

You you know, it but it may not make sense to buy a huge heat exchanger, and then you save a couple bucks of energy running the chiller on the operation side.

是啊。

Yeah.

而如果买个小点的热交换器，运行效率会稍好些，保持较低的设备温度，但又不至于影响性能。

Whereas you buy a smaller heat exchanger and then you're, you you know, running a little bit better, you know, lower of app temps, but not so much that you're impacting.

所以你们得做个分析权衡。

So you kinda have to do the analysis.

这就是为什么数据中心希望运行温度越来越高，这样你就能在更高温度下运行，同时还能配备一个成本合理的换热器。

And that's why, right, they want the the data centers to run at higher and higher temps, then you can run those higher and higher temp and still have a heat exchanger that meets, right, as a decent cost.

听起来选择离心式冷水机是因为你把筒体做得更大，效率会稍高一些，但随后就会遇到收益递减点，为了那额外的0.1%效率，需要付出巨额成本。

It sounds like selecting centrifugal chillers because you make the barrels bigger, it's a little more efficient, but then you get to that point of diminishing returns where it's like to get that extra, you know, point 1% costs an enormous amount of money.

这不值得。

It's not worth it.

而且压降还会更高。

And then the pressure drops higher.

那泵还有什么用呢？

Then what's the use of the pumps?

他们懂这个道理吧？

Then they you know?

所以这就像连锁反应。

So it's like has this ripple effect.

所以这是我们经常听到的那种标准答案。

So there's it's one of those answers that we hear all the time.

你知道，最佳尺寸是什么？

You know, what's the best size?

这取决于，对吧。

It depends on Right.

对。

Right.

你知道，有大量变量需要考虑，包括你的公用事业成本、可用电力等等，我确定。

You know, a ton of variables, including your utility costs and how much power is available and things like that, I'm sure.

所以

So

对。

Right.

而且是谁在购买？

And who's buying it?

对吧？

Right?

我是说，是的。

I mean Yeah.

如果你负责初始成本但不支付水电费，对吧，也许你会更倾向于控制初始投入。

If you're if you're responsible for the first cost, but you're not paying the utility bills, right, maybe you're Right.

对降低初始成本会更感兴趣一些。

A little more interested in reducing the first cost.

但如果你是业主，你会希望降低运营成本，可能愿意前期多投入一些。

But if you're the if you're the owner, you wanna keep your operating costs down, maybe pay a little bit more upfront.

所以，是的，每个人看问题的角度都略有不同，对吧，他们看待这个问题的视角各不相同。

So, yeah, every everybody's got little different glasses, right, in in how they're gonna see that picture.

没错。

Yep.

你还提到了垫片密封与钎焊的区别。

And you mentioned gasketed versus brazed.

是的。

Yep.

你想深入探讨这两种类型吗？

Do you wanna delve into those two?

因为我认为大多数工程师，你知道，我们的听众中可能有完全的新手。

Because I think most of the engineer you know, we have folks listen to this who are maybe brand new.

也有一些经验丰富的人，谈谈它们的区别、适用场景、成本差异等等。

We have some that have been doing it for a while and talk about the differences, when you would see one versus the other, the difference of cost, etcetera.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以它们都是板式换热器。

So so they're both plate type heat exchangers.

对吧？

Right?

我想大家可能都见过这些。

And I think everybody's probably seen those.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

它是矩形板，每个角落都有端口让水流通过。

It's rectangular plate with with ports in each, in each corner for the water to flow through.

然后你会有交替的通道，一个通道充满一种流体，另一个通道充满你的次生流体。

And then you have alternate channels filled with one fluid and then the other channels filled with your secondary fluid.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

So Mhmm.

所以你是在做一个板式三明治。

So you're making a a plate sandwich.

现在你需要把这些板子组合起来并且不能泄漏，对吧，要处理这两种流体。

Now you have to get those plates together and not leak, right, with those two fluids.

所以一种方法是用来实现这一点的是使用垫片。

So one way to do that is with gaskets.

你拿这些板子，每块板上放一个橡胶垫片，然后在两个框架之间做成这种夹层结构。

So you take the plates, you put a rubber gasket on on each plate, and then you make this plate sandwich between two frames.

垫片的设计会引导水流交替通过两侧的板子，从而实现热交换。

And the gaskets are structured such that it'll drive the water to flow down alternating plates right on on either side so you get the heat transfer.

这样做的好处之一是它们便于维护。

The upside of that is you one, they're serviceable.

