本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
薯条、土豆饼、哥伦比亚的土豆泥。
French fries, tater tots, Colombian ahioca.
土豆到处都受人喜爱，但是
Potatoes are beloved everywhere, and yet
它们总是有点被贬低。
They're always kind of denigrated.
土豆被种族化的历史由来已久。
There's a long history of racializing potatoes.
土豆是怎么在全世界变成骂人的话的。
How the potato became an insult around the world.
在NPR应用或任何你收听播客的地方，收听NPR的Code Switch播客。
Listen to NPR's Code Switch podcast in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
这里是NPR的Planet Money。
This is Planet Money from NPR.
我和Ryan Hendrickson聊天时，他正坐在南加州的门廊上吃午饭。
When I talked to Ryan Hendrickson, he was sitting on a porch in Southern California on his lunch break.
风铃的声音真好听。
The wind chimes are such a nice touch.
我感觉自己好像放松下来了。
I feel like I'm, like, relaxing.
希望那不会影响录音效果。
Hope that doesn't mess up the audio.
在录音的时候？
On a leak?
对。
Yeah.
是吧？
Right?
瑞安今年37岁，是家里第一个上大学的人，到目前为止，他的职业生涯中已经参与了一些很酷的项目。
Ryan is 37, the first in his family to go to college, and he's gotten to work on some cool cool stuff in his career so far.
参与过几个不同的任务，比如我们发送探测器或航天器去其他地方的时候。
Working on a few different missions when we send like a rover or a space spacecraft to another place.
太好了。
Sweet.
像NASA那样的吗？
Like NASA?
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
NASA，那可是梦想啊。
NASA, the dream.
而且他干得非常出色。
And he was crushing it.
在那里待了十年，他升职了三次。
Ten years into his time there, he'd been promoted three times.
然后有个机会让我升到类似主管的职位。
And an opportunity came up for me to move into like a supervisor type of position.
但最后他们选了别人。
And, they ended up going with someone else for the role.
这倒也没什么。
Which okay.
没事。
Fine.
这种事常有。
That happens.
但Ryan挺失落的，他就去问领导，下次他该怎么做才能不一样。
But Ryan was bummed, and he asked the higher ups what he could do differently next time.
我得到的回复是，不用。
The response I got was, no.
你做得很好。
You're doing a great job.
继续做你现在做的事情，一切都会好起来的。
Just keep doing what you're doing, and it will work out.
我当时就想，我一直在这么做，但并没有用。
And I was just sort of like, that's what I've been doing and that didn't work.
所以……
So
Ryan 感到有点卡住了，好像他做的一切都是对的，该做的都做了，但就是升不上去。
Ryan was feeling a little stuck, like he was doing everything right, everything he should do, but he just couldn't move up anymore.
而且他忍不住一直想着，到底是谁抢了他的位置。
And he couldn't stop thinking about who got the job instead of him.
最后得到那个职位的人，在 NASA 已经待了大概四十到四十五年。
The person that ended up getting the role had been at NASA for somewhere around like forty, forty five years.
而且他们其实在二三十年前就做过同样的职位。
And they actually had this same position like twenty or thirty years ago.
他们申请的那个主管职位，之前就已经有人做过了？
And supervisor position that they were applying for, had already had?
对。
Yeah.
他们之前确实已经担任过这个职位。
They had already had it.
是的。
Yeah.
心里有点憋屈，火气也上来了。
Frustrations kinda boiled up a little bit.
你知道吗，到了那个地步，我争取的职位被一个早就过了退休年龄的人拿走了，而且他在二十年前就干过一模一样的职位。
You know, getting to a point where the role I was going for was filled by someone who was well into retirement age, but also had that exact same role, like, twenty years prior to that.
说实话，确实觉得不公平。
You know, definitely felt unfair.
对。
Yeah.
我们这是在说年龄的问题。
We're talking about age here.
咱们就直说吧，房间里的大象。
Just to name the 800 pound rover in the room.
你说那个抢了你工作的人，在NASA待了大概四十五年？
So you said that the the person who got the job over you had been at NASA forty five ish years.
对。
Yeah.
那他们大概66、67岁了吧？
So they're like 66, 67?
对。
Yeah.
我猜这个人也有博士学位。
I guess this person also did have their PhD as well.
哦。
Oh.
那他们大概75岁了吧？
So they're like seven maybe 75?
对。
Yeah.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
如果你表现得特别小心眼，那你当时心里是什么感觉？
If you're being like your most petty self, like what were you feeling?
是的。
Yeah.
那确实挺让人挫败的。
It was definitely really frustrating.
不过从技术层面来说，我确实没有博士学位。
But technically, I don't have my PhD right.
所以在那方面，他们肯定更有资格。
So on that front, definitely they were more qualified for sure.
我们确实联系过NASA。
We did reach out to NASA.
他们说他们一般不对人事问题发表评论。
They said they generally do not comment on personnel matters.
但确实，这个人明显更有资格。
But yeah, this person was obviously more qualified.
工作年限更长，有管理经验，还有博士学位，可能比瑞安做得还好。
More years on the job, had management experience, a PhD, was maybe even better than Ryan at doing the job.
对吧？
Okay?
而且可能还有很多其他合理的原因，让这个人想重新回到原来的工作岗位。
And there are probably also a bunch of other good reasons why this person wanted their old job back again.
是不是？
Right?
但瑞安说，他忍不住觉得这个员工抢走了他的机会。
But Ryan says he couldn't help but feel like this worker took an opportunity from him.
比如，他们年轻的时候已经有过做这份工作的机会了。
Like, they already had the chance to do this job when they were younger.
布莱恩觉得现在轮到他了，该他上了。
And Brian felt like it was his time now, his turn.
他感觉员工和雇主之间那种隐性的默契——努力工作就能升职加薪——对他来说已经不灵了。
He was feeling like this implicit agreement between employee and employer that if you work hard, you can move up in pay and position wasn't happening for him anymore.
于是瑞恩去了任何一个快四十岁的千禧一代都会去寻求共鸣的地方——Reddit。
And Ryan went where any late thirties millennial would go to commiserate, Reddit.
不知怎么的，我去了千禧一代的论坛，发了个帖子。
For some reason, I went onto the millennial subreddit and made a post.
大概就是说，有没有人注意到公司里的老同事不肯退休，让大家升职变得特别难？
Basically said, has anyone else been noticing senior colleagues at work refusing to retire and making it much harder to move up the ladder?
哦。
Oh.
而且外面还有好几个类似的帖子，比如这个。
And there are several similar posts out there, like this one.
婴儿潮一代不肯退休，害得我们其他人没机会。
Boomers won't retire, and it's screwing the rest of us.
我就是这么说的。
There I said it.
挺吸引眼球的。
Attention grabbing.
对。
Yeah.
