Episode #65-Interview with Lauren Fleshman On Coaching

我明白。

I know.

她就是这么说的。

That's what she said.

让我觉得被关心，这感觉很好。

Made me feel cared for, which was nice.

但可能不是每个运动员都这样。

But maybe not every athlete is like that.

哦，对，再说一遍，我觉得这取决于我们如何应对那些焦虑和压力。

Oh, well, yeah, again, I think it's how we deal cope with those anxiety and stressors.

你说得对，关键不在于减量，而是减量的方式。

Because you're right, it's the not tapering, tapering approach.

每年到了这个时候，对我来说总是这样，你肯定也有过类似经历，能不能稍微展开说说？

Every year, that's always to me, right, you know, you've experienced this, maybe you can unpack this a bit here.

一到美国锦标赛或者世锦赛，每个人表面上都像冷酷的杀手，实际上却像走在蛋壳上一样小心翼翼。

You go into the USA meet or a world championship meet, and everyone's, you know, stone cold killer walking along eggshells simultaneously.

这场比赛太重要了，付出的所有努力和准备都押在这一刻，当然得把这机会发挥到极致。

There's just so much at stake, gets so much on the line because there's been all this work in preparation and diligence on the part of athlete and coach for this moment, and you want to maximize the moment.

作为运动员，你拿过全国冠军，也参加过国际大赛，现在带新人备战重大赛事时，这些经历是怎么影响你帮他们把握关键时刻的？

How has your experience as an athlete and winning national titles and competing to high reputed at the international stage colored now coming into those championship meets and preparing those who you guide for that moment and making the most of that moment?

我尽量让气氛轻松点，因为说实话，最容易搞砸的就是这种时刻。

I try to do I try to diffuse the moment more than anything else because I feel like you have way more chance of screwing that up than than anything else.

当运动员的时候，我就只专注做好自己能做的事，别的都不想。

Basically, as an athlete, if I just focused on executing, just doing what I was capable of doing, and that was it.

然后我脸上带着一点狡黠的笑，心里清楚，这场比赛里能真正发挥出水平的，可能就五六个人，其他人早被自己搞崩了。

And then having this sly smile on my face knowing that only five people in that race or so would actually be able to do that on the day because there'd be at least three of them psyching themselves out.

至少有三个人在拼命想突破极限，想在那天跑出职业生涯最佳成绩——这种压力太大了。

There'd be three of them overreaching, trying to do something miraculous they've never done before, like, quote, peaking and doing you know, having the best performance of their life on that day, which is a ton of pressure.

还有人带伤上场，看起来在热身区状态不错，其实身体已经撑不住了。

There'd be somebody running injured, at least one person who would look strong, you know, in the call area, but they were actually broken.

还有人心理上快被压垮了。

Someone would be mentally tortured.

所以归根结底，真正竞争的就五个人。

And so it really comes down to just five people.

所以我一直告诉自己，我是在和五个人比，我只需要在那天把能做的做到极致就行——这正是每次训练、每次技术课的目标：准时到场，完成教练布置的任务，尽最大努力，然后走人。

And so I always told myself, I'm racing five people, and I really just need to execute what I'm capable of on the day, which is what every single workout, every cue session was, was show up, get get your job from your coach, get it done as close to your capacity as possible, and then leave.

比赛也是一样。

And and race is no different.

就连赛前准备，我回想自己当年赛前的状态，现在给运动员安排关键训练时，也是用同样的思路。

And even the the preparation, I mean, I think about my I think about race days, preparation for the race day, logically, my athletes, it's the same way I do their key sessions now.

这样一来，我就不用操心那么多事了。

It it takes the prep off of me.

很好。

Great.

他们通常周六练高强度，周日跑长距离，到周二就能恢复好，状态又回来了。

It's like, oh, they need typically, they do a hard session on a Saturday, a long one on a Sunday, and they're ready to go again by Tuesday.

所以我根本不用花两周时间，去一点点打磨他们的状态。

So I don't have to think about, like, two weeks of, you know, buffing them out.

所以我也说不准。

And so I I don't know.

我就是希望告诉运动员们，上场前别想太多，只要带着自己觉得能搞定的准备去就行，我从不给他们灌鸡汤。

I I guess I just focus on trying to con convey that to my athlete that they can just go to the line with as little as possible with something that feels they feel confident they can achieve, and I don't blow any smoke up their ass.

我特别反对那种‘相信自己’的废话，因为我觉得在比赛前老说这个，其实是最具破坏性的。

I'm a huge advocate for getting rid of this believe in yourself shit because I find it to be one of the most destructive things when you're going into a race to be like, you just gotta believe in yourself.

你非得相信自己，尤其是当你要做一件从来没做过的事的时候。

You just gotta believe in yourself, especially if you're talking about in the context of doing something they've never done before.

这会给运动员带来太大压力，好像成败全靠一个虚无缥缈的‘相信自己’。

Because it it really puts too much pressure on them that somehow it is their success or failure just on this amorphous idea of believing in yourself.

你懂的。

You know?

在我看来，这纯粹是教练偷懒。

And to me, that's a coach cop out.

就是说嘛。

It's like, okay.

你 basically 就把责任全丢给运动员了，说：我该做的都做了。

You're you're basically you just handed that over to the athlete and said, like, well, I did everything I could do.

要是没发挥好，那就是你不够自信。

If you if you blow it, it's because you didn't believe in yourself.

是的。

And yeah.

我也说不准。

So I don't know.

说实话，我没有那种亮眼的履历，比如我带过的运动员拿过五次奥运资格什么的。

I mean, it I feel like I I'm not I don't have some kind of resume where you can say, oh, well, her athletes have made five Olympic teams and whatever.

我带的运动员都在关键时刻表现稳定，发挥出了应有水平。

I have the athletes that I've coached had reasonable success with them doing well when it counts, racing to potential when it counts.

对。

And Mhmm.

这也就是我最看重的了。

That's all I can really ask for.

我觉得有时候，作为观众，我们看到一些看似重大突破或奇迹的时刻，其实并不是奇迹。

And I think that sometimes as fans, when we're watching something we think looks like a huge breakthrough in a miracle, it wasn't.

那只是运动员自己早已准备好去实现的事情。

It was just the realization of what the person was prepared to do.

所以我知道这一点，就不会试图在我的运动员身上制造什么奇迹。

So I knowing that, I don't try to create miracles in my athletes.

我经常遇到一个问题，不管作为运动员和教练我们准备得有多充分，比赛焦虑总是躲不掉。

Then, know, something I always encounter, whether I feel like we're well prepared or not as athlete and coach, is racing anxiety.

我想知道，你在带运动员的过程中，有没有遇到过那种严重到影响发挥的比赛焦虑？

And, you know, I'm curious, have you encountered racing anxiety to the point of crippling racing anxiety in athletes you've worked with?

如果有，你都用过哪些具体的办法或对话来帮他们缓解这种焦虑？不管是当时立刻应对，还是事后发现这是个长期障碍，你都怎么帮他们调整，避免一再重复，最终影响他们在比赛日发挥出真实水平？

If so, what are some specific, you know, cues or conversations you've had to help diffuse that anxiety, either in the moment or once you recognize that's a limiting factor, you know, getting them ready so it's not repeated again and again and again to the point where it's not allowing them to manifest their potential on race day.

当然有。

Oh, yeah.

我学到的一点是，每个运动员都会遇到这种情况，至少每个赛季都会有一次，他们想得太多，结果那天没能发挥出应有的水平。

I think that there's one thing I've learned is that it's going to happen to every athlete, and it might happen at least once a season, where they're gonna get too much in their head and they won't perform to their capacity on the day.