比如，如果流经的是哈德逊河的水，你可能需要定期清洁，这时可以拧开螺栓拆解清洗，更换垫片。

So if you do have, for example, Hudson River water that that's running through there, you might need to clean them every once in a while, and you can unbolt them and take them apart and clean them and change gaskets.

如果内部发生泄漏，也能进行修补等操作。

And if there is a leak inside, repair the leak and do all that kind of stuff.

这类系统可以做得很大，因为你只需把它们装进框架，就像用一个大台钳把它们压紧，就能实现很高的处理能力。

You can go very big on on those systems because, right, you're just putting them, into a frame, and basically a big vice and and squeezing them together so you can get really high capacities.

缺点可能是压力限制问题。

The downside is probably pressure limitations.

对吧？

Right?

因为你确实需要一个巨大的密封垫来维持内部压力。

Because you do have a huge gasket that that's, keeping the pressure in there.

所以如果你想承受超高压力，可能会面临密封垫爆裂的风险。

So if you wanna go super high pressure, you may risk, you know, blowing out the gasket.

其次，从材料角度来看，许多弹性体可能不适用于油类或腐蚀性物质。

And and secondly, from a, materials standpoint, right, a lot of elastomers, right, are they they aren't good maybe with oils or they aren't good with corrosive materials or whatever.

因此，你可能会在处理流经系统的流体时遇到挑战。

So it could be that you've got challenges with the with the fluids that you've got running through there.

另一方面，钎焊式换热器也是由多层堆叠的板片组成。

The brazed, on the other hand, it's the same thing, a bunch of plates all stacked together.

但在每层板片之间，你会放置一片超薄的铜箔。

But in between each plate, what you do is you put a super thin copper foil.

现在这些板片本身的厚度大约在0.3毫米量级。

And now the plates themselves are on the order of magnitude 0.3 millimeter thick.

所以这些板片非常非常薄。

So super super thin plates.

而箔片本身也确实就是一层箔，你把它夹在中间。

And The foil itself is also is is literally a foil, and you put them in in, in between.

而且越薄越有助于热传导。

And the thinner the thinness of it helps with the heat transfer.

对吧？

Right?

你不想要太厚的，没错。

You don't want a thick Exactly.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

正是。

Exactly.

对吧？

Right?

你想要

You you wanted

在腐蚀性和厚度之间需要权衡吗？还是每次都尽可能做到最薄？

Is there a trade off between, like, corrosiveness and thinness, or do you make it as thin as possible every time?

理论上来说，确实如此。

I mean, in theory, right, sure.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我是说，但如果你比较0.3毫米和0.4毫米，如果有腐蚀的话，很快就会...明白了。

I I mean, but if you're talking point three versus point four millimeter, if if there's corrosion, you're gonna Got it.

很快就会穿透。

Go through that pretty quick.

对吧？

Right?

关键其实在于你所需的压力。

It's really about the pressure that you need.

对吧？

Right?

所以关键在于获得所需的压力，比如在454B系统中，若需加压至710psi，就必须确保使用能承受该压力的适当厚度板材。

So it's getting the the pressure you need, let's say, for, right, four five four b system and you wanna pressure it at 710 psi, then you need to make sure you have the right thickness plates that can withstand the pressure.

不过确实。

But yeah.

当你制造钎焊式热交换器时，需先铺设不锈钢层，再覆铜箔，如此交替叠加不锈钢与铜层。

So when when you make that brazed heat exchanger, you you put stainless steel, then the copper foil, stainless and copper, and so on.

将其压紧压实后放入钎焊炉中。

Press it in a a compact it together, and you put it in a brazing furnace.

其工作原理是抽真空后，将炉内温度升至铜的熔点以上。

So the So it pull so what it does is it pulls a vacuum, and then it raises the temperature inside the furnace to above the melting point of copper.

对吧？

Right?

这过程其实更像是玄学而非科学——想象一下要让这个庞然大物整体始终保持几乎相同的温度。

And it's a, it's really a lot more black magic than, science, I think, because you've got you can imagine this big mass, and you need to have the entire mass at the pretty much the same temperature the whole time.

对吧？

Right?

你肯定不希望换热器边缘的铜已经开始熔化时，中心部位的铜还保持固态，因为这样就无法形成良好的毛细效应，让铜迁移到所有接触点。

You don't want the copper right around the periphery to already be melting when you still have it in its solid state in the middle of the heat exchanger because then you don't get, you know, a good capillary effect of of having the copper migrate to all the contact points.

