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欢迎回来，或者欢迎收听《Oncoaching》播客。
And welcome back or welcome to the Oncoaching podcast.
我是史蒂夫·马格努斯，像往常一样，我的好友兼同事约翰·马库斯也一起来了。
I'm Steve Magnus joined as always by my good friend and colleague, John Marcus.
约翰，最近怎么样， Oven
John, what's going on, Oven
烤箱很热，定时器刚响了。
is hot and the timer just went off.
是时候满足大家的期待了，今天给大家来点美味的。
It is time to give the people what they want, something delicious today.
天哪。
Oh, man.
我们有美味的东西吗？
Do we have something delicious?
我们可能有那个神奇的锻炼方案。
We have maybe the magic bullet workout.
哦，明白了。
Oh, okay.
但在那之前，我想让大家知道他们错过了什么。
But before we get there, just want to tell people what they're missing out on.
约翰，我们刚刚在学者俱乐部推出了学者计划的新内容。
John, we just introduced a new part of the magical scholar program in the scholar clubhouse.
你来跟听众说说，他们现在错过了什么吗？
Do you wanna tell the listeners what they're now missing
错过了？
out on?
太棒了。
Freaking awesome.
学者读书会，现在正式上线了，而且是多个读书会。
So the scholar book clubs in clubs plural has just launched.
这些读书会由学者们带领，大家一起协作、探讨、研读同样的材料，同步学习，共同成长。
So what this is is scholar led book clubs where we are all kinda collaborating, examining, studying, reading through the same material at the same time, and going through the journey of learning together.
我和史蒂夫办了一个读书会。
So Steve and I have a book club.
当然是《跑步的科学》读书会。
Obviously, it's the Science of Running book club.
我们现在正在读托尼·本森和赫维尔·雷的《与最佳者同行》，重点看第五、六、七章，讲的是长跑的主要训练要素、有氧和无氧训练部分。
And right now, we're going over Run with the Best by Tony Benson and Herve Ray in their chapters five, six, and seven, which is Major Training Components to Distance Running, Aerobic and Anaerobic Training Components.
其实挺简单的。
And it's pretty simple.
对吧？
Right?
就是大家怎么一起参与，达成共识，从这些有价值的材料里获得不同的见解。
It's like, how do we all collaborate and get on the same page and get different insights into really valuable text?
因为学者计划里有一部分叫‘对齐项目’，就是让学者们找出对教练、训练和跑者最有价值的资料。
Because part of the scholar program is what we call the alignment project, where our scholars identify really valuable text to coaching, training, working with people and runners.
现在我们终于能一起深入探讨了。
And now we're actually exploring them together.
所以我们有不同的学员主动牵头，各自选择一个主题，比如：嘿。
So we have different scholars who are leading up different ones, self selected, like, hey.
我想深入研究这个主题。
I wanna look at this theme or topic.
我想探讨这个主题和内容。
I wanna look at this theme and topic.
目前在跑步科学这个项目里，我们正在研究跑步者能量系统的基础知识。
So right now in the science of running, we're looking at the basics of energy system development for runners.
所以我们才从这本书开始。
That's why we're starting off this text.
接下来我们会一起讨论，决定下个月要看哪本书，以此类推。
Then we're gonna co collaborate and decide what the next text will be for the next month, so on and so forth.
这其实就是你的秘诀。
Like, this is your hack.
真正让你进步的关键是持续学习，而不是参加什么培训班，也不是靠周末花三四天坐在教室里拿个证书。
This is your secret sauce to getting better is continuous learning, not a clinic, not some, hey, I got a certification for sitting in a chair for three, four days on a weekend.
这能持续为你提供养分，让你不断进步。
It is constant nourishment to get you better all the time.
我太喜欢了。
I love it.
如果你曾经读过一些书，心里想着：哎，我不太懂这个。
If you've ever wanted to nerd out on the books that you read and said, Hey, I don't know.
我搞不明白这部分。
I don't understand this.
或者你只是想更深入地研究某个话题。
Or maybe like, I'd like to dive into this deeper.
这就是你的平台。
This is your platform.
这是你的
This is your your
如果史蒂夫真搞了个‘买我的书俱乐部’，专门讲解他的书，你也不用惊讶。
And don't be surprised if a buy my books club starts by Steve, where he just goes and explains his books.
是的
Yeah.
你知道的，这事说不定真能成。
You you know, it could happen.
但你知道吗？
But you know what?
你会看到那些没被写进书里的幕后内容，还有我事后希望当初能加进去的那些东西。
You're gonna get you're gonna get the behind the scenes of all the junk that didn't make it into the books or that I wish maybe did afterwards.
所以，我们这儿主打的就是幕后花絮。
So, you know, we're we're all about the behind the scenes here.
别忘了啊。
So don't forget.
加入学者计划的另一个理由是，真的让人特别期待。
The other reason to join the scholar program is super excited.
我们每个月都有线上培训讲座，形式是圆桌讨论。
We have our monthly training talks lives where it's a roundtable discussion.
来自世界各地的顶尖教练，都是我们的学员，会聚在一起交流。
Some of the best and brightest coaches from around the world who are scholars come and get together.
这个月的主题是八月底的‘越野训练的平衡之道’——如何科学搭配山坡跑、配速跑、长跑、速度训练、力量训练和技术练习，帮助越野跑者在比赛日发挥最佳状态。
And this month, our theme is, for the end of August, is Finding the Winning Balance to the Cross Country Training Puzzle, Methods of Combining Hills, Race Pace, Long Run, Speed, Strength Training, and Technique Work to Set Up Harriers for Race Day Success.
我们的学员、去年带领谢尼山高中男子越野队全国排名第二的主教练肖恩·奥戴，将率先开讲并主持这次分享。
And our very own scholar, the head coach of the Cheyenne Mountain High School boys cross country team that was ranked and finished number two in the nation last year, Sean O'Day is kicking off and leading it.
史蒂夫和我俩就坐在一旁认真做笔记。
Steve and I are just sitting back and taking notes.
这难道不让人特别兴奋吗？
Like, how cool is that?
你能听到全美最出色的高中教练之一，亲口讲述他是如何把这些训练要素巧妙结合，最大限度地提升队员的水平。
You get to hear from one of the best high school coaches in the country about how he applies all these different ingredients to help create and develop his Harriers to the best of their ability.
是的。
Yeah.
这对我们来说，真是一次难得的学习机会。
I mean, that's just a wonderful learning moment for us.
这难道不让人兴奋吗？
So how cool is it?
我们参与这个过程，也是为了提升自己的教练水平。
We're in this process to up our game as coaches as well.
别光听我和约翰说，
So don't just listen to John and I.
多听听国内顶尖教练们的分享。
Listen to some of the best coaches in the country.
对，快来加入吧。
Yes, join.
快来加入，快来加入，快来加入，快来加入，快来加入。
Join, join, join, join, join.
每天不到一美元。
Less than a dollar a day.
性价比简直太高了。
It's an incredible value.
对。
Yes.
所以要投资自己。
So invest in yourself.
说到投资自己和锻炼，今天我们来聊聊一个特别的话题——Flux Training，就是那个神奇的高效训练法？
So speaking of investing in yourself and workouts, today we've got a special topic, Flux Training, the Magic Bullet workout?
这里加个问号？
Question mark there?
我也不太确定。
I I I don't know.
那我们先从这个说起。
So let's start with this.
在训练和锻炼中，我们通常都熟悉那些常规项目，对吧？
So often I think what happens is in training and workouts, we know the standard ones, right?
比如标准的间歇训练，还有八组K、四组英里、十组400米这些。
We know the standard interval training and the eight by K, the four by mile, the 10 by 400.
我们平时的间歇训练通常是跑完一组就停下休息，可能稍微慢跑放松一下。
And our standard interval training is kind of, you run the repeat, then you stop, you rest, maybe you jog around a little bit.
但我们很少认真考虑休息和恢复的部分。
But we don't really concern too much about the rest and recovery.
我们只关注跑的那几组，比如400米、800米，反正就是那些标准距离。
We're just like, the emphasis is on the repeat itself, the 400, 800 mile, whatever have you.
但Flux训练就有点不一样。
Well, Flux Training is a little bit different.
它会特别关注高强度训练和恢复阶段之间的互动，甚至利用恢复期来调整刺激方式，改变训练效果。
It's when we start to take into account how the effort, the hard effort, and the recovery or off portion of it interact, and often taking advantage of that off portion to change the stimulus and shift the adaptation.
这方面其实有好几种不同的做法。
There's a couple different ways we can look at this.
如果追溯源头，可以看看自然状态下的法特莱克训练。
Going all the way back, you could look at natural fartlek training.
对吧？
Right?
过去可不是那种跑一分钟、慢走一会儿、再跑一分钟的模式，而是利用周围环境，根据地形变化调整配速，对吧？
Which historically wasn't the, you know, go run a minute, go jog, go run a minute, etcetera, but it was taking advantage of your environment and varying the paces based on different environmental constraints, right?
比如从全力冲上坡，到坡顶保持稳定，再慢跑下坡，等回到平地时又加速，这种自然的节奏变化让你不会只是硬跑一阵然后慢走恢复。
And going from pure sprinting up a hill, maybe if you encountered it, to steady on the top of it, to jogging down the other side, to picking it up once you get to the flat ground again, there was this natural kind of variation where you used, you didn't just have this hard and fast, hard running, then recovery jogging or off time.
另外，我们还可以看看加速训练。
There's also, we can look at things like surge training.
也可以研究乳酸动态训练。
We can look at lactate dynamic training.
我特别喜欢的一种是受卡诺瓦启发的交替训练，就是你跑得挺吃力的时候，恢复阶段的速度也依然很快。
We can look at one of my favorites to do, which is the Canova inspired alternations, where you go from running relatively hard to your recovery is still pretty freaking fast.
所有这些方法，都是为了改变身体的适应模式。
And all of these are ways to, again, shift that adaptation.
我觉得，虽然像法特莱克或者鲍尔曼著名的三十秒四十秒训练这些理念早就存在了。
And I think often, although some of these ideas have been around for a long time, like the fartlek or Bowerman's famous thirtyforty drill.
但在现代，这些方法才真正成熟起来，我们也开始为它们建立系统的训练框架。
I think in modern times, this has kind of come to fruition, and we've started to put structure around these things.
所以我们来具体拆解一下，这些训练课到底是什么样子，举几个例子，再看看它们的用途和效果。
So we're gonna break down, you know, what these workouts look like, some examples, and then what we utilize them for and what they do.
对，别搞混了。
Yeah, and don't get twisted.
‘波动训练’是个新词，就是想把所有这些说法都拢在一起——其实它们说的都是同一种训练，从最早 fartlek 时代就有了。
Flux Training is a new blanket term to kind of like encase and house all these types of different terminologies of the same basic training that has been around since day one, since fartleks.
对吧？
Right?
你刚才自己都说了。
I mean, you you named it.
什么冲刺训练、脉冲训练、交替跑、调节跑、加速跑、控制型 fartlek、彼得·汤普森的新式间歇、俄罗斯间歇，本质上全是一回事。
Like, the surge training, pulse training, alternations, modulations, accelerations, controlled fartleks, roll ons with Peter Thompson's new interval training, Russian intervals, they're all the same thing.
