我们现在都应该申请关税退款吗？

本期节目由Pushkin Industries为您呈现。

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迈克尔·刘易斯的新有声书讲述了特朗普政府效率部门成立初期的故事，这些故事是由那些被该部门针对的公务员们讲述的。

Michael Lewis' new audiobook looks at the early days of Trump's Department of Government efficiency as told by the public servants it targeted.

请在blockers.fm上获取《Blockers》这本书。

Get blockers on blockers.fm.

现已上线。

Available now.

这里是NPR的《金钱星球》节目。

This is Planet Money from NPR.

我们现在不是都应该收到关税退款吗？

Shouldn't we all be getting tariff refunds right now?

因为我还没收到任何退款，尽管我，可能还有你，听众朋友们，作为美国消费者，因为那些卖给我们商品的公司需要支付关税，而我们在购买商品时总体上支付了更多的钱。

Because I have not received one even though I, and likely you, listener, paid more in general for goods as a US consumer because the companies selling us those goods had to pay tariffs.

而现在，很多这些关税已经被最高法院推翻了。

And now a ton of those tariffs have been struck down by the supreme court.

美国政府已经开始向那些把关税转嫁给我们的公司支付数十亿美元的关税退款。

The US government has started to pay billions in tariff refunds to companies who again passed along tariffs to us.

所以，尽管他们让我们付了关税，他们却拿到了退款。

So they get the tariff refunds even though they made us pay tariffs.

有时候，他们是通过把关税计入更高的价格，间接地或者只是部分地让我们承担。

Sometimes they made us pay those tariffs indirectly or or just partially by baking them into higher prices.

但有时候，就像今天节目中心这个关键案例一样，公司直接告诉我们：这就是关税。

But sometimes, as is the fateful case at the center of today's episode, companies flat out told us, here's the tariff.

你来付。

You pay it.

你还记得在哪里……

Do you remember where...

你现在在办公桌前吗？

Are you at your desk?

比如，尽量描述一下你买这个东西的过程。

Like, paint as much a picture of when you go through the process of buying this.

这将是，这将是肥皂剧的部分。

This is gonna be the this is gonna be the soap opera part.

好的。

Okay.

说实话，我可能就在床上刷手机。

I was honestly probably in my bed just scrolling.

这是《金钱星球》的听众，艾米·崔。

This is Planet Money listener, Amy Choi.

然后……

And...

好的。

Okay.

在床上玩手机显然不是什么肥皂剧场景。

Being on a phone in bed is not obviously a soap opera scene.

不过，我们《金钱星球》认为，关税已经把我们生活中最平凡的部分变成了一场缓慢燃烧的连续剧，虽然可能以小事发生，但确实累积成了一场历史性的经济大戏。

However, we here at Planet Money would argue that tariffs have turned even the most mundane parts of our lives into a slow burning saga that may happen in small ways, but really do add up to an economic drama of historic proportions.

这些变化很容易被忽略，它们以细微的方式发生，但我们应该注意到它们。

It's easy to miss, it plays out in tiny ways, but we should notice them.

所以，我们时不时会把肥皂剧的聚光灯对准一些事情，比如，你知道的，艾米·崔坐在床上不停地刷手机。

And that is why from time to time, we will force the spotlight of a soapy melodrama onto something like, you know, Amy Choi sitting in bed scrolling and scrolling.

她不一定是在购物，但这时她看到了那封邮件。

Not necessarily shopping, but then she sees the email.

邮件里说，嘿。

The email says that, hey.

Playdate 有货了。

The Playdate is back in stock.

Playdate 是一款非常小的掌上游戏机，不是那些知名游戏公司生产的。

The Playdate is a very small handheld video game console that is not made by any of the famous video game companies.

我不想称它为现代嬉皮士版的 Game Boy，但它确实是一款小批量生产、价格不菲、复古风格的掌上游戏设备，而且经常售罄。

I I don't wanna call it a modern hipster Game Boy, but it is a small batch, pricey, retro styled handheld video game device that sells out all the time.

直到去年，在关税最严重的时候，艾米收到了那封邮件。

Until last year, at the height of the tariffs, Amy got the email.

Playdate 有货了。

Playdate was back in stock.

你会怎么想？

And you think what?

你知道吗，我……

You know, I...

我在想，嘿。

I'm thinking, hey.

我完全忘了这东西的存在，但它挺可爱的。

You know, I I completely forgot that this thing existed, but it's it's cute.