所以温度必须同步上升。

So it really needs to go up at the same temperature.

铜和不锈钢的熔点相差不大，所以也不能为了熔化铜而把温度骤升过高，否则不锈钢也会熔化，那就变成一坨废铁了。

And copper and stainless aren't that different in their melting points, So you also can't just ram it up super hot, right, to to get the copper to melt, and you also get your steel to melt, and then, I don't know, you have a big anchor.

嗯。

So Mhmm.

你得逐步升温，稳定一下，再升温，再稳定。

You you kinda have to bring it up through temperature, stabilize it, bring it up, stabilize it.

对吧？

Right?

让它达到所需温度后，再降温至工作温度。

Get it to the temperature it needs, bring it back down to temp.

所以那大概是800摄氏度。

And so that's, like, 800 c.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，这是个超高的温度。

I mean, it's a super high temperature.

我们要超过铜的熔点。

We're going above the melting point of copper.

然后冷却下来，整个过程大概要花一整天。

And then cooling it down, the whole process is, you you know, a day long.

一旦铜再次凝固，现在你就得到了所有这些内部通过钎焊连接、带有内置通道的金属板。

And then the once the copper solidifies again, now you've got all these plates that are now, brazed together internally with with all those channels, built into them.

有意思。

Interesting.

我原本想象的是，像一个人拿着钎焊枪逐个处理——那样会非常耗时。

I was envisioning, like, a guy with a brazing torch going through all the that would be very time consuming.

在佛罗里达州的阁楼里。

In an attic in Florida.

没错。

Exactly.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道，完成所有这些铜焊工作。

Know, doing all this brazing.

对。

Yeah.

一切又回到了阁楼。

It all goes back to the attic.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

对啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我是说，至少对我这样的技术宅来说超级有趣。

It's I mean, it is super interesting for for geeks like me anyway.

比如，当你看到烤箱温度曲线时，并不是简单地把烤箱调到450度，扔进鸡肉就完事了。

Like, mean, when you see the chart of the oven temps, it's not, you you know, like you set your oven to, you you know, four fifty, throw in your whatever chicken and and let it go.

这是个逐步升温又逐步降温的过程，确保不会把钢材熔化。

It it it's it's a stepwise approach up, a stepwise approach down to make sure you're not melting the steam, steel.

你要熔化的是所有铜料。

You are melting all the copper.

你要让所有材料充分融合。

You're getting everything to settle.

所以实际上，将这些材料组装在一起背后有很多科学原理。

So it's actually, a lot of science, behind how to brace that stuff together.

而这个再加上烤箱本身的尺寸，就限制了你能获得多大的热交换器。

And and that plus the size of the ovens themselves is what limits how big a heat exchanger you can get.

对吧？

Right?

你不可能用一个超大型的烤箱来处理那些带有12英寸端口之类的东西。

You just, you know, can't have a mega big braising oven to to do something that's got, you know, 12 inch ports or something like that on there.

所以你既受限于烤箱，又从质量角度受限于能否在热交换器上获得良好一致的钎焊效果。

So you're limited with the oven and then with your ability from a quality standpoint to get a good consistent braze in the heat exchanger.

这些是在哪里制造的？你参与过的最大项目是哪些？

And where where are these made, and what are the biggest ones you've been involved in?

目前是由丹佛斯制造的。

So they're made, Danfoss right now.

我们在中国生产它们。

We make them in China.

我们在欧洲生产它们。

We make them in Europe.

目前最大的那些，我想，这很难说。

The biggest ones right now, I guess, it's hard to say.

我不知道。

I I don't know.

平方英尺左右的大小。

Square feet or something like that.

但大约需要300吨的操作量，适用于类似四五四B系统。

But with about 300 ton of operators for, like, a four five four b system.

对吧？

Right?

300吨的操作量通过一个冷凝器。

300 ton of operator through a ton condenser.

那大概就像冷水机组？

And that's about Very like a chiller?

需求。

Needs.

是的。

Yes.

冷水机？

A chiller?

没错。

Exactly.

好的。

Okay.

那么我们会有对吧？

And and so we would have right?

通常你会配备两个制冷回路，比如，每个回路有三台50吨的压缩机，然后组成两个这样的回路。

You have typically two refrigerant circuits, like, you you you know, three compressors at at 50 tons each and then two circuits of those.

所以两个250吨的回路供给一个热交换器，就能获得300吨的制冷量。

So 250 tons circuits feeding one one heat exchanger, get 300 ton of, of cooling out of it.

