Episode 5-Handling Transitions- What separates people from making the jump to the next level

欢迎回到《马格努斯与马库斯》播客的又一期节目。

Welcome back to another episode of the Magnus and Marcus podcast.

和往常一样，我今天和乔恩·马库斯在一起。

I'm here with Jon Marcus as always.

欢迎你，乔恩。

Welcome, Jon.

嗨，史蒂夫。

Hey, Steve.

很高兴能活着回来，还在呼吸，2015年也照样活得好好的。

Glad to be back, alive, breathing, and still kicking in 2015.

是的。

Yep.

现在正好是室内赛季中期，能坚持下来就已经不错了。

Still making it in middle of indoor season, so surviving.

这周我们聊了一个我觉得挺有意思的话题，简单说就是转型。

So this week, we discussed talking about a topic that I think will be pretty interesting, basically summed up as transitioning.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得我们可以从好几个不同角度来看待这个问题，我们待会儿肯定会聊到，但从我们的角度来看，比如学生从高中毕业，进入大学的训练体系，这就是一个过渡。

And I think we can look at this from a number of different perspectives, which I know we will, but from our world, or our worldview, we have transitions from coming from high school kids, coming into our programs at the college university setting.

还有另一个大的过渡，就是那些能坚持下来的运动员，从大学进入职业领域，我觉得这两个阶段各自都有独特的挑战。

And then we also have another big transition, which is coming from college to, for those who make it, the professional setting, which I think both kind of present their own unique and different challenges.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

说到底，谈到过渡，其实跟我们之前聊过的很多内容都有关联，比如‘清零效应’啊，各种方面，但这个过程本身更像是一场特别有意思的心理学课题。

I mean, it's when you think about transitioning, it's it's all about you know, it kinda interconnects a lot of stuff we've already talked about, like the clean slate phenomenon, you know, different aspects, but it it's so much more this kinda interesting psychological study.

因为我觉得，这种过渡不仅仅是环境变了，身体位置变了，更是心理和情绪上的转变，同时对自信、竞争力，以及最终追求卓越的标准，要求也全都提升了。

Because I feel like you're transitioning different environments, not only physically, but mentally and emotionally, as well as, like, raising the level of expectation about what's confident, what is competitive, and then what's ultimately highly, highly excellent.

对吧？

Right?

要知道，高中时跑得再好，也不代表就能成为顶尖的一级联盟运动员。

Because, you know, being an excellent high school cross country or track and field athlete doesn't necessarily necessarily mean you mean excellent or highly competitive division one athlete.

也许你所在的州或者联赛水平，更适合转到NCAA三级，以此类推。

Maybe the state you're in or the division you're in is gonna translate well to NAI d three and then so on and so forth.

就算你高中时是顶尖的一级联盟田径选手，也不意味着你一进大学就能冲进奥运会、拿奖牌。

You know, maybe being a really high competitive division one track and field athlete doesn't gonna mean you're gonna get in and all of a sudden go to the Olympics and medal in the Olympics.

所以，别以为只要你在某个级别表现不错，下一个级别就会顺理成章地水到渠成。

So it's it's not these givens that just because you're playing at playing the game at this division or these levels that the next level is gonna be a smooth layer progression.

很多时候，我们容易忘记生活本身，尽管我们总习惯把它规划得像一条直线。

And so many times, I think, you know, there's a tendency to forget about life even though we draft it and kind of plot it as linear.

但现实是，它更像道琼斯指数。

The reality is it's very you know, it's like the Dow Jones market.

有起有落，这才是常态。

It's up and down, baby.

我们要做的是，从长远来看——五年、六年、七年，甚至十年、十五年、二十年——培养一个整体向上的趋势，而不是被每周、每月的起伏牵着鼻子走。

So, you know, it's how do we create a linear trend or a smooth progressional trend when you step back from a global perspective and look at it over the course of five, six, seven years, ten years, fifteen years, twenty years, but not get too caught up in the ups and downs that happen kind of from the moment to moment, week to week, month to month, you know, progression.

是的

Yeah.

我觉得你说得很有道理。

I think I think that's a good point.

从大学的角度来看，我见过很多学生刚进入新项目、新环境时，总是习惯用一种短期的眼光来看待问题，对吧？

I mean, from the college standpoint, I I know I see a lot of kids when they come into a new program, new environment, is they're so used to taking this acute view, right?

他们只盯着每一次训练、每一场比赛的表现，把这当成决定整个赛季成败的唯一标准。

It's this workout to workout success, or one race to the next race success, that has this almost overarching defining their success for the season.

但实际情况就像你所说的，并不是线性上升的，而是有起有落、有高峰有低谷。

And what happens is you get it's not this linear progression, like you said, and it's these bumps and valleys and peaks and valleys on all this stuff.

当你刚进入新项目，心想‘进了大学，我肯定能跑得飞快’，就很容易被这些细微的波动牵着走，根本没法跳出来，从更长远的角度去看问题，你懂我的意思吧？

But when you're coming at it from moving on to a new program, thinking, oh, this is college, I'm going to run fast, is you get so drawn into these minute changes that you can't, you lack the ability to step back, if that makes sense.

对。

Mhmm.

是的

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我注意到，带过高中队，也带过大学队，甚至那些刚毕业、刚进入新环境的新人，有时候会遇到这种情况。

You know, I think sometimes what I've noticed with freshmen having coached high school and coached college, and even, you know, what I call freshmen post collegiate, you know, people who are just out of college, new into the scene.

你知道吧。

You know?

到了高中最后两年，你终于摸清了那个环境、那个节奏，明白了该达到什么水平、什么竞争力，怎样才能成功。

It it's this really tough reality where your junior, senior year, you finally have figured out that landscape and that environment and that, you know, level of expectation, competency, competitiveness, what you need to be do you need to do to be successful there.

可一毕业，你就被硬生生拉出了那个体系。

And then you get ripped from high school.