现在目录里可能有不少游戏了。

There's probably quite a few games, you know, on the catalog now.

咱们试试吧。

Let's let's give it a shot.

Amy 去看了 Playdate 游戏机，价格是 229 美元。

Amy goes to check out Playdate console, $229.

那个让它看起来像披萨盒的保护壳，20美元。

Cover that makes it look like a pizza box, $20.

她住在加州，税是24.28美元。

Tax for California where she lives, $24.28.

我这里还有一项关税，14.02美元。

And I have a line item here for tariffs at, $14.02.

艾米心想，好吧。

Amy thinks, alright.

关税我就付了吧。

I'll pay the tariffs.

我觉得作为消费者，我们其实挺信任这些公司的。

I think as consumers, we sort of we we put a lot of trust in these companies.

买东西的时候，我们就会想，你知道吗？

When we buy something, we're like, you know what?

如果他们说我要付14.02美元的关税，那我肯定就得付这么多。

If they say I owe $14.02 in tariffs, then I must owe $14.02 on the tariffs.

艾米当时还不知道，她马上就要成为《关税岁月》里的主角了。

Amy didn't know it, but she was about to become a main character in The Days of Our Tariffs.

就像经济中的沙粒一样，我们的关税岁月也是如此。

Like the sands through the economy, so are the days of our tariffs.

大家好，欢迎收听《金钱星球》。

Hello, and welcome to Planet Money.

今天这期节目，讲的是退款与遗憾。

Today's episode, Refunds and Regrets.

一台小小的游戏机，会不会成为艾米·崔渴望已久的伙伴，还是说，它会成为背叛的开始？

Could a tiny video game system be the companion Amy Choi had longed for, or could it be the beginning of betrayal?

我们将罕见地深入那家把关税转嫁给艾米的公司内部，看看他们是如何决定是否把退款也转给她的。

We will get an unusually intimate look from inside the company that passed their tariff along to Amy and their decision about whether or not to also pass their refund along

给她。

to her.

另外，为什么申请个人退款这事儿，哎，真是一团糟，但你也许还有别的选择。

Plus, why applying for your own personal refund is, yeah, it's a whole mess, But you may have options.

休息之后我们会为你详细讲解。

We'll walk you through them after the break.

这条消息来自Grainger。

This message comes from Grainger.

对于那些把事情搞定的人，Grainger提供你完成工作所需的专业级产品。

For the ones who get it done, Grainger offers the professional grade products you need to get the job done.

快速配送，还有技术产品专家随时帮你应对各种挑战。

With fast delivery and access to technical product experts ready to help you meet any challenge.

打电话、点击granger.com，或者直接到店。

Call, clickgranger.com or just stop by.

这条消息来自Rula。

This message comes from Rula.

世界心理健康日在十月，这时候正好是迈出下一步、寻求支持的好时机，如果你需要的话。

World Mental Health Day takes place in October, making it a great time to take that next step in getting support if you need it.

Rula让获得优质心理保健变得负担得起，保险后每次咨询平均只需15美元。

Rula makes accessing quality mental health care affordable with sessions costing an average of $15 with insurance.

所以，关掉那些阻碍你前进的内心独白，去 rula.com 看看吧。

So turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com.

就是 rula.com，轻松找到心理治疗师。

That's rula.com to find a therapist the easy way.

新闻自由是对我们人民的重要保障。

A free press is a critical protection for We The People.

NPR 网络自豪地维护你的第一修正案权利，提供独立新闻，只对你负责。

The NPR network proudly upholds your First Amendment rights with independent journalism that answers only to you.

你的支持让我们的记者在一线监督权力，而决定公共媒体未来走向的权力在你手中。

Your support keeps our reporters on the ground holding power to account, and the power to decide what's next for public media is yours.

请访问 donate.npr.org 捐款。

Give at donate.npr.org.

如果让我负责关税退款，我会建一个官方网站，上面放一个那种巨大的筹款温度计图表，每天红色部分都会减少一点，直到所有关税钱都退完，但现实不是这样。

If I were in charge of tariff refunds, I would set up an official website with one of those, like, giant fundraising thermometer graphs, and every day it would get a a little less and less full of red until all the tariff money has been paid back, but there isn't that.

相反，美国政府不得不定期向国际贸易法院提交文件，我一直在关注这些文件，以便了解退款进展。

Instead, the US government has to make these occasional filings with the court of international trade, which I've been pulling regularly to give me a glimpse into how refunds are going.