就连我们开头提到的《与最佳跑者同行》那本书里也提醒过，所谓的冲刺训练，恢复阶段不是慢走或慢跑，而是尽可能快地跑。
Even, you know, in that Run with the Best book that we referenced at the beginning, they remind people that the recoveries are run, not jogged, as fast as possible in what they called at that time surge training.
说到底，都是一回事。
It's all the same thing.
可惜我们对间歇训练的理解太极端了，要么就是接近最大或全力冲刺，要么就是完全轻松慢跑恢复。
Unfortunately, our view of interval training is more polarized, right, where it's a really, really, really high sub max or maximal effort, and then total easy jog recovery.
但实际情况没那么极端。
But the reality is it's less polarized.
我们更该让强度和配速有起伏，制造一种波浪般的节奏，因为身体其实更适应这种变化，而不是非黑即白的极端模式。
We should have this modulation or flux where we're fluctuating the effort and fluctuating the pace to create this ebb and flow because the concept is that's how the body actually better responds to stimuli is through this fluctuation versus a really intense polarization.
对，就是这样。
Yeah, exactly.
我觉得我们通常接触到的训练模式，都是这种两极化的模型。
And I think that's where we get at is we often learn about this kind of polarized kind of model to workouts.
虽然你提到的这种波动训练其实早就存在了，但它的概念确实比较难理解。
And although this kind of Flux Training, as you outlined, has been around for a while, often it's a little harder to grasp wrap your head around.
所以我打算先说说我是怎么看的、怎么用的，然后咱们再一起探讨。
So what what I'd like to do is, you know, I'm gonna start off maybe how I see it and utilize it, and then we'll see from there.
我觉得关键在于，别只盯着高强度部分，而要关注恢复阶段是怎么影响整体刺激效果的。
So here's here's what I think is we're shifting the emphasis to change it from the hard thing to how is the recovery manipulating the stimulus.
我意思是这样，我是这么理解的：如果我们拿间歇训练来说，我希望大家重点关注的是恢复部分。
And what I mean by there is, here's how I like to think about it, is that if we take alternations, for example, and I say, The recovery part is the part I want you to worry about.
比如说，我们要做800米跑，800米休息。
And I say, Hey, you know, we're going to do eight hundred on, eight hundred off, for example.
我希望你的800米休息时间能控制在2分45秒左右。
Well, I want that 800 off, let's say at 02:45.
我说800米休息是2分45秒，那跑步的时候，大概就是2分25秒、2分20秒这样的配速。
And I say, 800 off is at 02:45, and what we're looking for on the on might be around, you know, 02:25 or 02:20 or something like that.
但真正关键的是，你在完成这套训练时，一定要稳住休息段，让它始终保持在2分45秒左右，或者我定的其他时间。
But what I really want you to do as you're sustaining this workout is sustain the off so that it's always around two forty five or whatever I decided.
这样一来，重点就变了——毕竟我能跑多快是有限的，如果冲到2分15秒，根本没法充分恢复，也就跑不出2分45秒的休息配速。
And then that shifts the emphasis where, well, I can only run so fast, I can't go blast two fifteen because then I can't recover enough to be able to run two forty five.
这其实是在心理上改变了你的关注点。
And what you've done there is psychologically shifted the emphasis.
从生理角度看，这种波动式训练往往能让我们进入一个特殊状态，让身体学会的不只是忍受疲劳产物，而是能有效利用像乳酸这样的物质。
And then physiologically, let's look at what this kind of Flux Training often does, is it puts us in this zone where we are teaching the body how to not only just kind of tolerate, but utilize some of those fatigue byproducts such as lactate, in a productive manner.
现在我们简单点说。
Now let's keep it simple.
你可以这么想。
Think of it like this.
在高强度阶段，还是用刚才的例子，跑那段2分25秒的800米时，你会产生一些乳酸。
During the hard portion, let's stick with that example, during that two twenty five eight hundred, you produce a little lactate.
对吧？
Right?
对于一个普通的高中生，或者成绩不错的高中生来说，这个速度比5公里配速慢一点，对吧？
Maybe for this average high school kid or pretty good high school kid that's a little slower than five ks pace, right?
所以你实际上是在跑接近10公里的强度。
So you're producing maybe like 10 ks effort.
你会产生一些乳酸，不多，但足够明显。
You're producing some lactate, not a ton, but enough.
然后当我告诉你，这组800米休息段，你的意思是，我们不让你完全把乳酸排干净。
Well then when I take and I say, hey, this 800 off, what you're saying is, Hey, we're not going to allow you to totally clear it.
我们希望你保持一个稳定的配速，这个配速比乳酸阈值跑或者节奏跑还要慢一点。
We want you to run at a steady pace that is, again, below slower than tempo running or threshold or whatever you wanted to call it.
它不会让你的乳酸阈值被逼到极限，但依然属于高强度有氧范围。
So it's not pressing that lactate threshold, but it's still high end aerobic.
这样能迫使你的身体去适应：好吧，得想办法在保持较快配速的同时，把这些乳酸利用起来。
So it forces your body to kind of say, okay, we've got to figure out how to utilize this while still running at a pretty quick tempo.
你不是在拼命产生乳酸然后等着身体赶紧清掉它，而是问自己：怎么在跑步过程中直接把这些乳酸当能量用？
So you're working and you're shifting that stimulus from flooding the system and then saying, Hey, get rid of it as quick as you can while we stand around so we can tolerate and whatever, to saying, How do we utilize this the run?
这种训练方式特别有效，尤其对越野跑、半马、全马这类项目——在这些比赛中，乳酸是慢慢渗入体内的，不像中距离跑那样疯狂堆积、越跑越糟。只要你训练到位，身体就能把它们转化成能量和燃料。
And this really kind of pays off, especially for cross country marathons, half marathons, etcetera, where often that is the case, which is how do we utilize this lactate and other products that are slowly kind of dripping into the stream, unlike in like a middle distance where you're just kind of flooding the system and it's just getting worse and worse and worse, in the longer distance events, you're able to utilize that as energy and fuel if you've trained your body.
这里再深入一点，通常在长距离比赛中，更多快肌纤维会生成更多乳酸。
And often what happens, we'll go into the weeds here, often what happens, especially in those longer races, is our more fast twitch orientated muscles produce more of this lactate.
然后通过乳酸穿梭机制，这些乳酸会被运送到慢肌纤维里，由它们吸收并消耗掉。
And then through this lactate shuttle, we can send those to our more slow twitch fibers and have them utilize them and take it up and clear it out.
但前提是，你的肌肉纤维必须经过训练，具备在高强度有氧状态下依然能有效利用乳酸的能力。
But they can only do that if we've trained the capacity for our muscle fibers to work under a high end aerobic ability or situation and still utilize that stuff.
是的，刚开始确实挺难的，因为很多时候我们对它的理解，容易被那些不准确的术语误导。
Yeah, it's difficult work in the beginning because I think a lot of times our understanding of it is weighted to the imperfection of the jargon or terminology you use.
比如你刚才举例的时候，Steve，你也用了‘恢复’或者‘放松’这类词。
Like, you were even using it too, Steve, when you were giving your example, recovery or off.
其实，这部分训练根本谈不上什么放松或恢复。
There's nothing relief, recovery, or off about the less pressing portion of it.
对吧？
Right?
我更倾向于这么理解：你有一个训练时段，或者叫间歇段，比如在跑道上做30-30或者30-40的训练。
The way I like to think about it is you have the work period or work interval, if you will, which is, say, if you're doing a pre thirtythirty drill or thirtyforty drill on a track.
对吧？
Right?
大家都很熟悉这种练法。
Everyone's familiar with that.
在30-40这种训练里，那个训练段的速度就是一英里或三公里的配速。
Well, the work period was at mile pace or three k pace for pre in that thirty, forty drill.
对吧？
Right?
但休息的时候，并不是完全停下来。
But then the back off, it wasn't a total stop.
也不是完全放松。
It wasn't an off.
不是那种彻底停歇，而是稍微放慢节奏。
It wasn't a it was more of a backing off.
然后你把速度降到大概八成，或者200米用40秒左右。
Then you back off to, you know, eighties or forty seconds for 200.
那时候的‘预’，大概就是大家说的他的马拉松配速，对吧？
For pre, at that time, was probably, you know, what they deemed his marathon pace, right?
所以你是在制造这种起伏，像钟摆一样来回摆动，其实就是让身体熟悉通往目标的路径——因为训练的目的就是如此。
So you're creating this fluctuation, this pendulum swinging back and forth, but doing exactly that, showing the body the pathway to get to the destination it wants, because in training, that's what we're doing.
我们通过训练刺激，让身体逐步掌握通往最终目标的路径，因为比赛当天，它可不会凭空学会如何缓冲、回收或转运乳酸并加以利用。
We're showing the body through stimulus and workout the path towards the destination that we ultimately want because it's not going to magically on race day figure out how to buffer or recycle or shuttle lactate and utilize it.
这种训练方式必须要有这样的发展过程。
It needs to have that development of it.
当你回头去看历史，看看那些最成功的长跑运动员和他们的训练计划，十次里有九次，都能发现这种类型的训练是持续稳定、贯穿始终的核心刺激。
And so when you go back and you look at history and you look at the most successful distance runners and you look at the programming, nine times out of 10, there is a steady, major, consistent stimulus within the training program of this type of work.
不管你到底是谁，都没关系。
And it doesn't matter who really who you are.
无论是伊格洛伊、鲍尔曼，还是迪林杰。
You could be Iglooi, Bowerman, Dillinger.
我是说，迪林杰在俄勒冈时期，七十年代末到八十年代初那些惊人的表现，你都知道。
I mean, Dillinger is just his time at Oregon when he had all those, amazing performances in the late seventies, early eighties.
你去看他公开过的训练内容，几乎每天都能看到这种训练的影子。
You look at his training that he, shared, it's just littered with that stuff every day.
当我们 clubhouse 里聊到这个的时候，学者们都很惊讶，因为当你看他们轻松日的训练数据，你会说：哦，平均跑四到八英里，配速大概五分二十。
And the people and scholars were surprised when we talked about this in the clubhouse because when you look at what they're doing for their easy days, right, you'd say, oh, average four to eight miles, average five twenty pace.
但你要是真深入去翻资料，就会发现，其实那本质上就是法特莱克训练，他自己也管它叫法特莱克。
But when you actually get in the weeds and read about it, well, it was essentially fartleks, and he'd called them fartleks.
他们会做经典的法特莱克训练，就是那种有快有慢，随你心情来，这跟克劳斯·洛克的轻松间歇法也很相似。
And they would have the classic fartlek, and that's where he's just like, yeah, you you know, on, off, so to speak, as you want, which is also akin to Claus Lock's easy interval method.
对吧？
Right?
但他还有一种叫‘杂乱法特莱克’的，就是那种持续稳定、贯穿全程的马拉松式耐力跑。
But then you'd also have what he called the littered fartlek, which is that steady state standard, you know, littered, you know, marathon based training run.
