234: The Science of Soviet Training Methods: A look back at the history of getting in shape.

欢迎回来，或者欢迎收听本档教练播客。

Welcome back, or welcome to the on coaching podcast.

我是马格努斯，像往常一样，我的好友兼同事乔纳森·马库斯也一起来了。

I'm Magnus joined as always by my good friend and colleague, Jonathan Marcus.

约翰，最近怎么样，老兄？

John, what's going on, my man?

嘿，没什么大事，史蒂夫。

Man, not much, Steve.

刚回来，就是想给听众们带来他们想看的内容，能做这个真开心。

Just back in our day to give the people what they want and love being able to do it.

那咱们直接开干吧。

So let's let's rip and roll.

没错。

That's right.

这正是我们一直在做的事。

That's what we're all about.

今天咱们聊一个特别有意思的话题。

And we've got a a fascinating one today.

揭秘苏联时期的训练科学，回顾一下健身的历史。

The science of secret Soviet training methods, a look back at the history of getting in shape.

乔恩，咱们直接切入吧，我觉得这话题特别有意思，很期待和你一起探索。

And we're just gonna dive into it, Jon, because I think this is interesting, and I'm excited to go on this exploration and journey with you.

我把你来主讲，因为这次是你深入研究了苏联的训练方法。

I'm gonna turn it over to you because in this partnership here, you are the man who has done the deep dive on the Soviet training methods.

那你就先开个头吧。

So they'll kick us off here.

对。

Yeah.

说到苏联的训练方法，大家第一反应总是药物，觉得肯定是靠药物。

I think the thing about the Soviet training methods, right, everyone will look to, like, the drugs and go, oh, the drugs.

药物。

The drugs.

那些药物。

The drugs.

我们根本没法直接照搬。

We can't apply anything.

得记住，苏联人用的所有增强表现的手段，其实只是加快了身体适应的速度和强度，并没有改变适应的方向。

Like, we just gotta remember, like, all the performance enhancing aids that were used by Soviets, you know, all they did was just accelerate the time horizons and magnitude of adaptation, not necessarily direction.

所以从历史的角度来看，我们可以研究这些秘密训练方法所引导的身体适应方向。

So what we can do from a historical standpoint is look at the direction of adaptation that these secret Soviet methods propagated.

真正厉害的是，我觉得它们更像是一种综合训练模式——做了大量不同的运动项目，但整体设计得很精准，能给运动员带来明确而具体的适应方向。

And that's the cool thing about them is I really call them more mixed modality type training, with that mindset of we're doing a lot of different athletic things, but we're packaging it in a way that gives a really discreet or specific, direction of training adaptation to the athlete in organism where they are.

那这为什么重要呢？

So why is this important?

为什么非得这样设计？

Why is this there?

其实有意思的是，这种训练方式正是‘波动训练’的起源——那种代谢上的灵活性，来自这种有节奏的、所谓的高强度间歇训练，只不过那时候还没这名字。

Actually, the interesting thing is these this is where flux training was born out of, is this idea of kinda this metabolic, flexibility that comes with this pulsating, quote, unquote, what is might be called high intensity interval training, right, in this day and age.

其次，对于初学者运动员，或者已经对某种训练刺激达到适应极限、看似陷入瓶颈的人，引入新的训练方式往往能带来显著突破。

And two, this is also where you can, have a lot of success with beginner athletes or somewhat kind of athletes who have reached their adaptation maximum, to a certain stimulus who just might seem like they're plateauing by introducing novel stimuli in their training model.

事实上，俄罗斯间歇训练法是苏联田径训练体系的核心方法之一。

And, really, what it is, like, Russian intervals is kinda cornerstone of track and field Soviet training methods.

库诺娃就用过这种方法。

Kunova uses them.

彼得·斯内尔，抱歉，是塞布科和彼得·科伊，也都用过。

Peter Snell, sep or excuse me, Sebco and Peter Coe used them.

艾伦·韦伯、斯科特·拉斯基也用过。

Alan Webb, Scott Rasco used them.

约翰·库克、施莱恩·弗拉纳根也都用过。

John Cook, Schlain Flanagan used them.

我也用过。

I used them.

这种方法的好处是，能帮助那些受环境条件限制的教练和运动员突破瓶颈。

And what they do is they allow the coach and athlete who might have, like, a constraint on their environment.

假设你在一个城市中心的跑道上，周围都是高楼大厦，根本没法跑长距离，或者远离训练场地去户外跑。

Let's say you're at a track in the middle of a urban environment, downtown city, what have you, or place where it's just not, you know, conducive to go run all these long miles or whatever off road or away from the practice venue.

在跑道上，哪怕地方很小，甚至在健身房里，你也能通过一些看起来不像跑步的训练，获得同样的代谢刺激或阈值训练效果。

On the track, in a little constrained area, even in a gym, really, you can get this metabolic stimulus or threshold type training stimulus by doing things that don't look like running.

你懂的。

You know?

其实原理特别简单。

And so what is is very simple.

对吧？

Right?

当你看卡诺瓦的训练体系，他在基础阶段称之为一般性准备。

When you look at Canova and his buildup in his general he calls it general prep.

对吧？

Right?

他总说，我们还得回到力量训练上。

He's always we'll talk about we go back to strength.

我们总是得花一个月或六周时间练力量，他甚至拿世界级马拉松选手举例。

We always strength is what we need to do for a month or six weeks, and he's, you know, even talking about world class marathoners.

对吧？

Right?

你看看他设计的力量训练，真是巧妙得很。

And when you look at what he talks about with strength, it's pretty ingenious what he's having them do.

他们在跑道上做一些特别的动作。

They're doing some type of on the track, exercise.

可能是收腹跳。

It could be tuck jumps.

也可能是药球砸地。

It could be medicine ball slams.