我能找到的最近一份文件显示，截至九月初，已经退还了1220亿美元的关税。

And the last one I could find said that as of early September, $122,000,000,000 of tariff refunds had been paid back.

退给了哪些公司？

To which companies?

退给了多少家公司？

To how many companies?

文件里没说。

Doesn't say.

但我可以告诉你的是，大约有20万美元的退款正在返还给制造Playdate游戏机的公司，这不是因为文件里提到了，而是因为我问了他们。

But what I can say is that about $200,000 of refund money is making its way back to the company that makes the Playdate video game console, not because it was in the filing or anything, because, I asked them.

顺便问一下，你的名字怎么念？

How do I say your name, by the way?

哦，是Cable。

Oh, it's Cable.

就像Cable那样。

Just like Cable.

对，就像那样。

Like Yeah.

就像那个电缆工一样。

Like cable guy.

你明白了。

You got it.

Cable Sasser是Panic公司的CEO兼联合创始人，这家公司就是做Playdate的。

Cable Sasser is CEO and cofounder of Panic, the company that makes the Playdate.

他们总部在俄勒冈州的波特兰。

They're based in Portland, Oregon.

他们公司很小，大概只有25名员工。

They're tiny, like 25 employees.

他们最出名的可能是帮忙推出了一款叫《无题大鹅》的游戏，你在里面到处溜达，就是当一只鹅。

Probably most famous for helping launch a video game called Untitled Goose Game in which you wander around and just be a goose.

我知道听起来有点傻，但说真的，这游戏当时挺火的，而且特别好玩。

I know it sounds silly, but, genuinely, it was a big deal and was very fun.

总之，Panic故事里最戏剧化的部分，值得拍成肥皂剧的那部分，大概是从七年前开始的。

Anyway, the dramatic part of Panic's story, the one worth soap opera fying, well, that starts about seven years ago.

我们当时真的很想尝试点不一样的东西，结果，天哪，我们确实试了个不一样的。

We just really wanted to try something different, and, boy, did we try something different.

Panic公司宣布他们要制造一台实体游戏机，尽管他们之前从未制造或销售过任何实体产品。

The panic company announced that they were going to make a physical video game console even though they had never made and sold a physical object before.

Playdate的外观会有点像早期的iPod。

The Playdate was going to look a little like an early iPod.

它会是出租车那种黄色，而且特别的是，它的一个控制装置是内置的摇杆。

It was gonna be taxi cab yellow, and uniquely, one of its controls was gonna be a built in crank.

想象一下，就像你用来操作钓鱼竿的那个东西。

Imagine, like, the thing you use to work a fishing rod.

最初的生产量只有两万台。

Now the initial run was only 20,000.

Panic其实不太清楚自己在做什么，于是决定和一个顾问合作，那个顾问后来把他们安排到了马来西亚的一家工厂。

Panic had no real idea what they were doing and decided to work with a consultant who then decided to put them in a factory in Malaysia.

我们合作的那位顾问在马来西亚制造东西方面经验很丰富。

The consultant we sort of worked with has had great experiences making things in Malaysia.

具体来说，工作条件很好。

Specifically, working conditions were good.

他说你不用担心所谓的“影子线”，就是他们生产你的产品，然后仿冒你的产品。

He said you don't need to worry about something called shadow lines, which is where they make your product and then they make a bootleg of your product.

我喜欢影子线。

I like shadow lines.

所以，是的，通过那个过程我们学到了一些非常有趣的东西。

So, yeah, some really interesting things that we learned through that process.

首批两万台Playdate在二十分钟内就卖光了。

The first 20,000 Playdates sold out in twenty minutes.

Panic又生产了更多。

Panic made more.

那些也卖光了。

Those sold out.

这基本上是个很顺利的制造业务，直到2025年，Cable开始听到传闻说特朗普总统要宣布一些巨额关税。

It was a mostly straightforward manufacturing business until cable starts to hear the rumors in 2025 that president Trump is going to announce some huge tariffs.

你是不是在想，求你了，别关注马来西亚。

Were were you thinking, like, please don't pay attention to Malaysia.

求你了，别关注马来西亚。

Please don't pay attention to Malaysia.

对。

A

百分之百。

100%.

完全正确。

Exactly correct.

确实有很多这种情况。

There was a lot of that.

也许会有例外，比如，我不知道，某种黄色的游戏机。

Maybe there'll be an exception for, I don't know, something yellow game systems.

比如说，我也不太清楚。

Like, I don't know.