而且它们再次强调，你可以根据需求来设计。

And they're again, you can design them for whatever you want.

对吧？

Right?

大多数情况下，钎焊式换热器是针对高密度制冷剂优化的，因为它们的优势在于板片间距可以做得非常小。

For the most part, the brazed are optimized for the higher density refrigerants because where they're really good is having, you know, super small spacing between the plates.

当你使用高密度制冷剂时，这正是你需要的流动特性。

And when you got a good high density refrigerant, that's what you want to drive the refrigerant through there.

比如像R1234ze这类低密度制冷剂，或者R1336mzz这类，它们的密度要低得多，所以需要更大的板间距。

When you're talking like, you know, one, two, three, four z e and and some of those were low density ones, one three three m z z or one three three six m z z, and those those are much lower density, so you need more space between the plates.

当然你也可以设计钎焊板式来适应，但我觉得壳管式在这方面天然就有优势，因为它们的结构更...开放，这很重要。

And, of course, you can design a a brace plate to do that, but shell and tubes, I think, inherently have a a have an advantage, right, from from their existing design because they're a bit more, let's say, wide open, right, because it's important.

这是合理的。

And it makes sense.

对吧？

Right?

当你观察螺杆式和离心式冷水机组时，它们大多配备有大型的冷水机组束。

When you look at at screw and centrifugal chillers, those mostly have those big chiller bundles on them.

对吧？

Right?

这些壳管式热交换器使用的是低密度制冷剂，比如涡旋式冷水机组。

The shell and tube heat exchangers, and they're using those lower density refrigerants, scroll chillers.

对吧？

Right?

它们采用高密度气体，并使用钎焊板式换热器。

They have the higher density gases, and they're using brace plates.

关于这点我有个非常重要的问题。

And I have a very important question about that.

嗯。

Yeah.

这么说你在这个行业已经很久了。

So you've been around a while.

我在这一行已经很久了。

I've been around a while.

制冷剂名称什么时候变得这么复杂的？

When did refrigerant names become so complex?

以前很简单，比如R11

It used to be, like, r 11

老式经典

Good old

R12，然后是123。

r 12, and then one twenty three.

现在你得记住，大概五个数字和三个字母。

Now it's you gotta remember, like, five numbers and three letters.

而且上面还有字母标识。

And letters on top of it all.

对吧？

Right?

是啊。

Yeah.

有时候还带括号。

And sometimes they're in brackets.

对吧？

Right?

MZZ括号大写E。

M z z bracket capital e.

对吧？

Right?

哦，天哪。

Oh, man.

我们需要给它们做些更好的营销。

We need some better marketing on them.

氟利昂。

Freon.

干脆全叫氟利昂算了。

Just call it all Freon.

我不知道。

I don't know.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

老一辈都这么干。

That's what the old timers do.

不管制冷剂是什么。

It doesn't matter what the refrigerant is.

他们就直接叫它氟利昂。

They just call it Freon.

反正都是氟利昂气体。

It's it's all Freon gas.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

对。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

关于应用场景，我们刚才简单聊到了数据中心、河流冷却系统和冷水机组。

So applications, we talked a little bit about data centers, river cooling, chillers.

所以你们是为大型冷水机组制造商提供热交换器的，因为他们不想自己生产热交换器。

So you provide the heat exchangers, like, to the big chiller manufacturer because they don't wanna make heat exchangers.

这算是你们的专业领域。

That's kind of a specialty thing.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们拿到后，会将其安装到他们的风冷式冷水机、水冷式冷水机或其他设备中。嗯。

So they take that, and they put it in their their air cooled chiller, water cooled chiller, or whatever Mhmm.

视具体情况而定。

The case may be.

你还看到哪些其他类型的应用场景？

What other type of applications do you see?

你知道的，我们提到过的自然冷却。

You know, free cooling, we mentioned that.

这是换热器非常普遍的应用方式。

That's a really popular application for heat exchangers.

是的。

Yeah.

而且那包括空气侧和水侧的自然冷却。

And that's, air side and water side free cooling.

对吧？

Right?

你

You

你可以做到。

you can do.

对吧？

Right?

所以，我们也看到很多绝热材料。

So, and we see a lot of adiabatic stuff too.

对吧？

Right?

所以这是水冷。

So it's water cooling.

至于免费冷却，如果是在水侧讨论，热交换器的设计可能不会有太大差异，因为你仍然有水流过一侧，这没问题。

And so for free cooling, if you're talking on the water side, probably not that big a difference in the, in the design, of the heat exchanger because you've still got the the water flow through the one side and and it's alright.