或者剪刀跳。

It could be scissor jumps.

又或者是做到力竭的俯卧撑。

It could be push ups to failure.

可能是某种需要大脑快速创造新动作模式的综合运动，用来表达速度、力量和爆发力，然后立刻接上跑步。

It could be some type of general athletic movement that requires a novel solution to be, created by the brain in expressing speed, power, and force, then immediate immediately coupled with running right afterwards.

紧接着就跑。

Right afterwards.

我之所以现在特别想到这个，是因为我最近开始和波特兰州立大学的很多运动员重新回到这种训练方式上——因为这种训练刺激的新颖性，加上我们目前带的这批运动员本身也很有特点。

And the reason this is just top of mind, right, is, you know, I've started to come back to this actually with a lot of the Portland State student athletes, because the novelty of the stimulus and also to the novelty of the athletes that we're working with right now is, like, hey.

我们能在极短的时间内获得非常显著的成效，高效地提升有氧阈值，而且整个过程还能控制得很精准。

We can actually get a lot of bang for our buck in a really, really short time period and get that kind of, you know, aerobic threshold upper, like, you know, threshold type stimulus, but in a very controlled way.

当年苏联人之所以高明，就是他们看懂了这一点：这种训练不仅能快速提升运动员的身体素质和代谢能力，还能增强他们的运动素养，也就是所谓的长期运动员发展——通过丰富运动员的动作模式库，用他们的话说，就是像伯恩斯坦提出的‘通用运动程序’那样，让大脑能调用更多样的动作解决方案，这样在实际比赛中，比如一场艰苦的五公里或马拉松里，他们就能更灵活地应对。

And that's the genius of what these Soviets, did back in the day is they looked at this and they understood this has a really important, acceleration for not only an athlete's physical fitness or metabolic capacity, but also their physical literacy, also their athleticism, if you will, or long term athlete development about creating more flexibility in the athlete's movement schema or, as they say, in in the world of dexterity, right, with Bernstein, their general motor program, GMP, so that then they had more movement solution, literacy availability to them so they could then find in sport in the actual specific thing they're doing, like a long, hard five k, even a marathon.

因为训练时已经提前探索过这些动作，比赛时大脑就能更自如地调动不同的肌纤维。

The brain could then recruit different muscle fibers because they've already explored it in training prior to this.

这正是我们思考训练时最关键的一点。

And that's the key thing when we think about training.

对吧？

Right?

我们希望运动员在训练中去探索不同的动作方式或路径。

We're trying to have the athlete in training at times explore different solutions or different pathways.

因为人类天生就具备这种惊人的适应能力和灵活性，能够为任务创造出全新的解决方法并达成目标。

Because, again, the human condition is when we are, you know, blessed with this amazing adaptability and flexibility to create a novel solution to a task and achieve an outcome.

这一点我们其实很容易看到，随便看看任何一场公路赛或者田径场上的五公里比赛，你会发现每个人的跑步姿势和节奏都不一样，但大家跑得都挺快。

And the way we know this, right, is just look at any road race or any five k on the track and look at all the different running forms and patterns there are, and people will be running, quote, unquote, fast.

就像伦纳德常说的，技术上各有各的风格，但最终的解决方式和结果是一样的。

But there's a different, you know, if you will, style as, like, Leonard used to say with people's technique is it's a matter of style is different, but the solution or the outcome is the same.

他们依然能跑出这个配速。

They still run this pace.

他们依然能完成这个时间。

They still run this time.

他们依然能赢得比赛。

They still win the race.

我们想做的，就是让运动员通过提升动作的灵活性来增加多样性，从而增强他们的运动素养，让这些能力在比赛日真正发挥作用。

And that's what we wanna do is set up the athlete with this idea of creating more novelty through flexibility in their movement solutions so they have more robustness in their physical literacy so it translates on race day.

是的。

Yeah.

太好了，谢谢你分享这些，乔恩。

It's it's so let's I thanks for that, Jon.

我觉得这里有必要说清楚，那些苏联式的训练到底是什么样子，你刚才提到俄罗斯的间歇训练和混合训练，其实已经点到了。

I think I think what would be helpful here is defining kind of what some of these Soviet things look like, and I think you hinted at this with some of the Russian interval training and some of the mixed stuff.

在我看来，你对这个比我还了解，但很多东西用美国的说法就是‘全面发展的运动员’。

And I think to me, again, you have a better knowledge on this than me than me, but a lot of it was what I would classify in the American lingo is a well rounded athlete.

意思是，他们不会只让你跑几英里什么的，

Meaning, you were gonna take not just, hey.

而是有一套系统性的力量和体能训练计划，而且经常和跑步结合起来。

We're gonna go run these miles or whatever have you, but they had a systematic kind of strength and development program that was often integrated into the running.

比如我以前和艾伦·韦伯、斯科特·拉斯基一起训练时，那种训练我们管它叫‘俄罗斯循环’——跑个100米、200米，或者爬个坡，接着就做一组力量练习，

So we get things like, you know, the training that I did with Alan Webb and Scott Rasco for a while, which was what, I believe we called it a Russian circuit actually, where where you you'd, you know, run a 100 meters or 200 or whatever or go up a hill, and then you do some sort of strength exercise.

然后再跑100米，到另一头又做一组力量练习。

And then you'd go run a 100 meters and not the other other end do another strength exercise.

而他们把跑步和力量训练结合得比我们西方人紧密得多，我们往往把这两者分开，或者只做那种纯粹的循环训练——一个力量动作接一个，再接一个。

And you'd mix those that that running and strength component together a lot more so than us in the West, which often keep it kinda separate or just do circuits, which are you know, which have value, but circuits that are just, like, one strength exercise to the next to the next to the next.