我们当时就只能祈祷了。

We were just praying.

可惜啊，关税之神没有回应。

Alas, the tariff gods did not answer.

黄色游戏机也没能幸免。

Yellow video game systems were not spared.

马来西亚也没能幸免。

Malaysia was not spared.

制造一台Play Date大约要花120美元。

It costs about a $120 to make a play date.

凯博说，关税会让这个成本增加10%到20%。

The tariffs were going to increase that cost by 10 to 20%, Cable said.

一开始，我们自行承担了关税。

At first, we ate the tariffs.

有几个月，我们就是觉得，大概大家现在都这样吧。

For a few months, we're just like, I guess this is what everybody is doing.

我也不知道怎么...

I don't know how...

你知道吗，我们只能忍着。

You know, we just gotta we just gotta suffer.

但在吃了大约十万美元的关税之后，他们实在撑不下去了。

But after eating about a $100,000 in tariffs, they simply couldn't make the finances work anymore.

我们觉得这其实是个很糟糕的主意。

We thought this is actually a really bad idea.

这其实是一种税，我们应该在结账时把它作为税项列出来。

What this is as a tax, we should just put it on the checkout as a tax.

就是说，明确地把关税转嫁给顾客，在结账时加一行，写明你要额外付多少钱来覆盖关税。

Like, really explicitly pass that tariff along to the customer as in an additional line item at checkout saying, here's how much extra you owe to cover the tariff.

那个Planet Money听众Choi看到的那一行。

That line item that Planet Money listener, Choi, saw.

关税是14.02美元。

Tariffs at $14.02.

我觉得那个关税费用是一个很小的超链接，Amy要么根本没看到，要么肯定没点它。

I think to that tariff charge was a tiny hyperlink, which Amy, either actually didn't see or she definitely didn't click on it.

她没点。

She didn't click on it.

没有。

No.

好的。

Okay.

所以Panic公司的CEO，嗯哼。

So the CEO of Panic Uh-huh.

为关税那一行写了说明。

Had written an explanation for the tariff line.

哦，亲自写的。

Oh, like, personally.

是的。

Yes.

太长了。

It is so long.

上面写了什么？

What did it say?

好的。

Okay.

我找到了原始说明，让我来一段戏剧性的朗读。

I found the original note, and let me do a dramatic reading.

请吧。

Go ahead.

用你最拿手的肥皂剧腔调。

Give me your best soap opera voice.

好的。

Okay.

再说一遍，Cable Sasser。

Again, cable sasser.

这就是Playdate买家如果在结账时点击关税明细会看到的内容。

And here is what play date buyers could have seen at checkout if they clicked on their tariff line item.

目前，美国海关和边境保护局对我们运到内华达州北拉斯维加斯仓库的每一台Playdate收取19%的关税，因为Playdate是在马来西亚生产的。

As of right now, United States Customs and Border Patrol is billing us 19% for every Playdate we receive at our warehouse in North Las Vegas, Nevada because Playdate is manufactured in Malaysia.

我们Playdate的利润本来就已经很低了。

Our margin on Playdate is already quite low.

我在这里插一句，Cable写的全部内容大声读出来大概要两分钟，但大意就是高端材料、不锈钢关税、非常烦人的情况不断变化等等等等。

So I'll just jump in here to say the entirety of what Cable wrote would take about two minutes to read out loud, but the gist is high end materials, stainless steel tariffs, really annoying situation constantly changing yada yada yada.

这就是

Here is how

这封信的结尾。

the note ends.

顺便说一下，我们很讨厌这样。

Just so you know, we hate this.

我们知道大家手头都不宽裕。

We know money is tight for everyone.

感谢你们的耐心和体谅。

We thank you for your patience and your kind understanding.

我们最大的愿望就是有一天能删掉这个收费项目和这个页面。

Our deepest dream is that we can delete this line item and this page someday soon.

那可真够多的。

That was a lot.

确实不少，但Amy Choi没有点进去看这些内容。

It is a lot, but Amy Choi, didn't click on it and see any of it.

她只看到Panic要收她关税，金额是14.02美元。

All she saw was that panic was gonna charge her for the tariff, and it was $14.02.

我觉得这算是常规操作吧。

I mean, I think it's business as usual.

这足以让你在点击确认之前犹豫一下吗？

Is it enough to make you question to, like, hover for a second before you hit confirm?

说来惭愧，对我来说，不会。

I am ashamed to say, for me, no.