我用的最主要的方法，效果不错，而且一般不会重复发生，就是把它当成普通事情处理，就像战术失误，或者赛前吃了新食物拉肚子一样。

The biggest approach that I take that I think works, because it doesn't seem to repeat itself more than one time, is I just treat it like like anything else, like a poor tactical move or like they ate some new food the night before and and got the runs and race day.

好吧。

I was like, okay.

你只是做了一件事，没达到预期效果，别把它搞得特别严重。

You just you you did something that didn't get you the result you wanted, and not make it some sort of big deal.

没错。

Right.

再说了，就算这事发生在脑子里，也不代表非得把它神化不可。

Or, you know, just because it's in the mind doesn't mean we have to make it this mythical thing.

这其实是

It's Am am

我明白你的意思，不好意思打断一下。

I understanding you right to sorry to interrupt.

我理解得对吗？你是把它看作一件很平常的事？

Am I am right to say it's you view it as just more transactional?

这就是所谓的交易吗？

Is this the transaction?

比如说，别纠结了。

Like, hey.

放下它。

Drop this.

继续往前走。

Move on.

别把它当回事，是这个意思吗？

No big Is that correct?

如果是心理上的问题，就别再给它额外加码了。

I just just say don't add an extra weight to it if it was a mental thing.

作为运动员，我有过这样的经历：当问题出在心理上时，教练反而把它放大了，而不是当成普通的身体状况来处理。

And I think that as an athlete experienced I had negative experiences from, a coach kinda making it a bigger deal when it was a mental thing versus a physical thing.

对。

Mhmm.

如果是身体上的问题拖了后腿，大家就会很直接地说：好吧，你哪里没做好。

If it had been a physical thing that had held me back, it would have been approached as a, you know, okay.

你贴线太久了，结果被卡住了，下次就该这么做。

Well, you you stayed on the rail too long and you got boxed in, so next time do this.

那就会是个很轻松的对话。

It would have been the you know, an easy conversation.

说完就完了。

It'd be over.

对。

Yeah.

很简单的事。

Easy thing.

可突然间，大家就说：哎呀，这事儿玄乎，全是心理作用，搞得我头都大了。

It was suddenly like, oh, you know, it's woo woo, and the things are in your head, and it's like I'd be like, oh my god.

结果就变成了一件天大的事。

And then it becomes this really big deal.

当运动员连续多次这么做时，我就花了整整一年，也就是2006年全年。

And then the more times in a row an athlete does that because I spent a whole year, all of 2006.

每次比赛我都忍不住流泪。

I had tears for races.

我讨厌比赛了。

I hated racing.

曾经我那么热爱的事，突然间变成了折磨。

Something that I'd previously loved was just torture for me all of a sudden.

我不知道该怎么重新找回比赛的感觉，这让我特别沮丧。

I couldn't figure out how to get racing back for myself, and it was really frustrating.

于是，我最终开始找运动心理学家帮忙。

And so, eventually, I started working with sports psychologist.

我用在运动员身上的很多方法，其实都是从运动心理学家那里学来的。我把心理上的问题，就像对待跟腱受伤、肌肉拉伤或者战术失误一样来处理。

So a lot of the things that I use on my athletes are things that I learned from sports psychologist was I treat I treat mental shortcomings like like an Achilles injury or some they're, you know, pulled muscle or whatever, a tactical error.

我们直接面对问题，想想下次可以试哪些办法，然后继续往前走。

And we just we address it, come up with a few things to try next time, and we move on.

但一旦你和运动员走得足够深，想要帮他们走出来，就需要额外付出更多努力。

But once you've gotten really far down the path with an athlete, it does take some extra investment to help pull them out.

所以，如果你正在听这段话，并且身边有运动员长期受赛前焦虑困扰，我建议你大幅降低对他们的期待。

And so what I recommend if you if anyone listening to this has an athlete that's had a history of really struggling with pre race anxiety is to dramatically reduce the expectations.

就当他们刚从应力性骨折中恢复，重新起步一样，一步步来，慢慢重建信心。

So treat it like they have just come off of a stress fracture, and you're just starting them back, and create baby steps to start building confidence again.

当运动员真正相信自己，能够说到做到，每次完成承诺的事，就像垒起一块信心的砖。

And once an athlete believes in in that they will race with integrity, that they will are capable of doing the thing they say they're gonna do, every time they do the thing they say they're gonna do, it's like a it builds a brick of confidence.

慢慢地，他们会越来越敢挑战自己，敢于设定更高、更远的目标。

And then they're then they feel comfortable taking bigger and bigger leaps to what they think they can do and what they're willing to say they're going to do.

但运动员一旦陷入严重心理障碍，往往会想拼命弥补，比如下次一定要发挥出全部实力。

But the problem athletes get into, once they get a big mental block, is they try to overcompensate and make up for it by like, well, next time I'm gonna really do what I'm capable of.

没错。

Right.

你明白的。

You know?

我把这叫作赛后自怜大会。

I call that the post race pity party.

对。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

这太残酷了。

It's brutal.

我之前合作过一位运动心理学家，叫达伦·特雷瑟，虽然现在不跟他干了，但他说过，当期望和现实对不上时，就会搞得一团糟。

And so it's it and then if you're the one of the takeaways from the sports psychologist I worked with, Darren Treasure, who I don't work anymore, but he he said when expectations don't equal reality, you get, like, a big mess.

所以作为教练，我觉得我的主要任务之一，就是尽量让期望贴近现实。

And so as a coach, I just look at one of my main jobs is to make sure that expectations as closely match reality as possible.

如果有个运动员告诉我，他之前跑过9分50秒，现在想跑9分25秒，那我就明白了。

And if I have an athlete tell me, I I've run nine fifty and I wanna run nine twenty five, I've learned my lesson now.

只要他们这么说，我就会说：听好了。

Like, if they say that, I'm like, look.

我可不是那种打压你梦想的人。

I'm not be someone that, like, poops on your dream.

我真心觉得，咱们先试试更务实的方法。

I really feel that we should try for the, you know, mindful ways first.

没错。

Right.

咱们先迈出这一步，等把这件事落实了，再往后看。

Let's let's just take this first step, and we'll go with once we've checked that box, let's go from there.

你可以把那个远大的目标放在那儿，但我现在不跟你谈那个。

So put that stretch goal out there, but I'm not focused on that stretch goal with you.

我现在只想专注这个目标，这观点可能有点争议。

Right now, I'm gonna focus on this goal, which is another controversial thing.

确实有人持不同看法，我能理解他们的立场。

There's definitely people out there, and I understand the perspective.

我觉得咱们得先把那些事彻底想清楚。

I think you should, you know, let that completely dry us on those things.

但我自己也经历过，从五公里跑进15分钟，到想跟埃塞俄比亚顶尖选手同场竞技，这个跃升真的很难。

But I also have learned from personal experience when I tried to make the leap from just cracking 15 in the five k to being able to race with the top Ethiopians.

那时候的世界纪录是14分20秒左右。

The world record at the time was in the fourteen twenties.

在我理想化的想法里，这其实也没那么了不起。

In my ideological mind, it's not that big of a deal.

你知道的。

You know?

我跑过15分30秒，也跑过15分整，其实感觉差不多。

I ran fifteen thirty and I ran 15 flats the same.

对。

Yeah.

那时候我跟特伦斯·莫汉一起训练，他当时的方式比较……但这不是在评价他作为教练对别人或现在的水平。

And I was working with Terence Mohan at the time, and he was fairly And so this is not a reflection on what kind of a coach he is for other people or or what kind of a coach he is now.