根据我对一些旧苏联文献的了解，这种耐力和力量的融合，才是关键和根本所在。

And from my leading reading of some of the old Russian Soviet literature is this kind of integration and combination of, like, endurance ability plus strength, you know, was was key and fundamental.

我觉得这一点，其实也能联系到我们平时的整个训练体系。

And I think you saw this, you know, just to tie it to, you know, the rest of training.

你看卡诺瓦的山坡训练就是个例子，他会让运动员跑山坡，做各种跳跃、深蹲跳，比如先以一万米配速跑200米，接着做10个深蹲跳，再以五千米配速跑100米，然后来25个开合跳之类的。

You see this in Canova circuits where he does hill circuits, where he uses various bounds and jumps and squat jumps and exercises running uphill where it could be run 200 meters at at 10 k place and then, you know, 10 squat jumps and then a 100 meters at five k pace and then, you know, 25 jumping jacks or whatever it is.

这种形式，其实就是从苏联式的循环训练演变来的。

Like, that's a variation taken from kind of this Russian circuit.

希尔的山坡训练也是一样，只是程度上略有不同。

You saw the same to a a different degree with Hill Hill circuits.

对吧？

Right?

那具体是怎么做的？

What what were they?

比如，各种跨步、短跑、轻松跑和下坡快跑的组合。

Like, variations of of bounds and and sprints and easy running and then fast running downhill.

如果你去YouTube搜‘线性跨步’，发现它们并不是我们通常以为的、尽可能跳得远的那种弹跳，而更像是一种上下爆发式的训练，侧重力量，尤其是提升反应力和爆发力。

And if if you go YouTube linear bounds, they're not kind of the get as far as you can, you know, bounce that we think of, but they're more kind of, like, up and down explosive exercises that are more strength orientated, especially for kind of the reactivity and plyometric Yeah.

这种训练方式属于力量训练的一部分。

Component.

不是的。

No.

这非常关键。

It's it's it's super important.

对吧？

Right?

这其实就是我们用来支持和定义普通耐力或速度耐力训练的科学原理。

Like, this is still the science of this is the exact same science we use to justify and define what we're doing in typical endurance or speed endurance training.

对吧？

Right?

这又回到了适应性的问题上。

And it comes back again to flux.

对吧？

Right?

代谢适应性。

Metabolic flexibility.

我举个具体的例子。

So I'll give a concrete example.

昨天，我正在帮波特兰州立大学一位800米跑者训练。

Yesterday, you know, I was working with a, budding for 800 meter runner, on the Portland State team.

我们让这位运动员先做了所谓的‘长距离节奏跑’——这是短跑训练里常提到的，接着又做了俄罗斯间歇训练。

And so we had, this athlete do essentially a extensive tempo, right, as they call it for, in sprint, literature, and then also a Russian, interval, session.

这两项训练是连着做的。

And this was in, you know, in sequence.

那场长距离节奏跑，其实就是适应性训练。

So the extensive tempo, right, was just flux training.

就是200米、100米，重复三次。

It was 200, 100 times three.

所以是200米、100米、200米、100米、200米、100米，速度保持在400米配速的75%左右。

So 200, 100, 200, 100, 200, 100 at, 75% of their 400 meter pace.

对吧？

Right?

他们跑得不算快，大概37、36秒的样子，然后每组之间休息或慢走75秒。

So, you know, they're running not so fast, about 37, 36 or so, and then taking seventy five seconds standing break or walk break in between.

但这么一来，总量就累积起来了。

But it starts to add up.

对吧？

Right?

乳酸开始堆积，因为75秒的休息时间，哪怕100米跑18秒、200米跑36秒，重复好几轮，身体根本来不及恢复。

The lactate starts to accumulate because seventy five seconds, even going for, you know, eighteen second 100 followed by, you know, thirty six second 200, you start to roll that over multiple times.

对吧？

Right?

乳酸开始堆积了。

The elaxate starts to accumulate.

他们喘得特别厉害。

They're breathing hard and heavy.

这对跑800米的选手来说，正好是阈值强度的刺激。

They're getting a threshold type stimulus for an eight, for eight type runner.

所以我们做两组这样的训练。

So we do two sets of that.

接下来我们做俄罗斯间歇训练：先做一组实心球动作，然后以400米配速的75%再跑100米，也就是18秒左右，接着做10次跳跃练习——比如收腹跳、剪刀跳、深蹲跳之类的，再跑回来。

And then what we do is we do a Russian interval, which is essentially do a med ball activity, then run a 100 meters again at still 75% of your four meter pace, so still 18, then do kind of a a jumps, activity, tuck jumps, scissor jumps, you know, squat jumps, what have you, and then for 10 reps, and then run back.

整个过程是连贯不断的。

And so it's continuous.

实心球动作，跑100米，然后做10次跳跃练习。

It's med ball activity, run a 100 meters, jumping activity for 10 reps.

再跑100米回来，接着再做10次实心球动作。

Run a 100 meters, come back, med ball activity for 10 reps.

跑一百米，来回反复地跑。

Run a 100 meters, back and forth, back and forth.

运动员就这么练。

So the athlete does this.

对吧？

Right?

你一听就觉得这太疯狂了，简直不可思议。

And you go, that's crazy, insane.

听着像CrossFit的训练。

It sounds like CrossFit training.

你这是在搞什么名堂？

What are you doing?

肌肉迷惑法。

Muscle confusion.

但你算算时间，这种持续运动、混合模式的训练——跑一段，接着做力量输出动作，再跑一段，总共持续将近五分半钟。

But when you look at the time it takes to go do the activity where there's continuous movement, but it's mixed modality, run, and then some type of force output activity, sandwiched in between it, it's about five and a half minutes of continuous work.

我不确定。

I don't know.

听起来跟我刚才说的完全一样，就是说，嘿。

That sounds to me a lot exactly the same, like saying, hey.