你被拉出了大学里的排名和光环。

You get ripped from the college ranking.

突然被扔进一个更激烈、更残酷的环境，跟之前完全不一样，很多人就慌了。

You're thrust into even more competitive environment, more cutthroat environment relative to where your previous work, and people start to freak out on you.

我常对新生说，尤其是你们，每个赛季都有机会调整，我们一年三个阶段，轮流推进。

You know, what I always tell freshmen, especially, it's like, freshmen, you guys are allowed every season if we're talking the three season to move, we just cycle across between or after.

这个赛季，你们允许有一次状态特别差的训练。

You guys are allowed about pretty bad workout this season.

你明白吗？

You know?

因为这种事情肯定会发生。

And if because it's gonna happen.

你会熬夜到太晚。

You're gonna stay up too late.

你会为期中考试紧张得要命。

You're gonna stress out about a midterm.

你会为新谈的男朋友，或者重新联系前任而心烦意乱。

You're gonna stress out about, you know, a new boyfriend or picking up with a boyfriend.

你懂的？

You know?

这些事都会发生，到时候你可能来训练时就说：嘿。

Those things will happen, and you might come to workout day and be like, hey.

你知道吗？

You know what?

你知道，那天你干脆就别练了。

You know, you can just lay an egg on that day.

因为我们学校把锻炼日设计成集体活动，作为管理层，我们没这个灵活性。

And because we're kinda weighted to that structure of workout days as a group activity in the college system, we don't have the luxury as a post executive.

比如说，你看看。

Like, you say, look.

你状态太差了。

You look awful.

你今天明显不在状态，根本没法练。

You don't look right you know, ready to go today.

我们会把你的时间往后推一两天。

We're gonna move you or your workout back a day or two.

但问题是，这些小状况一旦变成常态，大家都会注意到。

But the thing is it's noticed, like, those hiccups will happen now if it's a trend.

如果连续五次、六次、七次训练都没做好，或者没达到预期，也没发挥出你的水平，那问题就不是出在适应环境上，而是你整体的调整出了问题。

If it's five, six, seven workouts don't go well or up to plan or up to your capacity, then there's a much bigger issue at heart about how you overall adapting rather than transitioning to the environment.

你需要认清那些压力源，还有生活中那些自我破坏的行为——不管是睡眠不足、营养不良、补水不够，还是其他更复杂、更隐蔽但同样重要的因素。

And recognizing what those levels of stress, what those self sabotage items are in your life, whether it's, you know, the big free sleep, nutrition, hydration, or if it's something else that's a little bit more complex, a little bit more subtle, but equally important.

没错。

Exactly.

我们其实有个说法。

I mean, we we have a concept.

我们叫它‘赢下训练’。

We call it winning the workout.

如果你赢的训练远多于输的，那你就走在正确的轨道上，这些进步最终会体现在比赛里。

If you win way more workouts than you lose, we're on a good projected trend, and things will translate into the race.

可要是输的训练开始超过赢的，那就说明你陷入了一个恶性循环。

If we start losing more workouts than we win, we're on a bad cycle.

就像你说的，我们会按阶段来分析这些情况。

Just like you said, we look at it in terms of our broken down seasons.

如果我们每隔一周半到两周就输掉一次训练，那就说明我们做得不够好。

And if we start seeing losing one workout every week and a half or so, week and a half to two weeks, then we know we're doing a bad job.

如果每次训练后你都感觉不错，慢慢就会在比赛中体现出来，哪怕现在还没看到效果。

If the workouts were continually walking away from them, feeling pretty good about them, then we know it's going to translate into the races eventually, if it hasn't yet.

这个观点说得很好。

I think that's a good point, being made.

我注意到另一个现象，不管是高中生还是职业运动员，都普遍存在这种比较。

One of the other things I see, whether it's high school or professionally, is this comparison.

人们习惯了在高中阶段，或者大学阶段，总和同一拨人比赛，比如州锦标赛或者大学联盟的赛事。

Is that people are so used You go from your, let's say your high school environment or even your college environment, where you're used to racing the same people at your high school state meets or your conferences in college.

你跟这些人经常比，自然就形成了一个排名顺序，对吧？

You're used to racing these guys all the time and you establish this pecking order, right?

但后来你去了不同的大学，或者进入了不同的职业领域。

And then you go off to your separate colleges or your separate professional domains.

由于环境的转变，这个排名有时候就会被打乱，对吧？

Then just because of the transition, sometimes that pecking order just gets messed up a little bit, right?

突然间，你赢了以前从来没赢过的人，而那些你从来没输过的对手，现在反而赢了你。

All of a sudden, you're beating people who you've never beat before, and then there's people who you never lost to who are beating you.

我知道，很多刚从高中或大学出来的优秀运动员，多多少少都会遇到这种困扰。

And I know that's something that a lot of really good athletes, I think, coming out of high school or college struggle with to a degree.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

这其实关乎你的世界观，我觉得是这样。

It's all about, you know, to I think your your form of your word worldview.

对。

Right?

没错。

Right.

比如在高中阶段，州内不同级别之间就有明显的区分。

So we have like, in the high school ranks, there's different divisions within the state.

大多数人只关注自己在所在分区、甚至所在州里的排名。

Most people are just focused in on how they compare in their division, you know, in their state, maybe.

高中阶段水平高一点的运动员，眼光会更开阔一些，会看看自己在全国是个什么水平。

And, you know, a little higher level type athletes at the high school range, they have a broader, you know, view of how they compare, you know, nationally.

极少有高中生会去想，自己在全球范围内是个什么水平。

Very few high school kids are thinking how they compare globally.

他们跟肯尼亚的长跑选手、德国的投掷选手、俄罗斯的跳高选手比起来怎么样？

How do they compare to the distance drivers in Kenya, the throwers in Germany, the high jumpers in Russia.