所以艾米买了那个游乐约会。

So Amy buys the play date.

一周后，她到了那里。

One week later, shows up.

哦。

Oh.

哦，它发出……

Oh, it makes...

好的。

Okay.

那就是你展开摇柄时发出的声音。

So that's the sound it makes when you unfurl the crank.

接下来艾米发现，她在玩一种给熊倒根汁啤酒的游戏。

Next thing Amy knows, she's playing root beer in which you pour mugs of root beer for bears.

所以那就是，那个声音

So that's what, that's the sound

就是倒啤酒刚好到线的时候发出的声音。

that it makes when the pour is right at the line.

或者午休的时候，她发现自己玩的是个太空恶魔主题的弹珠机。

Or on lunch break, she finds herself playing a, devil's in space themed pinball.

哦，而且我，

Oh, and I,

直接就从中间掉下去了。

went straight down the middle there.

睡觉前，艾米在给企鹅的酒店里开电梯。

Before bed, Amy's running the elevators at a hotel for penguins.

现在那标志着……

Now that marks...

还是说那是好事？

Or is that a good thing?

我觉得他们挺开心的。

I think they're happy.

因为他们到了他们需要去的楼层。

Because they got to the floor that they needed to go on.

艾米喜欢在PlayStation和Steam Deck上玩电子游戏。

Amy loves video games on PlayStation, on the Steam Deck.

但这是……

But was was this...

这次一起玩，是不是有点不一样？

This play date, was this something different?

就是……

It's just...

摸起来、拿在手里都是一种享受。

It's a joy to touch and hold.

而且我喜欢它随时在身边的这种感觉，即使我很多时候不会把它拿出来。

And I like the idea of it being there for me if I need it, even if I don't take it out a lot of the time.

你知道，我每天开始工作的时候，它都会跟着我到书桌上。

It, you know, it comes to my desk with me when I when I start work for the day.

然后，到了晚上我回到床上，它就在我的床头柜上。

And then, you know, when I'm back in my bed for the evening, you know, it's it's on my bedside table.

艾米已经不再去想她为这次约会付过的关税了。

Amy wasn't even thinking about the tariff she had paid anymore for the play date.

但是，一场关税背叛正在逼近吗？

But was a tariff betrayal looming?

首席大法官先生，敬请法庭准许。

Mister chief justice, and may it please the court.

2025年11月5日，美国最高法院。

11/05/2025, the United States Supreme Court.

这是IEPA，一部国会精心制定的法规，赋予总统处理外国紧急情况的广泛权力，这一点是公认的。

This is IEPA, a statute that congress carefully crafted to grant the president admittedly broad powers to address foreign rising emergencies.

你可能还记得这个。

It's You may remember this.

最高法院被要求对所谓的IEPA关税做出裁决。

The, supreme court was asked to rule on the so called IEPA tariffs.

《国际紧急经济权力法》是一部已有五十年历史的法律，允许总统在国家紧急状态下做一些额外的事情。

The International Emergency Economic Powers Act is a fifty year old law that lets the president do some extra kinds of things during national emergencies.

特朗普总统曾表示，这些额外的事情之一就是关税，这也是他实施许多关税的原因或方式。

Now president Trump had said one of those extra kinds of things was tariffs, and that is why or how he did a lot of the tariffs.

最高法院随后表示，不行。

The supreme court then said, no.

那不在这些额外的事情之列，然后撤销了那些关税。

That is not one of those extra kinds of things, and then undid those tariffs.

然后我们很多人说，等等。

And then lots of us said, wait.

我们一直在为这些IEPA关税买单。

We've all been paying for these IEPA tariffs.

政府会退还他们收取的所有关税钱吗？

Is the government going to give us back all of that tariff money they collected?

我觉得大家都在屏息以待，想看看这到底会是什么样子，但心里也预期可能会一团糟。

I think everybody was just kind of waiting with bated breath to see what this was gonna look like, but with the expectation that it would probably be a mess.

莫琳·索森是美国顶尖的贸易律师之一，因此，她现在差不多成了我们节目的常客。

Maureen Thorson is one of the country's top trade attorneys and, as such, is becoming something of a regular on our show at this point.

莫琳说，一开始没人知道政府收的那些关税钱有没有处理计划。

And initially, Maureen says, no one knew if there was even a plan for what to do with all of that tariff money the government had collected.

政府自己在文件里引用的数字大概在1660亿到1700亿美元之间。

It's somewhere in the 166 to a $170,000,000,000 range is the figure that the government tends to cite in its own filings.