但那时候的情况确实不太合适，因为我太理想主义，总想一步到位。

But at the time, it was a it was a bad combination because I was very idealistic and wanted to jump ahead.

他就说，是啊。

And he was like, yeah.

你今年就能做到。

You can do that this year.

我也说，是啊。

And I was like, yeah.

因为我就想听这话。

Because that's what I wanted to hear.

没错。

Right.

这直接让我接下来一整年都害怕参赛，心里老是紧张不安。

And that really set me up for the whole next year of being horrified to race and, you know, the anxiety and stuff.

所以在精英层面，就像我们的工作一样——我不确定你们有没有同感，但我们的任务其实是得把运动员拉回来，别让他们太冒进，别自己绊自己。

So a lot of times at the elite level, like our job, I don't know if you guys feel the same way, but our job is to almost hold athletes back from, you know, getting too ambitious on that side or getting in their own way.

所以我很好奇，劳伦，你是怎么处理这种情况的？

So I'm curious, Lauren, how do you handle that situation?

当一个运动员来找你，说‘我五公里跑出了15分45秒，但我真觉得今年我能跑进15分钟’，你怎么应对？

How do you handle an athlete who comes to you and says like, hey, I've run fifteen forty five in the five k, but I really think I can run 15 flat this year.

天哪。

Oh, man.

是的。

Yeah.

说实话，我以前确实处理得不对，我现在就坦白出来。

I mean, I basically and just I've done this wrong just so I get that out there right now.

我想让大家知道，我以前确实犯过这错误。

I want people to know that I've done this wrong.

我们都犯过类似的错。

As we all have.

喂。

Hey.

这正是这个教练播客要聊的内容。

That's what this coaching podcast is.

我们和史蒂夫犯过的所有错误。

All the mistakes mistakes Steve Steve and and I I made.

你听一听，就能避开我们当初那么严重的失误。

Made, Now you listen so you don't have to make them quite as bad as we could.

对。

Yeah.

几年前我带运动员劳伦斯的时候也这么干过，她想实现巨大突破。

It was it's it just I did this with my athlete, Lawrence, a couple years ago, and she wanted to make a big leap.

不出所料，那正好是奥运年。

Not surprisingly, it was an Olympic year.

通常到了这个时候，你会看到最多的运动员说：好吧。

It's that's when you see the most athletes going, okay.

要想进奥运队，就得下这么大功夫。

It's gonna take this to make the Olympic team.

既然要干，那就拼到底。

If I'm gonna do this, then I'm really gonna do it.

如果我不是真心想进队伍，那这么做还有什么意义呢？

And if I'm not really doing it with the intention of making the team, then then what's what's the point?

我只不过是在装样子罢了，所以我要说清楚，这些都是我的个人看法。

I'm just some kind of poser out here, so I'm gonna and I'm you know, obviously, this is all my commentary.

但我在俄勒冈田径精英队的时候，这种情形见过太多了。

But this I've seen this countless times when I was on Oregon Track Club Elite.

那些还没能入选队伍的运动员，常常觉得：要进队伍就得这么拼，现在就必须下狠功夫。

That that athlete that's not quite making teams yet so often is like, this is what's gonna take to make the team, and I have to do it now.

他们还把一切附加在‘只有进队伍，我的努力才有价值’这种想法上。

And they wrap it up in all this other stuff of, like, what I'm doing doesn't matter unless I'm making teams.

我觉得，很多人误以为只要做到这些，就一定能进队伍。

And I think there's this big myth that if you do all that, that's what it takes to make a team.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Definitely.

也许对某些人来说这种方式有效。

And maybe that works for some people.

我肯定听说过不少成功的例子。

I'm sure there's success stories out there.

但我更常看到的是彻底崩溃，往往导致受伤，运动员甚至没机会健康地站上起跑线。

But what I've seen more often is a total implosion, most often leading to injury so the athlete never even gets to get to the starting line healthy.

如果运动员因为天赋异禀、身体特别耐扛，真的健康地站上了起跑线，那比赛反而会变得压力山大。

And if the athlete gets to the starting line healthy because they're gifted with incredible durability, then it leads to the race having so much date.

要在这种环境下坚持到起跑线，需要一种特别的思维方式。

It takes a really special kind of brain to get to the line in that environment.

我认识的人里，能想到的只有伊恩·多布森。

I can only think of from people I know, Ian Dobson.

他告诉我，2018年入选时，他对自己说：‘我要是进不了这个队，就干脆死了算了。’

When he told me when he made the 2018, he said told himself, well, I have to make this team or I'm going to die, basically.

确实如此。

And Yeah.

他把所有一切都押上了，结果真成功了，入选了队伍。

Wrapped everything into it, and it worked, and he made the team.

对。

Yeah.

但更多时候

But more often

运动员们用的都是同样的心态。

than not employed the same same mentality.

他说，我要是进不了队，就回去挖煤。

He said, I got into the team, or I'm gonna go back to wherever and go work in a coal mine.

你懂的。

You know?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以这种方式对某些人是有效的

So And that that works for some

我同意你的看法。

I agree with you.

在我眼里，这有点太军事化了。

It's a little too, like, militaristic in my mind.

归根结底，就是跑步而已。

At the end the day, is just running.

这不过是一项运动罢了。

It is just sport.

你懂我的意思吧？

Know what I mean?

是的，确实如此。

Yeah, it is.

而且这很可能取决于你是否真能相信这一点。

And it probably depends on your capacity to really believe that.

你可以说这些话，但如果你心里根本没真信，就不可能激发出那种老太太为救孩子掀翻汽车的激素反应。

Because you can say those words, if you don't really if you haven't really gotten yourself to believe it, you're not gonna, elicit the hormonal response of the old lady who can lift the car because someone's trapped under it.

对吧？

Right?

你就是在这种时候想达到这种效果。

You're that's what you're trying to do in those situations.

如果你用背水一战的心态给自己打气，就是指望能触发那种老太太掀车的爆发状态。

If you're trying to psych yourself up for the race with, like, a do or die mentality, you're hoping to get the old lady who can lift the car scenario.

觉得在比赛里，自己能做出超常的表现。

And that your race, you're gonna be able to do something extraordinary.

但我对生理机制不太了解。

But I don't know the physiology.

史蒂夫，你们俩有没有人懂这方面的生理机制？但说实话，很多时候这种心态反而会引发一种适得其反的激素反应，让你跑不到终点，或者表现不如预期。

And, Steve, maybe maybe either of you knows this physiology, but I add more often than not, it triggers a hormonal response that doesn't get you to the finish line or an underperformance kind of a situation.

是的。

Yeah.

不，确实会。

No, it definitely does.

这太有意思了。

It's so interesting.

压力反应是个复杂又奇妙的现象。

The stress response is such a complicated and fascinating phenomenon.

人们以为，只要肾上腺素一飙升，睾酮一上来，就能把车抬起来。

People think like, Oh, if I just get some adrenaline going and then some testosterone comes and then like I'm going to be able to lift that car.

但他们忘了，身心的智慧远超你的想象，对吧？

And what they're forgetting is like the mind and the body is smarter than you think you are, right?

它清楚得很，要是不这么做，车底的孩子就活不了。

It knows like, Hey, if I don't do this, this kid under the car is going to die.

但要骗自己相信‘嘿’，这实在太难了。

But it's incredibly tough to trick your mind into thinking like, hey.

要是这场比赛我跑不好，我的世界就完了。

If I don't do this race, like, my world is gonna end.

你的大脑其实明白，嘿。

Your mind knows, like, hey.