但他们可不是每周只做一次这种‘杂乱法特莱克’。
But they don't only do that, this the littered fartlek once a week.
他说，我们管这叫‘杂乱法特莱克’，但其实根本不是法特莱克。
And, you know, he says, we call it the littered fartlek, but there's no fartlek about it.
那就是一场匀速的耐力跑，保持稳定配速。
It's just a steady state training run, steady pace run.
所以当你去到跑道上，他们实际在做的就是这个。
So when you and then on the track, that's what they're doing.
跑道上的大量训练，其实都是在调整节奏、变化强度。
A lot of work on the track is this modulation or flux.
比如罗恩·沃赫斯特那套著名的密歇根训练法，其实最初是从迪林杰的第30大道训练法改过来的，本质上也算是一种节奏变化训练。
Like, even Ron Warhurst's famous Michigan drill, which was originally adapted from the, I think, 30th Avenue drill that Dillinger had, is a Flux workout to some degree.
对吧？
Right?
你先在场外以稳定配速跑一英里。
You're running steady off the track for a mile.
然后上跑道。
You get on the track.
加速跑。
You run faster.
再回到场外。
You go back off the track.
任何试过这套训练的人，不管怎么尝试，前五次都会觉得简直要命。
I mean, anyone who's ever tried to attempt it in any way, shape, or form knows the first one to five runnings of it, tough as shit.
你会开始怀疑自己为什么要干这事儿。
It makes you question why you're doing it.
但一旦你做了四五次甚至六次这种训练，身体适应之后，天啊，感觉简直像能征服世界一样。
But once the adaptation takes place after, you know, number four, five, six of that running, of that type of session, oh my gosh.
你觉得自己无所不能。
You're ready to take on the world.
是的，就是这样。
Yeah, exactly.
我觉得这恰恰点出了关键。
I think that's kind of what it gets at.
我特别喜欢这种交替式训练，因为它往往能反映出一个人有氧能力的水平——那些有氧基础没打好运动员，通常在这类训练里会特别吃力，对吧？
And, you know, one of the things that I love, this kind of flux alternations type work, is that it often gives you a clue to where their aerobic abilities are, because often the athletes who haven't developed aerobically well will really struggle on this stuff, right?
而且这并不一定意味着那些跑得最慢的人。
And often it doesn't necessarily mean the ones who aren't your fastest or what have you.
这就是为什么很多高中生在面对这种自然训练、Flux训练或者法特莱克训练时会特别吃力，因为他们平时习惯的是有明确休息间隔的间歇训练，能撑得住、恢复得快。
And this is why high school kids often struggle with some of this natural or Flux Training or Fartlek Training, etcetera, because they're getting away with maybe a more interval dominated world where they have rest periods and they can handle it and they can bounce back.
但一旦让他们进入这种交替式训练，他们就很难维持那种稳定的配速节奏了。
But as soon as you throw them into this kind of flex training, they really struggle with it to maintain often that kind of steady proportion.
如果你能帮他们提升这方面的能力，就能打下更贴合实际需求的有氧基础。
So if you can get them better at this, like, it gives you that aerobic foundation that is more specific.
我这话是什么意思呢？
And what do I mean by that?
我觉得东非人，尤其是肯尼亚人，在这方面特别厉害。
I think the, the East Africans and the Kenyans are brilliant at this.
尤其是在八九十年代和两千年初，他们经常在比赛中使用这种策略——在比赛过程中微妙地调整配速。
And often, you know, especially in the eighties, nineties, two thousands would use these strategies, in races where it would be the slight variation of paces within the race.
比如说跑五公里时，配速在每圈32秒和31秒之间来回切换，或者在200米段落里这么干。
So thinking, you know, in a five k going from a a 32 lap to 31, then back to 32, then then 31 or for the two hundreds.
对吧？
Right?
这种细微的节奏变化，尤其是在九十年代和二千年初，经常让西方选手招架不住，因为他们习惯的是稳定的配速——比如我跑63秒或60秒4的圈速，那就一直保持60秒4、32秒、32秒、32秒，一口气冲到底。
Where there's this subtle subtle shifting of training or of pacing, which often would knock, especially again in the nineties and February, knock the Western athletes out because they were used to the the steadiness that, hey, I'm gonna go if I'm gonna run 63 or 60 fours, we're gonna go, you know, for 60 fours, 32, 32, 32, and just knock it out.
但这种细微的节奏变化，也会带来一些挑战和问题。
But that subtle variation introduces some issues and some problems as well.
我记得上大学比赛时，遇到过UTEP队的那些选手，他们特别厉害。
In fact, I remember when I was competing in college, we'd faced these guys from UTEP who were really good.
在五公里比赛中，我和另一位队友的个人最好成绩差不多，但他们靠每200米就变速的策略，把我们彻底打垮了。
In the five ks, I remember myself and another one of our teammates, we had similar PRs, but they kinda destroyed us because they do this back and forth every 200.
到终点时，我们的冲刺能力已经耗尽了，他们却一点事没有，因为我们没练过这种节奏变化，也没这个适应能力。
And by the end, like, our kicks were fried, and they were fine because we hadn't gotten adjusted or had this capacity for this variation.
我们当时很擅长保持稳定、均匀的配速训练。
We were very good at efficient, even pace training.
所以我觉得，这正是其中一个重要部分——它给你多了一种工具，让你能快速学会在比赛中随时调整和应对。
So I think this is another component of that is that what this allows you to do is have another tool in your toolbox and allows you to quickly learn how to adapt and adapt and adjust as you go.
是的。
Yeah.
鲍勃·肯尼迪就常说，每次他去峡谷比赛，对手一上来就冲得飞快。
Bob Kennedy was famous for saying, like, whenever he raced the canyons, they just go out at like, you know, you know, breakneck speed.
对吧？
Right?
他们一上来就冲得特别猛。
They just go out crazy hot.
但关键在于，正如你所说，他们这么做的原因是有原因的。
But the thing is, is the reason they did that is as you outlined.
他们训练出了应对这种节奏的能力，能在中途快速恢复，为最后的一英里做好准备；而西方运动员如果也这么硬撑，早就崩了，因为他们缺乏这种适应能力。
They had the coping mechanisms trained in capacity, the coping capacity, to then be able to recover on the fly and get ready for the final mile versus the Western athletes, if they stuck with that hot pace early and tried to just, you know, muscle it out, would blow up because they lack the coping capacity.
所以理解通量训练的关键，就是它让运动员在高速奔跑中不断应对、缓冲、恢复——虽然这算不上真正的休息。
And that's really how to think about Flux Training is endows the athlete with the coping capacity throughout really fast, on the fly, buffer, kind of recover, you know, if you will, but it's not really a recovery.
他们只是在快速清除乳酸和其他代谢废物，然后在比赛最后阶段再次加速、冲刺、波动起来。
They're just gaining that clearance out and utilization of that lactate and other, you know, metabolic waste products, and then be able to surge or pulse or flux back up again in the final segment of the race.
你想想，这听起来像什么？
You know, what does this sound like?
几乎每一场高中越野赛都是这样。
Pretty much every high school cross country race ever.
几乎每一场大学越野赛也都是这样。
Pretty much every NCAA cross country race ever.
第一英里永远都会跑得很快，一直都会，永远如此。
It's always going to be a hot first mile, always, always, always.
这个现实你躲不掉，对吧？
You cannot escape that reality, right?
所以，这种训练方式特别有效，能帮助运动员和跑者培养应对快速起跑段的能力——适当减速、调整节奏、重新蓄力，然后在最后阶段全力冲刺。
And so this is an excellent training protocol to utilize to empower and build that capacity in that athlete and your runners to cope with that fast first segment, You buffer, recharge, regroup, so to speak, and then be able to rally for the final segment.
我们常以为这是在耗尽体力，其实不是。
And we we tend to think about it as a battery draining, and it's not.
中间这一段，应该更像是给电池充电，为最后一英里做准备。
You you know, the middle mile should be actually a battery refueling, so to speak, for the final mile.
但关键就在这儿。
But that's the thing.
没错。
Right?
那个放慢的阶段，也就是史蒂夫说的‘放松’或‘恢复’部分，其实你最该做的是尽量加快这个过程。
Is the the back off portion, you know, what Steve called the off or recovery or the relief portion, that's the thing you wanna accelerate to be as fast as possible.
正如我们在雷·欧文那场跑步的描述里说的，这是一场全力以赴的跑，不是慢悠悠地遛弯儿。
As we said in that quote from the Ray Irvine run, it's the run, not a jog, that's as fast as possible.
卡诺瓦特别强调，我们做节奏变化或交替跑的时候，从来不叫它恢复。
And Canova is very famous for saying, I don't call it recovery when we do modulations or alternation work.
他不叫恢复，因为肯yon的恢复是每英里九分钟，那根本就是慢走，根本算不上跑。
I don't call it recovery because to Kenyon's recovery is nine minute mile, he's jogging, he's nothing, he's walking.
所以他把这些20公里、15公里的节奏交替训练都称为跑步——就是这一公里快一点，下一公里慢一点，来回交替着来。
So he calls these runs, these modulations, or these alternations of pace for 20 kilometers, 15 kilometers, and we're just gonna go back and forth, one k at this, one k at that, one k at this, one k at that.
这才是最准确的理解方式。
And that's the best way to think about it.
其实有很多非常专业的教练都在这么做。
And there's a lot of very competent coaches.
比如肖恩·奥迪，来自谢安山高中的教练，他就把这套方法用得特别好，尤其是在高中阶段。
Sean O'Dea is one from Cheyenne Mountain who utilizes this really well at the high school level.
上个田径赛季，我也在高中队里用这套方法带我的队员。
I utilized this at the high school level this past track season with my track athletes.
你知道，我们有一组八名中长跑运动员。
You know, we had a group of eight distance runners, middle distance runners.
他们中有人获得了三项州冠军，其中一位年轻女孩在1500米和800米项目中各拿了一项，还有一位男士在800米项目中夺冠。他其实是我第二梯队的800米选手，因为我原本那位800米州冠军因为赛季初打篮球伤了跟腱，所以没能参赛。
Out of it, had three state championships, two by one young lady in the fifteen and eight, and one by the gentleman in the eight, who was actually my second tier 800 meter guy, because my returning state champ in the eight got an Achilles strain from basketball early in the season, so didn't compete.
我们每周跑量不到10到15英里，从来没做过长距离跑，周日总是休息。但他们训练的核心，也就是最关键的日常训练，就是这种变速跑。
And we ran less than 10 to 15 miles a week, never did a long run ever, always took Sunday off, but the staple or bread and butter of their training was this fluctuation workout.
对吧？
Right?
我们当时经常这么练。
That was like, we would do that all the time.
所以我在带高中生时，因为这对他们来说确实挺难的，我会先这么安排：比如训练第一周，我不直接让他们按比赛配速去跑200米，而是先调整一下。
And so how I incorporate it with high school kids, because it's really tough, is initially, instead of having them just do, you know, like, say the first week of practice was like, alright, you're going to do 200 at race pace effort for whatever pace you're at, right?
不管你是练15公里、1500米、3000米，还是800米，先按那个主项的配速来。
15 k or 1,500 meter pace, three three thousand pace, whatever your main event was, 800 meter pace.