那当时我们有没有预期，每一分钱都能申请退款呢？

And then were we expecting, like, every dollar of that to be eligible for a refund?

嗯，这得看你和谁聊了。

Well, it depends on who you talk to.

现在

Now

我是在跟你说话，玛丽。

I'm talking to you, Marie.

嗯，我是说，贸易律师们其实也没期待什么。

Well, I mean, I don't know that trade lawyers expected anything.

这一切都太新鲜了，我们经常有客户问，这通常是怎么运作的？

All of this was so novel, and we routinely had clients going, well, how does this usually work?

我就说，这里没有通常可言。

And I'm like, there is no usually here.

极其不寻常。

Wildly unusual.

说实话，作为记者，连追踪事情的进展都很难，所以我们才请你们，听众朋友们，分享你们自己的关税退款故事、经历和噩梦。

And, frankly, it's been hard to even track what's been going on as a reporter, which is why we asked you, listeners, for your own tariff refund stories, experiences, nightmares.

很多人联系了我们，我觉得关键信息是，不管你是像Amy Choi那样为游戏机付了14.02美元的关税，还是像我们亲爱的Sarah Gonzalez那样为姐姐的婚礼礼服付了250美元的关税，或者像一位听众兼小企业主那样付了大约18000美元的关税。

And, a lot of you got in touch with us, and I think the takeaway was whether you paid $14.02 on a tariff for a video game system like Amy Choi or you paid a $250 tariff on a dress for your sister's wedding like our dear Sarah Gonzalez did, or maybe you paid around $18,000 in tariffs like one listener and small business owner.

关键信息是，我们很多人根本无法控制自己能否拿回一分钱的关税退款。

The takeaway is that lots and lots of us are not in control of whether or not we will get to see a cent of tariff refunds.

那是因为，一般来说，我们并没有直接在边境支付关税。

And that is because, generally speaking, we did not directly pay tariffs at the borders.

公司先付了关税，然后转嫁给我们，这意味着只有公司才有资格申请退款，而我们呢，只能指望、祈祷、甚至打官司，希望这些公司能把退款也转给我们，就像当初把成本转给我们一样。

Companies paid them and then pass them along to us, which means that it is the companies that are eligible for refunds, and then we, well, we are left to hope, pray, litigate for those companies to also pass those refunds to us like they passed the original costs on to us.

现在我们联系了莫琳·索森，她是为美国一些大公司服务的贸易律师，因为她比我们更直接地看到了这一切。

Now we called Maureen Thorson, trade attorney for some of the nation's biggest companies, because she is seeing this all firsthand better than we can.

从她看到的情况来看，好消息是美国政府在为这些公司建立关税退款系统方面做得非常出色，令人惊讶。

And the good news from what she's seeing is that the US government has been shockingly good at getting a tariff refund system up and running for the companies.

你登录美国海关的数据门户账户，提交一份包含所有报关单号的电子表格，这些是你支付了IEPA关税的条目，然后海关机构在后台处理，验证这些条目，最后把钱退给你。

You go into your data portal account with US customs, submit a spreadsheet of all your entries by entry number on which you paid IEPA duties, and the agency works its magic on the back end, validates those entries, and then refunds your money.

这有点像在公司报销费用。

It's sort of like filing your expenses at your company.

相当简单。

It's fairly simple.

但是，再说一遍，好吧。

But, again Okay.

如果你是公司的进口记录人，那确实相当简单。

If you're a corporate importer of record, it's fairly simple.

当然。

Sure.

真正不简单的，我觉得是其他所有情况，包括公司怎么决定我们中间谁应该拿到那部分退税，以及他们怎么退，这取决于他们当初是怎么把关税转嫁给我们的。

What is not simple at all is, like, I don't know, what I would call everything else, including how a company might figure out who amongst us should get some of that refund money and how they would refund that money, which depends on how they passed along the tariffs in the first place.

所以，莫琳说，我们来看看公司把关税转嫁给消费者消费者的两种主要方式。

So let's look at the two main ways, Maureen says, that companies did pass along tariffs to us consumers.

第一种方式，我们称之为快递公司的情况。

Way number one is what we'll call the the delivery company situation.

这种情况下，是你个人从国外订购了东西。

In this case, you personally ordered something from another country.

你的包裹到了边境，需要有人来付关税。

Your package arrived at the border, and someone needed to pay the tariff.

