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欢迎回到《教练之道》播客的又一期节目。
And welcome back to another episode of the On Coaching podcast.
我是史蒂夫·马格努斯，像往常一样，我的好友兼同事乔纳森·马库斯也一起来了。
I'm Steve Magnus joined as always by my good friend and colleague, Jonathan Marcus.
乔，老兄，最近怎么样？
Jon, what's going on, my man?
史蒂夫，你心里早就有数了。
Steve, you already know.
又回来了，给大伙儿送上他们想看的。
Back again to give the people what they want.
咱们开始吧。
Let's go.
就是这样。
There we are.
就是这样。
There we are.
今天我们来聊聊训练和跑步计划。
We're here to talk track to talk training.
如果你喜欢讨论训练，喜欢深入探讨像今天这样的话题，那我真不知道你还在忙什么。
As always, If you enjoy talking training, if you enjoy going deep on topics like we will today, then I don't know what you're doing.
你一定要了解一下《跑步学者计划》。
You need to check out the Running Scholar Program.
这是你获取耐力跑相关知识的首选资源。
It's your number one source for anything endurance running related.
我们差不多有三十门课程，覆盖了方方面面。
We've got it all covered in almost 30 courses.
目前我们正在讲高中阶段的训练课程。
We're going through a high school course right now.
我们还有每月的Zoom分享会，以及学者俱乐部，你可以和成百上千的教练交流互动，玩得开心。
And we've got, you know, our monthly Zoom talks and our Scholar Clubhouse where you can interact with hundreds upon hundreds of other coaches and just have a good time.
是的。
Yeah.
夏天是最适合提升自己、好好学习的季节。
Summertime's the best time to enhance yourself and get your learning on.
所以如果你还没加入，现在就加入吧，趁着夏天多下载些知识和课程，等秋天来了再全身心投入训练。
So if you haven't joined, join and download as much knowledge and education as you want here in the summer months before you kick kick back up and get going full steam come the fall.
这就对了。
There we go.
这才是重点。
That's what it's all about.
好了。
Alright.
那我们开始本周的讨论吧——有氧能力的提升：科学方法提高专项耐力。
So let's get into this week's discussion, developing aerobic power, a scientific approach to improving specific endurance.
有氧能力到底是什么，史蒂夫？
What the hell is aerobic power, Steve?
这正是问题的核心所在。
You know, this is this is this is the crux of it.
我想先铺垫一下，因为咱们对这些术语的定义实在太多了。
So I wanna set the stage here because we have so many different definitions for everything.
是的。
Yes.
我明白。
I know.
这太离谱了。
It's absurd.
确实太离谱了。
It's absurd.
问题是这样，我先简单说一下，然后把球踢回给你，不过我得先交代点背景。
And the problem is, and I'm just gonna outline this and then cheat and kick it back to you, but I'm gonna give give some context here.
如果我们翻翻科学文献，看看有氧能力跟有氧功率的区别，就会发现一种说法。
So if we if we looked at the literature, like the scientific literature, and we looked at aerobic capacity versus power, we'd see one definition.
你知道的。
You know?
能力，说白了就是你有多大潜力，以及你展现这种潜力的能力。
Capacity, essentially, like, how much do you have power, your ability to express that capacity.
对吧？
Right?
要是看看乔恩·奥尔里希在游泳领域的出色研究，他对有氧功率和能力的区分，完全是另一套说法。
If we go and we look at Jon Olbrich's, brilliant work in swimming, how he divines aerobic power versus capacity, completely different.
我得翻一下他的书，但我记得他用的是不一样的定义。
I'd have to pull up his book, but I remember a different definition.
再比如雷娜塔·卡诺瓦，我们专门开过一门课，多亏他慷慨分享了这么多优质内容，他对有氧功率和能力的培养方式也完全不同。
If we went over to Renata Canova, who we have an entire course on, thanks to him generously giving so much, great content, how he develops aerobic power and capacity are different.
我觉得一旦进入耐力运动这个领域，这些概念真的会把人搞晕。
And I and I think I think when we get into the world of of of endurance, you know, those definitions really kinda confuse the hell out of us.
对吧？
Right?
所以我先理一下这个背景，然后交给你，乔恩，想听听你到底用的是哪个定义，咱们好统一一下说法。
So I'm gonna set the stage there, and then I'm gonna turn it over to you, Jon, to tell us what in the world definition do you use so that we can, you know, get on the same page here.
是的。
Yeah.
不是，史蒂夫。
No, Steve.
你说得对。
You're right.
这中间的界限很模糊。
It's blurred lines.
你知道的。
You know?
我觉得最让人头疼的，就是所谓的耐力运动，或者像迈克·史密斯和我常说的是‘有氧能力’，这个概念实在太模糊了，根本说不清。
And I think that's the the most frustrating thing about, quote, unquote, endurance or aerobicness as, you know, Mike Smith and I generally call it the aerobicness is this very opaque spectrum of understanding.
比如有人总说，得跑够里程才能提升有氧能力，或者现在得练节奏跑、双阈值，又或者高强度的无氧阈值训练。
And, you know, you have things like people be like, oh, I gotta run, quote, unquote, mileage to get more aerobically fit, or I need to do tempo or double threshold now or, you know, hard v o two max.
每个人对它的理解都不一样，都是靠自己摸索出来的说法。
Like, everyone has kind of this very roundabout working definition and understanding of it.
但当我们去看科学文献时，有氧能力其实非常简单，至少我临床上是这么定义和使用的。
But when we look at the science and literature, you know, aerobic power is a very, very simple thing, you know, at least how I've clinically defined it and used it in my practice.
对我来说，有氧能力就是你能多快地维持一个输出功率，功率衡量的是力量和速度，也就是我们常说的‘速度’，同时尽量减少疲劳的产生。
You know, for me, aerobic power is the how fast can you maintain an output, right, of power, and power is a measure of strength and velocity or what we call, quote, unquote, speed, you know, with minimizing the rate of fatigue.
对吧？
Right?
因为那些我们称为乳酸、酸中毒之类的疲劳产物，这些代谢物才是真正拖慢我们的东西，它们会向大脑和肌肉发出信号：嘿。
Because those fatigue byproducts that we call lactate or acidosis or what have you, those metabolites, those are the things that, quote, unquote, slow us down because they signal to the brain and the muscle tissue like, hey.
我们快撑不住了。
We're getting overwhelmed here.
得歇一歇了。
We need to check out.
但我们知道，只要身体各处的线粒体能提升细胞层面的效率，就能把这些代谢物重新回收，转化成能量。
But we know that with, cellular improvements in the mitochondria throughout the body locally and globally, we can essentially create recycling centers for all that those metabolites that are turned right back into energy.
所以这正是最难理解的地方。
So this is the hard thing about it.
说白了，就是你在特定时间内能多快地跑，同时尽量减缓疲劳的积累。
It's about, essentially, how fast can you go for a relative specific duration of time with minimizing the rate of fatigue.
对吧？
Right?
很多时候，我们会说这个人不容易累，或者有‘后劲’。
And a lot of times, we repurpose this as saying, oh, that person doesn't have doesn't get tired or they, quote, unquote, have a kick.
尤其是在田径比赛中，这种后劲其实说明运动员疲劳得更慢、减速幅度更小，能在最后阶段爆发出更多能量。
And sometimes in a lot of races, especially on the track, that kick is actually indicative of being less tired and a slower rate of deceleration and having, quote, unquote, more energy available to have a final spurt in those closing moments of a race.
但有氧能力这个概念本身其实挺模糊的。
But it's a very, you know, nebulous thing, aerobic power.
明白了。
Alright.
我插一句，我刚在学者项目里找到了我想找的卡诺瓦定义，得确保我说得准确。
I'm gonna jump in here because I I found the Canova definition I was looking for in the Scholar Program just so that I was accurate.
我引述一下：有氧能力，就是你快速清除乳酸、从而维持高速奔跑的能力。
And I'm quoting here, aerobic power, your ability in removing very quickly the lactate that can produce running fast.
简单来说
So in simplistic terms
没错。
There you go.
简单来说，这话到底是什么意思？
In simplistic terms, what in the world does that translated mean?
就是乔恩刚才说的那回事。
It means what Jon just just said.
就是说，能在尽量减少和应对疲劳的情况下产生功率、快速奔跑，而卡诺瓦这里用乳酸作为疲劳的指标。
Like, the ability to produce power, run fast while, you know, minimizing and dealing with fatigue, or in this case, you know, Canova is using lactate as a surrogate marker for fatigue.
我觉得最关键的是，人体其实有很强的自我修复和循环能力，前提是你得给它提供对的条件和原料。
And I think that's the most important thing to understand is the human body has an amazing regenerative and recycling capacity if we have the right, you know, materials and ingredients prepared for it to do that.
但如果你没提供对的条件，它就做不到。
And it also doesn't if we don't.
对吧？
Right?
这就是训练。
This is training.
训练的本质，就是给身体提供正确的原料，让肌肉组织自然地实现能量回收，乳酸只是个替代指标。
Training is essentially infusing the body with the right materials to create this recycling of energy organically within localized muscle tissue with the surrogate of lactate.
但如果我们不做这种训练，就会撞上所谓的‘撞墙’。
But if we don't do that training that allows us to do that, then we get hit with this, quote, unquote, wall.
对吧？
Right?
这堵墙可能是糖原耗尽造成的。
And the wall can be a wall of glycogen deplete depletion.
对吧？
Right?
也可能是过度酸中毒和速度骤降带来的。
Or it can be the bear of excessive acidosis and deceleration.
所以，科诺瓦和我想法完全一致。
So, you know, Connoe and I are on the the same wavelength here.
我喜欢他对简洁的定义，但这不仅仅是乳酸的故事。
I like his definition of simplicity, but it again, it's not just about the story of lactate.
他用乳酸作为替代物，就像史蒂夫说的那样。
He's using lactate as that surrogate, as Steve said.
要理解身体里发生的其他所有代谢过程，然后找到方法提升这种有氧能力或线粒体的发育，这样运动员才能跑得更快、更久，而且减速更少。
Understand all the other metabolic processes that are taking place within the body, and then figuring out ways to, enhance that capacity of that specific, what we call aerobic or mitochondrial development, then allow that athlete to run faster longer with slowing down less.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
我还想补充一点，为了更清楚一点，卡诺瓦的资料里提到，有氧能力其实是5000米、10000米和半程马拉松的关键，这完全说得通。
So and I should also say that that, you know, maybe to clarify things more is, like, in the Canova documents, he essentially says that aerobic power is, like, the key to I think it's the five k, 10 k, and half marathon, which which totally makes sense.
因为你想啊，这些项目，尤其是在精英层面，包括半程马拉松，速度都超过了乳酸阈值。
Because if you think about it, like, you know, all of those all of those events are especially at the elite level, including the half marathon, all of them are faster than lactate threshold.
对吧？
Right?
那这意味着什么？
So what does that mean?
这意味着，比如马拉松，有氧能力当然还是很重要的。
It means that, you know, for the marathon, for example, it doesn't mean that aerobic power isn't important.