然后我会让他们接着慢跑一段，就像我说的，稍微松点油门，别踩刹车，再跑个50米或者100米，具体看他们当时的体能状况。
And then I'd have them run steady, as I called it, so back off a little bit, take your foot off the gas pedal, but don't hit the brakes, and for another 50 or 100 meters, depending on their general state of condition.
如果是刚入学的大一新生， obviously 就是50米，但根据间歇训练的原理，我们知道，运动结束后最初的十到二十秒内，心脏才会真正受到刺激。
If they're a brand new freshman, obviously it'd be 50 meters, but we know from interval training, right, that the stimulus happens, is purported to happen to the heart in that first ten to twenty seconds after the conclusion of the work interval.
所以大家总说，运动结束后前十到二十秒最好慢走，因为这时候心脏正处在最需要刺激的阶段。
So that's why they always said, okay, you wanna walk after the first ten to twenty seconds after the work interval because the heart is still that's when the stimulation's happening.
所以一开始我们用这些小段落来入门，之后安排完全恢复——走路、慢跑、喘口气，别太累，彻底放松。
So to introduce that, we start with those baby chunks and then a full complete recovery, walk, jog, catch your breath, not hard, off, total, chill out.
但一旦他们适应了，我们就很快过渡到200米以三千米配速跑，接着来100米的‘清理跑’，我用这个词是为了让学生更容易理解，其实就是接近一万米配速的强度。
But then we build a bridge rather rapidly once they got the hang of it to then, yeah, 200 meters on at this three k pace and then a 100 meter, what we call, like, say, flush, which, you know, I use that terminology to create better descriptors for these kids, but the flush was essentially like their 10 k pace type effort.
他们会做两到三组这样的循环，全程都在跑，但节奏上，我们只是在比赛配速的高峰和恢复的低谷之间做调整，而恢复的低谷不像传统极化间歇训练那样彻底放慢。
And they would do, you know, two to three laps of that for a set, and so it's continuous running, but again, we're just having, you know, pretty stern, you know, the common peaks of race pace, but the valleys of recovery aren't as low as is in traditional polarized interval training.
就是稍微减速，但依然保持不错的速度。
It's this back off, but we're still running at a good clip.
这样一来，身体就会慢慢适应，学会处理各种不同强度的刺激。
And, you know, what happens is the body gets really stable at being able to digest and cope with these different type of stimuli.
所以如果他们在1500米第一圈冲得太快，也能靠这种适应能力在中间段调整回来，最后还留有余力冲刺。
So if they go out real fast in the first lap of a 15, they can then bounce back through coping strategies in the middle and then have something in the tank to kick.
还有其他教练，比如我知道南卡罗来纳州的鲍勃·柯林斯，他用这套方法带高中中长跑队员，效果非常好。
And there's other coaches who you know, I know Bob Collins, another scholar who coaches in South Carolina who, you know, operated and used this to good effect for his high school middle distance and distance runners.
我前几天还跟他聊过，他说，没错。
And he's like, I talked to him the other day, and he's saying, yeah.
我的学生最后都能冲刺。
My kids had a kick.
他们总是把最后四百米当成比赛来跑，而不是硬撑着。
You know, they would always make it a race the last, you know, 400 rather than hanging on.
整个赛季下来，他们越来越强，到了锦标赛阶段明显比以前更有后劲，而不是光靠咬牙撑。
Even throughout the season, they were getting better going into the championship period versus just hanging on.
我把这套方法加进训练后，明显感觉到差别。
Like, I noticed a big difference after integrating this into my training.
现在很多人都在用，挺有意思的是，这其实没什么新鲜的，我们只是重新发现了它。一翻历史才发现，原来早就有不少人这么干了。
So a lot of people are on it, and it's, like, funny because nothing new under the sun, we just rediscovered it, and when you start looking through history, go, oh my gosh.
很多人用这方法取得了非常好的效果。
So many people have utilized this to really good effect.
我们怎么就渐渐放弃了这种思维方式呢？
Why do we ever get away from this type of thinking?
实验室里那些研究论文说，要想刺激最大摄氧量，就得保持匀速跑满三分钟，不然就没用。
Well, the lab coats in the research paper said to get the VO two max stimulus, you gotta go even pace for three minutes or else.
我们就直接信了，对吧？
And we just took that at face value, right?
对，就是这样。
Yeah, exactly.
但我认为问题的一部分在于，这些变量很难研究。
And I think part of the problem though is it's hard to study these variables, right?
因为科学研究嘛，总想把条件控制得死死的。
It's because it's easier in science, you want it to be controlled, right?
所以大家自然就倾向于说：好，我们就做这个训练。
So it's easier to be like, Okay, we're going to do this workout.
我其实读研的时候就遇到过这个问题。
And I remember running into this problem actually in grad school.
就是得做同样的训练，还得控制得死死的。
It's like, well, we need to do the same workout, and we need to have it controlled.
比如十组四百米，每组之间歇一分钟，或者半分钟，反正得让休息时间固定，好观察训练效果。
So it's like 10 by four hundred and one minute rest in between, that rest is nothing or whatever half, because you want to hold a variable constant to see if you could train it.
但问题就出在这儿，当你调整恢复时间、匀速段，不管你怎么叫它，你会发现越想控制它，越控制不住，其他变量总会跟着变。
And that's where often this comes into, it becomes very difficult because when you're manipulating that recovery portion or that steady portion or whatever you want to call it, it becomes increasingly you can't kind of hold that and control it because something else is gonna shift.
所以研究起来就越来越难。
So it becomes harder to study.
我觉得另一个关键点是，在美国，我们常常把‘变快’直接等同于‘间歇跑配速更快’，比如我们说要做四组一英里，配速五分钟，下一次就改成四分五十五秒，再下一次改成四分五十秒。
And I think the other part that I think is really important here is that in The US, we often equate getting faster to running faster on our hard interval sessions, where we say, okay, we're going to do four by mile at five minute pace, but next time we're gonna do four by mile at four fifty five pace and then four fifty pace.
我们总觉得配速越快，水平就越高。
And we equate getting faster to getting better.
有多少教练或运动员都说过：‘对啊，我上次四百米或一英里间歇跑都跑到那个配速了，肯定没问题了。’
And how many coaches or athletes who have said like, oh, yeah.
我做过的那些 mile 重复跑、400 米重复跑，都是按那个速度来的，状态肯定到位了。
I did my mile repeats or my 400 repeats at this pace, so I'm ready to go.
但当我们看这种波动交替训练时，这种方法就没那么有效了，因为很多时候，你在高强度部分并不会跑得更快。
Well, that doesn't work as well when we look at some of this kind of flux surge alternation training because what often happens is you don't get faster on your hard parts.
你本来就不该跑得更快。
You shouldn't.
真正发生的是，你的恢复速度变快了，比如那个间歇的400米，可能从80秒降到78秒，或者类似的情况。
What happens is you actually start recovering quicker so that, again, maybe that off 400 goes from 80 to 78 or whatever have you.
你能更好地承受训练量，让休息期变得更短，或者撑得更久。
Like, you're able to handle the workload and, have that that off period become a little bit quick quicker or handle it for longer.
所以原本跑两英里，现在你能跑两英里半，甚至三英里，等等。
So instead of two miles at this, you can do two and a half miles or three miles or whatever have you.
这就没有那种明显的进步感了——比如‘这次我跑得比上次快了，所以我变强了’。
So there's not that nice, neat, oh, I'm getting better because this time, you know, I ran my times faster.
而且我觉得，这种训练在社交媒体上也没那么显眼，也没有那种Strava效应——它看起来不像跑四组一英里、每组4分20秒那样炫酷，而这恰恰导致我们常常回避这类训练，尽管它们其实同样艰难。
And I also think it doesn't carry as much of that we'll call it that social media prominence where or that Strava effect where it doesn't look as, you know, impressive as closing four by mile and four twenty does, which, again, makes it where often we don't do these things because it doesn't look as impressive even though it is often just as difficult.
把它当成一场比赛，这个说法我从鲍勃·柯林斯那儿听来的，致敬一下，真的很重要。
Making it a race, then again, I stole that phrase from Bob Collins, shout to that, is really important.
这正是关键所在。
And that's the thing.
对吧？
Right?
这其实只是心态上一个细微的转变，却非常重要——你练跑的真正目的是什么。
We it's just it's just a subtle shift, but an important shift in mindset of why you're doing a workout.
大多数人一上来就想：我能不能跑得更快？
Most people go in to say, how fast can I go?
然后变得贪心，变得没耐心。
How and you get greedy, and you're just like you get impatient.
老想着：我该怎么跑得最快？
You go, how fast do I go?
而不是：我实际上需要跑多快？
Versus how fast do I need to go?
这才是真正的转变，对吧？
And that's the big shift, right?
我带的那些高中生运动员，我们会去算一下，要想在州冠军赛里跟那些高三或者高年级的选手竞争，到底需要跑多快。
With the high school athletes I work with, we looked at how fast do you need to be able to run to be able to compete for a state championship, right, with those seniors or upperclassmen.
大概是第二级别，对吧？我所在的俄勒冈州是中等水平，所以我们不是最高级别的。
So it was about two their division, right, and I'm in the middle division working with kids who are in the middle division in Oregon, so we're not the highest division.
男子800米只需要两分钟。
It was only two minutes for the men's 800.
对吧？
Right?
这样的话，你就有资格说，嘿。
That would put you in the ballpark to say, hey.
我有能力去争夺州冠军。
I could compete to win a state title.
女子1500米的话，只需要5秒的差距。
For the women's 1,500, it's only five flat.
3公里的话，只需要11秒的差距。
It was only 11 flat for the three k.
对吧？
Right?
五分钟或者五分二十秒的配速，六分钟的配速。
Five minute or five twenty pace, six minute pace.
那所谓的乳酸交替训练，不管你怎么叫它，具体是怎么练的？
So what did the flux alternation or flux lactic dynamic, whatever you wanna call it, training look like?
对我手底下最顶尖的女高中生来说，就是大量跑400米每段40秒，不对，是200米每段40秒。
Well, for my top high school girl, it was just a lot of work at forty seconds per 400 or I mean, 200.
抱歉。
Excuse me.
还有大量跑200米每段45秒。
And it was also a lot of work at forty five seconds per 200.
对吧？
Right?
六分钟配速，五分二十秒配速。
Six minute pace, five twenty pace.
目标是创造耐力，就像卡诺瓦说的，搭一座桥，让他们能跑得更久。
And the goal was to create extension, as Canova calls it, building a bridge so that they could either, one, go for longer.
所以不是跑200、400、600米，而是让他们在目标配速下跑更长的距离；或者，缩短恢复时间，比如只给100米或20秒的休息，然后马上接着练；又或者，整体上把速度提得更快一点，对吧？
So instead of 200 meters, 400 meters, 600 meters at that target pace of how fast they needed to be, and or the goal was to quicken the, you know, back off portion by either making it really short time periods, so like a 100 meters or twenty seconds of total recovery and then back into it, Or, you know, again, making it just globally faster as well, right?