于是UPS、联邦快递或者DHL，他们先垫付了关税。

And so UPS or FedEx or DHL, they paid the tariffs.

然后快递公司跟你说，你不把钱还给我们，我们就不送货，而且可能还要加上服务费。

And then the delivery company said to you, we're not delivering this until you pay us back for the tariffs, plus service fees probably.

这正好就是我们亲爱的制作人詹姆斯·斯尼德在《关税岁月》第一集里遇到的情况，你可能还记得。

Now this was exactly the situation you may recall our beloved producer James Sneed ran into during our first episode of Days of our Tariffs.

我一开门，他立马就说，我这有你的包裹。

I opened the door, and immediately, he is like, I have this package for you.

我需要你开一张60美元的支票。

I need a check for $60.

对詹姆斯，可能也包括你这位听众来说，好消息是UPS、联邦快递和DHL都在建立系统，把关税退款返还给你们这些客户。

The good news for James and possibly you listener is that UPS and FedEx and DHL are all setting up systems to get their tariff refunds back to you customers.

具体要看是哪家快递公司，但你可能自动就能收到退款。

It depends on the carrier, but you may get that refund automatically.

也可能需要你稍微动动手。

You may have to do a little work.

好的。

Alright.

按下按钮。

Pressing the button.

顺便说一下，制作人詹姆斯上网查了他的退款。

Producer James, by the way, went online to check his refund.

它显示你的……

Says your...

哦，发生了什么？

Oh, what happened?

好的。

Okay.

那有点奇怪。

That was strange.

我收到了一条错误信息。

I got a error message.

退还数百万个包裹和关税是一个相当复杂的过程。

Refunding millions and millions of packages and tariffs is a fairly complicated process.

可能会有些小问题。

May have some kinks.

不过，好吧。

But okay.

这就是快递公司的情况。

That is the delivery company situation.

那其他各种情况呢？

What about all the other kinds of situations?

我们把这些叫做“转嫁”情况，比如游戏制造商、卖衬衫的或者其他什么商家，把产品进口到美国，交了关税，然后卖给我们的时候，要么涨价，要么加一个关税项目，把成本转嫁给我们。

Let's call those the pass along situations where you have a video game maker or a shirt seller or whatever that imports their products into The US, paid their tariffs, and then charged us more when they sold those things to us, either by raising prices or maybe adding a tariff line item.

这个类别我特别想听听贸易律师莫琳·托森的看法。

Now this is the category I really wanted Maureen Thorson, trade attorney's perspective on.

比如说，我们该不该指望这些公司退关税给我们？

Like, should we expect tariff refunds from those companies?

嗯……

Well...

这很难说，因为公司应对关税的方式五花八门。

And it's gonna be difficult because companies reacted to the tariffs in a variety of ways.

有些公司直接涨价，把关税全部转嫁给了消费者。

Some of them raised their prices to cover the entirety of the tariff.

他们把整个关税都转嫁出去了。

They passed the whole tariff forward.

有些公司自己承担了一部分。

Some of them ate part of it.

有些公司一开始自己扛着成本，但后来实在扛不住了。

Some of them ate the cost for a little bit, but then eventually couldn't do that anymore.

我和莫琳花了大约一个小时，一边讨论关税退款，一边进行心理疏导，因为莫琳非常现实。

Maureen and I spent about an hour doing some combination of what I might call tariff refund debate and therapy because Maureen is very realistic.

她了解公司的想法，而我只想把钱要回来。

She knows how companies think, and I I want my money back.

但莫琳说，你可以这样想。

But Marine said, think about it like this.

比如，你去商店买纸巾，发现纸巾公司现在多收了一美元。

Like, you go to the store and you buy maybe paper towels, and you notice that the paper towel company is now charging a dollar more.

对于一家正在涨价的的公司，你怎么能分清消费者在零售货架上看到的某个具体价格上涨，有多少是关税造成的，有多少是供应链整体问题，又有多少是经济中的通货膨胀呢？

For a company that's raising its prices, how do you untangle how much of any specific price increase that a consumer might have seen, you know, on the retail shelf was tariffs versus overall supply chain issues versus inflation in the economy?

比如，你怎么能判断货架上这些纸巾的价格实际上是因为，嘿，

Like, how do you tell that the price of these paper towels on the store shelf is actually like, hey.

这些在过去一年里涨了一美元，而其中正好四分之一是关税导致的。

These went up by a dollar over the past year, and precisely one quarter of that is tariffs.

我的意思是，我确实……

I mean, I do...