它确实重要，但正如我们标题所说，它并不是所谓的专项耐力。
It is, but it's not to quote our title, it's not specific endurance.
对吧？
Right?
但对于五公里、十公里和半程马拉松来说，它就是。
For the five k, 10 k, and half marathon, it is.
甚至在中学或锦标赛的中距离赛事中，比如800米和1500米，有氧能力对顺利晋级也至关重要。
And even in, like, say, the crucible of Scholastic or championship racing for the middle distances, the eight and the 15, a world car is important for being able to get through the rounds.
对吧？
Right?
比如在奥运选拔赛上跑800米，如果你能进决赛，就得连跑三轮。
So if you're at the Olympic trials and running 800, you have three rounds of 800 if you make it to the final.
也就是说，连续两天跑两轮800米，休息一天，然后才比决赛。
So you have two rounds of 800 back to back days, a day's rest, and then a final of the eight.
1500米也是类似，有预赛，然后直接进决赛。
The 15, similar, you have a 15 prelim and then on to the final.
所以有氧能力让你能更快恢复，减少能量耗竭，让身体及时补充能量，第二天还能重新冲刺——比如在NCAA锦标赛、州锦标赛，或者美国选拔赛、奥运选拔赛这种高强度的800米比赛中。
So also aerobic power allows you to be able to, you know, rebound or recover, quote unquote, or have the least amount of energy depletion from you that you can resynthesize back in your storage, get back up to speed, and be ready to go again the next day in a very difficult thing like, you know, all out 800 at whether it be the NCAA championships, the state championships, or the US trials, Olympic trials, what have you.
没错。
Absolutely.
好的。
Alright.
我们刚才绕了个弯，从疲劳的角度做了个解释，很高兴你提到，或者说我们讨论过，乳酸常被当作一个替代指标。
So we've we've kinda given the roundabout definition looking at fatigue, and I'm glad also you mentioned or we talked about how lactate is often used as a surrogate marker.
乳酸这个词，我们这么用主要是历史原因，但其实它代表的是一堆导致疲劳的代谢产物。
Lactate's kind of the catch all term that we use just based on history, but it could be any sort of, fatiguing byproducts that that occur there.
行了。
So alright.
我们已经讲清楚了目标，也说明了为什么这特别重要——尤其是5000米、10000米和半程马拉松，中距离项目也同样适用，我再用卡诺瓦的一个说法来总结一下。
We've outlined what we're trying to do, why it's important, especially five k, 10 k half marathon, but also for the middle distance because it serves I'll use another Canova term.
虽然可能没那么精准，但它直接支撑着关键环节，就像你说的，帮助我们顺利通过每一轮比赛。
It might not be quite be as specific, but it serves as the direct support to the thing, which means, as you said, it supports our ability to get go through the rounds.
它让我们能更快恢复。
It supports our ability to recover.
它还能帮我们在比赛中途应对疲劳。
It supports our ability to, handle or deal with fatigue in the middle of the race.
你可以这么想：有氧能力越强，中距离项目中有氧和无氧供能的平衡就会稍微向有氧倾斜。
Because if you think of it like this, the stronger our aerobic power is, the balance between aerobic and inner anaerobic energy usage shifts in those middle distance events slightly.
如果我们的有氧能力特别好，通常就能让有氧系统承担更多负荷，尤其是在比赛前期，从而延缓或减少那些让人疲劳的代谢产物积累。
Because if our aerobic power is, again, really good, then what happens generally is our our aerobic system can handle more of the workload, especially early on, which delays or decreases the fatiguing byproducts that that, you know, develop.
所以这极其重要，几乎关乎我们所有关注的方面。
So it's really important and basically everything that we care about.
好了，乔恩。
Alright, Jon.
对。
Yeah.
现在我们来设定你的训练阶段。
Now we set your stage.
这一点非常关键。
It's very important.
你到底该怎么思考这个问题呢？
How in the world do you go about thinking about, okay.
我该怎么提升这个方面？
How do I improve this component?
归根结底，还是得回到我们反复讨论过的话题——线粒体的发育，也就是线粒体生物生成。
Well, it all comes back, right, to understanding the thing we have talked we talk about ad nauseam here, you know, is mitochondrial development, right, or mitochondrial biogenesis or biogenesis.
一旦你明白了其中的规律，事情就变得很简单，但你必须先掌握这些规律。
And you once you know the rules to that, it is very simple, but you have to know the rules.
几十年来，我们一直在绕着这个话题打转，但现在我们终于能精准地定位到相关的科学原理，而且还在不断进步。
And, you know, that that is the the area where we have danced around it for decades, but now we actually have pinpointed localized science and it's getting better and better and better.
所以我们现在能真正理解，那些被称为训练的信号机制究竟是怎么回事，以及它们会产生什么效果。
So we can really understand what those rules of signaling events that we call training sessions are and what they do.
所以，你得先看清楚你带的是哪种运动员。
And so with that, essentially, you have to look at one, the type of athlete you're working with.
他们是八百米跑的选手吗？就是纯粹的中距离跑者？
Are they kind of this 800 meter runner, you know, middle distance, pure middle distance?
还是那种混合型的十五五公里选手？或者纯粹的五公里到十公里选手？
Are they kind of that hybrid fifteen five k person, or are they like this five k 10 k person?
一旦你弄清楚了他们需要的体能水平，我就总是从时间需求入手。
And once you understand the capacity that they need, right, and from a capacity standpoint, I always start with a time demand.
他们的身体需要在多大的压力下持续多久？
How long are they is their system, their body to be under this pressure of demand?
如果是纯粹的八百米跑者，那大概就是两分钟左右。
So for a mild distance pure mild distance runner, if they're 800 only, you're looking at about two minutes.
一千五百米的话，大概就是四到五分钟。
15 mile, looking about four or five minutes.
对吧？
Right?
五公里的话，时间大概在十三到十八分钟之间，具体要看你带的是哪类运动员。
Five k, you're looking at about anywhere from depending who you work with, you know, thirteen to eighteen minutes.
五公里和十公里相比，时间差不多翻倍。
Five in 10 k, double that.
对吧？
Right?
所以再加一分钟左右。
So plus one minute.
因此，运动员需要在多大压力下持续多久，会直接决定你的训练路径该怎么设计。
So, again, how long are they gonna be under pressure will then dictate how you know, the avenue about how your developmental pathway will look.
太棒了。
Love it.
这说得通。
That makes sense.
我打算再调出科瓦的图表，刚找到。
I'm gonna I'm gonna pull up I'm gonna, again, go to the Canova, which I just found the chart.
再说一下，不是打广告，我是在我们的跑步学者项目里找到这个的。
Again, not to ad advertise, but I found it on our running Scholar Program.
我觉得，关键还是要看具体比赛，但就像很多事情一样，能用的训练方法很多，得根据比赛目标和有氧能力的发展来灵活选择。
Because I I think the the way we look at it is, again, specific to the event, but I also think it's it's like most things is there's a wide variation of tools that we can utilize depending on that event developed at aerobic power.
我们得随时能拿出这些方法来用。
And, and we need to be able to, like, pull those out of our pocket.
我这就列几个书里提到的方法。
So I'm just gonna list a couple of the methods that are listed in.
第一种，渐进加速跑。
A, fast progressive run.
对吧？
Right?
这是什么意思？
What is that?
就是二十分钟里，每一段都比前一段跑得更快。
You know, twenty minutes where you're getting faster every single time.
长距离速度变化，你怎么看这种训练？
Longer speed variations, what do we think of those?
这些其实就是时间更长的间歇跑。
Those are essentially longer intervals.
中等速度变化，也就是中等强度的间歇跑。
Medium speed variations, Medium intervals.
短距离速度变化。
Short speed variations.
对。
Yeah.
短间歇跑。
Short intervals.
混合速度变化，就是穿插着不同配速，比如先以5公里或10公里的配速跑一英里，再跑几个400米，接近3公里的配速，接着再来一段持续上坡跑。
Mixed speed variations where we're going through and mixing the speed, maybe going from running a mile at at, probably, you know, five k, 10 k pace and then some four hundreds at three k ish pace, then continuous uphill runs.
我想回头再详细说说这个。
So and I wanna come back to this.
还有各种比赛。
And then various competitions.
我这么说是因为这并不算什么新发现，但当我们讨论有氧能力发展时，关键点还是五公里到半程马拉松，其他运动也有关联，但特别针对五公里到半程马拉松。
And the reason I say that is it's not groundbreaking, but, essentially, when we're looking at aerobic power development, we talked about how is key, again, five k to half marathon, also sports other things, but specific for five k to half marathon.
这意味着，根据每个人的具体情况和他们所训练的项目，以及训练目标的不同，我们需要能够灵活应对不同强度的刺激。
And what that generally means is depending on the individual depending on the event that they're training for, the demands that they're training for, we need to be able to go up and down the spectrum of stimuli.
公里？
K?
如果我们从乳酸的角度来看，这一点特别重要：很多人说，想在五公里、十公里配速下降低乳酸水平，那就得提高乳酸阈值。
And one of the reasons that this is really important if we look at things through the lactate lens is, generally, if people say, oh, you wanna decrease your lactate levels at, you know, five k, 10 k pace, that must mean you have to improve your lactate threshold.
这确实有一定道理。
There's a degree of that.
但其实，乳酸阈值说白了，就是身体完成这种强度运动的能力。
But, really, lactate threshold is again, it's kind of the capacity to do the thing.
对吧？
Right?
这是稳态。
It's the steady state.
我们在有氧能力训练中关注的不是稳态，因为在这类专项运动中，我们根本不是处于稳态。
What we're concerned with in aerobic power is not the steady state because, generally, in these events where it's specific, we're not at a steady state.
当然，顶尖选手跑10公里时可能接近稳态，但对我们大多数人来说，跑10公里、5公里、1500米、800米，根本不是稳态。
Now there's some, you know, approximation of it and very elite athletes running a 10 k, but for the vast majority of us running the 10 k, five k, 1,500, 800, we're not we're not in a steady state.
对吧？
Right?
各种情况都在变化。
Things are varying.
我们身体的能量系统使用也在不断变化。
Our energy system usage is varying.
代谢产物，比如乳酸，都在上升，这改变了身体的需求。
Our byproducts, lactate, etcetera, are increasing, which shifts the demands.
正因为不是稳态，我们才需要这种变化式的训练，才能有效清除乳酸——就像乔恩说的，训练线粒体去处理这些代谢物，把乳酸转化成能量，促进线粒体和细胞膜上的乳酸转运蛋白发挥作用，这就必须靠这种动态的训练方式。
And because we aren't in that steady state, what allows us to deal with to clear the lactate wherein Jon or as Jon said, develop the mitochondria to deal with the, you know, byproducts converting lactate to energy sources, the mitochondria adjacent mitochondria transporters, such transport, you know, lactate in into and out of the cell, we need the we need this varying approach.
对吧？
Right?