他们根本不会这么想。

They're not thinking that.

对吧？

Right?

上大学后也差不多，很多人还是眼界太窄，只盯着自己所在联盟、所在地区或者所在级别里的表现。

So then even in college too, there's a little bit of a narrow mindedness of focusing in on either how you compare within your conference, within your region, or within your division.

我之前跟一个前一级联盟跑步运动员聊天，正好就谈到过这个差异。

You know, like, we I was talking to a former division one runner friend of mine, and we're talking about, you know, the difference this exactly this.

那在大学里，谁是最厉害的长跑选手？

Like, who's the best distance runner in college?

谁是大学里最出色的撑杆跳运动员？

Who's the best pole vaulter in college?

是看现在赛季高峰期成绩最快的人，还是看最终夺冠的人？

Is it the person with the fastest mark now, right now in the heart of the season, or is it the person who wins the championship?

比如，二级联赛的400米栏全国冠军，可能比一级联赛的400米栏冠军更强，但他们没能在同一时间、同一场地同场竞技。

But the division two national champion in, like, the four meter hurdles might be better than division one national champion in the four meter hurdles, but they didn't get a race on the championship day at the same place at the same time.

所以我们总是不自觉地形成一种精英心态，觉得一级联赛才是大学里人才最密集、水平最高的。

So we we have a tendency to, you know, kinda create this elitism where, well, division one's the best that has the highest density of competitive talent in the nation for the college.

但这并不意味着二级、三级或者NCAA三级的运动员就没法跟他们一较高下。

But that's not to say you might have a really good d two, d three, or AI athlete that can compete.

也许如果他们在决赛那天和一级选手同场竞技，某个NCAA三级的1500米选手，反而可能是全国最强的大学生中跑选手，但我们根本无从得知，因为这种比较偏见和精英主义让我们直接下定论。

And maybe if they're on the race the right day at the championship right alongside those guys, an AI, you know, miler might actually be the best collegiate miler in the nation, but we just really don't know because of this comparative bias or this elite elitism that we just say this and this and this.

当你大学毕业之后，这个思维还会进一步延伸——你可能会只盯着二级或一级联赛，其他都不看。

And you take that one step further when you then graduate from college and you can focus on division two or division one, what have you.

突然间，你就进入季后赛了。

Now all of sudden, you're postseason.

这时候，你得看整个国家所有长跑选手的整体情况。

It's like, well, now you're looking at this blanket, let's say, for distance running, all the distance runners in the nation.

对吧？

Right?

但问题在于，从全国级别来看，有太多不同的锦标赛了。

But the the trouble there is there's so many different championships from a national class perspective.

你有15公里公路赛冠军赛。

You have the fifteen k road championship.

还有越野赛、俱乐部赛，以及美国田协室内和室外锦标赛。

You have the cross country, you know, winner championships, club championships, and USATF indoors and outdoors.

还有美国田协半程马拉松锦标赛。

You have the USATF half marathon championships.

而锦标赛的本意，有时候就是让所有顶尖选手在那一天全力以赴，拿出最佳状态。

And the whole idea, you know, sometimes of a championship event is all the best people, all the athletes are bringing their best to that championship on that day.

这才是真正冠军赛的意义所在。

It's what makes it a true championship.

比如高中州际赛，或者大学室内、室外、越野锦标赛，不管哪个级别。

Like, you have the high school state meet or, you know, the indoor, outdoor, cross country collegiate championships, whatever division you have.

但在美国和美国田协的体系里，赛后往往就没了这种氛围，因为有人可能会说：我就是为了马拉松世锦赛才巅峰状态的。

You don't really get that post collegiously in American and USATF form because someone might just say, well, I'm really peeking for the marathon, USATF marathon championships.

这样一来，他们自然就放弃参加美国田协的室外赛或越野锦标赛了。

And then that precludes them from running USATF outdoors or the cross country championship.

所以，我们得退一步，从更全局的角度来看，再做出相应调整。

So, you know, it's again kind of stepping back and looking at that more global perspective and then adjusting to that.

再进一步说，到了职业联赛阶段，你面对的不只是全国范围的比拼，而是全球范围的较量。

And then one step further, even on the post league, you've seen is the is not only a national comparison, but the global comparison.

对吧？

Right?

你难道不想当一名奥运选手吗？

Do you wanna be an Olympian?

嘿。

Hey.

这不错。

That's great.

但你现在是想参加奥运会，第一轮就出局，还是想当一名奥运选手，争取拿奖牌？

But now do you wanna go to Olympics and get out in the first round, or do you wanna be an Olympian compete to win a medal?

你跟肯尼亚、日本、埃塞俄比亚、英国这些国家的顶尖选手比，实力到底怎么样？

How do you stack up against the best in, you know, Kenya, Japan, Ethiopia, you know, Britain, and all those types of things?

对我来说，心理和情感上最大的冲击在于，人们往往没准备好面对从高中到大学、再到大学毕业后这一连串的水平跃升。不管你如何看待这个世界，你的视野是狭窄还是开阔，都会直接影响你的训练方式、动力来源，以及你对自己的认知。

So and I that, to me, mentally and emotionally, that's the biggest shock is people are prepared for the comparison analysis jump they have to make from the or from, you know, high school to college to post collegiate because however you shape your worldview, however acute or broad it is, is gonna impact in how you're gonna approach your training, your motivation for it, and your also view of yourself.

你可能在自己的联盟里是明星，但在一级联赛的地区赛或全国赛中却连资格都拿不到。

Like, you might be the hotshot in your conference, but you're not qualifying the regionals or national at the division one level.

或者你可能创下了美国纪录，但你参加的项目，比如三级跳，从全球角度看，美国并不算强，美国的三级跳纪录在世界范围内可能根本算不上什么。

Or you might be, you know, setting American records, but the event you're in is, you know, something like the triple jump, which America is not really that competitive at in a world view, and an American record of triple jumps might not be that good at compared to where the world is in triple jumping prowess.