当我们现在讨论空气侧自由冷却时，对吧，然后让水流经热交换器，那么你可能需要对管道的直径进行一些调整，主要是为了解决水流或微通道上的压降问题。

When we talk now air side free cooling, right, and then you're running water through the heat exchanger, then then you need to do some, changes in the diameter of the piping potentially just to get over pressure drop issues on the water flow, or or on the micro channel.

对吧？

Right?

所以从外部看，它可能看起来是一样的，你知道，对于房主或建筑业主来说肯定是这样。

So there there's some from the outside, it probably looks the same, you know, for sure to to, you know, the homeowner or the building owner.

对吧？

Right?

也许对于那些喜欢研究这类东西的技术人员来说，我们会注意到管径的增加。

Maybe for first peaks who like looking at that kind of stuff, we would notice Yep.

这类应用中管径的增加。

A a increase in tube diameters for for that kind of stuff.

所以这些就是，是的。

So those are, yeah.

我们现在看到更多的是，并且在支架类型中更常见的是经济化设计。

We see a lot more of and what we're seeing more of with the with the brace type now is, economizing.

对吧？

Right?

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

实际上，实现节能有两种不同的方式。

Really, there's two different ways to do economizing.

我们常见的大型冷水机组，你知道的，就是那种带冷水机筒的设计，有个储存制冷剂的罐体，直接从那里进行节能处理。

What we're used to seeing with the real big chillers, right, is the the the, you know, is is having the, the chiller barrel, right, having a, a tank where you're just dumping the refrigerant and and you're doing economizing off of that.

虽然能实现零度趋近很理想，但里面需要储存大量制冷剂。

And it's nice to get a zero degree approach, but you've got a big, big, volume of refrigerant in there.

也可以采用制冷剂侧节能方案，现在这些带蒸汽喷射或液体喷射功能的压缩机，通过配置节能回路，利用换热器就能实现——直接从冷凝器引出管路。

You can also do refrigerant side economizing, right, with all these compressors now that are having a vapor injection or liquid injection poured on them and you need to do an economizing loop, you can use a heat exchanger, right, and just run from your condenser.

对吗？

Right?

让一侧流经换热器，从冷凝器分出一部分气体通过换热器另一侧蒸发，冷却主流气体，再将这部分半蒸发的气体重新注入压缩机。

Run one side through the heat exchanger, take a little bit of that gas off the condenser and put it through the other side of the heat exchanger to evaporate, cool down the one side, and then put that partially evaporated gas back into the, into the compressor.

进入压缩机。

Into the compressor.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Right.

所以我们看到很多节能措施。

So we're seeing a lot of economizing.

当你想要扩大运行范围时就会看到这种情况，现在政府推出了寒冷气候热泵挑战计划，他们希望热泵能在越来越低的温度环境中工作。

You see that when you want to increase the operating envelope and and now with, you know, government has this cold climate heat pump challenge, right, where they wanna drop the ability for for these heat pumps to work in lower and lower ambiance.

对吧？

Right?

这类似于寻求扩大运行范围。

That's kind of the same as looking to up increase the operating envelope.

因此现在在轻商业甚至住宅市场，对节能措施的需求很大，以尽可能降低最低工作温度。

And so a lot of there's a lot of need now for economizing coming out into the, light commercial and even residential markets to to get the the the minimum temperatures as low as possible minimum temperatures as low as possible.

是的。

Yeah.

这方面有很大的推动力。

There's a big push for that.

你提到了微通道。

And you you mentioned microchannel.

你们生产微通道盘管吗？

Do you all you all make microchannel coils?

你们

And are you

我们生产。

We do.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你们是唯一生产微通道盘管的厂家吗？

Do you do you are you the only maker of microchannel coils?

那是一项公开专利吗，还是怎么运作的？

Is that an open patent, or how does that work?

不，不是。

That no.

当然，我们不是唯一的制造商。

For sure, we're not the only manufacturer.

好的。

Okay.

我明白了。

And for the I gotcha.

是的。

Yeah.

反正那可能也不是件好事。

That probably wouldn't be a good thing anyway.

不过，不是的。

But, no.

确实存在多家制造商在生产

There there are, multiple ones, manufacturing.

是的

Yeah.

至少在北美地区，我认为墨西哥是这些产品的主要制造地

At least within North America, I think Mexico is where most of the manufacturing is being done on those.