我们需要长距离间歇、短距离间歇，还有不同速度的中等强度训练，速度范围大概从三公里到接近半马的速度。
We need the long intervals, the short intervals, the speed the medium intervals at varying speeds among in between this kinda three to to almost half marathon speed.
最后我想说一点，我觉得这正是卡诺瓦让我接触到的一个新理念——持续上坡跑。
And then the last thing I'll say, and I think, you know, this is where Canova really introduced me to a new concept here is this continuous uphill run.
这种训练方式，肯尼亚顶尖选手早就用习惯了，但卡诺瓦提出，你也可以在跑步机上做，我自己就试过。
And it's something that the Kenyans elite Kenyans have done for a while, but it's something that Canova suggested you could do on the treadmill, which I, you know, I've done.
我知道其他顶尖教练也都在用这种方法。
I know other elite coaches have utilized as well.
那为什么这种方法有效呢？
And why does this work?
因为当我们上坡跑步时，比如坡度在5%到6%左右，做较长的间歇训练、长距离法特莱克，或者类似的内容，在跑步机上坡跑时。
Well, because when we're running uphill, let's say at a, you know, a decent hill, a five to 6% grade, maybe doing our longer intervals or longer fart lick or something like that on on, on the treadmill uphill.
它会改变肌肉纤维的激活模式，导致乳酸水平上升，因为你现在更多地调动了快肌纤维——毕竟上坡增加了功率需求，肌肉的使用方式已经变了。
What it does is it shifts the demands a little bit of the fiber recruitment, which tends to then increase lactate levels because you're now recruiting more fast twitch fibers because the power demands have gone up because you're running up a hill or have shifted because you're running up a hill.
现在你有了产生乳酸的肌纤维，这反过来能训练那些更偏慢缩的肌纤维，让它们意识到：嘿，
And now you have lactate producing fibers, which then allows you to train the kinda more slow twitch fibers to say, hey.
咱们得把这些乳酸拿起来，好好利用，转化成能量之类的。
We need to take this stuff up and do something with it, convert it to energy, etcetera.
乳酸 shuttle，用起来。
Lactate shuttle use use it.
所以我特别喜欢这个理念——通过上坡来改变身体的运作模式，从而在相对较慢的速度下训练有氧能力，因为你不需要跑得多快，坡度本身就已经提升了负荷。
So I love this concept of, again, like, using uphill to shift those dynamics to train this aerobic power often at slower speeds because you don't have to run as fast because you've shifted the demands because you're running up the hill.
对。
Yeah.
这一点非常关键。
That's really important.
不管是短距离的上坡冲刺，还是长时间持续的上坡跑，都很重要。
Like, the uphill running, whether it be short hill sprints that have, you know, are popular and or long continuous or far, like, up the hill.
我们这儿在西北太平洋地区有一条叫班克斯-弗农尼亚的小径，全程差不多十英里，坡度特别理想，正好适合上坡训练。
We have, you know, this trail called Banks Vernonia Trail out here in the North Pacific Northwest where you can get, essentially 10 miles at that perfect, you know, kinda gradient up the hill.
在训练初期、准备期或者基础期，这种训练方式特别有效，原因正如史蒂夫说的——你不会像在平地上那样，产生那种弹跳式的反应跑动或周期性的机械反馈。
That's really beneficial in the beginning of the training period or the preparation phase or base phase, if you might call it, for exactly the reason Steve articulated is, essentially, right, you don't have the reactive running or the cyclical reactive mechanics where you get this, like, spring last effect and this, you know, fluidity on the flat.
上坡本身就会带来阻力。
Your the hill itself is a demand of breakage.
对吧？
Right?
你得主动减速、制动，因为你得往上爬。
You're creating breaking or stopping because you have to go up the hill.
这就需要调动全身更多的组织参与，从而全面提升整个系统的线粒体产能能力。
So it requires way more global tissue recruitment, which overall throughout the entire system gives you a general more robust mitochondrial, capacity throughout your whole body.
当你在后期进入更专项的阶段，比如进行高速跑训练时，你体内会拥有更多像‘回收站’一样的辅助系统，能够高效利用乳酸穿梭机制来供能，即使局部疲劳明显，也能减轻整体疲劳。
So when you do stress local fibers, for, say, running really fast, specifically, you know, when you move out of the base or preparation phase into a more specific phase, you have a lot more surrounding the way to think I like to think about it is surrounding recycling centers that were equipped and capable to help produce energy through this, you know, lactate shuttle or any or lactate transport system and then minimize that global fatigue even though a lot of local fatigue might be happening when running faster reps on
在跑道上。
the track.
所以，理解如何通过不同经得起时间检验的方法来发展有氧能力，非常重要。
So it's really important to understand how we're going to develop aerobic power with that infusing aerobic capacity through different strategies that have, you know, stood the test of time.
以前我们这么做只是因为我们知道它有效，但并不知道它为什么有效。
And we used to just do it because we knew it worked, but we didn't know why it works.
现在我们做事更精准一些，因为我们更清楚某些训练方法为什么有效，以及如何在每位运动员的训练周期中合理安排这些方法。
And now we do things a little bit more, precision because now we have a better understanding of why certain practices work and when to place them in the, you know, training periodization for each athlete.
这其实可以追溯到利迪雅德。
Well, you know, this is like it goes back to Lidyard.
如果你看看利迪雅德在基础阶段的做法，大家通常会觉得，哦，就是每周跑一百英里，直到你去看看瓜达拉哈拉，抱歉，如果我发音不准的话。
If you look at Lidyard during the base phase, everybody thinks like, oh, you know, running a 100 miles a week until you go look at the Guayatura sorry if I mispronounced
就是这一点。
that.
瓜伊鲁瓦。
Guayurua.
瓜伊鲁瓦。
Guayurua.
搞定。
There you go.
当你习惯了那种说法之后。
And once you go used to say.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
一旦你看看那里的海拔变化，就会明白，不能老是平地上保持六分三十秒的配速跑个不停。
Once you look at the elevation change of that, you realize, oh, like, this isn't, like, go run, you know, six thirty pace on your flat run road all the time.
对吧？
Right?
想想看，在那段上坡或者长时间稳速跑的时候会发生什么。
Because think about it during during that that hill or that that long steady effort.
你上坡的时候，肌肉纤维的募集方式就会发生变化。
What happens is you run up the hill and you start you shift the fiber, know, recruitment.
即使速度不快，身体也会开始产生乳酸。
You start producing some lactate even though you're going slow, etcetera.
然后你回到平地或下坡时，就会学会怎么利用这种状态恢复体力。
And then you go on the flat or downhill and you you learn how to use it and recover, etcetera.
这可不是那种一直保持稳定、轻松的状态，好像所有东西都固定不变。
It's not this, like, steady, easy you know, everything is, you know, we're in a steady state.
我们其实是有变化的。
We have this variation.
接着你再看看，他之后做了什么？
And and then you go look at, what did he do do after this?
你知道的，他进入了坡道训练阶段， literally 就是在平地上冲刺、慢跑上坡、飞驰下坡，来回交替。
You know, he went into his hill phase where they're literally alternating, you know, between running sprints sometimes on the flat to steady up the hill to flying down the hill.
这又是通过山地训练制造变化，为这种有氧能力的提升打下基础。
And it's, again, this variation utilizing hills to train, some of this or set the stages for this kind of aerobic power development.
这跟卡诺瓦引入的上坡跑，甚至他的坡道循环训练，本质上没什么不同。
It's no different than when Canova introduces his uphill running or even some of his hill circuit training.
我特别喜欢这一点，就像你说的，作为这个训练的开端，因为它能让你在不跑得太快的情况下，悄悄地锻炼身体的生理机能。
And I love this, as you said, as the introduction to this because what it does is it allows you to kinda, I think, sneakily train the physiology without running too fast.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
你实际上是在悄悄地训练，不是以五公里、三公里甚至一英里的配速去跑，而是让身体在轻微乳酸堆积的情况下，学会有氧地利用它——你还是慢跑，让环境自己发挥作用。
Like like, what you're doing is you're, like, sneakily, you know, again, not running, not going five k pace or three k pace or even mile pace, whatever it is to get some lactate spikes in there and then train body how to utilize that lactate, you know, aerobically, what you're doing is, again, running slow and letting the environment do it do its job.
这样能提升身体的生理能力。
And what this does is it builds the physiological ability.
对吧？
Right?
你会增加线粒体。
You get the mitochondria.
还会提升乳酸转运蛋白，所有这些有益的适应，都会为你之后更精准地提高训练强度打下基础。
You get the tran lactate transporters in there, all all of those good things, which then set the stage for you to up that dosage or up that training stimulus in a more specific way.
对。
Mhmm.
而且
And
哦，你先说吧，
This oh, go ahead,
史蒂夫。
Steve.
不用了。
No.
你来说吧。
I you go for it.
当教练决定什么时候、怎么安排这种提升耐力的训练，比如爬坡或者长距离连续坡道这类训练时，你必须非常了解你的运动员。
Oh, I was gonna say, you know, and this is a coach when you decide, you know, how and when to implement this, you know, capacity building activity, like these hills or long continuous hills or what have you, you have to know your athlete very well.
我会从一个角度去判断：眼前这位运动员的线粒体水平是高、低，还是中等？
And the lens I look through with that athlete is I go, do I have in front of me a mitochondria rich, poor, or middle class athlete, essentially?
对吧？
Right?
所以意思就是，好吧。
So it's saying, okay.
如果我面对的是一个高中生新生、第一次练田径的人、训练严重不足的大学生，或者休整了一两年、期间几乎没怎么活动的运动员，那这个人线粒体水平非常低。
If I have the high school freshman or the first time out for track person or a really undertrained collegiate athlete or someone coming back after a long layoff and not doing a whole lot of, you know, activity during their layoff for a year, two years, whatever, this is a very mitochondrial poor individual.
对吧？
Right?
如果我面对的是个二队运动员，或者稍微快一点的大学生，每天跑个二十到六十分钟，一周跑六七天，那这种就是线粒体中等水平。
And if I have a junior varsity athlete or kind of a a marginally fast collegiate athlete, you know, who's, like, maybe doing maybe running anywhere from twenty to sixty minutes a day, six, seven days a week, this is mitochondrial middle class.
我们通常会推崇那些线粒体水平极高、所谓的耐力怪才，比如现在的小尼科·杨。
We esteem, right, the mitochondrial rich or, quote, unquote, aerobic monsters of the world, like, say, Nico Young is right now.
但你得记住，这种判断方法我们可以反复拿来用。
But you have to remember, like, this is something that we can look to over and over and over again.
在小尼科·杨之前，还有阿比·努尔。
You know, before there was Nico Young, there's Abdi Neur.
在阿比·努尔效力NAU之前，还有泰勒·戴。
Before there's Abdi Neur at NAU, there was Tyler Day.
在泰勒·塔拉德之前，还有安德鲁·塔拉德，很多人已经忘了他。
Before there's Tyler Day, there's Andrew Tarrard, which a lot of people forget.
在安德鲁·塔拉德和泰勒·塔拉德之前，其实还有富苏姆。
Before there's Andrew Tarrard and Tyler Day, you know, there was, you know, Futsum.