这并不是真的。

This isn't reality.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Exactly.

那个女人在车子压到孩子之前，根本没想别的，就只是在想路边的植物长什么样。

And in the instance of the woman with the car, she wasn't even she was just thinking about, like, what the local foliage looked like Exactly.

就在车子压到孩子之前。

Before the car landed on the kid.

没错。

Exactly.

这完全是两回事。

It's not it's different.

但运动员要是想模拟这种情况，得花上几天、几周甚至几个月的时间。

Whereas an athlete, if they're trying to do this, we're talking days, weeks, months on end Yeah.

反复想象车子压到孩子的场景。

Of creating this scenario of a of the car on a kid.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Yeah.

我觉得这是对生理真实反应的曲解，本质上其实是休克。

I think it's a bastardization of what's really going on physiologically, and that's shock.

那位女士是处于休克状态。

That woman is shocked.

我们知道，休克时涌出的不是少量激素，而是一股洪流，瞬间冲进脊髓，席卷全身。

And we know in shock that a flood, not just a trickle, a flood of hormones instantaneously goes into your spinal cord and flushes your whole body.

休克的持续时间取决于严重程度，可能是几秒、几分钟，甚至几小时。

So shock can last for, depending on the severity of it, seconds or even minutes or even hours.

我认识一些运动员，在跨栏时脚骨折了。

I've known athletes who broke their foot on a steeplechase barrier.

我就跟他们说，没事的。

I'm like, coach, it's fine.

我感觉挺好的。

I feel fine.

没什么大不了的。

It's not a problem.

可我接着说，兄弟，你的脚方向不对啊。

And I'm like, dude, your foot is the wrong way.

脚已经断了。

It is broken.

然后他们低头一看，其实冲击反应早就悄悄开始了，因为他们根本没看自己的脚。

And then they look down at it, and the shock's already going subconsciously because they didn't look on it.

等他们看到脚歪成那样，才开始大喊大叫。

Then they start screaming once they see the foot at the wrong angle.

但脚那时候已经那样了，对吧？

But the foot was already like that, right?

就是因为那种冲击。

Because of that shock.

身体本来就自然地保持了那个姿势。

The body just naturally had it in place.

所以，当你大脑前额叶意识到这一点，突然明白‘原来脚断了’的时候，已经晚了。

So, cognitively, once your executive functioning capacity happens in your frontal lobe to make that connection, Oh, I guess it is broken.

这时候再反应就来不及了。

It's too late.

是啊。

Yeah.

如果有人真想深入了解这背后的科学原理，亚历克斯·哈钦森写过一本特别棒的书，叫《极限》，听说下下周就要出版了。

And for anyone who really wants to understand the science of this, Alex Hutchinson wrote a fantastic book called Endure that is actually, I think it's out next week or the week after.

马上就要推出了，对。

Coming up, yeah.

而且他把这类情况讲得特别清楚，人人都能懂。

And explains these exact scenarios phenomenally for everyone to understand.

强烈推荐你找来看看。

So really suggest picking that up.

是的，我还没看完。

Yeah, I didn't get to finish it.

那时候我刚生了孩子，但他寄了我一本预印本，我大概读了一半，真的受益匪浅。

I was having a newborn, but he sent me an early copy to And read I was I got through about half of it so far, and it was really illuminating.

我在指导中也用上了书里的很多内容，这建议真不错。

Like, I definitely have taken things into my coaching from that too, so that was a good suggestion.

我们刚才跑题了，现在拉回来继续。

Veering back on track after we've gone, you know, on the off ramp here.

我想聊聊你跟罗兰共事时的收获，你从他身上学到的最重要的东西是什么？

I love Oh, the talk more about what you learned, you know, working with Roland, like one of your biggest takeaways from him.

你已经提到过你对训练体系的敬重，但我想知道，作为一个人，马克给你留下了什么印象？还有他在OTC营造的环境，对你现在的做法有什么影响？

You kind of have already expounded the respect and weight you have for the training program, but what about with Mark as the person and also through the environment he created or had created at OTC in your time there and any transfers you've had to your current practice?

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

我学到的一些东西，是通过观察他指导学员得来的。那时候我已经够成熟了，也经历过不少教练，所以能更主动地去思考他的教学方式，而不是只机械地完成任务。

I mean, part of the lessons I learned, came from watching him coach, which I was then old enough and had been through enough coaches to be able to to watch him coach and to think the coaching a little bit more versus just going along, going along and just checking boxes.

我天生就爱好奇，所以在接受他指导的同时，也在研究他怎么教，以及他的方法给我带来了哪些改变。

And I'm a naturally curious person, so I was studying as I was being coached by him, but also just the changes that I went through as a result of the way he coached.

到那时候，我已经有了很好的自我认知。

And I had very good self awareness by this point.

我当时28岁，你知道的。

You know, I've been I was, 28.

对吧？

Right?

人到二十八九、三十出头，正是自我认知和视角快速成熟的时候。

So that's kind of a natural time window of your life, late twenties, early thirties when you develop a a lot more of your self awareness and perspective and whatnot.

他当我的教练时，我正好处在这种状态，这真是再合适不过了。

So I was doing that while he was my coach, which was which was a good combination.

他真的把运动员当成人来对待，这是我从中收获最大的一点。

He really treated his athletes like adults, so that was one of the biggest things I took away from it.

他的想法是，如果你需要被哄着，那我是不会给你这种待遇的。

He kinda had the perspective of if you need babying, you're just not gonna get it from me.

抱歉。

I'm sorry.

你可能得花两年时间跑得一塌糊涂，才能学会怎么做个成年人，如果真这样，我宁愿当个不称职的教练。

Like, you might run like shit for two years while you figure out how to be a grown up, and I'm willing to look bad as a coach if that's happening.

是的。

Mhmm.

在他看来——我不是说这一定对或错——你得对自己的运动生涯、对自己的梦想负起责任。

Because in his mind, and I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but in his mind, you needed to have ownership of your own athletic career, ownership of your own dreams.

你不能等着别人告诉你，你到底有多大的潜力，才去努力实现它。

You aren't waiting for someone to tell you what you were capable of in order to reach your your just in eventual potential.

他不愿意牵着你的手，帮你补漏洞来换取短期的成绩。

And he wasn't willing to hold your hand and fill in the gaps for you to get short term results.

他说，只要我带你们，就会逼你们发挥出最大的潜力，这期间可能一两年你们都会很挣扎，但这是必须经历的过程。

He was like, if I'm coaching you, I'm pushing you to your ultimate potential, and this is just the unfortunate thing that's gonna have to happen for a year or two while you figure it out.

所以有些运动员离开了，或者根本没撑下去。

And so some athletes left, you know, or it didn't work.

他并不是适合所有人的教练。

So he's not the coach for everybody.

但我从中学到的一点是，我也不想当所有人的教练。

But one of the things I took from that was I don't wanna be the coach for everybody.

我觉得教练不只是帮人挖掘运动潜能，更要引导他们成长为能将这段经历转化为未来力量的人——无论他们以后是当教练、在工作中更出色，还是在人际关系或育儿中更成熟，都要能把在运动中培养出的自我认知和内在成长带到生活中去。

Like, I I view coaching as partly helping someone realize their athletic potential, also helping shepherd them as into adults and people who will be able to take as much from the years they've spent with me into the future, whether that's to coach or to be more effective in place or in their relationships or parenting, like, to take that self awareness and and and things that they've developed in themselves that sport was the vehicle for and take it take it to their life.

所以，我坚信，要真正实现这一点，就必须把人当成人来带，而不是当孩子来哄。

And so, yeah, I'm a firm believer that the the only way to to really follow through with that is to coach people to be adults.