在这件事上我非常站在消费者一边。

I'm very pro consumer on this one.

我确实理解物流方面的问题，但事实就是，我多付了钱。

I do understand the logistics problems, but it is like, I overpaid.

然后当问题解决后，我并没有拿回任何多付的钱。

And then when that got straightened out, I didn't I didn't get any of the overpay money back.

这就像，等等。

And that's just like, wait a second.

但你确实拿回了多付的钱，可我还是多付了。

But you did get the overpay money back, but I overpaid.

感觉就像钱给错了人。

It's just like the money's going to the wrong person.

但说真的，公司拿这些钱干什么呢？

But, I mean, realistically, what do companies do with money?

他们把钱给股东。

They give the money to shareholders

还有回购？

and buybacks?

他们要么以分红的形式把钱给股东，要么用这些钱去生产更多、更好的东西，建更多工厂来生产更多东西，等等。

They either they either pay the money out to their shareholders in the form of dividends, or they use the money to make more things, better things, create more factories for making more things, etcetera.

所以他们再投资……

So they reinvest......

股东不是那些买了东西的消费者。

Who aren't the shareholders, the consumers who bought the items.

没错。

Exactly.

从某种角度来说……

In terms of it being...

他们是不是真的完全没办法理清这笔账？

Is it absolutely, like, physically impossible for them to untangle that?

也许不是。

Maybe not.

但那样的话……

But it would be...

我的意思是，到了某个点你就会想，我们花在搞清楚该还给谁5美元上的钱，比每个人那5美元还多。

I mean, at what point are you like, well, we spent more money figuring out who we owed $5 to than was worth each person's $5.

确实。

That's true.

不过话说回来，你可以说，最有可能实现关税退款的情况，就是今天节目里提到的Playdate游戏机那个案例，因为他们每一笔订单都单独列出了关税费用，当然……

That said, you could argue that the best possible conditions for a possible tariff refund is the situation at the center of today's episode with the Playdate video game system because they had individually broken tariff charges out on every single order with, of course

跟你说一下，我们特别讨厌这个。

Just so you know, we hate this.

就是那个CEO写的那篇超长的解释。

That very long CEO written explanation.

那可真够多的。

That was a lot.

Panic的客户大概付了十万美元的关税，理论上这些钱Panic能拿回来。

Panic's customers had paid about a $100,000 in tariffs that Panic would get in refunds theoretically.

而且，你知道，Cabel Sasser，那个CEO说，这么多退款，对他来说，他那只有25个人的小公司，这钱可太多了。

And, you know, cable Sasser, the CEO says that, like, that much refund money, I mean, that is so much for his tiny little 25 person company.

这确实有点分量。

It's it's something.

挺有意义的。

It's meaningful.

所以，没错，我肩膀上就像站着一个小天使和一个小恶魔的卡通形象，它们跟我说，嘿。

And so, yes, there was the, you know, I'm gonna say the little angel and devil cartoon characters on my shoulder, and they were like, hey.

也许人们会忘记。

Maybe maybe people will forget.

也许他们根本不知道你收了关税。

Maybe they won't maybe they won't even know that you charged them a tariff.

然后，你知道，我……

And then, you know, I'm

就像，赶紧离开那里。

like, get out of there.

但那可是十万美元。

But also a 100,000.

那在Panic公司相当于一个人的工资。

That is a salary for someone at Panic.

所以一边肩膀上，有个恶魔在说，嘿。

So on the one shoulder, I got the devil going, hey.

也许你应该留着那些钱。

Maybe you should keep those.

可能，可能……

May may...

也许人们根本不会记得。

Maybe the people won't even remembers.

好吧。

Okay.

现在这

Now that's

有点过分了。

too far.

好吧。

Okay.

可能有点

Maybe gone a

太过分了。

little too far.

你可以走。

You can walk.

不会吧？

Won't?

不会就太过分了。

Won't is too far.

休息之后，就是我们激动人心的结局。

After the break, our thrilling conclusion.

魔鬼是不是藏在我们最好的人心里？

Is the devil in the best of us?

还有，电子游戏行业处理关税退款的方式，可能正好解释了我们即将陷入的这团乱麻。

And how the video game industry approach to tariff refunds may explain the entire mess we're about to get into.

你肯定不想错过。

You won't want to miss it.

本节目由TED播客《Fixable》赞助播出，为你提供可以立即付诸实践的工作建议。

This message comes from the TED podcast Fixable for work advice that you can put into action instantly.