在富苏姆之前，是大卫·奥尼尔。
Before there's Futsum, there's David O'Neill.
对吧？
Right?
我们可以一直往前追溯，看看这些所谓的NAU出身的运动员。
Like, we can go back and just look at all these, quote, unquote, NAU people.
并不是因为他们属于NAU。
And it's not that they're NAU.
而是因为那里有一套体系，专门把线粒体水平很低的人，逐步培养成线粒体非常充沛的耐力型选手。
It's just the system up there was about long term aerobic development from mitochondrial poor people to to very mitochondrial wealthy or aerobic monsters.
所以你的起点，就是要根据你所训练的项目和可用的时间，判断眼前这位运动员的线粒体水平处于哪个阶段。
And with that, that is your starting point, is you have to figure out relative for the demands of the event you're training for and the time horizons you have, what class of mitochondrial development is this athlete that's in front of you, resting in.
没错。
Absolutely.
我觉得就是这样，对。
And I think that's it's like the yeah.
我的意思是，这就是为什么高中新生和大学新生，或者所谓的职业新人，他们的训练发展路径会不一样，因为他们的背景不同。
I mean, it's it's it's why the training development is different for that high school freshman versus you get the college freshman or the professional, quote, unquote, freshman newbie because their background is different.
我认为，要培养这种能力，或者思考如何培养，第一步就是先了解他们的基础能力，也就是从一般到具体的过程。
And I think step one to developing this stuff or to thinking of how do I develop this is, again, general to specific or what capacity they do they have?
他们在开始训练之前，具备什么样的能力？起点在哪里？
What ability do they have, what starting point do they have before we go into the training.
我觉得这就是为什么，如果我们从线粒体的角度来看这个问题，会说，好吧。
And I think this is why, you know, if we look at it from a mitochondria standpoint and we say, okay.
你的线粒体功能比较弱。
Your mitochondria poor.
如果我们直接就开始跑步，比如做五公里的重复跑，或者按五公里配速来跑间歇，或者是所谓的最大摄氧量训练，一开始可能确实会有点进步，但因为我们缺乏支持长期发展的基础，所以效果有限。
If we jump straight into running, you know, five k repeats or what or, like, five k pace repeats or, quote, unquote, v o two max stuff, we're we we might improve a little bit at first, but we're doing it with nothing to, you know, supply the the long term term development here.
根本就没有能量，也没有能力通过有氧方式产生能量。
Like, there's no the energy, the power, you know, ability to produce energy is very low aerobically.
所以你得回头看看，他们现在到底处在什么水平。
And I think this is this is why you have to look at, again, where are they at?
这就是为什么利德亚德当年会直接说——我不是要讲历史，但为什么他会提出——
This is why Lidyard, you know, back in the day, again, not to give a history lesson, but why does he jump into the, hey.
咱们得每周跑一百英里，还得在坡路上跑，诸如此类。
We need to run a 100 miles a week and then, you know, on these hilly roads and blah blah blah.
因为他那个年代普遍认为，就是罗杰·班尼斯特的时代。
Because he was coming out of an era that essentially said it was the Roger Bannister era.
对吧？
Right?
那时候流行的是——
It was, hey.
午休时间来十个四百米冲刺，跑得快一点就行。
Let's do ten four hundreds on our lunch break and get a little bit faster.
这招在跑一英里或者八百米的时候还挺管用，对吧？因为那时候还能应付得过去。
And that worked pretty dang well for, you know, if you're running the mile, right, or the 800 because you could get away with it.
但随着他们不断进步，才真正意识到：我们的有氧能力根本没跟上。
But as as they progress, like, literally literally realized, like, oh, our aerobic abilities, like, we have not developed them.
我们需要让线粒体更丰富。
We need to get mitochondria rich.
对吧？
Right?
如果你回头去翻那些老资料，会发现他其实隐隐提到过这些观点。
And if you go back and you read, you know, littered stuff, like, he alludes to these.
他当时并不完全懂生理机制，但根据当时的知识，尽力做出了最好的解读。
He didn't quite understand the physiology, but interpreted as best he could, for the knowledge of that day.
他说，咱们得想办法让身体变得更耐力。
And he said, hey.
换句话说，就是得让线粒体变多，所以我们必须这么做。
We've gotta get essentially in I'm translating mitochondria rich, so we need to do this.
我觉得现在的区别在于，如果你是刚入学的大一新生，你面临的处境就跟练直线项目的运动员一样。
And I think the difference is now is that, again, if you're a freshman coming in, you're in the same position that linear athletes were.
可能线粒体还没那么丰富。
Like, maybe not that mitochondria rich.
不过具体看你个人的情况，你的线粒体发育程度或基础会有所不同，这就会影响你进行有氧能力训练的量和强度。
But depending on where you are, like, you're gonna be a different level of, like, mitochondria development or background, which then shifts how much or what level of or what kind of aerobic power development you do.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得，从理论层面过渡到实践，确实是这样。
And I think, you know, getting in from the theory and Yep.
你知道的，进入实际操作阶段，方法其实有很多种。
You know, kind of moving into actual, like, practice, you can go through this in multiple multiplicity of ways.
所以我这里举三个例子。
And so I'll give three examples here.
我自己，史蒂夫·马格努斯，还有大卫·拉迪沙。
Myself, Steve Magnus, David Radisha.
这搭配还真是有点特别。
Quite quite an odd pairing.
就拿我自己的高中运动经历来说，高二那年是我最大的转折点——那是二十年前，还没出现超级跑鞋，我三千米跑出了9分钟整，进了州赛，但只拿了倒数第二。
So for myself and my own high school athletic journey, one of the biggest turning points for me in terms of my sophomore year of high school, like, I had as this is twenty years ago before super shoes, ran nine flat for three k, made the state meet, but got second to last.
对吧？
Right?
那年我没能入选州越野赛。
And I didn't make the state cross country meet that sophomore year.
但从高二田径赛季结束到高三越野赛季开始的那个夏天，我从没进州赛直接冲进了全州前五——当时在俄勒冈，迪伦·拉普还只是个刚冒头的新秀。
Between my sophomore year of high school track, that summer before my junior year of cross country, where I ended up going from not making a state meet to getting top five in the state, right, in Oregon at the time when a young Dylan Ruppe was coming into Vogue.
那时候竞争可真激烈。
It was pretty competitive back in the day.
我们队里还有伊恩·多布森，他可是奥运选手。
I mean, we had Ian Dobson who was an Olympian.
对吧？
Right?
俄勒冈的越野跑一直都很强。
Like, this Oregon was always really good in cross country.
那我那年夏天到底发生了什么，才让我有这么大的突破？
So making that leap, what happened over that summer for me?
我和我爸搞了个父子互动项目，就是骑长途自行车旅行。
Well, my father and I, like, had a father son bonding thing, which was doing basically long stage cycling tours.
我们去参加过‘落基山脉骑行’，七天的骑行活动，不比速度，纯粹玩儿。
So we'd go and do ride the Rockies, right, which is a seven day cycling tour, not competitive, but for fun.
但每天都要骑七八十英里，一连七天，都在落基山脉里上下坡。
But you're riding 70 to a 100 miles a day in the Rocky Mountains seven days a week.
这么一来，一周差不多要骑五百英里左右，还在高海拔地区，上上下下。
So you're logging 500, you know, or so miles in high elevation up and down these hills.
我们还参加过一次叫‘死亡骑行’的活动，一天内爬升一万两千英尺，全程一百二十六英里，相当于环法自行车赛最难的一天。
We did this, you know, fun tour ride called a death ride, which was 12,000 feet of elevation gain, a 126 mile ride, like, equivalent to the hardest day on the Tour de France in one day.
对吧？
Right?
这纯粹就是个好玩的休闲活动。
And it was just this fun recreational thing.
整个夏天，我几乎每天都在骑车，一骑就是一到六个小时，就和我爸一起。
So I'm out here on the bike, essentially, anywhere from an hour to six hours a day, almost the whole summer, you know, just riding with my dad.
我们骑得飞快，彼此还较上劲了。
And we're running fast and, like, we're competitive with each other.
我们排成一路纵队，踩着很高的功率，平路上也能保持每小时二十五到三十英里的速度。
We got these pace, you know, pace lines and, know, just pedaling at this high kinda, like, you know, power output now as they call it where we're going 25, 30 miles an hour, like, just on the flats, like, in in these pace lines.
我就这么练着。
So I'm doing that.
差不多每周骑车二十个小时，全身的有氧能力和线粒体都得到了极大提升。
Essentially, I'm getting, you know, somewhere around twenty hours a week on the bike of global aerobic or mitochondrial development.
然后我不怎么跑步了，直接转战高中体育，踢足球、跑越野，成绩一路飙升。
And then not having run that much, I then come in and essentially stop completely stop biking, go right into high school sports, soccer, and cross country, and I'm just crushing left and right.
那时候我就想，这可太棒了。
And then, like, just like I'm like, oh, this is great.
天啊。
Oh, man.
好吧。
Okay.
越野跑很简单。
Cross country is easy.
对吧？
Right?
后来这直接推动了我的高中体育生涯，因为我明白了自己该怎么做，虽然当时我完全不懂什么科学原理。
And then, you know, that spurs my high school career because I figured out, oh, what I need to do and I and I had no, like, I had no scientific understanding.
我只是知道，每天早上得做点运动，要么在家骑动感单车一小时，要么去学校旁边那个公园，以每英里六分钟的速度快跑三到四英里。
I just knew, like, in the morning, needed to do some type of activity where I was, like, go spin on my spinner bike at home for an hour or go do, like, a hard, you know, or fast six minute pace run for three to four miles around the local park right next to my high school.
对吧？
Right?
你想想，这种强度——以每英里六分钟跑三到四英里，跟在家骑动感单车二十分钟到一小时，其实都是在刺激线粒体的信号反应。
And you look at that and go, oh, you're you're at this capacity of, a signaling event for mitochondria, which is three to four miles at six minute pace is about twenty minutes up to an hour spinning.
所以每天早上，在做其他事情之前，先花二十分钟到一小时，制造一次这样的信号刺激，就像双倍训练那样。
So twenty minutes to an hour of creating a singling event in the morning before you actually go do anything, a la double.
然后下午上完课之后，再进行另一次信号刺激，比如越野跑训练或者足球训练。
And then in the afternoon after you go to class, doing another singling event called cross country practice or soccer practice.
我们足球训练前总是先跑五英里，才真正开始踢球，因为我们的足球教练同时也是田径教练，还是个铁杆马拉松爱好者，他就是借这个机会，带着我们这群小伙子偷偷跑他的训练里程。
And then our soccer practice are always prefaced with a five mile run before we even got to soccer practice because my high school coach soccer coach is also a track coach and a big marathon guy, and it was his way to sneak in his training run with the guys before he actually did the soccer practice.
但这对我特别管用。
But it worked brilliantly for me.
对吧？
Right?
史蒂夫·马格努斯。
Steve Magnus.
史蒂夫是怎么变强的？
How did Steve get good?