对。

Mhmm.

有些人来训练时，本身就已经很成熟了。

And so some people come in to be coached, they already are pretty much adults.

还有一些人，需要一点严厉的督促或者推一把，才能走到那一步。

And then some people, they need a little bit of of tough love or nudging or whatever to get there.

比如我现在带的运动员劳伦，就是个例子。

And with the case of I look at, like, Lauren is the athlete I have right now.

她身体状态很好，表现也很不错。

She's healthy, and she's doing well.

我还在带她姐姐科利尔·劳伦斯。

I'm coaching her sister Collier Lawrence too.

她也是个很好的例子，是个成熟的成年人，还做过舟骨手术。

She's also a great example of an adult, who's had navicular surgery.

算起来，她术后大概五个月了。

So she's she's, I think, five months out from that right now.

所以目前她还不能进行有强度的训练或比赛。

So she's not training or racing in a significant way yet.

不过，我已经带她四年了。

Now I've worked with her for, I think, four years.

她刚来的时候，根本说不清自己有什么目标。

And when she first came in, she couldn't have told me really what her goals were.

她连临时做决定都做不到，比如我让她跑六到八次，跑完六次后我问她要不要停，她根本拿不准。要让运动员自己做这种判断，她还做不到。

She she couldn't make decisions on the fly of how you know, if I told her to do six to eight time I asked her after six, do you think you should be done or to engage athletes with those decisions?

那时候她心里还是想着怎么让教练满意，总在找方向。现在呢，她不管在全国哪儿训练，都能自己照顾自己，大多数时候也能当场做出判断了。

She wouldn't have been telling There's a big part of her still trying to please the coach or look for And so now where she could train anywhere in the country and be able to look after herself, be able to make those on the fly decision most of the time.

我觉得不是谁都能做到这一点。

And I don't think anybody can do it necessarily.

能完全靠自己训练的人，真的少之又少。

Very few people can do it all the time where you just coach yourself.

对吧？

Right?

当然有人能做到。

So there are people that can.

但这真的很难。

That's very difficult.

但确实，她的变化非常明显。

But, yeah, she's and and I I think it's it's really showing.

她的举止完全不一样了。

It's she carries herself differently.

她身上带着一种自信。

She carries herself with this confidence.

她谈论自己的目标时，就像那些目标真的属于她一样，而它们确实属于她。

She can talk about her goals as if they're hers because they are.

我觉得我的角色是她开车，我坐在旁边，帮她一路顺利到达目的地。

And I look at my job as to to that she's driving the bus, and I'm the passenger, and I'm helping her get there.

这正是我最享受的教练方式，我也越来越看到成果了——她现在享受训练，充满斗志。

And that is the way that I like to coach the most, and that's, and I I'm really starting to see the fruits of the labor in how she is enjoying herself and her ferocity.

你知道的。

You know?

没错。

I mean Right.

上了跑道，就全靠你自己了。

When you're on the track, it's all you.

没人帮得了你。

No one can help you.

对。

Mhmm.

就是你自己。

It is you.

这正是它的魅力所在。

That's the beauty.

我们训练你，就是为了让你做到这一点。

That's what that's what we're training you to do.

是的。

Yeah.

不过，这确实很难。

So, it's hard, though.

你明白吧？

You know?

我很幸运，因为我并不依赖那些要求短期成果的资金支持。

And I I am fortunate in that I'm not relying on funding dependent on short term results.

我做这件事是因为我喜欢，也关心这些孩子。

I do this because I love it, and I care about these people.

所以我能按照自己的方式来做。

And so I can do it in the way I want to.

我可以着眼于更长远的规划。

I can look I can play a longer game.

我完全清楚，这其实是一种特权，并不是每个教练都有这样的条件。

And I totally recognize that that's a privilege, and not every coach has that privilege.

对。

Mhmm.

在大学层面，这正是我不愿去大学执教的原因之一——我觉得在那些竞争最激烈的项目里，你不得不为了短期成绩而牺牲运动员的长期发展。

And in a college level, that's one of reasons I wouldn't wanna coach in college because I feel like you'd have to almost stunt the development of athletes for short term gain in the most competitive d one programs.

说实话，我曾经收到过斯坦福大学的一个面试邀请，但我根本不想去那个职位。

Like, I can't I at one point, I got offered a, interview to for a Stanford job, and I was like, I do not want that job.

我真的不想去那个职位。

I do not want that job.

这很明智。

Well, that's wise.

你脚踏实地，清楚什么才是真正重要的。

You have two feet on the ground and you know what matters.

劳伦，你把这一点说得非常好。

I think you articulated that very well, Lauren.

你能着眼于长远的发展。

You're able to play a long term game.

我觉得这正是你的独特优势。我和史蒂夫之所以能这样，是因为我们不依赖外部资金，那些资金总要求你必须在本季度或今年内证明价值，否则就不续约——这会让所有人都陷入一种匮乏的心态，对吧？

I think that's the specialty you occupy, and Steve and myself, since we're not dependent on funding from an outside bucket of money that says, You have to do this and show your worth in this quarter or in this year, otherwise we're not going to re up or reengage you and that creates a scarcity mindset, right, from everyone involved.

今天我和一位运动员聊天，跟她说：我知道你想尝试交叉训练，但你新来的这位运动员刚来就得了应力性骨折。

Here, now, I was talking to an athlete today and I told her like, Hey look, I know you're wanting to cross train, you have a new athlete and she showed up with a stress fracture.

我说了，你去见医生、拿正式诊断之前，这两天根本决定不了2020年会怎样。

I'm like, Look, two days before you go see a doctor and get the professional diagnosis, I'm not going to make or break 2020.

她问我：你在说什么呢？

She was like, What are talking about?

我说，我就是这么想的。

I go, That's what I'm thinking.

我早就在想2020年的事了。

I'm already thinking in 2020.

我在想三年之后的事。

I'm thinking three years ahead.

我没在想今年室内或室外的美国锦标赛。

I'm not thinking about the US Championships indoors or outdoors this year.

我在跟你考虑长远，因为这才是你来这儿的原因。

I'm thinking long term with you because that's why you're here.

你选择坚持做这件事，不是为了眼前的好处，而是为了长久的可持续发展。

That's why you've chosen to show up and do this not for the immediate gratification but for long term sustainability.

我觉得你说得对，很多人一看大学项目就挑毛病。史蒂夫，你还在大学体系里，或许能说清楚：为什么非得短期出成绩，得把运动员练到能参加室内和室外越野赛，还得为那些选择延期毕业的学生规划三到五年。但我们不用这么干，这其实是个很少人享有的特殊优势。

I think you're right, people look at college programs and criticize them, and maybe Steve you can articulate since you are actually still in the college space, about the short term ness that happens because you have to produce and get the athlete ready for cross indoor and outdoor and do that programming for three, four or fifth year if you do redshirt them and we don't have to which is a very special privilege seat that few occupy.

是的，从大学这边来看，这根本没法持续，你必须做出取舍。

Yeah, just speaking from the college side of things, it's completely unsustainable and you do have to make sacrifices.

如果你打算在越野、室内和室外赛事上都拼出好成绩的话。

If you choose to try to run well cross country indoors and outdoors.

我之前跟一位朋友兼教练聊天，他直接跟我说：我根本不看重室内赛。

You know I was talking to a good friend and fellow coach who basically said, told me, he was like, I don't care about indoors.

我们根本不会去追求这个。

Like, we don't go after it.