关键就在于，你得明白这是在练耐力，但难点在于，这其实是反向的线性周期训练。
So that's the thing, is like you have to think it's about extension, and it's tough because what it is, it's reverse linear periodization.
也就是说，年初的时候，训练强度高，但总量少，专注于那些能刺激提升的训练内容。
So you're starting off in the beginning of the year with higher intensity and lower volume of those stimulating work that you're focused on.
对吧？
Right?
他们一开始不会做太多以目标比赛配速完成的训练，因为身体还没足够强壮和耐受。
So they would be doing not a lot of work globally in terms of volume and duration at their goal race pace because they just weren't fit and strong enough.
虽然训练总量不多，但因为他们体能和力量还不够，身体还是会把这种训练当成高强度来反应。
So the volume of the work is low, but because they're not fit and strong enough, yes, it's also perceived and interpreted by the body as high intensity.
记住，强度不等于最大强度。
Remember, intensity is not maximum intensity.
很多人对这个搞混了。
It's just a lot of people get this confused.
强度分好几种：最大强度、次大强度、高强度、中等偏高、中等，还有低强度。
There's maximum intensity, submaximal, high, intermediate, medium, and then low.
很多时候，耐力运动员都处在高强度、中等偏高和中等这个范围里，从能量系统来说，就是有氧或者无氧糖酵解的能力。
And so a lot of times distance riders, we live in that high, intermediate, medium world, which is defined as, you know, from an energy system standpoint, aerobic or anaerobic glycolytic power, so to speak, or capacity.
我们想做的，是让身体把目标配速从无氧糖酵解能力的运动，转变成卡诺瓦说的有氧耐力。
And so what we're trying to do is shift the body from perceiving that target race pace as an anaerobic glycolytic power capacity exercise to more of what Canova calls aerobic power endurance.
所以我们就问，这是不是那个万能解法？
And that's why we call we we ask, is this the magic bullet?
因为有氧耐力跑，才是最佳状态。
Because aerobic power running, that's the sweet spot.
所有训练都应该朝着这个方向努力：在保持有氧状态的前提下，尽可能跑得快，避免触发不必要的无氧糖酵解，减少乳酸堆积。
That's where all the, you know, training should be geared towards, is getting it so you can run as fast as possible in that aerobic condition without triggering that unnecessary anaerobic glycolytic glycolysis that creates excessive amounts of acidosis.
这正是最难的地方。
That's what's really hard about this.
但你得保持自律。
But you gotta stay disciplined.
她以前就经常练，就像我高中时候那样，反复跑45秒和40秒的200米。
And so she would just do, you know, way back to my high school gal, a lot of work at 45 and 40 for 200.
她对这事儿简直了如指掌。
She knew that thing inside and out, man.
了如指掌。
Inside and out.
不管刮风、下雨、烈日还是冰雹，在州锦标赛上她都照跑不误。
And didn't matter, wind, rain, sun, hail at our state meet, she was running it.
因为她有这个能力，再加上六十天专注训练，大部分都围绕这个目标，她的表现非常稳定。
And but because she was able to, you know, have that capacity and sixty days of just focused training, a lot of it towards that, Very stable in her performance.
她总是跑在队伍中间。
She was always kinda running around.
赛季初她跑五分十五秒，但到了赛季最后一个月，每跑1500米都稳定在四分五十五秒到五分零二秒之间，几乎每次都赢，就那次西北区的大型邀请赛除外，那时候好多顶尖选手都聚在一起了。
She started out the season off at, five fifteen, but then, like, for the last month of the season, it was every 1,500 was, like, four fifty five to, like, five zero two, and she was always winning except for, like, the big invite, whereas, like, all these kids who came together in the Northwest.
但那次大型邀请赛之外，她全年跑了那么多场1500米，一场都没输过。
But she didn't lose only that one fifteen at that big invite, but throughout the year, she ran however many 15 hundreds and never lost a single one.
我们想要的，是稳定的表现、稳定的能力，而不是那种一时爆发的水平。
And that's what we want is we want a stable performance stable performance capacity and ability versus just this greedy performance.
我能跑多快？
How how fast can I go?
我能跑多快？
How fast can I go?
这种心态会让人总觉得不够好，永远不满意。
And it creates this, like, nothing's ever good enough mentality.
所以我特别喜欢这种训练方式，前提是你的出发点是对的。
And that's why I love this type of training if you approach it with the right intent.
是的。
Yeah.
不，我特别喜欢这个故事。
No, I love that story.
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这其实点出了关键：把注意力从‘我能跑多快’这种以自我为中心的想法里拉出来，转而思考什么最有利于你个人的成长。
It really kind of gets at the point, which is this is taking it out of maybe that egocentric, how fast can I go, and saying what is best for developing you as a person?
而且，我知道你们听众可能都在想，我明白你们的意思，约翰和史蒂夫。
And, you know, maybe getting into a little bit, okay, I hear all you listeners are like, I hear you, John and Steve.
那我们该怎么运用这种方法呢？
How do we utilize this?
你刚才举了个例子，但按传统说法，我们通常把乳酸阈值训练、节奏训练或者临界速度训练，不管怎么叫，都看作是提升有氧能力、尤其是高端有氧能力的途径。
And you gave an example there, but what I like to think of as, in the traditional sense, we see the threshold training or tempo training or critical velocity training, whatever you want to call it, as the route or path to aerobic development and that high end aerobic development.
但那只是一种模式，就是我们一味地想把阈值或有氧能力往上推，对吧？
But that's essentially only one model, which is we're going to push our threshold or aerobic abilities up, right?
我们就在阈值下面那条线上勉强维持，然后指望它能一点点往上提。
We're gonna ride that line just below it and then just kind of hope that we like push it up, up, up, up a little bit.
而乳酸动态变化的训练方式，真正让你能做到的是有推有拉，明白吗？
And what lactate dynamic alternations modulations allow you to do is essentially push and pull, right?
因为你时而慢一点，时而快一点，这样两种刺激都给了，有氧能力自然就能往上提一个台阶。
Because we go a little slower, we go a little faster, and you're just kind of giving both stimuli to get that aerobic ability to go up a notch.
我觉得这一点特别关键，也很有实际意义。
And I think that's where it's really important and can come into play.
我通常这么想：当一个高中生或者大学生已经适应了传统的训练方式，慢慢熟悉了那种节奏之后。
So often the way I like to think of this is in my progression of training is once a high school or college kid has adapted to kind of the traditional or gotten a little used to the traditional, hey.
我们会安排一些稳态间歇训练，比如乳酸阈值四英里节奏跑，或者八英里马拉松配速跑之类的——抱歉，这么说有点啰嗦。
We're gonna do some, you know, steady intervals or, like, a lactate threshold, four mile tempo run, or eight mile marathon pace run, or what have you, often excuse me.
我的想法是，接下来的进阶步骤，应该是引入并重点加强这种波动训练，因为它能提供新的刺激，帮助提升表现。
My idea is, well, the next step in that progression is to introduce or really emphasize some of this Flux Training, because it's the next stimuli to get better.
所以，我们可能会从赛季初期或暑期训练时的几次节奏跑、阈值跑，逐步过渡到加入这种交替训练，比如跑一公里稍快一点，再跑一公里稍慢一点。
So we might go from early in the season or maybe from the summer training where they've done a couple tempo threshold runs to starting to introduce some of this alternations and longer alternations where we go maybe a K at a little bit faster and a K at a little bit slower.
我觉得这是从节奏跑过渡到更高层次训练的一个很好的方式。
And I think that's a great way from this tempo world.
再从短距离训练的角度来看，我喜欢你之前的做法，我以前带高中生时也这么练：做200米快慢交替跑。
And then if we look at from the shorter world, I like what you did, what I used to do with high school kids, is we would do 200s on and off, essentially.
我们一开始就是纯粹地快慢交替，比如对高中生来说，跑200米时用两英里配速。
And we would begin by doing them literally on and off, by doing 200s where it's like, you know, for a high school kid, maybe running three, you know, two mile pace.
你知道，他们试着跑接近九分钟，我们会说，去跑这200米，34秒，33秒。
You know, they're trying to run near nine minutes, we'd say, go run these 200, 34, 33.
他们的休息是慢跑200米。
And their off would be 200 slow jog.
所以他们会用九到十分钟的配速慢跑。
So they'd go nine, ten minute pace for that slow jog.
然后随着时间推移，你会开始说，好的，很棒。
Well then over time you start saying, Okay, great.
这部分你已经掌握了。
You got this part down.
配速你也控制得很好。
You got the pacing down.
接下来我们要换个练法。
Now we're going to switch this.
不像之前那样慢跑休息，现在我们改成跑一百米轻快过渡，就像你刚才说的那样，对吧？
Instead of an off slow jog, now we're going to do a 100 meter float, as you kind of said, right?
你把恢复时间缩短了，但同时也意识到，等等，其实可以这样。
Where you've taken the recovery down, but you've also said, you know what?
现在我要强调的是，希望你把这100米控制在20秒左右，不管具体是多少时间。
Now I'm going to put this as on an emphasis of, I want you to keep this 100 meters in, let's say, you know, twenty seconds or something like that, whatever it is.
然后我们会把训练分成几组进行。
And then we would split things into sets.
不再是20组200米交替进行，而是分成两组，每组8个200米，中间穿插100米放松漂移，然后站姿恢复。
So instead of being 20 by 200 on off, maybe it would be two sets of eight by 200 with a 100 meter float with standing recovery in between.
之后再逐步推进，通常又会回到16组200米，中间配200米慢跑，保持40秒左右的节奏，稳定不变。
And then you progress from there and you often get back to, okay, now we're gonna get back to 16 by 200 on with 200 off at that forty seconds or whatever it has that is still steady there.
你调整了重点：高强度部分基本没变，但通过延长稳定段，从分组训练过渡到连续跑，把放松距离从100米加到200米，就这样慢慢把重心转移了。
And you've shifted the emphasis where the hard part has stayed relatively the same, but you're extending their ability by making that steady part longer, prolonged, less going from sets to straight through, extending it from 100 meters to 200 meters, whatever it has you, where you're shifting that emphasis.
我后来发现，这种方式特别有效，尤其是对高中生练3200米或者类似的中长跑项目，能真正巩固有氧能力的发展，不再只是传统意义上的‘半马配速阈值训练’，而是针对这项具体赛事的有氧专项训练。
And what I found over time is that really helps, especially from the high school, like 3,200 or whatever three ks it is, is that really kind of cements some of these aerobic developments and takes it from the kind of traditional, hey, we're gonna do a half marathon paced threshold to, hey, this is aerobic development for this specific event.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你其实是在从宏观角度看待如何设计训练、安排强度和负荷，转向一种更细微、更动态的微观视角。
I mean, it's it's really you're kind of like shifting from a macro point of view about how to create training, workouts and doses to more of like this pulsating micro or fluctuating micro point of view.
你也说了，史蒂夫，大家管这叫‘漂浮’。
And you said it too, Steve, like people call it float.
这东西我们都懂，可每个人说起来都不一样。
It's so hard it's something we all know about, yet everyone talks about it differently.
比如UP的罗布·康纳，他们管这叫‘切碎并慢放’的训练，对吧？
Like Rob Conner at UP calls them chopped and screwed workouts, right?