这确实是个非常关键的问题。

I mean, that that's a huge point.

我觉得这里发生的情况是，当我看到这些世界观的跃迁——从你的联盟级别，到全国层面，再到全球视野——我会觉得，人们在设立这些不同标准和参照点的时候，其实也在不断制造比较的基准。

And I think what happens there is this is the way I look at it, is when we create, when we see these different jumps of worldviews, your conference to your national view, to your worldview, to whatever it is, As I look at them as people create these different benchmarks and set points, they create these comparison points.

在他们自己的联盟锦标赛小圈子里，他们可能已经是顶尖选手了。

And within their own little world of their conference championship, they might be a stud.

于是他们就形成了一种想法：这样对我来说已经不错了。

So they create this viewpoint of like, this is good for me.

这就是我的标准。

This is my benchmark.

只要我能超过这个水平，我就算个好跑者。

If I do better than this, I'm a good runner.

我给你举个我们队的例子吧。

And and what happens so I'll give you example with my team.

我刚来的时候，休斯顿队里其实有不少有天赋的运动员，但他们的标准定得太低了。

When I came in, is we had some really talented runners at Houston, but their benchmark was set so low.

他们的期望值很低，因为他们根本没接触过全国大学级别的比赛。

Their expectations were so low because they weren't exposed to even the national college scene.

对吧？

Right?

所以我刚来的时候，跑个八分二十二秒的三千米就被认为是很快了，那还是我们学校的纪录呢。

So when I came in, it was perceived as fast to run you know, I think our school record was like eight twenty two in the three k.

对吧？

Right?

如果你一英里能跑进四分十秒，大家就觉得你特别快，因为这意味着你可能在联盟比赛中拿分了。

And it was perceived as fast if you ran sub four ten in the mile, because that meant, hey, you might score at conference.

所以当时的视野太狭窄了。

So the worldview was so small.

只要拓宽他们的视野，让他们接触到全国顶尖的大学生选手，甚至世界级的运动员，告诉他们：这才是真实的世界水平。

And just by expanding that and exposing those guys to national caliber college kids or national caliber, world class caliber athletes and saying like, hey, this is this is the actual world view.

只要让他们看到这些，再稍微加强训练，他们的期望值和标准一下子就提升了。

And just by exposing them, ensure a little bit of training, exposing them, like their their expectations and their norms just jumped.

现在呢，我们已经有好几位三千米跑进八分钟的轻量级选手，连非奖学金的队员都能跑出八分二十秒的成绩，因为八分二十已经不觉得快了。

So now it's at, now we have a couple low weight minute three ks guys and we have walk ons running 820s, and it's because eight twenty is no longer seen as fast.

就是觉得，哦，这事咱们得做，因为那个标准已经变了。

It's just like, Oh, this is something we should do, because that benchmark changes.

所以如果你能让他们以正确的方式适应，把新标准当成一种可以接受的新挑战，我觉得这种过渡就会很健康。

So if you can get them to adapt in the correct way and respond to thinking of that benchmark as a new norm, a new challenge that can be accepted, then I think you transition in a healthy way.

不健康的方式呢，你在职业圈里经常看到，比如看到肯尼亚选手达巴巴上周末室内跑出14分18秒，就觉得14分18秒——天啊，这根本不可能企及。

Unhealthy way is when you look at that transition and you see this on the pro side a lot, is you look at the Kenyan runners, let's say Dababa running fourteen eighteen indoors this past weekend, and you see that as fourteen eighteen, oh my God, that's untouchable.

结果你不是把这当成一个可以突破的标杆，反而把它当成一道高不可攀的墙，觉得根本不可能达到。

And now instead of having this benchmark degrade yourself off, you've created this ceiling, this wall that is untouchable, unbelievable.

我这辈子都别想靠近这个成绩。

I can't ever get close to that.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得这种心态，对一个人从一个阶段顺利过渡到下一个阶段影响特别大。

So I think that mindset right there has a huge impact on how well you transition from phase to phase.

没错。

Exactly.

我觉得这正是在打破纪录时特别容易出现的情况。

And I think that's the thing you have, especially when records are set.

人们总把运动员捧上神坛，还要求其他选手也这么看：他们可是校纪录保持者、美国纪录保持者、联盟纪录保持者，甚至是世界纪录保持者。

People put athletes on pedestal, and they ask competitors to put our athletes on pedestal saying, well, they're the collegiate record holder or American record holder or conference record holder or world record holder.

所以当这位创下计时赛成绩的纪录保持者去参加锦标赛时，大家就默认他已经是稳赢的了。

And so now when, you know, the record holder who's hit this time trial mark goes to a championship meet, they are then regarded as, alright.

其他人干脆直接认了，就等着拿第二名吧。

We're all just playing for second place type deal.

但实际情况是，锦标赛的比法根本不是计时赛那种有配速员、节奏完全控制、环境完美的比赛。

And the reality is when you guys win championship championship style racing is not time trial racing with rapids and pacer going out these speeds and everything that's orchestrated and set up for perfect conditions on the state.

比如说，同样是一万米，如果在休斯顿的NCAA锦标赛上跑，和在斯坦福的帕洛阿尔托跑出那个超快成绩，完全是两码事。

Like, championship style racing, if you're having the, you know, NCAA championship in Houston, Texas for a 10 k, that's a much different reality than having it at, you know, Palo Alto at Stanford and hitting that really fast mark.

所以我觉得，第二点是要重新思考：你到底为什么而跑。

And so I think, two, it's also realigning about why you're doing what you're doing.

你只是为了跑得特别快吗？

Are you just trying to run really, really fast?

你是拿自己跟过去的自己比，还是跟现在所谓的‘优秀标准’比？又或者，你真正想做的，是成为一个冠军级别的选手？

You compare yourself to past comparison or past incarnations of you or about what's, quote, unquote, good now, or are you really trying to focus yourself, you know, to be a championship competitor?