我希望你以某个强度跑一英里，中间休息多久，都定好。

I want you to do a mile at x intensity for, you know, and with x y z rest.

对吧？

Right?

结果其实就是这么回事。

And that's what it ends up being.

别忘了，身体是按时间尺度来解读刺激的。

Because remember, the body interprets stimulus on time horizons.

所以我们这个五分半钟的时间段，跟反复跑一英里的刺激量和强度很接近。

So we have this time horizon of five and a half minutes, which is a very similar dose and hit to repeat miles.

我们西方人太习惯把距离和代谢刺激绑在一起了，而不是把活动时长和代谢刺激挂钩，这让我们一开始容易看走眼。

We're just so conditioned, right, in the West and thinking in terms of, a a distance wedded to a metabolic stimulus versus a time duration of activity wedded to a metabolic stimulus that fools us at first glance.

但它的效果非常强，也很有效。

But it's very potent and very effective.

我想插一句，这个观点不只是乔恩提出的，雷纳托·卡诺瓦本人也这么说过。

So I just wanna interject here because that point is made not just by Jon, but Renato Canova himself.

我刚调出了卡诺瓦的训练循环，如果你感兴趣，可以在《跑步学者计划》里找到。

So I just pulled up, the Canova circuits, which you can find in this in the running Scholar Program if you're interested.

我们这里有全套资料，都解释得清清楚楚，而且都是卡诺瓦本人的原始文件。

We've got it all, explained it all, but documents from Canova himself.

他在这些训练循环中关注的是什么？

What is he looking at in these circuits?

每个循环的时长都标在了下面。

The duration of the circuit is listed under each one.

对吧？

Right?

你可以看到，它们被用来实现不同的训练目标。

And you can see they they're used for different reasons.

比如，一个特定的力量耐力训练循环。

So for example, a, specific strength endurance circuit.

他希望达到什么效果？

What's he want?

他希望这个循环持续六分四十五秒，这到底意味着什么？

He wants the circuit to be about six minutes and forty five seconds, which which, you know, is what?

就是这种刺激效果。

That stimulus.

如果你想要一个高强度的力量耐力循环，两次之间的时长应该是多少？大概是两分十五秒到三分钟之间吧？

If you wanted, for example, a, high intensity strength endurance circuit, what's the duration between two, yeah, two minutes and fifteen seconds and three minutes?

他关注的就是这些细节。

Like, that's that is what he's looking at and seeing.

然后他会说，把这个动作重复四到六次，或者短一点的就做八到十次，看情况而定。

And then he says, you know, repeat this four to six times or the shorter one, eight to 10 times or whatever it is.

你得从耐力训练的角度来看待它，就像普通的训练一样，但举个例子，在这个高强度力量循环中，实际的目的是什么？

You're looking at it through the lens like we would an endurant like a workout even though, again, to give you an example, during this, you know, high intensity strength circuit, what is it?

20次快速膝屈，100米中等速度跑步，10次全力深蹲跳，50米慢跑，40米全力大步跳，50米慢跑，20秒超快跳绳，20秒慢跑，80米全力冲刺。

20 fast knee bends, 100 meter moderate running, 10 squat jumps at max intensity, 50 meters slow, 40 meters very fast bounding, 50 meters slow, twenty minute or twenty seconds skipping very fast, twenty seconds slow running, 80 meters sprinting max speed.

所以你看，这又是一个力量和爆发力元素结合跑步的混合训练。

So you've got this, again, this mix of higher, strength components or power components combined with, you know, running.

对。

Yeah.

这其实又回到了身体素养这个概念。

It's you know, go back to, like, physical literacy.

对吧？

Right?

不一定非得动作标准完美。

Like, it doesn't need to be perfect form.

很多动作都是靠自重完成的基本动作模式。

A lot of the stuff is with, like, body weight type movement pattern.

归根结底，这种训练覆盖的方面太多了。

At the end of the day, it's it hits so many boxes.

这能很好地活动关节，尤其是髋关节、膝关节和踝关节的活动范围。很多长跑运动员都存在这些问题，因为长期慢跑导致这些关节活动受限，运动幅度太小。

It's it hits kinda like joint range of motion, you know, making sure that joint excursion in the hips and the knees and even the ankles, right, which a lot of distance runners suffer from is limited mobility or flexibility in those joints because the repeated just motion of, you know, short range of motion of a running, you know, at slow paces.

所以这种训练能改善这个问题，非常好。

So it cleans that up, which is great.

当你观察运动员做这些动作时，就能直接看出他们的身体素养水平。

Then also too, like, it you as you watch the athlete do these things, they express to you their degree of physical literacy.

而且整个过程是安全的。

And but it's in a safe manner.

对吧？

Right?

我们说的是每项动作做10次，全力以赴就行。

We're talking 10 reps at max.

不是那种高强度、接近乳酸阈值的疯狂循环训练。

We're not talking, like, lots of wild and crazy things here with kind of more of that upper lactate threshold design circuit.

我来举个例子，俄罗斯间歇训练的超高强度版本，这个源自前标枪运动员利廷诺夫。

Now I'll give an example of kind of a super high intensity circuit of the Russian interval, which comes from the, former discus thrower, Lytinoff.

还有，我们播客的朋友丹·约翰，是他让我接触到这些训练的。

And Dan, our friend of the podcast, Dan John, he's the one who turned me on to these.

对他来说，他发现了一种他称之为‘管他呢效应’的东西——作为投掷运动员，他对利廷诺夫训练的理解就是做10次壶铃摆动，然后立刻冲刺40米。

You know, for him, he found kinda call what he calls, like, what the hell effects where, you know, as a thrower, you know, his interpretation of a Litinoff drill was to do 10 kettlebell swings and then immediately do a 40 meter sprint.

对吧？

Right?

作为投掷运动员，他这么练完，直接就惊了。

And as a thrower, he's doing this, and he's like, woah.