所以关键在于，你和运动员之间要对什么时候该做什么有清晰的共识。
And so the concept is having a clear understanding between you and the athletes you're working with about what is required when.
还有‘中等’这个词，也是大家常用来描述的。
And, you know, moderate is another example that people use.
他们会说，高强度段是这样，然后接一段中等强度，来回交替。
They use, okay, the hard portion, the hard interval is gonna be this, and then you go into a moderate interval, and back and forth like that.
我用‘冰屋风格’这种说法，比如快、轻松、恢复、放松，就是为了让学生们一听就懂。
I use that terminology of Igloooy style, like fast, fresh, flush, fluffy, just to keep it really simple for, like, high school kids.
一旦他们明白了什么时候该做什么，表现才真正开始提升。
And once they got an understanding about what was asked of them when, that's when they really started to take off.
比如对一名五公里跑者来说，别老是说做五组一英里，配速按五公里或三公里，中间休息三分钟，你可以让强度每200米就变化一次。
So rather than say, like, do for, like, a five k runner, as an example, rather than do five by a mile at five k pace or three k pace or whatever with three minutes rest and recovery, what you can do is you can fluctuate every 200 the demand.
比如先跑200米，用三公里或一英里的配速发力，然后马上放缓，转成十公里的轻松配速。
So you can run, say, 200 meters at three k pace or mile pace effort, and then back off to a more moderate pace effort of 10 k.
对吧？
Right?
如果你这样交替：一英里配速、十公里配速、一英里配速、十公里配速，从神经层面来看，不只是生理层面，我们总在谈生理，但让运动员在快慢之间切换，其实会发现根本不存在所谓的‘速度’。
And if you go mile 10 k, mile 10 k, what also happens too, from a neurological side, not just a physiological side, we spend a lot of time talking about the physiology of this, but by subjecting people to faster paces and relatively less faster paces, what happens is we know there's no such thing as speed.
有的只是力量。
It's only strength.
记住，力量就是速度，我们说的‘弱’，其实是协调性不够，因为力量和协调是绑定在一起的。
So remember, strength is speed, and what we call weak is actually lack of coordination because strength is coupled to coordination.
如果你没法在正确的时间，以合适的速率或频率，把身体和四肢摆到正确的位置，那你就会显得‘不协调’——也就是我们常说的‘弱’。
So if you don't have the coordination to move your body, put your limbs in a certain position at a certain velocity or frequency at the right time, you're gonna be, quote, unquote, discoordinated, what we call weak.
所以我们必须明白的关键在于，我们真正要提升的是协调性，而协调性提升了，力量自然就上来了，速度也就跟着提高了。
So that's the the big leap that we have to understand is what we're trying to do is increase coordination, which then increases strength, which then increases speed.
这是一种非常细致但全面的训练思路，能更准确地反映我们训练的本质：通过在目标配速或比赛强度基础上，稍微提高一两个档次做一段冲刺，再降下来一两个档次恢复，让运动员适应整个速度范围。而且，每次你加速和减速，哪怕只是从轻松跑切换到10公里配速这种微小变化，身体也会同时激活更多向心和离心的肌肉控制，这要是只用固定配速跑五组一英里，全程保持4分45秒，然后每次休息三分钟，根本得不到这种效果。
So it's the it's a very detailed but thorough way of thinking about it act more accurately what we're doing in training, and by offering faster portions that might be a little bit above, you know, one or two clicks above target race pace or race effort, but then backing off to one or two clicks below it, We then endow the athlete with the spectrum because also too, the nice thing is every time you accelerate and decelerate, even if it's really that shallow of a difference from mild pace to 10 k pace, you also get a lot of the different concentric and eccentric type components working together that you normally wouldn't get if you just said, I'm gonna run, you know, five by a mile at four forty five pace the whole time through at, like, you know, just, you know, mono pace it, just click click click click click, and then take the three minute recovery.
我们很清楚，这种一成不变的训练方式，远不如变化多端的训练方式有效，而变量训练正是运动学习和体能训练中的核心原则。
We know that that blocked type of work is not as valuable as variability type of work, and that's a key thing in motor learning and also training is variable learning.
变量训练的重要性不容忽视。
Variability has a lot of import.
研究已经证明，比如篮球运动员，如果他们练习投篮时在球场各处随机投五球、再换地方投五球，然后停练一周，和那些每次只在一个固定点投十五分钟、换点再投十五分钟、重复这种单一模式的人相比，前者在一周后重新上场时，投篮命中率更高，从不同位置出手更流畅，整体表现简直天差地别。
We've seen this in studies where it's like athletes who play basketball or shoot baskets will practice variables where they'll shoot, okay, five baskets here, five baskets there, all throughout the court, and then they'll, like, leave them and have no practice for a week versus the athletes who just practice for fifteen minutes, one shot here, and then fifteen minutes, one shot here, and then fifteen minutes, one shot here, more of that blocked style, true blocked style, and then when they come back after a week of no practice, the person, the athletes who had that more variable or variable, what I call variable block training, more micro doses, had a lot better accuracy from different places at, you know, throughout the court, picked it up a lot faster, more shots went in, it was more fluid, everything was just through the roof.
虽然从认知上讲，我们更习惯把事情分成大块、稳定的模式，喜欢确定性，喜欢一成不变。
Although it's easier for us cognitively to process things in big chunks and steady chunks, we love stability, and we love predictability, and we love big.
这确实需要更大的思维转变，但毫无疑问，这才是更有效、回报更高的方式。
This is the harder mental, leap to take, but it's by far the more fruitful, without a doubt.
是的，没错，这正是我们把这套训练称为‘万能训练法’的原因——它不只是从生理角度出发，更常见的是，我们往往在训练中陷入重复同一种模式的循环，时间一长就卡住了。
Yeah, no, I think this is why we titled this the magic bullet workout, is it's not only from a physiological standpoint, but it's often what happens is we often get stuck on our workouts where we repeat the same style of workout, right, over time.
这种训练方式常常没有被纳入常规训练中。
And often this is one of those styles of workouts that isn't included always in training.
对很多人来说，这是一种全新的变化，能带来不同的刺激，进一步巩固之前的进步。
So for many people, it's this new variation that allows us to have a new and different stimulus that can, again, solidify some of these gains.
我经常把它看作是从一般的有氧能力，转向针对特定项目的专项有氧能力。
And I often like to think of it as translate it from something that is more general aerobic ability to specific aerobic ability for an event.
我觉得另一个特别重要的点是，它能给你提供一种不同的反馈方式，尤其是在指导时。
And the other part of it that I think is really important is it gives you a different style of feedback when you're coaching.
通常你指导跑步时，会盯着运动员，看他们在这一组或这次训练中是跑快了还是慢了。
So generally when you're coaching, you're watching runners and you're saying, Oh, did he run faster or slower during this workout or repeat?
他们有没有出现技术崩溃？
Did they break down or not?
但这种交替加速的训练方式，能让你从多个层面评估他们：动作机制上怎么应对，有氧恢复方面表现如何，以及这些表现随时间如何变化。
But these alternation surges, flex training allows you to evaluate how, on multiple levels, how they are handling it biomechanically, how they are handling it physiologically from a aerobic recovery standpoint, and then how that shifts over time.
我说的很简单，就是你观察孩子做这些动作时的样子。
And what I mean by this is simple, is you watch a kid do these.
如果他们在最初的20米就明显慢下来，这就说明了，正如约翰一开始说的，他们其实没有能力从中等强度的配速中恢复过来，因为那些高强度段并没有多难。
And if they initially slow down maybe during that first 20 meters and slow down real hard, it tells you that, you know, going back to what John said initially is that, like, they don't have the capacity to recover off of a moderate pace because the hard prices aren't that hard.
这些强度大概就是5公里或10公里的配速，具体要看你怎么用。
They're like five ks, 10 ks effort, depending on what you're utilizing it for.
但大多数情况下，尤其是时间较长的训练，根本达不到接近最大强度，甚至不是接近1英里赛的配速。
But it's not a near max or even a near mile pace type deal most of the time, for the longer ones at least.
所以你会发现，就连这种中等强度的——比如以10公里配速跑800米——都会让他们陷入困境，必须在最初的二三十米甚至40米里减速，才能稳住节奏。
So you're seeing that like, oh, even this kind of moderate kind of, you know, 800 at 10 k pace puts them in a hole where they have to back off for that initial twenty, thirty, 40 meters before getting into the steady.
这就能给你一些线索。
That gives you an idea.
这说明他们的有氧能力有个短板，按理说在中等强度下不该出现这种情况。
It's like, oh, this is a weak point aerobically that shouldn't occur at a kind of moderate pace.
所以我们得慢慢去提升这方面的能力，经常做这种交替式训练。
So we have to develop that over time, often do this kind of alternation work.
另外，它还能告诉你，他们到底能在什么配速下恢复过来。
The other thing it tells you too is, what pace can they recover at?
所以随着时间推移，如果他们的恢复变得越来越吃力、越来越慢，从原本能轻松维持的2分40秒配速，慢慢变成2分45秒、2分50秒，或者跑得特别挣扎，这就说明他们即使在有氧状态下，也缺乏处理这种疲劳的能力——毕竟2分45秒的配速明明还是有氧范围。
So over time, if that recovery becomes harder and slower and they go from, here I'm using the recovery for that steady pace, but if that 800 steady goes from two forty to two forty five to two fifty, or they come really hard struggling with it, it tells you that they don't possess the ability, even in an aerobic state, because that two forty five is aerobic.
对吧？
Right?
这通常就是马拉松配速，我们都知道，这种强度完全是靠有氧系统支撑的。
It's often kind of marathon pace whatever, which we know is like you're fully aerobic.
可即便在这种纯有氧状态下，他们还是没法应对和消化那段高强度跑完后积累起来的轻微疲劳。
Even in that aerobic state, they can't process and handle and deal with the just mild or moderate fatigue that's built up during that that harder portion.
这说明，如果只是让他们单独跑个马拉松配速或者半马配速的训练，他们可能还撑得住，但还做不到在积累了一点疲劳之后，再回到纯有氧配速下继续稳定跑下去。
Well, that tells you that maybe aerobically, if we were just going to send them off for a marathon pace or half marathon pace workout, they'd be okay, but they don't have the ability yet to be able to have a little bit more fatigue and then process that aerobically at an entire aerobic pace.
这又给我们提了个醒：这就是他们的短板。
And that gives you again an idea on, well, this is a weak point.
特别是对马拉松选手来说，这说明他们根本扛不住那种突然加速——就像有些东非选手，会在比赛中突然冲个4分25秒的配速，然后又慢回4分50秒。
And for marathoners specifically, it tells me they are not going to be able to handle a surge like sometimes you see with, you know, East Africans will drop a, for the men, like, four twenty five mile in the middle of it and then back off and run four fifty again.
但如果你连4分25秒的加速都扛不住，再慢下来也跑不稳，那问题就大了。
But if you can't handle that four twenty five and back off, then you're in trouble.
你在这场比赛里根本没法竞争。
You're not going to be able to compete in that race.