而且我们看到这些产品又在进行更换

And we see those again replacing.

现在你看到很多这种技术主要应用在冷凝器上。

You see a lot of them now on on condensers mostly.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

对于热泵和可逆系统来说，在冷凝和散热方面还存在一些挑战，以及其他一些技术问题。

For heat pumps and reversible, there there's a bit of a challenge just on on condensation and getting rid of it and and some other technical stuff.

所以我们目前还没看到它们在热泵领域有大量应用。

So we don't see them quite yet taking a whole lot in in heat pumps.

但对于单纯的制冷系统，嗯。

But for straight cooling Mhmm.

作为冷凝器或蒸发器运行时，它们正变得相当流行。

Running as the condenser or the evaporator, they're getting quite popular.

我身后有一台除湿机。

I've got a dehumidifier behind me.

是的。

Yep.

有点难看清，这是一台微型设备，Santa Fe公司寄给我作为演示用，非常棒，因为我可以展示制冷系统的不同部件，而且它是扁平设计，可以嵌在墙里。

It's a little hard to see, and it's got a micro someone Santa Fe sent it to me as a to use it as a demo, which is really nice because I could show, you know, different parts of a refrigeration system, and it's a flat one that fits in the wall.

所以它非常适合教学。

So it's perfect for, teaching.

没错。

Yeah.

确实很不错。

It's really nice.

而且它在冷凝器侧采用了微通道盘管。

And it's got a microchannel coil on the on the on the condenser side.

在冷凝器侧吗？

On the condenser side?

是的。

Yep.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我是说，它超级轻。

I mean, it it's it's super light.

相比相同尺寸的管翅式，它的制冷剂滞留量少得多。

It's got, much less refrigerant holdup volume than, than the same, the same sized, tube and fin.

现在这些制冷剂价格飞涨，你知道，如果能减少，哪怕只是几盎司或几磅，都是件好事。

Now And with all these refrigerant pricing just going through the roof, right, you know, if you can get rid of a few ounces or pounds of refrigerant, that's a good thing.

现在当你考虑到，你知道的，2.90美元的价格时，肯定想要减少充注量。

And now as you look towards, you know, r $2.90, right, then you definitely wanna reduce the charge.

所以这也是一个巨大的推动力，我认为，无论是在蒸发器还是冷凝器上，无论是微通道、管翅式还是钎焊式。

So that's also a big a big push, I I think, on both evaporator condenser, whether it's microchannels, you know, pin and tube or brazed.

这是为了因成本考虑而最小化制冷剂充注量。

It it's minimizing refrigerant charge because of cost.

而且对于A2L和A3类制冷剂，充注量越低越好。

And and with a two l's and a three's, the the lower the charge, the better.

太棒了。

Excellent.

嗯，我想我们这里对热交换器做了很好的概述。

Well, I think we did a good heat exchangers kinda rundown here.

如果人们想了解更多，该怎么办？

What if how do people wanna learn more?

你们有一个很棒的网站。

You have a great website.

我刚才还在上面浏览。

I was on there earlier.

不错。

Nice.

谢谢。

Thanks.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

绝对是的。

Absolutely.

丹佛斯官网（danfoss.com）上有大量优质内容，我认为涵盖了各种应用场景和产品。

The danfoss,uh,.com website is we we've got a ton of good stuff, I think, around the the applications and the products Mhmm.

你可以在那里找到。

That you can find.

我们为热交换器提供了一个选型工具。

We we have a selection tool for our heat exchangers.

我们称之为Hex Selector，没错。

We call it Hex Selector, just like yeah.

Hexselector。

Hexselector.

对吧？

Right?

All1word.dotcom。

All1word.dotcom.

你可以下载我们的选型软件，试用一下，搞点破坏。

You can download our selection software, play around with it, break things.

对吧？

Right?

看看会发生什么。

See what happens.

试着打破几条热力学定律，对吧，然后产生一些能量，做任何你需要的事。

Try to break a couple of the, laws of thermodynamics, right, and and generate some energy, do whatever you need to.

这些都是免费的，每个人都可以自由使用。

That that's all free, and everybody can have license to it.

所以唯一的要求是，如果你要使用，请用公司邮箱注册，这样我们就能知道你是谁。

So the only thing, if you're gonna do that, register with your company email just so, yeah, kinda know who you are.

这很好。

That's good.

你们还有一些很不错的应用，我过去下载过用于制冷剂温度之类的工具，我用过。

And you've got some good apps there too I've downloaded in the past for refrigerant temperatures and stuff like that I've used.