嗯，当年在高中时，那个双倍训练的家伙，整天埋头看书，心想天啊。
Well, mister double over here in high school, like, reading about, oh my god.
展开剩余字幕（还有 340 条）
这人每天都跑两趟。
This guy doubles every day.
这也太夸张了。
This is crazy.
所以训练量特别大。
So high mileage.
他的高训练量就是靠早晚两跑攒出来的。
Well, his high mileage came from doubles.
对吧？
Right?
早上八英里，晚上八英里，就为了躲 Houston 的烈日——别说是高温高湿了，还得加上那种低海拔的折磨。
Eight miles in the morning, eight miles in the evening, trying to duck the Houston heat or sun, I should say, not the heat and humidity, plus with the poor man's altitude.
砰。
Boom.
砰。
Boom.
砰。
Boom.
他这么练，还有史蒂夫·马格努斯，高中时跑四分零一秒，跑进四分钟大关，穿的还不是专业跑鞋。
He does that, and Steve Magnus comes, you know, four zero one, almost breaking four in the mile high school without super shoes.
大卫·鲁蒂沙在高中时能跑三趟。
David Rutisha, as a high schooler, triples.
对。
Yes.
三趟。
Triples.
我们有证据显示大卫·鲁蒂沙确实做过三趟训练。
We have evidence of David Radisha doing triples.
不过在肯尼亚，三趟跟欧洲或美国人理解的完全不一样。
Now triples in Kenya are much different than what we think about in Europe or America.
那其实就是轻松的恢复跑，大概十公里，花五十分钟左右。
It's a really easy shakeout run, right, for 10 kilometers, which takes about fifty minutes.
六英里用五十分钟，从配速上看确实挺慢的，但刚好能发出足够的信号，突破那个临界点，启动线粒体生成的酶促反应。
Fifty minutes for six miles is pretty darn slow from a pace standpoint, but it's just enough of a signal and just enough of crossing that threshold to start the enzymatic cascade of mitochondrial development.
四个小时后，就是当天的主要训练，不管具体内容是什么。
Four hours later, the the the main training session of the day, whatever it might be.
可能是短距离、高强度，或者别的形式，但心脏和身体承受的压力时间通常在二十到六十分钟之间。
That could be shorter, could be faster, could be this, but the time pressure that the, the heart and the body is working under could be anywhere from twenty to sixty minutes.
这个时间段是从上午十点到十一点或十二点左右。
And then that's at 10AM to about eleven or twelve.
到了下午四点，再来一次五到十公里的跑，用时二十五到五十分钟。
And then at 04:00, boom, another five to, you know, 10 kilometers at twenty five to fifty minutes.
这些时间窗口特别关键，因为从丹尼尔和卡斯蒂尔的时代起，我们就知道，二十分钟是触发线粒体相关生物标志物和酶表达的临界点。
Those time horizons are really important because twenty minutes is as we've known since the days of Daniel and the days of Castile and physiology and distance running, that is the threshold from which the biomarker or enzymatic expressions for myochondria development are spurred.
这个二十分钟不需要连续跑满，
It's a twenty minute now it doesn't need to be twenty minutes continuous.
只要累计达到二十分钟的强度压力就够了。
It can be just twenty minutes of pressure.
你可以在中间穿插一些小休息。
You can take small cute breaks here.
对吧？
Right?
断断续续地跑，跑五分钟，歇一分钟，随便你怎么安排。
Broken thresholds, go for five minutes, rest for sixty seconds, what have you.
一个小时以内是个理想区间，能有效刺激心肌发育的信号。
Up to an hour, right, is a sweet spot where you get the signaling event for myocardial development.
所有真正有效的训练，本质上都是在制造这种信号。
And that's where all really training sessions are, signaling events.
我们知道，这种酶活性的提升会在信号产生后四到六小时开始回落。
And we know that you get this enzymatic bump, and it starts to recede about four to six hours after the signaling event.
所以如果你像史蒂夫或者我那样，一天训练两次，间隔六小时左右——比如早上上学前练一次，放学后马上再练一次——或者像大卫或迪莎那样每四小时来一次信号，你就能自然地撞上这些代谢的黄金窗口：就在酶活性开始下降的时候，又重新把它推上去。
So if you're doubling like Steve or I were, we're about six hour six hours, right, you know, training training activity in the morning before school, training activity right after school, or even David or Disha is doing a signaling event every four hours, you kinda organically hit these metabolic sweet spots where you re up the enzymatic expression from mitochondrial development right as that expression of the enzymes is starting to recede and go down.
这样一来，就形成了一种叠加效应，线粒体发育的信号一波接一波，持续攀升。
And so it creates this, you know, power curve effect where it's this ossip ossip of wave of mitochondrial development or signals that just goes up and up and up.
如果你在一段集中的时间里，日复一日地坚持这样做，你就会变得非常、非常、非常——用我们的话说——有耐力，成为一个有氧能力超强的人，之后就能突然做出一些不可思议的事情，因为你已经打好了基础，身体能够高效吸收和输送能量，在训练后期再加入速度或专项训练时，就能爆发出这种力量。
And you do that day after day after day after day for a condensed period of time, you're gonna get really, really, really, quote, unquote, fit as we call it or aerobically become an aerobic monster and then be able to do these crazy things out of nowhere just because you've laid that foundation and your body can absorb and transport that energy and create this power when you start to layer in the speed or the specific, element later in the training phase.
说起来，这其实挺有意思的。
It you know, it's it's it's funny.
这可以追溯到很久以前。
It, it goes all the way back.
我记得在研究生的运动课或者运动科学课上也学过这个。
I remember learning this in in grad school exercise class or exercise science class too.
我想是约翰·黑尔西在上世纪六十年代对大鼠做的研究，我这是凭记忆说的，抱歉。
I think it's John Halsey's work in the nineteen sixties on rats where I'm doing this off memory, so sorry.
他给大鼠安排了不同的训练计划，然后监测它们线粒体的某些指标。
But he essentially put rats through a training program and then monitored their, like, mitochond markers of mitochondria, essentially.
对吧？
Right?
他让一些大鼠每天训练十分钟，一些三十分钟，一些六十分钟，还有一些一百二十分钟，等等，观察各种情况，然后分析那些我们当时称之为细胞色素c的指标——那是衡量线粒体活性的一个标准。
And he'd vary it up where, you know, some rats went, like, ten minutes a day and some went, you know, thirty, some sixty, some hundred and twenty minutes a day, etcetera, and looked at all these, you know, variations and and then looked at, you know, at at, you know, the the markers of what we called I I think it was cytochrome c, which is a measure of you know, that they use for mitochondria.
结果跟刚才你看到的完全一致，我记得，凭记忆的话，那个指标在达到大约三十分钟时，三十分钟和六十分钟的差别其实并不大。
And it was it was exactly kind of what what you you saw there, which was the marker, if I recall, again, off memory, was, like, once you get to around 30 minutes, like, thirty minutes and sixty minutes were, you know, not a huge difference.
对吧？
Right?
但我记不清具体是哪个区间了。
But between I forget exactly.
不过从十五分钟到三十分钟之间，细胞色素c的数值翻了一倍。
But between fifteen and thirty minutes, like, the cytochrome c doubled.
对吧？
Right?
所以我们其实早就有了这些标志物，几十年前在大鼠实验里就发现了，后来也多少被重复验证过，它们告诉我们，确实存在某些关键的时间节点，这些节点并不是可有可无的，而是给我们指出了方向。
So, like, we we have these kind of markers, again, going back decades in rat studies that have been, you know, kind of been replicated to to a a degree and a variance that tell us that, again, there's certain time components that, again, aren't lost, but they're they kinda give us an idea of, like, hey.
这就是最低有效剂量。
Like, this is the minimum effective dose.
对吧？
Right?
再比如现在，作为一个不太健身的爸爸，推着女儿的婴儿车也要保持锻炼，我的最低跑步标准一直都是三十分钟。
And if and if we look at even now as the, you know, out of shape dad trying to stay in shape while pushing his daughter in a stroller, my my minimum my minimum run is always thirty minutes.
为什么呢？
Why?
就是因为同样的原因。
For that same reason.
我就是觉得，既然要出门运动，每天都出去，至少跑够三十分钟，有时候干脆跑两个三十分钟，就是这个考虑——我想着，嘿。
I'm just like, well, if I'm getting outside, like, I'm getting outside every day and at least getting thirty minutes, sometimes double with thirty and thirty for this exact reason because I'm saying, hey.
既然要跑，那就得让这时间花得值，最大化锻炼效果。
If I'm gonna do it, like, I might as well get the best bang for my buck here for development.
再看一些研究，结果通常显示，如果能达到双倍的运动量，确实能更好地提升效果。
And, again, looking at some research, what it tends to show us is that, like, again, if we can get that double effect, it tends to enhance that ability.
不过有人可能会说，哎，我听说莉迪亚他们都是跑长距离的。
Now people are gonna say, well, you know, I heard from Lydia or long runs like that.
确实，像我们之前聊过的，偶尔来一次长跑还是有必要的。
You know, there is some truth that you need the long run occasionally as we've we've talked about.
为什么？
Why?
因为我们通常会先耗尽那些容易动用的能源，接着才去训练那些更难激活的肌纤维，让它们也具备有氧能力。
Because we tend to deplete everything that we use early and, like, train the harder to recruit, you know, muscle fibers aerobically.
对吧？
Right?
其实，世界级跑者彼得·斯内尔最早通过他的运动生理学研究把这个现象带入公众视野，他研究了慢肌纤维、快肌纤维在不同距离跑步中的糖原消耗情况。
There's it is actually world class runner Peter Snell who first brought this into the public with his work as exercise physiologist where he looked at glycogen depletion rates among slow twitch, you know, fast twitch misks and fast twitch fibers on various at, you know, various lengths of run.
他发现，长跑确实会消耗一部分快肌纤维，也会动用到它们。
And he said, well, found long runs, you know, depleted some of the fast twitch fibers, and utilized some of the fast twitch fibers.
这完全没错。
Absolutely true.
但当我们考虑投入产出比的时候，线粒体发展的最大效益其实来自那些更容易激活的肌纤维。
But for when we're looking at the bang for our buck, our bang for our buck for mitochondria development are in the easier to recruit fibers.
也就是慢肌纤维和中间型纤维，如果我们能尽可能经常地保持在三十到六十分钟这个区间内运动，就能最大程度地提升这种能力。
They're in the slow twitch fibers, the mixed fibers, which if we can get in that, again, mostly thirty to six me sixty minute range as often as we can, we tend to maximize that capacity, that ability.
这就是为什么乔会先骑车再跑步，或者反过来。
This is why Jon do his doing his cycling and then running or vice versa.
这就是为什么拉迪莎选择三项全能。
This is why Radisha tripling.
这就是为什么我选择双练。
This is why me doubling.
我得说，当年我跑得很多的时候，是早晚各跑一次，但双练就是从那时候开始的，我永远忘不了。
And I should say, like, when I was running a lot, it was eight and eight, but that doubling started, and I'll never forget this.