那是B·J·斯瓦米，一位科技行业的工程师，写了那个精彩的Reddit帖子。
That's b j Swamy, an engineer in tech who wrote that colorful Reddit post.
你得到了什么样的反应？
What kind of reaction did you get?
哦，Reddit上简直炸开了锅。
Oh, Reddit just lost its mind.
比如，我收到了，天哪，各种不同的反应。
Like, I got, oh my goodness, all varied reactions.
年轻同事们的观点是，他们努力工作，有抱负，想有所发展，但结果却被卡住了。
The perspective of the younger colleagues was they work hard, they're ambitious, they wanna go places, but then they're stuck.
然后还有人说，我现在就想退休，但退不起，我都七十多岁了。
And then there's others that are saying, I would retire now, but I can't afford to retire, and I'm in my seventies.
BJ 写到他老板71岁了，一直说下一年就退休。
BJ had written that his boss was 71 and kept saying he'd retire next year.
我知道他说过，老板有些健康问题，家里还得还医疗账单。
I know he said he had some health reasons, and the family had to pay off medical bills.
我理解他的难处，但我也挺郁闷的，因为我就卡在这个位置上，升不上去，因为你知道，上面已经有人占着位置不退，这真的很难。
And I felt his pain, but it was also frustrating from my end because, like, I'm stuck in this position because I can't go to the next level because I'm you know, there's already people there that are not retiring, and it's it's just hard.
对维贾伊来说，他觉得自己的处境已经很明显了。
And for Vijay, it feels like the writing is already on the wall for him.
你知道，我们一直被教育要存钱退休。
You know, we're we're told to save for retirement constantly.
把钱放进401k，把罗斯IRA存满。
You know, put money in the four zero one k and max your Roth IRA.
复利。
Compound interest.
好的。
Okay.
挺好的。
Cool.
我倒是很想，但升不上去，收入也涨不了，根本存不下什么钱。
I would love to, but I can't get promoted, so I can't make more money, and I barely save anything.
感觉我到了七十岁可能还是老样子，干着同样的活儿。到时候肯定会有同龄人觉得，‘我本该坐在那个位置上，却被你给卡住了’。
And it's almost like I know I'm gonna probably be the same person in my seventies doing the same thing, and then some guy or girl my age is gonna be like, I should be in that position, but I'm stuck here because of you.
你会不会成为那个让年轻员工抱怨的70岁老人？
You're gonna be the 70 year old that some younger workers complaining about?
对，确实是这样。
Oh, yeah.
我觉得这就是生活的讽刺之处。
I I feel like I'm that's the irony of life.
是因为你想工作到70岁，还是你觉得不得不这么做？
Because you want to work until you're 70 or because you think you're going to have to?
说实话，可能不得不这样。
Probably have to, in all fairness.
好吧。
Alright.
尽管BJ的标题很挑衅，但他的帖子其实挺有深度的，捕捉到了很多职场早期和中期员工的感受。
Despite BJ's provocative headline, his post is actually pretty thoughtful, and it captures this feeling that many early and mid career workers are having.
如果年长员工退休不起，那是一种情况。
When older workers cannot afford to retire, that's one thing.
如果他们能退休却不想退，那就更棘手了。
When they can and just don't want to, that's trickier.
这就是个循环，挺糟糕的，说实话我也不知道解决办法是什么。
It's just a cycle, and it sucks, and I don't know what the solution is, honestly.
我们听说了一个可能的解决办法。
We heard about a potential solution.
大家好，欢迎收听《金钱星球》。
Hello, and welcome to Planet Money.
我是莎拉·冈萨雷斯。
I'm Sarah Gonzalez.
美国的劳动力中，有1100万65岁以上的人，而在职场上谈论年龄是个复杂的话题。
There are 11,000,000 people over age 65 in The US work force, and age in the workplace is a complicated thing to talk about.
事实上，有时候提起年龄甚至是违法的。
In fact, sometimes it's illegal to bring up.
但退休年龄越来越晚的趋势，是二十一世纪劳动力市场最重要的发展之一。
But the trend toward later and later retirement is one of the most important labor market developments of the twenty first century.
所以我们要来谈谈这个话题。
So we're gonna talk about it.
今天节目里，我们要讨论人们应该工作多久，推迟退休对谁有利，对谁不利，还会探讨一个老想法，就是强制人们退休。
Today on the show, a debate over how long people should work, who wins when we delay retirement, who doesn't, and we consider an old idea to force people to retire.
另外，我们还要讲讲为什么年长的员工想工作更久，甚至可能应该工作更久。
Plus, the case for why older workers want to and maybe even should work even longer.
请注意。
Attention.
这里是Shortwave的公益广告，NPR的科学播客。
A PSA from Shortwave, NPR's science podcast.
你需要多关注一下你的便便。
You need to be paying more attention to your poop.
我确实认为，我们对谈论排便这件事的深深偏见，和这些早发性结直肠癌病例有关。
I really do think that this deep stigma we have about talking about pooping is tied to these early onset colorectal cancer cases.
在Shortwave节目中，我们会告诉你该注意什么，以及如何解读藏在便便里的秘密信息。
What to watch out for and how to decode the secret messages hidden in your poop on Shortwave.
请在NPR应用或任何你收听播客的地方收听。
Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
一个历史上不受欢迎的总统，将如何应对可能让他权力大减的中期选举季？
How will a historically unpopular president navigate a midterm election season that may leave him with a lot less power?
通过《特朗普任期》播客，随时了解最新新闻，这个播客用短小集数聚焦单一故事，为你精选NPR对特朗普总统的报道。
Stay caught up on the latest news with Trump's terms, the podcast where we curate NPR's coverage of president Trump in short episodes focused on a single story.
请在NPR应用或任何你收听播客的地方关注《特朗普任期》。
Follow Trump's terms on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
好的。
Alright.
你想见见那个可能解决我们退休问题的人吗？
You wanna meet the person with the potential solution for our retirement problem.
如果你觉得这是个问题，他就在这里。
If you think that it is a problem, here he is.
我是山姆。
I'm Sam.
我在大学教书，也教法律，很高兴能和你聊聊。
I teach college and I teach law, and I'm excited to chat.
说自己在大学教书，这是我听过最轻松的说法，其实他是耶鲁的教授。
I teach college is the chillest way I've heard someone say that they're a professor at Yale.
嗯，我一直喜欢那些自称老师的教授。
Well, I always like professors who said they're teachers.
塞缪尔·莫恩。
Samuel Moyn.
山姆教历史和法学，刚写了一本书，叫《美国的老人统治》。
Sam teaches history and law and has just written a book called Gerontocracy in America.
这本书讲的是，按照他的说法，一些美国老年人正在“囤积权力、财富、住房和工作”。
It's about how, according to him, some older Americans are, quote, hoarding power and wealth and housing and jobs.