我们在休斯顿也是这样带队员，因为这根本不可能做到。

And we're kind of similar here with my guys at Houston because like it's just impossible.

从生理角度来说，全年都保持巅峰状态根本不现实。但很多项目却非得这么做，因为大家期待你室内赛拿好成绩、进全国赛，然后室外赛再复制一次，越野赛还得再拼一把。

Like, physiologically it's impossible to be sharp and ready to go all year round, but at a lot of programs like it is necessary, right, because they expect you to do well at your conference meet indoors and make nationals and then come back outdoors and do the same and then do well and cross.

所以整个体系压根不是为运动员成长设计的。

So the system itself is not set up in a way that is for athlete development.

所以，如果你遇到一个有潜力在更高水平参赛的运动员，保护他免受这套体系伤害的责任就落在了教练身上，这本身就很奇怪，也反映出大学田径体系的问题。

So if you have that athlete who might have the talent to run on the next level, it really comes on the onus of the coach to figure out ways how to protect that athlete from the system, which is a strange thing to do and kind of indicative on NCAA running in itself, I guess.

我当运动员的时候也深有体会，这造成了很多奇怪的团队氛围——有些运动员被特意保护、保留，而另一些人，明明是富兰克林决赛选手、州冠军，却得去参加山地太平洋室内锦标赛。

I remember that too as an athlete, and it created a lot of really weird team dynamics because there were the athletes who were being protected and saved, and then there were other athletes that had to show up and run Mountain Pacific indoor championships who had been footlocker finalists, who had been state champions in their own right.

但在新的等级体系里，主教练需要的是能拿分的距离跑者，而且一定要最好的。

But in the new pecking order, they were the ones that, you know, the head track and field coach needed distance runners who could get points, and they wanted the the best ones.

但他们其实可以派第二好的，或者第五好的去参赛，照样能拿分。

But they could get the second best ones, or the fifth best ones, and they go and they get those points.

可对这些运动员来说，训练和比赛中的这种安排，成了他们冲击顶尖水平的无形障碍。

But in training and for those races and competing, it it was like the barrier for those athletes ever reaching the top tier.

你明白吗？

You know?

他们就这样被卡在了中间。

It's like they got stuck there.

这正是这项运动中一个令人心痛的现实，而他们自己也心知肚明。

And that was just one of the painful realities of the sport because they knew it.

你知道吗，那些能代表男子队出战前七名的运动员，尤其是在斯坦福，那时候队里有四十多人，最后在全美锦标赛拿了24分什么的。

You know, the athletes that got to run top seven on the men's team, especially, like, what, 40 guys or something at Stanford when it when they got the 24 points at nationals or whatever.

是的。

Mhmm.

他们队里人才太多了，个个都特别强。

They had so many guys, and they were all so good.

如果你被选去参加地区赛——那时候根本没人在意，因为他们实在太强了——你就心知肚明，自己没机会上全国赛了。

And if you were the guy that got chosen to run the regional meet, which no one cared about at that point because they were so dominant, you knew you weren't gonna run nationals.

你根本没机会上场。

You weren't gonna get the shot.

这次比赛就是你的机会。

This was your shot.

你就相当于那个关键时刻上场的替补，对吧？

This would you know, you were the pinch hitter or whatever Mhmm.

就是为了保存其他队员的体力。

To save the legs of the other athletes.

所以，说实话，我也说不准。

So, yeah, I don't know.

这听起来有点奇怪，但在那些人才济济的项目里，情况就是如此。

It's strange, but it's it's it's just the way it is when in those deep programs.

这也是为什么，虽然我们现在没在专门聊大学，但我强烈建议别去那些顶尖的几所超级深的学校——除非你真的特别想往那儿去，不然你根本没机会真正成长。

And that's one of the main reasons why, you know, we're not really talking completely about college right now, but, I am a huge advocate for not going to those top few d one schools that are so deep where you're not gonna get the the true opportunity to develop, unless unless you just feel so compelled to go there.

如果你还在犹豫，我建议运动员们多看看其他选择，别局限在那几个地方。

If you're on the fence at all, I'm I would tell athletes to be open minded to more options.

是的。

Yeah.

我完全同意你的看法，劳伦。确实，那些学校教练厉害、设施好、资源丰富，但教练和运动员的比例实在有限。

I think I'm I'm right there with you, Lauren, because I think, you know, there's amazing coaches, and they have amazing facilities and amazing resources, but the coach to athlete ratio is only so, you know, so high.

我的意思是，比例其实很低。

I mean, or actually more so low.

就算他们请了一大堆教练，但还是有等级之分，你心里也清楚，能出头的终究就那么几个。

Even though they might have, you know, all these coaches in the world on staff, it's still a pecking order, and you you know, you're only gonna have so many alphas in a Yeah.

你知道，人得先学会低头，才能融入团队。

You know, cohort before someone has to be submissive.

所以你招来了一堆顶尖选手。

And so you you recruit all these alphas.

全国纪录保持者、州冠军、州纪录保持者，不管是什么头衔，反正都是顶尖的。

Or champions, national record holders, state record holders, state champions, whatever, whatever, whatever.

然后，谁该让谁、谁该听谁的，这个问题就浮现出来了。

And then the unpacking order of submission has come into play.

结果呢，那些在高中时正冉冉升起的天才，到了这儿却没了土壤，没了养分，再也长不起来了。

And what ends up happening is it suffocates that alpha who was blossoming in high school that now no longer has the soil and the fruit to do so.

他们的运动生涯就这么结束了。

And that career has come to an end.

这真不是谁的错。

And it's it's no one's fault.

我可不敢狂妄到觉得自己能亲自带二十个、三十个顶尖选手，哪怕我是专业教练也不行。

It's not like you know, I'm not I I don't have the hubris to think I can coach a cohort of, you know, twenty, thirty alphas myself even, you know, professionally.

我就在15左右徘徊，差不多就到头了，哥们。

Like, I'm hovering around 15, and that's kinda it, man.

这就是我的极限。

That's my threshold.

我最多能带得动一支越野队，也就是我常说的前七人和后七人。

I can sustain probably, you know, a cross country team, what I which I call a front seven and a back seven.

即便如此，也得有个先后顺序，毕竟这些人的生计和职业生涯都悬在你一个人身上。

And even then, there has to be pecking order as well with these men and women's livelihoods and careers on the line because you're just one person.

塔拉·韦林很明智地走了这条路。

Tara Welling astutely took that path.

她放弃了去五大联盟强校的机会，选择了LMU，也就是WCC联盟的学校。

She turned down going the, you know, power five big school route for, like, LMU, which is in the WCC.

不过，LMU的教练斯科特·格雷罗给了她全部的关注。

But, you know, her Scott our coach Scott Guerrero at LMU gave her all the attention.

他能够专心致志地、非常谨慎细致地帮她逐步增加训练量。

You know, he was able to really focus on her and very prudently and meticulously build her mileage up.

她受伤并不算多。

She didn't get hurt that much.

她常提到这一点，说正是这个让她能开启职业生涯，长期坚持下来，还能从伤病中恢复过来。

Mean, it's the thing she always points to is what propelled her to be able to have a professional career and sustain it and also be resilient and come back from these injuries.

相比之下，很多去五大联盟学校的运动员，情况就不一样了——但这并不是说教练水平差。

Versus, many times, you see that athlete who went to a power five school, and it's, again, it's not that the coaching is bad at all.

不是的。

It's not.

实际上教练水平非常高。

It's actually very, very good.

问题出在高水平竞技的高强度要求上。

It's the rigors of high level performance.