是的。

So Yeah.

我们的制冷剂滑动条非常方便。

Our our, the refrigerant slider is super handy.

我很喜欢它。

I like it.

它也有一个权利。

It it also has a right.

它会告诉你所有制冷剂的成分，对吧，还有两个到p的，对吧，这样你就可以等待了。

It it tells you the the makeup of all the refrigerants, right, and the two to the p, right, from a so you can be wait.

那是什么来着，不管是什么？

What what was that that was in, whatever?

449A？

449A?

那是ZE，还是Y，你知道的，差不多都在那里。

Was that Z E, or was it Y you know, it's kinda all right there.

差不多就这样

Just kinda

我们还是回到R11和R12吧。

Let's go back to just R 11 and R 12.

这就对了。

There you go.

R就简单点吧。

R just make it simple.

嗯，那个，他们管它叫什么来着？

Well, that was, what what they call that?

R290的悖论。

The paradox of r two ninety.

对吧？

Right?

如果你要用R290，因为它是A3类制冷剂，必须确保系统超级超级密封，明白吗？但如果它完全不漏，为什么不用R22或R12之类的呢？

That if you're gonna go with r two ninety, right, because it's an a three, you have to make sure that system is super super tight and right knowing Well, but if it's super tight and has no leaks, why not use R 22 or R 12 or whatever else?

对吧？

Right?

如果不漏，其实用什么制冷剂都无所谓。

If it's not leaking, it doesn't matter anyway.

对吧？

Right?

所以这就是你在运用逻辑。

There So There you go using logic.

我是说，这就是一个合乎逻辑的论点。

I mean, there you go with a logical argument.

我刚给

I just did a presentation to

一个

a

大型房地产所有者团体做了报告，都是商业地产所有者。你知道，他们听说——运营这些大型商业建筑时会有很多事要处理——他们听说了关于易燃性之类的传言。

a big owner group of real estate owners, commercial real estate owners, because, you know, they hear you know, they got a lot of stuff going on when you're running these big commercial buildings, and they hear things about flammability, this this this.

所以我简单给他们介绍了当前的情况。

So I just kinda gave them a rundown of where we're at.

给在座的各位说明一下，R290就是丙烷，你知道的，这东西非常易燃。

And for those listening here, r two ninety is propane, which is, you know, which is really flammable.

至于A2L类制冷剂，它们也有一定可燃性。

You know, the a two l's are they're kinda flammable.

它们很难点燃，也很难保持燃烧，诸如此类。

They're hard to light, hard to keep lit, things like that.

但丙烷可是很危险的。

But propane is serious.

他们就像在说，当我们讨论EPA正在推动降低全球变暖潜能值时，大家都认为丙烷会是下一个目标，但我简直无法想象，鉴于我们之前处理那些几乎不易燃的A2L时所经历的，接下来会引发多大的争议。

And they're like, when we're talking about the EPA is talking about driving down the GWP, You know, everybody's thinking propane is next, but I can't even imagine, you know, what the fuss is gonna be over that given what we went through with the a two l's, which are barely playable.

所以，嗯，但答案当然是热交换器。

So Well, but the answer, of course, is heat exchangers.

因为我...

Because what I

当然是这个。

Of course it is.

会发生什么呢，我几乎可以确定，因为在上届政府时期确实举办过一些由政府资助的会议。

Will happen, I'm almost because, yeah, there there were, there were some government sponsored meetings in the previous administration.

我参加了在华盛顿特区的一个会议，还有马里兰大学的一个会议，讨论他们所谓的超低全球变暖潜能值制冷剂，这个话题我们以后可以详谈，如果你感兴趣的话。

I I attended one down in DC and then one at the University of Maryland talking about what they call ultra low GWP refrigerants, and we can have a whole talk on that later, if you want.

当然。

Sure.

而且，是的，推动是针对R290的。

And, yeah, the push was for r February.

有趣的是他们只称之为R290，因为丙烷听起来吓人，但R290不过是那些字母汤编号中的又一个罢了。

And it's funny because they only call it r two ninety because propane sounds scary, but r two ninety is just another one of those alphabet soup things that we have out there.

对吧？

Right?

就像把鲯鳅鱼叫作海豚鱼一样。

It's mahi mahi versus calling it dolphin.

就是那种情况。

It's the it's that kind of thing.

对吧？

Right?