我的意思是，这种训练带来很多普遍的好处，比如增加肌肉量，刺激内分泌系统，整个人就是感觉状态更好了。

I mean, all this, like, general benefit of increasing muscle mass, you know, more endocrine hit where, like, I just feel better.

恢复得也更快。

I recover quicker.

早上起来没那么累。

I'm not as, like, tired in the morning.

这些正面效果，一层层地往下渗透。

You know, all these positive effects down the food chain.

这是我们在波特兰州立大学普通训练日的另一个例子，属于那种常规安排。

So here is another example of what we did on a general day, and this is a general day, that we have at Portland State.

不管是投掷运动员、中距离跑者，还是短跑选手，都会做这套动作，这其实是个很短、很克制的乳酸负荷训练，同时神经肌肉要求也不算太高。

And so I have throwers doing this, middle distance runners doing this, you know, sprinters doing this, and this is just kind of a a very discreet short little, kinda upper limit, lactate hit, but also with a high neuromuscular demand, but not too high.

对吧？

Right?

那具体是怎么做的呢？

So what does it look like?

就是这样的。

Well, it looks like this.

先做八个药球深蹲抛跳，就在田径场或跑道上，紧接着马上冲刺40米。

You're doing eight squat toss jumps with a medicine ball, right, you know, on the field or the track, and then you're doing 40 meter sprint out immediately from that.

你做完八个动作后，立刻冲刺40米。

So you do your eight forty meter sprint out.

这种安排能产生后激活增强效应，也就是PAP，简单说就是A动作能提升B动作的效果。

What that has is a a post activation potentiation effect, PAP, where the thing that drug a, right, makes drug b more potent.

所以这些深蹲抛跳动作比较基础，能让后面的冲刺更有效，因为大脑在那一刻被激活，达到了更高的神经输出水平。

So the squat toss jumps, that's more general, makes them the sprints more potent because, again, the brain has been accommodated or activated to a higher neural output in that discrete moment.

接着是全力后退跑二十米。

And then it's a 20 meter back pedal as fast as you can.

对吧？

Right?

这算一个小循环，但现在你要计时。

So this is like a a little circuit, but now you check the time on it.

对吧？

Right?

整个过程花了多长时间？

How how much time's eclipsing?

男性大概三十五秒左右。

Well, for the men, about thirty five seconds.

女性大概四十秒左右。

For the women, about forty seconds.

我们在这三个连续的动作中，都是全力以赴的。

And we're going at, you know, a 100% on on these three kind of sequential, exercises.

我也不确定。

I don't know.

如果我们再来看一下无氧系统的持续时间，也就是所谓的无氧阈值区间。

Like, if we look at, again, time horizons of the, quote, unquote, anaerobic, you know, threshold or, quote, unquote, you know, the anaerobic system.

对吧？

Right?

大概是四十五秒。

It's forty five seconds.

所以我们正好打在这个区间里。

So we're hitting.

对吧？

Right?

我们正在动用糖酵解系统。

We're going through glycolysis.

我们正在消耗肌酸，或者说是在利用磷酸肌酸供能。

We're going through creatine, or we're going through, you know, CP output.

我们直接冲向那45秒的无氧阈值，也就是无氧系统的工作极限，还没来得及过多转向有氧系统的参与。

Like, we're going right to that forty five second anaerobic, you know, threshold for the anaerobic system before we start to, you know, translate too much over to, you know, engagement of the aerobic system.

然后我们休息的时间和运动时间基本一样长。

And then we're taking about equal rest.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们休息45秒，这样能让大约一半的磷酸肌酸重新合成，这个过程我们重复五次。

So we're taking forty five seconds rest, which gives you about, you know, roughly 50% of your creatine phosphate CP source to be resynthesized, and we're doing that five times.

对吧？

Right?

现在你来算算总共花了多少时间。

So now we're doing you know, you do the math on that.

90秒乘以5次。

It's ninety seconds times five.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们有大约七分半钟的高强度刺激，这不仅在代谢层面带来冲击，提升代谢阈值或代谢灵活性，还能同时增强神经输出，提升速度、力量、协调性，以及应对疲劳的协调能力。

And so we have about seven, seven and a half good minutes of just a higher intensity stimulus that produces not only a metabolic hit in a threshold or metabolic flexibility or flux type way, but also too compounds it with the, neural output for speed power and also just coordination and then coordination or fatigue.

你提到这种高强度训练时，我还想补充一点，我记得卡诺瓦说过，其他人也提到过，这确实是进入无氧训练的一个绝佳切入点。

You you know, one other thing that I wanna point out as you talk about this high intensity stuff is, I believe Canova made this point and others have too, but this is a great introduction to kinda some of that anaerobic stuff.

其中一个原因是，我们常常以为——

And one of the reasons why is often we think, like, okay.

莉迪亚和我们也提过这一点。

When we and Lydia had pointed this out as well.

当我们去跑道上开始做高强度的所谓无氧间歇训练时，其实会改变体内的平衡。

It's like when we go to the track and we start hammering high intensity, unquote, anaerobic intervals, like, it it shifts the balance.

我们的有氧系统会受到一定影响。

Our aerobic system kinda, you know, takes a takes a little bit of hit.

有时候，我们确实会失去一部分这种能力。

Sometimes we we lose some of that ability.

但通过这种力量训练的方式来做，不会对有氧系统造成那么大的负面影响。

But what what doing this through this kind of strength modality does is it doesn't have that big, like, negative effect on the aerobic system.

原因嘛，咱们先简化一下说法，我管它叫非特异性乳酸训练。

And the reason is is is, again, we're gonna simplify here, but I like to call it nonspecific lactate work.