所以说，这其实是在不断塑造和重塑你的世界观。

So, again, it's really crafting and recrafting that worldview.

我经常提醒运动员们一件事：弗兰克·肖特，美国历史上最伟大的长跑运动员之一，高中时根本没跑出过个人最好成绩，直到大学三年级才突破。

I mean, one of the critical things I always remind student athletes is Frank Shorter, one of the greatest distance runners ever in American folklore in history, didn't PR at all in high school until his junior year of college.

他整整两年，成绩都没能超过高中时期。

Didn't, you know, run his lifetime best compared to his high school self for two years.

你想想看，

You know?

再想想他后来拿的奖牌、在马拉松上的成就，那些了不起的成就——要是他当时就觉得自己不行，放弃算了，

And when you think about that and then what he went on to accomplish later on with his, you know, his medals and, you know, his marathon prowess and all that great stuff is had he, you know, just said, oh, now I suck at running.

你想想，

You know?

要是他真觉得‘我根本不擅长跑步’，转身就走了，那会怎样？

I'm I'm no good at this and just moved on.

我们根本就看不到弗兰克·施韦特在赛场上的奋斗与拼搏所留下的故事。

We would never have the story that was Frank Schwert's legacy of competing and and racing.

这正是值得我们敬佩的地方——有人大学第一年没刷出个人最佳成绩，因为课业压力、训练负荷，再加上要建立新的人际关系，消耗太大了，很多事情不可能一下子顺起来。

And that's and that's something that is to be inspired by that person who might not be hitting, you know, all time PR marks their first year of college because the workloads in the classroom and the workloads on the sport of play and also the amount of time to invest in new relationships and new friendships is really, really high and mostly draining, and, you know, it's just not all clicking right away.

甚至到了大二也一样。

Or even your sophomore year.

对吧？

Right?

大二的时候很容易陷入低谷。

You go through that sophomore slump.

你大一那年表现太亮眼了，简直就是大家眼里的宝贝，备受关注。

Like, you had such a great first freshman year, and, like, maybe you're the the baby, like, the the, you know, apple of everyone's eye.

大一的时候，你还打破了学校的新生纪录。

Your freshman year, you brought, like, school right school freshman record.

你在联盟赛上跑得特别出色，那时候你就是抱着初生牛犊的心态，觉得——

You ran great at conference because you just had kinda that beginner's mindset of, hey.

这挺有意思的。

This is fun.

我就只是在跑步。

I'm just running.

感觉真好。

This is great.

你懂的。

You know?

到了大二，大家自然就期待你能有更大进步。

And then your sophomore year, there's always expectation to get a lot better.

这种事我见过太多了。

I've seen it so many times as well.

这时候，整个世界的压力好像突然压下来了——教练对你有期待，队友们有期待，你自己也有期待，而你可能还报了护理专业，突然要开始临床实习，每周得站上十到十五个小时。

And now the weight of the world, you know, kinda comes crashing down a little bit because now coach has his expectation on you, your teammates do, you do, and maybe you're in, like, a nursing program, and all of a sudden, starting to use clinicals where you're on your feet for ten to fifteen hours a week.

你懂的。

You know?

所以情况总是在变。

So it's it's always shifting.

一直在变化。

It's always changing.

那种线性进步的想法其实非常罕见。

So this idea of a a linear progression is very, very rare.

偶尔真有人在整个赛季或职业生涯中越跑越快，那才真值得称赞，因为虽然我们总以为这是常态，但实际上这完全是精心安排下的例外。

And when it does happen, when people get faster throughout the course of the season and or the course of their career, that's really something to applaud and champion because, you know, as much as we wanna think that's the norm, that's actually a very well orchestrated exception.

如果你看看很多人的真实成绩，很少有大学生或 postseason 的选手每场比赛都能明显进步，尽管每场比赛的目标都是这样，也期望每个赛季都能大幅跃升。

If you look at a lot of people's track records, very few, you know, collegians and postseasons get significantly better every race they run, even though that's the endgame and goal every race throughout a season, and ultimately make huge jumps improvement every single season of the season.

事实根本不是这样。

It just is not the case.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

通往巅峰的路其实要崎岖得多，我觉得我们往往没意识到这一点，总下意识觉得进步是台阶式的，但其实完全不是，这挺有意思的。

It's a it's a much, much more jagged road to the top, which I think is is something that we don't really appreciate that much because we see it as this kind of stair stepping model for some reason, but it's not that at all, which is interesting.

不过回到你刚才说的，我一直在想的是，当你变得优秀之后，该怎么管理别人的期待。

But getting back to what you were talking about a little bit is one of the things I always think about is how to manage those expectations once you get good.

你提到过一点，我也见过很多这样的情况：往往在经历重大突破后，就会迎来一段低谷。

So one of the things that you mentioned a little bit, and then I've seen a lot, is that oftentimes you hit a struggle after a big breakthrough.

因为你突然把表现提升到了一个新的层次。

Because all of a sudden, you take your performance to another level.

比如一个新生，刚来时一脸懵懂，没什么压力，反而破了不少纪录。

Let's say you're that freshman kid, comes in wide eyed, has no expectations, sets all sorts of records.

到了第二年，突然就意识到：我都已经到这个水平了，现在得再往上冲一个台阶。

Then the next year comes around and it's like, oh my gosh, like I'm at this level, now I have to get to this next level.

于是他们就开始拼命逼自己，对吧？

And they almost start trying to force it, right?

他们想强行推动进步，可大一那会儿，他们反而更懂得顺其自然，让成长水到渠成。

They're trying to push it, and trying to force things to happen when their freshman year, they were all about kind of letting it come to them and, and, letting themselves develop.

这简直就像是，无知反而成了优势，对吧？

It's almost that case where naivety is a bonus, right?