在其他距离项目里也常是这样，比如田径场上的五公里，疲劳是慢慢累积、越来越重的。
And it's often the same in other distance events where, let's say, a five k on the track is the fatigue gradually builds and builds and builds.
你也许能撑得住，对吧？
So you might be able to handle it, right?
但总有个临界点，疲劳累积到你不得不动用无氧储备才能维持配速，这就意味着，真到冲刺的时候，你的无氧能量早就耗光了。
But it's going to get to some point where that gradually builds and builds and builds, where you're going to have to suck into that anaerobic reserve you have to be able to stay on that pace, which means when push comes to shove and it's time to kick, you've already used your anaerobic reserve.
这种交替波动训练的好处主要有两点。
And what these alternation flux training often does is it allows us to two things.
一是能让你跑得更久而不去碰无氧储备，二是让你学会应对那些轻微的配速波动——哪怕偶尔用了一点无氧能量，也能及时恢复，不至于把底牌全掏光。
It allows us to go longer without dipping into that anaerobic reserve and handling some of the and two, it allows us to handle some of the minor fluctuations where we might tap into it a little bit, but we're able to back off and recover enough so that we're not saying, hey, we utilize this.
一旦无氧储备用没了，就再也补不回来了，冲刺时你只能干瞪眼。
It's never coming back, essentially, and we're we're we're screwed for the kick.
所以我觉得，这种交替训练的价值特别大，它教会我们一套实用的技巧，而这些技巧，往往在东非运动员的法特莱克训练里自然就掌握了，西方选手却很少具备。
So that's where I think this this kind of alternation work has even more bang for our buck is it gives us these school these tools kits and tool sets that, again, you often see naturally from, you know, East African fartlek training that the Western athletes don't.
确实很有效。
Yeah, really works.
真的，特别有效。
Like it really, really works.
举个例子吧，我以前带丹尼尔·埃雷拉训练的时候。
You know, a good story is like say, when I was working with Daniel Herrera, right?
我们常做的一种长距离波动训练是三个3000米，每段3000米以他的3000米配速跑，中间穿插100米——那时候我没叫它恢复，而是称它为‘假恢复’、‘伪恢复’。
One of our go to longer flux workouts would be a three k, like two or three by a three k on the track with 400 meters at his three k effort, and then a 100 meter, you know, instead of calling it recovery, I think at that time I called it fake recovery, false recovery, pseudo recovery.
彼得·汤普森在他的乳酸动态训练网站上讲得特别清楚，他算是最早让我接触这个理念的导师，他管这100米叫‘渐进段’，但这个所谓的‘假恢复’段，其实是按他的10000米配速跑的。
Peter Thompson, with his lactate dynamics training website, if you really want to dive deep, he was a mentor who first really exposed me to this, and he frames it very clearly, he calls them roll ons, but that 100 meter roll on, or fake recovery portion, would then be at his, was at his 10 ks pace, right?
也就是不能慢于某个配速。
So we, or no slower than a certain pace.
所以我跟他说，别低于2分25秒。
So I'd say no slower than 25.
他跑3000米的时候是2分6到2分4，但这100米的假恢复段，至少得保持2分25秒。
So he's running, you know, 66 to 64, and then no slower than 25 for, you know, the 100.
如果你想想三千米训练，其实就是五百米一段，四百米按配速跑，一百米轻松带一下，也就是所谓的滚动恢复，节奏适中，这样算下来就是六组五百米。
And, you know, you'd essentially, if you think about at three k, well, those are 500 meter chunks with a 400 meter at pace, a 100 meter float, if you will, roll on, moderate, what have you, then that's, you know, six by 500.
但这些都连在一起，当成一次连续跑，跑完才休息。
Like but it's all together, string together as one continuous run, and then we take a break.
然后才真正好好恢复，就是那种实实在在的、真正的恢复。
And then we take the real, real recovery, like, you know, honest, well, as, you know, honest recovery.
因为那时候我把那种恢复叫做虚假恢复和真实恢复。
Because I think at that time I was calling false recovery and honest recovery.
关键是，每个人对‘恢复’的理解都不一样，所以就像我之前说的，要搞清楚到底在发生什么真的很难。
Because that's the thing, like, everyone's terminology for what recovery is can change, and so it's so tough to, you know, as I've said before, discern what's going on.
但弗兰克·肖特在他的书《通往金牌之路》里提到过，当他能连续跑十二组四百米，每组配速在62到61秒，中间只带五十米轻松跑时，他就知道自己马拉松状态很好了。
But Frank Shorter used this, he said in his book, know, Road to Gold or whatever, is he always knew he was in really good marathon shape when he could do 12 times 400 at 62 to 61 with 50 meter float.
我那时候能完成这个训练，就说明我的马拉松状态不错。
I was in good marathon shape when I could do that workout.
他训练时是循序渐进的：先把四百米的速度提上去，恢复段先不管；等四百米的配速稳定了，再慢慢缩短中间的轻松段，从两百米减到一百五十米，再往下调整。
And he would progress towards, and how you try to do it is first he'd quicken the 400 to where it needed to be and didn't worry about the recovery, and then once he stabilized the four hundreds to where they needed to be, he would then shorten the float, and the float or that that rest period, relief period, will go down from 200 meters to one fifty to what have you.
但这在当时可是非常普遍的做法。
But this was super common practice.
五六十到七十年代，这做法特别常见。
Super common practice back in the fifties, sixties, and seventies.
真的非常普遍。
Super common.
后来我们渐渐忘了它，因为实验室里的人开始推崇最大摄氧量。
And then we lost sight of it because v o two max became the thing that the lab coats were saying.
大家非得按特定配速、特定频率、保持稳态，然后休息，说是这样心脏才不会出问题。
We gotta do it at this pace, at this frequency, at this steady state, and then take a recovery because then the heart woah.
这说法也不是完全错，但就像八十年代冒出的很多东西一样，我们把它看得太重，反而忽略了其他真正有用的方法。
And it's, like, not totally out wrong, but just like everything that came out in the 80s, we overemphasized the import of it at the cost of other things that were really doing us of service.
没错。
Exactly.
我觉得关键在于，这种训练方式本身没错，只是它只是众多刺激中的一种，身体太复杂了，我们需要的是全面的训练。
I think that's the key there is it's not that that stimulus is wrong, it's that it's only one stimulus that, and the body is complex and we need all these other things.
我觉得这就是训练的历史规律，总是在过度强调某一点和回归现实之间来回摇摆。
And I think that's where every training, if you look throughout history, we go through this ebb and flow where we overemphasize something and then come back to reality.
我们做这个播客，其实就想传达一个想法——不管你怎么称呼它，这种‘波动训练’其实是在提醒我们：
And I think what we're kind of hoping in this podcast is that this whatever you want to call it, this Flux Training is kind of a, hey.
我们把这些东西给忘了。
We forgot about this stuff.
其实以前做得特别好的，比如萨里蒂这些人，
And you know who else did this very well was, like, Sarity and
就是那些人。
those guys.
我觉得他们当时的训练方式就是。
I think was trained just
那样。
that.
我
I
说到底就是这么回事。
mean, really is.
对。
Yeah.
他们意识到，得把训练方式搞得丰富多样，各种花样都来点。
It it's they figured out like, hey, we need to vary the crap out of this and have different whatevers.
而且很多时候，这都是自然而然发生的。
And often it was kind of natural.
这可以追溯到很久以前，比如帕沃·努尔米的训练方式，他用过那种飞驰的间歇跑，就是靠这种自然的变速跑，后来瑞典运动员也接过了这种方法，等等这些。
And this is, you know, going all the way back, this was like Pavonerme's training for a while too, the flying fins, because they use that natural fartlek, where it's like, you know, how that's where it kind of came, and then the Swedish runners took it over, all that stuff.
但我们后来却把这套方法丢一边了，因为我们更喜欢简单直接的东西。
And we kind of threw that by the wayside because we like things.
越大越简单越好。
Big and simple.
我们就喜欢越大越简单越好。
We like big and simple.
我们就喜欢简单直接的。
We love big and simple.
在我看来，利德亚德的做法简直是营销天才。
That was like, Lidyard's, you know, in my mind is is marketing genius.
数字大，但方法简单。
Big number, simple.
每周跑一百英里，保持这个配速。
100 miles a week at this pace.
对，就是这样。
Yes, exactly.
我的意思是，这其实很有道理。
No, I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense.
问题是我们简化得过头了，丢掉了那种细腻的调整，现在我们正努力把这种细腻重新带回来——特别是如果你还没做过这些训练，那就先引入，但保持简单。
And what happened is we simplified too much and we lost that kind of nuance and we're trying to bring back that nuance of, hey, especially if you haven't done these workouts, introduce them and keep it simple.
也许这就是关键所在。
And maybe this is the takeaway.
就是，保持简单。
It's like, keep it simple.
你可以像约翰和我说的那样，从200米间歇跑开始，或者直接来一场很自然的变速跑。
You could start with, as John and I have said, like 200 meter repeats, or you can do a really natural fartlek.
我的意思是，哪怕只是给高中生初次引入这项训练时，核心也是一样。
I mean, even the heart of it, right, with the introducing to the high school kids.
伊格洛伊有个训练方法，鲍勃·舒尔经常提到，而且他在所有文章和采访里都特别强调这一点。
So Iglooi had this protocol that Bob Schul talks about, and it was adamant in all of Bob Schul's publications and interviews.
这叫轻松跑。
It's called fresh runs.
说白了，就是轻松跑。
Essentially, it's fresh runs.
具体做法是：100米以中等偏上的强度跑，大概相当于5公里或3公里的配速，然后慢慢减速，立刻转身，走回起点，再重复一次。
And what it is, it's a 100 meters, you know, at this kind of moderate, harder effort, so like five k, three k type effort, and then it's a deceleration in an immediate turnaround, walk back to the starting line, and do it again.
整个流程大约20秒全力跑，接着20秒减速、转身、重新开始——这就算所谓的恢复了。
So it's about twenty seconds on, and twenty seconds decelerate, turn around, and restart, quote unquote recovery.
这确实是恢复训练，你只是慢慢减速，停下，走四五步，然后在草地上来回重复。因为Iglooly特别喜欢在草地上训练，顺便说一句，这也是为什么牙买加选手这么厉害、Iglooly的训练方法这么有效的原因之一——在柔软、缓冲性好的地面上训练，会迫使身体产生更多的僵硬感和张力，从而提升能量回弹效率。
And it truly is a recovery, you just gradually decel out, stop, walk through your four or five steps, and you just go back and forth on a grass field, because that's where Iglooly loved to train, was a grass field, which, by the way, side tangent here, one reason why the Jamaicans are so good, one reason why Iglooys are so good is they train on a grass field, and we know when you train on a softer type, less compliant surface, it then forces the body to manufacture and create more stiffness or tension in its system that gives you a higher energy return.
所以当你把这种训练效果带到坚硬、平坦、弹性极小的跑道上时，突然间就会获得巨大的能量爆发和推进力，而在草地这种柔软、有弹性的地面上，你是感受不到这种效果的。
So then when you translate your to competitiveness to a hard, flat, very very comp less compliant surface, then all of sudden you get this big boom energy boost and thrust that you didn't have on that more compliant yielding surface like a grass.