我们今天只聊工作这部分，因为山姆有个挺有争议的观点，说老年人留在工作岗位上的时间远远超过了他们应该待的时间。
Now we're just gonna talk about the jobs part because Sam has a pretty provocative take that older workers are staying in their jobs way longer than they should.
哦，绝对是的。
Oh, absolutely.
我觉得这在很多领域都很普遍。
I think it's very widespread across a lot of domains.
人们都受制于老年人，尤其是老年男性。
People are under the thumb of old people, old men, most commonly.
那这为什么是个问题呢？
And why is that a problem?
对。
Yeah.
最明显的一个问题就是对别人，尤其是对年轻人的不公或不义。
So one of the most glaring is injustice or unfairness towards other people, especially younger people.
我们稍后会讨论他的观点，但首先，过去人们根本不退休。
We're gonna get to his arguments in a bit, but first, it used to be that people didn't retire at all.
对吧？
Right?
在人类历史的大部分时间里，你一直工作到死在农场，或者直到身体无法工作。
For most of human history, you worked until you died on the farm or became physically unable to work.
根本没有退休这回事。
There was no such thing as retirement.
然后在1880年代，德国的领导人，一个叫奥托·冯·俾斯麦的人，为了拉拢人心，说：如果我们让年纪大的人停止工作，由政府来照顾他们，怎么样？
Then in the eighteen eighties, the head of Germany, this guy named Otto von Bismarck, looking to score some points, said, what if we let people stop working when they get older and the government takes care of you?
人们觉得，听起来不错。
People were like, sounds great.
慢慢地，这个想法在美国也流行起来了。
And slowly, the idea picked up in The United States as well.
到了三十年代，美国有了社会保障制度。
In the nineteen thirties, The US got Social Security.
然后六十年代有了医疗保险，人们开始退休了。
Then in the sixties, Medicare, and people started retiring.
而且，传统的养老金制度也更普遍，雇主会保证工人退休后每个月都能拿到固定金额的钱，直到去世。
Also, traditional pensions were more common, where employers would guarantee workers a specific amount of money every month for the rest of their life after retirement.
这些老式的养老金制度实际上鼓励工人在特定年龄退休。
And these old school pensions actually incentivized workers to retire at a specific age.
由于这些原因，四十年来退休年龄越来越早。
And for all of these reasons, the trend for four decades was earlier and earlier retirement.
但到了九十年代，这个趋势反过来了。
But then in the nineties, the trend reversed.
平均退休年龄开始回升。
The average age of retirement started going back up.
人们工作的时间更长了。
People were working longer.
这有几个原因。
And there are a few reasons for this.
首先，人们活得更长了，所以能工作更久。
For one, people were living longer so they could work longer.
另外，工作变得不那么费体力了，所以更容易继续工作。
Also, jobs got a lot less physically strenuous so it was easier to work longer.
而且传统的养老金制度开始消失，所以人们不得不工作更久。
And traditional pensions started going away so people couldn't afford not to work longer.
自八十年代中期以来，65岁及以上就业人口的比例几乎翻了一番。
The share of employed people 65 and older has close to doubled since the mid nineteen eighties.
现在大约19%的劳动力超过65岁。
Now about 19% of the workforce is over 65.
塞缪尔·莫因说，这带来了一些附带影响，比如年轻员工的晋升机会增加。
And Samuel Moyn says there have been some collateral effects, like upward mobility for younger workers.
当老年人占据职位不肯退休时，他们就在阻碍其他人获得他们已有的东西。
When older people are hoarding their positions and refusing to retire, they're inhibiting other people from getting what they have acquired.
这种赖着不走对年轻人不公平，他们常常不得不选择不同的职业，或者一直等着，才能在职场上有所进展。
This this staying on is unfair to younger people who often have to choose different careers or wait around, for a cent in their career.
年轻人工资涨不上去，职位也升不上去，然后呢……
Younger people can't move up in pay, can't move up in position, and then then
连工作都找不到。
get the job at all.
然后连房子都买不起，整个……
And then can't afford, like, to buy a home and the whole.
房子和其他福利都成了问题。
Houses and other benefits.
随着55岁以上工人比例上升，老年和年轻工人之间的工资差距也在扩大。
As the proportion of workers 55 has gone up, so has the pay gap between older and younger workers.
从1979年到2018年，55岁和35岁之间的工资差距增加了61%。
Between 1979 and 2018, the pay gap between those 55 and 35 has increased by 61%.
山姆指出，美国是历史上第一个年轻人比老年人更容易陷入贫困的社会。
Sam points out The US is the first society in history where you're more likely to be poor if you're young than if you're old.
然而萨姆说，大部分社会保障体系都是为美国老年人设立的。
And yet Sam says most of the social safety net is for older Americans.
对吧？
Right?
而不是那些收入较低、正处于职业生涯中期、为托儿费和买房发愁的人。
Not like lower paid mid career people struggling to afford childcare and buy a house.
好的。
Okay.
现在我们来谈谈解决方案。
Now we have to get to the solution.
你的解决方案是什么？
What is your solution?
嗯，我主要谈的是强制退休。
Well, the main one I talk about is mandatory retirement.
强制退休。
Mandatory retirement.
你的意思是，你觉得人们到了某个年龄就应该被强制退休吗？
Meaning, you think we should force people to retire when they hit a certain age?
对。
Correct.
山姆很谨慎地提到，当然，有很多年纪大的工人想退休但负担不起。
Sam is very careful to say that, of course, there are a lot of older workers who would love to retire but can't afford to.
对吧？
Right?
美国有数百万65岁以上的人生活在贫困线附近或以下。
There are millions of Americans over age 65 that live near or below the poverty line.
但他说的不是那些工人，你知道，那些从事体力劳动、工资低、工作辛苦的人。
But he is not talking about those workers, you know, people in blue collar, low paying, backbreaking jobs.
其实我们也应该创造性地思考如何在他们的退休生活中更好地帮助他们，但他们并不是霸占就业机会的人。
We should actually, like, be thinking creatively about how we can do better by them in their retirement too, but they're not the ones who are hoarding employment opportunity.
山姆说的是那些有能力退休却选择不退休的人，尤其是那些在政治等领域身居高位、拿最高薪水白领职位的人。
Sam is talking about those who can afford to retire but don't, particularly those in powerful positions like, you know, politics and those in the highest level, highest paying white collar jobs.
比如工程师、律师、法官、公司CEO、记者和教授。
So engineers, lawyers, judges, CEOs, journalists, professors.
萨姆说，学术界其实是最糟糕的地方，老年人引用来说就是赖着不走，损害了其他人的利益。
Sam says academia is actually worst of all as a place where older people, quote, stay on to the detriment of the rest.
那么，因为年龄原因强制让数百万工人失业合法吗？
Now, is it legal to force millions of workers out of their job because of their age?
不合法。
Nope.
确实不是。
Sure isn't.