我们知道得太多，反而成了负担。

We know a little bit too much, becomes a drawback.

这反而拖了后腿。

It's hindering.

你有没有听过这种故事：一个刚进来的新生，对跑步一窍不通，靠着新的训练方法一路猛冲，可等他慢慢意识到自己有多厉害时，反而开始陷入低谷。

It's like a, you know, how many times have you heard the story of the, you know, kind of naive freshman come in, doesn't know anything about running, just takes off because of the new training and all that stuff, and then they start becoming aware of how good they actually are, and all of a sudden it's slump time.

所以我觉得，如果你看到有人经历了巨大突破，提前帮他们管理好预期，这一点特别重要。

So I think managing those expectations and almost pre preparing for it, if you see someone going through a really big breakthrough, is huge.

真正让你和别人区分开来的，是你如何从心理上应对这些突破，而不是陷入那些挫折，走上我们之前说的那条更曲折的路。

Mentally dealing with those breakthroughs is what sets you apart in terms of having some of those setbacks or having that more jagged versus that linear path that we kinda talked about.

对。

Right.

你看那些能挺过重大突破后继续前进的运动员，背后往往都有一个支持系统。

I think what you see is a support network in place for those athletes that are able to progress after that big break.

比如说，高中时总有个人老是赢你，但上了大学后，反而是你老赢他，尽管他在高中时比你强。

So maybe, you know, the the the comparison of someone x person beats you in high school all the time, but then you got to college, and then you beat person x all the time in college even though they're better than you in high school.

这背后可能有各种原因，但说实话，我觉得最主要还是大学或毕业后那种支持体系在起作用。

You know, maybe that's a product of many, many things, but my heart to heart is telling me, like, mostly it's about the support network created in that collegiate setting or in that post setting.

你经常能看到，尤其是刚毕业那会儿，他们一下子从大学里那种高度凝聚、全面支持的环境里走出来——那时候所有事都有人安排，比如比赛怎么参加？

And that's what you see, you know, most often or I see most often with post collegiate and immediate post collegiate is they go from this really cohesive, supportive environment where everything's taken care of in college, like, how are you getting the meets?

行程怎么安排？

What's the travel schedule?

出差补贴怎么算？

What's your itinerary per diem?

一切都很到位。

Okay.

队里有专职理疗师，有医疗人员随时待命，还有整个团队在支持你。

You got a sports physio, you know, you know, med person on on-site and the students.

你懂的。

You know?

你在这儿有支持。

You got hey.

我们还给你免费提供跑鞋。

We're paying you got free shoes coming here.

你还能拿到免费的运动装备。

You got free clothing here.

这儿的教练水平很高。

You got good coaching here.

你的训练日程安排得清清楚楚，赛程都定好了，哪些比赛最重要，我们都会围绕这些比赛帮你系统训练。

You have a nice neat setup of a calendar, a racing calendar, and this is the races that we're all gonna say are the most important and train you in PQ for.

但一旦毕业成为职业长跑选手，

And then you get post collegiate as a distance runner.

你就发现，

It's like, hey.

一切都得自己安排了。

You can do whatever you want.

你可以参加越野跑。

You can run cross country.

你可以跑公路赛。

You can run road.

你可以参加田径比赛。

You can run track.

如果你愿意，三周内把这三项都比一遍也没问题。

You can run all three in three weeks if you want.

你得决定好想参加哪个锦标赛。

You know, you gotta pick which championship you wanna do.

哦，对了。

Oh, hey.

你还得自己付账单，现在没有奖学金了。

You also gotta pay bills, and there's no scholarship going on.

你得自己请教练。

You gotta pay a coach.

你知道，你得找个经纪人。

You know, you gotta get an agent.

你现在得主动报名参加比赛了。

You gotta get into meets now.

以前都是教练帮我报名参赛的。

And before, coaches would get me into meets.

以前靠大学比赛就能参赛，现在你得想尽办法才能挤进起跑线。

You can get into meets because of the collegiate meet, now you gotta wiggle your way in to that start line.

现在有太多漏洞和障碍，如果没有完善的后勤支持，真的会让人感到沮丧——毕竟在大学时一切都那么简单。

You know, there's so many different loopholes, and there's so many different obstacles that they need to close you to have if they don't have the right infrastructure support, you know, for them, that it gets a little disheartening and it gets a little discouraging when it they were just so easy in college.

所以我觉得，不管是打算毕业后继续跑，还是已经毕业后在跑的人，都要明白，你的支持系统真的特别重要。

So I think too, as someone, you know, as people who are looking to run postgradually or if you are in postgradually, you know, understand that your support network is really, really critical.

比如，你怎么去一个新城市？

Like, how do you go into a new city?

也许你去某个城市，是因为那里有个特别好的教练。

Like, maybe you're going to a city because there's a really good coach there.

明白吗？

Okay?

你得信任你的教练，希望这位教练能帮你搭上关系——不管你是在异地通过邮件、Skype之类的远程指导，还是在同一座城市，身边有靠谱的理疗师、运动医学专家、按摩师和整脊师。

Well, you believe in that coach, and, hopefully, that coach can help connect you in, you know, whether you're remote in a different city and coaching you via email or Skype or whatever, or if you're in the same city with a good, you know, physio and sports med person and good masseuse and a good chiropractor.

你有这个预算吗？

Know, do you have the budget for that?

你运气好，被运动品牌签下了，或者有多个收入来源、赞助商支持，能让你过得宽裕吗？

Are you blessed to be signed by shoe company or have multiple revenue streams or sponsorship that can get you blessed?

你有没有一个有影响力的好经纪人，能帮你搞定这些资源？

Do you have a good agent who has sway to get you into these needs?

你知道吗，这事儿远不止那么简单。

You know, it's so much because this is not just, hey.