我们回到正题。
Back on course here.
好的。
Okay.
他每次训练都从十组fresh runs开始。
So and that was how he started every single workout was 10 times fresh runs.
就是十次一百米，以三千米配速跑，二十秒内完成减速、转身、再出发。
So 10 times a 100 meters at this kind of three k type pace, twenty second turnaround, go back and forth.
他们用这个动作来判断运动员当天的状态如何。
They used that as their screen to figure out how the athlete was feeling for that day.
我看到这个方法后就觉得，太棒了，太厉害了，简直绝了。
So I read this and I go, this is brilliant, this is amazing, this is awesome.
所以这正是我带高中田径队员训练的核心内容。
So I just that is the bread and butter backbone of my training program with the high school track athletes I work with.
每天热身之后，我们第一件事就是做动态热身，然后全队绕跑道慢跑一圈，再做几组跨栏跑，最后才是快速跑——因为快速跑能最直接反映队员当天的状态。
Every day, the first thing that we would do after the general warm up, right, and our general pre run warm up would be the dynamic warm ups with the team after that, you know, customary lap jog around the track, and then some wicket runs, and then it'd be fresh runs, because the fresh run was the stimulus that would indicate how they're feeling.
就连非训练日，或者不练田径的那天，甚至赛前热身，我们也都沿用这套流程。
And this was also protocol for non workout days, non days where we're gonna do things on the track, even protocol for the pre meet drill.
他们实际上是在不同时间段里做这些快速跑，每组从两个起步，最多做到八个。
So they were literally doing these fresh runs in pockets of, you know, from anywhere we start off with two in a set to maximum eight in a set.
对吧？
Right?
每次总共跑200到800米，以三千米配速在草坪场地上进行，每次100米，几乎每天都会做。
So 200 meters to 800 meters total worth of cumulative work at this three k effort on a grass infield, 100 meters, and that was daily, pretty much near daily.
除非彻底休息，否则每次训练都会以这种跑法开始，有时候结束前还会再来一次。
Unless we took a total day off, every practice would include that type of work to start and sometimes also to finish the day.
这样我们就通过这种方式获得了力量刺激，而且这种极短的二十秒恢复时间，其实根本算不上休息。
So we're getting that, you know, strength stimulus in that way, And then what that can do is it can build this bridge because we know that twenty seconds, that razor thin recovery is nothing.
根本算不上什么。
It's absolutely nothing.
我给孩子们用来衡量进步的核心训练，就是在跑道上做400米重复跑，每次之间只休息二十秒，几乎没时间喘气。
And the cornerstone workout that I had for the kids to kind of measure progress was repeat 400 meters on the track with twenty seconds or razor thin recovery.
对吧？
Right?
目标一直都是：你不能比某个配速更慢地跑完这400米。
And the goal would always be, you know, you're not going to run the 400 meter slower than x.
你可以随便选什么速度跑，但我们会做两组，每组四次400米，每次之间只歇二十秒，几乎没时间喘气，我们管这叫400米训练。
So you can run, I don't care, whatever pace you want, but, like, we're gonna do two sets of four times 400 with twenty seconds razor thin recovery, and, you know, we call it the 400 meter drill.
你不能比那个配速更慢。
And you're not gonna run any slower than x.
对大多数运动员来说，这个配速通常就是他们3公里的节奏。
And that was usually their either their three k pace for most athletes.
果然，随着赛季推进，我们从四组四次，慢慢加到五组四次，再加到六组四次。
And sure enough, like, as we went through the season, that became our, you know, sets became four by four, five by four, six by four.
我的意思是，我们最后做到的最大量就是三组，每组六个400米，中间只休息二十秒，全程保持三千米配速。
I mean, that was the max we topped out at, was three sets of six by 400 meters with twenty seconds recovery at your three ks pace.
我发现，对于高中生、年轻选手或者还没完全发育好的运动员来说，这二十秒的短暂休息，其实就是喘口气、调整状态、恢复一下、转个身再继续，完全不会对身体造成负面影响，反而能给心理一点缓冲，让你在后面越来越累的时候，还能保持专注完成下一组。
What I found for the high school athlete, or a younger athlete, or a less developed athlete, is that twenty seconds of just basically just going catch your breath, recalibrate, digest, turn around, get going, doesn't create any kind of adverse effects in the physiology of what you're doing, but it does give you that little mental relief so you can stay focused enough to get through, the next rep as things get harder.
但话说回来，我们这么做，其实是在为真正的突破铺路，因为每天的训练都得从头再来。
But, again, we're building a bridge to that because every day, fresh runs.
我特别喜欢这个说法。
I love that.
而且我觉得，也许现在正好可以总结一下：我很认同‘搭桥’这个概念。
And I, you know, maybe this is a good place to kind of summarize is that I love the idea of bridging a bill, building a bridge.
也许这就是看待所有训练的一种方式——我们常常卡住了。
And maybe that's like, that's how, if we look at all training, what happens is often we get stuck.
我们一直在积累、积累、积累，按传统的方式。
We're building, we're building, we're building, and that's in the traditional manner.
但最后却没把这些建设和真正的目标连起来，对吧？
And then we don't build that bridge to anything else, right?
我们把这些训练内容分成了一个个独立的部分。
And we have these separate components.
我们有间歇训练、节奏跑、乳酸阈值训练，但这些训练方式之间却缺乏连接的纽带。
We have our interval training, we have our tempo, our threshold training, and there's no kind of bridge to connect those ideas and concepts.
我觉得这就是Flux训练、交替冲刺、法特莱克跑、乳酸动态这些方法真正发挥作用的地方——它们能成为至关重要的桥梁，提供一种新的刺激，帮你把平时做的各种传统训练方式串联起来。
And I think this is where Flux Training, alternation surges, fartleks, lactate dynamics, all those good words we could call, really kind of comes into play, is that it can serve as this vital bridge and this new stimulus that allows you to connect different types and styles of traditional workouts that we do.
是的，我正想说这个。
Yeah, I'm
我来念一段《Run With The Best》这本书里本森和雷对有氧能力跑的总结，写得特别精炼，一针见血。
gonna just read you the summary that Run With The Best book with Benson and Ray give for aerobic power running, because it's just succinct and it just nails it.
就是这段。
Here it is.
有氧能力跑。
So aerobic power running.
有氧能力训练通常持续十五到三十五分钟，最贴切的描述就是冲刺间歇。
Aerobic power workouts normally last fifteen to thirty five minutes and may be best described as surge intervals.
稳态跑和五公里或八公里比赛以这个强度进行也非常有效，因为配速或心率略高于乳酸阈值，但还没达到最大摄氧量。
Steady state runs and five ks or eight ks races at this intensity are also very valuable, however, because the pace or heart rate is above threshold but marginally below max VO2.
大多数有氧功率训练都以波动间歇的形式进行。
The majority of aerobic power workouts will be done as surge intervals.
这种训练持续二十到三十五分钟，分成三十秒到四十秒、三十秒到四分钟，或者200米到1200米的加速段，以目标比赛配速或最大心率的85%到92%进行，紧接着立即进行三十秒到两分钟、200米到600米的恢复段，恢复时必须快跑，而不是慢跑。
This consists of twenty to thirty five minute efforts broken into thirty second to forty or thirty second to four minute or 200 meters to 1,200 meter surges at goal race pace, or 85 to 92% of maximum heart rate, and followed immediately by thirty seconds to two minutes, or 200 meters to 600 meters, recoveries that are runs, not jogged, at the fastest pace possible.
比如，一个目标五公里跑进14分钟的运动员，可以做八组400米，每组以目标配速跑完后接200米的缓冲段。
For example, an athlete targeting fourteen minutes for five k could cruise eight times 400 meters at goal pace 70 with a 200 meter float.
刚开始，运动员在200米恢复段可能需要休息将近90秒。
Initially the athlete will take up to ninety seconds jog for the 200 meter recovery.
如果恢复时间这么长，这个训练仍然属于传统间歇训练。
With a recovery taking that long, the workout would still be considered a traditional interval one.
但运动员的目标是逐步缩短恢复时间，直到200米的恢复段只需大约45秒完成。
The athlete's aim, however, would be to reduce this sustainability until the jogs are reduced to somewhere around forty five seconds for 200 meters.
当运动员在恢复段已经跑得尽可能快，不再是以慢跑或无紧迫感的方式移动时，这个训练就从传统间歇转变成了波动训练。
It could be said that the change from a traditional interval workout to a surge workout occurs once the athlete appears to be running as briskly as possible through the recovery rather than still jogging or running without a sense of urgency.
太棒了。
Love it.
这话说得真精炼。
That's a pretty succinct.
确实很精炼。
Pretty succinct.
总结得真好。
Great summary.
我特别喜欢，你知道吗？这书都写出来快二十五年了，差不多吧。
And I love that it was written, you know, gosh, I don't know, twenty five years ago, something like that.
所以你知道吗？
So you know what?
如果你想更深入了解这本书，你知道去哪儿找吗？
If you wanna learn more and go deeper on that book, you know where you can?
学者计划，老铁。
Scholar program, baby.
赶紧报名吧。
Sign up.
你还等什么？
Why are you waiting?
没错。
That's right.
加入读书会吧。
Join the book club.
我们可以深入探讨这本书，还有其他书籍，就在我们的新读书会里。
We can go deep and unpack that book and others in our new book club.
快来加入吧。
So join on in.
希望这次播客能给你带来一些新的启发，还有一些可以尝试的方法。
We hope again that this podcast maybe gave you some interesting insight and some things to try.
如果你还没试过，还卡在传统间歇训练里，不妨慢慢加入一些这种波动训练，看看效果如何。
If you haven't yet, if you're stuck on traditional intervals, try introducing some of this Flux Training gradually and see what happens.
我相信你会对结果感到惊喜和满意。
And I think you'll be surprised and happy with the results.
没错，不管你是学者还是只是在推特上关注，都可以随时找史蒂夫或者我聊聊，有问题尽管问。这正是我们一直提倡的中庸之道、注重细节的路径最有趣的地方——微小的调整能带来巨大的改变，但有时候你容易搞混，或者忽视了什么是真正的细微差别。就像我们在这档播客里反复说过的，相关术语太模糊、太不统一了，根本没明确的定义或分类体系。
Yeah, give Steve or I a shout out, you know, whether you're a scholar or just on Twitter, if you have questions about it, because it's the fun part about the middle path that we preach, the nuance path that we preach is subtle changes make big differences, and sometimes it's easy to get confused or easy to ignore what subtlety actually looks like, because again, like we've said so many times on this podcast, the language used is so variable and opaque that we don't have clear definitions or clear taxonomy about it.
但只要你和运动员都清楚什么时候该做什么，你就一定能成功。
But as long as you have a good grasp and the athlete has a good grasp about what's expected when, then you're gonna be successful.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
好了，各位。
Alright, everybody.
那我们下次再聊。
Well, until next time.
希望你们喜欢这期播客。
We hope you enjoyed the podcast.
推荐给朋友吧，祝大家训练顺利。
Share it with a friend, and good coaching, everybody.
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