什么意思呢？就像卡诺瓦也提到过的，因为我们用了不同的肌肉和肌纤维，加入了力量成分，情况就不一样了。对吧？我们不是在跑步时特定的肌肉和区域里制造高酸度环境，堆积大量氢离子，所以不会像那样冲击到那些特定肌肉里的有氧能力和有氧酶。

Meaning, like again, and Canova talks about this as well, but meaning that, like, because we're getting we're utilizing different muscles and muscle fibers because we're bringing the strength component in, which changes things, right, we're not just kind of, like, creating a high acidity environment with lots of hydrogen ions in the specific areas and muscles that we use for running so you don't have that, like, hit on there kind of a, like, aerobic ability, aerobic enzymes in the specific muscles as well.

相反，你会产生一种更混合的、非特异性的酸中毒状态，这反而帮到了你的身体，因为身体被迫去适应，好吧。

Instead, you get kind of more of a blended nonspecific kind of, acidosis that occurs, which then, like, helps your body because you're forced to figure out, okay.

那我们该怎么应对这种情况呢？

How do we do deal with this?

我们知道身体会把这些乳酸转运走，起到缓冲作用，还能把一部分乳酸输送到其他地方去利用。

And we know that we kinda shuttle it off and, like, buffer some of it, shuttle it off some of the lactate to be utilized elsewhere.

所以这真是个特别好的入门介绍。

So it's this wonderful, like, introduction.

同样的道理也适用于坡道训练，只是程度轻一些。这也是为什么几十年来运动员们都意识到，坡道其实是伪装起来的速度训练，因为它通常不会像单纯在跑道上狂刷间歇跑那样带来那么多负面影响。

And the same to a lesser degree applies to Hill's, which is why for decades, you know, athletes have realized that hills are speed work in disguise in the sense that they don't often come with some of the, you know, downsides that just hammering out intervals on the track do.

你可以在所谓的基础训练阶段进行快速上坡训练。

You're able to do fast hill work in the, quote, unquote, base phase.

对吧？

Right?

这就是为什么莉迪亚在耐力训练刚结束不久，就早早引入了这些上坡训练。

This is why Lydia introduced this stuff early on in the hills hills and, you know, the right after his heavy endurance phase.

我觉得这是个特别好的例子，说明了——

And I think this is one of these great examples of, like, hey.

如果你在打基础、提升有氧能力的同时，加入一些高强度的循环训练，不会像一开始就猛练200米间歇那样对身体造成太大负担。

If you can use some of these higher intensity circuits, while you're still building that kind of, like, aerobic or that foundation, it's not gonna take that hit as if we started hammering out 200 meter repeats early on.

我觉得这真是个特别有用的技巧，能让后续的过渡更顺畅，等你真要开始练200米、150米、500米、300米这些高强度、高酸度的冲刺时，身体已经准备好了，而且之前的有氧基础也没丢。

And and I think that's such a powerful, you know, tool to have in your tool bag because it makes the transition easier when you do get to the point where, hey.

而且你身体已经更适应这种环境了，基础依然还在，没有被磨掉。

We gotta run some two hundreds, one fifties, two fifties, three hundreds, whatever really fast in high acidity, and your body's kinda more prepared for it and still has that that kinda foundation behind it that you haven't kinda degraded away.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是极化训练法的问题所在。

And that's this is where polarization polarized training methodology fails.

必须指出的是，极化训练对新手、初学者，甚至中级运动员都不太适用。

And it's important to call out, right, that polarized training fails the novice or, you know, beginner or even the intermediate athlete.

对吧？

Right?

我们所知道的关于极化训练的所有研究，包括史蒂夫和学者们的成果，都是基于顶尖精英运动员的，那些已经站在运动巅峰的人，他们早就完成了基础阶段的训练，打好了底子。

Polarized training and all the literature we know from Steve and Scholar's work and everything about it was done on high end elites, high end elites who are, like, at the apex of sport, who have already gone through the, if you will, general, you know, education, physical education to get to where they are.

你可以这么想：

Think of it like this.

就像一个人需要接受通识教育，接触各种历史和观点，才能获得更全面的根基。

Like, people who need a liberal arts education to have diversity exposure to a lot of different historical things and perspectives.

有了这个扎实的底子，之后再专攻某一领域才更有效。

It gives you more well rounded foundation from which then to specialize.

对吧？

Right?

关于极化训练的炒作，我们之前也讨论过，问题在于大家都误以为可以直接跳到专项训练。

The the hype between polar polarized training, which we've talked about before, is simply that everyone's interpreting the interpretation has been, oh, and you go right to specialization.

但我们都清楚，这绝对不是运动员发展早期该做的事，得等到后期才行。

And we all know that's that's not you like, you don't do that until way later in the athlete's development profile.

对。

Yes.

它确实有效。

It does work.

极化训练对初学者和中级运动员有效，但你其实是在给他们设限，因为过早转向专项训练，就剥夺了他们发展全面体能的机会。

Training works for beginners and novice and intermediates, but you end up putting a ceiling or a limit on them because you've limited the general physical literacy because you went to write polarized or highly specialized training right away.

这种训练方式容易上手，听着也时髦，还符合二八法则这类直觉性道理，听起来挺有道理。

Now it's easy to implement, and it's sexy, and it makes sense, you know, the heuristic of the eighty twenty rule, all that good stuff.

但作为教练，我们真的得想清楚。

But as a coach, we really need to you know?

这方面他经常提到。

And talks about this a lot.

他经常强调的一个观点是，我们得重新回到做身体教育者的角色上，也就是说，要告诉运动员们。

That's one of his soapboxes he gets on quite frequently is we need to go back to being educators of the physical where saying, hey.

注意看。

Look.

在训练的初期阶段，也就是总体准备期或赛前准备期，我们得多做些混合模式的训练，或者我常说的俄式间歇训练，配上各种循环练习。

We're gonna do a lot of these mixed modality things or, as I call them, or Russian style interval things with these circuits and this and that early on in the general or pre preparation, pre competition before the peaking phase of your training.