在美国的大多数行业都不是，而且其实没过多久以前也还不是这样。
Not in most sectors of The US, but it used to be not too long ago even.
过去强制退休是很普遍的做法。
It used to be standard to have mandatory retirement.
在二十世纪七十年代，美国大约有一半的工作岗位都带有不可协商的到期日。
In the nineteen seventies, about half of all jobs in The US came with a nonnegotiable expiration date.
到了某个年龄，通常是65岁，工人就得被迫离开。
A date when workers would be forced to leave when they hit a certain age, usually age 65.
强制退休年龄背后的一个想法是帮助更新劳动力，引入拥有更新技能的年轻工人。
One of the ideas behind mandatory retirement ages was to help, like, freshen up the workforce, bring younger workers in with their newer skills.
所以像阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦、米尔顿·弗里德曼，这位诺贝尔经济学奖得主，也不得不退休。
So people like Albert Einstein, Milton Friedman, Nobel Prize winning economist, had to retire.
他们不得不离开大学，因为他们到了强制退休的年龄。
They had to leave their universities because they reached their age of mandatory retirement.
这是标准做法。
This was standard.
所以人们可能在同一个岗位上干了十年、二十年甚至四十年，然后突然被告知，哦，今天是你生日。
So people would be, like, at their job for a decade or two decades or four decades, and then they'd be like, oh, it's your birthday.
你该走了？
You're gone?
确实如此。
Absolutely.
比如，在他们生日那天？
Like, on their birthday?
在他们生日那天。
On their birthday.
真的吗？
And Really?
就是，就是
It it
而且你一开始就知道。
And you knew when you got in.
那，而且
That And
你从一开始就知道65岁退休。
you knew from the start you retired at 65.
对。
Yeah.
人们入职时就知道自己的最后一天是哪天，大家都能据此做计划。
People knew when they took the job what their last day was going to be, and everyone could plan around that.
即使1967年国会通过了《就业年龄歧视法》，雇主仍然可以强迫人们在65岁退休。
Even when Congress passed the Age Discrimination in Employment Act in 1967, employers were still allowed to force people to retire at age 65.
但在美国退休人员协会的游说和老年人的反对下，他们说，嘿，我们现在活得更久了。
But after lobbying from the AARP and pushback from seniors who were like, hey, we're living longer now.
为什么我们还有那么多人生要过，却要被赶出工作岗位？
Why are we getting kicked out of work when we still have so much life to live?
法律被修订了。
The law was revised.
他们说，不到70岁不能赶人走。
They said you couldn't kick anyone out until they hit age 70.
然后在1986年，法律再次修订，基本上禁止因年龄而强迫任何人退休。
Then the law was revised again in 1986 when it became largely illegal to force anyone to retire because of age.
尽管国会确实为大学做了一个临时豁免，因为大学和学术界强烈警告取消强制退休的后果，说这对商业、创新和研究都不利。
Though Congress did make a temporary exemption for universities because universities, academics, they were strongly warning against the consequences of eliminating mandatory retirement, saying it would be bad for business, bad for innovation, bad for research.
比如这位前芝加哥学校教务长，后来成了斯坦福大学校长。
Like this former Chicago school provost who went on to be Stanford University president.
哦，格哈德·卡斯帕。
Oh, Gerhard Casper.
对。
Yeah.
他可是很拼的。
He went hard.
他说了什么？
What did he say?
我没见过他，但他是我最敬佩的人之一。
I've never met him, but he is one of my heroes.
他说创新和教育来自年轻的教师。
He said that innovation and education comes from young faculty members.
教师倾向于教他们理解的东西，而他们最理解的是年轻时学到的东西。
Faculty tend to teach what they understand, and they understand best what they learned when they were young.
他警告过的事情全都应验了。
Everything he warned about has come true.
你是说，你觉得那样没问题？
Mean, you think that there's okay.
你觉得，年纪大的人做的研究质量比较差，是吧？
You think there's, like, the less quality research being done by the older oh, yeah.
你在摇头，好像觉得那当然是这样。
You're shaking your head, like, like, of course there.
你是什么意思？
What do you mean?
对。
Yeah.
不。
No.
就是……
It's
好的。
Okay.
米尔顿·弗里德曼，那位著名的经济学家，在他被大学强制退休的那一年获得了诺贝尔经济学奖。
Milton Friedman, famous economist, won the Nobel Prize in Economics the year that he was forced to mandatorily retire from his university.
是的。
Yeah.
不过那算是抵刑期了。
But that's that's that's for time served.
它并不是为了未来的承诺。
It's not for future promise.
诺贝尔奖是颁给你已经做出的成就，没人指望你再做一次。
Nobel prizes are for something you did, and no one's expecting you to do it again.
这话真够狠的。
Harsh.
自从他的书出版以来，萨姆一直被指责存在年龄歧视。但萨姆解释说这不算年龄歧视，因为他提出的方案适用于所有最终会变老的人。
Now Sam has been accused of ageism since his book came out, but Sam says it's not ageism because what he's proposing would apply to everyone who eventually becomes old.
所以年轻员工最终也会面临强制退休。
So younger workers would also be subject to forced retirement at some point.
对吧？
Right?
当然，把强制退休年龄定为非法也带来了意想不到的后果。
There were, of course, unintended consequences from making mandatory retirement ages illegal.
讽刺的是，这反而创造了歧视老年员工的新方式。
Ironically, it created new ways to discriminate against older workers.
因为，确实，这保护了现有员工不被赶走。
Because like, sure, it protects current employees from being forced out.
但雇主可能干脆不招老年员工，因为他们担心以后很难让他们走。
But employers might choose not to hire older workers at all because they worry they'll be difficult to let go later.
而且有点意外的是，在美国，一些行业仍然允许强制退休，比如商业飞行员、空中交通管制员、联邦消防员，还有不少州法官。
And kind of surprisingly, mandatory retirement is still allowed in some industries in The United States for commercial pilots, air traffic controllers, federal firefighters, often state judges.
在这些职业里，你没有权利一直干到自己决定离开为止。
In these professions, you do not have the right to stay on until you decide to leave.
空中交通管制员的强制退休年龄是56岁。
Air traffic controllers have a mandatory retirement age of 56.
这么年轻啊。
So young.
商业飞行员的强制退休年龄是65岁。
Commercial pilots have a mandatory retirement age of 65.
这个年龄上限是基于一项长达数年的安全研究。
And that age cap was based on a years long safety study.
几年前国会试图把飞行员的退休年龄提高到67岁，飞行员工会说，除非你能证明提高年龄是安全的，否则我们不要。
When Congress tried to raise the age of retirement for pilots to 67 a few years ago, the pilots union said, we don't want that unless you can prove that raising the age is safe.
而Sam其实只是在说，也许还有其他职业也应该考虑设置年龄上限。
And Sam's really just saying, maybe there are other professions out there that should also consider age caps.