就算在我跑得没那么多的时候，比如高中时普通学生那样，高二甚至高三每周跑五六十英里，我们还是经常做双练。
Like, even when I was, quote, unquote, you know, not running a lot, when I was a more typical, you know, high schooler, my sophomore, even junior year, you know, running 50 to 60 miles a week, We would still do a lot of split doubles.
这部分是因为教练觉得这样挺好。
Now part of that was my coach thought it was a good idea.
另一部分是因为我们只能在校园里跑，而且我们第一节课就是越野跑，因为在德克萨斯，学校会给体育项目安排专门的课时。
Part of that was we were restricted to running around our campus, and we had, you know, first period cross country because in Texas, they give you an athletic period for sport.
所以我们第一节课就是越野跑。
So, you know, we had first period cross country.
所以我们第一节课要去跑步，但第一节课才五十分钟左右。
So we were gonna run during the first period, but first period is only, I don't know, fifty minutes long.
怎么可能跑完九英里呢？
So you're not you're not gonna get a you're not gonna get a nine mile run-in then.
那怎么办？
So what do you do?
你就先跑个四五英里。
You get your four or five mile run-in.
然后去洗个澡。
You shower.
再去上剩下的课。
You go to the rest of your classes.
下午再跑另一个四五英里。
And then afternoon, you get your other four to five mile run-in.
对吧？
Right?
而且你还只能在校园里跑，我之前说过。
And and also because you were restricted to running around campus, as I said.
所以你根本不想绕着圈跑九英里，脑子都快炸了，太遭罪了。
So you didn't wanna do nine miles of loops and your brain, you know, fall apart because it was miserable.
但不管怎样，这种安排其实为后来的提升打下了基础。
So but, anyways, what that does is it sets the stage for for that that development.
我觉得我们常常误以为，等跑量达到一定水平后，才该加练两次。
And I think too often, what we do is we see doubles as the thing to do once you've reached a certain level.
对吧？
Right?
你得先跑到每周七十英里，才考虑加练第二次。
You don't double until you get to 70 miles a week.
但我觉得这才是问题所在。
And I think that that's the that's the mistake.
我觉得，就拿像帕克·瓦尔比这样的运动员来说，他们其实很早就开始交叉训练了。
I think even if we look at, you know, for example, the success of athletes like Parker Valby who have cross trained, you know, a ton.
如果你看看那些铁人三项运动员的表现，他们跑的5公里和10公里公路甚至田径场成绩都非常出色。
If you look at the success of, you know, some of the triathletes who have run some pretty dang quick five k's and 10 k's on the roads and even on the track and had, you know, some impressive performance.
为什么呢？
Why?
因为他们大量采用早晚两次训练，有些甚至一天跑三次，来提升有氧能力。
Well, they're doing a lot of doubling and in some cases tripling to get that that aerobic development.
所以我觉得，在跑步训练中，就像我们之前说的那样，
So I think in running, similar to how we said, hey.
你可以用持续上坡来为这种有氧发展打基础，
You can use continuous hills to set the stage for this aerobic development.
同样，也可以用短时间的早晚两次训练，比如每次三十分钟。
We can do the same thing with shorter doubles that, you know, again, thirty and thirty.
三十分钟是什么意思？
What was thirty and thirty?
我上高中的时候，那相当于每天跑四到五英里。
When I was a high schooler, it was four to five miles.
对吧？
Right?
结果就是这样，没办法。
And and that's just just how how it turned out.
我特别喜欢这些训练方式彼此之间产生的那种协同效应。
So I I love the kind of synergy of how these things all all mix together.
关于这种双跑，我还想说一点，最后提一下：如果你回看高中时，像肯尼亚人那样双跑，有时候他们跑得很慢。
And the other thing that I'll I'll say, and I'll end with this on this kinda doubling part, is if you looked at back in high school, if you look at how the Kenyans, as you alluded to, sometimes do this doubling, is sometimes they were slow.
但有时候，当你跑三十分钟，或者五英里时，你就会想：
But other times, if you have a thirty minute run or, you know, a five mile run, what tends to happen is you're like, you know what?
这可不是十英里的长跑。
This isn't a 10 mile run.
也没跑多远。
This isn't that far.
所以第一英里可能会轻松一点。
So the first mile might be a little bit easy.
然后你突然加速，心里想：哎，只剩两到三英里了。
And then you pick it up, and then you're like, oh, I've only got two to three miles left.
既然这样，不如干脆一鼓作气冲完。
Like, I might as well get this done.
于是你越跑越快，越跑越快。
And you pick it up, and you pick it up.
作为高中生，我那时候经常这样，夏天跑得不多，但总会做一次往返两英里半的训练。
And, you know, as a high schooler, I remember this all the time is, you know, you know, in the summer when I wasn't running a ton, but I'd have this two and a half mile out and back run.
那条路单程两英里半，到前面那条特别繁忙的大街为止——我根本不想穿过那个十字路口。
It was, like, two and a half miles, you know, to essentially the front of the or to the busy street, the really super busy street I didn't wanna go through go through the intersection.
所以我跑到那边两英里半，停下，转身，再跑回来两英里半。
So I'd run the two and a half miles there, stop and turn around, and run the two and a half miles back.
结果每次都是，去的时候相对轻松自在。
And what inevitably happened is the two and a half miles out was relatively relaxed.
可回来的时候，心里就忍不住说：嘿。
And then the back, you're like, hey.
我就只想赶紧回家。
I'm just I'm just trying to get home.
你就这么提速，再提速，我知道离家还有一英里。
And you just pick it up, pick it up, and I knew where the one mile mark to home was.
我就想，干脆提速试试，最后一英里能跑多快——那时候还没GPS，啥都得靠感觉。
And I was like, you know, I'll just pick it up and see what this last mile is because these were the days before GPS told you everything.
跑完最后一英里，时间通常能进六分钟以内，感觉还挺不错，毕竟总共才五英里。
And, you know, you'd finish that last mile somewhere in the sub six, you know, feeling pretty good because it was only a five mile run.
那你能怎么办呢？
And and and it and what do you do?
你得在不同有氧强度区间里切换着跑，这样身体才能得到多样化的刺激，持续提升耐力。
You're you're working through this kind of, like, range of aerobic development paces, that gives you, again, a slightly different stimulus so that you can keep improving this ability.
这一点也特别重要。
And that's really important also to remember.
对吧？
Right?
我记得九十年代到两千年初，大家一直在争论到底是单跑还是双跑更好。
I I remember in the nineties and early two thousands, there's this big debate between, you know, bigs big singles, like or doubles.
对吧？
Right?
但事实上，如果你看看利德亚德的实际训练方式，就会发现他培养出的那些新西兰冠军，做的都是三跑。
And the truth of the matter is when you look at Lidyard and you look at his actual practice, it actually produced the champions that he, you know, presented to us in New Zealand was they did triples.
对吧？
Right?
他们确实做三跑。
They did triples.
他们早餐后慢跑三十分钟，午餐后又慢跑三十分钟，然后下班后进行长时间、高强度的稳态配速跑，不管你怎么叫它，反正就是阈值跑。
They jogged fifth thirty minutes after breakfast, jogged thirty minutes after lunch, and then did the long, hard, steady state tempo, whatever you wanna call it, threshold running in the evening after work.
人们常常忽略这一点，因为他不把早餐和午餐后的那两次三十分钟慢跑算作训练里程。
People often forget about that because he did not count those jog those thirty minute jogs after the meals, you know, breakfast and lunch, as training miles.
所以这些里程并没有被计入他那套每周一百英里的训练体系里。
So they weren't accounted for in that 100 miles a week paradigm that he set.
所以当我们看上世纪初科罗拉多或UP队的成功，他们靠的是大强度单次跑、中长距离跑，或者多次长跑训练。
So when we look at, say, the success of, say, Colorado or UP in the early two thousands with these big singles or medium long runs or, you know, multiple long run interventions.
这并不是要贬低那些方法。
It's not that, you know, to take detract from that.
那些中长距离跑或长跑确实是重要的刺激信号，但就像史蒂夫提到的，它们也会造成身体分解，大量耗尽糖原。
Like, that's those longer medium long runs or long runs, they are big signaling events, but they also have a catabolic or structural breakdown, as Steve alluded to, with a lot of glycogen depletion.
所以恢复起来需要更长时间，才能再次产生有效的刺激。
So it takes a lot more time to bounce back to get another signaling event.
我们现在明白，关键是让身体能有效吸收和消化尽可能多的刺激信号，这样才能提升表现，而不是把自己拖垮。
And what we know now is you just need as many signaling events as the body can productively interpret and absorb and digest to get you better and not corrode you.
对跑步者来说，一天大概三次就是极限了，这是我们之前讨论过的。
And the threshold is about three in a day at what we've talked about for runners.
但对骑车和游泳的人来说，情况不一样，因为他们没有那种冲击力。
Cyclists, swimmers, it's a different ballpark because you don't have the pounding effect.
对吧？
Right?
你没有那种压力和冲击。
You don't have the the stress impact.
但对于跑者来说，像帕克·瓦利或我自己做的那种所谓的交叉训练，只要是为了提升有氧能力，也能起到信号作用。
But for runners, the signaling effect can also be, like, with Parker Valvey or even myself, right, quote, unquote, cross training if it's for general aerobic development.
这真的很难理解，因为在西方，我们总是把一切套进配速这个框架里。
So this is really hard to wrap around because in the West, we also went everything to this matrix of pace.
配速够快吗？
Oh, was the pace fast enough?
这根本不重要。
It doesn't matter.
只要达到某个阈值，就能刺激心肌产生信号，促进适应。
Like, it just needs to be at a a certain threshold for some of this development stuff to spur the myocardial signaling to happen.
实际上，速度可以很慢，这还挺让人惊讶的。
And it actually can be pretty slow, which is impressive.
对吧？
Right?
在这种情况下，慢一点反而更好，因为这样能让信号激活发生，而不会造成组织的分解。
Slower sometimes is better in this context because it allows for the signaling event to happen without the catabolic breakdown of the tissues.
我们之前聊了很多关于有氧能力的培养，也就是为后续提升有氧功率打基础。
Now we've talked a lot about the aerobic development or capacity and setting the stage, you know, essentially for then translating to aerobic power.
但现在的有氧功率，跟那个完全不是一回事。
And aerobic power now is much different than that.
一旦你建立了这种能力，有了足够的线粒体储备——顺便说一句，还有一个过时但还存在的观念，就是线粒体发展是‘用进废退’的。
So once you have this capacity built up or these reservoirs of mitochondrial and we know that too, remind reminding, an outdated paradigm that still exists is mitochondrial development is a use it or lose it phenomena.
实际上，线粒体可以很快增长，也可能很快退化。
It actually can be developed really quickly, and it can also recede really quickly.
你根本不需要花几个月甚至更久去做基础训练，那种线性思维觉得必须长时间磨才能见效，其实不是这样的。
You don't need these months and months and months of base training that, you know, the linear paradigm thought where it's like, oh, this takes forever to build, and we gotta spend all this time doing it.