而且整个训练周期里，都可以保留一点这种元素，就像史蒂夫说的‘永远不减’。

And you can even, like, keep a little bit of that spice in the whole time, right, with Steve's heuristic of never subtract.

对吧？

Right?

要不断叠加，让训练逐渐转入维持模式，而不是突然中断。

Always be adding, where it goes into more maintenance mode for your athletes.

只要像我之前说的那样，合理调整，效果会很好。

And it's manipulated correctly as, you know, I discussed earlier.

甚至在所谓的恢复日，也可以用这种方式。

It can even be used on, quote, unquote, restoration recovery days.

对吧？

Right?

在恢复日里，我们其实希望有一点乳酸生成，因为我们知道乳酸的作用。

Because one of the key things we actually do want in restoration recovery days is a little bit of lactate generation because we know lactate.

这就是为什么我刚才插一句，为什么长时间的等长保持是有道理的——因为研究清楚地表明，只要方式得当，乳酸的产生确实有促进恢复的效果。

And this is why I say the, you know, little tangent here why isometric long isometric holds can make sense and do make sense is because the literature demonstrates very provocatively and succinctly that lactate expression has a restorative and recovery benefit when produced in the right way.

对吧？

Right?

这正是我们想要的。

And so this is what we want.

我们要的是乳酸生成，但不要伴随严重的酸中毒。

We want a lactate expression without excessive acidosis.

乳酸生成时总会有一点酸中毒，但我们不想像长距离跑或长时间阈值训练那样叠加累积，那种方式在现在的耐力跑训练里太常见了。

You will always get some acidosis with lactate expression, but we don't wanna stack it and compound it like in a long temple run or long, you know, threshold training sessions, right, that are really classic in the distance running literature and practice these days.

但我们可以用少量、有节奏的介入，让代谢波动起来，就像我刚才说的。

But small interjections with enough pulse or fluctuation, right, coming back to metabolic.

这正是代谢波动或波动式训练的核心——学会在产生适量乳酸和轻微酸性环境之间制造节奏，再给身体一点时间让乳酸被清除。

Because that's really the heart of what metabolic flux or flux style training is all about, is understanding how to create this pulsation between lactate expression with just enough acidosis, then how allowing a little bit of time for that clearance to happen.

再次强调，乳酸产生之后要给清除留出空间。

Again, lactate express clearance to happen.

乳酸产生后，要让清除过程自然发生。

Lactate expression clearance to happen.

如果你经常这样训练，身体就会逐渐适应，乳酸的消耗变得更局部化，形成一种缓冲效应，乳酸不再大量进入血液、扩散到全身。

And if you practice that with a lot of regularity, then you get to a spot where it becomes more localized with that lactate consumption, and it starts to be a buffering expect or effect where it's not slipping into the bloodstream and going more global.

乳酸会停留在肌肉组织内部，那里的线粒体可以直接把它当燃料消耗掉，而不需要把它转运到身体其他地方去利用。

It stays in the muscle tissue or in the muscle belly locally, and the mitochondria there are able to consume it and use it for fuel right then and there versus having to shunt it and go into a shuttle where it has to go somewhere else in the body to be used.

同时，那些具有腐蚀性的代谢废物也会被局限在局部，因为线粒体本质上是细胞的回收中心。

And then with that, also too, the co consumption of, say, the corrosive, metabolites stays localized as well because we know mitochondria are basically the recycling center of cells of the body.

所以线粒体越多，你越不容易觉得累。

So the more of those you got, the, quote, unquote, less tired you get.

对吧？

Right?

因为疲劳其实是那些代谢物在体内、在大脑中循环，然后向大脑发出信号：喂。

Because fatigue is wedded to those metabolites going around into the body and the brain and then signaling to their brain, hey.

慢点。

Slow down.

喂。

Hey.

停下。

Stop.

你这是要我们的命。

You're gonna kill us.

我们不想再继续了。

We don't wanna do this anymore.

这就是为什么这种方法有效。

And this is why that stuff works.

而且实施起来特别简单，因为它本身就很直接，但对耐力型教练来说，这要求你更用心地思考，更谨慎地规划训练方案。

And it's it's so easy because to implement because it's so simple, but what it requires for the distance oriented coach is it requires you, one, to think a little harder and be more, deliberate with, you know, your practice plan.

其次，你要明白，科学安排的训练本身就有价值，而不是非得盯着总里程数。

And then two, understand that there is value to training dosed in an intelligent way that's not wedded to a mileage accumulation number.

我的意思是，你该怎么算呢？

I mean, how do you count okay.

我们之前用过俄罗斯式的间歇训练，就是那个跑400和800米的运动员。

We did this Russian style interval, right, with this 400, 800 meter runner.

没错，里面确实跑了800米，但你想想，还有别的东西吧？

And, yeah, there was 800 meters of running in there, but then there was also you know?

每100米只用18秒，对吧？

And that's only eighteen seconds, right, for each each 100.

另外还有15到20秒的力量训练。

And then there's also another fifteen to twenty seconds of some strength activity.

那这15到20秒的力量训练，和100米跑的时间一样长，这该怎么算进里程里？

Well, how how do you count mileage of that fifteen to twenty seconds of the strength activity that's the same duration of time as that 100 meter run?

根本没法算。

You can't.

你根本不用算。

You don't.

但身体很清楚，它已经高强度工作了五分半钟。

But the body just knows it's working hard for five and a half minutes.

所以它的效果和价值，完全不亚于那种简单的说法——‘教练，我跑了一英里了’。

So it has just as much effect and value as, say, the easy way to say, oh, I got a mile in, coach.

整个过程花了五分半钟。

It took five and a half minutes.