对。
Mhmm.
好的。
Okay.
所以，我就是想问问你，你多大了？
So I I mean, I just I have to ask you how old how old are you?
我54了。
I'm 54.
你54了？
You're 54?
54岁半。
54.5.
好。
Okay.
行。
Alright.
55。
55.
你54。
You're 54.
或者54岁。
Or 54.
54岁半。
545.
54岁半。
54.5.
抱歉。
Sorry.
抱歉，大卫。
Sorry, David.
六个月的时候。
At six months.
所以你是说，你65岁就退休了？
So you're, like, you're out at 65?
你要退休了吗？
You're retiring?
我说的是70。
I've said 70.
其实我挺喜欢69.5的。
I mean, I like 69.5.
宾迪。
Bindi.
看看你。
Look at you.
你已经
You're
好吧，但你看，我们这儿有八十多岁的人。
already Well, But look, we have people who are in their eighties here.
你看，我想要一个大家都同意的通用规则，如果是65岁，我同意。
Look, I'm I want a general rule we all agree about, and if it's 65, I'm down.
如果可以的话，我会比那更早退休。
I would retire earlier than that if I might.
我不是说一定要这么做，但我肯定会在很多比我年长的同事选择退休之前就退休。
I mean, I'm not committing to it, but I'm definitely committing to retire before a lot of my older colleagues have chosen to do so.
你知道，80岁是新的70岁，而70岁是
Well, you know, 80 is the new 70, and 70 is
新的70岁。
the new 70.
我还不知道呢。
Wasn't aware.
好吧。
Okay.
知道了，奥利维亚。
Good to know Olivia.
我们请来了经济学家奥利维亚·米切尔来提出不同观点。
We called up economist Olivia s Mitchell for a counterpoint.
奥利维亚最初是劳动经济学家，现在在宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院主要研究养老金和退休问题。
Olivia started out as a labor economist, now focuses more on things like pensions and retirement at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School.
作为经济学家，奥利维亚从根本上否定了老年工人抢走年轻工人工作的说法。
And as an economist, Olivia fundamentally rejects the assertion that older workers are taking jobs away from younger workers.
这就是所谓的“劳动总量谬误”，我们之前在《金钱星球》节目里讲过。
This is known as the lump of labor fallacy, which we've covered on Planet Money before.
劳动总量谬误是指一种错误观念，认为经济中的工作量是固定的，就像一大块工作，大家都要争抢和分配。
The lump of labor fallacy is the mistaken belief that there is a fixed amount of work to be done in an economy, like one big lump of jobs that we all fight over and have to share.
所以劳动总量谬误就是说，劳动力市场上的工作岗位数量是有限的。
So the lump of labor fallacy is the notion that there's only a certain number of jobs in the labor market.
如果老年人不退休，年轻人、女性或者少数族裔就没有机会了。
And if the older people don't retire, there won't be any opportunities for the young or for women or for ethnic minorities.
而现实是，更多人工作会创造更多的工作岗位，也会带来更多的劳动力需求。
And the reality is that more people working create more jobs and create more demand for labor.
我觉得一个很好的例子就是女性进入劳动力市场的时候。
I mean, think a good example is like when women entered the labor force.
对。
Right.
并不是说我们把男人的工作都抢走了，现在男人就没工作了。
It's not like we took all the men's jobs and now there weren't enough jobs for men.
就是说，我们需要多少工作，就能创造多少工作，大概是这个意思。
Like, we will make as many jobs as we need is sort of the idea.
对。
Right.
而且我想说，当女性进入有偿劳动力市场时，这为其他人创造了工作机会，比如帮她们打理家务、照顾孩子。
And I would say that when women did go into the paid labor market, that created jobs for other people to help them, you know, help take care of their houses, help take care of their children.
保姆。
Babysitters.
对。
Right.
奥利维亚说，认为年长者拒绝退休就会阻碍年轻人找到工作的想法，是完全错误的。
The idea that an older person refusing to retire is preventing a younger person from finding a job is just wrong, Olivia says.
但这并不是山姆唯一在说的观点。
But that's not necessarily the only thing that Sam is saying.
我明白，工作机会不是有限的，而且越多的人工作会创造新的工作和新的机会。
I see that for, like, there's not a finite number of jobs, and the more people working creates new jobs and new opportunities.
这些都说得通。
That all makes sense.
对。
Right.
但我觉得有些人的论点，比如这本书的作者塞缪尔·莫恩，他并不是真的在说年轻工人没有足够的工作机会。
But I think some people's arguments, like this this book author, Samuel Moyn, he's not really saying there aren't enough jobs for younger workers.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他说的是没有足够的高薪工作，而且这是因为年长的工人拿的薪水最高。
He's saying there's not enough well paying jobs and that it's because the older workers have the highest salaries.
他多大了？
How old is he?
不超过60岁。
Not not above 60.
展开剩余字幕（还有 201 条）
对。
Yeah.
你为什么这么说？
Why do you say that?
我只是好奇。
I was just curious.
对。
Yeah.
总之，人们总是拿劳动总量谬论来跟山姆说事。
So anyways, yeah, people always bring up the lump of labor fallacy to Sam.
一般来说，他也同意更多人工作会创造更多就业机会，对经济有好处。
And generally, he agrees that more people working creates more jobs, is good for the economy.
总的来说，有更多的工作岗位是好事，而且有人有工作并不意味着不能创造新的工作岗位。
In general, it's great to have more jobs, and the fact that someone holds a job doesn't forbid the creation of a new job.
但有时候确实会这样。
But sometimes it does.
所以经济中的工作岗位并不是有限的，但在某些领域可能是有限的，比如终身教授。
So there is not a finite number of jobs in the economy, but maybe there are in some sectors, like tenured professors, for example.
休息之后，我们会具体讨论强制退休制度如何运作，以及适用于哪些人。
After the break, we put some real parameters on how mandatory retirement could work and for who.
还有，奥利维亚的一个犀利观点。
Also, a hot take from Olivia.
我觉得人们退休太早了。
Well, I think people retire far too early.
好的。
Okay.
所以，你开车上班，或者散步，或者在健身房，或者随便什么，你只是想理清思绪。
So you're driving to work or you're on a walk or you're at the gym or whatever, and you just need to clear your head.
那是按下播放键，收听NPR的《All Songs Considered》的最佳时机。
That's the perfect time to hit the play button on NPR's All Songs Considered.
这不是新闻。
It's not the news.
不是工作，也不是其他让你烦心的事。
It's not work or whatever else is weighing you down.
只是和好朋友一起享受美好时光，听好听的音乐。
It's just a good time with good friends and great tunes.
每周二在NPR音乐播客中收听《All Songs Considered》。
Listen to all songs considered every Tuesday in the NPR music podcast.