只要你懂这个原理，进展完全可以快很多。
It's like, can accelerate this pretty quick if you know this.
所以当你开始转向更具体的有氧功率训练时，这时候就必须精准控制配速，同时严格把握之间的恢复间隔。
So when you start to translate to more specific aerobic power work, then that's really when you wanna get razor point precision on pace that you're trying to run as well as being very disciplined about the recovery intervals in between.
哦，Steve，你先说。
So I'll give a quick oh, Steve, go ahead.
你接着讲。
Jump in.
不用了。
No.
我本来想说，我觉得这一点很重要。
I was I was just gonna say there that I think this is you know what?
为了帮听众理清思路，毕竟我们平时就是这样做的。
To kinda summarize for the listener who might be a little bit lost because that's what we do here.
你需要先培养线粒体，然后再教它们如何高效地工作。
It's like, you need to develop the mitochondria before teaching them how to work efficiently and optimally.
说得真好。
Oh, well said.
我们刚才说的，其实就是这个意思。
And and that's what we're getting at here when we say, hey.
我们得先把双倍能力培养起来，等等这些。
We need the doubles developed, blah blah blah.
接下来乔恩会说，好吧。
And now Jon's gonna say, okay.
我们现在有这么多资源了。
We've got all these here.
那接下来该怎么训练他们发挥出最佳水平呢？
Like, now how do we train them to use the best?
行了。
Alright.
乔恩，你来说吧。
Go for it, Jon.
我在波特兰州立大学带的一位女子800米跑者，现在正参加波特兰田径节的比赛。
So I have a an 800 meter runner female runner at Portland State who's continuing her season at Portland track festival.
对吧？
Right?
所以赛季结束后一个月，她一直想跑进两分十秒以内。
So a month after the season with, you know, an I you know, a desire to run kind of the low two tens.
对吧？
Right?
两分十二，两分十。
Two twelve, two ten.
她赛季结束时的成绩是两分十二，这可是她年轻时的水平。
She finished off the season you know, she has a two twelve credential and background when she was younger.
距离她上次跑出这个成绩，已经两年了。
It's been two years since she's done that.
赛季刚开始的时候，她800米跑了两分二十四。
And, you know, she started off the season running two twenty four in the 800.
对吧？
Right?
她这个项目，说白了就是从零开始重新带起来的。
Because she's kind of a bring back from the dead project.
她这个常规赛季最后跑出了两分十七秒的成绩。
And she finished, you know, running two seventeen for the regular season here.
不过在高原举行的联盟锦标赛最后一场比赛里，她六百米分段跑到了一分三十六秒，这是个人最好成绩。
I mean but in her final race at the conference meet at altitude, she went through 600 at one thirty six, which is a PR.
对吧？
Right?
这就让人看到了希望，也许只要在有氧能力上做些针对性训练，
And so it gives you hope that, hey.
我们就能让她在六月前后，有机会冲击两分十秒以内的成绩。
Maybe with enough development here, specific development in aerobic power, we can, you know, put her in a space where she can knock on that low two ten door here, you know, at the end of or beginning of June.
那我们具体该怎么做呢？
So how are we doing that?
对吧？
Right?
战术安排，细节把控。
The tactics, the x and o's.
我们发现她需要在提升整体线粒体功能的同时，也加强有氧耐力的专项训练。
So what we identified with her was she needed a little bit more general mitochondrial development while also coupling that with specific aerobic power, development as well.
也就是说，我们采用的是三天为一个周期的训练模式。
So what that means in practice is all my, say, three day cycles that we operate on.
我们实际上是在同时进行三个并行的三天周期，也就是九天一个大循环，之后再安排一天休息。
So we are doing this three day cycle of three concurrent three day cycles, so nine day cycles plus then a rest day.
对吧？
Right?
如果你愿意，也可以算成十天。
So you could say it's ten days if you'd like.
但本质上，每三天的轮换都非常简单。
But, essentially, what we're doing is every three days, the rollover is very simple.
对吧？
Right?
第一天是双练，我们会安排一场所谓的耐力容量或有氧能力提升训练。
Day one is gonna be a double where there'll be a a what we call an endurance capacity or aerobic power capacity developmental workout.
那这种针对有氧能力的训练具体是怎么安排的呢？
And so what does that developmental workout look like for that aerobic specific aerobic capacity?
结构其实很简单。
It's very simple construction.
对吧？
Right?
做三组600米的分段跑。
It's three sets of 600 meter breakdowns.
300米、200米、100米。
300, two hundred, one hundred.
对吧？
Right?
之后再做三组600米分段跑，每组包含五次400米，速度按她的基础耐力水平来定。
Plus after that, three sets of 600 meter breakdowns, five times 400 meters at what is deemed her general or endurance capacity pace.
目标是回到600米分段跑时，300米、200米和100米之间的休息时间保持在90秒。
So the goal is to return to the 600 meter breakdowns starting off at ninety seconds rest between the three hundred, two hundred, 100 reps.
配速保持不变。
The pace stays the same.
对吧？
Right?
所以在这个十天的周期里，我们会重复做两次。
So we're gonna revisit this through this ten day cycle twice.
一开始，每组之间休息90秒，300米配速是49到50秒，200米是32到30秒，100米大概在14秒左右。
So in the beginning, it's ninety seconds recovery, and the pace is 49 to 50 for the 300, 32 to 30 for the 214 flat or so for the 100.
她第一次做的时候，正好达到了目标配速。
And at first, the first time she did it, it was she hit the paces.
她能完成，但90秒的休息时间已经卡在极限边缘，拼了又拼。
She was able to do it, but ninety seconds was right on that edge pushing it, pushing it, pushing it.
对吧？
Right?
有氧能力训练就是重复跑400米，配速76秒，每组之间休息两分钟。
The aerobic capacity work is just repeat quarters at 76 off of, you know, two minutes recovery.
所以恢复时间要稍微长一点，因为经过那场高度密集的600米训练后，身体里积累了不少代谢废物，需要更彻底地清理一下。
So a little bit longer because it's kinda more of a flush after developing some metabolic byproducts in the system with that really condensed 600 meter breakdown.
下一次她再做时，恢复时间就缩短到八十秒。
So the next time she does it, she does it at with eighty seconds recovery.
单次训练之间减少十秒恢复，听起来不多，但在我们这种追求特定功率适应的生理时间尺度下，这已经是相当大的调整了。
So ten seconds less recovery within us within the reps of a set doesn't sound like a lot, but on for the physiological time horizons we're dealing with to develop a specific role of power, it's actually a good chunk of time.
对吧？
Right?
因为这个差距会被放大。
Because it's it's magnified.
所以关键问题是，她能不能在更短的恢复时间内，依然保持住目标配速——这就是我们衡量她是否真正提升了有氧功率的依据。
And so the goal is can she still hit the paces off less recovery is the proxy of development that we are using to see if she's getting, quote, unquote, more aerobic power.
我们已经固定了她的功率输出，但明确告诉她：这组600米间歇，你必须达到这些配速。
Because we we stabilize the power up, but we said, here are the paces you need to hit in the 600 meter breakdown.
接下来的训练，我们会根据她这次的表现，再把恢复时间缩短十到十五秒。
And now what we're doing is then the next session, right, we'll then chop it down in our ten to fifteen seconds based on her response in, you know, in this session.
这正是她反馈的内容。
And that was, what her feedback has been.
对吧？
Right?
我来复述一下她最近一次训练后的感受。
Like, I'll redo her feedback from the the most recent session she did.
她说，这次的身体耐受度比上星期五好太多了。
She was my body tolerated this one way better than last Friday.
虽然还是挺累的，但第一组的时候，双腿感觉像在飞一样。
It was still hard, but the first set, my legs felt like they were flying.
第二组确实有点吃力，但没上星期那么难受。
The second, I was, quote, unquote, hurting, but not as much as last week.
第三组的表现出乎意料地稳定。
And the third one, was surprisingly consistent.
我知道自己没法再快了，但也没怎么慢下来。
You know, I couldn't go any faster, but I also wasn't slowing down much.
节奏完全跟上了。
Was right on the paces.
完美。
Perfect.
这就是有氧训练，正是我们想要的发展方向。
That's aerobic that is the developmental trajectory we want.
这简直太出色了。
That is freaking phenomenal.
对吧？
Right?
有时候，不需要彻底改变训练方式，也能看到进步。
And sometimes you don't have to do just a wildly different, workout construction to see progress.
你可以回到像这种600米分段训练这样非常简单的模式，我们已经看到了进步，这会帮助她建立起特定的能力或功率储备，从而顺利应对即将到来的600米和800米比赛——目标分别是96秒和1分36秒。
You can go back to a very simple workout construction like 600 meter breakdowns here, and we're seeing that progress that's gonna build her that specific capacity or specific, power availability to then be able to, one, get through the 600 and the 800 race that's coming up at ninety six seconds, so one thirty six.
目标就是让她达到这个状态，然后最后200米能跑出34秒。
And the goal and the target is, right, to then get her to that space and then have the last 200 be at 34.
她能做到的。
And she can do that.
对吧？
Right?
两分十到十一秒。
That's two ten to 11.
但以前的问题是，她最后400米会突然崩掉，跑到四十四二。
So but the problem was, like, before, right, her last 400 would go blow up to, like, forty forty two.
对吧？
Right?
所以这其实是有氧能力的问题。
So we so it's a problem of aerobic power.
不是能不能保持配速的问题。
It wasn't a problem of can you run the pace.
这才是关键所在。
It's a problem.
你能在那个速度阈值下，维持两分十秒的输出吗？
Can you sustain that output at that threshold of speed for two minutes and ten seconds?
你能撑到九十六秒。
You could do it through ninety six seconds.
所以现在我们得搭一座桥，去连接最后那三十秒，或者三十四秒。我们要通过不断重复这种训练模式来实现。
So now we have to basically build a bridge to the last thirty seconds, thirty four seconds, and this trajectory of repeating this phenomena is how we're doing it.
所以对她来说，我们现在做的就是这个训练。
And so for her, it's we're doing this workout.
对吧？
Right?
然后下午我们还会安排一次强度很低的举重训练，再加上有氧交叉训练，比如游泳，或者椭圆机、动感单车之类的。
But then we're also coming back in the afternoon and doing a really low key lift and then aerobic cross training activity, swim, you know, elliptical bike.
她可以选择跑步或者慢跑，时长在三十到四十五分钟之间。
Her choice of the modality could be a run, a jog, for anywhere from thirty to forty five minutes.
就这样每周一重复做，或者说每天都重复做，久而久之身体就会形成稳定的适应信号，这样第二天只需要轻松完成双倍量的训练就行了。
And you're just doing that every Monday over and over and over again or every day one, I should say, over and over and over again, and it starts to create enough consistent signaling that then the other workloads, right, the day after is just an easy double.
早上跑一次，就是普通的跑步。
One run one's a a run-in the morning.
下午再跑一次，或者做交叉训练，时间控制在三十到六十分钟之间。
One's a run or cross train, again, within the threshold of thirty to sixty minutes in the afternoon.