但我认为，对于所有单体产品或住宅设备，想法大概是必须采用间接方式。

But but I think, right, with all the unitary products or even the residential stuff, you know, the the thought was kinda like, you're gonna have to go indirect.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，你不会装个五吨重的机组，里面充着那么多磅制冷剂，再把管线接到家里。

I mean, you're not gonna put a five ton unit with how many pounds of charge in it and then run the lines into your house.

所以基本上，你会在室外装个小型冷水机，可以这么说，

And, so basically, you do a mini chiller, if you will, outside, making

哦，那个有点像是...

Oh, that's kinda that's the

然后你在室内铺设一个水循环系统。

Then you run a a water loop inside.

对吧？

Right?

那怎么把这个水循环系统和另一个分开呢？

And how do you get the water loop separate from the other one?

用热交换器。

Heat exchangers.

明白吗？

See?

答案总是换热器，但你需要一个换热器来分隔回路。

The answer is always heat exchangers, but you need a heat exchanger to separate the loops.

存在各种各样的挑战。

There's all kinds of challenges.

哦，然后你还需要维护、补充水

Oh, and then you need maintenance, makeup water

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

空气分离器。

Air separators.

我是说，这很麻烦。

I mean, it's a pain.

但问题是，是HRI吗？

But there are, is it HRI?

现在正在组建一个工作组，从立法角度和技术角度来研究需要采取哪些措施。

There there's task force being set up to understand what it will take from a legislative standpoint and a technology standpoint.

我认为他们正在考察三个方面：一是住宅应用，二是商业应用，我想说的是第三点——制冷应用，要转向这些超低制冷剂。

And I think that they were looking one at residential, two at applied, and I wanna say three refrigeration applications to move to these ultra low refrigerants.

而这些正是问题的关键所在。

And and those are exactly the questions.

对吧？

Right?

什么才是合适的技术？

What's the right technology?

然后你还得考虑所有的损耗问题。

And then you have to get all the losses.

哦，天哪。

Oh my gosh.

是啊。

So yeah.

对。

Yeah.

希望他们那个工作组里有懂暖通的人。

I hope they have some HVAC people on that on that, task force.

嗯。

Yeah.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

肯定是这样。

For sure it is.

对。

Right.

肯定有一些，我是说，设备制造商肯定参与了。

For for sure there's there there's some, there there's, I mean, there's the equipment manufacturers.

还有，我想制冷剂制造商也被邀请了。

There's the, I think the refrigerant manufacturers were invited.

还有零部件供应商也被邀请了。

There there's, the the component suppliers were invited.

还有很多非政府组织和其他各方。

Lots of NGOs and everybody else too.

对吧？

Right?

不过确实。

But Yeah.

总会有人为正义而战的。

There'll there'll be people fighting the good fight.

别担心。

Don't worry.

是啊。

Yeah.

肯定会很有意思。

It'd be interesting for sure.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

好的。

Okay.

我们就到此为止吧，免得我继续发表政治言论，给公司和我们代表的人惹麻烦。

We'll leave it on that before I go on some political rant that'll get me in trouble with our company and the people we represent.

所以我唯一的不满就是，似乎在这些决策中没有足够的暖通空调专业人士参与，但也许他们确实参与了。

So My my my only rant is I it doesn't seem like there's enough HVAC people involved in these decisions, but maybe they are.

没人打电话来征求我的意见。

No one's calling me to ask me my

我的意见也是。

opinion too.

我不知道。

I don't know.

不过好吧。

But okay.

很好。

Great.

那么换热器101课程。

So heat exchangers one zero one.

那真是太棒了。

That was great.

你们有YouTube频道吗？

I do you have a do you guys have a YouTube channel?

我想你们有的。

I think you do.

我想我们有的。

I think we do.

是的。

Yeah.

我们的LinkedIn频道刚超过50万观众。

We've got the LinkedIn channel just past half a million viewers.

没错。

Yeah.

然后哦，哇。

And then Oh, wow.

还有YouTube频道。

YouTube channel as well.

是的。

Yep.

领英上，你们可以看到一些相关视频。

LinkedIn, so you guys see some videos on that.

Danfoss.com。

Danfoss.com.

当然。

Absolutely.

好的，Vic，谢谢你。

Well, Vic, thank you.

我们下次再约，多聊聊制冷剂或其他你想谈的话题。

Let's let's do this again and talk a little bit more about the refrigerants or whatever you wanna talk about.

随时联系我们，我们可以再安排一次。

So hit us back, and we'll we'll do this again.

我随时准备着。

I'm ready when you are.