从电灯泡到互联网，人类历史一直由创新推动，而《Shortwave》正在探索明天的技术将如何改变我们的未来。
From the light bulb to the Internet, human history has been driven by innovation, and Shortwave is exploring how the technology of tomorrow will transform our future.
你会坐飞行出租车吗？
Would you ride in a flying taxi?
AI模型会参与战争吗？
Will AI models fight wars?
每周一在《Tech Camp》节目中了解科技前沿，这是《Shortwave》的新系列。
Hear about the technological frontier every Monday on Tech Camp, the new series from Shortwave.
在NPR应用或任何你收听播客的地方收听。
Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
重大新闻不一定按你的时间表来。
Big news stories don't always break on your schedule.
但有了NPR应用，新闻、文化和播客随时都在你口袋里，想听就听。
But with the NPR app, news, culture, and podcasts are ready when you want them in your pocket.
今天就下载NPR应用吧。
Download the NPR app today.
你介意告诉我们你的年龄吗？
Do you mind sharing with us how old you are?
我73岁了。
I'm 73.
那是经济学家奥利维亚·米切尔。
That's economist Olivia s Mitchell again.
那你怎么看待工作？
And how do you feel about work?
你热爱工作吗？
Are you I love
我的工作。
my work.
我每天醒来都会想，哦，还有新东西可以探索。
I wake up every day, say, Oh, there's new things I can explore.
我特别兴奋。
I'm so excited.
真的吗？
Really?
对，我没打算退休。
Yeah, I'm not planning to retire.
我是说，到某个时候。
I mean, at some point.
嗯，也许再干十年。
Well, maybe another ten years.
我们会全力以赴，一切都按十年计划来。
We'll give it everything's on a ten year plan.
我们
We'll
看看吧。
see.
奥利维亚可能会考虑在83岁左右退休，但，怎么说呢，很难说。
Olivia will maybe consider retiring around age 83, but, like, hard maybe.
我还有很多研究要做。
I have a lot of research left in me.
我还有很多书想写。
I have a lot of books I wanna write.
我跟塞缪尔·莫因提过奥利维亚。
I told Samuel Moyn about Olivia.
她说，我不打算退休。
She's like, I do not plan on retiring.
我觉得，咱们看看那70篇的引用次数，看看会怎么样。
I think that's let's check the citation counts of those 70 and see what what happens.
到底什么样的工作才能真正改变领域呢？
What what work actually changes fields?
说实话，那70个人里很难找出很多这样的成果，恕我直言。
Hard to think of a lot produced by those 70, with all due respect.
萨姆的批评真是接二连三啊。
The hits keep coming from Sam.
而且听着，萨姆的论点在这里确实开始让人不太舒服了。
And listen, this is where Sam's argument does start to get more uncomfortable.
对吧？
Okay?
因为他说，在研究方面，年轻的学者往往更有创新力。
Because he is saying that when it comes to research, younger academics tend to be more innovative.
他也承认，在某些职业里，年纪越大，确实做得越好，因为那些工作更看重重复练习。
And he does admit that in some professions, the older you get, sure, the better you get at your job because it's more about repetition.
比如钢琴家，或者，我也不知道，口译员之类的。
So like think a pianist or maybe, I don't know, an interpreter.
但比如说在科学领域，根据《科学》杂志上的一项同行评审研究，芝加哥大学的研究人员确实发现，引用一下，科学创新会随着科学家年龄增长而收窄。
But like in science, for example, according to a peer reviewed study in the Journal of Science, researchers from the University of Chicago did find that quote, scientific innovation narrows as scientists age.
他们写道，年轻科学家更有可能在各自领域引发颠覆性变革，用新想法取代既有观念。
They wrote younger scientists are, quote, more likely to instigate disruption in their fields, replacing established ideas with new ones.
而年长的科学家则倾向于在之前工作的基础上继续迭代。
While older scientists tend to iterate on their earlier work.
当然，这并不适用于所有工作，但有些工作确实如此。
Now of course, this is not true for all jobs, but some.
而且有一种经济学理论也在某种程度上支持这些观点，同时为强制退休提供了依据。
And there is this economic theory that kind of backs some of this stuff up too, and the case for mandatory retirement.
好。
Okay.
有这么一位经济学家，他叫爱德华·拉齐尔，他曾说过强制退休促成了员工和雇主之间的隐性契约。
So there is this economist, his name was Edward Lazear, and he used to say that mandatory retirement enabled this implicit contract between the worker and the employer.
这个契约基本上是说，当你是年轻员工时，你的薪资会低于你的生产力。
And it basically says, when you are a younger worker, you get paid less than your productivity.
但我们会给予奖励，当你年纪大了成为资深员工时，你的薪水会高于你的实际产出。
But we reward you by when you're an older worker, you get paid more than your productivity.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
对吧？
Right?
他的意思是，这种模式之所以行得通，是因为大家都能接受，毕竟年纪大了之后是有个终点的。
And he's like, but that only works, and we all were okay with that because there was an end date to when you're an older worker.
不然的话，如果你一直干到七十岁、七十五岁甚至八十岁，那你拿的薪水就太高了，这其实超过了你年轻时被少发的那部分报酬。
Because otherwise, if you stay past, you know, 70, 75, 80, you're just getting this high salary, and it's more than what we should have compensated you from this chunk when you were underpaid.
明白了。
Okay.
对吧？
Right?
太棒了。
Brilliant.
太棒了。
Brilliant.
完全同意他的观点。
Totally agree with his his point.
随着老人政治的兴起，我们看到的是那些不肯退位的人对隐性契约的破坏。
With the rise of Gerontocracy, what we have is like a rupture of the implicit contract by those who are hanging on.
现在并不是说老年工人一定变得不那么有生产力。
Now it's not that older workers necessarily become less productive.
而是他们的薪水高于他们的生产力。
It's that their salaries are just higher than their productivity.
这位经济学家爱德华·拉齐尔说，强制退休纠正了这一点。
And this economist, Edward Lazier, said mandatory retirement corrected for that.
我跟艾迪·拉齐尔很熟。
So I know Eddie Lazier quite well.
这种隐性契约曾经一度有效，但那种模式已经崩溃了。
The implicit contract, it worked for a time, but that model broke down.
奥利维亚说，如今，认为年长员工普遍薪酬高于其生产力的假设，远不如拉齐尔写论文时那么有说服力，而且这可能对当今劳动力市场的薪酬实践描述得不够全面，因为现在人们经常跳槽。
Olivia says the assumption that older workers are generally overpaid relative to productivity is much less convincing today than when Lazier wrote his paper, and that it is probably a less complete description of compensation practices in today's labor market because people bounce around now.
他们不会一辈子待在一份工作上，直到达到薪酬过高的阶段，而且早期职业员工也不太可能因为这样而忍受低薪。
They don't stay at one job forever to reach that stage when they become overpaid, and early career workers are less likely to tolerate being underpaid because of that.