第三天就换一种速度训练，比如耐力型的 workouts。
And then you repeat then a different type of speed, yeah, endurance workout on day three.
下午再搭配一次交叉训练和力量训练，通过这种持续稳定的微信号，我们才看到这样的进展。
Again, with met with and coupled with another cross training activity and lift in the afternoon afterwards that we're creating enough steady consistent micro signaling events that we're now seeing this trajectory and this development happening.
我就是这么告诉她的，事情就是这样发展的——这也是我为什么这么喜欢科学。
And that's what I told her what happened when we you know, that's why I love science.
你跟人说，嘿。
You tell someone, hey.
如果我们这么做，就能预期到这样的结果。
If we do it like this, this is what we can expect to happen.
当然，你得把睡眠、营养、补水这些基础工作做好，诸如此类的。
If, probably, you know, you you do your part with the sleep, the nutrition, you know, the hydration, blah blah blah blah blah.
现在这一切已经开始发生了，信心在增强，能力也在提升。我很期待接下来两周她能走到哪一步，以及在波特兰田径节的正式比赛中，她会呈现出怎样的状态。
And then it's now happening, and so confidence is growing, ability is growing, and, you know, I'm excited to see where in the next two weeks she's able to take it and then what her expression will be on race day at the target race here at Portland Track Festival.
太棒了。
I love it.
这真是个特别好的例子。
That's, that's such a good example.
这让我想起科瓦教练在我们课程里说过的一句话：跑两三年轻松长跑，根本不会带来任何效果。
And, again, it reminds me of a quote quote from, Canova and our our course that essentially says, after after two to three easy after two to three years, easy long run doesn't produce any effect.
到了这个阶段，想提升有氧能力，唯一的办法就是提高强度。
The only way for increasing the aerobic power at that point is the intensity.
他这话的意思，其实就是乔恩说的——必须做高强度训练，同时灵活调整休息，才能维持住这种强度，这才是下一步发展的关键。
And what he means by that is exactly what Jon said is we have to do the intense work and play around with the rest to sustain that intensity, and that's, like, the next step for this this development.
你刚才说得特别到位。
And I think that's what what you get at perfectly.
我特别喜欢做的一件事，举个例子，针对5000米运动员，我会经常调整休息时间，来刺激有氧能力的提升。
One of the things that I love to do this, maybe I'll give you example for, for for five k athletes, is I love to play around with the rest periods to develop this aerobic power.
我经常喜欢这么做，就是安排一些间歇训练或者交替跑，一开始休息时间长一点。
So often what I I like to do is, do, you know, either intervals or alternations where we start off with longer rest periods.
比如，我们会跑四英里，交替进行400米的五公里配速和1200米的匀速跑。
So example, we might do, you know, four miles of alternating between 400 at five k pace and 1,200, like, steady.
然后随着时间推移，我们会调整，比如说：好吧。
So and then over time, what we do is we say, okay.
目标不是让400米跑得更快。
The goal isn't to get faster at the 400.
而是每次都要稍微延长一下保持这个强度的能力。
The goal is to extend that ability a little bit every time.
从400米加1200米，慢慢变成600米加900米，再到700米加900米，然后是800米加800米。
So we go from 400, 1,200 to doing 600,000 to 600,000 to 700, 900, 700, 900 to 800, 800, then a 800.
你注意看，所谓五公里配速这部分，其实一点都没变。
And what you're looking at is the pace of the, quote, unquote, five k thing doesn't change.
始终保持在一个稳定的节奏上。
It stays sustained.
你只是在延长这段距离，同时缩短恢复时间，这就能看出效果了：哦，原来如此。
You're just extending that and decreasing the recovery portion, which gives you the indicator of, oh, okay.
我能更长时间保持这个配速，不会掉速，也不会因为疲劳加剧而崩掉，诸如此类的情况。
I'm able to sustain this for a longer period of time with without falling off the pace, without that fatigue growing so that that I fall off the pace, whatever have you.
有时候还会提高稳跑段的配速，这说明我恢复得更快了。
And sometimes with even increasing the speed of that steady, which gives us an indicator of, oh, I'm recovering faster.
我总是能察觉到这一点。
And I would always know it.
当你做这种交替训练时，我最关注的就是五公里强度段和稳跑段之间的过渡阶段。
And and when you do these alternations, the thing I would always look for is this, is the transition period between that that five k effort.
比如说，你跑完一个800米的五公里配速，接着跑800米的稳跑。
Let's say you're going, again, 800 at five k and then 800 steady.
这个过渡过程是什么样的？
What does that transition period look like?
是在五公里配速的800米结束后，直接切换到稳跑吗？
Were they in the 800 at five k pace and then get into the steady?
如果他们从五公里配速慢下来，变成快走，再过渡到匀速跑，我就知道他们还没准备好。
If it is a slow down to a quick walk and then into the steady, I know they're not they're not ready.
对吧？
Right?
如果能直接从五公里配速切换到稳定的巡航速度，那我就知道他们在这个配速下恢复得不错。
If it's straight into five k pace into a pretty quick cruise, then I know they're recovering at that pace.
对吧？
Right?
他们的有氧能力正在提升。
And their aerobic power is developing.
你也可以不用交替跑，用同样的方式训练。
You could do the same thing again, not using alternations.
我经常给高中生安排的是400米跑，先以五公里配速跑400米，一开始休息300米慢跑，然后减到200米慢跑，最后改成200米放松跑。
And what I've I use for high school kids a lot was four hundreds, where I do four hundreds at five k pace with, at first, maybe a a 300 meter jog, and then we'd go to a 200 meter jog, and then we'd go to a 200 meter float.
对吧？
Right?
有时候，甚至只跑一百米的慢跑或放松。
And then sometimes, you know, sometimes even a 100 meter jog or float.
但我们始终保持同样的配速。
And we'd keep the pace the same.
对吧？
Right?
我们会说，嘿。
We'd say, hey.
去跑个七组二十米之类的，通常都是分组进行。
Go run 70 twos or whatever in often in sets.
你知道的。
You know?
我们会安排三组，每组六个四百米，中间穿插二百米放松，每组控制在七十二秒左右，看情况而定。
We're gonna run three sets of six by 400 with 200 float, you know, in 72, whatever it is.
那时候的判断标准还是，你恢复得怎么样。
And the indicator there was, again, you know, how are you handling the recovery?
随着恢复能力提升，我们实际上是在延长专项耐力，或者说是提升了有氧能力。
And as the recovery improves, what we get is we get essentially extension in our specific endurance or correlated to aerobic power.
这就是关键指标。
And that's the marker.
我觉得这跟我们通常的做法有点不一样，我们往往想着怎么跑得更快。
And I think this is this is a little bit different than what we often see, which is we try and progress things by getting faster.
所以呢，就是这么回事。
So it's it's like, okay.
就是那种老式的四百米间歇训练。
It's the old banister four hundreds.
一开始做十组四百米，每组控制在68秒左右。
We're gonna start out with ten four hundreds, and we're gonna run-in 68.
到训练结束时，就能跑到60秒了。
And then by the end of this training period, we're gonna run them in 60.
这种练法当然也有它的用处，但在我看来，要提升有氧能力，这并不是最有效的方式。
Now that has a place, but to me, that's not that's not as effective a way to develop aerobic power.
这更像是一种耐受力或者抗压能力。
That's more of a, like, a a tolerance or resistance kinda capacity.
对吧？
Right?
或者说是提升无氧耐受力之类的。
Or developing into some anaerobic tolerance, etcetera, etcetera.
这正是我特别推崇的一种方法。
And that's that's, again, one of my favorite ways.
对于高中生，我特别喜欢把间歇训练拆成若干组，让他们能持续承受住强度。
And with high school kids, I love breaking things at those intervals into sets so that they can sustain and handle it.
没错。
Exactly.
这其实回到了我们常犯的一个错误，我刚当教练那会儿也经常这样——老话说得好，同时追两只兔子，一只也抓不到。
Like, it goes back to the error that we often make, and I made a lot early on in my coaching career was, you know, when you chase two rabbits, you catch none as the old Russian saying goes.
对吧？
Right?
如果你一边想加快节奏，一边又想缩短恢复时间，那肯定会很吃力。
And so if you're trying to push the pace and minimize the recovery, you're it's gonna be a rough go.
你这是想同时抓两只兔子。
You're you're trying to chase two rabbits.
所以你必须二选一。
So you have to pick one or the other.
对吧？
Right?
说到有氧能力，我通常的理解是，你想要提升的那个能力，就是你最先提到的那部分。
And when we talk about aerobic power, the way I always think about it is the quality you're trying to enhance is the thing that you say first.
有氧能力。
So aerobic power.
所以我们得重点练有氧方面。
So we wanna work on the aerobic side.
这意味着我们要控制休息时间，保持稳定的配速，或者预设好配速，让运动员自己都说：‘教练，我感觉特别好。’
So that means we're playing and manipulating the rest at a steady set pace or paces are predetermined that even the athletes say, oh, I feel great, coach.
我感觉特别好。
I'm feeling great.
我们没必要跑得更快。
Well, we don't need to run faster.
我感觉好，那就说明状态不错。
If I'm feeling great, then I'm great.
你感觉很好？
You're feeling great?
明白了。
Okay.
咱们缩短一下这些组之间的休息时间。
Let's take less recovery between these reps or these sets.
对吧？
Right?
别加快速度。
Not push the pace.
当我们练速度耐力这类项目时，重点是要把速度提上去，耐力部分只是附带考虑。
So when we work on with, say, something where it's speed endurance, okay, well, then the speed component is the thing we're wanting to push with a secondary understanding of the endurance element.
所以你可以这么说，行。
So you can say, okay.
很好。
Great.
休息时间我们保持不变，但每趟跑的速度可以尽量快一点。
We're gonna keep the rest here, but we're gonna run we we can push how fast we're running on the reps.
就像这样。
Like, yeah.
我常跟运动员说，做速度耐力训练，比如50米跑，对800米选手来说，典型的做法就是以400米比赛配速，或者更快的速度来跑。
And I'll often say for athletes when do a speed endurance type thing, let's say if it's one fifties, it's gonna be, you know, example for 800 meter runners is a speed endurance workout might be one fifties at 400 meter race pace or faster and or faster.
有这个恢复时间，你完全可以跑得更快，而且我们不会缩短休息。
You can run faster with this recovery, and we're not shortening it.
也不会做任何调整。
We're not changing it.
我们就保持在两分钟或者两分半钟，反正就是这个范围。
We're gonna just keep it here at two minutes or two and a half minutes or what have you.
当职业运动员做到这个强度时，你通常会发现，他们看起来是在同时提升两者。
Now when you get to that space with professionals, what you often see, right, is it looks like they're pushing both.
对我们普通人来说，要是照着他们发在YouTube上或者每周训练计划里的配速去跑，再加上非常
Because for us mere mortals, doing things at the paces that they put up on, you know, their YouTube or on, you know, a workout of the week type thing and coupled with the very
短暂的恢复
acute recovery
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