一年得参加三次联盟比赛，两次区域赛，还要三次冲击锦标赛，每次都得拼尽全力。

Having to score at conference meets three times a year, having to be ready at regional meets twice a year, and having to score at championship meets three times a year.

一年要这么多次高强度压榨，实在吃不消。

That's a lot of times a year to beat on.

你我都明白。

You and I know.

自信。

Confidence.

对。

Yeah.

自信是另一个容易被忽视的因素。我觉得，能进入一个项目后，觉得自己做得对、有价值，这种感觉往往比训练的具体细节更能决定你能走多远。

Confidence is the other thing that gets sacrificed is it's really I feel like the the ability to go to a program and feel good about what you're doing and feel like you matter probably carries you a lot further than the specifics of the training in some ways.

只要生理训练方面做到九成左右，另一面的重要性就特别突出。

As long as you get about 90% of it right on the physiological side, the other side of it is is really important.

顺便提一句，我加这段话是因为觉得有必要换个角度看问题，我相信你们也不会不同意。

Just just as an important aside, only add this because it's I think it's important to add perspective, and I know you guys wouldn't disagree with this.

那些来到斯坦福、可能在项目里被磨得有点疲惫的运动员，跑步毕竟不是人生的全部，也不是唯一重要的事。看看他们后来的发展——在课堂上、在社团里，甚至其他领域找到的新方向，虽然跑步没达到他们预期的效果，但大多数人都因此走上了一条更好的路。

But, all those athletes that came to Stanford that got kind of maybe you could argue got chewed up in that program, running obviously is not the end of the world and the only thing that matters, and seeing the things that they went on to do, the doors that opened to them in their classrooms and in the clubs and other things that they then dove into because running wasn't doing for them what they thought it would, set them on a different path, but, like, a really great path in most of those cases.

对吧？

Right?

所以我看一些运动员，觉得对他们来说，这依然是个完美的选择

So, I look at some athletes where I'm like, man, it was still the perfect choice for you

是的

Mhmm.

哪怕这并没有实现你当初当运动员的梦想，但从职业发展和人生角度来看，依然值得

As a career person and as a human being, even if it wasn't the perfect choice for the running dream that you had.

这种情况也确实存在

So that can happen too.

对

Yeah.

这真是

That's a

说得对

good point.

当然

Sure.

我有个关于教练方式的问题。

I have a question about, coaching.

不是。

No.

我是说，这个

This is this

我们现在谈的是教练方式。

is We're on coaching.

对。

Yes.

那太好了。

Well, that's great.

所以我有个关于教练的问题。

So have a question on coaching.

今年我调整了训练方式，不再像以前那样在秋冬季做长时间的耐力积累，而是更早地安排一些真正高强度的训练。

So I have gone gone through transition this year in my approach where I am doing less of a long fall build, fall and winter build, and doing more, I don't know, I guess you'd call them like legit workouts, harder workouts earlier in the season.

这对我来说还是第一次。

And it's a first for me.

过去我总是等到三月才开始。

And in in the past, I've really waited until March.

让我改变做法的原因，是比赛机会变少了。

And what changed, just so you know, what changed my approach has been, the lack of opportunities available for racing.

我吃过的亏是，如果你带的运动员不是冲着国家队去的，赛季初成绩上不去，就根本没资格参赛。

And what I learned the hard way was if you're not coaching an athlete who's making teams, if they don't run well early, then they don't get into the races.

对。

Mhmm.

连能发挥实力的比赛都进不去。

They won't even get a lane in the races that allow them to reach their potential.

这样一来，一整年他们都在拼命追赶，想达到自己的最佳状态。

Then they're in a position all year to be trying to reach their potential from the front.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的太难了。

Which is just so hard.

所以我现在

And so I've

全部

all

我以前一直特别抗拒这么做，持续了很长时间。

I had a huge bias against doing this for a really long time.

但后来回顾我的职业生涯，普罗维登斯学院的雷·特雷西就是一个例子，他总能让运动员全年保持出色状态。

But then in looking back in my career, Providence College, Ray Tracy was an example of a coach who always seemed to have athletes running really well year round.

他们在室外全国赛的成绩可能比室内全国赛快不了多少，但如果你室内能跑进50秒，谁又会说跑得没快多少是坏事呢？

They may not run that much faster out at outdoor nationals than they do at indoor nationals, but if you're running under 50 indoors, you don't like who's to say that it's a negative thing if you're not running that much faster than sub 15 Mhmm.

在室外。

Outdoors.

作为运动员，我一直很困惑，当我跟金·史密斯或莫莉·哈德尔这样的选手比赛时。

And as an athlete, that always puzzled me when I'd compete against people like Kim Smith or Molly Huddle.

我当时就想，他们怎么一年到头都这么厉害？

Was like, how are they so damn good all year long?

后来我偶然拿到了迪娜·卡斯托尔新书的提前版，发现里面有些共通的模式。

And and then I just read I got an advanced copy of Dina Castor's book, and and I saw some themes in there.

再看看杰里那支队伍，很多运动员都能在赛季初期就保持高水平发挥。

And then reading or looking at, Jerry's group and how a lot of those athletes are able to run well early and often.

对。

Mhmm.

还有像考特尼·弗里克斯这样的选手，她那次跳得简直太棒了，没错。

And fellow pike, like Courtney Frix, who has, like, this incredible jump Oh, yeah.

那是她全年表现最出色的一场比赛。

Absolute best race of the year.

但她们平时也一直保持着很好的状态。

But they're they're also running well.

像那种一年到头都状态在线的选手。

You know, someone like is running well all year.

所以，今年我正在做一些新的尝试。

So anyway, I am doing some experimenting this year.

我稍微调整了一下训练方式，不再那么依赖传统的大量基础训练加金字塔模式。

I'm nudging things a little bit and and and doing less of a big base pyramid model.

我想听听你们的看法，你们有没有类似的经验？

And I just wondered what you guys thought of that and what your experiences with that have been.

史蒂夫，你先说吗？还是我来？

Steve, you want to jump in first or you want me to go?

我来吧，没问题。

I'll jump in, sure.

我在职业赛场上的经验是，更倾向于让身体一整年都保持相当好的状态，或者至少足够好，能经常跑出好成绩。

So you know my experience on the professional side is I've moved more towards that model of being pretty dang fit for most of the year, or being fit enough to race pretty well.

回顾我退役后的训练，与其说是金字塔式的阶段划分，不如说是一种混合型的周期训练。

So if you look at our training for most of my post collegiates, it's what I'd call like a blended or mixed periodization more than like a pyramid.

不是一层层堆上去，而是各种训练内容始终都包含在内。

So instead of like building blocks on top of each other, like stuff is always included.

所以我们训练时一直跑得挺快的，有时候训练一上来就挺有强度。

So we're always running somewhat fast in practice, and sometimes like the workouts are relatively intense from the get go.

在现代职业跑步的环境下，我觉得这几乎是必须的，尤其是当你得按时达到目标的时候。

So I've in the modern world of professional running, I think it's almost a little bit of a necessity, especially if you have to hit sometimes, right?

为了保护自己不被这种高强度拖垮，我会安排一些‘恢复期’，比如我们可能在第一次斯坦福邀请赛前全力准备，争取跑出好成绩，但在此之前，我会留出两个半月的时间，纯粹练有氧，确保身体能撑得住。

What I've done to kind of safeguard myself against that is I've built in what I call refresh periods where I'm like, okay, we're gonna be really ready to go maybe at the first Stanford invite so we can get a fast five ks, But I'm going to build in this two and a half week period where I'm going to go just back to straight aerobic stuff just to make sure that we're good and can sustain it.