而且，现在时代不同了。
Also, it's just a different time now.
奥利维亚说，过去有很多因素让强制退休年龄对雇主和员工都有效，比如传统养老金，现在这种养老金已经很少见了。
Olivia says there were a bunch of things that actually enabled mandatory retirement ages to work for the employer and for the employee, like traditional pensions, which are so rare now.
如果我们看看现在的体系，奥利维亚说，实际上有充分的理由尽可能长时间地工作。
If we look at the system now, Olivia says there is every reason to work longer as long as possible, actually.
她说，延迟退休不仅对个人有好处。
She says delaying retirement is not just good for you as a person.
对经济也有好处。
It's good for the economy.
对经济来说，延迟退休能提高劳动力参与率。
For the economy, delayed retirement boosts labor force participation.
还能增加税收。
It raises tax revenues.
缓解劳动力短缺，并带来更多经济增长。
It eases labor shortages, and it generates more economic growth.
奥利维亚到处旅行，
Olivia travels all over the
为各国政府提供养老金和社会保障体系的建议。
world advising governments about their pension and social security systems.
她说人们退休太早了，根本不足以满足自己的需求。
And she says people are retiring far too early to cover their own needs.
根据美国社会保障规定，最早62岁就可以停止工作。
Under The US Social Security rules, you can stop working as early as age 62.
但我不建议这么做，因为如果你等到70岁再领取，你的福利会增加75%。
But I wouldn't advise that because if you delay claiming until you're 70, your benefits go up by 75%.
是的。
Yeah.
这个制度
The system
会奖励那些晚退休的人。
rewards you if you retire later.
所以我的建议是：多工作，多储蓄，少期待。
So my advice is work more, save more, and expect less.
这就是我的信条。
That's my mantra.
少期待，是说不要指望政府来支持你吗？
Expect less, like, from the government to support you?
是的，因为社会保障制度大约六年后就会面临破产。
Yes, because Social Security is running into insolvency within about six years.
顺便说一句，医疗保险资金也快不够了。
By the way, Medicare is also running short of money.
所以，当你考虑现在退休需要多少钱时，你会发现退休的成本越来越高。
So when you think about the amount of money you need to retire on these days, it's getting more expensive to retire at all.
这就引出了奥利维亚的核心观点。
And this gets to the heart of Olivia's point.
奥利维亚认为，作为一个社会，我们其实负担不起让人们提前退休。
As a society, Olivia says, we can't actually afford to let people retire earlier.
如果萨姆的主要诉求是为年轻工人争取公平，那么奥利维亚指出，提前退休并不能给他们带来这种公平。
So if Sam's whole point is, you know, justice for younger workers, Olivia says early retirement would not give them that.
所以如果更多人提前退休，年轻人就得交更高的税来养活我们。可那时候我们明明还能创造生产力，为经济做贡献呢，对吧？
So if more people retired younger, then those who are young would end up paying much higher taxes to take care of us, right, when we could be very productive and we could be generating output for the economy.
所以我并不支持大家早早退休。
So I am not in favor of people retiring young.
企业会面临非常严峻的招聘难题。
Companies would face terrible hiring challenges.
生产力会下滑，政府的税收收入也会减少。
Productivity would decline, government tax revenues would decline.
所以这不是个好主意。
So it's not a good idea.
还记得国会想提高商用飞行员强制退休年龄，但飞行员工会说不行，我们认为这不安全吗？
Remember when Congress wanted to raise the mandatory retirement age for commercial pilots and the pilots union said, no, we don't think it's safe?
国会想提高年龄是因为我们缺少商用飞行员。
The reason congress wanted to raise the age was because we had a shortage of commercial pilots.
其实现在还是缺。
We still do actually.
很多行业都缺人手，比如水管工、电工、注册护士、家庭护理助手。
We don't have enough workers in a lot of sectors, plumbers, electricians, registered nurses, home health aides.
所以大家都到70岁就退休，或者什么的，真不是个好主意。
So everyone retiring when they turned 70 or whatever, not a great idea.
但公平地说，山姆的提议比这更细致。
But in fairness to Sam, his proposal is more nuanced than that.
我觉得这可能是分领域的。
I think it could be domain specific.
他说的是不同工作有不同的年龄上限，甚至不一定每个工作都有。
He's talking different age caps for different jobs and not for every single job even necessarily.
这真的取决于是否存在供应危机，以及如果人们不想离开，是否有理由强迫他们离开。
It really does depend on is there a supply crisis, and is there a reason to force people out if they don't wanna leave?
他只是认为公司应该有权强制员工退休，并且应该有政府法规让每个行业自行决定，并根据劳动力短缺情况随时调整。
He just thinks companies should have the option to force people to retire and that there should be government regulations that let each industry decide and let them change their mind depending on what their labor shortages might be.
给我举个例子，哪个职业或行业你认为可能或应该豁免于强制退休年龄。
Give me an example of a profession or an industry where you think they maybe could be or should be exempt from mandatory retirement ages.
哦，小学老师是我最好的例子，因为教师供应严重不足。
Oh, primary school teacher is my best example because there's a crisis in supply.
没人愿意干这行，工资太低了。
Nobody wants to do the job, it's very poorly paid.
我觉得如果我们真的给予它应有的地位和薪酬，它就会像其他白领职业一样，存在人才输送问题。
I think if we actually gave it the status it deserves and the pay it deserves, it would be then just like other white collar professions where you have pipeline issues.
但现在，美国公立学校的孩子受益于教师留下来，而不是被强制退休。
But right now, like, the the public school children of America benefit by having teachers stay rather than be forced out.
就算他们八十岁、八十五岁、七十五岁。
Even if they're 80, 85, 75.
没有其他人愿意做。
No one else wants to.
对。
Yeah.
因为你提到的一点是，他们可能不如以前那么胜任工作了。
Because one of the things you're saying is like they might not be as good as their job as they once were.
嗯，有老师总比没有好。
Well, any teacher is better than none.
好的。
Okay.
虽然山姆和奥利维亚看起来分歧很大，但这里他们开始有点一致了。
While it seems like Sam and Olivia are pretty far apart, here is where they start to align a little more.
因为，对，山姆并不是说所有超过某个年龄的人都必须完全退出劳动力市场。
Because, right, Sam is not actually saying that all people over age, whatever, need to leave the labor force entirely.
对吧？
Right?
他只是说，那些拿着高薪、工作轻松的人，应该让位，让年轻人有机会往上走。
He's just saying that those in high paying cushy jobs, as he says it, should, you know, step aside so younger workers can move up.
而且他确实认为，做有意义的工作对人有好处。
And he does think that doing meaningful work is good for you.
他只是说，去找其他有意义的工作，让你保持活力，保持大脑活跃，保持与人互动。
He's just saying, find other meaningful work that can still keep you moving, keep your brain active, keep you interacting with people.