你以为你跑出个2分08秒的800米，就能直接转职业了，以为一转职业就万事大吉，生活从此顺风顺水？

You're a two flat eight hundred girl, and you can go pro now, and you're tired when you're going pro, and it's all great, and, you know, life's gonna be peaches and cream.

那你猜怎么着？

Well, guess what?

可不是因为一当职业选手，全国的人都变得平平无奇了。

It's not because when you go pro, everyone's too flat in this country.

所以我不明白你为什么不能当职业选手。

So I don't why you wouldn't be pro.

说实话，这已经没什么特别的了。

You know, it's not that special anymore.

就像英语·加德纳那样。

It's like English Gardner.

对吧？

Right?

几年前，英语·加德纳可是田径界的一颗新星。

English Gardner was the darling of sprinting track and field division one a couple years ago.

现在她去哪儿了？

Like, where is English Gardner?

我好一阵子没听说她的消息了，田径杂志也没再把她捧上封面，可她当年在俄勒冈大学大三、大四那会儿，几乎每期都能看到她。

Like, I haven't heard, you know, track and field music hasn't put English Gardner on the governor of the magazine for a little while here even though she was, like, you know, on that thing like every other issue in her junior senior year of college of Oregon.

所以你看那些人，从大学到职业赛场的过渡，几乎从来都不是顺顺利利的。

So it's like, you know, you look to those types of people and very rarely do you have that smooth transition that people have from the collegiate to the pro ranks.

比如大名鼎鼎的安德鲁·韦丁，他的路就特别坎坷，还有罗比·安德鲁斯，也是同样曲折，但成就却很亮眼。

I mean, you look at big bad Andrew Weeding as an example, very jagged you know, Robbie Andrews is another example, very jagged, lot of success.

那些人呢，巅峰一过，就彻底淡出了。

And those guys were like, that was it, man.

罗比·安德鲁斯和安德鲁·韦丁，当年在赛道上你追我赶。

Robbie Andrews, Andrew Weing going at each other.

那时候，800米中距离赛场，不管是室内还是室外，都是他们俩的天下。

Like, that was the those were the guys racing in the middle distances in the 800 and call it indoor and outdoor.

现在呢，韦丁已经好几次站上奥运会的赛场了。

Now it's like, well, Weeden has made it to the Olympics several times.

你知道吧？

You know?

但安德鲁斯，到目前为止还没去过。

Andrews hasn't yet.

他正在努力调整中。

He's working on it.

你知道的，他换过好几任教练，先跟Vige，后来去了Gag，又回去了Vige。

You know, he's been bouncing he's bounced between coaches, went with Vige, went to the gag, back to Vige.

就跟Weeden当初跟Vin的情况一样。

You know, same thing as Weeden was with Vin.

现在他跟着Roland训练。

Now he's with Roland.

结果还不好说。

And, you know, the the jury's out.

对吧？

Right?

那些人都是很棒的选手，我很欣赏他们，但他们的职业道路，不像在大学时那样一飞冲天了。

Because those guys are great guys who I love, but they're not having that same, you know, kinda like cataclysmic or, you know, like volcanic ascension that they did in college.

对他们来说，这条路要曲折得多。

It's much more jagged for those guys.

现在他们正是Exactly平台上美国最知名的一些商业人才。

Now they're they're some of America's best known business talent right now on Exactly.

男性。

Men's

前几天我其实跟菲比·赖特聊过，她也有过类似的经历，从大学过渡到职业赛场时，那种更曲折的过程。

You know, I I was actually talking with Phoebe Wright the other day, who had a similar kind of experience, I think, transitioning from college to pro, that more jagged approach.

她提到一个挺好的观点：在大学里，一切都安排得明明白白，生活琐事都有人帮你打理。

And one of the good points she brought up is that when you're in college, right, it's like you said, it's all structured, you have everything taken care of.

但同时，跑步也不是你生活的全部，对吧？

But also, running isn't your sole life, right?

所以你身边有各种各样的干扰，如果处理得当，反而是好事。

So you have all these distractions around you, which if taken right, taken well, is a good thing.

很多大学生跑得特别快，有时候就是因为有社交支持——队友、教练，还有这一整套体系。

So the people run really fast in college, sometimes they run really fast because you know what, they have this social support group and their teammates and their coaches and all that stuff.

训练的时候，你一到训练场就有整个团队陪着你，不仅一起拼命练，还能一起释放压力，把训练的枯燥感排解掉。

So it's instant social support where you're going to practice and you're not only working hard, but you have this whole group to kind of let out the steam of having to grind through the training.

训练一结束，你就能把注意力转到别的事上，去上几个小时的课，处理点现实中的事情，然后再回来继续训练，对吧？

And then once training's done, well, you know what, you shift your focus, you go to class for a couple hours, you worry about your real world stuff, and then you go back to training, right?

进了职业圈后，很多运动员都觉得：天啊，我整天就专心练跑步、练力量、做各种细节，还能好好午睡、恢复状态，这日子简直完美。

When you get into the pro scene, a of athletes are like, Oh man, I'm gonna spend my day, all my day focused on doing running related stuff, and all the strength, and all the little things, and I'm going to be able to take naps and recover, and it's going to be awesome.

但他们常常忘了，一旦进了职业圈，那些社交支持系统就没了，生活中其他能让你在跑步不顺时有个依靠的东西，也跟着消失了，对吧？

What they of forget there, is that they lose that whole social structure, and that whole other meaning in their life structure of having something else to fall back on when running isn't going that well, right?

所以很多人犯了个错，把所有重心都压在追求跑步的完美表现上，却忘了自己在大学时跑得那么快，是因为有上课、有朋友、有其他社交圈在支撑着。

So I think a lot of people fall into this mistake of putting everything around this kind of running perfection model and kind of forgetting that, hey, they ran really fast in college while going to class or while having this other social group.

把所有时间都堆到跑步上，并不一定会像你想象的那样有效。

So, and just taking all that time and sticking it to running doesn't always work the way you think it is.