不过我注意到，对年轻选手——比如大学生或者刚毕业的——来说，他们还是得花点时间走传统训练路径，因为得先打好基础，才能慢慢适应全年高强度的训练，你懂吧。

That being said, what I've noticed on the younger level maybe, the college level or just out of college, is that you have to spend time almost having a little bit more of that traditional period because they have to have that foundation before we can kinda get to where they can handle that intensity year round, if that makes sense.

对。

Yeah.

这让我想到更宏观的周期，比如梅尔已经28岁了，如果看她这十年的训练，不是按赛季分大基础期、中间期和峰值期，而是她早就把底层能力一点一点打牢了。

It kinda makes me think of more of like a macro period because it makes me think, you know, Mel is 28, and so she has spent if you look at instead of by the season of a period of a a big base and then this middle area and then the peak, you look at is she's already spent ten years building the bottom of her

没错。

Right.

长期积累下来的。

Cumulatively.

所以她现在可以了，毕竟已经积累了这么多年的经验。

And so you her, like, new yeah.

她能更好地适应这种混合训练，因为她有这些年的积累。

She can do more of this blended training because she has those years under her belt.

这也解释了为什么我看到的这些例子大多来自职业运动员，而不是大学生，尤其是那些年纪稍长的职业选手。

And that also makes sense why so many of these examples I've seen are are in professionals, not necessarily collegiates, and in particular, the older professionals that are able to do this.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得你得培养一种音乐家的心态。

I think you gotta develop a musician mindset.

我总是跟带的运动员说，你们现在就是在演出。

And I always communicate to the athletes I work with, you're out gigging.

你们得去参加一场场表演。

You gotta go gig for shows.

就像有人跟你说，嘿。

Like, someone says, hey.

这儿有个空档，你可以唱你的歌了。

We got an opening here, and you can play your song.

上吧。

Go.

你来唱。

You play.

没人会专程来看演出，或者来这种小型 acoustic 场地，听你发挥得一塌糊涂。

And no one's gonna come to a concert or come to, you know, a little acoustic theater to hear you not be able to play your best.

所以我们培养了这种心态：我必须能拿出真本事。

And so we developed that mindset of, I gotta be able to kick.

就像你说的，我得先展现出状态，才能拿到机会；一旦拿到机会，就得好好利用它。

So I gotta you know, like you said, I have to show fitness to get the lane, and then once I get the lane, I gotta do something with that lane.

这是一套能年复一年持续运转的良性循环。

And you have it's a sustainable cycle that you need to be able to replicate year in and year out.

有了这种心态，你就不会去听演唱会时想：‘唉，昨天他唱得不错，今天却嗓子发炎，完全唱不出来了。’

With that mindset, you don't go to a concert and, Oh, well, they sung really well at this one, and then the next day they had laryngitis and they couldn't sing at all.

这其中确实有可重复性。

There is some repeatability there.

对职业运动员来说，这就是比赛的本质。

And that, I think for the professional athlete, that's the game.

这就是你所处的世界。

That's the world you live in.

有了这种心态，我们就明白，当达到新的稳定状态后，只要保持住，不贪心、不冒进，就能在相当长的时间里保持竞争力。

And with that mindset, we know, again, homeostasis, when you reach that new level of stasis, if you can maintain and not get too greedy and not overreach, well, yeah, you can you can have a certain degree of competitiveness for a sustained period of time.

比如丹尼尔·赫雷拉，他连续三个月，每个月都跑进四分钟大关。

I'll, you know, I'll happily point to, like, Daniel Herrera who, you know, broke sub broke four minutes for the mile on the track, you know, once every month for three months straight.

你懂的。

You know?

他连续三个月都保持着跑进四分钟的水平。

He was in that sub four fitness for three straight months.

去年他从三月到十月，几乎参加了三十场比赛。

I mean, he competed last year, you know, almost 30 times from March to October.

他没受伤，你知道的，状态很稳定。

Didn't get hurt, you know, not a lot of variant.

他一直保持着四分钟整到三分五十六秒左右的水平，或者跑一万五可以做到三分九到三分四十二。

He was just kind of in that four flat to three fifty six type mile shape, or you can put on the 15, like, three nine to three forty two.

当然，他毕竟是人，偶尔也会有发挥不好的时候，但只要签了他参赛，大家都知道能拿到什么样的成绩。

And, I mean, yeah, he'd, you know, lay some eggs here and there because he's human, but people knew they were gonna get this product when they signed him up for a race.

比如，你能不能来这儿帮墨西哥打破全国纪录？

Like, hey, can you come here and set the national record for Mexico?

你能不能来这儿试试冲击一下？

Hey, can you come here and try to take a shot?

对。

Yeah.

你能不能来这儿？

Hey, can you come here?

作为教练，作为运动员，你也得明白这项运动背后的经济逻辑。

And I think you just have to understand the economics of the sport in that regard as well as a coach and as an athlete.

我觉得关键是要有勇气意识到，你的运动员已经准备好、有能力应对了，然后敢于打破我们所有人从小被灌输的那种稳扎稳打的训练模式。

I think it's just having the courage to know too that your athlete is ready for it and capable of it, and then veering from that very comfortable pyramid base thing that that all of us have been taught and shown.

我觉得这对青少年特别有帮助。

Well, I think it's really useful for youth.

我觉得对我的年轻选手特别有价值，因为你是在培养一个还在成长中的生理个体。

I think it's very valuable for my young because you're developing a young physiological being that's still growing.

对吧？

Right?

所以如果

And so if

是的。

Yeah.

我以前说过，如果你给我一个心脏和肺部每年都在快速发育的人，我看起来就像是世界上最厉害的教练，因为那本来就是身体自然成长的结果。

You know, I've famously said before, if you give me a person where their hearts and lungs are getting bigger every year, I'm gonna look like the best coach in the world who can do anything, because that's just those things are growing rapidly.

但我认为，要想让运动员长期保持竞争力，或者长期享受这项运动，还是采用这种大金字塔式的传统方法更稳妥。

But I think that's the more prudent and traditional route to set the athlete up for sustained competitiveness or sustained enjoyment in the sport, to take that big pyramid approach.

你知道，到了顶级联赛，赛季首战就得一击致命才行。

You know, once you get to the big leagues, man, you've gotta be hitting daggers at the season opener.

就像梅尔那样。

Kinda how Mel was.

我当时就在现场。

Like, I was there.

我看了那场比赛。

I watched that race.

梅尔表现得太棒了。

Mel looked awesome.

我心里想，太好了。

I was like, yes.

终于轮到她了，我真的为她感到兴奋。

Finally, this is gonna I'm I'm excited for her, man.

她看起来简直像在另一个世界里一样。

You know, it's it's like she just looked in another world.

她当时在家。

Like, she was at home.

赛道就是她的地盘，她清楚自己要做什么，也确实做到了。

The track was her space, and she knew exactly what she was gonna do, and she got it done.

从你和她的角度看，这肯定等了很久，但终于看到成果，真的特别棒。

And, I mean, I'm sure that's a long time coming from your perspective and hers, but it was great to finally see the fruition.

你刚让我想起一件事。

You actually just reminded me of something.

不好意思。

Sorry.

你讲吧。

Oh, go ahead.

那场比赛之后，我发现自己作为教练确实有成长。刚起步的时候，运动员一比完赛，我就不停地分析、不停地讲，没完没了。

I was just thinking about I saw some evidence of my growth as a coach after that race because when I was first starting out, I used to have an athlete would have a performance, and I would talk and talk and talk and talk and talk about the performance with that.

那时候的我，说真的，也不知道自己在干嘛。

And I would I don't know.