有研究表明，工作更久、保持社交网络的人，活得更健康、更长寿。
There is research that suggests that people who work longer and maintain their social networks live healthier, longer.
山姆并不是想剥夺这些。
Sam's not trying to take that away from anyone.
他的意思是，去面包店工作，开一家面包店，去博物馆工作，或者就在你现在的领域里慢慢退居二线。
He's like, work at a bakery, open a bakery, work at a museum, or maybe just start stepping aside in your current field.
你可以选择渐进式退休，比如继续教点课，你知道的。
You can have phased retirement where you teach a bit, you know.
你可以留在公司里，像个慈祥的长辈顾问一样。
You could remain in your firm as like an avuncular counselor.
以付费顾问的身份来，带着你所有的知识和经验，继续做研究，只是不再是全职的终身教授。
Come on as a paid consultant with all of your knowledge and experience, still do research, just not as a full time tenured professor.
对于学者来说，我可以一直写文章和写书，直到我生命的最后一天。
For academics, I can write articles and books until my dying day.
但你就没有工资了？
But you lose your salary?
你有401(k)退休金。
You have a four zero one k.
这意味着你有收入，但不再是工资了。
That means that you have an income, but it's not a salary anymore.
好的。
Okay.
但你还有一张图书馆借书卡。
But you have a library card.
在像耶鲁这样有钱的学校，你还有办公室。
At at rich institutions like Yale, you have an office.
有些大学还给你终身免费住房。
At some universities, you get free housing forever.
所以其实你损失很少。
So you lose very little.
其实奥利维亚觉得这个主意不错。
Actually, Olivia thinks this is a good idea.
你知道吗，我觉得完全没问题。
You know, I think that's perfectly fine.
事实上，在日本，他们还有强制退休制度。
In fact, in Japan, they still have mandatory retirement.
但是当年长的员工到了那个年龄，他们并不会被迫回家。
But what happens when the older worker hits that age, they're not forced to go home.
他们会做的是开始培养年轻一代，让他们能够接替自己的位置。
What they do is they start training the younger generation to be able to fill their shoes.
我觉得这在美国会是个好模式。
And I think that would be a good model in The US.
各位，我们达成一致了。
Guys, we have agreement.
想继续工作就继续，但要做点有意义的事，同时给年轻人留出上升空间。
Continue working if you want, but do something else that is meaningful that still allows for youthful succession.
我们做到了。
We did it.
顺便说一句，Sam说他的书出版后，有两个人联系他，说他们打算退休了，因为他们觉得这对年轻员工来说是正确的事。
By the way, Sam says two people have reached out to him since his book came out to say that they were gonna retire now because they thought it was the right thing to do for younger workers.
至于Olivia，她打算继续留在岗位上。
As for Olivia, she's staying put.
她的工作给她带来成就感。
Her work brings her fulfillment.
如果你们想工作到至少85岁，那我也希望你们能这样。
If what you wanna do is to work until at least 85, then that's what I want for you all.
谢谢。
Thank you.
也祝你一样。
And same to you.
我会看到你100岁还在工作。
I'll you working in when you're 100.
我可不想那样。
I don't think I want that.
我希望自己正好相反。
I wish for the opposite for me.
明白了。
I see.
还记得瑞安和维杰吗？他们之前觉得工作卡住了，升不上去，最后都离开了公司。
And remember Ryan and Vijay who felt stuck and couldn't move up in their jobs, they both ended up leaving their companies.
他们说实在没有晋升的空间了。
They said there was just no way for them to advance anymore.
在你们离开之前，我们有个小忙想请你们帮一下。
Before you leave, we have a quick favor to ask you.
请在你们的播客应用上点一下关注按钮。
Please hit the follow button on your podcast app.
我们知道有很多常听的听众其实并没有正式关注我们。
We know that we have a lot of regular listeners who don't technically follow us.
而且这些应用一直在变。
And these apps, they're changing all the time.
现在比以往任何时候，点关注不仅能让你们不错过未来的节目，还能帮助其他人发现《Planet Money》。
And more than ever, hitting that follow button helps you not miss future shows, but also it helps other people find Planet Money.
所以这也是支持我们节目的一种方式。
So it's one way to support our show.
还要一如既往地感谢我们的NPR Plus支持者，他们可以享受无广告收听和额外节目，比如最近一次直播的Zoom通话，其中《The Indicator》的Adrian Ma和Waylon Wong与一位住房经济学家一起回答了你们关于住房的问题。
And thanks as always to our NPR Plus supporters who get sponsor free listening and bonus episodes like just recently a live Zoom call in where Adrian Ma and Waylon Wong from The Indicator answered your housing questions with a housing economist.
想了解详情，请访问 +.npr.org。
For that, go to +.npr.org for all the details.
今天的节目由维拉·鲁宾制作，预订协助来自萨姆·耶洛霍斯·凯斯勒。
Today's show was produced by Willa Rubin with booking help from Sam Yellow Horse Kessler.
节目由埃里克·米西齐斯·门内尔编辑，夏洛特·伊萨多尔负责事实核查，罗伯特·罗德里格斯和吉米·基利负责工程。
It was edited by Eric Misitzis Mennel, fact checked by Charlotte Isador, and engineered by Robert Rodriguez and Jimmy Keeley.
特别感谢商业内幕网的诺亚·希德洛尔。
Special thanks also to Noah Shidelower at Business Insider.
我是莎拉·冈萨雷斯。
I'm Sarah Gonzalez.
这里是NPR。
This is NPR.
感谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
工人阶级。
The working class.
这个词政客们最近经常挂在嘴边，但我们真的知道它到底是什么意思吗？
It's a term politicians throw around a lot these days, but do we know what it actually means?
中期选举就要来了。
Midterm elections are coming up.
在《It's Been a Minute》节目中，我们讨论这些候选人真正谈论的是谁。
And on It's Been a Minute, we discuss who these candidates are really talking about.
在YouTube上观看完整的《It's Been a Minute》节目，或者在NPR应用或任何你收听播客的地方收听。
Watch the full It's Been a Minute episode on YouTube or listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
中期选举即将到来，这意味着本已激烈的新闻周期，今年秋天将变得更加激烈。
The midterms are coming, and that means the new cycle, which is already intense, is about to get more intense this fall.
所以这个夏天是调整你新闻摄入量的最佳时机。
So this summer is a perfect time to make sure your news diet is calibrated.
我是莱拉·法尔迪尔。
I'm Layla Faldil.
在《Up First》节目中，我们每天早上都会解读三大新闻，让你在不到十五分钟内了解最新动态，继续你的一天。
On Up First, we unpack the three biggest stories every morning so you can stay informed and get on with your day in less than fifteen minutes.
今天就关注或订阅《Up First》，无论你在哪里收听。
Follow or subscribe to Up First today wherever
you get your podcasts.
you get your podcasts.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。