作为教练，我们得更敏锐一点，别以为所有对中长跑训练有价值的环节，都非得靠GPS或计时器来衡量。

You know, that's where we have to be a little bit more, as coaches, sensitive to not everything that has value in training, especially for middle distance and distance runners, needs to be tracked by the GPS on the stopwatch.

其实还有其他更有效的方式可以衡量。

It can be tracked in other ways that are a little bit more potent.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

另外，既然你提到了极化训练和心率区间这些，我想顺便说点别的。

And, you know, one thing I'm I'm gonna go off on a little tangent here since you mentioned the polarized and the zone stuff.

我觉得，正如你提到的，极化模型和分区模型在这里其实有点帮不上忙，因为这类训练确实很难归类。

I think that this is one place, as you pointed out, where the polarized model actually in the zone based model actually fails us because it's hard to classify this stuff as you pointed out.

而且我觉得问题还在于，这些变化并没有被累积起来。

And I think this also what happens is we we can't there's variations that aren't accumulated.

如果我们只看心率、乳酸或者别的指标，就会简单地把它归为‘高强度训练’。

Because if we just go off heart rate or even lactate or whatever, we just throw this into, oh, it's high intensity work.

比如，这段时间里你的心率直接飙到顶了，对吧？

Like, you know, our heart rate is through the roof for this two minutes during this stuff.

但事实上，每个人在这种训练中的实际反应都不一样，跟去跑道上固定配速做一组组间歇，根本不是一回事。

But, like, the individual variation on what is actually happening here make it different from going to the track and doing, you know, different enough from going to the track and just hammering out, you know, these intervals at the same length.

我觉得在看分区训练的时候，情况也是一样的。

I think it's the same when we look at zone training.

前几天我翻了下那些分区标准，还有类似的东西。

I was looking the other day, and I was looking at the zones and and stuff like that.

上面说，最高强度那一档，比如RPE达到19/20的时候，标注的就是‘全力冲刺’。

And it said at the highest intensity where it was, like, you know, 19 out of 20 RPE or whatever, it said sprinting all out.

我当时心里就想，确实如此。

And I thought to myself, yeah.

但如果你做冲刺，没错，确实是全力跑，但努力程度并不真是19或20。

But if you do sprints, yes, they're all out, but the effort is not a 19 or 20.

比如我到跑道上做50米冲刺，中间充分休息，我的努力程度根本达不到19或20。

Like, if I go down to the track and I I do a 50 meter sprint with full recovery, I'm not at a 19 or 20 RPE.

我其实挺放松的，因为放松的时候跑得更快，而且全力冲刺和竭尽全力是两回事。

Like, I'm pretty relaxed because, like, a, I run faster when I'm relaxed, but, like, giving max intensity is different from giving max effort.

对吧？

Right?

但在心率区间模型里，这些通常都被混在一起了。

But in the zone generally, the zone model, like, they get lumped together in there.

我觉得同样的问题也出现在我们看循环训练、坡道训练，或者其他类似项目的时候。

And I think the same thing here is when we look at circuits, hills, variations of these kinds.

有时候我们一不小心就把所有这些都一股脑儿塞进同一个区间里了。

We make a mistake sometimes when we just throw it all into the zone.

顺着刚才这个话题，我还想提一点，回想起俄勒冈时代比尔·鲍尔曼和比尔·迪林杰的时候，他们除了著名的‘难易交替’训练法，还以俄勒冈循环训练闻名，那这种训练方式到底是从哪儿来的呢？

And the the other comment I'd have here coming off that tangent is if you look back to, you know, the Oregon days of Bill Bowerman and Bill Dillinger, what did they what were they famous for as well as, like, the HardEasy is they had these Oregon circuits, which were essentially where did they get this?

我觉得应该是源自俄罗斯的循环训练理念。

From, like, the Russian, like, circuit ideas, I believe.

因为鲍尔曼当时就想，我从这种线性训练里拿一点，再从那边借鉴一点。

Because Bowerman was like, oh, I'm gonna take a little of this linear and get this from here.

再从这边吸收一点。

I'm gonna get a little from from this over here.

当年循环训练确实火过一阵，但后来我们渐渐把那些东西给忘了，干脆丢到一边去了。

And and back in the day, like, the circuit training kinda took off, but we kinda, like, forgot some of that and and just kinda put it by the wayside.

如果你看看你提到的彼得·科，他确实把这类循环训练重新带了回来，用在塞巴斯蒂安和其他他指导的运动员身上。

And if you look at, you know, if you look at, as you mentioned, Peter Coe, he was someone who brought in some of these circuit trainings back into the into the fold for, Sebastian and other athletes that he coached.

我觉得我们之所以吃亏，部分原因是因为这种训练方式很难归类。

And I think we do ourselves a disservice partly because it's hard to classify.

我再举个例子，我知道我扯得有点远，但另一个被我们遗忘的例子，跟俄勒冈时期的鲍尔曼有关，我相信你一定记得这个。

And another example I'll give I know I'm going all over here, but another example I'll give is another thing that went by the wayside thinking of Bowerman in Oregon is, you know, I'm sure you remember this.

如果你回头看看他们的训练记录，他们会做些这样的事，比如跑几个300米间歇，然后接着跑上八英里。

If you go back and look at some of their logs, they do things like, I don't know, run 300 meter repeats and then go for, like, an eight mile run.

对。

Yes.

接着再回来，又跑几组300米间歇。

And then and then come back and run 300 meter repeats again.

从现在的角度来看，你看到这种安排，肯定会想——

And from a modern view, you're looking at that, and you're like,

这到底是什么玩意儿？

what the hell?

这训练方式到底算什么？

What the hell is this?

但我们之所以觉得不可思议，是因为这种训练很难归类，我觉得。

But the reason we say what the hell is because we can't classify it easily, I think.

我也这么认为。

I think so too.