从身体角度来说，这或许最理想，但从心理、情绪、精神层面来看，情况就不一样了。

It might be best physically for your body, but mentally, emotionally, psychologically.

你以前在上学时那种释放压力的出口，或者那些课余的兴趣爱好，现在可能都不复存在了。

Maybe that outlet that you had in school or whatever other passion project you had during school isn't there anymore.

每天再也没法和十五二十个队友一起训练，没法靠他们让生活保持轻松、有节奏。

And you don't have those fifteen, twenty other teammates every day to practice to kind of keep things light and going.

现在可能就只剩下你和教练在跑道上，或者你和另外三个一起训练的运动员。

Now it's maybe just you and your coach at the track or you and a group of three other athletes who you might train with.

我觉得这是个非常关键的因素。

I think that's a huge component.

我见过不少顶尖运动员没能顺利过渡，因为他们把所有精力都放在追求完美上，这固然值得敬佩，却忘了自己曾经拥有的那个出口已经不复存在。

I've seen really good athletes fail to make that transition because they wrap themselves around doing everything right, which is admirable, but they forget that they had this outlet that is no longer there.

没错。

Exactly.

同时，这种说法很快就会变得老生常谈。

And at the same time, yeah, it gets real trite real quick.

我的意思是，你到底能做多少这种辅助训练呢？

I mean, it just you're like, how much little auxiliary work can you do?

这些拉伸动作或者专项练习，到底要练到什么地步？

Or these little stretches or drills?

到了这个层次，这些东西很容易让人陷入执念。

You know, become can become a neurosis at that level?

我觉得，我见过的最聪明的做法之一，就是职业运动员用的一种方式。

I mean, one of the most intelligent things or intelligent, I guess, mechanisms I've seen, like, a pro athlete.

他就是尼克·西蒙斯。

He does actually Nick Simmons.

你知道，尼克·西蒙斯，大家都清楚，他特别喜欢钓鱼。

You know, Nick Simmons, everyone knows you know, he likes to go fishing.

这家伙有时候就干脆去钓一天鱼，不跑步、不训练，彻底放松，专心钓鱼。

That guy would just he'll just go fishing for a day and not run and not train and totally just check out and fish.

我们其实也从肯尼亚运动员的训练方式中学到了类似的东西——他们跑步、吃饭、睡觉、闲聊，然后接着再跑。

And, you know, you see that too kinda with what we've tried to adapt from the Kenyan lifestyle of their training camps where they run, they eat, they sleep, they hang out, and then they go run again.

他们才是真正懂得休息的艺术。

Well, they're actually masters at idleness.

对吧？

Right?

你想想，在美国，我们总以为周末就该是放松的时间。

When you think about this, in America, we your weekend is supposed to be okay.

嘿。

Hey.

我能够好好休息、恢复精力。

I get to rejuvenate or regenerate.

但你的周末，跟工作日一样，排得满满当当。

But what you do, your weekend's just as scheduled as your, you know, your work week.

你想想，通常都是这样：

You have, you know it's typically like, okay.

孩子这时候要去踢足球，或者要跟人吃午饭，或者这时候去看电影。

The kids have soccer at this time, or you're meeting this person for lunch, or you're going to the movies at this time.

天哪，我们快迟到了，晚餐预约的时间马上就到了。

And, oh my god, you know, we're late for our dinner, you know, date at this at this our reservation at this time.

对吧？

Right?

你根本不会闲坐着，完全忘了时间，因为你根本不在乎。

And it's not like you're just sitting there with you lose track of what time it is because you don't care.

你懂的。

You know?

你不会想，天啊。

You're not like, oh, man.

会不会老想着，快到中午了，我还有个电话会议？

Is it how close are we to noon because I have a conference call?

或者，我要抓紧时间处理工作，发几封邮件，或者赶赶学习之类的。

Or, oh, I'm gonna catch up on work, and I'm gonna, you know, send emails, or I'm gonna catch up on my studies or whatever.

对吧？

Right?

就像肯尼亚那种闲散状态，比如西蒙斯出去钓鱼，啥事都没有，你反而真能放松下来，恢复精力——就像大学时打几个小时《光环》或者别的游戏，跟朋友瞎玩，那种纯粹的放松时间，特别管用。

Like, that that's the value of that Kenyan idleness where, like, you know, Simmons going out and fishing is there's nothing going on, and you actually really do get a rejuvenate and recuperate just as you do when you're hanging out in college playing, you know, you know, Halo or whatever video game for a couple hours, just hang with the twos playing video games, and that has us place some time to rejuvenate.

或者，你出去跟团队一起做饭，接下来三个小时没人操心接下来该干嘛。

Or, you know, if you're going out and you're just having cooking dinner with your team, no one's really worried for the next three hours when we're to do something.

大家就专心一起做饭，开开心心的。

We're just cooking the meal as a group and having fun.

所以我觉得，有时候我也看到媒体里那些人，明明发誓要真诚面对一切。

So I think sometimes too, I've seen know, people in the media book just, know, make that vow of sincerity.

事无巨细都力求完美，结果却适得其反，反而越跑越慢。

Do everything, the big to the little things right, but then it blows up in their face, and they start running slowly.

在大学时，你可能会想：训练更刻苦了、睡得更多了、饮食更健康了、恢复更到位了、按摩更频繁了、教练更专业了，方方面面都提升了，可为什么还是慢了两秒？怎么还是觉得冷？

And in college, you're like, well, doing better workouts, getting more sleep, better nutrition, better recovery, more massage, better coaching, better this, better that, but yet I'm running two seconds fasting or two seconds slowly, I'm getting cold.

这是为什么？

Why?

到底为什么？

Why?

原因到底在哪？

Why?

这种无力感就这样不断循环下去。

And then it perpetuates this feeling of frustration.

你根本没真正放松下来。

You're not checking out enough.